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View Full Version : I am No Longer reccommending 23 for Genetic Geneaology



Kwheaton
12-02-2015, 05:01 PM
I am temporarily suspending my recommendation to use 23andme for genetic genealogy. This is based on several factors but the most important are the fact that it is functioning poorly and there has been a concerted effort by management to disregard the genealogist in the design and implementation of its new format. When it is functioning I will make a final determination.

Kelly Wheaton

DMXX
12-02-2015, 05:09 PM
First-time readers on this forum unfamiliar with the current debacle following their changes might benefit from more elaboration here.

What specific set of factors have affected your change in endorsement the most?

C J Wyatt III
12-02-2015, 05:46 PM
23andMe v4 and v2 chipset tests are very incompatible when comparing with kits from other vendors on GEDmatch. The only reason in my mind to have a V4 chipset kit it to have something to use when the only kit that the other person has is a V4 kit. Even then, the comparisons are still lacking.

My matching methodology is a bit out of the mainstream in that I find short segment matching consistent and reliable. Say, I have both a Family Finder and 23and Me V4 chip kit on GEDmatch for my mother. If I find someone else who has the same situation, using my short segment parameters, a comparison of the V4 kits will have about half the total of matching segments as a comparison of the two FF kits. If you compare a V4 with a FF kit, forget it!

Jack Wyatt

vettor
12-02-2015, 05:57 PM
23andMe v4 and v2 chipset tests are very incompatible when comparing with kits from other vendors on GEDmatch. The only reason in my mind to have a V4 chipset kit it to have something to use when the only kit that the other person has is a V4 kit. Even then, the comparisons are still lacking.

My matching methodology is a bit out of the mainstream in that I find short segment matching consistent and reliable. Say, I have both a Family Finder and 23and Me V4 chip kit on GEDmatch for my mother. If I find someone else who has the same situation, using my short segment parameters, a comparison of the V4 kits will have about half the total of matching segments as a comparison of the two FF kits. If you compare a V4 with a FF kit, forget it!

Jack Wyatt

Hi

The only reason that 23andme went from V3 chip to V4 was it was cheaper with less SNP's.
This results in theory means you get less matches which mean more value for these matches.

but it also means , the ydna tree is less reliable.........until a month ago my haplogroup sat under K group...........I now sit under F group ............K group does not exist any-more in 23andme as stated to me ...............I assume this would apply to R people as well

leonardo
12-02-2015, 08:10 PM
I have had no new matches since they announced their changes nearly a month ago. I have to assume the $199 is cost prohibitive for those interested mainly, or solely, in genealogy.

paulgill
12-03-2015, 12:35 AM
I have posted the following On My Beginners Guide to Genetic Genealogy. I will be posting on the 23andme thread here and on other forums and formats I frequent. Apologies in advance for those that will see it multiple times.

"I am temporarily suspending my recommendation to use 23andme for genetic genealogy. This is based on several factors but the most important are the fact that it is functioning poorly and there has been a concerted effort by management to disregard the genealogist in the design and implementation of its new format. When it is functioning I will make a final determination."

:(

As most of us already know that 23andMe is in business only to collect Genetic and Health information on its customers to use or sell it for Insurance and pharmaceutical purposes, anything what you find useful at 23andMe is only a bribe to get you in. Most who will want to collect any information on you will be willing to pay for it too, but in the case of 23andMe it also gets away with charging you for the same.

dp
12-03-2015, 05:05 PM
For some reason when I switch profiles, and try to do something with another kit, it switches them back to the first kit.
As it is currently performing I wasted money tested the second person.
If it keeps up I'm going to tweet ole' St. Nick to give them a lump of coal and a switch for Christmas.
dp :-)

botoole60611
12-03-2015, 06:58 PM
I agree with Kelly about not recommending 23andMe.

As a DNA tester since 2007, and having used 23andMe, FTDNA, and Ancestry, I am finding Ancestry the best for the present for its integration of family trees and DNA matches. FTDNA is best for those who are interested in the chromosome relationships.

When it comes to raw figures, I have approximately 6,000 matches on Ancestry, with 84 verified tree matches, and another 150 matches on trees that are solid. Ancestry also allows me to share my results with people who match me and vice versa, so that I see what results these sharing matches have, which is great for triangulation. And some of my discoveries about my family quite revealing. DNA does not lie.

