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XooR
12-28-2015, 04:09 PM
Laz Y-DNA Distribution

I gathered Laz Y-DNA information from various projects and created a pie chart. I will update periodically when I have more data. Most of the data is from FTDNA.

N=54 (December 26, 2015)



Haplogroup
Percentage


J2=18
33.33%


G2=17
31.48%


L=6
11.11%


R1b=5
9.26%


J1=3
5.56%


I=2
3.70%


E=2
3.70%


G1=1
1.85%








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J Man
12-28-2015, 04:41 PM
Makes sense and looks good.

Caspian
12-28-2015, 09:02 PM
I saw a different distribution in the another forum as below.

L1b - 42%
J2a - 28%
G2a - 17%
J1 - 3%
R1b1a2 - 3%
E1b1b - 6%
I2a - 3%

(Rates are probably rounded and I don't know what is source)

Also, L1b is found more than 30% among Hemshins (from Rize and Artvin), found about 25% among Pontic Greeks (from Trabzon, Gümüşhane and Erzurum) and found about 20% among Megrelians (mostly from Zugdidi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugdidi)). The members of famous Megrelian dynasties of Georgia are belong to this haplogroup. Sources are FTDNA projects.

I don't know which samples that were used in this chart, but I'm sure that Lazes have more L1b than 11%.

XooR
01-05-2016, 07:53 PM
I saw a different distribution in the another forum as below.

L1b - 42%
J2a - 28%
G2a - 17%
J1 - 3%
R1b1a2 - 3%
E1b1b - 6%
I2a - 3%

(Rates are probably rounded and I don't know what is source)

Also, L1b is found more than 30% among Hemshins (from Rize and Artvin), found about 25% among Pontic Greeks (from Trabzon, Gümüşhane and Erzurum) and found about 20% among Megrelians (mostly from Zugdidi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugdidi)). The members of famous Megrelian dynasties of Georgia are belong to this haplogroup. Sources are FTDNA projects.

I don't know which samples that were used in this chart, but I'm sure that Lazes have more L1b than 11%.

Caspian,

You are right, L1b percentage was very high in the beginning , as time passed by there was no additional "L" found, as a matter of fact "L" percentage declined rapidly. I just found a chart from April 2015, which total number of input was (24).
7177
I dont really have old data for Megrelians but when I created Laz percentages I also collected Megrel data and combined them since according to some historians Laz and Megrel are the same people but different religion + nationality. Anyways attached are Laz and Megrel Y-DNA distributions. Data was mostly collected from FTDNA.
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Caspian
01-06-2016, 01:36 AM
Caspian,

You are right, L1b percentage was very high in the beginning , as time passed by there was no additional "L" found, as a matter of fact "L" percentage declined rapidly. I just found a chart from April 2015, which total number of input was (24).
7177
I dont really have old data for Megrelians but when I created Laz percentages I also collected Megrel data and combined them since according to some historians Laz and Megrel are the same people but different religion + nationality. Anyways attached are Laz and Megrel Y-DNA distributions. Data was mostly collected from FTDNA.
7178

Hello Xoor,

Thank you for information.

I don't know numbers and details of Laz samples at FTDNA projects. You're right that it's the old distribution. I could found only 26 Laz samples at FTDNA Georgian project, but probably you have more data. I'm only wonder that are all of the samples in your database really ethnic Laz or Pseudo-Laz Northeast Anatolian? Becuse I know that sometimes the "Laz" term is used for all people who live from Samsun to Artvin in Turkey as you know.

As for the Megrelians, I've found 43 Megrelian samples at the FTDNA Georgian project and 9 of them (21%) are L1b. You have probably found 5 Megrelian L1b among 40 samples. I think I have made mistakes. There are 3 L1b samples who have "Chikovani" surname and I thought they are Megrelian because Chikovani dynasty were rulers of Megrelia and their capital was Zugdidi. However, their origin probably was Svan according to their surname, because -ani is a Svan surname from Western Georgia according to this article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_name#Surnames

Other 6 Megrelian L1b samples are below.

259003 Megrelian
259001 Megrelian
311524 Shelia Zugdidi, Anaklia, Sachino, megrel
259004 Megrelian
250027 Kudava Mamuka Kudava, XVIII c, Zemo Nagvazao, Georgia
258974 Megrelian

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Georgia/default.aspx?section=yresults

6 samples among 40 Megrelians are L1b according to my data now :) :) so 15% of them and 8.5% (4/47) of Svans are L1b.

Padre Organtino
01-21-2016, 11:33 AM
Can you make the sample with the Lazs proper excluding Mingrelians?

The Saite
09-11-2017, 10:55 PM
That's interesting
I expected J1 percentages to be bigger

Hedda Gabler
09-13-2017, 10:54 AM
Haplogroup L (and its subclades, particularly L1b) is quite high among Lazs. Strange, it is quite low among the other Kartvelian populations (Georgians, etc.)

