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jutland
12-13-2015, 02:59 PM
I tested with NG 2.0 then less than a year later with NG revised. I was r1b-z225 and now r1b-cts278 which is off of u152. How can this happen?
My maternal is still the same h1a3a.
Also, anyone know what origin is cts278?

ArmandoR1b
12-13-2015, 04:12 PM
You probably have a recurrent SNP which means the same mutation happened in two different subclades. In order to determine that you will want to look at your raw DNA file. Do you know how to download the raw data file from National Geographic? There should be an expert option at https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/results/myprofile where you can agree to the CSV file download consent then download the file.

Once you download the file you will need to unzip it. Once unzipped open the ychromo.csv file then search for U152. If you have TT for U152 then you are negative for that SNP and NG 2.0 has you in the wrong subclade. If you have CC then you are positive for U152.

jutland
12-13-2015, 04:48 PM
Thank you very much. I will try to do this.
I wonder why NG didnt do this? I have been waiting for a response for almost 1 month.
Thanks again.

jutland
12-13-2015, 05:27 PM
I just tried to download the raw data and option is closed at this time.
I will try to call NG tomorrow.

ArmandoR1b
12-13-2015, 06:23 PM
Did you ever transfer your data to FamilyTreeDNA? If so, you might already show a U152- result there. You have to go to your FTDNA account then go to https://www.familytreedna.com/my/y-dna-haplotree then scroll to the very bottom where it says Tests Taken. Below that there is a list of SNPs. Look for U152 in there.

Petr
12-13-2015, 06:36 PM
According to my experience no negative results are displayed for transferred Geno 2.0 data:
http://i68.tinypic.com/20k7t6f.png

ArmandoR1b
12-13-2015, 07:58 PM
On April 29, 2014 there was an update that included negative results that pertain to the specific haplogroup the person belongs to. Around August 2014 they stopped showing the negative results unless the customer requested a refresh.

Regardless, if he does not have a positive U152 then he should be negative for it anyway.

Petr
12-13-2015, 10:13 PM
On April 29, 2014 there was an update that included negative results that pertain to the specific haplogroup the person belongs to. Around August 2014 they stopped showing the negative results unless the customer requested a refresh.Now I see why I remember there were some negative results in the past, thank you.



Regardless, if he does not have a positive U152 then he should be negative for it anyway.And what about "no call"?

paulgill
12-14-2015, 02:41 AM
Did you ever transfer your data to FamilyTreeDNA? If so, you might already show a U152- result there. You have to go to your FTDNA account then go to https://www.familytreedna.com/my/y-dna-haplotree then scroll to the very bottom where it says Tests Taken. Below that there is a list of SNPs. Look for U152 in there.

My Y and mt haplogroup at Geno 2.0 are better than at FTDNA after transfer, FTDNA has got everything upside down and refused to correct them after numerous requests. FTDNA????

vettor
12-14-2015, 05:02 AM
According to my experience no negative results are displayed for transferred Geno 2.0 data:
http://i68.tinypic.com/20k7t6f.png

you can show your negatives by using this program with your natgeno

http://www.y-str.org/2014/07/genetic-genealogy-kit.html

ArmandoR1b
12-14-2015, 12:21 PM
And what about "no call"?

That's a possibility but jutland isn't the only person that has been changed from R1b-Z225 to R1b-CTS278 under U152 so I doubt all of them had a no-call for U152 and the most likely explanation is that CTS278 is a recurrent SNP just like 176 and several others. Since DF27 is such a hard SNP to test for it isn't included in the Geno 2.0 test and that might have prevented the problem that these people have run into. DF27 has to be ordered separately through FTDNA or Yseq.net and with a positive result the people such as jutland that have been moved would know that the Geno 2.0 placement is incorrect.

ArmandoR1b
12-14-2015, 12:29 PM
you can show your negatives by using this program with your natgeno

http://www.y-str.org/2014/07/genetic-genealogy-kit.html

That program can't process a Geno 2.0 file. The SNPs have to be copied and pasted from FTDNA or a BigY file has to be used. If there are only positive values at FTDNA then only positive results will show with that tool.

ArmandoR1b
12-14-2015, 01:01 PM
My Y and mt haplogroup at Geno 2.0 are better than at FTDNA after transfer, FTDNA has got everything upside down and refused to correct them after numerous requests. FTDNA????

