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Sikeliot
12-30-2015, 05:20 AM
Autosomally, they appear to be, as well as their y-dna and mtdna.

When you remove the "Ashkenazi" cluster on tests, they come up with roughly half Italian DNA (probably closer to North Italy and Tuscany) and half Levantine or other West Asian. This combination, in total, makes them plot in Sicily.

wandering_amorite
12-30-2015, 07:07 AM
There's something intuitively off about this recent bit of received wisdom about the nature of Ashkenazi Jews' European component.
Without the famous West Eurasian plot which has Ashkenazim overlapping Sicilians and other South Italians, nobody would think to call Ashkenazim an entirely Mediterranean population. There are way too many European Jews with light Northern/Central European features to support this interpretation.

kingjohn
12-30-2015, 07:16 AM
dear sikeliot,
you are right that autosomally they are a mainly mix
of levantine middle eastern + southern european
thats what this paper shows by anlaysing snps the aschenazi are mix of middle eastern snp + southern european snp + little eastern euro snp
https://shaicarmi.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/aj_admixture_poster.pdf

p.s not all aschenazi the same
i put 2 german jews gedmatch kits in eurogenes k36 that in my opinion is one of the best calculator in gedmatch.
they score 0% in east central euro as oposed to me with aschenazi roots in ukraine and lithaunia who score 5%.
the refrences for east central euro { lithaunians , belarussians, ukranians}
on the contrary 2 of this german jews score 5% french { which is based on hgdp samples maybe there conection to the rhine i score 0.5% almost nothing}
best regards
adam

Sikeliot
12-30-2015, 04:39 PM
There's something intuitively off about this recent bit of received wisdom about the nature of Ashkenazi Jews' European component.
Without the famous West Eurasian plot which has Ashkenazim overlapping Sicilians and other South Italians, nobody would think to call Ashkenazim an entirely Mediterranean population. There are way too many European Jews with light Northern/Central European features to support this interpretation.

But they are not a full Mediterranean group. North Italians have a lot of Central European influence phenotypically and often look Swiss/Austrian. Combining their genes and appearance with Levantine makes them plot in Sicily, but maybe natural selection led to Italic features predominating over Levantine?

John Doe
12-30-2015, 04:49 PM
But they are not a full Mediterranean group. North Italians have a lot of Central European influence phenotypically and often look Swiss/Austrian. Combining their genes and appearance with Levantine makes them plot in Sicily, but maybe natural selection led to Italic features predominating over Levantine?

The problem with this hypothesis is the complete lack of IBD sharing with North Italians, or with Germans, or East Europeans or West Europeans. However, AJs do share IBD segments with Greeks, which may provide the link to their plotting alongside Sicilians and Maltese rather than Druze and Assyrians. Historically this would also fit, as between the late 4th century BCE and the early 1st century CE many Greek speaking Hellenistic Jewish communities were established throughout the Eastern Mediterranean and even on the shore of the Levant. Also, there might be an even older link, stretching back to the late Bronze Age and the Aegean settlers on the Levantine coast.

Sikeliot
12-30-2015, 05:12 PM
The problem with this hypothesis is the complete lack of IBD sharing with North Italians, or with Germans, or East Europeans or West Europeans. However, AJs do share IBD segments with Greeks, which may provide the link to their plotting alongside Sicilians and Maltese rather than Druze and Assyrians..

I've seen people say this but have seen no evidence of IBD sharing with Greeks nor any study supporting it. Moreover, Greeks have high IBD sharing with the Slavic groups, and Jews not having this would imply they do not have Greek ancestry. Their haplogroups on the maternal side also match with northern Italy, not Greeks.

If you don't have Eastern European affinity, you cannot be part Greek. This is what I have learned. There are so little East European/Balto-Slavic affinities in Sicily that it no longer makes sense to say we have Greek ancestry either.

John Doe
12-30-2015, 05:27 PM
I've seen people say this but have seen no evidence of IBD sharing with Greeks nor any study supporting it. Moreover, Greeks have high IBD sharing with the Slavic groups, and Jews not having this would imply they do not have Greek ancestry. Their haplogroups on the maternal side also match with northern Italy, not Greeks.

If you don't have Eastern European affinity, you cannot be part Greek. This is what I have learned. There are so little East European/Balto-Slavic affinities in Sicily that it no longer makes sense to say we have Greek ancestry either.

https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/ashkenaziibd1.png
This is a map of IBD sharing with Ashkenazis, it shows only Greeks, Basques and to a lesser extent East Ukrainians (in the last case it might be due to gene flow from AJs to the outer population rather than the other way around) as sharing significant IBD segments with AJs. as for Uniparental markers, most AJs (including myself) belong to markers that are today very rare outside of non Ashkenazis and are therefore difficult to trace, but many of those markers can be traced back to West Asia and the spread of agriculture in one way or another. What we really need is ancient DNA from pre exilic Jews, for now there has been a case of sampling maternal markers from a couple of pre exilic Jews, they turned out to be W, H and another one. I'm fairly sure that there is a distinction between Greek Islanders and mainland Greeks (especially those from Thessaly and Macedon).

kingjohn
12-30-2015, 05:53 PM
jon doe,
with east ukranians if there is indid
ibd with aschenazi it sound very logic.
probably jews who converted to christian relgion.
regards
adam

Sikeliot
12-30-2015, 06:02 PM
https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/ashkenaziibd1.png
This is a map of IBD sharing with Ashkenazis, it shows only Greeks, Basques and to a lesser extent East Ukrainians (in the last case it might be due to gene flow from AJs to the outer population rather than the other way around) as sharing significant IBD segments with AJs. as for Uniparental markers, most AJs (including myself) belong to markers that are today very rare outside of non Ashkenazis and are therefore difficult to trace, but many of those markers can be traced back to West Asia and the spread of agriculture in one way or another. What we really need is ancient DNA from pre exilic Jews, for now there has been a case of sampling maternal markers from a couple of pre exilic Jews, they turned out to be W, H and another one. I'm fairly sure that there is a distinction between Greek Islanders and mainland Greeks (especially those from Thessaly and Macedon).

That map does not show Greeks having a particularly higher IBD sharing with Ashkenazim than any other group. And it could very well be the reverse -- assimilated Jews in some places in Greece. Either way, if you really had Greek genes it would lead to higher autosomal influence from the Balkans and NE Europe, which you do not have and therefore are not part Greek.

John Doe
12-30-2015, 06:20 PM
That map does not show Greeks having a particularly higher IBD sharing with Ashkenazim than any other group. And it could very well be the reverse -- assimilated Jews in some places in Greece. Either way, if you really had Greek genes it would lead to higher autosomal influence from the Balkans and NE Europe, which you do not have and therefore are not part Greek.The darker the colour the higher the IBD segments so yes Greeks do share significant IBD segments with AJs. As for the Slavic admixture, it is very likely the Southeast Euro link is most likely pre Slavic migration (Hellenistic period and/or late Bronze age). And as for the geneflow from AJs to Greeks it doesn't contrast and in fact is quite plausible as well, as we know many Jews in the Roman period belonged to the early Christian movement and therefore eventually disconnected from the Jewish world for the Greek speaking East Mediterranean life.

