A5846 (L21+, DF63-, DF13-)

[rms2]

Maybe this has already been discussed, but has anyone else noticed the SNP A5846 below L21? It is L21+ but DF63- and DF13-. So there's our third branch of L21.

It's a small group thus far.

7071

Note: I moved a couple of more Blancetts into that category since I made the screenshot above.

[errett]

rms2---I have been confirmed by both FTDNA and YSEQ as L-21*-------I am testing A5846 thru YSEQ and awaiting results. I am also F4006-. My FTDNA kit# B17094
in L-21 and subclades.

[errett]

YSEQ came back with a negative on A5846-----so still L-21*

[rms2]

YSEQ came back with a negative on A5846-----so still L-21*

What's your y-dna ancestral place of origin?

[errett]

Hi rms2-----I have a wall in South Carolina-----I don't have any matches in FTDNA with a Bradford surname----my matches are mostly Glenn, Gordon----so I am assuming that my Y-DNA is grounded in the British Isles----although I have not ruled out coastal areas of France. Any ideas on how I might proceed will be appreciated. Edward Errett Bradford

[rms2]

Hi rms2-----I have a wall in South Carolina-----I don't have any matches in FTDNA with a Bradford surname----my matches are mostly Glenn, Gordon----so I am assuming that my Y-DNA is grounded in the British Isles----although I have not ruled out coastal areas of France. Any ideas on how I might proceed will be appreciated. Edward Errett Bradford

You might want to try the Big Y, and how many str markers do you currently have?

[rms2]

Bigazzi, kit 267719, just got his A5846+ result from FTDNA yesterday. He is an Italian with an mdka from Certignano, just SE of Florence.

[rms2]

Here is a pic of the A5846+ category.

Blanchard and the variations of Blanchett are French surnames.

8130

[errett]

Well this will be a new branch under R-L21---- (A5846) soon, I guess---which will leave very few of us L21*------but additional branches will continue to come to the surface with broader testing----no doubt. Correction---I guess it already is a new branch, or it wouldn't be listed.

[errett]

"You might want to try the Big Y, and how many str markers do you currently have?"

I have 67 markers----I am going to do the Big Y sometime this year.

[errett]

I tested a new SNP under L-21-----BY3031 from YSEQ----came back a big negative-----so still L-21*

[swid]

Not terribly surprising, as BY3031 (or BY2899 as it appears on Alex' tree) appears to be a single-surname clade (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=770) at this time.

Have you considered testing any of the SNPs in the A7905 clade (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1663)?

[swid]

Coincidentally...there was a post this morning on the L21 FTDNA Project's activity feed from a man who has been confirmed A5846+ and didn't match any of the other known A5846+ surnames.

[errett]

Hi Swid-----I'll look into the A7905 clade---thanks----

[PMCGUN04]

Coincidentally...there was a post this morning on the L21 FTDNA Project's activity feed from a man who has been confirmed A5846+ and didn't match any of the other known A5846+ surnames.

swid,

How goes it? I think you are referring to me FTDNA #507599. Yeah, I am a serious genetic/genealogy junkie for sure. I grew up hearing legendary stories of our ancestors and the family name McLeod, of the Isle of Skye. My paternal grandfather used to tell me our family are descendants of Vikings. I grew up fascinated with the culture, I was probably the only kid in grade school that argued with the teacher that Christopher Columbus did not discover America. Fun times, especially when most debates resulted in lack of evidence on my teacher's behalf to refute my statements, I was sent to the principal's office on more than one occasion due to this subject. I got a solid black Valknut tattooed on my left wrist (a watch does not cover it up, was a little pissed the next morning when I woke up in my Vegas hotel room the next day).

Anyways... When my grandfather was on his way out (death) I tried to confirm data on our family, my paternal side, my last name is "Warden" (another field of rabbit holes) and wasn't able to get past the 1790's in Kentucky. My father spent a great deal of time researching the maternal family name "McLeod" and not Warden. I told him "that kinda sorta doesn't count Dad" (X-Chromosone).

Subsequently I decided to use my ability to spend money researching our lines from a "Z-to-A" perspective with FTDNA. I spent quite a bit, multiple tests, should have started with Big-Y, but decided to go the following route...

#1) Y-DNA67: R-M269
#2) R-M343 Backbone: R1b-L21
#3) L21 SNP Pack: R-A5846 (aka "R-WTF?")

I am awaiting results on the following pending tests...

