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Peter MacDonald
12-12-2015, 11:19 PM
Hello everyone,

I see much discussion on many different branches of L21, however I have not see much debate/discussion on L1335/S530 and L1065's origin. I am currently personally most interested in the L1065 branch at this point in time.

Hoping group members could either pass along their thoughts or perhaps point me to a source/website that would be focused on L1065's origin.

Thank you.

WilliamAllan
01-07-2016, 06:46 PM
Wish I could help. I'm L1335 myself and I'm considering testing for some downstream markers. I'm a close match STR-wise with a fellow of the same surname as mine who is S7370+, so may test for this marker soon.

lgmayka
01-07-2016, 07:03 PM
Here is the R1b-L1335 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L1335/default.aspx?section=yresults). A friend of mine took the Yseq Scots Panel (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=4830) and ended up L743+ . Here is a 2-year-old discussion of L743 (http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/Analysis/R_L21_Analysis_L743.html). Unfortunately, YFull has only one example of R-L743 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-L743/), so a TMRCA estimate is not available. But its parent, R-S764, has a TMRCA of 1250 years (http://yfull.com/tree/R-S764/).

FTDNA now offers an R1b-L1065 SNP Pack for $119.
---
Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
CTS6838, PF5236, PF5721, F144, A2120, FGC17059, BY3145, S764, A2297, A5919, BY3133, FGC28987, FGC25396, BY144, BY150, FGC28989, BY3134, Y15476, FGC32576, BY3136, BY154, FGC28993, A2296, FGC32902, FGC28994, BY3137, Y12534, FGC28995, BY153, FGC32904, BY3140, BY3141, FGC32905, BY3144, FGC32907, FGC23770, BY3148, A1141, FGC28998, FGC32910, BY3149, A30, A33, A34, A35, A37, A718, A848, A849, A850, A851, A853, A855, A856, A861, FGC10116, FGC10117, FGC10121, FGC10124, FGC10125, FGC10127, FGC17603, FGC17830, FGC18441, FGC18447, FGC19437, FGC19633, FGC19637, FGC19639, FGC19642, FGC19643, FGC19782, FGC20021, L743, S690, S691, S695, S697, S703, S756, S7370, Z16326, Z16328, Z16329, Z16330, Z16331, Z17611, Z17612, Z17613, Z17614, Z17619, Z17620, Z18058, Y15102, Y15478, Y15477, L1065, Z16325, S744, Z17615, Z17617, S7372, FGC18451, Y17075, Y16252

Includes the following SNPs that are NOT on the haplotree:
Z8432, A5306, BY3135, A953, A2118, BY3138, A2117, BY3139, FGC31128, A2119, BY2747, A1321, BY3142, BY3143, BY65, BY3147, A2116, A854, A859, CTS4554, CTS4931, FGC21480, FGC21484, FGC21491, S6198, S701, S709, S7361, S7362, S7364, A7367, A5291, S9767, A1539, A5911, A1541, S7367, Y16858
---

Peter MacDonald
01-07-2016, 10:36 PM
Wish I could help. I'm L1335 myself and I'm considering testing for some downstream markers. I'm a close match STR-wise with a fellow of the same surname as mine who is S7370+, so may test for this marker soon.

William, two tests you might be interested in are FTDNA's L1065 Pack or YSEQ's L1335 Scots Panel.

Peter MacDonald
01-07-2016, 10:40 PM
Here is the R1b-L1335 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L1335/default.aspx?section=yresults). A friend of mine took the Yseq Scots Panel (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=4830) and ended up L743+ . Here is a 2-year-old discussion of L743 (http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/Analysis/R_L21_Analysis_L743.html). Unfortunately, YFull has only one example of R-L743 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-L743/), so a TMRCA estimate is not available. But its parent, R-S764, has a TMRCA of 1250 years (http://yfull.com/tree/R-S764/).
---

I would take YFULL's SNP ages estimations with a very small grain of salt at this point in time.

WilliamAllan
01-08-2016, 03:52 PM
William, two tests you might be interested in are FTDNA's L1065 Pack or YSEQ's L1335 Scots Panel.

Thanks much--I'll have a look!

WilliamAllan
01-29-2016, 02:56 PM
Well, my result came back and I'm negative for S7370....

lpreston
05-28-2016, 08:35 AM
I am the YFull L743. If there is a second 743, then they can do a TMRCA estimate, for which we would both benefit. I would be particularly interested in the only other non-Templeton 743 in order to get a better understanding of my paternal ancestry.

lgmayka
05-28-2016, 09:21 AM
If there is a second 743, then they can do a TMRCA estimate, for which we would both benefit. I would be particularly interested in the only other non-Templeton 743 in order to get a better understanding of my paternal ancestry.
My L743+ friend is not a Templeton; but I think he was already aware of an adoption in his patrilineage--that was his initial motivation for Y-DNA testing.

I don't think he is interested in spending the money for a full-Y test. Sorry.

RobertCasey
05-28-2016, 02:39 PM
L743 is kind of my poster child for an excellent haplogroup to belong to:

1) It has a very well defined signature based on nine YSTR markers.
2) 458 <= 16 appears to be required to test positive for L743.
3) It is very near the genealogical time frame based on so few surnames involved.
4) Templeton dominates the positive submissions (but this may due to bias in testing).

I just redid my analysis and found not a single new L743+ result in the last couple of years. However, I looked at the updated FTDNA R haplotree and found that FTDNA has demoted L743 in favor of Z16326. L743 is shown as an equivalent Z16326. Pulling Z16326 shows only two Big Y results - 63127 (Templeton) and 270944 (Preston). So the Big Y may not cover L743 or they just changed the lead YSNP to Z16326 for some other unknown reason.

