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bicicleur
11-23-2015, 11:28 AM
three tribes of J survived LGM : J1, J2a and J2b
these tribes have now been identified with the Eastern Epigravettian in Georgia
a J HG has been found in Karelia, he had probably joined R1 in their journey north along the big rivers of eastern Europe

according to YFull both J1 and J2a started to expand 18 ka, J2b 16 ka

if they were not the Natufians, how could they expand that early, even before the domestication of the goat (14-13 ka) or cattle (10 ka)?

were they the ones who were trading obsidian with the Natufians 16 ka?

http://www.archatlas.org/ObsidianRoutes/ObsidianRoutes.php


Epigravettians came to Lake Sevan in summertime to hunt and collect obsidian since 17 ka.

http://www.digitorient.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Montoya-et-al.-2013-JHE-in-press.pdf

Were the same people collecting the obsidian from Cappadocia and Bingöl?

The most important obsidian source in Cappadocia was Mt Hassan.
10.2 ka Acikli Hoyuk was founded in the foothills of Mt Hassan.
There were many obsidian collectors around Mt Hassan and they needed to be fed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%9F%C4%B1kl%C4%B1_H%C3%B6y%C3%BCk


Acikli Hoyuk was the predecessor of Catal Hoyuk and numerous other settlements in Central Anatolia.
Does this represent the further expansion of haplo J?

RCO
11-23-2015, 12:13 PM
Very interesting topic

Quantitative Approach to the Diffusion of Obsidian
in the Ancient Northern Near East
http://www.iatp.am/news/dijest/dijest4/chataigner_obsidian.pdf

Quantitative approach to the diffusion of obsidian in the ancient northern Near East
Chataigner, Christine ; Barge, Olivier
In: Posluschny, A. ; Lambers, K. ; Herzog, I. (Hrsgg.): Layers of Perception. Proceedings of the 35th International Conference on Computer Applications and Quantitative Methods in Archaeology (CAA), Berlin, 2.-6. April, 2007 (Koll. Vor- u. Frühgesch. 10). Bonn 2008 375 (Abstract)
http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/propylaeumdok/554/

Megalophias
11-23-2015, 04:18 PM
according to YFull both J1 and J2a started to expand 18 ka, J2b 16 ka

if they were not the Natufians, how could they expand that early, even before the domestication of the goat (14-13 ka) or cattle (10 ka)?

Well, that is the same timing as a lot of other haplogroups, and it is easy to guess why. It started to get warmer and rainier, the deserts all around began to turn into grasslands, the ice retreated up the mountain slopes; more territory, more vegetation, more game. The end of the Last Glacial Maximum.

That is not to knock the obsidian angle though, which is intriguing.

bicicleur
11-23-2015, 05:10 PM
Well, that is the same timing as a lot of other haplogroups, and it is easy to guess why. It started to get warmer and rainier, the deserts all around began to turn into grasslands, the ice retreated up the mountain slopes; more territory, more vegetation, more game. The end of the Last Glacial Maximum.

That is not to knock the obsidian angle though, which is intriguing.

That is true, but together with G2, J was the tribe with the strongest expansion in SW Asia. Somehow they had to compete with the Natufians, which, by elimination seems to have been G2. G2 seems not to have expanded in India, 9 ka Mehrgarh seems to have ben haplo J and not G2. Somehow they had taken over the initiative from G2.
Ohter tribes, like L,T, C1a2 and H2 expanded much slower, and I suspect a lot more tribes went extinct during or after LGM in SW Asia.

ADW_1981
11-23-2015, 05:23 PM
three tribes of J survived LGM : J1, J2a and J2b
these tribes have now been identified with the Eastern Epigravettian in Georgia
a J HG has been found in Karelia, he had probably joined R1 in their journey north along the big rivers of eastern Europe

according to YFull both J1 and J2a started to expand 18 ka, J2b 16 ka

if they were not the Natufians, how could they expand that early, even before the domestication of the goat (14-13 ka) or cattle (10 ka)?

were they the ones who were trading obsidian with the Natufians 16 ka?

http://www.archatlas.org/ObsidianRoutes/ObsidianRoutes.php


Epigravettians came to Lake Sevan in summertime to hunt and collect obsidian since 17 ka.

http://www.digitorient.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Montoya-et-al.-2013-JHE-in-press.pdf

Were the same people collecting the obsidian from Cappadocia and Bingöl?