John Doe
12-30-2015, 06:23 PM
jon doe,
with east ukranians if there is indid
ibd with aschenazi it sound very logic.
probably jews who converted to christian relgion.
regards
adam

Indeed, it can also be because of Cossack rape.

kingjohn
12-30-2015, 06:29 PM
check this out
real ibd of aschenazi jews acording to fast ibd anlaysis of dienekes
http://dienekes.blogspot.co.il/2012/08/fastibd-analysis-of-several-jewish-and.html
is in that order :
aschenazi jews , sefhardic jews , morrocan jews, north african jews, lithaunian, polish , ukranians.
p.s very logical since aschenazi jews lived in easteren europe from 1400-1939 so ther must have been some gene flow
we dont know it's direction yet.

adam

John Doe
12-30-2015, 06:35 PM
check this out
real ibd of aschenazi jews acording to fast ibd anlaysis of dienekes
http://dienekes.blogspot.co.il/2012/08/fastibd-analysis-of-several-jewish-and.html
is in that order :
aschenazi jews , sefhardic jews , morrocan jews, north african jews, lithaunian, polish , ukranians.
p.s very logical since aschenazi jews lived in easteren europe from 1400-1939 so ther must have been some gene flow
we dont know it's direction yet.

adam

It's much much more likely there has been gene flow from AJs to East Europeans than the other way around, the former option granted the access to the rest of society and also incentives usually provided for Jews who converted (shelter, acceptance etc), on the other hand, the latter option would shun one from society and force him into a usually hated minority (not to mention the lack of incentive to males specifically as they had to go through circumcision as adults which at the time with no antibiotics or modern science could have caused death).

kingjohn
12-30-2015, 06:45 PM
agree with you completely on the direction of the gene flow { from jews to the eastern european}
but i gave the link to show you and other that among europeans
aschenazi share ibd with eastern european doron behar also noted this in his paper
go to page 24 http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=humbiol_preprints
best regards
adam

Agamemnon
12-30-2015, 06:46 PM
Like John Doe said, Greek admixture would actually make more sense than Italian admixture for a plethora of different reasons, some relating to genetics, others relating to the diaspora's emergence in a Hellenistic environment.

Sikeliot
12-30-2015, 07:06 PM
The darker the colour the higher the IBD segments so yes Greeks do share significant IBD segments with AJs. As for the Slavic admixture, it is very likely the Southeast Euro link is most likely pre Slavic migration (Hellenistic period and/or late Bronze age). And as for the geneflow from AJs to Greeks it doesn't contrast and in fact is quite plausible as well, as we know many Jews in the Roman period belonged to the early Christian movement and therefore eventually disconnected from the Jewish world for the Greek speaking East Mediterranean life.

So you propose the admixture took place before Slavic influences came to Greece.
Because Greeks have high IBD sharing with Slavs as well, especially Poland, Russia, and Ukraine as well as every other Balkan nation. Today's Greeks are genetically Balkan.

But what I am curious is, how does mixing Levantine and Greek come out in Sicily? Sicilians are somewhere between Greeks from the mainland and Levantines genetically now because Greeks were pulled north by the Slavic influences, but pre-Slavic Greeks would have been closer to Sicilians than they are today.

Sikeliot
12-30-2015, 07:06 PM
Like John Doe said, Greek admixture would actually make more sense than Italian admixture for a plethora of different reasons, some relating to genetics, others relating to the diaspora's emergence in a Hellenistic environment.

But how do you justify genetically why Ashkenazim are similar to today's Sicilians and not today's Greeks on an autosomal level?

John Doe
12-30-2015, 07:10 PM
But how do you justify genetically why Ashkenazim are similar to today's Sicilians and not today's Greeks on an autosomal level?

Due to Slavic and other North European influences that affected mainland Greeks and not Greek islanders.

Sikeliot
12-30-2015, 07:14 PM
Due to Slavic and other North European influences that affected mainland Greeks and not Greek islanders.

This doesn't make sense to me. Aegean islanders are autosomally close to today's Sicilians. But the other part of Ashkenazim is Levantine. Mixing Aegean islands with Levantine would plot them in Cyprus, not with Sicily or the modern day Aegean.

But Ashkenazim plot WITH today's Sicilians, Cretans, Rhodians, Neapolitans etc.

John Doe
12-30-2015, 07:21 PM
This doesn't make sense to me. Aegean islanders are autosomally close to today's Sicilians. But the other part of Ashkenazim is Levantine. Mixing Aegean islands with Levantine would plot them in Cyprus, not with Sicily or the modern day Aegean.

But Ashkenazim plot WITH today's Sicilians, Cretans, Rhodians, Neapolitans etc.
Perhaps the Slavic influence in Greece is overestimated? We're scrambling in the dark here, due to the lack of Ancient DNA samples, we can only infer.

Sikeliot
12-30-2015, 07:31 PM
Perhaps the Slavic influence in Greece is overestimated? We're scrambling in the dark here, due to the lack of Ancient DNA samples, we can only infer.

Well then you'd have to assume Greeks have always plotted where they do now and just have higher Indo-European.

But my question is how a combination of Aegean and Levantine could come out like Sicilians today, when Sicilians (and really, all southern Italians) themselves are really an Aegean islander population genetically?

John Doe
12-30-2015, 07:39 PM
Well then you'd have to assume Greeks have always plotted where they do now and just have higher Indo-European.

But my question is how a combination of Aegean and Levantine could come out like Sicilians today, when Sicilians (and really, all southern Italians) themselves are really an Aegean islander population genetically?

I'd say Sicilians and Maltese might actually be more of a combination of European and North African populations rather than Levantine ones (given the proximity to North Africa and the history of said islands being battlegrounds between European Christendom and the Islamic Maghreb).

Sikeliot
12-30-2015, 07:40 PM
I'd say Sicilians and Maltese might actually be more of a combination of European and North African populations rather than Levantine ones (given the proximity to North Africa and the history of said islands being battlegrounds between European Christendom and the Islamic Maghreb).

Genetically they have a North African component, but most of their genetic affinity is West Asian.

John Doe
12-30-2015, 07:41 PM
Well then you'd have to assume Greeks have always plotted where they do now and just have higher Indo-European.

Again, we're walking in the dark here, don't assume we have all the answers because we don't, there's still a lot to discover (assuming we will ever) especially concerning sampling of Ancient DNA from the regions of Europe and the Near East from the past 2,000-4,000 years, until that happens (again if ever) let's not jump to conclusions as can happen from blind and pure speculation.

