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View Full Version : Pottery, the LGM refuge of R and Mesolithic R1b cross-Caspian theory



Jean M
11-21-2015, 12:40 PM
Over on another thread, where it didn't belong (sorry!), I mentioned that pre-Neolithic pottery has been found in one of the caves in Northern Iran that face onto the southern Caspian Sea. This has encouraged me to revive an old theory in modified form.

The first pottery in the world was made in the Far East. The earliest sherds so far discovered are from the Xianrendong Cave in China, radiocarbon-dated as between 20,000 and 19,000 years old. Here shards from another early pot from Yuchanyan Cave (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuchanyan_Cave ), fitted together in a reconstruction of the form of the pot:

6664

Pottery gradually spread in several directions, including westwards into Siberia around Lake Baikal. It was the Lake Baikal type of pottery that moved further west to become the first pottery to enter Europe. See the dispersal map below:

6662

The first type of European pottery was that found in the Samara region of Russia with hunter-gatherers:
6663

We now know that some of these pottery-making hunter-gatherers carried R1b. Now I find that Michael W. Gregg, Department of Anthropology, St. Francis Xavier University, Antigonish Nova Scotia, has been taking an interest in the Hotu and Belt caves in Northern Iran, in which he has found the same type of pottery. http://www.michaelwgregg.com/ArchSci/Welcome.html

6665

So I am reverting to a previous notion of mine that people crossed the Caspian from North to South and back again seasonally in the Mesolithic. But in this revised model, only R1b-V88 would join the Neolithic on the south, not the whole of R1b, as I once proposed.

I expect that the refuge for R was in the Altai. People found cover there in coniferous forest refuges around the upper reaches of the Yenisei river valley, sheltered between the Altai and Sayan Mountains. We do have ANE from man who lived about 17,000 years ago at Afontova Gora.

rozenfeld
11-21-2015, 12:53 PM
We now know that some of these pottery-making hunter-gatherers carried R1b. Now I find that Michael W. Gregg, Department of Anthropology, St. Francis Xavier University, Antigonish Nova Scotia, has been taking an interest in the Hotu and Belt caves in Northern Iran, in which he has found the same type of pottery. http://www.michaelwgregg.com/ArchSci/Welcome.html


The same caves are listed at Pinhasi's group website (https://sites.google.com/site/pinhasierc/home/samples): Hotu Cave, Belt Cave, Iran, EN, MES, 6

Coincidence? :)

bicicleur
11-21-2015, 01:23 PM
The far east pottery were cooking vessels.
I suspect the vessels were made by women, and also women did the cooking.
Young women probably often switched tribes to marry a husband in another tirbe. Men probably didn't.
We see East-Siberian mtDNA (C,Z) arrive in mesolithic Karelia as early as 7.5 ka. ? earlier than pottery itself ?
The earliest appearance of East-Siberian Y DNA , N1c is Serteya, 4.5 ka.
I mean, pottery could have dispersed without dispersal of Y-DNA.

PS : pottery may never have been invented in the neolithis Middle East, it may have arrived from the south Caspian through Anatolia?

bicicleur
11-21-2015, 01:33 PM
Something else then : how do you see the dispersal of R2?
R1 and R2 should have split in 2 different directions from the Altaļ mountains then?

alan
11-21-2015, 01:38 PM
Over on another thread, where it didn't belong (sorry!), I mentioned that pre-Neolithic pottery has been found in one of the caves in Northern Iran that face onto the southern Caspian Sea. This has encouraged me to revive an old theory in modified form.

The first pottery in the world was made in the Far East. The earliest sherds so far discovered are from the Xianrendong Cave in China, radiocarbon-dated as between 20,000 and 19,000 years old. Here shards from another early pot from Yuchanyan Cave (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuchanyan_Cave ), fitted together in a reconstruction of the form of the pot:

6664

Pottery gradually spread in several directions, including westwards into Siberia around Lake Baikal. It was the Lake Baikal type of pottery that moved further west to become the first pottery to enter Europe. See the dispersal map below:

6662

The first type of European pottery was that found in the Samara region of Russia with hunter-gatherers:
6663

We now know that some of these pottery-making hunter-gatherers carried R1b. Now I find that Michael W. Gregg, Department of Anthropology, St. Francis Xavier University, Antigonish Nova Scotia, has been taking an interest in the Hotu and Belt caves in Northern Iran, in which he has found the same type of pottery. http://www.michaelwgregg.com/ArchSci/Welcome.html

6665

So I am reverting to a previous notion of mine that people crossed the Caspian from North to South and back again seasonally in the Mesolithic. But in this revised model, only R1b-V88 would join the Neolithic on the south, not the whole of R1b, as I once proposed.

I expect that the refuge for R was in the Altai. People found cover there in coniferous forest refuges around the upper reaches of the Yenisei river valley, sheltered between the Altai and Sayan Mountains. We do have ANE from man who lived about 17,000 years ago at Afontova Gora.

I agree with that outline. It seems that ANE survived the LGM on the southern fringes of south-central Siberia is refugium in the areas you mention. Ancient DNA shows thisAnother thing I read was that the first phase of Elshanka pottery in Samara resembles east Caspian pottery. So perhaps the north, east and south shore all had some similar input from the east. Cant recall the exact date - 5500BC?? This kind of pottery is the second potential signal from Siberia - the other of course being the pressure flaked microblades which spread several thousand years earlier at the very start fo the Mesolithic. Off the top of my head I cannot recall if we have hunter yDNA from eastern or north-east Europe that post-dates the microblades but pre-dates the pointed based pottery i.e c. 9500-7500BC (depending on location) and c. 5500BC. What was the date of the Karela R1a guy?

alan
11-21-2015, 01:55 PM
Something else then : how do you see the dispersal of R2?
R1 and R2 should have split in 2 different directions from the Altaļ mountains then?