With FTDNA I have 1,060 matches which I can see the chromosome data and email addresses of my matches, and some have trees.

On 23andMe, I have 1,000 people I am sharing genomes with, out of 1,600 matches; and the having to write the matches to get them to agree to share data has become tiresome.

I used to give 23andMe to relatives. This year I purchased an additional 5 kits from Ancestry.

vettor
12-03-2015, 07:19 PM
I agree with Kelly about not recommending 23andMe.

As a DNA tester since 2007, and having used 23andMe, FTDNA, and Ancestry, I am finding Ancestry the best for the present for its integration of family trees and DNA matches. FTDNA is best for those who are interested in the chromosome relationships.

When it comes to raw figures, I have approximately 6,000 matches on Ancestry, with 84 verified tree matches, and another 150 matches on trees that are solid. Ancestry also allows me to share my results with people who match me and vice versa, so that I see what results these sharing matches have, which is great for triangulation. And some of my discoveries about my family quite revealing. DNA does not lie.

With FTDNA I have 1,060 matches which I can see the chromosome data and email addresses of my matches, and some have trees.

On 23andMe, I have 1,000 people I am sharing genomes with, out of 1,600 matches; and the having to write the matches to get them to agree to share data has become tiresome.

I used to give 23andMe to relatives. This year I purchased an additional 5 kits from Ancestry.

I agree with your first line as well.

But many do not have any option of ancestry as it is restricted to certain countries. Which is why it puzzles me that you have so many matches

botoole60611
12-03-2015, 09:58 PM
I agree with your first line as well.

But many do not have any option of ancestry as it is restricted to certain countries. Which is why it puzzles me that you have so many matches

I am 50% New England colonial going back to the mid-1600's and 1/8 Acadian. Acadian / Cajun matches are 25% of my total match group.

Táltos
12-22-2015, 07:01 AM
Just noticed this on the "old" 23andme forum. A staff member posted:
“A message from Anne to the genealogy community”
Dear Community,

I want to share our vision for the transition to the new site experience and address some of the issues that have been voiced by the genealogy community since our October launch of the new experience that has been made available to some customers.

The new experience is a complete redesign and rebuild. We took the feedback and experience we learned over the last nine years and used that to rethink every aspect of the site. We also built out the infrastructure to be able to support growth into the millions of customers and enable a faster site experience. We are extremely excited about the new experience and the ability for us to innovate and grow in this experience.

First off, the genealogy community is extremely important to me and the entire 23andMe team. Helping people understand their roots through their DNA has always been important and will always be important to us. We are a team that has pioneered innovation in this field with relative finder, ancestry composition, and our neanderthal feature. Our focus is on innovation. We will continue to invest in innovation and develop products that reflect that.

Second, complying with FDA requirements necessitated many changes to our business. Transitioning from an unregulated experience into a regulated experience is complicated and we recognize that many of you are still not on the new experience. That complication comes in part from the fact that we have different products in the US and internationally; we have four different versions of the genotyping chip which we have used over time; we have multi-profile accounts that may all be on different chip versions. Those multiple versions and combinations of versions make the process of transition complicated. It will take time. We are working incredibly hard to get everyone on a uniform experience.

For those of you on the new experience, we also recognize that the changes to our forum and specifically moderation of the forums is new for many of you. The requirements of moderation of our forums in the new experience is due to our need to comply with FDA rules that apply to all FDA regulated companies and require that we only provide, or sponsor, content which is consistent with our FDA authorized product label.

Third, we understand that there are features in the new experience you want that are either not there yet or have been removed. There are a number of features we plan to roll out in 2016 that we know you want. Some of the most important are the download feature, full IBD, surname enrichment in DNA Relatives, and viewing full ancestry reports for shares. We have every intention of making these happen in 2016. There are also a number of new features planned for 2016. We also realize the Countries of Ancestry feature was popular but we eliminated it. It did not meet our privacy standards. Critical to every customer is making sure they have a right to privacy. I understand that this was an important feature to customers in this community, but our first priority is making sure we respect the privacy of all customers.

Fourth, we know that the increase in price is challenging for some of you. 23andMe needs to be a sustainable company and we need to be a company that leads innovation. I will continue to always push my research team to develop the best and most innovative products. We are the ones who developed relative finder, ancestry composition and the neanderthal feature. Others followed suit. But we are the source of innovation and we will continue to be. At $199 we remain in the realm of affordable, but are able to aim for profitability and ensure that we can continue to fund innovation.