Sikeliot
12-30-2015, 07:44 PM
Again, we're walking in the dark here, don't assume we have all the answers because we don't, there's still a lot to discover (assuming we will ever) especially concerning sampling of Ancient DNA from the regions of Europe and the Near East from the past 2,000-4,000 years, until that happens (again if ever) let's not jump to conclusions as can happen from blind and pure speculation.

I just know Ashkenazim and Sicilians both can be modeled as half North Italian, half Levantine. Greeks can be modeled as Sicilian + Slavic. So Ashkenazim having Greek genes seems unlikely to me. Moreover you can have high IBD sharing with a group and not have much autosomal impact from them.

But actually yes, North Africans and southernmost Italians do have high IBD sharing also.

Sikeliot
12-30-2015, 09:09 PM
I am still very confused about this and I see no way this could be possible.

Shaikorth
12-30-2015, 09:28 PM
I just know Ashkenazim and Sicilians both can be modeled as half North Italian, half Levantine. Greeks can be modeled as Sicilian + Slavic. So Ashkenazim having Greek genes seems unlikely to me. Moreover you can have high IBD sharing with a group and not have much autosomal impact from them.

But actually yes, North Africans and southernmost Italians do have high IBD sharing also.

Linkage disequilibrium admixture test (ALDER) also points towards North Africa. Fiorito et al shows significant signals involving many West Asian populations for North and Central Italy, but South Italy only has them with Druze (a very peculiar group), and even those are not the strongest ones.

http://oi64.tinypic.com/t6p5ef.jpg
http://oi63.tinypic.com/111i2cz.jpg
http://oi64.tinypic.com/jfccas.jpg

sweuro
12-30-2015, 09:29 PM
I'd say Sicilians and Maltese might actually be more of a combination of European and North African populations rather than Levantine ones (given the proximity to North Africa and the history of said islands being battlegrounds between European Christendom and the Islamic Maghreb).
This doesn't make any sense. The north-african input is present in them, but minor, whereas their Levantine could be almost half of their genome compared to other europeans. Also, take in account North-Africa have very low caucasus, whereas Sicilians/Maltese have huge amounts of it.

Agamemnon
12-30-2015, 09:37 PM
But how do you justify genetically why Ashkenazim are similar to today's Sicilians and not today's Greeks on an autosomal level?

Good question: It's possible that the Greeks who mixed with the early diasporic Jews were more similar to Tuscans and North Italians (more EF-like and less EHG-shifted) than contemporary mainland Greeks and Aegean Greeks. Mind you, I'm not saying that Western Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, etc) aren't part Italian-part Levantine, I'm just saying that Greek admixture would make more sense than Italian admixture.

vettor
12-30-2015, 09:46 PM
Good question: It's possible that the mainland Greeks who mixed with the early diasporic Jews were more similar to Tuscans and North Italians (more EEF-like and less EHG-shifted) than contemporary mainland Greeks and Aegean Greeks. Mind you, I'm not saying that Western Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, etc) aren't part Italian-part Levantine, I'm just saying that Greek admixture would make more sense than Italian admixture.

Isn't sephatic , means jews from solely Iberia, migrating to Italy first and then the levant from 1482 ?

I can agree that the original jews came via the middle-east and also via phoenician and greek travels, but , does that admixture still resonate from bronze-age migrations.

there is a point one must split in time when one needs to classify the difference between Sephatic and Ashkenazi

Agamemnon
12-30-2015, 09:50 PM
Isn't sephatic , means jews from solely Iberia, migrating to Italy first and then the levant from 1482 ?

I can agree that the original jews came via the middle-east and also via phoenician and greek travels, but , does that admixture still resonate from bronze-age migrations.

there is a point one must split in time when one needs to classify the difference between Sephatic and Ashkenazi

Ashkenazi and Sephardic (especially Turkish, Bulgarian along with Romaniote and Italian Jews) Jews are near-identical from a genetic standpoint, while there are a few subtle differences you could argue that they're basically one population. I seriously doubt Sephardic Jews have much Iberian admixture, if any at all.

lgmayka
12-30-2015, 11:54 PM
with east ukranians if there is indid
ibd with aschenazi it sound very logic.
probably jews who converted to christian relgion.
According to Wikipedia, 26,000 Frankists (members of a Jewish messianic sect) converted to Christianity in Poland by 1790 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Frank#Baptism_of_the_Frankists).

lgmayka
12-30-2015, 11:57 PM
Moreover, Greeks have high IBD sharing with the Slavic groups, and Jews not having this would imply they do not have Greek ancestry.
The affinity between Greeks and Slavs is believed to date from the Slavic expansion in the 5th century CE and beyond, whereas the hypothesized affinity between Greeks and Ashkenazi Jews would date from the Classical Era several centuries earlier. Thus, the latter would not imply an affinity between Slavs and Ashkenazi Jews.

Sikeliot
12-31-2015, 06:25 AM
The affinity between Greeks and Slavs is believed to date from the Slavic expansion in the 5th century CE and beyond, whereas the hypothesized affinity between Greeks and Ashkenazi Jews would date from the Classical Era several centuries earlier. Thus, the latter would not imply an affinity between Slavs and Ashkenazi Jews.

So you mean Jews acquired pre-Slavic Greek admixture, but modern Greeks have Slavic genes that wouldn't be reflected in those Jews. This might also explain why Greeks have 10%+ more NE European "Baltic" genes than Sicilians.

kingjohn
12-31-2015, 09:10 AM
dear agamemnon
do not be so sure
that sefharadic have no iberian admixture
i am 25% sefhardic by hertige and scored 3% iberian in dna tribes
and 7% iberian in dna land jews were in spain from 400 ad-1492 ad there was mixing not high
but there was.
pure aschenazi dont have those iberian genes
regards
adam

Viktor Reznov
12-31-2015, 10:26 AM
dear agamemnon
do not be so sure
that sefharadic have no iberian admixture
i am 25% sefhardic by hertige and scored 3% iberian in dna tribes
and 7% iberian in dna land jews were in spain from 400 ad-1492 ad there was mixing not high
but there was.
pure aschenazi dont have those iberian genes
regards
adam
It could just mean that Sephardic Jews contributed to the Iberian gene pool. And the reason this does'nt show in Jews from German lands is because they had a population bottleneck and thus did'nt share recent ancestry with Iberians. I've seen a Galician from up north who scored 0.3% Ashkenazi on 23andme(which means a much higher % of Sephardi ancestry), so it's all over Iberia. Makes more sense from a historical and unipaternal(at least patrilineal) standpoint.

kingjohn
12-31-2015, 06:37 PM
but dna tribes have sefhardic refrence population
i scored 20% in the sefhardic siclian cluster
which supose to be sefharadic specific.
so the 3% spanish portugase cluster which i score must be iberian genes .
i do not believe that 1000 years of jews in spain that they have no iberian blood .
regards
adam

Shaikorth
12-31-2015, 07:05 PM
but dna tribes have sefhardic refrence population
i scored 20% in the sefhardic siclian cluster
which supose to be sefharadic specific.
so the 3% spanish portugase cluster which i score must be iberian genes .
i do not believe that 1000 years of jews in spain that they have no iberian blood .
regards
adam