It seems almost certain that R originated in south-central Siberia. So I suppose R2 must have been part of the same culture. The R Mal'ta boy dated to 22000BC by which time R was already a significant age (30000BC?) and it is also true that Mal'ta boy's culture the middle upper palaeolithic of the region existed c. 30000-22000BC. So it seems to me R was likely contained within that culture. The LGM hit that culture badly with Mal'ta boy the only RC date after 25000BC so it was struggling by then. Also by the time Mal'ta boy lived it would appear that it was impossible to travel east through the Stans which were cold desert.

So IMO R2 or the line leading to it had to either have escaped south as the LGM was just starting around 25000BC or it would have had to wait until post-LGM times to be able to slip into south Asia. Now I have looked to see if there is any sign of Mal'ta boys type of pre/early LGM culture heading west towards the Caspian or south into south-central Asia but I certainly couldnt see any evidence. If there was a refugium with Siberian related material in the mountains of inner Asia areas like Afghanistan during the LGM I havent read about it or it hasnt been found. If it was post-LGM then the signals from Siberia would be pressure flaked microblades or pointed pottery several thousand years later. I am not aware of evidence of either penetrating into the Indian subcontinent in the late Palaeolithic of Mesolithic.

So, the best I can do at the moment is an idea that that R2 might have spread among one of the pressure microblade or pointed pot groups who spread west through Siberia in the Mesolithic but in the R2 case the subset perhaps halted in the Stans area and finally got incorporated in the farming wave that headed into the Indian subcontinent.

Jean M
11-21-2015, 02:52 PM
The far east pottery were cooking vessels.

That is true. They were so shaped that heat from the fire was evenly distributed.


I suspect the vessels were made by women, and also women did the cooking. Young women probably often switched tribes to marry a husband in another tribe....I mean, pottery could have dispersed without dispersal of Y-DNA.

The pattern among hunter-gatherers was to out-breed, which would be beneficial genetically. A hunter-gatherer band was mobile, covering a wide area. But occasionally one band would encounter another. Sometimes this might happen as they came together at a particular time of year. But I imagine that the movement of pottery westwards was the result of climate change. As the climate warmed, the cold-adapted animals that were hunted on the steppe moved northwards. Some hunters followed them. So this would be complete bands moving. This would explain the arrival of both pottery (by 7000 BC) and Y-DNA R1b in Samara. Pottery moved north to the Baltic and Scandinavia by about 5500 BC.


We see East-Siberian mtDNA (C,Z) arrive in mesolithic Karelia as early as 7.5 ka. ? earlier than pottery itself ?

About the same time I think.


The earliest appearance of East-Siberian Y DNA , N1c is Serteya, 4.5 ka.

I had assumed that N1c lived out the LGM in the Altai, but it does look as though it arrived later than R, moving north in the Mesolithic and probably overlapping with R sufficiently for language contact, before R drifted away westward. N1c was a later arrival in Europe, it seems.


pottery may never have been invented in the neolithic Middle East, it may have arrived from the south Caspian through Anatolia?

Some have suggested this. I remain neutral on whether any of the early pottery reached the heart of the Neolithic. All I will say is that Near Eastern Neolithic pottery was completely different, and that there is a lot of evidence of an experimental stage before it emerged fully-formed. So I assume that it was an independent invention.

Jean M
11-21-2015, 03:41 PM
Another thing I read was that the first phase of Elshanka pottery in Samara resembles east Caspian pottery. So perhaps the north, east and south shore all had some similar input from the east.

That indeed is shown on the dispersal map above, but it is not specific about locations. Below is a better one, with locations and dates:

6671

Jean M
11-21-2015, 03:44 PM
Another thing I read was that the first phase of Elshanka pottery in Samara resembles east Caspian pottery. So perhaps the north, east and south shore all had some similar input from the east.

That indeed is shown on the dispersal map above, but it is not specific about locations. Below is a better one, with locations and dates:

6671

There are two locations on the east side of the southern Caspian:

The most southerly is coloured blue-green: 7,500-7,000 BP with trail of the same colour eastwards, which does rather suggest a separate trail from the Asian steppe.
The other is blue: 6,999-6,500 BP.

bicicleur
11-21-2015, 07:36 PM
it looks like pottery spread through southern Siberia - the steppe belt - not the forests in the north
David Anthony says pottery spread through the Pontic Steppe 8.2 ka, that would be the green trail, which seems to stop in the Pontic Steppe
the blue trail seems to spread all over Europe (also in the forests north of the neolithic farmers) and along the southern rim of the Central-Asian desert ; there is a strange yellow dot though, north of the Hindu Kush

bicicleur
11-21-2015, 07:48 PM
I had assumed that N1c lived out the LGM in the Altai, but it does look as though it arrived later than R, moving north in the Mesolithic and probably overlapping with R sufficiently for language contact, before R drifted away westward. N1c was a later arrival in Europe, it seems.


N1b is Chinese and Vietnamese
N1c is Siberian
according to YFull they split 18 ka, which is after LGM
my asumption is they survived LGM somewhere near Manchuria and N1c brought the pottery west starting 13 ka

bicicleur
11-21-2015, 07:55 PM
So IMO R2 or the line leading to it had to either have escaped south as the LGM was just starting around 25000BC or it would have had to wait until post-LGM times to be able to slip into south Asia. Now I have looked to see if there is any sign of Mal'ta boys type of pre/early LGM culture heading west towards the Caspian or south into south-central Asia but I certainly couldnt see any evidence. If there was a refugium with Siberian related material in the mountains of inner Asia areas like Afghanistan during the LGM I havent read about it or it hasnt been found. If it was post-LGM then the signals from Siberia would be pressure flaked microblades or pointed pottery several thousand years later. I am not aware of evidence of either penetrating into the Indian subcontinent in the late Palaeolithic of Mesolithic.


this is all I have :

http://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultural/09476/afgh05-009.html

it isn't much and it doesn't look like the area will be researched soon

can you provide me with some links re the spread of pressure microblades (made from wedgeshaped cores I supose) ?

