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kinman
12-01-2015, 01:50 AM
Hi All,
I was looking at the modern distributions of the subclades of Haplogroup I, and they make me wonder if Haplogroup I originated in Kurdistan (and stayed there for about 15,000 years before splitting into I1 and I2).

From there, they seem to have gone across Anatolia into the Balkans area, and then some going up the Danube to Germany, etc . Haplogroup I1 seems to have reached Sweden by 7500 years ago (if not before).

Gravetto-Danubian
12-01-2015, 01:55 AM
Hi All,
I was looking at the modern distributions of the subclades of Haplogroup I, and they make me wonder if Haplogroup I originated in Kurdistan (and stayed there for about 15,000 years before splitting into I1 and I2).

From there, they seem to have gone across Anatolia into the Balkans area, and then some going up the Danube to Germany, etc . Haplogroup I1 seems to have reached Sweden by 7500 years ago (if not before).


Are you aware that haplogroup I2 was found in Central Europe c. 14000 years ago, and likely arrived ~ 25-35000 years ago?

But if you'd said something about IJ* in Kurdistan c. 38000 y BP, then yes

kinman
12-01-2015, 02:25 AM
Haplogroup I arose about 42,000 years ago (a logical place would be Kurdistan in my opinion). They stayed there 15,000 years, split into I1 and I2, and then spread into Anatolia and SE Europe about 27,000 years ago. So being found ca. 14,000 years ago in Central Europe would be no surprise.

However, I am curious who published that early occurence in Central Europe (and how they determined that I2 likely arrived there as early as 25-35000 years ago).
-------------Ken
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I don't follow the logic of this hypothesis, and think it 100% unlikely

Are you aware that haplogroup I2 was found in Central Europe c. 14000 years ago, and likely arrived ~ 25-35000 years ago?

But if you'd said something about IJ* in Kurdistan c. 38000 y BP, then yes

Gravetto-Danubian
12-01-2015, 02:48 AM
Haplogroup I arose about 42,000 years ago (a logical place would be Kurdistan in my opinion). They stayed there 15,000 years, split into I1 and I2, and then spread into Anatolia and SE Europe about 27,000 years ago. So being found ca. 14,000 years ago in Central Europe would be no surprise.


-------------Ken
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And which event after c. 27 kya would have elicited its arrival ?
and how would you marry this hypothesis of yours with the contradictory autosomal evidence, or the absence of any I diversity in modern Caspian region ?

kinman
12-01-2015, 03:04 AM
I suppose the I1 and I2 who moved on did so for the same reason some R1b moved west---a growing population outstripped the available good niches in their homeland. The surplus males move on to greener pastures (if they can find them).

Any of them who did go in the direction of the Caspian Sea probably eventually got smacked down (or driven back) by R1b (or other haplogroups) who were more aggressive.

And what is the contrdictory autosomal evidence?
-------------------------Ken
P.S. If Haplogroup I didn't arise in Kurdistan, what other locale would you suggest is more logical?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And which event after c. 27 kya would have elicited its arrival ?
and how would you marry this hypothesis of yours with the contradictory autosomal evidence, or the absence of any I diversity in modern Caspian region ?

paulgill
12-01-2015, 03:07 AM
And which event after c. 27 kya would have elicited its arrival ?
and how would you marry this hypothesis of yours with the contradictory autosomal evidence, or the absence of any I diversity in modern Caspian region ?

Can you please provide the proof that JI didn't split somewhere in Europe.

Gravetto-Danubian
12-01-2015, 03:27 AM
Let me answer your question with another question :)

Where do you think the ancestors of the Bichon sample (central -Western European epi-Magdalenians) were c. 20 000 y BP ? A correct answer for this is contingent on the survival of your hypothesis

ZephyrousMandaru
12-01-2015, 03:34 AM
Can you please provide the proof that JI didn't split somewhere in Europe.