However, there remains two testing opportunities for L743:

1) Complete the testing of L743 scope (these are non-Templeton that have a 70 to 90 % chance of testing positive):
164658 McRae
173431 McRae
40472 Munn
134945 Morgan
53675 Ferguson
26752 McGregor (speculative 10 or 20 % of being positive)

2) There are probably a lot of nice private YSNPs under Big Y results for 63127 and 270944. These should be added via Wish a YSNP at YSEQ and tested by L743 + individuals from the above list. FTDNA will not add private YSNPs (or even proven smaller scope branches) to their individual YSNP order list. These would be genealogical YSNPs that could create new branches under L743 - very interesting branches for genealogical research.

lgmayka
05-28-2016, 04:13 PM
134945 Morgan
#134945 tested L743+ via the Yseq Scots panel. But as I mentioned, he already knew of an adoption a couple generations back in his patrilineage.

lpreston
05-29-2016, 03:37 AM
Thank you for the replies. Morgan is my closest 67 match at GD6 since I first tested for 67 markers. I had to check for his FTDNA # before I responded. I was adopted and knew my birth father had a Scottish name. Fortunately, I now have a good maternal line tree going back at least 250 years. My father's surname is in a file a couple of blocks away from condo.
WRT to TMRCA, it was not of any great consequence, as I have 9 high quality snp's downstream of L743 ..confirmed by Alex, Yfull and FGC. I know from testing that I have Colonial American roots and also early Scottish Canadian roots. My interest is in filling in the blanks of my paternal ancestry and would be happy to support the suggestion of YSEQ testing of downstream snp's. It seems even if you get new 67 matches etc, they don't show up in your matches unless you check Y Search. I was pleased to recently see a new group of McRaes from Eastern Ontario(Glengarry etc) at GD7 whose difficult haplotype was quite comparable to mine and on atypical 1335 markers. One of them is on Robert Caseys high probability list of being pos for 743 and obvious that the 4 new MacRae matches are a high probability. If anyone is interested, my Y Search is 74PTV.
Perhaps of no consequence, but one particular pattern of str's that stood out to me in my haplotype is [email protected] and [email protected] in combination which occurs very infrequently in L1335. The 481/20 for men who don't test beyond 67 markers shows a distinctive pattern in Clan McKay and the McPherson Chiefs line along with 714/27 when tested for 111 markers.
Thanks to Peter to starting this string re 1335 as it is needed. I also wish to acknowledge all the work on L743 by Robert Casey. It was because of his work that I tested for L743 in May of 2013. It's really been a matter of filling in the blanks upstream of 743 since. Other than my private downstream snp's which are different than the Templetons, I've not really made much progress.

RobertCasey
05-29-2016, 07:51 AM
f270944
Preston
MacRae
L743+
NA
dup
15
0


16




f134945
Morgan
R-L1335
L743+


YSEQ


dup
12
5


16




fN5647
Neilson
Nelson
NA
NA
dup
12
5


18




f164658
McRae
MacRae
no test
NA
dup
12
6


16




f236558
McCoy
McKay
NA
NA
dup
11
5


18




f28854
Jordan
Jordan
NA
NA
dup
11
6


18




f134041
Sanders
Sanders
NA
NA
dup
11
6


18




f134043
Sanders
Sanders
NA
NA
dup
11
6


18




f327409
Caddell
R-L1335
NA
NA
dup
11
6


18




f223767
Kelly
Kelley
NA
NA
dup
11
7


16




f185847
zUnkName
Allen
NA
NA
dup
11
7


16




f248826
McIntosh
Allen
NA
NA
dup
11
7


17




f219764
zUnkName
Lowery
NA
NA
dup
11
7


19




f151585
zUnkName
Lowery
NA
NA
dup
10
5


19




f70373
McAllister
McAllister
NA
NA
dup
10
6


18




f164812
McCoy
McKay
NA
NA
dup
10
6


18




f58690
MacKay
McKay
NA
NA
dup
10
6


18




f59231
MacKay
McKee
NA
NA
dup
10
6


18




f123774
McAllister
McAllister
NA
NA
dup
10
6


18




f14494
Brewer
Brewer
NA
NA
dup
10
6


18




f151583
zUnkName
Lowery
NA
NA
dup
10
6


19




f172862
Elder
Elder
NA
NA
dup
10
6


19




f9333
Campbell
Campbell
NA
NA
dup
10
6


19




f62110
Campbell
Campbell
no test
NA
dup
10
7


18




f310998
Kean
Cumberland
L743-


NA




NA


10
7


19




f44769
MacRae
MacRae
NA
NA
dup
10
7


17




f80500
Chisholm
Chisholm
NA
NA
dup
10
7


18




f133118
Campbell
Campbell
NA
NA
dup
10
7


18




f72404
Goins
Goins
NA
NA
dup
10
7


18




f71360
Moore
Moore_WW
NA
NA
dup
10
7


18




f1476
Munroe
Munro
NA
NA
dup
10
7


18





The third to last column is the signature match, then genetic distance and then
value for 458. The third column is the project where found. Also, I ignore
CDY values in signatures and genetic distance - just too volatile.

I adjusted the signature for your haplotype and above is a summary of the
results. I think it is critical to only test for 458=16 for high signature matches.
Morgan (134945) and McRae (164658) are your closest matches. I would sponsor
testing of these two for your private YSNPs to discover branches under L226.
I would do it only one submission at a time to determine what needs to be
tested for the second submission.

If you discover any new branches, I would then go down the list and test those
for the new branch discovered as well. Comparing only NGS tests is very expensive
and takes way too long. Under L226, we have discovered four new L226 branches
by testing individual YSNPs at only 10 % of the cost of Big Y testing.

In addition to testing your private YSNPs, you also need to determine the scope
of L743 itself by testing close matches of the L743 signature that have 458=16.
Since this is only $17.50 each at YSEQ, I would just sponsor several of these
tests as well. I did find three L743+ results at YSEQ: 50, 2238 and 3589. Do
you know the FTDNA IDs for these YSEQ IDs ? 223767 and 185847 are next
on the list to test for L743. Keep testing going down the list until you test
negative for L743.

Also, I do not trust the Z16326 YSNP branch that FTDNA put up. This looks
like a branch below L743 since it tested negative for a submission that is
458=16. Does L743 show up in your BAM files ?

Also, always verify L743 before ordering any private YSNPs to be tested. Most
of 458=16 will be L743 positive but a few could be negative as the signature
and genetic distance gets more distant.

lgmayka
05-29-2016, 08:55 AM
[I did find three L743+ results at YSEQ: 50, 2238 and 3589. Do
you know the FTDNA IDs for these YSEQ IDs ?
Yseq 2238 is FTDNA 134945.

davidbrady
06-07-2016, 07:29 PM
Hello all,

Newbie here. Found this thread interesting and hope that I can contribute. Relevant SNPs include R-L1335 > S743 > R-L 1065 > R-S744 > R-S691. Surname is Brady, and I appear to be a lone ranger on the Big Y tree. I apparently have several "private" SNPs according to YFull, but do not really understand what they are or how they can be helpful. Just now climbing the learning curve on all of this, so please bear with my ignorance and let me know how my information can help the group.