#4) Big-Y:
#5) FamilyFinder
#6) mtDNA Full-Sequence
#7) Monoamine Oxidase A (Warrior Gene)

I have conducted so much research I think Google may hire me as a consultant. My web browser history on Chrome (you know how they show when you visited a page last? Well I can't find a search result that doesn't have this now). The surname Warden (or the word) was originally "Wardein" Norman-French. A5846+ is geographically vague in the sense it is "common" in Spain, Portugal, & the British Isles. Could't be more broad. I have no family names maternal or paternal on either side that are from, ever lived, or Surname-name-related to any of these countries. I do know that there is a lot of French surnames that share genetic similarities.

Everything I have researched points to a specific Viking Invader connection (geographically, Surname, genetic features - blonde, light eyes, etc..) except my DNA results. Well that isnt a fair statement, R-A5846 is simply just not studied enough to associate. Some research I have found some consistencies is Danish Vikings and the Norman Conquest (France).

If ANYONE has any reputable sources or theories on R-A5846 I am all ears. My family surnames are as follows...

My surname: Warden
Paternal female family name: McLeod
Maternal male surname: Jackson
Maternal female surname: De Alrdey

There is a gold star and 6-pack of domestic lager for anyone with any helpful info that may help! Let the comments ensue!

Thanks,

-Will

[PMCGUN04]

*BUMP*

[swid]

Yep, my mention of you here was from your posts on the L21 activity feed..I'm one of the guys who followed up on your questions there. (By the way, you may want to update your FTDNA privacy settings so that people who aren't also members of the L21 project can see your results.)

It's pretty clear that from your 67-marker results, your closest match among known A5846+ men is kit 357445. I'd say it's very likely that once your Big Y results come in you'll have some SNPs in common with him and create a new clade beneath A5846.

[errett]

PMCGUNO4----I feel your pain-----I am a L-21*----nothing I've tested so far under L-21 has been positive-----I haven't done the BigY yet-----not sure that I will any time soon-----my wife is a member of Clan McBean-----many of her fellow Clan members thought that their Y-DNA test would link them with the other McBean's in the clan-----doesn't always happen----some don't fall into any group even with the McBean surname ------just not enough data yet-----may be a long time before we get to that point-----all of my matches are primarily Glenn's and my surname is Bradford----I have no matches with a Bradford surname-----I'm fairly sure my people are from the British Isles, Western France, Switzerland or SW Germany----:) who knows-----I wish you luck---keep us updated----I hope your GF was right----this world needs more Vikings IMO.

[gaijin]

R-A5846+ is 100% Norman ... my surname Bigazzi derives from Bigoz, Wygots or Wigatz it was the name that the French used to call the early Normans / Vikings, because they were always saying By Gots, By Gots (for the Gods, they were pagans) attested by Wace: "Bigot has been supposed to have its origin in the By- God of a Northern tongue, and to have been used as a war-cry by early Normans, answering to the later Dex-aie. Anderson, in his Genealogical Tables, says, without quoting his authority, that Rollo was called By-got from his frequent use of the phrase." —Taylor. His famous exclamation, when he was asked to kiss King Charles's foot, " Ne si, by Got ! "are literally the only words that have been handed down to us of the old Dansk tongue. Wace says, "the French spoke scornfully, and called the Normans Bigoz and Draschiers " (consumers of barley, probably as the material of beer).
Source: Battle Abbey Roll https://archive.org/stream/battleabbeyrollw01battuoft/battleabbeyrollw01battuoft_djvu.txt
This surname is pan-european because the Normans use to travel a lot I found some Bigas in Spain, Bigot and Le Bigot in Britanny, Bigas in Normandy, Bigazzi e Bigozzi in Italy, two Bigod signed the Magna Charta in England but their lineages were soon extincted.

[PMCGUN04]

gaijin,

Thanks for the input, this certainly reaffirms a lot of my "Z-A" genealogy research. Here is an email response from George Ranney one of the FTDNA Viking Project Admins...

"Will,

You are in the right group with Viking Project, and here is why: All R1b-P312 "children" are found in Southern Scandinavia (the only area of commonality), and though you may be a rare R1b-P312/L21/A5846 your ancestors were surely near/in this area too.

For my R1b-P312/DF19 Project, it is even more obvious that we all were in Southern Scandinavia before most left (some are still in Southern Scandinavia: Denmark, Southern & Southwestern Norway, Southwestern Sweden). Another group R1b-P312/L238 is almost still completely in Norway and Sweden, with only some in Britain (especially Scotland) where Vikings came. The "brother" of R1b-P312, known as R1b-U106 is also found in Southern Scandinavia, as well as Frisia (Northern Coastal Netherlands), and Saxony, and Saxons which went further south into Germany as well as Britain.

