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View Full Version : ancient J1b-F4306(xZS80) Satsurblia Late Upper Palaeolithic Caucasus



ChrisR
11-20-2015, 02:20 AM
I was able to extract the Y-chr BAM file for 13300 ybp Late Upper Palaeolithic Caucasus (Satsurblia cave, Western Georgia, sample SATP) in Jones et al 2015 (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/full/ncomms9912.html).
The data is low-coverage: when calls exist there are mostly only 1-3 reads (BAM Y-chr file 11 Mb).
Satsurblia is a full developed J (97 J-SNPs checked, 49 positive, 48 have no-calls), negative for J2 (21 SNPs checked, 12 negative, 9 no-calls) so I went on to do a quick check for J1.
J1 positive for: L255 (14937880 A->C), CTS426/PF4641/YSC307 (6745512 C->T), CTS10759 (22761824 G->A), CTS11188/PF4784 (22997977 G->T), CTS11636/PF4785 (23200045 T->C)
J1b positive for: CTS6101/PF3543 (16674560 G->A), F4306 (21492032 G->T), FGC20301/Y6337/ZS3624 (24468458 A->G), FGC20303/Y6336/ZS3620 (23650760 A->G),
J1b negative for: CTS3219/ZS80 (14738001 G->A),
So possibly this is
a) the ancestor (or a near relative of him) of all J1b-F4306 men
b) a split leading to an extinct J1b-F4306(xZS80) branch

YFull YTree v3.17 time estimates seem to support hypothesis a) with J1b formed 18400 ybp, TMRCA 10600 ybp.
J1b has Finnish (272108/YF02055), Irish (211228), Colombian (HG01253, HG01256) and an unknown origin (422638) NGS samples.
Sources: http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6304/ http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

Even more interesting now to which J subclade the 5500-5000 BC Karelian-Finno Ugric hunter gatherer near Finland (EHG, Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia, sample I0211/UzOO40) in Mathieson et al 2015 belongs to.

royking
11-20-2015, 02:27 AM
Yay! Excellent work ChrisR. Looks like Georgia was a refugium for J1. If the NE Caucasian languages covary with other J1s, then maybe we have an aboriginal NE Caucasian language group in Late UP Georgia!

Gravetto-Danubian
11-20-2015, 04:05 AM
Yay! Excellent work ChrisR. Looks like Georgia was a refugium for J1. If the NE Caucasian languages covary with other J1s, then maybe we have an aboriginal NE Caucasian language group in Late UP Georgia!

Roy
Georgia might not have been a refugium for anything, because the South Caucasus region appears to lack any discernable settlements during the peak glacial period (22-18). This suggests that the J guys came from further south - ? Northern Mesopotamia. But it's difficult to tell - the Palaeolithic in the Levant and mid east is poorly researched

paulgill
11-20-2015, 05:02 AM
Roy
Georgia might not have been a refugium for anything, because the South Caucasus region appears to lack any discernable settlements during the peak glacial period (22-18). This suggests that the J guys came from further south - ? Northern Mesopotamia. But it's difficult to tell - the Palaeolithic in the Levant and mid east is poorly researched

From within the Black Sea, Caspian Sea, Van lake and Lake Urmia area.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-20-2015, 05:13 AM
From within the Black Sea, Caspian Sea, Van lake and Lake Urmia area.

Any papers on that ?

Krefter
11-20-2015, 05:16 AM
It's important to remember the J1 and J2a in CHG belong to rare subclades.

paulgill
11-20-2015, 05:16 AM
Any papers on that ?

No papers, but why the papers only, how many papers have stood the test of time to date? I am J1-Z1853* it has many branches, but, the only its one branch L862+ is mainly found in the Arabian peninsula, mine is found in India and carries with it suname Khabra, which I believe have its roots in Eber[Heber], Hebrew or Khabur Rivers, and it certainly is an ancient surname that have survived to this day. Please look under 004. J-Z1853 Cluster, at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267/default.aspx?section=yresults.