Lupus82
09-18-2017, 07:50 PM
As far as I know, the haplogroup L is east Iranian. Some of those L males travelled around the Caspian Sea and settled in Caucasus, gradually expanding Southwardly into Anatolia. Hence the large concentration of the L haplogroup among the Laz people.

Anabasis
09-19-2017, 03:53 AM
As far as I know, the haplogroup L is east Iranian. Some of those L males travelled around the Caspian Sea and settled in Caucasus, gradually expanding Southwardly into Anatolia. Hence the large concentration of the L haplogroup among the Laz people.

good fiction but science is not a fiction. Only movies may be.

Let me inform you then. The subsclade of South caucasian L1b is L1b-PH8 and very unique to region so far. On the other hand it might be 3000-3500 years old. Here is the yfull tree of pontic cluster of L. https://yfull.com/tree/L-Y16366/

What is interesting is the closest match to PH8 is a Mountain jew from Dagestan in the sister clade of Ph8 which mRCA of 9400 but still there is no any eastern iranian so far. As far as we talk about makro haplogroups like R, L and j, we should never claim a specific plaece for a origin. First L man may have origin in anywhere in the world as far as L has 46 thousand years old.

About Ph8, i suspect that Ph8 may have oriign of south western iran or mesopotamian origin before the indo iranian invasion on the region

Lupus82
09-19-2017, 01:13 PM
I was not talking about the specific clade of the L1b

There is extensive presence of the haplogroup L in and around Afghanistan/Pakistan/East Iran. It radiates southwardly into India and Westerwardly into Iran and Anatolia. Certain subclades of it might be specific to the Caucasus region. But it did not originate there. Unlikely in my opinion given their reach.

Do you have the subclade breakdown of the haplogroup G2 among the Laz?

XooR
09-19-2017, 01:38 PM
I was not talking about the specific clade of the L1b

There is extensive presence of the haplogroup L in and around Afghanistan/Pakistan/East Iran. It radiates southwardly into India and Westerwardly into Iran and Anatolia. Certain subclades of it might be specific to the Caucasus region. But it did not originate there. Unlikely in my opinion given their reach.

Do you have the subclade breakdown of the haplogroup G2 among the Laz?

Lupus82,

You can see details in this paper.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-017-1770-2

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rafael
09-21-2017, 07:20 AM
Why on earth are laz & circassian related topics on turkic forum?? I get it that they are minorities in turkey but nonetheless they are caucasian & kartvelian people so the topics regarding their ethnic makeup or ancestry should be posted elsewhere. No Offense.

DMXX
09-28-2017, 06:00 PM
This is a good point. Moving the thread shortly to the Caucasus section with a one-week expiring redirect. I'm not sure why some of us had a blind spot regarding that!

vettor
10-06-2017, 05:51 PM
Lupus82,

You can see details in this paper.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-017-1770-2

18865

Krasnodar in your chart is NW of modern Sochi in south Russia , what does it have to do with Armenia and Georgia ?

It was the area of the Circassian "blue eyed" people . Many taken as slaves from the port of Azov by Venetian merchants from ~1210 to ~1450

https://s20.postimg.org/o6glc0399/slave_in_ven.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

There is a difference between Russians and Circassians

some authors state slavery was abolished in Venice in 1380 and some say around 1450

Anabasis
10-07-2017, 02:21 AM
Krasnodar in your chart is NW of modern Sochi in south Russia , what does it have to do with Armenia and Georgia ?

It was the area of the Circassian "blue eyed" people . Many taken as slaves from the port of Azov by Venetian merchants from ~1210 to ~1450

https://s20.postimg.org/o6glc0399/slave_in_ven.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

There is a difference between Russians and Circassians

some authors state slavery was abolished in Venice in 1380 and some say around 1450

Its not the Krasnador average but Armenians in Krasnador who moved there in early 1900's due to civil war in ottoman empire.

Akatosh86
11-02-2017, 04:49 AM
interestingly enough, couple of years ago there was some sort of research of y-dna lineages among the Gurians, who form a Georgian-speaking intermediate ethnographic group between Mingrelia and Lazistan.

I don't have the links for the results and only 30 of us were tested (and there was no deep testing involved, alas) , but interestingly enough there was not a single L1b in the results. There was the traditional 30-30% of G2a and J2, with r1b and I taking the third and fourth places with around 12-10% each

XooR
11-25-2017, 02:27 AM
After a hiatus of almost 2 years, I am ready to make my first update. Initially I had 54 samples and now I have almost doubled the size of samples to 102. The biggest help was adding the results from Balonovsky's paper (36). The rest was gathered from FTDNA project pages and various peoples tested from 23andme and Geno.

N=102 (November 24, 2017)

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Lupus82
12-12-2017, 01:07 AM
No R1a yet they have I2? Pretty interesting.