View Full Version : The Tribe Within- Search of DNA Tribe R1b-L513

Mag Uidhir 6
12-01-2015, 09:49 PM
If you haven't read this book, you should.

The Tribe Within- Search of DNA Tribe R1b-L513 by Anthony Barrett has been updated several times as more and more new NGS data becomes available. I have read the early version and have collaborated with Anthony regarding my pet theories and project data. Specifically, some of his ideas have significant relevance to S5668 folk. So the tie between L193 and FGC9822 has some new ground to explore: Dalraida battles with Vikings, trade and alliances to Donegal Bay, a mariner heritage....and more.

The Tribe Within

Search for DNA Tribe R1b-L513

By Anthony Murphy Barrett

Copyright — January 2014 —

Updated: April 2014 — January 2015 — March 2015 — May 2015 — October 2015

Anthony Murphy Barrett

Version: 2.4

You can peruse a sample here...https://www.smashwords.com/extreader/read/401207/1/the-tribe-within

12-05-2015, 07:52 PM
I have long suspected a possible link in L193 to Gallgaidheal. This would explain high frequency in the Hebrides (source?), and then the later rise to prominence in Ayrshire/Galloway.

03-09-2016, 10:33 AM
First, I’m sorry if I do some booboos. It's just only cosmetic.
So read this carefully knowing that my native language is French.
I know that what’s following will force you to modify some of your beliefs about the origins of some Airghíalla.

Since now, the only theory about L513 postulates that they were descended from survivors of Veneti (Brittany - current Morbihan) genocide by Julius Caesar.
They emigrated in the Celtic Sea and had spread around the coast in a dozen boats, each one being an arche of exodus.
This story was historically corroborated by Ptolemy who had suspected the survival of Veneti promised to genocide by Julius Caesar.
It was believable ... but rather against-intuitive, knowing and known historically memory, the crucible of Crombrugghe had no direct link with continental Brittany located at 500 km from Ghent.

There probably was therefore a "bug" somewhere ... logically expressed by several Crombrugghe connoisseurs of their own history.
It was necessary to investigate further to understand from where was this apparent mismatch coming and to find a more refined truth better connected with their historical reality.

The first doubt came when the genetic reality forced to create a new clade determined by the Z16340 marker (now R1b1a2a1a2c1b1a at ISOGG).

This new Clade Z16340 has been made through the Crombrugghe contribution and that of a Swedish family (Nystrom/Jonsson).
It was not obvious to accept (some are still stuck in their certainties) for the L513 islands, too certain of Breton exclusivity of their Celtic origins.
Because of the contention that the L513 were necessarily Veneti origin (Armorican federation), we had to look further to realize it Z16340 group held the real key to the logical explanation of ethnicity Crombrugghe.
The affirmation of the L513 origin of the Veneti was not false but with a Belgian family and a Scandinavian family, it was now certain that it did not cover the entire spectrum of L513 genetics.
The Crombrugghe brought a great light to the understanding of L513 deep roots and, on the same time, a scathing refutation of the Breton exclusivity of L513.

With this improved accuracy, data were transmitted to Greg Magoon, an ISOGG specialist, Mike Walsh, L513 also responsible and key person of the Celtic branch at FTDNA and Alex Williamson, a specialist in deciphering the genetic P312 belonging as the "Little Scottish Cluster" of L513 group.
They have analyzed separately and all agreed: The result required the creation of a new clade.
Alex Williamson organized the placement of this new clade named Z16340 on his tree, which allowed to know of related families in this branch.
Here it is: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=514&star=false

It was necessary therefore to find the historical link ... and once again, we must thank Claudius Ptolemaeus (90-168) for its lighting.
Ptolemy mentioned the Menapii & Cauci tribes in the southeast of Ireland.
... Now the Menappii (or Manapi) were nothing other than the Menapii (True Crombrugghe ancestors) of Ghent (actual eastern Flanders) and surrounding areas.
The Cauci had little direct Menapii nearby coastal tribe living on the side of the current town of Koksijde (Belgian coast. Probably a little island at 58 BC).
None Cauci (Chauques) have not yet been found ... but they would be in County Kildare southwest of Dublin (Mac Murrough?) And were genetically and culturally very close Menapii and therefore perhaps also Z16340.
Note that both the Fermanagh, Monaghan (Southwest of the Ui Neill area) and Kildare County (north of Wexford) are considered originally Irish on this map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Www.wesleyjohnston.com-users-ireland-maps-historical-map1300.gif
This demonstrates the deep roots of Menapii & Cauci in these areas.
Arrived in Ireland some Menapii migrated to the northwest of the country and founded the "Contae Fhear Manach" (Note "Mana" The Menapii founded the first colony of Fermanagh and have integrated the noun in their name and that their god Manannan, god of the sea and the elements (time, weather).
"Fir Manach" could be translated as "Son of Manach".
One can imagine that their intention, beyond their beliefs, was an honorary menapian reference to their origins.
Manannan was the Celtic equivalent of the Greek god Poseidon or the Roman god Neptune.
He was omnipresent in Celtic mythology (Isle of Man, Ireland, Wales, Scotland ... and also in Menapii).
The noun "Mana" also indicates that it is very possible that the mythology of Manannan is related the Menapii area and the exodus of Menapii to Ireland.

