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Jon
12-16-2015, 11:04 AM
Hi All,

Don't know if anyone's been keeping up with the conversation on L1335 over at the L21 project on Yahoo. L513 came up, in connection with Alex Woolf and the New Edinburgh history. We started to compare L193 with L1335 in terms of frequency. A few things strike me:

1. Based on recent data, including a brief perusal of FTDNA, L193 seems to be very much Scottish - with none of the expected links with England or Ireland (or at least very few).

2. It seems now to be quite widespread in Scotland - but apparantly with hotspots being Perthshire and the Hebrides.

My thoughts are: only Scotland=Picts; but then why Hebrides (and a good showing in Argyll and Ayrshire)?

Wild speculation, I know, but why on earth would a lineage stay so stubbornly in one country? It's been discussed on a separate forum, but perhaps it's because they had a vested interest in staying put. Perthshire was, after all, the site of the ancient royal seat of Alba; and those guys came from the west.

I may be way out here, and there may be a much simpler explanation, however :)

Mag Uidhir 6
12-17-2015, 01:13 AM
Jon, I'm still investigating the ancient ties between L193 and FGC9807 under the S5668 tribe. My suppositions are becoming clearer to a Scots "origin" in the overall Veneti migrations. It's my opinion that FGC9807 peeled off and headed west to Donegal during the Viking period of raids 675 to 900ad. From there FGC9807 wandered a bit through Co Fermanaugh and solidified as what would become the Uidhir tribe of the Fear Manach, growing and ultimately becoming the Mag Uidhir line known as Maguire.

Since there are other Maguires who are DF21, it's my opinion that their origins are from Co Monaghan where DF21 is the predominant SNP (rather than L513). This also tracks in line with the Colla legends. I also believe that the Maguire clan of the 14th to 17th century adopted the Colla legend to gain prominence during the Plantations.

Still early days in tracking SNPs to multiple families tho. Pretty sure we ain't from Mars...then again...?

Dubhthach
12-17-2015, 10:47 AM
I would imagine any adaption of lineage was done well before Plantation period. It would have probably be once the Maguires first came to prominence in Lordship of Fermanagh during the late 13th century. As men "on the make" no doubt a well paid friendly genealogist would have come given a bit of "flourish" to their genealogy. After all you couldn't be in position of Lordship without a copious genealogy that could be recited.

Nicholl's mention that the bulk of Maguires in later middle ages are specifically descended from son's of Donn Carrach apart from a number of septs that were as he said "terriotoritary unimportant".

Perhaps what we are thus seeing is that there existed a Maguire family who were rather minor players in West Monaghan (historically they were suppose to be neighbours of "Clann Ceallaigh" eg. MacDonnells of Monaghan), given turmoil in Fermanagh during the 12th/13th century (due to arrival of Cambro-Norman's) a new lineage expanded into power-vaccum (Donn Carrach -- which apepars to be L513+) and approriated the lineage framework of existing Maguire family.

Now that's just pure guess work on my part, but it wouldn't be that surprising. After all Donn Carrach as newly minted "King of Fermangh" would need a genealogy to help give him the "right to rule".

We also have to remember that Colla genealogy is quite a handy one to piggy back onto, as given the genealogical framework it than helps associated specific lineage with Conn of Hundred battles and the Dál Cuinn in general. I recall reading article there recently that part of reason that Somerland was given a Colla lineage was due to possibility of military alliance between him and the Ó Cearbhaill (O'Carroll's) of Airgialla during the 12th century.

When it comes to praise poetry a connection to Conn in general was highly sought after. Mapping a connection through the Colla's (which in itself is probably a falsified lineage for political/military reasons) was kinda "low hanging fruit" route to go.

I do find it interesting that we see a number of L513 type lineages in Bréifne (eg. Cavan/Leitrim), which makes me think that L513 has been in general Cavan/Fermanagh/Letrim area for a while.

Jon
12-17-2015, 10:52 AM
Any thoughts on the possibility of a Dal Riata link-up with the Scottish branches, e.g. L193? Or is that branch-off too early IYO?

TigerMW
02-03-2016, 03:11 PM
Any thoughts on the possibility of a Dal Riata link-up with the Scottish branches, e.g. L193? Or is that branch-off too early IYO?
I don't see any particular reason to associate Dal Riata with the Scottish branches of L513>L193. What s your reasoning?

Jon
02-03-2016, 07:46 PM
Recent information on frequency for L193 clades from SDNA: highest areas are the Hebrides and Perthshire (both 7%), followed by Argyll, Ayrshire and Aberdeenshire (4.5% each), followed by NE Scotland (4%). SE Scotland much lower (2.8%). Scotland itself was overwhelmingly the location for most L193 people - way ahead of both Ireland and England.

What confused me was the apparent anomaly of the extreme west (Hebrides) and Perthshire being the highest equal areas for L193. Perthshire could represent most anything, but for me the Hebrides is the most telling. People didn't tend to move out there in modern times - they started from there, and fanned out into other places. Dalriada was based in the west and then moved into Perthshire with the establishment of the Royal Kingdom of Alba around the 800's. That was my only reasoning, and I was interested in gathering the thoughts of others.

What is glaringly obvious from these statistics is that the L193 lineages simply must have been present in Scotland, remote areas included, from very early times.

MacUalraig
02-03-2016, 08:30 PM
Recent information on frequency for L193 clades from SDNA: highest areas are the Hebrides and Perthshire (both 7%), followed by Argyll, Ayrshire and Aberdeenshire (4.5% each), followed by NE Scotland (4%). SE Scotland much lower (2.8%). Scotland itself was overwhelmingly the location for most L193 people - way ahead of both Ireland and England.

What confused me was the apparent anomaly of the extreme west (Hebrides) and Perthshire being the highest equal areas for L193. Perthshire could represent most anything, but for me the Hebrides is the most telling. People didn't tend to move out there in modern times - they started from there, and fanned out into other places. Dalriada was based in the west and then moved into Perthshire with the establishment of the Royal Kingdom of Alba around the 800's. That was my only reasoning, and I was interested in gathering the thoughts of others.

What is glaringly obvious from these statistics is that the L193 lineages simply must have been present in Scotland, remote areas included, from very early times.

Perthshire can be hard to grasp especially as the language divide has shifted - in the Atlas of Scottish History they show it all the way down to Perth c. 1400 but receding to roughly correspond with the geographical highland line by c. 1500. When people do their genealogy (i.e. typically 18th C records) they are accustomed to viewing the county as roughly bisected into a highland Gaelic speaking half and a lowland English/Scots speaking half. When the First Statistical Account of Little Dunkeld was written the boundary ran through the middle of the parish and my Dow ancestors just squeezed into the Gaelic speaking part. You can see another divide in the distribution of Pictish placenames in the county which start to flourish around Strathtay eastward. This is the hottest spot in the country for the Kennedy surname.

Jon
02-03-2016, 08:51 PM
Absolutely - it's also one of the most beautiful counties of Scotland IMO. They are now pitching the ancient Pictish kingdom, long believed to be centered on modern-day Forteviot in Perthshire, much further north. Gaelic in Perthshire, as elsewhere in Scotland, has an ambiguous history, but my guess is that it was spoken in Perthshire from very early on, possibly contemporaneous with Dalraida. Perhaps aDNA will help to unravel some of this. But I feel L193 must play a central role.