Even if it didn't, there's no evidence to suggest that it did. Satsurblia only belongs to a specific lineage of J1, namely J1b. Sure, it's an archaic genome, but the Middle East has been inhabited for 120,000 years, there's no reason to think that J1 bifurcated in Europe based on a single ancient genome.

Gravetto-Danubian
12-01-2015, 03:34 AM
Can you please provide the proof that JI didn't split somewhere in Europe.

Pauly, no proof bud
as of yet, we have no European UP samples apart from the extinct line of Oase (IJK *); and of Kostenki (C1b), 36 ky BP.
Obvoulsy; I is linked with IJ. The question is when did these separate ?
I'd have thought what we know about WHG and CHG makes the answer very clear

But we don't know who was where when. That is to say; who lived in the Caucasus -Kurdistan region c. 2500o y BP ?

Silesian
12-01-2015, 03:40 AM
The rough geographic outline of common mutation IJ-M429[s2/22] linking one super group[Large portion of Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples] .
The small black area, north of Black sea and Caspian is where R1a & R1b [R-M173] Europeans migrated both West/East/South[IMO]:).

6764

paulgill
12-01-2015, 03:41 AM
Even if it didn't, there's no evidence to suggest that it did. Satsurblia only belongs to a specific lineage of J1, namely J1b. Sure, it's an archaic genome, but the Middle East has been inhabited for 120,000 years, there's no reason to think that J1 bifurcated in Europe based on a single ancient genome.

Look under the history of Pakistan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrgarh

Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riwat

Gravetto-Danubian
12-01-2015, 03:45 AM
Also we might be using definitions of "Europe "
I don't count the Caucasus as Europe; but it's own distinct entity

kinman
12-01-2015, 03:45 AM
You ask a lot of questions, but aren't answering any. Anyway, as for the Bichon I2 sample, its ancestor could have been in the Balkans, or northern Italy, or even on the Danube. Should I know where they were at any given time?
--------------------------------------------------------------


Let me answer your question with another question :)

Where do you think the ancestors of the Bichon sample (central -Western European epi-Magdalenians) were c. 20 000 y BP ? A correct answer for this is contingent on the survival of your hypothesis

Gravetto-Danubian
12-01-2015, 03:46 AM
The rough geographic outline of common mutation IJ-M429[s2/22] linking one super group[Large portion of Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples] .
The small black area, north of Black sea and Caspian is where R1a & R1b [R-M173] Europeans migrated both West/East/South[IMO]:).

6764

Nah R1 has nothing to do with it
R1 came late to Europe from Central Asia (Mesolithic)

paulgill
12-01-2015, 03:50 AM
The rough geographic outline of common mutation IJ-M429[s2/22] linking one super group[Large portion of Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples] .
The small black area, north of Black sea and Caspian is where R1a & R1b [R-M173] Europeans migrated both West/East/South[IMO]:).

6764

IJ split took place long before the Afro-Asiatic languages appeared.

Gravetto-Danubian
12-01-2015, 05:31 AM
You ask a lot of questions, but aren't answering any. Anyway, as for the Bichon I2 sample, its ancestor could have been in the Balkans, or northern Italy, or even on the Danube. Should I know where they were at any given time?
--------------------------------------------------------------

I gave you (what I think is) the answer. You just need to read between the lines
But ask LGMayka or Michal for their views

ZephyrousMandaru
12-01-2015, 08:23 AM
Pauly, no proof bud
as of yet, we have no European UP samples apart from the extinct line of Oase (IJK *); and of Kostenki (C1b), 36 ky BP.
Obvoulsy; I is linked with IJ. The question is when did these separate ?
I'd have thought what we know about WHG and CHG makes the answer very clear

But we don't know who was where when. That is to say; who lived in the Caucasus -Kurdistan region c. 2500o y BP ?