However, Sephardic-Sicilian is higher in Italy, East Balkans, Greece and Cyprus as well as in Lebanese Christians than in Spanish, so it may not be an indicator of Iberian ancestry in Jews.

kingjohn
12-31-2015, 07:19 PM
i know that the sefharadic sicilian cluster is also high in south italians
thats why they call it sefhardic sicilain for example in abruzzo italy they score 17% in this cluster in dna tribes high.
that why i am tallking about the spanish portugase cluster which is iberian specific
if i score in this component 3% not high but it is there .
in dna land it is 7% iberian and i uploaded it 2 times just to be sure it ain't fallse
mixing is working in both conection.
jews generally mixed only from 70ad t- 400 ad or someting than they began to be isolated and thats why they share high ibd with each other in each community
but the non middle eastern dna is there.
why do you think i score whg in all calculator there must be european genes allells.
p.s its not only me is almpost all western jews { aschenazi, sefhardic, also morrocan have european admixture}
regards
adam

Shaikorth
12-31-2015, 07:33 PM
i know that the sefharadic sicilian cluster is also high in south italians
thats why they call it sefhardic sicilain for example in abruzzo italy they score 17% in this cluster in dna tribes high.
that why i am tallking about the spanish portugase cluster which is iberian specific
if i score in this component 3% not high but it is there .
in dna land it is 7% iberian and i uploaded it 2 times just to be sure it ain't fallse
mixing is working in both conection.
jews generally mixed only from 70ad t- 400 ad or someting than they began to be isolated and thats why they share high ibd with each other in each community
but the non middle eastern dna is there.
why do you think i score whg in all calculator there must be european genes allells.
p.s its not only me is almpost all western jews { aschenazi, sefhardic, also morrocan have european admixture}
regards
adam

Yes, obv. all ashkenazi and sephardic have european ancestry but the question is where they got it. 3.7% Spanish Portuguese is their given Ashkenazi average. It doesn't need to come from Spain, because it is found also in the East Med. Bulgaria and Romania have 8%.

kingjohn
12-31-2015, 08:03 PM
what is your thought ?
when did jews got there european admixture ?
if you want to take a snapshoot of the levant before
or how the ancient hebrews were before the disapora
in my opinion you should look at samaritans i think they reflect ancient levantines
and not surprisingly they dont have european admixture
they dont score {no baltic ,no eastern euro,4% atlantic ,no north sea} in eurogenes k15
and all other calculators .
western jews have european admixture and they score whg also
in chad rolfhson chg -8 spreadsheet aschenazi score 17% whg
and sefhardic also something close in number 2 digits .
it realy contradict what haak thouught taht jew are only EEF.
REGARDS
ADAM

Shaikorth
12-31-2015, 08:36 PM
what is your thought ?
when did jews got there european admixture ?
if you want to take a snapshoot of the levant before
or how the ancient hebrews were before the disapora
in my opinion you should look at samaritans i think they reflect ancient levantines
and not surprisingly they dont have european admixture
they dont score {no baltic ,no eastern euro,4% atlantic ,no north sea} in eurogenes k15
and all other calculators .
western jews have european admixture and they score whg also
in chad rolfhson chg -8 spreadsheet aschenazi score 17% whg
and sefhardic also something close in number 2 digits .
it realy contradict what haak thouught taht jew are only EEF.
REGARDS
ADAM

I think there is post EEF European picked up from, say Greece for instance. That said having mainly EEF doesn't mean a population has no European. They were more european than Samaritans, even the Anatolian farmers had more WHG.

kingjohn
12-31-2015, 08:40 PM
but how do you explain the whg
showing up in western jews ?
in many claculators in chad calculator and also in kurd calculators ?
regards
adam

seferhabahir
12-31-2015, 10:04 PM
but how do you explain the whg
showing up in western jews ?
in many claculators in chad calculator and also in kurd calculators ?
regards
adam

Roman empire conversions to Judaism prior to 70 CE, perhaps?

http://www.thejc.com/judaism/judaism-features/35674/how-disaster-made-conversion-harder

"Roman concern with Jewish conversion began prior to the destruction of the Temple. Though not a missionary religion (early Christians such as Paul, Barnabas and Peter are the only first-century Jewish missionaries known by name), pre-70 Judaism was highly varied and expanding in the Roman empire. It attracted sympathisers and adherents among the underprivileged, powerless, persecuted classes of the empire, especially slaves and women."

Cascio
12-31-2015, 10:28 PM
but dna tribes have sefhardic refrence population
i scored 20% in the sefhardic siclian cluster
which supose to be sefharadic specific.
so the 3% spanish portugase cluster which i score must be iberian genes .
i do not believe that 1000 years of jews in spain that they have no iberian blood .
regards
adam

I scored 20.3 pc Sephardic-Sicilian and 5.7pc Iberian in 23andMe.

Morci
01-01-2016, 01:27 AM
Palestinians also generally show more WHG than Samaritans, so I wonder how much was present in the Jewish population before the the bulk of the migrations that led to the diaspora around the Mediterranean and Europe.

Cascio
01-01-2016, 09:01 AM
I also have 17.5 pc Spanish-Portuguese on DNA Tribes.

kingjohn
01-01-2016, 11:51 AM
very likely
that the whg that western jews show in chad and kurd clculators are whg genes that are hiding inside the EEF component
as we all know stutgart is the model and he also carry whg genes.
about the palestinians they have whg in 1 digit not 2 digit like aschenazi and sefhardic jews
aschenazi also score 5% EHg.
which is missing from palestinians.

Agamemnon
01-02-2016, 02:40 AM
Palestinians also generally show more WHG than Samaritans, so I wonder how much was present in the Jewish population before the the bulk of the migrations that led to the diaspora around the Mediterranean and Europe.

I would normally advise against using extremely endogamous populations such as the Samaritans as a proxy, since they've been subjected to genetic drift and are therefore unlikely to encapsulate the full extent of their ancestral population's genetic diversity. Even the Palestinians would produce better results as a proxy, but again I don't think using contemporary populations to picture past demographic events is a wise course of action.

Tomenable
10-10-2016, 05:29 AM
Greek admixture would actually make more sense than Italian admixture for a plethora of different reasons, some relating to genetics, others relating to the diaspora's emergence in a Hellenistic environment.

Carmi et al. (10 July 2016) favour Italian admixture over Greek.

According to them it was an Early Medieval admixture (not Ancient):

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/07/10/063099.full.pdf

https://scarmilab.org/tagc/

Quote:


Admixture in Southern Europe possibly occurred in Italy, given the continued presence of Jews there and the proposed Italian source of the early Rhineland Ashkenazi communities[3]. What is perhaps surprising is the timing of the Southern European admixture to ≈31-52 generations ago, since Jews are known to have resided in Italy already since antiquity. This result would then imply no gene flow between Jews and local Italian populations until the turn of the millennium, either due to endogamy, or because the group that eventually gave rise to contemporary Ashkenazi Jews did not reside in Southern Europe until that time.