I had proposed this to some scholars on the Armenian face book page, while they agreed but suggested it to be more to the east part of that area, closer to the Caspian Sea, but I was suggesting it to be closer to the eastern south shore of the Black sea. In the end it is only an opinion, but this paper is certainly written in the blood of Khabra Jatts.

bicicleur
11-20-2015, 07:39 AM
Roy
Georgia might not have been a refugium for anything, because the South Caucasus region appears to lack any discernable settlements during the peak glacial period (22-18). This suggests that the J guys came from further south - ? Northern Mesopotamia. But it's difficult to tell - the Palaeolithic in the Levant and mid east is poorly researched

these guys came from north of the Black Sea, which was the LGM refugium for the Eastern Epi-Gravettians
17 ka some Eastern Epi-Gravettians crossed the Caucasus or came along the eastern shores of the Black Sea

Romilius
11-20-2015, 08:12 AM
It's important to remember the J1 and J2a in CHG belong to rare subclades.

Of course, but I think that the one million dollar question is: "Are they ancestral to contemporary people that carry those signatures?".

Gravetto-Danubian
11-20-2015, 08:29 AM
these guys came from north of the Black Sea, which was the LGM refugium for the Eastern Epi-Gravettians
17 ka some Eastern Epi-Gravettians crossed the Caucasus or came along the eastern shores of the Black Sea


Maybe they did, around Moldavia and western Ukraine showed continuity during the LGM (but not further north or east - in Russia).
I'd have thought eastern Epigravettians were some form of I2 and C, but who knows ?

bicicleur
11-20-2015, 09:44 AM
Maybe they did, around Moldavia and western Ukraine showed continuity during the LGM (but not further north or east - in Russia).
I'd have thought eastern Epigravettians were some form of I2 and C, but who knows ?

there would also have been continuity in Kostenki
furthermore right after LGM people appeared on the Krim, maybe they came from northern Black Sea or the Sea of Azov which were dry land during LGM

Me too, I tought they would be I2, but as there was no proof whatsoever, I changed my mind to J now.

RCO
11-20-2015, 10:37 AM
As expected they can be from the ancient Northern Near Eastern basal J1 branches as I have been saying for years. Geneticists don't want to test the Northern Near Eastern J1 subclades still living in that region, the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia or close to the Caspian Sea and Northern Iran. Ancient types of J1 were situated to the North and East of J2 and G. Modern types of J1 in the Levant or Arabia are just only one modern and recent derived branch without basal diversity just like R1b in Ireland and now imagine if the geneticists only used M269 to explain R1b and no further detailed SNPs to understand the basal trail and resolution just like they do with the J1 phylogenetic tree where they can't understand the historical movements of the J1 haplogroup. As always geneticists don't want to research J1 basal SNPs because the truth will emerge. We need to investigate the J1 around the Caspian Sea with more SNPs and they only use P58 and DYS388-13 after years of new J1 SNPs and NGS !

Gravetto-Danubian
11-20-2015, 11:31 AM
there would also have been continuity in Kostenki
furthermore right after LGM people appeared on the Krim, maybe they came from northern Black Sea or the Sea of Azov which were dry land during LGM

Me too, I tought they would be I2, but as there was no proof whatsoever, I changed my mind to J now.

Well there is no proof either way, from Ukraine.
Demographically, the east European plain was deserted during the LGM, apart from the shoreline of Black Sea perhaps, and toward the Carpathians (Moldavia). The pre-LGM population would have been like Aurignacian Europe, IMO. The EHG Mesolithic hunters which later emerge looked loke ANE + WHG fusion. But with the finding of CHG, everything needs to be re-evaluated.

Some are even saying now there is no such thing as "ANE". It was a falsehood obscuring CHG

Agamemnon
11-20-2015, 12:13 PM
Fantastic news, so now we have two ancient J samples belonging to extremely basal branches in both J1 and J2a, that changes everything and, until proof of the contrary shows up, that makes the Caucasus J's homeland as far as I'm concerned.
Considering the fact that F1614 is found in Finland, I'm ready to bet the Karelian EHG was F1614 as well.