Muireagain
07-29-2016, 08:50 PM
I have come to the view that L1335 represents the Dal Riada tribe. If true we should see less branches of L1335 to the east reflecting the migration by their sub-tribes (i.e. the Scotae). Are the Irish MacQuillans (who are L1335+ and L1065-) from Route (i.e. Dal Riada) in county Antrim?

Jon
07-30-2016, 09:35 AM
From the recent pie charts by Larry Walker over at FB, L1335 seems to be very Scotland-based. I'm L193 myself, of a subclade which is very focused on Scotland. It's also very western-focused, which also made me think there might be a Dalriada link to L513 (L193). But as far as I know, both L1335 and L193 don't have much representation in modern Ireland - surely we would see this if a Dalriada link was there? On the other hand, recent research suggests that Dalriada also included folks who were in Scotland, but already speaking Gaelic from earliest times.

Muireagain
08-01-2016, 08:53 PM
On the other hand, recent research suggests that Dalriada also included folks who were in Scotland, but already speaking Gaelic from earliest times.

Given that ancient written records in Scotland are rare, what is this assertion based on?

Muireagain
08-05-2016, 06:50 PM
I note that there are both MacPhersons and MacBains that are ZZ28+. The correlation of these surnames suggests the possibility that original population of Clan Chattan are a sub-set of L1335>L1065>Z16325>S744>S764>Z228.

Given that McGregors are typically L1335>L1065>Z16325>S744>S691>S695 (along with Buchanans), is it possible that:

L1335>L1065>Z16325>S744>S764+ are Cenel Loairn
L1335>L1065>Z16325>S744>S691+ are Cenel Gabhrain

Muireagain
08-26-2016, 08:50 PM
The MacLaren who seems to be L1335>L1065>Z16325>S744>S764+ are reported to descent from Lorn, son of Erc, i.e., they claim to be Cenel Loarin.

Are the following then Cenel Loarin (S744>S764+):
MacPhersons and MacBains of Clan Chattan?
MacRae of Kintail?
MacLaren - Yes?

Are the following then Cenel nGabhrain (S744>S691+):
Buchanans?
MacGregors - Yes?

bobp
08-30-2016, 01:18 AM
The MacLaren who seems to be L1335>L1065>Z16325>S744>S764+ are reported to descent from Lorn, son of Erc, i.e., they claim to be Cenel Loarin.

Are the following then Cenel Loarin (S744>S764+):
MacPhersons and MacBains of Clan Chattan?
MacRae of Kintail?
MacLaren - Yes?

Are the following then Cenel nGabhrain (S744>S691+):
Buchanans?
MacGregors - Yes?

Do we know the SNP's for any other Clan Chiefs?

Muireagain
08-31-2016, 08:38 PM
It is probably safe to say that the chief lines of the Campbells and MacPhies are L1335>1065>FGC10125 and the MacTavish line is L1335>L1065>Z16325>S744

Muireagain
09-14-2016, 05:48 PM
#134945 tested L743+ via the Yseq Scots panel. But as I mentioned, he already knew of an adoption a couple generations back in his patrilineage.

Any relation to Morgan 339019 who is also L1065+?

Muireagain
04-14-2017, 11:22 PM
My supposition is that:

Z16325>S744>S691 represents Cenel nGabhrain, and that
Z16325>S744>S691>S695 represents the Royal Line of Cenel nGabhrain, for it includes:
The MacGregors (beleiving the Book of Lismore pedigree represents the line of Clan Gregor)
The Buchanans
a Matheson sept
a Robertson sept
a Ferguson sept (of Atholl?)

And from other branches of Z16325>S744>S691>
Alexanders and Patersons (from Argyll?)
Hendersons and Ewensons

While
Z16325>S744>S764 represents Cenel Loairn, for it includes from different branches:
The MacLaren and a sept of Ferguson (of Balquidder?)
The MacRae and a sept named MacDonald
The MacPhersons of Clan Chattan and a sept of MacSweeny
The MacCoys (of Kintyre?) and a sept of Ferguson (of Kilkerran?)
The Templetowns
a sept of MacFarlanes

And
Z16325>S744>Y17075 represent Cenel Comgaill, for it includes from different branches:
The McKinnons plus related MacPherson and possibly some MacQuarries.
Youngs that trace themselves to a branch of the Lamonts of Cowal.

Leaving
Z16325>S744>CTS4931 a sept of Rodgers (of Bute?)
Z16325>S744>Y15476 a sept of Moores
and
Z16325>FGC10125 the Campbells

Albannach
04-24-2017, 11:06 AM
Interesting email from the L1335 group at FTDNA. It seems they are moving away from a Pictish or Gaelic origin for L1335 in favour of a Briton origin in the early centuries AD, but what I find interesting is that a group of L1335 L1065- have been found in Ireland, so not sure why they are ruling out a Gaelic origin just yet, particularly when you consider the Irish influence on the Lleyn peninsular, Even the name Lleyn has the same root as the Irish Laigin. From a Scottish point of view, considering how widespread L1335 is among Scottish clans I think an Irish origin would historically make more sense.

Heres the email in full.

"Hello All,

There are now almost 200 L1335 testers showing on Alex Williamson's Big Tree. After this latest sale on Big Y we will have crossed that boundary and more besides.

The last sale brought the addition of a Welsh Big Y tester who's STRs meant that he wasn't part of the Wales Type II L1065- group. The testing of these other branches of the L1335 group is very important to growing understanding of the origins of our line. At present we have the Wales Type II group and the early branch of the Wales II group all who are L1065-. We also of course have the substantial number of branches who are L1065+. The implication on the basis of these NGS testers data appears to be that the line has a P Celtic Briton origin and that the L1065 branch was a migration north sometime between the branching of the Wales II group and the manifold branches that eventually occurred in Scotland at some stage in the early AD centuries.

There are another group of L1335+ L1065- individuals and these men had been labelled by Robert Hughes as being an "Irish" group. Certainly some of the men have Irish surnames but there are also men with Scottish surnames in the group eg Campbell. This group may offer clues about the origins of our line. If they branched off post the Wales II group it may mean that the ancestors of L1065 spent some time in Ireland. If the branching is before the Wales II group this might strengthen the idea of a Brythonic origin. http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=9

I have written to the group in hopes of inspiring some interest in NGS testing amongst them. My thoughts are that although there may not be interest within that group in NGS testing we should be able to raise the funds from within the rest of the L1335 group to get that important branch tested. If a number of us all banded together and threw $20 or more into the pot we would very soon arrive at the necessary level of funding to cover the cost of the test. Who could then say no to a free Big Y test??