Last, we have incredible respect for the vocal feedback of our customers and their desires. We can not win all of you over all the time. But I guarantee we will always be listening, we will always be striving to be better. We aim to be the best and nothing less than that. We have worked hard to develop a path for DTC genetics with FDA so we can bring back health features that we know many ancestry and non-ancestry customers want. The combined ancestry and health product has far more appeal to people and will enable a much larger community of people to come together. The more people in the 23andMe community, the more we can improve the ancestry experience and the more we can make meaningful discoveries in health.

2016 will be a busy year making sure that we complete the transition and bring out the features you want. You can be assured that our core principles are the same and will never change -- our business is based on you, our customer, and we are listening.

Warm wishes,
Anne
23andMe CEO
https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/41854/

Táltos
01-04-2016, 05:24 AM
Well today I decided to have a look over there to see if I have new matches. Several matches when I click on their profile it states that the profile is not found. I can send them a message, but no where to click to share genomes.

Also there doesn't seem to be any new matches that I can tell. On the other hand it appears that all of my kits have lost anywhere from approx. 100-140 matches. I read others have received invite to share, and when they looked the person was not there. They then were able to look at that matches profile and it says they are sharing? https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/41643/last_page/

I wish everyone was transitioned together. Honestly though I don't know if that was possible, but it seems that this is taking a long time. Really I wish they just left the old site alone!

BalkanKiwi
01-04-2016, 05:40 AM
Well today I decided to have a look over there to see if I have new matches. Several matches when I click on their profile it states that the profile is not found. I can send them a message, but no where to click to share genomes.

Also there doesn't seem to be any new matches that I can tell. On the other hand it appears that all of my kits have lost anywhere from approx. 100-140 matches. I read others have received invite to share, and when they looked the person was not there. They then were able to look at that matches profile and it says they are sharing? https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/41643/last_page/

I wish everyone was transitioned together. Honestly though I don't know if that was possible, but it seems that this is taking a long time. Really I wish they just left the old site alone!

At this rate they may not finish transitioning everyone until the end of the year :behindsofa:

T0M
08-11-2016, 02:17 PM
I'm agree with you!

Cellachán
08-11-2016, 08:15 PM
I am 50% New England colonial going back to the mid-1600's and 1/8 Acadian. Acadian / Cajun matches are 25% of my total match group.

I feel you, in a way. I am about 1/32 Ashkenazi...and most of my relative matches on 23andme are reflective of said ancestry. Also at least 75% of names on the "surname" view are all the "cohens" and "katz"es of the world. I hear that's fairly normal on 23, for even people with a few drops of blood from certain "inbred" groups to have it appear to dwarf their other ancestries in Relative finder.

Still, I'd say even now 23 is best for first-time gene testers. It's best I think with short-term ancestry (especially once you learn how to interpret the "broadly" groups within the context of known ancestry) and it also still gives haplogroups.

I'd say from there, AncestryDNA would be the better second-step. Then of course, FTDNA and all that jazz....

geebee
09-03-2016, 12:55 AM
Today I finally was transitioned to "The New Experience". I have one word: **gag**.

leonardo
09-03-2016, 01:26 AM
Today I finally was transitioned to "The New Experience". I have one word: **gag**.

I am not a huge fan of the new format, but there a few worthy features. That said, it takes some time to get used to it. Things are more difficult to locate.

geebee
09-03-2016, 07:11 AM
Yes, it does have a few worthwhile features, but it also gave up some very good ones. For example, it now appears to be unable to distinguish been fully identical segments and half identical segments. With all five of my siblings on the site, that distinction was a very important one to me.

Also, there doesn't seem to be a chromosome view for Ancestry Composition. They're still attributing a tiny sliver of my Native American ancestry to my father -- which is strange, given that he has no such ancestry himself. Using TOE's chromosome view of AC, I could tell that what was being attributed to my father was a single segment. Four of his offspring actually inherited the segment, and for one of us the segment had a maternal attribution -- which is what it should have had.

The segment was located on chromosome 15. I happen to also share that segment with a couple of cousins who are also descended from the same Native American ancestor, plus I passed the segment on to my daughter. The only thing is, chromosome 15 is one of a handful of chromosomes on which my father shares nothing with my daughter.