Yay! Excellent work ChrisR. Looks like Georgia was a refugium for J1. If the NE Caucasian languages covary with other J1s, then maybe we have an aboriginal NE Caucasian language group in Late UP Georgia!

I agree Georgia looks like a refugium for J1, though I kind of doubt this sample has anything to do with NE Caucasian languages, first off PNEC isn't that old, then we have to take into account the fact that NEC speakers don't carry vast amounts of J1-F1614.

iolalde
11-20-2015, 03:53 PM
Where did you find the bam files? I only see fastq files in the database they refer in the paper. Thanks!

bicicleur
11-20-2015, 04:03 PM
Well there is no proof either way, from Ukraine.
Demographically, the east European plain was deserted during the LGM, apart from the shoreline of Black Sea perhaps, and toward the Carpathians (Moldavia). The pre-LGM population would have been like Aurignacian Europe, IMO. The EHG Mesolithic hunters which later emerge looked loke ANE + WHG fusion. But with the finding of CHG, everything needs to be re-evaluated.

Some are even saying now there is no such thing as "ANE". It was a falsehood obscuring CHG

That's the point, before LGM Aurignacian was replaced by Gravettian. Both Kostenki and north of the Black Sea were Gravettian, but afaik there was no Gravettian south of the Caucasus before LGM.

Jean M
11-20-2015, 05:04 PM
Georgia might not have been a refugium for anything, because the South Caucasus region appears to lack any discernable settlements during the peak glacial period (22-18). This suggests that the J guys came from further south - ?

There was a forest refugium along the southern shore of the Caspian.

See http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8312.2011.01788.x/abstract

Full text: https://www.academia.edu/1295370/Palaeoclimatic_models_help_to_understand_current_d istribution_of_Caucasian_forest_species


We inferred six major forest refugia throughout western Asia: (1) Colchis; (2) western Anatolia; (3) western Taurus; (4) the upper reaches of the Tigris River; (5) the Levant; and (6) the southern Caspian basin.

6658

Figure 3. The distribution of climates suitable for the 12 forest plants and animals during the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) throughout the Caucasus and western Asia. Shade intensity indicates the number of species out of the 12 for which the LGM climate was suitable. Our data show that the Model for Interdisciplinary Research on Climate (MIROC) climatic simulation provides a more realistic pattern of the LGM climate than the Community Climate System Model (CCSM) simulation. The CCSM-based inference indicates a large refugium throughout most of the Black Sea coast (BSC) and smaller refugia in western Anatolia (WA), the southern Caspian basin (SC) and the Levant (LV). The MIROC-based inference suggests that major refugia existed in Colchis (CL), the southern Caspian basin (SC), western Anatolia (WA), the western Taurus Mountains (WT), the upper reaches of the River Tigris (TR) and the Levant (LV). Contours in the maps show the current sea surface line and political borders.

J Man
11-20-2015, 05:31 PM
Awesome stuff!

vettor
11-20-2015, 05:35 PM
It would be handy to revisit the paper in this link

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2011/09/caucasus-revisited-yunusbayev-et-al.html

the Ingush people are very high in J2

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2011/09/caucasus-revisited-yunusbayev-et-al.html

clearly it shows a high concentration of j2 in western side of the Caspian sea

J Man
11-20-2015, 05:39 PM
So now we have a Y-DNA haplogroup J1b Late Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherer and also a Y-DNA haplogroup J2a Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from the Caucasus. Very cool!