Both Geno 2.0 and FTDNA have problems. But sticking to the topic of the thread, FTDNA correctly places Z225 downstream of DF27 and as a "sibling" to Z195 and Z196 and it correctly places CTS278 downstream from U152 and L2 and so on down to Z149. So whatever your situation is it isn't pertinent to the situation of the OP.

jutland
12-14-2015, 01:47 PM
I did transfer my z225/9 to FTDNA and when looking at the data u152 is negative ( in black).
I also ordered the df27 pack from ftdan and still waiting for the results.
While waiting, my NG results came back u152/l2 with cts278 as my haplogroup. I asked FTDNA why and
how this could happen. The reply was that it cant and they sent a request to customer service directly to NG.
Not sure why my neanderthal dna went from 2.4 to 1.0 also? My maternal line did not change, is northern european origin, yet my N european
component did drop. This also is a mystery.
My son was tested and he too is z225/229 by nat geo. Both my son and myself tested less than 1 year ago.
My latest u152 results I cant look up the raw data nor can I transfer to FTDNA as the system is not allowing me.
Imagine I too the revised NG for more clarity and now look what I faced with lol.
A friend of mine Is having he same problem and oddly he is u152/l2 also.
Does anyone know where CTS278 is from? I only see it in the UK.

ArmandoR1b
12-14-2015, 02:08 PM
I did transfer my z225/9 to FTDNA and when looking at the data u152 is negative ( in black).
I also ordered the df27 pack from ftdan and still waiting for the results.
While waiting, my NG results came back u152/l2 with cts278 as my haplogroup. I asked FTDNA why and
how this could happen. The reply was that it cant and they sent a request to customer service directly to NG.
Not sure why my neanderthal dna went from 2.4 to 1.0 also? My maternal line did not change, is northern european origin, yet my N european
component did drop. This also is a mystery.
My son was tested and he too is z225/229 by nat geo. Both my son and myself tested less than 1 year ago.
My latest u152 results I cant look up the raw data nor can I transfer to FTDNA as the system is not allowing me.
Imagine I too the revised NG for more clarity and now look what I faced with lol.
A friend of mine Is having he same problem and oddly he is u152/l2 also.
Does anyone know where CTS278 is from? I only see it in the UK.

Since you are not positive for U152 then you are DF27 and your CTS278 result is a recurrent SNP. This will be evident once you get your DF27 test result. That means it doesn't matter where the other CTS278 people are from because they are U152 and you are not U152. Think of the surnames Cruz and Cruise. They can sound the same but have very different origins and meanings other than they are both from languages descended from PIE. Your CTS278 and the CTS278 of U152 people have different origins although they both descend from P312.

Your situation is a good example why SNP packs, Yseq.net, BigY, and FGS are better places to get tested. At least until NG fixes the download and transfer problems.

jutland
12-14-2015, 02:09 PM
I must clarify that the test taken section doesnt have the u152. This is at the bottom of the page.
However, the r tree shows the u152 as presumed negative9 in black). This is on the FTDNA transfer from NG.

jutland
12-14-2015, 02:12 PM
Thanks for all your input Armando.

jutland
12-26-2015, 04:53 PM
My results came back from FTDNA D27 snp pack and I am confirmed R-Y16018.
Others have come back with the same result and they are Irish, theres a German, someone from Puerto Rico too.
Seems its the Atlantic area and spread by people from the area we know as N Spain is what I think as Spain went to the
Americas and clearly has had a relationship with the UK for thousands of years.
Was thinking to do the big y but am concerned I will just end up with anther extension of my haplogroup and no answers.
I also considered doing another autosomal dna test but when I tested before (ancestry.com) I ended up with a High amount of Italian and
Scandinavian which makes sense by my history in part but doesnt match my paternal haplogroup.
Still no answer from NG, they likley have a mess they are sorting out.

ArmandoR1b
12-26-2015, 06:49 PM
My results came back from FTDNA D27 snp pack and I am confirmed R-Y16018.
Others have come back with the same result and they are Irish, theres a German, someone from Puerto Rico too.
Seems its the Atlantic area and spread by people from the area we know as N Spain is what I think as Spain went to the
Americas and clearly has had a relationship with the UK for thousands of years.
Was thinking to do the big y but am concerned I will just end up with anther extension of my haplogroup and no answers.
I also considered doing another autosomal dna test but when I tested before (ancestry.com) I ended up with a High amount of Italian and
Scandinavian which makes sense by my history in part but doesnt match my paternal haplogroup.
Still no answer from NG, they likley have a mess they are sorting out.