If this sounds like a reasonable idea to you then please consider making a small contribution to the L1335 pot by clicking on the "Donate" button. Enter something like "Big Y for L1065- group" as your reason for contributing (this is a box that is filled in as part of the process) and we can then track the funds.

Looking forward to another step towards learning something more about our origins.

Kind Regards,
Ross Buchanan"

MacUalraig
04-24-2017, 11:23 AM
Interesting thanks, is that just a personal opinion from the sender (learned though he may well be) or a group consensus as your opening sentence suggested?

Albannach
04-24-2017, 12:23 PM
The email came from the L1335 FTDNA group, so I'm assuming it's the opinion of more than one person, but to tell you the truth I wouldn't know. Interesting email nonetheless.

castle3
04-24-2017, 01:21 PM
The email came from the L1335 FTDNA group, so I'm assuming it's the opinion of more than one person, but to tell you the truth I wouldn't know. Interesting email nonetheless.

I wonder if some news has leaked out from one of the Scottish aDNA projects via the Kingdom of Strathclyde, hence their change of mind?

Muireagain
04-24-2017, 06:03 PM
The Kingdom of Strathclyde would be Al Clut, i.e. Magh Leamhna, hence Lennox? The MacFarlane and Lennox's are P312>Z290>L21>DF63 and I they are thought to be representatives of the British of Strathclyde?

L1335 is part of P312>Z290>L21>DF13>Z39589> which includes the major tribes of the north half of Ireland, Dal Cuinn, probably Dal Fiatach, probably the 'actual' Laigin of north Leinster and also the Dessi; with western Scotland families including: Stewart, MacCellan, Irvines and those families of L1335.

Does any one know the origin for the L1065+ Logans? They are lumped in with Buchanans due to similar haplotype, the Nevgen prediction tool predicts them as Z16325>S744>S691 (no surprise given the association made with the Buchanans). I can only hope that one take advantage of the Big-y sale current going for $425 (was $575).

Muireagain
04-26-2017, 03:46 AM
If the Bohannons and the Buchanans are separate families, which family is from the shores of Loch Lommond?

MacUalraig
04-26-2017, 07:19 AM
Bohannon isn't a Scottish name at all as far as I know. Buchanan is associated with the Lomond/Drymen parish area though (my Kennedy ancestor was born in Drymen in the 1790s).

Muireagain
04-26-2017, 07:47 PM
With the power of Google I find that Bohannon (that is a surname in Scotland) is considered as a variant spelling of Buchanan. I find Bohannan mentioned as a Scottish place name mentioned in 1654 correspondence (including the variant spelling Buhannon and Buhannan) and has been assumed to meaning Buchanan Castle.

However it is known that the Bohannons and Buchanans are actually separate families, their surnames have were derived separately. How does this effect the understanding of the origin of the surname Buchanan? Especially the two alternatives to origin of the surname: Mac a Chanonaich (son of the Cannon) and Buth Chanain (seat of the Cannon)?

Also it might shed light on the origin of the MacGregor, who so far, have the Bohannon as their closest relatives. Did the MacGregor line (the prior to the 12th century Aoidh Urchaidh) originate near Bohannon/Buchanan?

rncambron
04-26-2017, 08:27 PM
1)Ross Buchanan, the author of the FTDNA L1335 Circular, is Co-Administrator of the L1335 and Buchanan surname FTDNA projects.I assist him in the STR/SNP analysis of Buchanan surname results.
2)The L1065+/L1065-(Welsh Group) branching is dating to c900BC using CombBED methodologies.STR Coalescence modelling for the L1065+/L1065-(Irish group) branching gives a much later answer but due to the smallness of the group this is open to question.Ross is seeking some NGS(BigY/FGCElite)testing to clarify the situation.
3)The association of L1335/L1065 with any Dal Riada expansion remains debatable.If you consider professional historians cannot agree on Dal Riadan origins (Woolf says Cruithne/Dal Riada with Epidean origins and others say Ulaid)what hope is there that currently scant NGS testing will prove anything.In any event the Cenel territories of Dal Riada are to the West of Druimalban and the lands of Lennox et al.
4)Proto Buchanan/proto Macgregor branching below S695 is dating to c600AD using CombBED with the proto Bohannons going with the proto MacGregors for a further four SNPs.(I use Proto to emphasise these dates are prior to surname adoption)
5)The approx 40 Buchanans who have done NGS testing show a common ancestor c1200AD ie commensurate with the entry of the Buchanan Chiefs in to the written record in the Lennox Charters.We are at a stage now where cadet families of the Chiefs can be identified with confidence.
6)Some Logans do indeed share a close STR haplotype with the Buchanans.However we have observed considerable STR convergence in their results and it is probable SNP testing will show common ancestry pre the surname period.This would be consistent with my own experience where a close STR111 match with the Buchanans was shown by NGS testing to be circa 900AD MRCA.
Hope this helps

Muireagain
04-27-2017, 12:41 AM
If I understand correctly the L1065+ Logans (who seems to be those from the Black Isle) seem closer to he Buchanans than the MacGregor/Bohannon lines? It would be interesting to see the results of a Logan Big-Y.

The Mathesons seem also to be Z16325>S744>S691>S695, as with the MacGregor/Bohannon lines and the possible Buchanan/Logan lines. Given that the Black Isle Logans have some association with Northern Argyll, how are they related to the Mathesons? Again results of a L1065+ Matheson Big-Y would be interesting.

Are the Logans and Mathesons part of the conquest of the Moray and Cenel Loairn?

rncambron
04-27-2017, 12:47 PM
The Logans who match the Buchanan STR haplotype constitute a sub set of the FTDNA Logan Surname Project Limb3.They possess the characteristic DYS58718>17 mutation which occurred in their common ancestor with the proto Buchanans some 1000 years ago.
They trace their ancestry to the Ulster Plantation prior to their migration to the USA.There is a good fit of the Ulster townlands occupied by Logans,Buchanans and Bourlands(who also have the haplotype)
My working assumption is that they are related to the 14th century Logan who gained the Sasine for Mid Cameron fermtoun(now Cameron-Logan) on Cameron Muir south of Drymen by marrying a Galbraith heiress. Buchanans held the neighbouring West Cameron by Lennox Charter.

Muireagain
04-27-2017, 06:33 PM
I found mention of M'Math land in the area of Carbeth, could this be the home of the 691+ Mathesons? The Mathesons of Lochalsh I find are R1a like the northern MacDonalds.