I've noticed that in modern populations, CHG seems to display higher frequencies in Kurds, oddly enough even Assyrians, Iraqi Jews and Iranian Jews have more than Armenians do. I could understand why Turks would have less, but it doesn't really make much sense for Armenians to have less than the aforementioned populations. I wonder if CHG could have expanded from the Zagros Mountains region, Iranian Jews have some of the highest proportions of Basal Eurasian ancestry second only to relatively isolated Arabian populations.

Gravetto-Danubian
12-01-2015, 08:34 AM
I've noticed that in modern populations, CHG seems to display higher frequencies in Kurds, oddly enough even Assyrians, Iraqi Jews and Iranian Jews have more than Armenians do. I could understand why Turks would have less, but it doesn't really make much sense for Armenians to have less than the aforementioned populations. I wonder if CHG could have expanded from the Zagros Mountains region, Iranian Jews have some of the highest proportions of Basal Eurasian ancestry second only to relatively isolated Arabian populations.

I think that is certainly possible. From the Jones paper, and the archaeological paper preceding it, it is apparent that these CHG guys arrived to the south Caucasus after the LGM. They appear to be a blend of 'basal Eurasian' and something basal in the 'Crown Eurasian' tree (EHG and WHG are much later descendents of some of the Crown Eurasians).

So the late Palaeolithic and Mesolithic CHGs in Caucasus must have come from somewhere further south, after the peak glacial ameliorated, c. 20-18kya.

But we don't know what pre-LGM groups would have looked like in the Caucasus. ? Kostenki like.
Impossible to even hypothesize without adequate sampling.

DMXX
12-01-2015, 08:57 AM
So far, the only data shown here specifically addressing the Y-DNA I point of origin is frequency data. We'll need a lot more beyond that:

1) Parahaplogroup data. Any funky subclades in West Asia? As far as I'm aware, most West Asian I is I2c (main subclade among Armenians). As far as current data pools go and to my knowledge, the biggest spectrum of Y-DNA I lineages is actually found in prehistoric Europe. Some IJ* was apparently picked up by Grugni et al. in Iran, which would certainly support a bifurcation between I and J somewhere around the region of Turkey and/or Iraqi Kurdistan or Iran itself (might have just served as an isolated refuge, impossible to determine without more data).

2) Y-STR diversity data. Ties in with above to an extent. I'm not aware of any data comparing Y-STR diversity rates between Balkan and West Asian Y-DNA I.

3) aDNA. We still have no retrieved Y-DNA from the historical Near-East (Mesopotamia & the Levant), the eastern half of the Anatolian plateau (apart from the northern portion of the Armenian highlands courtesy of Allentoft et al.) and the Iranian plateau.

Autosomal data is certainly relevant given WHG is predominantly Y-DNA I and CHG is predominantly Y-DNA J thus far, but the discussion will be better grounded if we stick to the uniparental side of things.

Gravetto-Danubian
12-01-2015, 09:06 AM
So far, the only data shown here specifically addressing the Y-DNA I point of origin is frequency data. We'll need a lot more beyond that:

1) Parahaplogroup data. Any funky subclades in West Asia? As far as I'm aware, most West Asian I is I2c (main subclade among Armenians). As far as current data pools go and to my knowledge, the biggest spectrum of Y-DNA I lineages is actually found in prehistoric Europe. Some IJ* was apparently picked up by Grugni et al. in Iran, which would certainly support a bifurcation between I and J somewhere around the region of Turkey and/or Iraqi Kurdistan.

2) Y-STR diversity data. Ties in with above to an extent. I'm not aware of any data comparing Y-STR diversity rates between Balkan and West Asian Y-DNA I.

3) aDNA. We still have no retrieved Y-DNA from the historical Near-East (Mesopotamia & the Levant), the eastern half of the Anatolian plateau (apart from the northern portion of the Armenian highlands courtesy of Allentoft et al.) and the Iranian plateau.

Autosomal data is certainly relevant given WHG is predominantly Y-DNA I and CHG is predominantly Y-DNA J thus far, but the discussion will be better grounded if we stick to the uniparental side of things.