A BigY test wouldn't tell you much because there aren't enough people in the Y16018 subclade that have had an NGS test based on the single HG00742 Puerto Rican individual at http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=190&star=true (clicking on him will show his other mutations) and two additional YFull customers w/o a country origin specified. http://yfull.com/tree/R-Y16018/ However, if everyone waits then the subclade won't gain more subclades and it will stay where it is for years.

The NatGeo test has turned out to be a very bad deal for a lot of people. They still can't transfer their data to FTDNA and they can't download their raw data. That's extremely poor service. The good thing is that it is expected to be fixed at some point.

The autosomal test is mostly going to show what most of your ancestors had. The DNA from a single ancestor that is ethnically different from the test from 8 or more generations ago gets washed out or diluted to a point that it isn't discernible. Your Y-DNA is from more than 4,000 years ago and whatever region specific autosomal SNPs your Y16018 ancestor had would be long lost unless they were part of a much larger group of people that also happened to be a majority of your ancestors. Since there haven't been any ancient remains of a 4,000 year old person that is positive for Y16018 (at least that I know of) then there is no way to know what his autosomal DNA was like. There is no need to do another ancestry test unless you want to get a 23andme test to see if your high Italian still shows up.

jutland
12-27-2015, 06:08 PM
Amando, you have been very helpful and you clearly have knowledge in this field. I realize that the the info is limited but given those tested positive are in the atlantic area and in S America would it
seem logical that these people have a common origin in the area now known as spain? My history is that my dads side appears to have come from N Spain though when tested I dont have the typical mixtures in the gene pool like whats given for Spainiards ie.. no Jewish, african... I infact I thought I could be basque but am not as they are M153 I believe. We went into Italy but never mixed until my mom met my dad. All the names are from Spain, both sides as there was a large population there during the years of conquest and thats when they arrived according to relatives. Mixture came as a result of my mom who is H1a3a and that makes sense as this was the Scandinavian into Germany then into N. Italy, germanic invasions. So autosomal DNA suggests Italian and Scandinavian which makes sense but as usual the paternal side is missing as I would expect something from Spain. How is it possible that I never get the info of my paternal side, just gets more complicated. Z225/9 then y16018 just to make matters more complicated.
What would be the reason for my haplogroup to be so mysterious besides the fact that more havent tested? There are many that can find there way back to there origins with paternal dna, in fact it seems most do.
Lasty, do you think 23 and me is the best way to get my autosomal info? It seems this is the only option I have available at this time unless you have other suggestions. And yes I did hear what you said about the generations only 8 gen back so wont help with paternal origin but at least I have autosomal that I can get more accurately at this time as I tested 1 year ago with ancestry im guessing.
Let me know and thanks

ArmandoR1b
12-27-2015, 10:33 PM
DF27 pooled in western Europe. It is still unknown where in Europe the first person that was DF27 lived. It will take good coverage ancient DNA for that to be determined. There is no question that it made it's way into Iberia, including Spain, but when that happened and how isn't clear.

Not all Basque are M153. In reality only 6.5% of Basque are M153 according to the most recent testing which was reported at http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4723-Dissection-of-the-Y-SNP-S116-in-Atlantic-Europe-and-Iberia-Valverde-et-al-2015&p=111565&viewfull=1#post111565 The Basques in that study weren't tested for Z225 or it's subclades but some of the DF27* Basque probably are Z225.

How many generations out of Spain do you have in your tree? If it is more than two then you won't have any more Iberian at 23andme than other Italians so you wouldn't have anything to gain in that respect with a 23andme test.

jutland
12-28-2015, 03:40 AM
Generation out would be since 400 years as per what my family states but in terms of names they are all from Spain until my mom entered the family, she was from N Italy as previously stated.
Just find in strange that autosomal dna suggestive of Italy, scandinavia but nothing from Spain. What bad luck as my Paternal dna seems to be a puzzle also.
Since further studies of my haplogroup wont help me with origin I would like to see if the more current testing for autosomal DNA suggest any clues. At least if the next test is better than the last and includes Spain I would be happy with that knowledge and in the future with more people tested I will get more resolution.
Do you know which is the best autosomal dna test to test from today, I use Ancestry before, as previously stated?
Thanks again.

jutland
01-29-2016, 05:29 AM
Update, I have been told by NG that I am in fact DF27+ and Y16018 +. The U152 was an error.
Just wonder if the regional is incorrect also? The NG representative told me that this matter will take time to resolve but I am happy
to get the info regarding the haplogroup.