Gravetto-Danubian
11-21-2015, 11:02 PM
It seems almost certain that R originated in south-central Siberia.

My ! What what is this "certainty" based on ? :)

Especially given the absolute lack of even traditional archaeological studies in Palaeolithic central Asia (sensu latu). People keep harping on about Mal'ta with an sense of obliviousness to the fact that he was an extinct lineage, and the last remnant population in Siberia. Granted, the metpopulation from which he derived continued, but this needn't have been in south Siberia. It could have been anywhere further south, or southwest, to be precise..

The fact that Afantova Gora looks MA-1 like doesn't equate with population/ settlement continuity in Siberia. It is more parasiminously explained as a repopulation of more northerly extent from a southern refugium. Granted this refuge could have been somewhere in Transbaikalia, but I wouldn't be surprised if a whole series of refuges didn't exist - from the Altai southwest to the southern -Stans, to Indus valley and thence southern Caspian littoral - as isolated but interconnected 'pockets'.

Whatever the case, looking at modern phylogeny, the 'core' R regions looks like southern Central Asia, not Siberia (in the absence of more aDNA from the region).


So it seems to me R was likely contained within that culture. The LGM hit that culture badly with Mal'ta boy the only RC date after 25000BC so it was struggling by then. Also by the time Mal'ta boy lived it would appear that it was impossible to travel east through the Stans which were cold desert.

What about the southern most-fringes of it, the foothills, where the oases were located in Bronze Age times, and today ?


So IMO R2 or the line leading to it had to either have escaped south as the LGM was just starting around 25000BC or it would have had to wait until post-LGM times to be able to slip into south Asia. Now I have looked to see if there is any sign of Mal'ta boys type of pre/early LGM culture heading west towards the Caspian or south into south-central Asia but I certainly couldnt see any evidence.

Yes because Mal'ta is an extinct line, and of an extinct industry


If there was a refugium with Siberian related material in the mountains of inner Asia areas like Afghanistan during the LGM I havent read about it or it hasnt been found.

It will never be found until it begins to be researched. But for some reason, field trips to Afghanistan aren't very popular at the moment :)


If it was post-LGM then the signals from Siberia would be pressure flaked microblades or pointed pottery several thousand years later.

I agree this is a valid vector, but I also heed Bicecleur's remarks that such eastern innovations coul dhave been mediated throught women, or simply as a cultural diffusion. And contrary to what Russian scholars claim, such innovations didn't begin in the Russian Altai, but much further east - in areas which have nothing to do with haplogroup R.

RCO
11-22-2015, 12:37 AM
R1b in Iran looks like to be derived from the West, R1b -L23 from Armenia and Eastern Anatolia arriving only in Gilan because there's a very small frequency of R1b in Mazandaran. R1b L-23 is only 6000 ybp, so that's a relatively young clade not related to the Mesolithic. Only J1 and J2 are frequent and old enough to be native to the Southern Caspian Shores.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

J Man
11-22-2015, 01:02 AM
R1b in Iran looks like to be derived from the West, R1b -L23 from Armenia and Eastern Anatolia arriving only in Gilan because there's a very small frequency of R1b in Mazandaran. R1b L-23 is only 6000 ybp, so that's a relatively young clade not related to the Mesolithic. Only J1 and J2 are frequent and old enough to be native to the Southern Caspian Shores.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

Yes indeed there are some very old J1 and J2a clades in the Caspian area.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-22-2015, 01:40 AM
R1b in Iran looks like to be derived from the West, R1b -L23 from Armenia and Eastern Anatolia arriving only in Gilan because there's a very small frequency of R1b in Mazandaran. R1b L-23 is only 6000 ybp, so that's a relatively young clade not related to the Mesolithic. Only J1 and J2 are frequent and old enough to be native to the Southern Caspian Shores.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

Good link. Is that from the Grugni paper ?

But I think we need to consider separately the issues of modern L23 in Iran to the origins of Palaeolithic R1*. The Holocene desertification of central Asia would have catalyzed significant demographic changes. Even into the Copper - Iron Ages, northern Iran witnessed significant demographic and cultural flux.

Whatever the case, one notes the presence of M343*, M73*, M269* in Iran. Any other areas where such a mix occurs ?
I don't think we can find any specific region or population group which has a particularly high diversity of R1b clades.

Silesian
11-22-2015, 01:54 AM
Good link. Is that from the Grugni paper ? I don't think we can find any specific region or population group which has a particularly high diversity of R1b clades.

EHG+CHG region
M343*, M73*, M269*
Yamnaya http://whyfiles.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/map_yamnaya2.jpg
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background


That indeed is shown on the dispersal map above, but it is not specific about locations. Below is a better one, with locations and dates:

6671

Two green dots centered slightly to the east of Eastern Yamnaya boundary [Samara 8K+/-][elshanka culture- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1563011011000663. Close to Yekaterinburg- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigir_Idol 11k BP+/-
http://www.proza.ru/2010/12/22/1360 http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/prehistoric/kapova-cave-paintings.htm[/url] 14kB.P+/-

+

Western Siberia = 57%+/->Mansi -modern day population
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/18/029421.full.pdf
Western Siberians Mansi share even more alleles with ANE (MA-1,AG-2)

Gravetto-Danubian
11-22-2015, 03:28 AM
EHG+CHG region
M343*, M73*, M269*
Yamnaya http://whyfiles.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/map_yamnaya2.jpg
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background



Two green dots centered slightly to the east of Eastern Yamnaya boundary [Samara 8K+/-][elshanka culture- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1563011011000663. Close to Yekaterinburg- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigir_Idol 11k BP+/-
http://www.proza.ru/2010/12/22/1360 http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/prehistoric/kapova-cave-paintings.htm[/url] 14kB.P+/-

+

Western Siberia = 57%+/->Mansi -modern day population
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/18/029421.full.pdf
Western Siberians Mansi share even more alleles with ANE (MA-1,AG-2)

I think it'll turn out that the newest samples from Palaeolithic Georgia are but the westernmost extent of a CHG met-population

I wonder it R1b and J groups are to be mutually found there ?