Very much agree. Although I'd possibly drop (2). STR diversity has led up the garden path in the past, and we know have nice clean SNP clades

I2c is found in the good people of the Caucasus (I note it in the Armenia and Georgian ftDNA projects). And guess what - it was found in Neolithic Anatolia, possibly representing a shared Mesolithic component which stretched from Europe (incl Scandinavia) to Anatolia/ Caucasus. But given the otherwise dearth other I haplogroups in the Near East, I don't think the NE was the centre of diversity for I. But 'modern diversity' has also led us up the garden path ")

DMXX
12-01-2015, 09:15 AM
I'm suggesting, for now, opening the field wide open to see where the data leads us without wedding to one particular method. :) We're well past the stage of relying on frequency data for deducing haplogroup origins (I assumed that was a relic of 2000-2009 era discussions).

The absolute decider will always be aDNA, but in the absence of that, parahaplogroup distributions and Y-STR diversity might offer some useful clues.

As you say, option 2 (as well as 1 actually) have demonstratively led us towards red herring conclusions (best example I can recall is the prior reports of substantial Y-DNA R1a1a-M17 STR diversity in South-Central Asia, whereas SNP testing has convincingly shown that the overwhelming majority of South-Central Asian R1a1a is in fact Z93+, and quite young at that).

My current guess is we'll find some dead-end parahaplogroup forms of Y-DNA I* specifically in Anatolia, with the area of I and J's separation also happening around there.

bix
12-01-2015, 02:06 PM
Doesn't it seem that the "epi-Magdalenian" population in the Jura and Swiss plateau came from the southwest--say up the Rhone River valley? At least the Azilian tool kit Bichon was found with has a strong association with that direction--he was in their neighborhood at least.

There's some literature out there, like:

Antiquity / Volume 87 / Issue 336 / June 2013, pp 384-404

kinman
12-01-2015, 04:29 PM
That makes sense to me. If I2 left Kurdistan about 27,000 years ago, moving into western Anatolia and SE Europe, that gives them well over 10,000 years to go from the eastern Adriatic region, across northern Italy, and become part of the Azilian Culture in northern Spain and southern France. Growing population in that area could have then pushed an expansion of surplus I2 males into the Rhone River Valley and beyond.
---------Ken
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Doesn't it seem that the "epi-Magdalenian" population in the Jura and Swiss plateau came from the southwest--say up the Rhone River valley? At least the Azilian tool kit Bichon was found with has a strong association with that direction--he was in their neighborhood at least.

There's some literature out there, like:

Antiquity / Volume 87 / Issue 336 / June 2013, pp 384-404

Gravetto-Danubian
12-01-2015, 07:43 PM
That makes sense to me. If I2 left Kurdistan about 27,000 years ago, moving into western Anatolia and SE Europe, that gives them well over 10,000 years to go from the eastern Adriatic region, across northern Italy, and become part of the Azilian Culture in northern Spain and southern France. Growing population in that area could have then pushed an expansion of surplus I2 males into the Rhone River Valley and beyond.
---------Ken
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And what new culture/ industry did this migration bring ?

kinman
12-01-2015, 09:02 PM
Presumably the Ahrensburg Culture and Bromme Culture. But I also assume that Haplogroup I1 contributed to those cultures as well (having gone up the Danube River to Germany).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And what new culture/ industry did this migration bring ?