The most important obsidian source in Cappadocia was Mt Hassan.
10.2 ka Acikli Hoyuk was founded in the foothills of Mt Hassan.
There were many obsidian collectors around Mt Hassan and they needed to be fed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%9F%C4%B1kl%C4%B1_H%C3%B6y%C3%BCk


Acikli Hoyuk was the predecessor of Catal Hoyuk and numerous other settlements in Central Anatolia.
Does this represent the further expansion of haplo J?

Is there really any evidence either G or J were part of the Natufian cultures of the Levant? Is there any reason to suggest the people living in both western and eastern Anatolia were the same as the Levant at the same time? I've seen this suggested several places and in terms of ancient YDNA, R1b-V88 and E1b are heavily underrepresented from results. Both these haplogroups appear to be old in the Levant region, so I think we need local Levantine data to be sure of anything.

vettor
11-23-2015, 05:32 PM
That is true, but together with G2, J was the tribe with the strongest expansion in SW Asia. Somehow they had to compete with the Natufians, which, by elimination seems to have been G2. G2 seems not to have expanded in India, 9 ka Mehrgarh seems to have ben haplo J and not G2. Somehow they had taken over the initiative from G2.
Ohter tribes, like L,T, C1a2 and H2 expanded much slower, and I suspect a lot more tribes went extinct during or after LGM in SW Asia.

G2, J, T, L, H2, I did not expand from SW-asia ..........they arrived there later

you forget G1 is in central asia ............near G1 , must be G2 , they where together once.

ZephyrousMandaru
11-23-2015, 08:28 PM
The J discovered in Karelia and Georgia are some of the few J lineages recovered from ancient genomes. But we still need to keep in mind that we have sequenced exactly zero ancient Y-DNA lineages in the Middle East and South-Central Asia. Keep in mind that a good portion of CHG is Basal Eurasian, a cluster that is unlikely to have originated in the Caucasus.

J Man
11-23-2015, 08:30 PM
It would be amazing if someone could get a hold of the Y-DNA files for the EHG J sample from Karelia to see if he was J*, J1 or J2.

Agamemnon
11-23-2015, 08:53 PM
An association with the Zarzian horizon looks likely in this case... Not sure about the Natufians though, I'd certainly like to see ancient data from the Levant.


The J discovered in Karelia and Georgia are some of the few J lineages recovered from ancient genomes. But we still need to keep in mind that we have sequenced exactly zero ancient Y-DNA lineages in the Middle East and South-Central Asia. Keep in mind that a good portion of CHG is Basal Eurasian, a cluster that is unlikely to have originated in the Caucasus.

Yes, I think we need the J equivalent of Mal'ta boy to say anything useful about J's origins from now on.

bicicleur
11-23-2015, 11:27 PM
I'm sure new studies will follow and they will be full of surprises just like the studies that have allready been published lately. Certainly the J in Satslurbia and Kotias Klde were such a surprise.
It is my guess with the data at hand today.
If you check TMRCA dates in YFull you can see that G2 and J were the most expansive tribes in SW Asia after LGM.
Right after the youngest dryas farming primarely based on cereals started to develop and expand, and there is a clear connection with the Natufians before the youngest dryas.
We know that G2a was the main player in the expansion of agriculture into Europe and now we just found out that J were not the Natufians, they were Eastern Epigravettians, HG who were east and north of the Black Sea. Somehow these J HG were able to compete with and expand as fast as the first farmers. They were not even the first ones to domesticate the goats, these were people coming from the Zarzian culture in the Zagros Mountains.
I'm just looking for an explanation how these J tribes did it. I hoped somebody could give his view or come up with an alternative explanation.

bicicleur
11-23-2015, 11:37 PM
G2, J, T, L, H2, I did not expand from SW-asia ..........they arrived there later

you forget G1 is in central asia ............near G1 , must be G2 , they where together once.

G1 and G2 split 26.2 ka, which was before LGM, they could have, and I believe they did survive LGM in a different refugium.
G1a and G1b split shortly after LGM but after that G1 expanded very slow and very late. Furthermore there is no anciant DNA on G1, it is very hard to find out were G1 was after LGM.

G2 expanded very quick after LGM, there are many old subclades and they spread from Europe in the west to Iran in the east, the whole area were the cereal based agriculture from SW Asia expanded to, except India.