Silesian
11-22-2015, 04:00 AM
I think it'll turn out that the newest samples from Palaeolithic Georgia are but the westernmost extent of a CHG met-population

I wonder it R1b and J groups are to be mutually found there ?
Draw two parallel lines, one above Black Sea other below Caspian Extend them to Kygryzstan, The regions like Jawzjan-Pakistan Kygryz. Quite variant rich.
Hindu-Kush+Iran
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3799995/ figure S7

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041252
Central Asia Y-chromosome tree
R2*-R*-Q*......

Modern day Georgian project :M343+, P25+, P297-, V88-, M269-, M18-, M335-, M73-
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Georgia?iframe=ysnp probably not to far from CHG samples.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-22-2015, 04:30 AM
Draw two parallel lines, one above Black Sea other below Caspian Extend them to Kygryzstan, The regions like Jawzjan-Pakistan Kygryz. Quite variant rich.
Hindu-Kush+Iran
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3799995/ figure S7

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041252
Central Asia Y-chromosome tree
R2*-R*-Q*......

Modern day Georgian project :M343+, P25+, P297-, V88-, M269-, M18-, M335-, M73-
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Georgia?iframe=ysnp probably not to far from CHG samples.

Thanks my friend .
I know it does in the modern world, but was pondering if that'll also be the case in upcoming aDNA samples from the Mesolithic south caspian and pre-Bronze age Indus ;)

RCO
11-22-2015, 10:56 AM
Good link. Is that from the Grugni paper ?

But I think we need to consider separately the issues of modern L23 in Iran to the origins of Palaeolithic R1*. The Holocene desertification of central Asia would have catalyzed significant demographic changes. Even into the Copper - Iron Ages, northern Iran witnessed significant demographic and cultural flux.

Whatever the case, one notes the presence of M343*, M73*, M269* in Iran. Any other areas where such a mix occurs ?
I don't think we can find any specific region or population group which has a particularly high diversity of R1b clades.

Yes, after three years and after NGS we still don't have any good article about basal SNPs in Iran from any haplogroup ! In the J and J1 haplogroup that's a scandal !
2012. Viola Grugni et al. Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians
PLoS ONE 7(7): e41252. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0041252
http://dienekes.blogspot.com.br/2012/07/huge-study-on-y-chromosome-variation-in.html

alan
11-22-2015, 01:05 PM
That indeed is shown on the dispersal map above, but it is not specific about locations. Below is a better one, with locations and dates:

6671

There are two locations on the east side of the southern Caspian:

The most southerly is coloured blue-green: 7,500-7,000 BP with trail of the same colour eastwards, which does rather suggest a separate trail from the Asian steppe.
The other is blue: 6,999-6,500 BP.


Agreed. It looks like there were two or three streams. One was pretty far north, one sort of at steppes latitude and another further south in the Stans etc. How they related to each other is not totally clear but that excellent map you posted certainly gives the big picture. It is a pretty nice cline so only the most ardent anti-migrationist would use the variation and innovations within this pottery type to dismiss it as simply a spread of ideas. IMO there was not the social structure in the Mesolithic for ideas to spread without some geneflow.

alan
11-22-2015, 01:19 PM
I think it'll turn out that the newest samples from Palaeolithic Georgia are but the westernmost extent of a CHG met-population

I wonder it R1b and J groups are to be mutually found there ?

I think if you look at the Palaeolithic around Georgia and Armenia the dominant influence is Gravettian and this area recieved a separate proto-Gravettian branch that headed straight there from SW Asian Ahmerian c. 3800BC. It still looks Gravettian in this zone descended right to the Mesolithic. They may have been shunted about by climate changes through the glacial period but perhaps not far.

So some of the number crunchers on Eurogenes right now who are saying CHG is actually a branch equally related to WHG, ANE, ENF etc seem to fit better to the archaeology IMO. I recall a paper saying some sort of proto-Gravettian headed direct to the Caucasus earlier than Europe - c. 38000BC which is only slightly later than the European Aurignacian and far earlier than the European Gravettian.

That is fairly early in the peopling of Europe and not long before the Aurignacian. As all of these cultures derive from what was the Ahmarian of the Levant area we are talking about differences in time rather than origin point. My suspicion is that something akin to WHG only developed first in the north Levant/Turkey in the period after the Aurginacian and the very early Asian proto-Gravettian wave to the Caucasus on the one hand and the later Gravettian wave direct into Europe. Those seem to bookend the development of WHG type populations. I believe WHG probably originated at the extreme west end of Asia near the east Med. after 30000BC.

Jean M
11-22-2015, 01:20 PM
Two green dots centered slightly to the east of Eastern Yamnaya boundary [Samara 8K+/-][elshanka culture- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1563011011000663.

Yes I mentioned in the original post that the earliest pottery to reach Europe was that found in the Samara region of Russia with hunter-gatherers. That is the Elshanka Culture. It is called Neolithic by the Russians, as they use the presence of pottery as the signal of the Neolithic - confusing to the rest of us.

alan
11-22-2015, 01:34 PM
Draw two parallel lines, one above Black Sea other below Caspian Extend them to Kygryzstan, The regions like Jawzjan-Pakistan Kygryz. Quite variant rich.
Hindu-Kush+Iran
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3799995/ figure S7

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041252
Central Asia Y-chromosome tree
R2*-R*-Q*......