Silesian
12-01-2015, 09:39 PM
Nah R1 has nothing to do with it
R1 came late to Europe from Central Asia (Mesolithic)
K/Capova cave still within Russia.

the cave is best known for the 16.000 years old Upper Paleolithic rock paintings and drawings
http://en.russia.edu.ru/russia/cities/ufa/1166/

Anyway this is not about Indo-European R1a/b. This is about the origin of your paternal ancestry, I which has M429 at it's base:)
Here is some work Kurd did; pretty good. Do you have any objection to his findings using ancient genomes?
6779

Gravetto-Danubian
12-01-2015, 10:07 PM
K/Capova cave still within Russia.

http://en.russia.edu.ru/russia/cities/ufa/1166/

Anyway this is not about Indo-European R1a/b. This is about the origin of your paternal ancestry, I which has M429 at it's base:)
Here is some work Kurd did; pretty good. Do you have any objection to his findings using ancient genomes?
6779

As it has already been pointed out to you, there was no IE when the earliest R1 clan came into existence; and not even much later when they moved into Mesolithic Eastern Europe. (But if you want to speculate about which language
hunter-gatherers like Ahmarian-protoGravetian IJ* -or the upper Palaeolithic southeast Asian hunter gathers from which R derived- spoke, then you should pick a more appropriate thread; but IMO it's beyond the reach of realistic reconstruction)

As for sapiens taxonomy; it's hard to say with so much of Eurasia yet unsampled ; but from what i understand WHG -EHG-ANE form a Clade of sorts- as has been highlighted in the Jones paper and various discussions on this and other forums (maybe you missed it) But it's still difficult to say . The tree will be continually modified as more samples are found . Whatever the case, I think it's clear that we're all children of the great Eurasian landmass; in slightly differing proportions

kinman
12-02-2015, 06:06 PM
I agree that parahaplogroups will be very useful, but we don't have many (yet) in this case.

However, on YFull there is one fairly basal parahaplogroup, I-Y16419*, which is a man from the Kakheti region of Georgia. And that is a fairly short distance north of Kurdistan.

Therefore, I still think Haplogroup I (and probably Haplogroup J as well) arose in Kurdistan or very closeby. So Kurdistan is likely to be where we will find even more basal parahaplogroups. Georgia, Armenia, and other countries in that area would also be likely places to look.
----------Ken
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm suggesting, for now, opening the field wide open to see where the data leads us without wedding to one particular method. :) We're well past the stage of relying on frequency data for deducing haplogroup origins (I assumed that was a relic of 2000-2009 era discussions).

The absolute decider will always be aDNA, but in the absence of that, parahaplogroup distributions and Y-STR diversity might offer some useful clues.

As you say, option 2 (as well as 1 actually) have demonstratively led us towards red herring conclusions (best example I can recall is the prior reports of substantial Y-DNA R1a1a-M17 STR diversity in South-Central Asia, whereas SNP testing has convincingly shown that the overwhelming majority of South-Central Asian R1a1a is in fact Z93+, and quite young at that).

My current guess is we'll find some dead-end parahaplogroup forms of Y-DNA I* specifically in Anatolia, with the area of I and J's separation also happening around there.

Gravetto-Danubian
12-02-2015, 11:23 PM
I agree that parahaplogroups will be very useful, but we don't have many (yet) in this case.

However, on YFull there is one fairly basal parahaplogroup, I-Y16419*, which is a man from the Kakheti region of Georgia. And that is a fairly short distance north of Kurdistan.

Therefore, I still think Haplogroup I (and probably Haplogroup J as well) arose in Kurdistan or very closeby. So Kurdistan is likely to be where we will find even more basal parahaplogroups. Georgia, Armenia, and other countries in that area would also be likely places to look.
----------Ken
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That guy is just I2c
Like I said; your proposed location is sensical; but I suspect your chronology is off by 10000 years or more
But we can't have concrete conclusions at present until we get a couple of 22 k y old samples from Central Europe

Silesian
12-03-2015, 02:08 AM
However, on YFull there is one fairly basal parahaplogroup, I-Y16419*, which is a man from the Kakheti region of Georgia. And that is a fairly short distance north of Kurdistan.
Also from Middle East, Grugni et al found IJ*M-429/ in theory basal to I and J
http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/07/huge-study-on-y-chromosome-variation-in.html
Near East/Iraq--I* M170
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/table/TB1/

kinman
12-03-2015, 03:38 AM
I can't believe you say that he is "just" I2c. I2c is clearly rooted in this area just north of Kurdistan. Anyway, thankfully you at least agree on the proposed location.