Figure 7.:

https://s15.postimg.org/e9937ih5n/Ashkenazim.png

Shaikorth
10-10-2016, 10:33 AM
Carmi et al. (10 July 2016) favour Italian admixture over Greek.

According to them it was an Early Medieval admixture (not Ancient):

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/07/10/063099.full.pdf

https://scarmilab.org/tagc/

Quote:



Figure 7.:

https://s15.postimg.org/e9937ih5n/Ashkenazim.png

Timing is perhaps still a bit hit and miss with these methods, even if ancestry portions are correct.

kingjohn
10-10-2016, 11:15 AM
looks very logical
1}mixture with south european
2}bottlneck afterwards in rhineland or eastern germany {crusades , black death some of this reduced the population significantly}
3}and than east european gene flow post bottlneck
in poland or ukraine more than likely in poland {and probably not man woman who converted those eastern european snp that me and other eastern asckenazi carry should come from somwhere }:)
4}the number of eastern european admixture is lower tahn 15 %
i ask james xue back than and he talled me the avarge is 7-8% eastern european admixture
regards
adam

Bonacci
10-10-2016, 12:11 PM
Southern Europeans 2000 years ago could've been more Near Eastern/Neolotic and less WHG/Steppe like considering the population migrations from North happened after the christian "uniformisation" of Europe. I think Christianity kept South Europe away to become more Near Eastern as it stopped the whole geneflow from North Africa and Middle East.

I'd guess Jews and Early Neolotic farmers were related in some point as many genetically Jewish like populations settled down in the whole Mediterranean basin.

ffoucart
10-10-2016, 12:26 PM
looks very logical
1}mixture with south european
2}bottlneck afterwards in rhineland or eastern germany {crusades , black death some of this reduced the population significantly}
3}and than east european gene flow post bottlneck
in poland or ukraine more than likely in poland {and probably not man woman who converted those eastern european snp that me and other eastern asckenazi carry should come from somwhere }:)
4}the number of eastern european admixture is lower tahn 15 %
i ask james xue back than and he talled me the avarge is 7-8% eastern european admixture
regards
adam

For your 2), you can also add the consequences of expulsion from most of Western European Kingdoms around 1300.

If I use the example of the Jews from Provence two centuries later (1501) studied by Daničle Iancu-Agou, on around 2000 Jews, around 1000 went abroad, and 1000 stayed with a convertion to Catholicism (some probably hiding their true faith, but their descendants were assimilated in the Catholic society with intermariages). And before this event, there are at least some examples of free convertion to Catholicism (not in big numbers but not an handful).

So, if this was the same in 1300, only a part of the Jewish community went away. A large part simply stayed and converted (probably thinking at first that the Jews will be authorized to be back soon). And if a small population lose half its members, and if you add disease, war.... No surprise if there is a bottleneck.

ffoucart
10-10-2016, 12:35 PM
Southern Europeans 2000 years ago could've been more Near Eastern/Neolotic and less WHG/Steppe like considering the population migrations from North happened after the christian "uniformisation" of Europe. I think Christianity kept South Europe away to become more Near Eastern as it stopped the whole geneflow from North Africa and Middle East.

I'd guess Jews and Early Neolotic farmers were related in some point as many genetically Jewish like populations settled down in the whole Mediterranean basin.

Perhaps, or perhaps not. Remember that Greek have some Steppe admixture, and were very present in Southern Italy, and that all Mediterranean Bassin was Christian (as the Roman Empire was christian itself).

If you want a religion who divided the Meditereanean Bassin, it's Islam not Christianism.

Moreover, there was a gene flow from Europe to North Africa and Levant during more than 1000 years, as European slaves were sold there (that's also why France conquered Alger in the XIXth century: to stop european slave trade, as many european boats were captured by "barbaresques" and their passagers sold as slaves).

Shaikorth
10-10-2016, 05:43 PM
Perhaps, or perhaps not. Remember that Greek have some Steppe admixture, and were very present in Southern Italy, and that all Mediterranean Bassin was Christian (as the Roman Empire was christian itself).

If you want a religion who divided the Meditereanean Bassin, it's Islam not Christianism.

Moreover, there was a gene flow from Europe to North Africa and Levant during more than 1000 years, as European slaves were sold there (that's also why France conquered Alger in the XIXth century: to stop european slave trade, as many european boats were captured by "barbaresques" and their passagers sold as slaves).

The European and Arabic gene flow in North Africa seems to vary considerably by population. There's a cline of Iranian Neolithic-type ancestry from Saharawi to Egyptian Muslims, and the Saharawi don't seem to have any recent European ancestry either.

C J Wyatt III
10-10-2016, 06:16 PM
Moreover, there was a gene flow from Europe to North Africa and Levant during more than 1000 years, as European slaves were sold there (that's also why France conquered Alger in the XIXth century: to stop european slave trade, as many european boats were captured by "barbaresques" and their passagers sold as slaves).

That was quite a significant swirling around of DNA which people tend to overlook.

Jack

Tomenable
10-10-2016, 08:01 PM
3}and than east european gene flow post bottlneck
in poland or ukraine more than likely in poland {and probably not man woman who converted those eastern european snp that me and other eastern asckenazi carry should come from somwhere }

This. Eastern European admixture was probably mostly from women.

There is just not enough of Slavic-specific Y-DNA among Ashkenazi Jews.

kingjohn
10-10-2016, 09:04 PM
even my mtdna is found in aschenazi from belarus and lithaunia
and my grandmother was not- jewish so this mtdna type
which is not common among jews like h3p is probably resullt of convertion of some slavic woman
regards
Adam

Shaikorth
10-11-2016, 06:04 AM
even my mtdna is found in aschenazi from belarus and lithaunia
and my grandmother was not- jewish so this mtdna type
which is not common among jews like h3p is probably resullt of convertion of some slavic woman
regards
Adam

Makes one think how much of the East European in Ashkenazis is from an actual large scale mixture event and how much from local women occasionally marrying in throughout the centuries.

kingjohn
10-11-2016, 07:41 AM
by the way it is not the only case
yes there are {k1a1b1a, k1a9 , k2a2a1, n1b2}
those are the 4 founders 40% of aschenazi descendnet from them but what about
the other 60%?????
wandering amorite from this forum belong to j1c7a
and this mtdna found in aschenazi but also common in finland norway { viking lol}.
http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/j1c7_genbank_sequences.htm
so this can also be case of conversion at some point .

rfegards
adam

p.s
even the 4 mothers are probablyh european n1b2 for example was found in 2 lombards remains from hungary.

Lugus
10-11-2016, 09:04 AM
p.s
even the 4 mothers are probablyh european n1b2 for example was found in 2 lombards remains from hungary.