J Man
11-20-2015, 05:42 PM
I was able to extract the Y-chr BAM file for 13300 ybp Late Upper Palaeolithic Caucasus (Satsurblia cave, Western Georgia, sample SATP) in Jones et al 2015 (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/full/ncomms9912.html).
The data is low-coverage: when calls exist there are mostly only 1-3 reads (BAM Y-chr file 11 Mb).
Satsurblia is a full developed J (97 J-SNPs checked, 49 positive, 48 have no-calls), negative for J2 (21 SNPs checked, 12 negative, 9 no-calls) so I went on to do a quick check for J1.
J1 positive for: L255 (14937880 A->C), CTS426/PF4641/YSC307 (6745512 C->T), CTS10759 (22761824 G->A), CTS11188/PF4784 (22997977 G->T), CTS11636/PF4785 (23200045 T->C)
J1b positive for: CTS6101/PF3543 (16674560 G->A), F4306 (21492032 G->T), FGC20301/Y6337/ZS3624 (24468458 A->G), FGC20303/Y6336/ZS3620 (23650760 A->G),
J1b negative for: CTS3219/ZS80 (14738001 G->A),
So possibly this is
a) the ancestor (or a near relative of him) of all J1b-F4306 men
b) a split leading to an extinct J1b-F4306(xZS80) branch

YFull YTree v3.17 time estimates seem to support hypothesis a) with J1b formed 18400 ybp, TMRCA 10600 ybp.
J1b has Finnish (272108/YF02055), Irish (211228), Colombian (HG01253, HG01256) and an unknown origin (422638) NGS samples.
Sources: http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6304/ http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

Even more interesting now to which J subclade the 5500-5000 BC Karelian-Finno Ugric hunter gatherer near Finland (EHG, Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia, sample I0211/UzOO40) in Mathieson et al 2015 belongs to.

Great work! Were you able to extract the Y-DNA files for the Mesolithic Y-DNA J2a sample from Kotias Klde as well?

ChrisR
11-20-2015, 06:46 PM
I published files and data regarding the Jones et al 2015 (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/full/ncomms9912.html) J-samples analysis in this Google Drive folder:
ancient-Caucasus_J2a1b2-J1b_Jones-et-al-2015 (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B7PnxbT9P49hSmNydS0xRU1ZU2s&usp=sharing)
From the original WGS BAM file (http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERP012743) the chrY BAM file was extracted and checked with IGV Viewer (http://www.broadinstitute.org/software/igv/home) for the relevant SNP information by using the included Region Navigator (importing regions using the bed.csv files)

The low-coverage will make novel variant analysis for Satsurblia very difficult, but a more detailed analysis regarding the age comparing archaeological and genetic time estimates could be useful:

archaeological dating: 13,132–13,380 cal. BP
YFull YTree v3.17 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6304/) time estimate J1b formed 18400 ybp, TMRCA 10600 ybp, November 2015
J1-M267 (http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree) 13997 yBP Big Y mutation rate 135.24y/SNP based on the work of Iain McDonald, Mar 2015.
J1-M267 (http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree) 7760 yBP by STR marker phylogeny by Marko T. Heinilš, Apr 2014

bicicleur
11-20-2015, 07:45 PM
There was a forest refugium along the southern shore of the Caspian.

See http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8312.2011.01788.x/abstract

Full text: https://www.academia.edu/1295370/Palaeoclimatic_models_help_to_understand_current_d istribution_of_Caucasian_forest_species



6658

Figure 3. The distribution of climates suitable for the 12 forest plants and animals during the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) throughout the Caucasus and western Asia. Shade intensity indicates the number of species out of the 12 for which the LGM climate was suitable. Our data show that the Model for Interdisciplinary Research on Climate (MIROC) climatic simulation provides a more realistic pattern of the LGM climate than the Community Climate System Model (CCSM) simulation. The CCSM-based inference indicates a large refugium throughout most of the Black Sea coast (BSC) and smaller refugia in western Anatolia (WA), the southern Caspian basin (SC) and the Levant (LV). The MIROC-based inference suggests that major refugia existed in Colchis (CL), the southern Caspian basin (SC), western Anatolia (WA), the western Taurus Mountains (WT), the upper reaches of the River Tigris (TR) and the Levant (LV). Contours in the maps show the current sea surface line and political borders.

is there any sign of human occupation in these areas during LGM?
the HG prefered tundras or steppes with grazing animals over forests
only during holocene they adapted by combining fishing and hunting in forest areas

Jean M
11-20-2015, 08:41 PM
is there any sign of human occupation in these areas during LGM?