Now I just have to convince you of the chronology (and mine is in agreement with YFull estimates). I can only hope that your continued criticism is meant to be "constructive" criticism, but it can get a bit irritating at times. In the meantime, I am not going to sit around waiting for "concrete" conclusions that might come many years in the future. I think there is enough evidence to form some very "semi-concrete" conclusions now (especially in the context of Haplogroup J's apparent origin in (or very near) Kurdistan in the timeframe that I proposed. I have a lot of ancestral lines in Haplogroup I, so this interests me almost as much as Haplogroup R. I wish I had begun studying it earlier.
-------------Ken
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


That guy is just I2c
Like I said; your proposed location is sensical; but I suspect your chronology is off by 10000 years or more
But we can't have concrete conclusions at present until we get a couple of 22 k y old samples from Central Europe

Gravetto-Danubian
12-03-2015, 04:19 AM
I can't believe you say that he is "just" I2c.

What's there to not believe ? I2c is not "rooted" in Kurdistan, it is found throughout Europe (including Mesolithic Sweden) - and has several sub- groups - and only I2c2 appears rooted in the Caucasus / Kurdistan region. The other subclades of I2c are "rooted" in central and western Europe.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215?iframe=yresults



Now I just have to convince you of the chronology (and mine is in agreement with YFull estimates). I can only hope that your continued criticism is meant to be "constructive" criticism, but it can get a bit irritating at times. In the meantime, I am not going to sit around waiting for "concrete" conclusions that might come many years in the future. I think there is enough evidence to form some very "semi-concrete" conclusions now (especially in the context of Haplogroup J's apparent origin in (or very near) Kurdistan in the timeframe that I proposed. I have a lot of ancestral lines in Haplogroup I, so this interests me almost as much as Haplogroup R. I wish I had begun studying it earlier.
-------------Ken
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

My critique is obviously not personal, just instructive and friendly ; and I appreciate your views.

This is what we'll find out in the near future;
I* arrived in Europe from IJ* c. 35 -25 ky BP
I subclades- esp the numerous I2 group- expanded from refugia within Europe from c. 18 kya
The Bichon sample is obviously from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge, and not the Middle East (for if it was , it would have some, or all, CHG and/or the 'Basal Eurasian'. It does not: its WHG, with slight SHG admixture).

But I'm happy to be proven wrong. I just see no evidence for a migration into Europe from the near east / Caucasus in the time period 22-12 kya; contrary to the situations of 42-32 kya, the Neolithic and copper ages

kinman
12-03-2015, 02:41 PM
Okay now I think I understand the disagreement,

We actually seem to agree on the timing of Haplogroup I moving into Europe. I said 27,000 years ago (see post 3), which is within the range you give (35-25 ky ago). And we certainly agree that the Bichon sample came from the Azilian Culture of northern Spain and southern France.

Where there seems to be some possible disagreement is whether Haplogroups I and J split apart before or after the move into Europe. I will have to give that some more thought.

--------Ken
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What's there to not believe ? I2c is not "rooted" in Kurdistan, it is found throughout Europe (including Mesolithic Sweden) - and has several sub- groups - and only I2c2 appears rooted in the Caucasus / Kurdistan region. The other subclades of I2c are "rooted" in central and western Europe.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215?iframe=yresults

My critique is obviously not personal, just instructive and friendly ; and I appreciate your views.

This is what we'll find out in the near future;
I* arrived in Europe from IJ* c. 35 -25 ky BP
I subclades- esp the numerous I2 group- expanded from refugia within Europe from c. 18 kya
The Bichon sample is obviously from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge, and not the Middle East (for if it was , it would have some, or all, CHG and/or the 'Basal Eurasian'. It does not: its WHG, with slight SHG admixture).