My wife and kids are also N1b2. Those 2 Lombards (2!) are really mind boggling. Could have been a mistake in the lab?

kingjohn
10-11-2016, 09:21 AM
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6083-No-Langobard-Y-DNA
2 males graves -{13,22}
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/medievaldna.shtml

usually jean m put samples which she is sure about them
regards
Adam

Shaikorth
10-12-2016, 07:06 AM
by the way it is not the only case
yes there are {k1a1b1a, k1a9 , k2a2a1, n1b2}
those are the 4 founders 40% of aschenazi descendnet from them but what about
the other 60%?????
wandering amorite from this forum belong to j1c7a
and this mtdna found in aschenazi but also common in finland norway { viking lol}.
http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/j1c7_genbank_sequences.htm
so this can also be case of conversion at some point .

rfegards
adam

p.s
even the 4 mothers are probablyh european n1b2 for example was found in 2 lombards remains from hungary.

Costa et al 2013 also figured N1b2 could be from North Mediterranean.

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543

Agamemnon
10-12-2016, 08:05 PM
Carmi et al. (10 July 2016) favour Italian admixture over Greek.

According to them it was an Early Medieval admixture (not Ancient):

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/07/10/063099.full.pdf

https://scarmilab.org/tagc/

Quote:



Figure 7.:

https://s15.postimg.org/e9937ih5n/Ashkenazim.png

In fact, the medieval time frame makes even less sense, quite honestly.

C J Wyatt III
10-12-2016, 08:15 PM
In fact, the medieval time frame makes even less sense, quite honestly.

Do you think it is earlier or later?

Jack

Agamemnon
10-12-2016, 08:55 PM
Do you think it is earlier or later?

Jack

Earlier of course.

Agamemnon
10-12-2016, 09:03 PM
Makes one think how much of the East European in Ashkenazis is from an actual large scale mixture event and how much from local women occasionally marrying in throughout the centuries.

I've said this before, I'll say it again: Eastern European ancestry is anything but uniform among AJs, some have a lot of it (above 12%), some have very little of it, some have none.

C J Wyatt III
10-12-2016, 09:05 PM
Earlier of course.

Maybe the problem is that people are looking in the wrong direction.

Jack

Agamemnon
10-12-2016, 09:07 PM
Maybe the problem is that people are looking in the wrong direction.

Jack

How so? Western Jews (Sephardic, Ashkenazi, etc) are obviously admixed, they were the "sink" as far as Southern European ancestry (Greek or Italian) goes.

kingjohn
10-12-2016, 09:36 PM
I've said this before, I'll say it again: Eastern European ancestry is anything but uniform among AJs, some have a lot of it (above 12%), some have very little of it, some have none.

correct it is not uniform :)
and james xue talled me that they did avarge between the ones that have higher eastern european 12% and the ones with little
they get avvarage of 7-8% look logical
regards
adam

p.s he say to me that it doesn't mean every aschenazi has 7-8% it just the avarge between all individuals.
i can see this happen when german jews have {2.5% baltic+eastern euroin jtest }
and i and other eastern aschenazi have {10-11% baltic+eastern euro in j-test }
j-test includes jewish refrence {i ask davidski the refrence are polish and austrian jews}

C J Wyatt III
10-12-2016, 09:39 PM
How so? Western Jews (Sephardic, Ashkenazi, etc) are obviously admixed, they were the "sink" as far as Southern European ancestry (Greek or Italian) goes.

Agamemnon, I tried sending you a PM, but your mailbox is full.

Jack

Shaikorth
10-14-2016, 08:02 AM
How so? Western Jews (Sephardic, Ashkenazi, etc) are obviously admixed, they were the "sink" as far as Southern European ancestry (Greek or Italian) goes.

Some of those may still be the least admixed groups compared to ancient Jews. In Behar et al 2013 some Sephardic groups were the closest Jewish populations to Cypriots and Druze (assuming these proxy Roman era Levant). Similar results can be expected from a Samaritan comparison, but again ancient DNA would be the only way to be sure.

C J Wyatt III
10-14-2016, 03:32 PM
How so? Western Jews (Sephardic, Ashkenazi, etc) are obviously admixed, they were the "sink" as far as Southern European ancestry (Greek or Italian) goes.

Here is something that might need some explanation.

If you are female and do not have significant Ashkenazi heritage, take your kit on GEDmatch (or that of a female relative who is from an older generation than you are) and run an 'X one-to-many' with it. If you are male, you generally will have fewer X-matches, so use a female relative's kit from the oldest generation if you have one available. When you get the results, hit the down arrowhead on the mtDNA column to sort and group the various clades and subclades. Next search your results for the Ashkenazi foundling haplogroups - k1a1b1a, k1a9 , k2a2a1, and n1b2. I am betting that most people will have matches with kits in at least some of those haplogroups, if not all. Sometimes, in the display if GEDmatch has enough regular autosomal results to work with, it will give an estimate of number of generations to MRCA. With this exercise, when that happens, I find that result usually is between 7 and 8 generations. Those results suggest to me that we should be looking at what happened 250-300 years ago.

I am curious how others interpret this.

Jack Wyatt

Claudio
04-01-2018, 10:08 AM
This doesn't make sense to me. Aegean islanders are autosomally close to today's Sicilians. But the other part of Ashkenazim is Levantine. Mixing Aegean islands with Levantine would plot them in Cyprus, not with Sicily or the modern day Aegean.

But Ashkenazim plot WITH today's Sicilians, Cretans, Rhodians, Neapolitans etc.

Maybe they did plot with Cypriots until they took on North euro/East euro admix.
Maybe Ashkenazi Ancestors living in ancient Roman/Byzantine/Holy Roman Empire were indeed genetically more like modern Cypriots?
Until they moved to Southern France/Rhineland and later Eastern Europe.
North euro and Eastern euro admix diluting this Mixture somewhat and making them now plot with modern Sicilians,Cretans,Rhodians,Neapolitans etc as you mentioned ?

John Doe
04-01-2018, 04:35 PM
Maybe they did plot with Cypriots until they took on North euro/East euro admix.
Maybe Ashkenazi Ancestors living in ancient Roman/Byzantine/Holy Roman Empire were indeed genetically more like modern Cypriots?
Until they moved to Southern France/Rhineland and later Eastern Europe.
North euro and Eastern euro admix diluting this Mixture somewhat and making them now plot with modern Sicilians,Cretans,Rhodians,Neapolitans etc as you mentioned ?

It's unlikely.. As there is very little IBD with East Euros and virtually non with West Euros as I recall correctly.. Besides I believe that the little East Euro in Ashkenazim would not be enough to draw them from Cypriots to Sicilians and Maltese. Additionally Sephardic Jews are plot around the area of AJs, and seeing as AJs and Sephardics are nearly identical genetically, it's unlikely IMHO that the main European source for the origin of Western Jews lies North of the Alps. This suggests IMO that there was probably admixture with perhaps Tuscanlike people during the Imperial Roman period. Various studies also suggest a large amount of "Southern European" admixture with some East Euro admixture. We won't know for sure without Ancient DNA, and it seems like it's not going to arrive soon, if at all (personally waiting since 2013-14).