There are cave sites in the mountains facing the southern end of Caspian Sea. The use of Hotu and Belt Caves does not date back to the height of the LGM, on known dates, but these were excavated a long time ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huto_and_Kamarband_Caves


the HG preferred tundras or steppes with grazing animals over forests

The location of hunter-gatherer groups typically varied by season. To quote myself:


In a belt to the north of the forested areas, steppe offered rich summer grazing for animal herds. Some hunter-gatherer bands developed a pattern of wintering in the sheltered valleys of Lower Austria and Moravia, but moving 170 km (105 miles) or more into the steppe in summer, to follow the herds. A similar pattern of summer hunting on the steppe and tundra is seen right across Siberia. Forested areas around the Black and Caspian Seas may have provided winter refuges for some of these hunters.

Jean M
11-20-2015, 08:57 PM
A quick Google and I find that Michael W. Gregg, Department of Anthropology, St. Francis Xavier University, Antigonish Nova Scotia, has been taking an interest in the caves in Northern Iran, but for a reason (steppe pottery) that could mean that R1b was there, rather than J2a. http://www.michaelwgregg.com/ArchSci/Welcome.html

There is a fuller presentation in pdf at http://archaeology.org.az/pdf/AASIA&E%20presentation7.pdf

Jean M
11-20-2015, 09:01 PM
There are cave sites in the mountains facing the southern end of Caspian Sea. The use of Hotu and Belt Caves does not date back to the height of the LGM, on known dates

This cave is more promising though. Komisham - 12 millennium B.C.
https://www.academia.edu/820260/The_faunal_remains_of_Komishan._an_epipaleolithic_ settlement_in_Northern_Iran

bicicleur
11-20-2015, 09:37 PM
There are cave sites in the mountains facing the southern end of Caspian Sea. The use of Hotu and Belt Caves does not date back to the height of the LGM, on known dates, but these were excavated a long time ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huto_and_Kamarband_Caves



The location of hunter-gatherer groups typically varied by season. To quote myself:

the situation is far from clear
I was thinking of this area north of the Hindu Kush as LGM refuge for R

http://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultural/09476/afgh05-009.html

but very poorly documented

I supose north Iran/Afghanistan hasn't properly been searched yet

and there is another question : what was the level/extent of the Caspian Sea during LGM?

6659

we know more or less the extent but we don't know the exact dating

bicicleur
11-20-2015, 09:47 PM
the picture is far from clear

I had the area north of the Hindu Kush in mind as LGM refugee for R

http://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultural/09476/afgh05-009.html

but I supose northern Iran/Afghanistan hasn't been properly searched yet

and then there is the level/extent of the Caspian Sea which is more or less known, but the exact dating isn't known

6660

Jean M
11-20-2015, 09:59 PM
I was thinking of this area north of the Hindu Kush as LGM refuge for R

I expect that the refuge for R was in the Altai. People found cover there in coniferous forest refuges around the upper reaches of the Yenisei river valley, sheltered between the Altai and Sayan Mountains. We do have ANE from man who lived about 17,000 years ago at Afontova Gora, remember.

In referring to possible R1b in the cave in the south Caspian, I was not suggesting that this cave was an LGM refuge for R1b, but that R1b could have arrived there in the Mesolithic with the first pottery, which came from the Lake Baikal and Altai regions. In short I am reverting to a previous notion of mine that people crossed the Caspian from North to South and back again seasonally in the Mesolithic. But in this revised model, only R1b-V88 would join the Neolithic on the south, not the whole of R1b, as I once proposed.

alan
11-20-2015, 10:38 PM
Certainly the AG2 guy shows that ANE hung about in the general south-central Siberia area both sides of the LGM

Gravetto-Danubian
11-21-2015, 01:05 AM
I expect that the refuge for R was in the Altai. People found cover there in coniferous forest refuges around the upper reaches of the Yenisei river valley, sheltered between the Altai and Sayan Mountains. We do have ANE from man who lived about 17,000 years ago at Afontova Gora, remember.