But I'm happy to be proven wrong. I just see no evidence for a migration into Europe from the near east / Caucasus in the time period 22-12 kya; contrary to the situations of 42-32 kya, the Neolithic and copper ages

Gravetto-Danubian
12-03-2015, 08:48 PM
Okay now I think I understand the disagreement,

We actually seem to agree on the timing of Haplogroup I moving into Europe. I said 27,000 years ago (see post 3), which is within the range you give (35-25 ky ago). And we certainly agree that the Bichon sample came from the Azilian Culture of northern Spain and southern France.

Where there seems to be some possible disagreement is whether Haplogroups I and J split apart before or after the move into Europe. I will have to give that some more thought.

--------Ken
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wouldn't call it a "disagreement", but an enjoyable academic debate (after straightening out some basic facts)

But yes I'm hopeful for some more upcoming hard data

The other point is that i agree central Asia area appears to have been a homeland for the Northern dispersal of various early human groups and macro haplogroups including IJ and R*

Silesian
12-03-2015, 10:16 PM
Map & time caveats.
Map by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Nordtvedt[]first to pick up EE R1b cluster using only str's
https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupil38/_/rsrc/1444722880800/la-tene/11.png

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1

....the now outdated "15,000 -20,000 years ago .........

Gravetto-Danubian
12-03-2015, 10:59 PM
Map & time caveats.
Map by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Nordtvedt[]first to pick up EE R1b cluster using only str's
https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupil38/_/rsrc/1444722880800/la-tene/11.png

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1

Yes. For some reason I1 experienced a massive bottleneck, and only began to re-expand c. 4.7 ky BP. So 4.7 kyBP is actually the TMRCA of modern lineages of I1, but it actually "formed" 27 ky BP. http://www.yfull.com/tree/I1/

The Y Full site explains a little about these basic conceptual differences, and I think there are on this and other forums some discussions which explain these concepts

pyromatic
12-13-2015, 09:38 AM
Hi All,
I was looking at the modern distributions of the subclades of Haplogroup I, and they make me wonder if Haplogroup I originated in Kurdistan (and stayed there for about 15,000 years before splitting into I1 and I2).

From there, they seem to have gone across Anatolia into the Balkans area, and then some going up the Danube to Germany, etc . Haplogroup I1 seems to have reached Sweden by 7500 years ago (if not before).

Who knows where haplogroup I arose. I think ancient DNA will be the only way to answer this question, based on how frequently ancient peoples moved about.

I don't see how you can place I1 in mesolithic Sweden, as the only mesolithic Scandinavian I we have is an extinct branch of I2. The oldest (para)I1 we have is in neolithic Hungary, suggesting to me that what would eventually give rise to (modern) I1 is to be found on the continent, which is consistent with the modern phylogeography in which basal clades lie to the east of the current strong holds, namely along the south Baltic. My bet is that I1 comes from continental European hunter gatherers who, perhaps by admixture into EEF in the neolithic, are Indo-Europeanized in CWC or GAC and expand north and west from a south Baltic epicenter. Expansion within these cultures is also consistent with the TMRCA for I1 and its various subcludes.

The_Lyonnist
01-20-2016, 05:06 PM
The Kurds have two major haplogroups: I2 (25%) and R1a (19.5%)

The question is: why?

Humanist
01-20-2016, 05:41 PM
The Kurds have two major haplogroups: I2 (25%) and R1a (19.5%)

The question is: why?

Not according to the breakdown here: Kurdish Y-DNA Part XI (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2014/10/kurdish-y-dna-part-xi.html)

gravetti
01-20-2016, 06:02 PM
What's there to not believe ? I2c is not "rooted" in Kurdistan, it is found throughout Europe (including Mesolithic Sweden) - and has several sub- groups - and only I2c2 appears rooted in the Caucasus / Kurdistan region. The other subclades of I2c are "rooted" in central and western Europe.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215?iframe=yresults




My critique is obviously not personal, just instructive and friendly ; and I appreciate your views.