Do the Bourland have any connection with Boreland near Fearnan on the north shore of Loch Tay?

The Logan Limb 3 contains Logans from Morayshire, Ross-Shire and Sutherland, so I still believe that the Black Isle Logans are L1065+ and possibly of the same branches of S691+ as the Buchanans. As for the Logan of Balvie, it is claimed that they are a sub-branch of the Logans of Restalrig. Which if true, I would think would rule them out for being L1065+. However I wonder if the Logan of the Black Isles are related to the Logans of Balvie, given it is believable that the Black Isle Logan have the same S691+ origin as the Buchanans.

Limb 1 R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > Z39589 > S1026 with links to Sir Robert Logan of Restalrig
Limb 2 seem to be R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z367/S255 and foreign?
Limb 3 L1065+ from Sutherland, Ross-shire and Morayshire.
Limb 4 a mixture of M222 subclades, Ui Briuin and maybe Luigne?
Limb 5 includes a Logan from Ayrshire, which is home an area called Logan.
(The other groups are too small.)

What I find interesting is L513 group that spread out from each other seem to form a pattern by bordering L1065:
The Littles and the MacKennedys of Carrick (located across the Firth of Clyde from Kintyre) share SNP A8 hence predicted to have share a common ancestor 651 ybp so split ~1309 AD.
Now the above families share with the Glendinnings the share SNP A3, no date predicted.
Again the above families share with the MacLean (rulers of former Cenel Loairn lands), Drummonds (neighbors to the Buchanans), Elliots, SNP L193 with a predicted age of 2116 ybp so split ~256 BC.
Further out are the MacKenizes sharing SNP FGC13499 with a predicted age of 3429 ybp so split ~1469 BC.
And the Maguires of Fermangh (Airgillia family, an area where the Cenel Loairn recruited allies from) sharing SNP S5668 with a predicted age of 3680 ybp so split ~1720 BC.

rncambron
04-27-2017, 07:33 PM
A Reference for the M'Math and Carbeth connection would be useful.Land ownership in the area for the period is well documented and studied so I guess I and others have missed your reference.
A couple of years ago I exchanged notes with Alice Fairhurst,ISOGG co-ordinator and Admin for the Mathesons. As we didn't have an STR111 or SNP result we decided the analysis of the S695 Matheson sub set connection to the Buchanans/MacGregors would have to wait for further results.They still haven't appeared.
The Logan who married the Galbraith heiress in the 14th century gained Balvie and Cameron through his actions.The relation to Restalrig is unproven and probably a convenient 'lang pedigree' fabrication.
If you look closely at the Logan Limb 3 haplotypes you will see sub divisions including a DYS587 divide.If you choose to ignore my analysis and continue to pursue some Cenel Lorain connection so be it.
There are approx 50 instances of fermtouns in Scotland named 'boreland' which when translated means 'home farm'.The Bourlands who have the Buchanan haplotype probably lived at the Buchanan home farm near Drymen before they went to Ulster then USA.
I would suggest L513 would be a more useful source of Dal Riadan connections than S695 but that is for you.

rncambron
04-27-2017, 08:12 PM
I should have added that if the M'Math reference is Guthrie Smith it is a bit of a stretch to link this with Mathesons.

Muireagain
04-27-2017, 08:36 PM
Reference to M'Math lands is in "The Parish of Strathblane and Its Inhabitants from Early Times", by John Guthrie Smith, 1886, p. 348
https://books.google.com/books?id=HxsNAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Balvie%22%22Logan%22+medieval&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjFuqu9msXTAhVE6YMKHXfTBOoQ6AEIJTAB#v=on epage&q=m'math&f=false

L513 would be Airgillian is any thing, there is no sign of 6th century divisions that gives rise to the principles families of Comghaill, Gabhrain and Loairn, were as L1065 does!

L1065 splits into FGC10125 and S744:
FGC10125 gives the Campbells who never claim any descent from Fergus Mor
S744 splits into
S691 The MacGregors, Buchanans, a Matheson sept probably from Carbeth, Robertson and Ferguson which I believe are the real family from Atholl (plus Alexanders and Patersons from Argyll? and Hendersons and Ewensons.)
S764 The MacLaren, MacRae, a sept of Ferguson (of Balquidder?), a sept named MacDonald, MacPhersons of Clan Chattan and a sept of MacSweeny (plus MacCoys (of Kintyre?) and a sept of Ferguson (of Kilkerran?), Templetowns and a sept of MacFarlanes)
Y17075 The McKinnons plus related MacPherson and possibly some MacQuarries, and the Youngs that trace themselves to a branch of the Lamonts of Cowal.
CTS4931 a sept of Rodgers (of Bute?)
Y15476 a sept of Moores

Although the dates for the SNP are clearly imperfect at YFULL.ORG, however it seems possible that these splits could have happen in 6th century. Therefore given the size, shape/time and surnames involved only L1065 matches the Dal Riata.

Muireagain
04-27-2017, 09:23 PM
I should have added that if the M'Math reference is Guthrie Smith it is a bit of a stretch to link this with Mathesons.

What would your concern be? M'Math (MacMath) is an already accepted variant of Matheson, so the surname is fine. According to the Matheson DNA project they are not the same haplogroup as the Mathesons of Lochalsh, nor that of the Mathesons from Lewis. However the L1065+ Matheson trace their ancestors back to (The 'Clan Matheson') Lochalsh or Lewis, they either have a problem with the paper trail or they are NPEs.

rncambron
04-28-2017, 06:28 PM
Scottish Records Online Catalogue GD220/1/L/2/5/1-13: a series of documents covering 1660-1757 in which a part of Carbeth in Strathblane is identified as 'McMeath's lands'.So either their transcription is wrong or Guthrie Smith got it wrong.Either way I'll leave the Matheson linkage to MacGregors/Buchanans an open question just as Alice (see above) agreed to leave the Matheson L1065 Chieftainship question open until further evidence becomes available.
Re L1065 and Dal Riada perhaps you can point me in the direction of the L1065 legacy in Ulster or did they [B]all jump in a boat and go to West Scotland at 500 AD?After all according to your theory the expansion at the foot of the L1065 Phylogenetic block circa 200AD must have occurred in Ulster for the 'supposed L1065' Dal Riadan tribe to have the strength in Ulster it had..

Muireagain
04-28-2017, 08:21 PM
MacMeath is consider a variant of MacMath by MacLysaght in work on Irish Surnames, and that MacMath are the Scottish Mathesons. I am no linguist, however it seems acceptable that MacMeath is a variant of MacMath.