I'd hazard to guess a whole series of shelters and microclimates from the Sayan extending southwest toward the Tien Shan and Hindu Kush foothills.

Much of Central Asia was a cold desert, but it's southern fringes might have been oases as they were in the bronze ages and today.

But as Bicecleur pointed out; the Palaeolithic in near east and central Asia is one of the poorest studied fields


In referring to possible R1b in the cave in the south Caspian, I was not suggesting that this cave was an LGM refuge for R1b, but that R1b could have arrived there in the Mesolithic with the first pottery, which came from the Lake Baikal and Altai regions. In short I am reverting to a previous notion of mine that people crossed the Caspian from North to South and back again seasonally in the Mesolithic. But in this revised model, only R1b-V88 would join the Neolithic on the south, not the whole of R1b, as I once proposed.

IIRC, the oriental type pottery which reached eastern Europe and central Asia (independently of the Near Eastern traditions) had its origins even further east than the Altai - Japan and Korea. The Altai might have been a thorough for its spread further west.

Agamemnon
11-21-2015, 02:08 AM
While I appreciate the tone of this discussion, keep in mind that this isn't the most appropriate place to discuss R1b's history, I think there's more than enough space in the forum's R1b section for that :P

bicicleur
11-21-2015, 09:05 AM
Certainly the AG2 guy shows that ANE hung about in the general south-central Siberia area both sides of the LGM

AG2 has low coverage, but it has been tentatively typed as Q1a1a
that would fit with Sumnagin culture being ancestral to Zhokov Islanders, Saqqaq and Inuit

Jean M
11-21-2015, 12:41 PM
While I appreciate the tone of this discussion, keep in mind that this isn't the most appropriate place to discuss R1b's history, I think there's more than enough space in the forum's R1b section for that :P

My apologies. I have started a thread on the topic over here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5864-Pottery-the-LGM-refuge-of-R-and-Mesolithic-R1b-cross-Caspian-theory&p=121830#post121830

Shamash
11-26-2015, 01:02 AM
The Satsurblia J-F4306(xZS80) sample has been added to the most recent J1 tree by Victar:

http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

TMRCA with F4306+/F1614+/ZS80+ samples ~17919yBP

quxuq
11-26-2015, 07:21 PM
Thank you Chris, this news exited me so much, that I finally ordered big Y. :) Hopefully there will be J1b in ISOGG 2016 tree. It's a lonely feeling, to be in a rare haplogroup. :)

quxuq
01-22-2016, 06:46 PM
I uploaded my bamfile to yfull. The results are ready. I'm YF04860 .
http://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/

Meastn
05-13-2016, 07:37 AM
So possibly this is
a) the ancestor (or a near relative of him) of all J1b-F4306 men
b) a split leading to an extinct J1b-F4306(xZS80) branch

Dear Chris,

Great to hear. Since recently I turned out to be living member of F4306, I am unable to find others. It would be great to hear more.

RCO
05-14-2016, 06:32 PM
Hello, where are you from ? Have you tested with FTDNA ?

Meastn
05-14-2016, 08:34 PM
Hi,
I'm from blacksea region of Turkey. (Trabzon province). I was tested with Geno 2.0 of NGeographic and transferred my results to FTDNA. By the way the results show that I'm 100 % j-f4306, which I found quite interesting. Both caucasus and the anatolian region are quite rich in gene pool and having a pure dna structure seems quite odd. Not to mention that despite all my search over the internet I couldn't find anyother member. Only that 13.000 year old guy from the satsurblia cave. what do you think?

RCO
05-15-2016, 12:28 AM
Yes, very interesting. Have you tested F1614 ? In the future you need a full sequence test like FGC or Big Y to discover your SNPs.