This is what we'll find out in the near future;
I* arrived in Europe from IJ* c. 35 -25 ky BP
I subclades- esp the numerous I2 group- expanded from refugia within Europe from c. 18 kya
The Bichon sample is obviously from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge, and not the Middle East (for if it was , it would have some, or all, CHG and/or the 'Basal Eurasian'. It does not: its WHG, with slight SHG admixture).

But I'm happy to be proven wrong. I just see no evidence for a migration into Europe from the near east / Caucasus in the time period 22-12 kya; contrary to the situations of 42-32 kya, the Neolithic and copper ages

http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v55/n5/full/jhg201030a.html

"I-M170 sporadically occurred in several populations. Individuals carrying I-M170 were mostly from Tataer population."

"I-M170, a European-specific haplogroup, was considered as being of Balkan origin.29, 38 I-M170 lineages subsequently dispersed toward Caucasus region and Central Europe.49, 54 In our samples, I-M170 was observed exclusively in Tataer population at 33.3% frequency."

There is I2a-"Din" in Tatarstan too.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Tatarstan/default.aspx?section=yresults

paulgill
01-20-2016, 09:38 PM
Somewhere around the shores of the BLACK Sea, I guess, both I and J.

epp
01-23-2016, 12:31 AM
Published data indicates that the most recent common ancestor of today's I individuals originated in North West Europe. Haplogroup I itself might have originated elsewhere, but its surviving lineages appear to be of North West European origin. An ancestor of today's I's most recent common ancestor is likely to have arisen anywhere between Kurdistan and Germany, but we don't know whether this ancestor was I*, IJ* or even HIJK* when it moved out of the Kurdistan region.

palamede
01-23-2016, 06:27 AM
The Kurds have two major haplogroups: I2 (25%) and R1a (19.5%)

The question is: why?

The Kurd major haplogroup is J2.

For Middle East statistics, Some old studies (before 2007) mistook about the assignment of STR results to some haplogroups, specially to the haplogroup I2. It has been known since a long time but results are always online and added to more recent statistics often and falsified them.
I guess that even the "kurdish blogspot" (signalled by Humanist) adds them to more recent and better results.

I suppose this error remains online because researcher susceptibility.

Welcome ! Bienvenue à la boule lyonnaise, au jesus et aux traboules.

french : Il est souvent considéré que le "French" échantillon utilisé dans les études autosomales est plus ou moins centré sur Lyon, les résultats des échantillons "French Basque", 'SouthWest France" sont assez différents et les résultats individuels du Nord de la France sont assez différents, intemédiaires avec "South West England", ,"South East England", "South Dutch" or "West German" suivant les régions.

My poor english : It is often considered that the "French" sample used in the autosomal studies is more or less centered about Lyon, the results of the samples "French Basque", 'SouthWest France" are différent enough and the personal résults in North France are also différent enough , intemediary with "South West England", "South East England", "South Dutch" or "West German" according to the régions.

The_Lyonnist
01-27-2016, 12:09 AM
The Kurd major haplogroup is J2.

For Middle East statistics, Some old studies (before 2007) mistook about the assignment of STR results to some haplogroups, specially to the haplogroup I2. It has been known since a long time but results are always online and added to more recent statistics often and falsified them.
I guess that even the "kurdish blogspot" (signalled by Humanist) adds them to more recent and better results.

I suppose this error remains online because researcher susceptibility.

That people should take care to update the maps Eupedia, then.

Messier 67
04-02-2018, 03:22 PM
Are you aware that haplogroup I2 was found in Central Europe c. 14000 years ago, and likely arrived ~ 25-35000 years ago?

But if you'd said something about IJ* in Kurdistan c. 38000 y BP, then yes

IJ is the Mt. Ararat Story. I/I2 went to Europe. J2 went to Mesopotamia and beyond. J1 went to southern Arabia and Africa.