Cascio
04-02-2018, 10:09 AM
I thought I read that there are no IBD links between Italians and Jews.

Claudio
04-02-2018, 12:33 PM
It's unlikely.. As there is very little IBD with East Euros and virtually non with West Euros as I recall correctly.. Besides I believe that the little East Euro in Ashkenazim would not be enough to draw them from Cypriots to Sicilians and Maltese. Additionally Sephardic Jews are plot around the area of AJs, and seeing as AJs and Sephardics are nearly identical genetically, it's unlikely IMHO that the main European source for the origin of Western Jews lies North of the Alps. This suggests IMO that there was probably admixture with perhaps Tuscanlike people during the Imperial Roman period. Various studies also suggest a large amount of "Southern European" admixture with some East Euro admixture. We won't know for sure without Ancient DNA, and it seems like it's not going to arrive soon, if at all (personally waiting since 2013-14).

Levantine + North/Central Italian + Minor East Euro = Ashkenazi

If hypothetically on Gedmatch we used Lebanese as a proxy for Levantine and Tuscan or North Italian + polish would that workout?

kingjohn
04-02-2018, 12:47 PM
Levantine + North/Central Italian + Minor East Euro = Ashkenazi

If hypothetically on Gedmatch we used Lebanese as a proxy for Levantine and Tuscan or North Italian + polish would that workout?

yes
i am modeled in eurogenes k13 { which is good calculator} as lebanese muslem + lebanese muslem+ tuscan+serbian
so i am not sure about the polish but 1/4 romanian or bulgarians

Eihwaz
04-02-2018, 04:36 PM
yes
i am modeled in eurogenes k13 { which is good calculator} as lebanese muslem + lebanese muslem+ tuscan+serbian
so i am not sure about the polish but 1/4 romanian or bulgarians

From what we've seen from a number of the Roman samples plotting south of Tuscany, (Abruzzo) it may be that the Tuscan/North Italian fit that Ashkenazis get is from some continental Celtic and/or Germanic admixture from the Rhine. As I've stated before, that may explain some apparently higher Western European in select individuals. We certainly need medieval Jewish DNA to tell for sure.

kingjohn
04-02-2018, 06:47 PM
From what we've seen from a number of the Roman samples plotting south of Tuscany, (Abruzzo) it may be that the Tuscan/North Italian fit that Ashkenazis get is from some continental Celtic and/or Germanic admixture from the Rhine. As I've stated before, that may explain some apparently higher Western European in select individuals. We certainly need medieval Jewish DNA to tell for sure.

i think the french in eurogenes k36 that you and other aschenazi score was aquired in the rhine but this just my opinion :)
what is your eurogenes k13
4 populations ?
kind regards
adam

JerryS.
04-02-2018, 07:03 PM
i think the french in eurogenes k36 that you and other aschenazi score was aquired in the rhine but this just my opinion :)
what is your eurogenes k13
4 populations ?
kind regards
adam

I can't remember where I read this but supposedly the French in Eurogenes K36 came from Brittany and is closer to English and any other group.

kingjohn
04-02-2018, 07:23 PM
I can't remember where I read this but supposedly the French in Eurogenes K36 came from Brittany and is closer to English and any other group.

this componnet just peak
in britanny from some unknown reson
this map of aha from this forum
22435
the refernce used are central french if i am not wrong
i dont think the early hebrews carry it and aschenazi aquired those allells in europe

Eihwaz
04-02-2018, 07:56 PM
i think the french in eurogenes k36 that you and other aschenazi score was aquired in the rhine but this just my opinion :)
what is your eurogenes k13
4 populations ?
kind regards
adam

Gedmatch Genesis and Gedmatch seem to be lagging ass and/or having server issues today, so I'll get back to you with that. (might just be a really crispy connection here at work) My 4-population-fit will, of course, be skewed by the fact that I've got at least 1/8th non-ashkenazi paper-trail ancestry.

kingjohn
04-02-2018, 08:37 PM
Gedmatch Genesis and Gedmatch seem to be lagging ass and/or having server issues today, so I'll get back to you with that. (might just be a really crispy connection here at work) My 4-population-fit will, of course, be skewed by the fact that I've got at least 1/8th non-ashkenazi paper-trail ancestry.

yes you are not pure but still will be intresting
i am 1/4 bulgarian by the way....

Eihwaz
04-03-2018, 12:12 PM
yes you are not pure but still will be intresting
i am 1/4 bulgarian by the way....

Gedmatch server is back up - hooray!

My K13 fits: (4-pop). (not super interesting compared to yours)

1 Ashkenazi + Romanian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 2.359855
2 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + West_Sicilian @ 2.415931
3 Bulgarian + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.436552
4 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 2.438855
5 Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + Romanian + South_Italian @ 2.444781
6 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish @ 2.452962
7 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Cyprian + North_Italian @ 2.470008
8 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + South_Italian + West_Sicilian @ 2.494822
9 Italian_Jewish + Serbian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 2.532476
10 Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + Serbian + South_Italian @ 2.542758
11 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.544475
12 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian @ 2.559899
13 Bulgarian + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.564800
14 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Tuscan + West_Sicilian @ 2.586059
15 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Italian_Abruzzo + South_Italian @ 2.586951
16 Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish @ 2.591927
17 Cyprian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian + Romanian @ 2.617090
18 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.643504
19 Bulgarian + East_Sicilian + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish @ 2.655029
20 Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish + Romanian + South_Italian @ 2.663563

kingjohn
04-03-2018, 02:02 PM
Gedmatch server is back up - hooray!

My K13 fits: (4-pop). (not super interesting compared to yours)

1 Ashkenazi + Romanian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 2.359855
2 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + West_Sicilian @ 2.415931
3 Bulgarian + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.436552
4 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 2.438855
5 Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + Romanian + South_Italian @ 2.444781
6 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish @ 2.452962
7 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Cyprian + North_Italian @ 2.470008
8 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + South_Italian + West_Sicilian @ 2.494822
9 Italian_Jewish + Serbian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 2.532476
10 Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + Serbian + South_Italian @ 2.542758
11 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.544475
12 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian @ 2.559899
13 Bulgarian + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.564800
14 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Tuscan + West_Sicilian @ 2.586059
15 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Italian_Abruzzo + South_Italian @ 2.586951
16 Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish @ 2.591927
17 Cyprian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian + Romanian @ 2.617090
18 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.643504
19 Bulgarian + East_Sicilian + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish @ 2.655029
20 Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish + Romanian + South_Italian @ 2.663563


p.s
like i said they can be model as 1/4 romanian or 1/4 bulgarian like in your case
but it could be that your west slavic heritage and east european genes push to this direction
we need to see more results

JJBoogie
04-03-2018, 03:19 PM
Gedmatch server is back up - hooray!