L1065 is a subset of L1335 and as already mentioned above there are Irish L1335+ L1065-.

If L1065 is circa 200AD, then by 350AD L1065 would have reach the status of a derbfine or basic family unit within the tribe. For the five generations more it will spawn an increasing numbers of L1065+ derbfines. Depending on their luck they would have become a larger part of the tribe. However they would like the rest of the tribe competing for farmland would have had to face the pressure of Cruithne. Which itself was under pressure from the growing Ulster population of Dal Cuinn and Dal Fiatach, who were creating swordland out of former Cruithne lands. Personally I doubt Dal Riada was dominated by L1065 circa 500 AD, and if it was I am sure the foothold in Scotland beckoned as a safe haven from the expansion of Feni.

Note: those Irish L1335+ L1065- whose anglicized surname is Campbell are clearly not Campbells for they are not of the Campbell YDNA line, i.e., Z16325>FGC10125>FGC10117+. The Campbell Gaelic name is MacCailean Mór. The Irish L1335+ L1065- includes such surnames as MacQuillian, MacCullen and Campbells (which in Scotland the English name of MacCailean Mór). It seems likely that the MacQuillian, MacCullen and MacCailean are phonetically equivalent, hence these L1335+ L1065- Campbells probably had the same Gaelic surname that is behind the anglicized surnames MacQuillian (the family being from Co. Louth) and MacCullen.

MacLysaght in "The Surnames of Ireland" writes: "Mac Quillan 'Mac Uighilin'. This is the name taken by the Cambro-Norman family of Mandeville which developed into an Irish sept, and became lords of the Route. It spread to Oriel and adjacent counties where it is reported to have been changed to MacCullen whence, even Cullen and also occasionally to MacWilliams."

Louth is in Oriel, hence the word of MacLysaght means that L1335+ L1065- Mac Quillan family could be from the MacQuillans, lords of the Route. The Mac Cullen, which can be the same as Mac Quillan, can also be from the lords of the Route, and possibly Irish L1335+ L1065- Campbells.

The Lordship of Route in Co. Antrim is named for prior Irish tribe that ruled the land before heading to Scotland, i.e., the Dal Riada, whom we are discussing whether their ancestors are L1065+.

(Now Mac Quillan are said to be Cambro-Norman family of Mandeville (from Scotland). However numerous lowland Scottish families claim to be Anglo-Norman as their origin, yet have same YDNA as the older neighboring Gaelic tribes. Hence there is no certainty that the Mandeville are a Cambro-Norman or even they are the origin of Mac Quillans of Route.)

Although nothing is proven in it totality, there is a plausible association between the Irish L1335+ L1065- population and the old homeland of Dal Riata.

Albannach
04-30-2017, 12:34 AM
Does anyone know if there is a L1335+ L1065- Scottish branch?

Muireagain
05-01-2017, 09:11 PM
I ran the neven.org prediction on Morisons of Banff group H, it predicted them as Z16325>S744>S764. I also the prediction tool for an Urquhart, who was also Z16325>S744>S764. I can only wonder if S764 is Cenel Laoirn given it stretches Argyllshire to to Banffshire.

TigerMW
05-02-2017, 08:29 PM
Does anyone know if there is a L1335+ L1065- Scottish branch?

There are L1335+ L1065- people. This is proven. However, they don't fit the classic Scots Modal Haplotype. Some may be of Scottish origin though, I have not thoroughly checked that. Some are of Welsh origin.

LarryMc
05-19-2017, 04:34 PM
Interesting email from the L1335 group at FTDNA. It seems they are moving away from a Pictish or Gaelic origin for L1335 in favour of a Briton origin in the early centuries AD, but what I find interesting is that a group of L1335 L1065- have been found in Ireland, so not sure why they are ruling out a Gaelic origin just yet, particularly when you consider the Irish influence on the Lleyn peninsular, Even the name Lleyn has the same root as the Irish Laigin. From a Scottish point of view, considering how widespread L1335 is among Scottish clans I think an Irish origin would historically make more sense.

Heres the email in full.

"Hello All,

There are now almost 200 L1335 testers showing on Alex Williamson's Big Tree. After this latest sale on Big Y we will have crossed that boundary and more besides.

The last sale brought the addition of a Welsh Big Y tester who's STRs meant that he wasn't part of the Wales Type II L1065- group. The testing of these other branches of the L1335 group is very important to growing understanding of the origins of our line. At present we have the Wales Type II group and the early branch of the Wales II group all who are L1065-. We also of course have the substantial number of branches who are L1065+. The implication on the basis of these NGS testers data appears to be that the line has a P Celtic Briton origin and that the L1065 branch was a migration north sometime between the branching of the Wales II group and the manifold branches that eventually occurred in Scotland at some stage in the early AD centuries.

There are another group of L1335+ L1065- individuals and these men had been labelled by Robert Hughes as being an "Irish" group. Certainly some of the men have Irish surnames but there are also men with Scottish surnames in the group eg Campbell. This group may offer clues about the origins of our line. If they branched off post the Wales II group it may mean that the ancestors of L1065 spent some time in Ireland. If the branching is before the Wales II group this might strengthen the idea of a Brythonic origin. http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=9

I have written to the group in hopes of inspiring some interest in NGS testing amongst them. My thoughts are that although there may not be interest within that group in NGS testing we should be able to raise the funds from within the rest of the L1335 group to get that important branch tested. If a number of us all banded together and threw $20 or more into the pot we would very soon arrive at the necessary level of funding to cover the cost of the test. Who could then say no to a free Big Y test??

If this sounds like a reasonable idea to you then please consider making a small contribution to the L1335 pot by clicking on the "Donate" button. Enter something like "Big Y for L1065- group" as your reason for contributing (this is a box that is filled in as part of the process) and we can then track the funds.

Looking forward to another step towards learning something more about our origins.

Kind Regards,
Ross Buchanan".
St Columba supposedly needed a translator on his missions to Pictland...ScotlandsDNA has labeled L1335/L1065+ as Pictish...hence P-Celtic language would seem to be more substantiation of Pictish ancestry. Did I miss something here??

Dubhthach
05-19-2017, 05:01 PM
What surnames do these L1335+/L1065- found in Ireland have?

Muireagain
05-19-2017, 05:07 PM
What surnames do these L1335+/L1065- found in Ireland have?