So when I inherited the segment, it was from my father; but when I passed it on, it was from my mother?

The only thing I can figure is that this "child phasing" done on a parent can sometimes allow that parent to "pick up" Ancestry that isn't really theirs. If did this phasing using more than just one child, it would help. There are six of us, but they still only use one of us for the child phasing.

There are several other issues. Chromosome 9 is one that my daughter inherited entirely from my father, but it now looks as if it was partly from my mother because it's showing a small break. Only, it turns out that the comparison between my father and me is also showing that same break. The "break" actually does not exist. It's just another example of where they've botched something that had been working perfectly well before.

EDIT: I took a closer look at the supposed "break" on chromosome 9. I supposedly begins at position 135032890 and ends at position 136275141. It includes 616 SNPs. Out of these, my father has just two "no calls". But in both cases I'm heterozygous for the SNP, so if these had been called for my father there would have been no basis for finding a discordance (which is the only way a "break" could be identified).

There is, however, one discordant SNP in the region. That's at position 135139064 -- which is something like 51 SNPs into the "break". There are no mismatches on the previous 50 SNPs of the break, or on the subsequent 565 SNPs.

The bottom line is that there doesn't seem to be any good reason for showing a "break" in a chromosome comparison between parent and child.

Táltos
09-10-2016, 03:42 AM
Well I have finally been "transitioned". Sounds like something sci-fi. Anyway I don't think I still have all of my messages?

Never mind you can see all of your messages by switching profiles. I realized that not all messages went directly to me. I can see my mom's kit now has 1,592 matches. Way up from the 500 some last time I looked on the old site. Which was weird as she had over 1,000 matches before all this started.

Hmm, it says that my mom and daughter share 5 ancestries. One of them is East African. Yet my daughter did not inherit any East African. I show it in my profile.

No chromosome painting? I know change is hard, but I'm not so sure about this update. I need more time to look around the new site...

Táltos
09-10-2016, 03:10 PM
This morning in looking at this one improvement at least. Those who you are open sharing with they give you a match list of who else you have in common with them.

Has anyone seen any links back to the old discussions on their old site? I liked the old way better. :(

Táltos
09-10-2016, 03:41 PM
AH HA! Found chromosome painting thank goodness!! Scroll down to the bottom middle of the Ancestry Composition page. Click on the icon that says View Scientific Details. In here you can once again look at the modes. Now it says 90% Conservative, then 80%, 70%, 60%, and finally 50% Speculative. The 50% Speculative is the default view for AC.

EDIT-Scientific Details can also be clicked on in the middle of the top of the page to the right of Summary.

Pegasusphm1
12-18-2016, 02:23 AM
Sorry my initial post was duplicated twice. disregard #22

Pegasusphm1
12-18-2016, 02:24 AM
As with the originator of this thread, agree I can't recommend 23andMe. I just received my results the other evening. Comparing 23andMe with FTDNA and Ancestry test kits, 23andMe are off. FTDNA and Ancestry are close with only a few percentage difference between regions. 23andMe missing some regions entirely. I did upload 23andMe test kit with Ancestry test kit to Gedmatch for side by side comparison. 23andMe is missing X-chromosome markers. Some difference in individual matches which I expected, also with comparison with other known matches. Using Gedmatch heritage tests, they both appeared close percentage wise, while Ancestry test kit showed more populations. Tools aren't anything to brag about, FTDNA has enhanced their Family Finder web tool console past what 23andMe offers. Roughly 9000 matches on Ancestry, 5600 matches on FTDNA, only 1400 from 23andMe. 23andMe confirmed my Haplogroups with FTDNA already tested. The Neanderthal stuff I see as stupid marketing gimmick, and frankly a waste of corporate resources. If they are going to waste time on this at least market something similar to archaic DNA heat map offered on Gedmatch, would be more fun and educational.

I know their main shtick has been genetic health stuff, but they got cranks slammed in the door by the Feds and had to take down that portion down for awhile. Frankly for $10 bucks I can run my own at Prometheus and let my doctor figure it out.

I will say 23andMe lab processing was fast, I did like the website showing station check-in for the test kit during the process. Saves phone calls to customer service asking when are my results are going to be done. FTDNA sure could take a lesson from 23andMe there.