So even though the bigger brothers under R1b-P312 are mostly outside of Southern Scandinavia (due to significant expansion elsewhere, displacing others), like: R1b-P312/L21 (heavily in Britain and Brittany, France), R1b-P312/U152 (heavily in NW Italy, Switzerland, France), R1b-P312/DF27 (only huge P312 group in Spain, as well as up the Atlantic coast to Norway, incl. Britain). The only significant place all of these P312 "children" exist is Southern Scandinavia (some of which now lies in NW Germanic coast), as does P312's "brother" U106 (as explained above).

They even now are uncovering more and more burials along Baltic Coast all the way to NW Germanic Coast (near what was Southern Scandinavia) showing R1b-M269 & R1b-P312 burials, now YSNP tested, buried near in time from when they 1st arrived there 2500-2300 BC (4500 - 4300 years ago).

Hope this helps, so please stay in all of your projects, you are correct to be in them. By the way, I also have Ward ancestors, but your Warden surname appears to be of Norman origin (Vikings to Normandy France). Also realize that Angles/Saxons/Frisians/Justes are also welcome in Viking & Invader Project, but you are most likely Viking to Normandy, then Normans to Britain. Do you know where your Wardens came from in Britain, and/or to the Americas.

Best wishes,

George"

Pretty interesting stuff here, hope this helps more R-A5846 folks!

[errett]

Well still L-21*--------negative on A7905-

[gaijin]

Hello PMCGUN04 are you A5845-?

[swid]

Subsequently I decided to use my ability to spend money researching our lines from a "Z-to-A" perspective with FTDNA. I spent quite a bit, multiple tests, should have started with Big-Y, but decided to go the following route...

#1) Y-DNA67: R-M269
#2) R-M343 Backbone: R1b-L21
#3) L21 SNP Pack: R-A5846 (aka "R-WTF?")

I am awaiting results on the following pending tests...

#4) Big-Y:


Congrats on getting your Big Y results back; I see that you submitted them to Alex' Big Tree, where (as suspected), you defined a new branch underneath A5846 (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2013) with 30+ SNPs shared with Tate.

You may want to submit you results to YFull as well, as they'll provide an estimate of the time back to your last shared ancestor with Tate.

[PMCGUN04]

Hello PMCGUN04 are you A5845-?

No, I am A5845- (NEG)

You can find me on FTDNA (#507599) and on YSearch (#X4PCT)

[PMCGUN04]

Congrats on getting your Big Y results back; I see that you submitted them to Alex' Big Tree, where (as suspected), you defined a new branch underneath A5846 (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2013) with 30+ SNPs shared with Tate.

You may want to submit you results to YFull as well, as they'll provide an estimate of the time back to your last shared ancestor with Tate.

Not sure why Alex opted to place the Scotland flag badge, I am speculating that my most distant known ancestor in Robert Warden came from Scotland. I know there is one writtedn record (obituary of his grandson AJ Warden, Sr.) stating that he immigrated from Wales, but from what I know from that time period people were under heavy persecution from the Church/Gov't and moved around until ultimately leaving the Isles all together. So Scotland is not accurate or confirmed.

I reached out to Tate and he referred me to Brian Berry who was kinda helpful, but wasn't able to provide anything useful in terms of "Warden" a very rare and difficult to trace Surname. He did mention Bigazzi, Berry, Blanchett, and of course Tate - all of which are Normandy in origin, except Bigazzi - the Italian Vikings.

If anyone has anything helpful please let me know. Here is the URL link to the obituary in question, it is the ONLY document that seems reliable that I have been forced to assume is accurate - the problem is that it has led me down more rabbit holes and dead ends than anything else, which leads me to believe the Wales (origin) reference isn't accurate, and of course no mention of Scotland either.

http://www.mygenealogyhound.com/kentucky-biographies/ky-ballard-county-biographies/a-j-warden-genealogy-ballard-county-kentucky.html#

Any help is GREATLY appreciated!

[PMCGUN04]

So... FTDNA must have made an error as I was presumed to be in haplogroup R-A5846 but now that appears to be NEG. Now my haplogroup says R-BY11862. Per my previous post, I am in fact A5845+, the following are all my SNP results.. If anyone can help clarify what this new haplogroup subclade relates/originates from I would greatly appreciate it..