McQuillans, McCullen, Rains, McNulty, Owens, Campbells, Stephens, Sutton.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L1335?iframe=yresults

Dubhthach
05-20-2017, 10:43 AM
Have any of these done BigY and if so how do they compare with the other L1335+/L1065- clusters (two of which are Welsh)

Albannach
05-24-2017, 05:45 PM
Does anyone know if CTS11722 is the same as L1065? Or is CTS11722 a different SNP?

Peter MacDonald
06-08-2017, 11:51 PM
Well have a a number of Big Y, Y Elite, L1335/L1065 Packs and individual SNP tests for BY154 (which is under S756) it appears BY154 is a marker for persons who are paternally descended from the Clan Iain Ruadh of Glenmoriston. I wrote off my possible connection to the MacDonald Sept a number of years ago, however a genetic match on the other side of the world with no collaborative research who also had a tradition of descending from this MacDonald Sept changed my mind. It took 7 years of testing and waiting but it was well worth it. Still much more work to be done :)

Muireagain
06-27-2017, 04:05 PM
Does anyone know of a discussion group of early Scottish history? I have been reading the works of the modern Scottish academics and they seem fixated on find the golden bullet for the unacceptable idea that "Scotland originated as an Irish colony." Instead of answering why their assumptions cause the Cenel Comghaill to stretch into Fothrif. And ignoring that Aedan mac Gabhrain as first of the line to rule Fortriu (the prophecy of St Bechan clearly equates this the kingdom of Moray). I also wonder if the Cenel Gabhrain mac Aedhain of Kintyre, that is treated as the extent of Cenel Gabhrain, is the sub branch Cenel Conaing. While ignoring that a of Cenel Gabhrain i.e., "Cenel Eochaidh Buide mac Aedhain" is ruling in Gowrie and Fife.

Also does anyone know if Badenoch (Bŕideanach) could be from Baedenach, from Baedan (i.e. Baetan mac Eochaidh mac Muireadach of Cenel Loarn), being it inhabitants include Clan Chattan of Cenel Baetain and neighboring the land of Cenel Baetain (which itself is north of Cenel Loairn)?

Muireagain
07-10-2017, 07:03 PM
I find Chadwick connected the descendants of Oengus m Fergus m Eochaid (d.781), King of the Picts, with the line of Cenel Gabhrain. Hence he is part of the Cenel Gabhrain line of rulers of Fortriu that was "predicted" by St Patrick (or more likely a known when the author of the Tripartite Life of St Patrick) in or prior to 800 (i.e. current knowledge that descendants of Aedan mac Gabhrain was placed it in St Patrick's mouth to empowering him with prophesy). Also explaining the confusing references to Cenel Eoghain's using either a Dal Riata or Fortriu fleet circa 733. (Cenel Eoghain has a track record of using the Hebrideans for their navy.)

Looking at the proposed line of Oengus m Fergus m Eochaid (d.781) this would make them a collateral branch of the Royal Line of Cenel Gabhrain, from with Cinaeda mac Aplin originates from.

Muireagain
10-14-2017, 06:12 AM
I see we have MacKays who Z16325>S744>S764 and one is from Reay, the land of MacKays...

Z16325>S744>S764 represents Cenel Loairn, for it includes from different branches:
The MacLaren and a sept of Ferguson (of Balquidder?)
The MacRae and a sept named MacDonald
The MacPhersons of Clan Chattan and a sept of MacSweeny
The MacCoys (of Kintyre?) and a sept of Ferguson (of Kilkerran?)
The Templetowns
a sept of MacFarlanes

ps. The other matching MacKay on the Big Tree is from Durness.

Caledonian
05-25-2019, 10:18 PM
So what is the consensus on the origin of L1065 at the moment? is it still regarded as Pictish?

Jon
05-29-2019, 08:30 PM
What I find interesting is L513 group that spread out from each other seem to form a pattern by bordering L1065:
The Littles and the MacKennedys of Carrick (located across the Firth of Clyde from Kintyre) share SNP A8 hence predicted to have share a common ancestor 651 ybp so split ~1309 AD.
Now the above families share with the Glendinnings the share SNP A3, no date predicted.
Again the above families share with the MacLean (rulers of former Cenel Loairn lands), Drummonds (neighbors to the Buchanans), Elliots, SNP L193 with a predicted age of 2116 ybp so split ~256 BC.
Further out are the MacKenizes sharing SNP FGC13499 with a predicted age of 3429 ybp so split ~1469 BC.
And the Maguires of Fermangh (Airgillia family, an area where the Cenel Loairn recruited allies from) sharing SNP S5668 with a predicted age of 3680 ybp so split ~1720 BC.

Seems like L513 borders quite a few other bigger clades - like DF21 and M222 in Ireland. The Airgialla were 'allies' of some of the Dalraidan groups. Could this be a L1065 (Dalriada) and L513 (Airgialla) alliance? Or if L1065 looks Pictish, then L513 might be a brother P-Celtic clade?

rms2
05-30-2019, 12:38 AM
Seems like L513 borders quite a few other bigger clades - like DF21 and M222 in Ireland. The Airgialla were 'allies' of some of the Dalraidan groups. Could this be a L1065 (Dalriada) and L513 (Airgialla) alliance? Or if L1065 looks Pictish, then L513 might be a brother P-Celtic clade?

One thing to keep in mind is that L513 is Z39589-, while L1335 is Z39589+ and thus more closely related to the other Z39589 subclades, like DF49, DF41, L371, Z251, etc.

Jon
05-30-2019, 10:06 AM
One thing to keep in mind is that L513 is Z39589-, while L1335 is Z39589+ and thus more closely related to the other Z39589 subclades, like DF49, DF41, L371, Z251, etc.

OK, I wasn't aware of that...excuse my naivety, but does that mean that L513 is older in the isles than the Z395589 subclades? If so, could this be one of the older P-Celtic groups?

rms2
05-31-2019, 11:03 AM
OK, I wasn't aware of that...excuse my naivety, but does that mean that L513 is older in the isles than the Z395589 subclades? If so, could this be one of the older P-Celtic groups?

I don't know how old L513/DF1 is, but YFull says its tmrca is 3700 ybp (c. 1700 BC), so it appears to be one of the younger DF13 subclades.

YFull apparently doesn't have Z39589 in its tree as far as I can tell, but Mike Walsh lists its tmrca as about 4300 ybp (c. 2300 BC). See Mike's L21 Descendant Tree (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l21/about/results).

Anyway, L21 itself was evidently brought to the Isles by the Kurgan Bell Beaker people. I don't know what L513's connection to P-Celtic is.