Modern day Georgian project :M343+, P25+, P297-, V88-, M269-, M18-, M335-, M73-
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Georgia?iframe=ysnp probably not to far from CHG samples.

if that is true its a Mesolithic thing not Palaeolithic because there is a huge distinction between the origins of the Palaeolithic groups. For example the Georgian and Armenian areas clearly have a Gravettian flavour and indeed the Caucasus does have a very early Gravettian presence c 3800BC that pre-dates any European Gravettian by a very long time. As far as I know the Zarzians of the Zagros are seen as being of ultimately local Aurignacian origin.

Further east there is no Gravettian or Aurignacian. From at least the more eastern Stans, through Altai to Baikal, Mongolia and NW China the cultures are very different from those in Europe and anywhere is SW or south-central Asia from at least 43000BC to 10000BC. The last commonality between SW Asia and that area I just described to the east probably is as far back as the Emiran c. 45000BC. It then had a completely different trajectory from the rest of Eurasia for the next 35000 years because there was no Aurignacian or Gravettian waves into those areas. Archaeology would tend to suggest the Caucasus should be not too far from Aurignacian basal but marginally closer to Europe through the shared Gravettian Ahmarian links and somewhat more distant from Siberia. However the separation of the Siberian early upper palaeolithic, the Aurignacian and the very early Caucasus proto-Gravettian all happened about 45-38000BC so they may have not been hugely distinct way back then until separation took its toll.

Also most of the area if you draw a line as suggested above from the top and bottom of the Caspian and project eastwards towards Altai etc was a cold desert during the LGM and indeed there is very little evidence for settlement for a long period after. So its hard to see any commonality stretching from the Caucasus through the Stans in the Palaeolithic and anyway.

I think you only see contact (apparently moving in an east to west direction) between those zones again in the post-Younger Dryas phase (basically the terminal palaeolithic/start of Mesolithic) when you see pressure flaked microblades spreading west.

As the older CHG pre-dates this, I cannot see how there can be a widespread CHG group spreading way to the east of the Caucasus.

alan
11-22-2015, 01:51 PM
Yes I mentioned in the original post that the earliest pottery to reach Europe was that found in the Samara region of Russia with hunter-gatherers. That is the Elshanka Culture. It is called Neolithic by the Russians, as they use the presence of pottery as the signal of the Neolithic - confusing to the rest of us.

One paper says the earliest phase of Elshanka is closest physically to east Caspian. So, that is interesting. Later Elshanka is apparently more linked to the north Caspian shore/lower Volga area. The Samara hunter lived in the 2nd phase so its impossible unfortunately to infer too much. If he had lived a few centuries earlier then the east Caspian pottery link would be very strong evidence of an origin on that sort of trajectory. It still looks possible but just is uncertain.

As I have often said, this pottery looks like a 2nd wave from the east after the 1st with the pressure flaked microblades. The problem with ancient DNA to date is that I dont think we have any hunter DNA that falls after the pressure microblades arrival c. 9500-8000BC on the one one hand and the pointed pottery arrival 2-3 thousand years later. So, its not possible to sort out the difference between the two waves.

Also of course we dont have any DNA from Ukraine etc for the famous Gravettian mammoth hunter groups there although they seem to me likely to be WHG-like (or perhaps CHG-like) to me. I tried to read up a bit on the fate of these Late Gravettian groups in Ukraine but culturally they seem to have fizzled out and become so overwhelmed by new influences that there is no obvious Mesolithic successors to them. They may have followed and then died out with their preferred prey and been heavily overlaid by groups from the east who were adapted to the new environments of the area in the post-Younger Dryas era when things warmed up a lot.

Jean M
11-22-2015, 02:30 PM
The Samara hunter lived in the 2nd phase so its impossible unfortunately to infer too much.

Haak 2015 Supplement, p. 22:



The individual we refer to as ‘Samara hunter-gatherer’ I0124/SVP44 (5640-5555 calBCE, Beta-392490) is an adult male from grave 1 in a Neolithic-Eneolithic settlement producing artifacts from the Elshanka, Samara, and Repin cultures. The specific site is Lebyazhinka IV, on the Sok River, Samara oblast, Russia. (‘Neolithic’ here refers to the presence of ceramics, not to domesticated animals or plants.) The radiocarbon date of this individual, based on a femur, is centuries before the appearance of domesticated animals in the middle Volga region. Lebyazhinka IV and the neighboring Lebyazhinka V site were occupied seasonally by multiple cultures between 7000-3500 BCE; a few graves were found in the settled areas.

bicicleur
11-22-2015, 03:20 PM
R1b in Iran looks like to be derived from the West, R1b -L23 from Armenia and Eastern Anatolia arriving only in Gilan because there's a very small frequency of R1b in Mazandaran. R1b L-23 is only 6000 ybp, so that's a relatively young clade not related to the Mesolithic. Only J1 and J2 are frequent and old enough to be native to the Southern Caspian Shores.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

yes, but there are also some very old clades found in this study, R*, R1*, R1a*, R1b*

Silesian
11-22-2015, 03:28 PM
Yes I mentioned in the original post that the earliest pottery to reach Europe was that found in the Samara region of Russia with hunter-gatherers. That is the Elshanka Culture. It is called Neolithic by the Russians, as they use the presence of pottery as the signal of the Neolithic - confusing to the rest of us.

I'm a little confused; not that it takes much. We have Elshanka culture/pottery -Repin culture & and if I remember correctly, Professor Anthony uses the term Telgin 1 and Telgin 2,[found stratified in some kurgan/burials] Are these pottery types the same -just different names, or connected in some way to the other types of pottery on the linked colour coded map like the older regions?


Are any or all of the pottery types connected with Karagash Kurgan?