P297+, P310+, P311+, P312+, L21+, L23+, L389+, L51+, L278+, M269+, A5846+, A5846+, BY11862+, BY11863+, BY11864+, BY11865+, BY11866+, BY11867+, BY11868+, BY11869+, BY11870+, BY11872+, BY11874+, BY11875+, BY11876+, BY11877+, BY11878+, BY11879+, BY11882+, BY11883+, BY11884+, BY11885+, BY11886+, BY11887+, BY11888+, BY11889+, BY11890+, CTS10834+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3358+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS4244+, CTS4368+, CTS623+, F115+, F1209+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2142+, F2155+, F2587+, F2688+, F2837+, F2985+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F3335+, F3556+, F3692+, F47+, F719+, F82+, L1090+, L11+, L132+, L138+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L21+, L23+, L265+, L278+, L350+, L389+, L407+, L459+, L468+, L470+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L506+, L51+, L52+, L585+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L82+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M235+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P310+, P312+, P316+, PAGES00026+, PAGES00081+, PAGES00083+, PF2591+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6409+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6463+, PF6464+, PF6469+, PF6470+, PF6477+, PF6479+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6520+, PF6524+, s3+, V168+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V221+, V241+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000082+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000191+, L21+, M343+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000288+, Z260+, Z290+, M478-, M73-, MC14-, L226-, L371-, L513-, L555-, L583-, L679-, L96-, M222-, MC14-, S1021-, S1026-, S1050-, S1051-, S1088-, S11556-, S12547-, S16264-, S19268-, S19558-, S9294-, S9793-, Y9091-, Y9096-, YSC0000207-, BY3228-, BY3229-, BY3230-, BY3231-, BY561-, BY575-, BY592-, BY595-, BY596-, BY674-, BY676-, BY701-, BY747-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS1864-, CTS2457-, CTS310-, CTS3386-, CTS3937-, CTS4466-, CTS6919-, CTS9686-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, F4006-, FGC10047-, FGC11134-, FGC11293-, FGC11963-, FGC11986-, FGC13300-, FGC13304-, FGC13758-, FGC13780-, FGC13899-, FGC15565-, FGC17164-, FGC18030-, FGC18229-, FGC18230-, FGC19319-, FGC23554-, FGC2913-, FGC30632-, FGC32861-, FGC34569-, FGC35995-, FGC36422-, FGC436-, FGC5494-, FGC5511-, FGC5512-, FGC5549-, FGC5561-, FGC7448-, FGC9655-, L1065-, L1335-, L1444-, Z16245-, Z16246-, Z16250-, Z16500-, Z16502-, Z16506-, Z16886-, Z16891-, Z16910-, Z16943-, Z16944-, Z17300-, Z17553-, Z17653-, Z17662-, Z17901-, Z17967-, Z17971-, Z17992-, Z18092-, Z18108-, Z18600-, Z19670-, Z2185-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542-, Z255-, Z3000-, ZS3152-, ZZ10_1-, ZZ10_2-, PF6063-, PF6145-, A5917-, A6078-, A6138-, A7254-, A7297-, A7298-, A7302-, A7806-, A7810-, A7812-, A897-, A92-, A959-, A967-, A970-, BY118-, BY246-, BY2583-, BY2601-, BY2604-, BY2666-, BY2723-, BY2868-, BY2899-, BY2916-, BY2972-, BY3070-, BY317-, BY3226-, M335-, L371-, L513-, L584-, L617-, L881-, M1994-, M222-, L408-, L47-, L48-, L238-, L1065-, L1335-, L2-, A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS3937-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2017-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC3861-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, PF3252-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S6317-, S7721-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542-, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z3000-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z9-, A1078-, A1101-, A1105-, A1120-, A1148-, A1149-, A1308-, A1772-, A194-, A2121-, A228-, A237-, A241-, A286-, A5381-, A545-, A551-, A555-, A5843-, A5845-, FGC5798*, DF27*, BY3227*, YFS444735*

[PMCGUN04]

Hi rms2-----I have a wall in South Carolina-----I don't have any matches in FTDNA with a Bradford surname----my matches are mostly Glenn, Gordon----so I am assuming that my Y-DNA is grounded in the British Isles----although I have not ruled out coastal areas of France. Any ideas on how I might proceed will be appreciated. Edward Errett Bradford

I am R-BY11862 (formally R-A5846) and I too have hit a wall in the "Carolinas". Trying to track down a Robert Warden that came over "as early as 1755...and settled in one of the Carolinas". Father to William B. Warden, grandfather to Andrew Jackson ("AJ") Warden, Sr., ...Jr.

My last name is WARDEN, FTDNA #507599, GedMatch #T573162

I have zero idea where we came from, all I know is that I am dead-red match to Tate (per first/initial post on this thread). Any info please message me.

Thanks,

-WW