Ysearcher
01-06-2020, 12:50 AM
I have R-S691, downstream of S744, and I have a whole genome sequence, which is negative for all of the currently known SNPs downstream of S691. S691 is the "parent" haplogroup of S690, S695 (the founding line of Clan Gregor and Clan Buchanan) and A850, notably the Alexander surname, and many other subclades downstream of S691. It is well represented in Alex Williamson's "Big Tree", but Alex et al have steadfastly refused to include by whole genome results on the tree (actually, they have just ignored my emails), presumably because I never got any BAM files from the whole genome test - all my variants are derived from the VCF file. I am a Personal Genome Project participant, and the Complete Genome Inc. (CGI) was a notoriously short read sequencing technology (I have heard estimates that their contigs were only ~ 35 base pairs long. Even within the exonic regions it is full of holes, the proverbial Swiss cheese. CGI was sold in 2015 to the company in mainland China now known as BGI).Even so, the VCF file contained more than 20 novel SNPs, and Yseq sequenced and confirmed about half a dozen of those novel SNPs for me. When I eventually got a FTDNA 111 STR match on a man with the same surname (106/111, different spelling, and no pedigree match in the last 6 generations) we ran those novel SNPs for him at Yseq and matched on 3 of them. My best guess is that I should be derived for S695, but it lies in the DYZ19 region, a segmental duplication region (aka Low Complexity Region), and my sequence doesn't match with the typical/average repeats for that region, so my S695 is not detectable with Next Generaton Sequencing. That's my best theory, as I otherwise have hundreds of matches at the 37 STR and 67 STR level, most easily and obviously identified as Scottish origin by their Scottish surnames. I had S691 confirmed by SNP testing at FTDNA as well and my recent version 5 upgrade at 23andMe also shows me derived for S691, so confirmed from four independent samples, using three different technologies.

Incidentally, Peter, I had full mitochondrial sequencing from FTDNA more than ten years ago, and I have T2b19, and most of my matches are from Northern Ireland, although the only woman I match by pedigree carries the line back to woman born in Virginia named Tarleton, obviously the family of the infamous British lieutenant of the American Revolution, Banastre Tarleton (some of that large wealthy family apparently also lived in the American Colonies and were loyal to the Patriot rebels). The only genealogical data that I have confirmed for that direct maternal line was several generations closer, a woman born in the American Colonies, birth surname Key.

As far as I can tell, R-S691, has the greatest density in the southwest Highlands of Argyll, near the Strathclyde and Loch Lomond, and the southwest Lowlands.

RWJE
01-11-2020, 10:20 PM
I would be very interested in trying to find out why there are 10 from Country Ireland on the FTDNA Block tree who are L1335+ but L1065- At the moment on Alex Williamson's YTree all the testers that are L1065- are from Wales (7 in total). If you look you can see only 3 from Wales on the FTDNA Block Tree but 10 from Ireland. Any thoughts? I tried to post the screenshots but it does not seem to allow me
I have popped them into dropbox and tried to share the link
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3zy7m7o8mpcq3ns/Screenshot1%20jpeg.jpg?dl=0 (Top of Block tree)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/13q3xl143fp9c4x/Screenshot2%20jpeg.jpg?dl=0 (Bottom of Block Tree marked up)

Dubhthach
01-12-2020, 10:18 AM
I would be very interested in trying to find out why there are 10 from Country Ireland on the FTDNA Block tree who are L1335+ but L1065- At the moment on Alex Williamson's YTree all the testers that are L1065- are from Wales (7 in total). If you look you can see only 3 from Wales on the FTDNA Block Tree but 10 from Ireland. Any thoughts? I tried to post the screenshots but it does not seem to allow me
I have popped them into dropbox and tried to share the link
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3zy7m7o8mpcq3ns/Screenshot1%20jpeg.jpg?dl=0 (Top of Block tree)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/13q3xl143fp9c4x/Screenshot2%20jpeg.jpg?dl=0 (Bottom of Block Tree marked up)

Without a list of surnames it's gonna be hard to theorize about this, but recall the Welsh formed such a large part of the Norman invasion of Ireland that generally people talk about the 'Cambro-Normans' (well that and major Norman barons involved often had Welsh mothers in 1169). It's quite possible that many of these 10 have surnames that in Irish context are connected to Wales. Recall after all that the third (or is fourth) most common surname in Ireland today is Walsh. Which as you guessed it denotes Welsh ancestry in a post-1169 context.

RWJE
01-12-2020, 08:53 PM
Thanks for this. The dating of the L1335 and L1065 is roughly 2000 years ago. So it would be years before the Normans. I would be very interested if there was some way we could get names for FTDNA Block Tree results similar to Alex Williamson's YTree.

Muireagain
01-15-2020, 12:07 AM
The "Scottish cluster" are L1335>L1065+. While the Welsh L1065- are actually from only one branch of L1335, namely Z16450. Hence we have

L1335>L1065 from Scotland
L1335>Z16450 from Wales

And form the data, see no way a decision can be made as the origin of L1335. For data only presently says that: L1065 is likely form Scotland and Z16450 is likely from Wales, nothing on the origin of L1335. Am I missing something?

The Irish YDNA would be very informative. I remember the L1065- included such Irish families as McQuillans, McCullen and McNulty, all from East Ulster?

Looking at SNP tree at FamilyTreeDNA is see:
L1335>L1065 69 Scotland; 17 Ireland; 12 USA; 11 England; 7 unknown
L1335>Z16450 7 Wales; 3 USA; 2 unknown
L1335>* 19 Scotland; 14 Ireland, 3 Wales, 3 England
These numbers are an under count, however it is shows Z16450 is not found in Scotland and it seems L1065 is not found in Wales.

Peter MacDonald
02-08-2020, 12:44 PM
I would be very interested in trying to find out why there are 10 from Country Ireland on the FTDNA Block tree who are L1335+ but L1065- At the moment on Alex Williamson's YTree all the testers that are L1065- are from Wales (7 in total). If you look you can see only 3 from Wales on the FTDNA Block Tree but 10 from Ireland. Any thoughts? I tried to post the screenshots but it does not seem to allow me
I have popped them into dropbox and tried to share the link
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3zy7m7o8mpcq3ns/Screenshot1%20jpeg.jpg?dl=0 (Top of Block tree)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/13q3xl143fp9c4x/Screenshot2%20jpeg.jpg?dl=0 (Bottom of Block Tree marked up)

Has anyone been able to learn the surnames and/or locations of the Irish testers listed on the Block Tree who are L1335+ but L1065- ?