The settlement of the Isle of Man (noun always the same ...) would also have been menapian (some Manx have Norse Viking ancestry but the Vikings came to Man at the 9th century when Irish Menapii descendants colonized Man, 5 centuries before) and the original language used by Menapii was moreover near Gaelic dialect close from the one of Fermanagh/Monanghan area and probably also from Manx ("Gaelg" in Manx).
An example: http://www.manxmusic.com/audioplayer/
No genetic evidence at this moment but it could be sought on the Maddrell (last Manx locutor) side.

Why have lingered on County Fermanagh currently located in western Ulster? Because this is where was the key of this puzzle!

To Seek the key of Crombrugghe origins in Belgium might have been too controversial because of sensitivities between Celtics and Germanics -very sensitive issues in Flanders- for the legitimization of their historical origin.
The proof is that Menapii are still too often considered in total confusion with the Flemish or the Franks by some historians.

Here are the differences:
- The Menapii were the first occupants of western and eastern current Flanders ... They were totally Celtic and spoke a Gaelic dialect probably close from Fermanagh & Monangan one.
The Menapii were the northernmost tribe of Belgian Gaul.
- The Flemishes are a people from a mix between the original Celtics and Germanics occupiers (from actual north Rhine Holland).
They are bound by the practice of their language (Germanic), the Flemish.
- The Franks are rather considered as Germanics (both French and Dutch speaking) ... except for the nobility where Celtics and Germanics are fairly represented but where French language still continues to dominate.

Going back to Fermanagh, here is the famous awaited proof: This is the most emblematic family of that county (The Maguire or McGuire or Mac Guire) is placed in the same tribe Z16340... Yes, it's you, dear. :)
"Fir Manach” 'the men of the Manaig' (probably the Menapii of Ptolemy's Geography) was their significant area before the Maguires."
Not only the presence of this family under Z16340 confirmed their menapian origin but also, in return by narratives legitimizing of Ptolemy, it obviously confirmed the Menapii "celtitude"... and Z16340 IS this famous Menapian clade.

An indirect presumption has strengthened this evidence: The presence of a Swedish family (Nystrom/Jonsson) (...Yes, it's you, Bjorn :)) beside Crombrugghe.
Why??? Looking at the country's position of Menapii, one from Ireland and one from Sweden, we can notice that the menapian area is equidistant (about 1000km) by sea with Ireland and Sweden, while the Veneti were 500km southwest, so much closer to the Irish coast.
The geographical logic has then spoken for history.
The puzzle was becoming obvious and historical sequences were assembled themselves.
Julius had ordered three genocides of fierce resistance between year 56 and year 57: One for the Veneti (just missed), then one of the Eburones (probably no survivors), and finally that one of the Menapii, true last to resist fiercely against the omnipotence of Caesar.
Against the Menapii, ultimate and last battle of Caesar’s Gaulish Wars (Five cohorts, so 30000 Legionnaires against a population of only 65000 Menapii men, women and children included) ... but their genocide failed anyway thanks the protection of their natural marsh, their islets (at that time, the sea was far inland, almost to Ghent), their dense forests and navy.
Incidentally, the Menapii Navy is not historically known because not recorded by historians of Caesar. The Menapii had always refused any diplomatic contact with Rome dominatrix. Not even an ambassador, which deprived Menapii of historical evidences. The menapian navy existed yet and would even be quite large since traded by sea with their neighbors Frisians, Britons, Ambers and with the Scandinavians ... and even up with Rome via their Veneti allies from Armorican confederation.
Nothing to do, then, with Menapii too often reductively represented in their small rural hut: They were actually very sophisticated and their society was very much better structured and more civilized than might be perceived to some historians.