Wagon dweller-page 309
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0FDqf415wqgC&pg=PA309&lpg=PA309&dq=kurgan+siberia+afanasievo+david+anthony&source=bl&ots=2Z63pNMNPw&sig=EjrP9HzdT_USGcLYBQPYuG5EkNI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju8qPvqqTJAhVDVj4KHduTC48Q6AEIMDAE#v=on epage&q=kurgan%20siberia%20afanasievo%20david%20anthony&f=false

bicicleur
11-22-2015, 03:38 PM
I think if you look at the Palaeolithic around Georgia and Armenia the dominant influence is Gravettian from the separate branch that headed straight there from SW Asian Ahmerian. It still looks Gravettian descended right to the Mesolithic. They may have been shunted about by climate changes through the glacial period but perhaps not far. So some of the number crunchers on Eurogenes right now who are saying CHG is actually a branch equally related to WHG, ANE, ENF etc seem to fit better to the archaeology IMO. I recall a paper saying some sort of proto-Gravettian headed direct to the Caucasus earlier than Europe - c. 38000BC which is only slightly older than the European Aurignacian and far earlier than the European Gravettian. That is fairly early in the peopling of Europe and not long before the Aurignacian. As all of these cultures migrated from what was the Emiran of the Levant area we are talking about differences in time rather than origin point. My suspicion is that something akin to WHG only developed first in the north Levant/Turkey in the period after the Aurginacian and the very early Asian proto-Gravettian wave to the Caucasus on the one hand and the later Gravettian wave direct into Europe. Those seem to bookend the development of WHG type populations. I believe WHG probably originated at the extreme west end of Asia near the east Med. after 30000BC.

I've read the same or a similar paper, if I remember well by Ted Goegel.

The Gravettian originated in the area of Mezmayskaya cave 39-33 ka.
These people came from Georgia and they invented borers to drill eyes in needles.
The same technique to drill the beads in the Sungir man.
Because of this they had better clothing and tents.
They roamed the cold steppe chasing the herds, while Aurignacian was more confined to the shelter of caves.
By LGM Aurignacians were extinct leaving only Gravettians in Europe.

Sorry - this has nothing to do with R1b & pottery.

bicicleur
11-22-2015, 03:42 PM
I'm a little confused; not that it takes much. We have Elshanka culture/pottery -Repin culture & and if I remember correctly, Professor Anthony uses the term Telgin 1 and Telgin 2,[found stratified in some kurgan/burials] Are these pottery types the same -just different names, or connected in some way to the other types of pottery on the linked colour coded map like the older regions?


Are any or all of the pottery types connected with Karagash Kurgan?

Wagon dweller-page 309
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0FDqf415wqgC&pg=PA309&lpg=PA309&dq=kurgan+siberia+afanasievo+david+anthony&source=bl&ots=2Z63pNMNPw&sig=EjrP9HzdT_USGcLYBQPYuG5EkNI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju8qPvqqTJAhVDVj4KHduTC48Q6AEIMDAE#v=on epage&q=kurgan%20siberia%20afanasievo%20david%20anthony&f=false

Elshanka was the oldest.
It stayed there for a while and then spread all over the Pontic steppe 8.2 ka.
The wagon-dwellers were 5.5-5 ka, a totally different period.

Silesian
11-22-2015, 04:47 PM
I've read the same or a similar paper, if I remember well by Ted Goegel.

The Gravettian originated in the area of. Mezmayskaya cave 39-33 ka
These people came from Georgia and they invented borers to drill eyes in needles.
The same technique to drill the beads in the Sungir man.
Because of this they had better clothing and tents.
They roamed the cold steppe chasing the herds, while Aurignacian was more confined to the shelter of caves.
By LGM Aurignacians were extinct leaving only Gravettians in Europe.

Sorry - this has nothing to do with R1b & pottery.
Did Neaderthal from Mezmayskaya cave have anything to do with unique and archaic signature of CHG samples ?

They also found that the Neanderthal component in non-African modern humans was more related to the Mezmaiskaya Neanderthal (Caucasus) than to the Altai Neanderthal (Siberia) or the Vindija Neanderthals (Croatia).[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_human_admixture_with_modern_humans
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/full/nature12886.html

Gravetto-Danubian
11-22-2015, 10:33 PM
So some of the number crunchers on Eurogenes right now who are saying CHG is actually a branch equally related to WHG, ANE, ENF etc seem to fit better to the archaeology IMO. I recall a paper saying some sort of proto-Gravettian headed direct to the Caucasus earlier than Europe - c. 38000BC which is only slightly later than the European Aurignacian and far earlier than the European Gravettian.

Im barely keeping up with them, but I think they're (RK, Matt, Alberto) concluding that CHG is actually very basal, and more basal than Stuttgart. I think it is only Krefter who is asserting that CHG is not so basal, but a more recent 'mix'.

Moreover, it is looking as if this "CHG" is actually not the 'Teal' which mixed into Yamnaya, but something derived from it, younger and perhaps from somewhere further east might be... :)
Stay tuned.

Silesian
11-28-2015, 02:50 PM
Stratified burials.
The Horse, the Wheel, and Language:
Stratified burials Bykovo & Berezhnovka & Telegin's A1 and A2 type pottery> Yamnaya
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0FDqf415wqgC&pg=PA319&dq=telgin+pottery+stratified+1+and+2+anthony&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwip-Z3RrbPJAhWMWh4KHZYIBzIQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=telgin%20pottery%20stratified%201%20and%202%20an thony&f=false

Kurd's work with Caucasus Hunter Gatherer parsed from Anatolian Farmer and Eastern Hunter Gatherer
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-ObXiVfL-RzOEpDQ2U3MTJzNTA/view
Eurasia K11 averages;

6728

Yamnaya 0.0065 0.0000 0.0000 0.8365 0.0297 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0363 0.0000 0.0910
Samara_Eneolithic 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.9999 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000
Karelia_HG 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.9999 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000

kinman
11-30-2015, 03:29 AM
Hi All,
So are we anywhere closer to figuring out where Haplogroup R originated? Kyrgyrstan or eastern Kazakhstan? Or further west in Uzbekistan?
I suppose it gave rise to R1 in eastern Kazakhstan or nearby. Or is this narrowing the possibilities too much? Siberia just seems a bit too far north.
--------------Ken

Gravetto-Danubian
11-30-2015, 03:39 AM
Hi All,
So are we anywhere closer to figuring out where Haplogroup R originated? Kyrgyrstan or eastern Kazakhstan? Or further west in Uzbekistan?
I suppose it gave rise to R1 in eastern Kazakhstan or nearby. Or is this narrowing the possibilities too much? Siberia just seems a bit too far north.
--------------Ken

IMO, somewhere between Sth Siberia and the Indus Plain. A major problem, Ken, is the lack of much Palaeolithic material from the regions you have just mentioned, and the aridity right in the middle of it.