Agamemnon
05-15-2016, 01:31 AM
Hi,
I'm from blacksea region of Turkey. (Trabzon province). I was tested with Geno 2.0 of NGeographic and transferred my results to FTDNA. By the way the results show that I'm 100 % j-f4306, which I found quite interesting. Both caucasus and the anatolian region are quite rich in gene pool and having a pure dna structure seems quite odd. Not to mention that despite all my search over the internet I couldn't find anyother member. Only that 13.000 year old guy from the satsurblia cave. what do you think?

Satsurblia is FGC42175, this branch is parallel to F1614 and both have roughly similar TMRCA estimates (~14,000 yBP). I can only reiterate what RCO said, namely that you should either go for Big Y or test with FGC. The fact that you come from Trabzon province is quite interesting, this certainly suggests that J1 is deeply rooted in the Transcaucasus/Eastern Anatolia at least since the epipaleolithic era if not earlier than that.

Meastn
05-15-2016, 05:01 PM
More interesting is that my mtDna was marked j1c17, as far as I understand, seems to be very rare also. My parents are 1st degree cousins, children of two brothers (uncles).

RmayNV
06-06-2016, 04:41 AM
Meastn,
I'm new to this forum as of today but have been reading various sections and see that RCO and Agamemnon are commenting in this thread and helped with some earlier posts of mine. You are not alone as a living member of F4306 (I'm J1-F3547, and there are a few others as well who have been tested at FTDNA). It appears that we need a lot more testing from your part of the world, especially from locations east including northern Iran and up through the Caucasus according to RCO, to help sort out our history. Can you share your kit number at FTDNA if you have been tested there? Maybe we can get a group of us organized from different areas (there is someone from Finland also testing J1-F3547 (which is under F4306 and F1614) at FTDNA) to get BAM files to Yfull and help the cause.
Randy

Jean M
06-06-2016, 09:26 AM
By the way the results show that I'm 100 % j-f4306, which I found quite interesting. Both caucasus and the anatolian region are quite rich in gene pool and having a pure dna structure seems quite odd.

J-F4306 is your Y-DNA haplogroup. It does not represent 100% of your DNA. It is a small part of your DNA. Each man has just one Y-DNA haplogroup, passed down his direct male line of descent from the first man in that line to have all the same mutations as himself.

Your direct male line (father to paternal grandfather to the father of that grandfather etc) is one of many, many lineages that you have. In those other lineages could be many other Y-DNA haplogroups. But you cannot find them by just testing yourself. To find out any of them, you would have to test your mother's father or brother, your father's mother's brother, or your male cousins descended in direct male line from a common ancestor with yourself.

9664
Click to enlarge, or go to https://www.igenea.com/en/y-chromosome

Meastn
08-16-2016, 06:40 PM
Hi Randy,
My FTDNA kit number is N187449. During that time I tested for Z2223 and get a negative result. Than I ordered a F3547 and hoping to get a result in a month or so? YFull is still much expensive to order. Probably I'll wait another year. At the mean time we might make comparisons on gedmatch.

Fatherland
08-17-2016, 05:18 PM
This is strong news for J1b people.

Meastn
09-04-2016, 12:00 PM
Hi Randy,
My FTDNA kit number is N187449. During that time I tested for Z2223 and get a negative result. Than I ordered a F3547 and hoping to get a result in a month or so? YFull is still much expensive to order. Probably I'll wait another year. At the mean time we might make comparisons on gedmatch.

Interestingly my test for F3547 also returned as negative. Not being able to finance BigY for now it seems that I'm in the dark in the moment.

If it is not Z2223 or F3547 I don't know of a third branch. May be a new one, under the F3406-> F3249? Any thoughts?

Meastn
12-09-2016, 01:06 PM
So possibly this is
a) the ancestor (or a near relative of him) of all J1b-F4306 men
b) a split leading to an extinct J1b-F4306(xZS80) branch

Chris, any chance that somebody has uploaded Satsurblia sample to gedmatch. Since I'm also a f-4306 I want to have a one-to-one comparison with it.