However, barely a year later, while weakened Menapii were still trying to recover from the suffering inflicted by Caesar, Germanic tribes seized the opportunity to invade them.
It is this invasion that caused the "fed-up" feeling from a part of Menapii tribe who did not support the idea of being dominated (You, Maguires... :)). They preferred to escape the Germanics thru an exodus by sea under the protection of Manannan, their god of the sea, to go towards the still to be colonized Ireland ... and a small part of them, as evidenced by the presence of the Nystrom/Jonsson family under Z16340, headed for Scandinavia where the native occupants were still few.
So, by this, Nystrom/Jonsson can be sure they are authentic descendants of Celtic Menapians settlers in Scandinavia… and not descendants of slaves as many Scandinavians Celtics.

This disintegration of the menapian society on the continent caused the decline of Gaelic language in Flanders and its disappearance by assimilation while Menapii settlers around Celtic Sea parties fiercely retained their original traditions.
The Crombrugghe are clearly direct descendants of continental Menapii. The menapian clade Z16340 is now (2016) defined as the R1b1a2a1a2c1b1a ISOGG (International Society of Genetic Genealogy).
Each family under Z16340 boasts legitimately thanks to this evidence of a history of over two millennia.
This interesting detour was needed to break some barriers of disbelief.
One issue with this: Should we, strengthened by the evidence, request corrections to all the manipulators of history claiming that Menapii were Germanic?
The best proof building to demolish their improbable certainties would discover another Z16340 menapian family ... and that is certainly possible in the Belgian nobility composed of very ancient and well documented families.
I think for example to some families whose ancestors were part of the “Franc de Bruges” nobility.

This is the first time that a genetic analysis on Menapii was performed, so it’s understandable that the building of this clade was a bit chaotic.

I hope that with this thread you've learned a little more about Menapii.

Meanwhile, if you want to know more about the "Menapii connection", read this book a menapian Irish:
Despite some errors, this book is well researched and well worth reading as it is pleasant to feel the deep attachment of Norman Mongan to his menapian roots.
Norman Mongan, without genetic testing was in fact right before FTDNA.

Tell this the other potential Menapii males... and be proud of your deep origins.

Mag Uidhir 6
03-09-2016, 10:29 PM
Thanks BdCdL! Great insight and a nice tie in for Z16340. I wonder if some amount of coordination or collaboration occurred between the Menapii and the Veneti? I understand the distance between the two regions physically but given the S5668 associations it seems likely that the grouping of a joint effort between the L193 tribes (Veneti) and the FGC9775 tribes (Menapii) may have gathered to travel as one force. Interesting.

03-10-2016, 07:43 AM
Thank you for your return. I think you are right.
In fact, what I've written above is the minimum.
Maybe that the Menapian connection could be the Whole S5668.
I've this intuition since I've read the book of Morgan Mongan.
This book is tremendously well documented. The result of 15 years of researches.
Buy it, read it ... and you'll probably agree with me.

03-18-2016, 01:18 AM
This was VERY interesting. Have ordered the book.

I wonder if the nautical background of the Menapii might explain the unusual fact that the Lords of Fermanagh (the Maguires) maintained an inland navy of considerable size? That might be considered another circumstantial element in the theory connecting the Menapii to Fermanagh.

03-18-2016, 04:31 PM
From a chart recently posted on another thread, showing the testing rates so far for various L21 clades (DF21, DF49, L513 etc), L513 was shown highest by far in Scotland and Ireland. In Scotland it was overall the 2nd most common subclade in the chart, after DF49. The showing of L513 was much lower in England and Wales. Would this pattern fit with the Menapii theory? I must admit to being totally ignorant about them, despite being L513 myself :)

Mag Uidhir 6
04-04-2016, 09:33 PM
Jon I believe you are correct and it would indeed fit with the overall Menapii view.

Here is a direct quote from Patrick MacAuley responding to an email I sent out to my project members:

"Regarding the distant origins of the Maguires, l lean toward the theory that the Maguires (at least Donn Mor and his ancestors) were descended from a tribe that was already living in Ulster prior to the Collas' conquest (c.331) and were subjugated by the Airgialla, but over the centuries gradually rose in prominence, until Donn Carrach swept to the leadership of Fermanagh. (This wouldn't exclude the possibility that the Menapii had settled in Fermanagh prior to 300 AD.)"

Now, to just get more folks SNP tested, the drum I am currently beating.

04-05-2016, 04:05 PM
Thanks Brad. Would this include the Fir Manach?


Mag Uidhir 6
04-05-2016, 04:23 PM
Yes Jon, I think the Fir Manach are indeed, Z16340.

04-05-2016, 06:09 PM
...and would this also fit into related groupings in Scotland? I guess it's that old, right?