Its very difficult to find a haplogroup in the act of emerging - even if we had several samples.

On the whole, however, looking at the overall phylogeny of macrohaplogroup K, and R (R1 vs R2), I'd favour south-central Asia. I think there were at least a couple of radiations of R north - including one before the LGM (-> Mal'ta's (extinct) R line). Also note now that Afantova Gora is looking like it was Q

As for the R1 lineages in our more proximate EHG chaps, we still do not know when they arrived. At the moment, Alan's & Jean's theory about a Mesolithic spread with such things as microblades and eastern pottery- possibly from the vicinity of the Altai, certainly makes sense to me. But who knows, they could have arrived to EE at 16000 y BP; just after the LGM (which was my working theory)

Johannes Krause from max Planck and Ron Pinhasi from Dublin have much of the testable Palaeolithic samples from Eurasia, so lets see what they churn out over the next year or so.

vettor
11-30-2015, 04:52 AM
Hi All,
So are we anywhere closer to figuring out where Haplogroup R originated? Kyrgyzstan or eastern Kazakhstan? Or further west in Uzbekistan?
I suppose it gave rise to R1 in eastern Kazakhstan or nearby. Or is this narrowing the possibilities too much? Siberia just seems a bit too far north.
--------------Ken

If you say R ...........then as karafet states in her 2 papers 2104 and 2015.......Malaysia area

If you mean R1 then I would say either Kyrgyzstan or Turkmenistan area

parasar
11-30-2015, 05:17 AM
If you say R ...........then as karafet states in her 2 papers 2104 and 2015.......Malaysia area

If you mean R1 then I would say either Kyrgyzstan or Turkmenistan area
MA1 is close to being R (a preR derived line). While MA1 was indeed considered SE Asian derived by its excavator Gerasimov, I would put R's origin near Q's origin. While SE Asia is indeed possible, I think Siberia is more likely.

kinman
11-30-2015, 05:43 PM
Hi All,
I am more and more interested in the Kyrgyzstan region as a likely birth place of Haplogroup R. Especially being the home of forests with wild apple trees (which are the ancestors of our modern domesticated apple trees). The wild apples would have provided an important food source for both people and their livestock (with enough Vitamin C to help prevent scurvy?). I assume wild apples could be easily stored for consumption during the harsh winter months.
And speaking of winter, Kyrgyzstan would have presumably also have been far enough south to have winters that were less severe than in the area of the Altai Mountains.
Do we yet have much genetic evidence from Kyrgyzstan that would argue either for or against it being the homeland of Haplogroup R ?
------------Ken

alan
11-30-2015, 06:08 PM
IMO, somewhere between Sth Siberia and the Indus Plain. A major problem, Ken, is the lack of much Palaeolithic material from the regions you have just mentioned, and the aridity right in the middle of it.

Its very difficult to find a haplogroup in the act of emerging - even if we had several samples.

On the whole, however, looking at the overall phylogeny of macrohaplogroup K, and R (R1 vs R2), I'd favour south-central Asia. I think there were at least a couple of radiations of R north - including one before the LGM (-> Mal'ta's (extinct) R line). Also note now that Afantova Gora is looking like it was Q

As for the R1 lineages in our more proximate EHG chaps, we still do not know when they arrived. At the moment, Alan's & Jean's theory about a Mesolithic spread with such things as microblades and eastern pottery- possibly from the vicinity of the Altai, certainly makes sense to me. But who knows, they could have arrived to EE at 16000 y BP; just after the LGM (which was my working theory)

Johannes Krause from max Planck and Ron Pinhasi from Dublin have much of the testable Palaeolithic samples from Eurasia, so lets see what they churn out over the next year or so.

I looked fairly hard to see an archaeological signal from Siberia before 10000BC reaching Europe or SW Asia but I just couldnt find any suggestion of it. Siberians had a distinctive technology so it would stand out. However, the Palaeolithic is one of the periods hardest to find sites, most subject to new discoveries changing things and all sorts of biases caused by obscuring by post-glacial deposits and simply where gets more excavation are at play. There is also the bamboo factor - wherever bamboo was persistently present it seems people used it and abandoned all but the most simple flint tools - depriving archaeological evidence for cultural links/origins. For example, in parallel to the Emiran move from SW Asia to Siberia (Ust Ism etc) there could have been a simultaneous move from SW Asia along the southern coasts of Asia to the south-east but we just wouldnt be able to interpret its origins in terms of tools etc. All we have is radiocarbon dates and material that doesnt lend itself to deducing origins. That of course is not to say there were not earlier waves too

alan
11-30-2015, 06:29 PM
Hi All,
I am more and more interested in the Kyrgyzstan region as a likely birth place of Haplogroup R. Especially being the home of forests with wild apple trees (which are the ancestors of our modern domesticated apple trees). The wild apples would have provided an important food source for both people and their livestock (with enough Vitamin C to help prevent scurvy?). I assume wild apples could be easily stored for consumption during the harsh winter months.
And speaking of winter, Kyrgyzstan would have presumably also have been far enough south to have winters that were less severe than in the area of the Altai Mountains.
Do we yet have much genetic evidence from Kyrgyzstan that would argue either for or against it being the homeland of Haplogroup R ?
------------Ken

I am not certain but the type of technology used by Mal'ta boy and his culture 30000-22000BC he lived in may have extended to the eastermost part of Kyrgystan. However, with R being 30000+ years old I dont think its possible that R could have been in Kyrgystan during the LGM as it was a cold desert AFAIK.

parasar
11-30-2015, 06:48 PM
I am not certain but the type of technology used by Mal'ta boy and his culture 30000-22000BC he lived in may have extended to the eastermost part of Kyrgystan. However, with R being 30000+ years old I dont think its possible that R could have been in Kyrgystan during the LGM as it was a cold desert AFAIK.

How about Yana? Was its tool-kit related to Mal'ta?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/01/0114_040114_siberianhumans_2.html
"Russian researchers have found a wealth of hunting tools, which date back 31,000 years, along central Siberia's Yana River. The artifacts include hundreds of stone tools and flakes, as well as spear foreshafts made of rhinoceros horn and mammoth tusk... most of the Yana tools were based on flake production from pebbles available in the riverbed. Using radiocarbon dating, Pitulko established them to be more than 30,000 years old ... To add to the intrigue, the foreshaft first found in Yana bears a striking resemblance to others used by the Clovis people, believed by many archeologists to be the first humans in North America.

However, Pitulko says the connection remains tenuous. The Clovis foreshafts are around 16,000 years younger than those found at Yana River and were found 6,000 kilometers (3,700 miles) away."

Jean M
06-18-2016, 06:00 PM
So I am reverting to a previous notion of mine that people crossed the Caspian from North to South and back again seasonally in the Mesolithic. But in this revised model, only R1b-V88 would join the Neolithic on the south, not the whole of R1b, as I once proposed.

We have R1b1-M415(xM269) in Armenia in the early Bronze Age (Kura-Araxes culture). See https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/744192603424456704 Obviously that is too late to be support for my hypothesis, but still interesting.

alan
06-18-2016, 09:11 PM
We have R1b1-M415(xM269) in Armenia in the early Bronze Age (Kura-Araxes culture). See https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/744192603424456704 Obviously that is too late to be support for my hypothesis, but still interesting.

Certainly the LGM Caspian provided the first real opportunity west of China for moving between the Eurasian steppe-tundra belt and south Asia. The cold LGM desert from the East Caspian to China otherwise prevented it. The main reason for lack of archaeological evidence IMO is the Caspian LGM shorelines are under the sea today. Post-LGM the problem is the Caspian grew hugely and as it expanded the shore moved outwards year by year with the sea burying each years shoreline under very deep marine deposits which makes archaeological recovery very unlikely. Land just above the shoreline of the maximum extent post-LGM Caspian is where upper Palaeolithic archaeological remains linked to the Caspian shores will be reachable. But these will date to the post-LGM sea maximum - everything else between the say 22000BC and that post-LGM maximum sea extent (cant remember the date - was it 12000BC?) will have been overrun by the expanding then retreating of the Caspian, disturbed and deeply buried by the marine deposits and unlikely to be recoverable.

Funny - think of this just triggered a thought. The appearance of R1b and CHG in Europe in Italy dates to 12000BC. I wonder if a major push factor for R1b carrying CHG hunters was the post-LGM expansion of the Pontic-Caspian Seas and the loss of large areas of land???

Jean M
06-18-2016, 09:40 PM
Certainly the LGM Caspian provided the first real opportunity west of China for moving between the Eurasian steppe-tundra belt and south Asia.

I wasn't thinking either of such an early date or movement into South Asia. As I said in post #1


I am reverting to a previous notion of mine that people crossed the Caspian from North to South and back again seasonally in the Mesolithic. But in this revised model, only R1b-V88 would join the Neolithic on the south, not the whole of R1b, as I once proposed.

People crossed the Caspian in the Mesolithic by boat. We actually have evidence of the use of boats on the Caspian in the Mesolithic in the form of petroglyphs. I'm adding that to the links shown by material culture north and south of the Caspian.

Palaeolithic movement into South Asia is among the questions discussed on the thread http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3433-Waves-of-migration-into-South-Asia

Gravetto-Danubian
06-18-2016, 10:26 PM
Yeah I still think we need a better sketch out of refuge areas for east of Europe to Asia
The new Pinhasi makes some brief commentary


""The Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) made entire regions in northern Eurasia uninhabitable, and therefore a number of hunter)gatherer populations likely moved to the south. For Europe there may be a separation between Western and Eastern populations with minimal occupation of the Central European plains (24). For Eastern Europe, Central Asia and the northern Near East, glaciation itself was less a factor (26). In these areas, our understanding of how populations weathered the LGM is still vague at best. It has previously been suggested that differences in the frequency of long and short runs of homozygosity in ancient samples may be associated with different demographic experiences during the LGM (36). Anatolian farmers, with their shorter ROH, have been argued to have been relatively little affected by the LGM compared to Western and Caucasus Hunter) Gatherers, which are characterised by more long ROH (>2Mb). GD13a has a profile similar to that of Anatolian, suggesting that her ancestors also faced more benign conditions compared to populations further north. Superimposing the sampling locations of these groups onto climatic reconstructions from the LGM (Fig. 2b), however, does not reveal clear climatic differences among the regions. It is possible that the ancestors of the Anatolian farmers and Ganj Dareh spent the LGM in areas further south or east, which experienced milder climate. But it is also possible that they exploited local pockets of favourable climate. Whilst high elevation sites in the Zagros were abandoned during the LGM(37), there are a number of sites in the valleys that were occupied during that period and might have experienced more favourable conditions""

Jean M
06-18-2016, 10:39 PM
Yeah I still think we need a better sketch out of refuge areas for east of Europe to Asia
The new Pinhasi makes some brief commentary

Yes I saw that. I liked the interpretation of long and short runs of homozygosity. The authors are really using their genome-wide material to best advantage. Lazaridis et al 2016 make the same point, not surprisingly, as Pinhasi was joint senior author on both papers.