04-06-2016, 10:37 AM
Here we are... A third Swedish there: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=514&star=false

Mag Uidhir 6
04-06-2016, 04:56 PM
Given the Menapii trading/raiding outposts in Ireland, Man, Wales and Scotland, I'd venture to guess that a mix of S5668/A7/Z16340 filled all those positions. Rathlin island proved DF21 presence far earlier than previously thought. I suspect L513 bones are just a matter of time to discovery. That is a firm dream for us!

05-06-2016, 10:37 AM
Hello Group,

I am descended from Jacobus Lefebure who was born about 1655, married, and had children in Lauwe, West-Flanders in the 1680s. He died in Lauwe in 1733. I have ordered the Big-Y test from Family Tree DNA, but in addition have run my FTDNA Y-111 numbers through the NEVGEN haplo predictor. At different times, NEVGEN predicted that I am R1b L21>DF13>ZZ10, and R1b L21>S1026>Z16886.

I've been reading that L21 most likely is Celtic, and it is interesting that my most distant ancestor Jacobus Lefebure lived in Lauwe, now part of Menen, an area where the Menapii tribe lived.

I thought that you might be interested in another potential Celtic L21 from West-Flanders - I will receive my Big-Y results in a few weeks. FTDNA # 481082.

Olivier C
05-29-2016, 08:15 PM
Dear BdCdL! I was just reading the Menapian Quest by Norman Mongan when I came across your very interesting post. Research into our early history in Belgium, the Belgae of late iron age and Roman days, and the Salian Franks of the early Middle Ages, is a topic I have been fascinated with for a while now.

I am very glad that the Menapian clade has been uncovered by your efforts. I suspected that the whole southern area of West-Flanders (the Pagus Mempiscus) and most of East-Flanders, where your family originated, could show more L-21+ than we are shown now from the Brabant project. Norman Mongan for one relates about villages in the vicinity of Ghent which up to a couple of centuries ago were noted for having predominately red-haired people (red hair is found in all three Celtic branches, although it is most common in the R1b-L21 branch). Of course also the many archeological finds in the area support this, next to hints in toponymy and family names (Menen, Ménève, Minnebrugghe...).

(The Chauci, who traveled along with the Menapii to settle on the Irish westcoast, are btw probably associated with R1b-S21, which is still very present in Flanders. There is toponymic evidence for their settlements in the middle of Menapian territory (example: Kalken) which is another pointer to the fact that these tribes seem to have gotten along pretty well.)

Regarding the presence of the Menapian subclade and other R1b-L21+ in Sweden, if you look at the maps drawn by Frithjof Nanssen and Konrad Miller based on descriptions of Pomponius Mela in 44 AD which you can view both here on wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomponius_Mela).
on the Scythian coast, east to the mound of the Vistula there are "Belcae" living along the coast. According to Pytheas these were inhabitants from the British isles (we know that Belgae -the Atrebates for one- had sizable settlements there) that settled there. Possibly attracted by the amber trade? Just to show that slavery wasn't the only source of Celtic DNA in and around Scandinavia.

Regarding the sensitivity of the issue in Flanders, I hope you do not form your opinion on a loud and often embarrassing minority of "internet separatist militants". The Celtic past is pretty evident to many, we have groups of young and less young people re-enacting the Celtic past, such as the people from Gallische Hoeve in Destelbergen who rebuilt a historically correct Menapian dwelling, and friends of mine from the coastal south who re-enact as the Morini, a tribe closely related to the Menapii. Also, I recently read a text from the 9th century on the invading Norsemen, and it stated there that the Flemish people consisted at that time of Menapii and Suevi. Remember that Tiberius Caesar transplanted about 40000 Suevi here to live along the Menapii, an amount about as big as the Menapian tribe itself. Placenames like Zwevezele and Zwevegem refer to them.

05-27-2017, 01:14 PM
I am interested in purchasing the book by A M Barrett - DNA Tribe R1B - L513. Does it have an ISBN number, please? Thank you.

05-27-2017, 01:23 PM
PS. I am interested in tracing information concerning the Quinns of Antrim - family members on my mother's side - and would appreciate any information or links available. Thank you.

05-27-2017, 01:31 PM
Excuse me asking, but is the surname related to the late Marcel François Marie Joseph Lefebvre; founder of the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) circa 1970 - Switzerland?

Mag Uidhir 6
06-03-2017, 01:27 AM

Send e an email at [email protected] I can send you his 2015 updated copy in pdf.


10-07-2020, 05:02 PM
I believe zz10 is the Menapii where the mangan, Mongan, McCracken (naughton sea god), McClure (mac Lir) reside along with the Laigin tribes. The Maguires were late entries into Fermanagh. The move of the Monach into the area that was to become Fermanagh was in the 2nd century. Maguires came to Fermanagh after the norman conquest and were likely gallowglasses.