My K13 fits: (4-pop). (not super interesting compared to yours)

1 Ashkenazi + Romanian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 2.359855
2 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + West_Sicilian @ 2.415931
3 Bulgarian + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.436552
4 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 2.438855
5 Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + Romanian + South_Italian @ 2.444781
6 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish @ 2.452962
7 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Cyprian + North_Italian @ 2.470008
8 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + South_Italian + West_Sicilian @ 2.494822
9 Italian_Jewish + Serbian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 2.532476
10 Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + Serbian + South_Italian @ 2.542758
11 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.544475
12 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian @ 2.559899
13 Bulgarian + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.564800
14 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Tuscan + West_Sicilian @ 2.586059
15 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Italian_Abruzzo + South_Italian @ 2.586951
16 Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish @ 2.591927
17 Cyprian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian + Romanian @ 2.617090
18 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.643504
19 Bulgarian + East_Sicilian + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish @ 2.655029
20 Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Jewish + Romanian + South_Italian @ 2.663563


Mine isn't too far off yours! LOL

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Central_Greek + Hungarian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian @ 1.054805
2 Ashkenazi + Cyprian + East_German + Spanish_Valencia @ 1.121897
3 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Italian_Abruzzo + Portuguese @ 1.153731
4 Ashkenazi + East_Sicilian + Romanian + Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.162697
5 East_Sicilian + Hungarian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian @ 1.163429
6 Ashkenazi + Serbian + Tuscan + Tuscan @ 1.206587
7 Bulgarian + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.214463
8 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Romanian + Spanish_Murcia @ 1.214544
9 Austrian + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Tuscan @ 1.223931
10 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Romanian + Spanish_Valencia @ 1.240780
11 Ashkenazi + North_Italian + Serbian + West_Sicilian @ 1.241114
12 Ashkenazi + Central_Greek + Romanian + Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.264245
13 Central_Greek + East_German + Italian_Jewish + Tuscan @ 1.265372
14 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + East_Sicilian + Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.284314
15 Cyprian + Italian_Jewish + South_Polish + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.286973
16 Hungarian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian + West_Sicilian @ 1.291687
17 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.301685
18 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Italian_Abruzzo + Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.302870
19 Ashkenazi + Portuguese + Serbian + South_Italian @ 1.305029
20 Ashkenazi + Serbian + South_Italian + Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.315422

Eihwaz
04-03-2018, 03:21 PM
p.s
like i said they can be model as 1/4 romanian or 1/4 bulgarian like in your case
but it could be that your west slavic heritage and east european genes push to this direction
we need to see more results

An interesting K15 fit for my father:

Croatian + French_Basque + Lebanese_Muslim + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.731098

kingjohn
04-03-2018, 03:25 PM
An interesting K15 fit for my father:

Croatian + French_Basque + Lebanese_Muslim + Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.731098

people like eurogenes k15
i like better k13
what your father score there in 4 population ?
because he is full aschenazi

Eihwaz
04-03-2018, 03:28 PM
people like eurogenes k15
i like better k13
what your father score there in 4 population ?
because he is full aschenazi

1 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.555429
2 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Valencia @ 4.607975
3 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Murcia @ 4.612395
4 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.656045
5 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Portuguese @ 4.806170
6 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Aragon @ 4.807103
7 Ashkenazi + French + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 4.851030
8 Hungarian + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish @ 4.891465
9 Hungarian + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.927967
10 Austrian + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.928000
11 Algerian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Southeast_English @ 4.985356
12 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Galicia @ 4.986353
13 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.990991
14 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Samaritan + Southeast_English @ 5.016388
15 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Serbian @ 5.016889
16 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Palestinian + Spanish_Valencia @ 5.024463
17 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.027230
18 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Southeast_English @ 5.034243
19 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian + Southeast_English @ 5.051355
20 Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Cataluna @ 5.102081

Some very interesting stuff. He's definitely shifted towards Western/Central Europe in most calculators.

kingjohn
04-03-2018, 03:33 PM
1 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.555429
2 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Valencia @ 4.607975
3 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Murcia @ 4.612395
4 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.656045
5 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Portuguese @ 4.806170
6 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Aragon @ 4.807103
7 Ashkenazi + French + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 4.851030
8 Hungarian + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish @ 4.891465
9 Hungarian + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.927967
10 Austrian + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.928000
11 Algerian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Southeast_English @ 4.985356
12 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Galicia @ 4.986353
13 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.990991
14 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Samaritan + Southeast_English @ 5.016388
15 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Serbian @ 5.016889
16 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Palestinian + Spanish_Valencia @ 5.024463
17 Ashkenazi + Ashkenazi + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.027230
18 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Southeast_English @ 5.034243
19 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian + Southeast_English @ 5.051355
20 Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Spanish_Cataluna @ 5.102081

Some very interesting stuff. He's definitely shifted towards Western/Central Europe in most calculators.

yes agree with you he have and atlantic vibe with a 1/4 spanish population

kingjohn
04-03-2018, 04:39 PM
my father eurogenes k13 { half aschenazi +half sefhardi mizrachi from syria damascus }

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Cyprian + French + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.373746
2 French + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Libyan_Jewish @ 2.608247

Eihwaz
04-03-2018, 04:52 PM
my father eurogenes k13 { half aschenazi +half sefhardi mizrachi from syria damascus }

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Cyprian + French + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.373746
2 French + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Libyan_Jewish @ 2.608247

Where's his Ashkenazi side from? My father has ancestry from Belarus, Poland, and Austria-Hungary.

kingjohn
04-03-2018, 05:02 PM
Where's his Ashkenazi side from? My father has ancestry from Belarus, Poland, and Austria-Hungary.

ukraine and lithaunia ......

my father score 3.8% northwest europe in dna tribes snp

jonahst
04-03-2018, 11:34 PM
I would've previously thought that the NW Euro in Ashkenazi was Germanic or northern French (from the Rhine Valley like Kingjohn said), but from my own data I think this might not be the case.

I'm half Eastern and half Central Euro Ashkenazi, so I end up getting like ~5 East Euro (plus some Northern Caucasus), and around 5-10% NW Euro.

However, LivingDNA put my NW Euro as part of my Southern European in Cautious mode. It overall gave me about 6.5% French and 1.5% Germanic, but around 1.5% of the French was related to my Iberian-related (another 6%) ancestry, and the remaining French and German were classified as part of my Tuscany-related ancestry. I mean this is only based on one company, but they did separate the NE Euro and the Northern Caucasus ancestry from the very start. So this makes me think that the NW Euro was mostly inherited via the Northern Italian ancestry.
22480
22481

(The 5% Europe Unassigned in Cautious ends up becoming the North Italy in Complete.)

Ethereal
04-03-2018, 11:37 PM
Looks like I'm the other way round!

kingjohn
04-04-2018, 02:02 AM
I would've previously thought that the NW Euro in Ashkenazi was Germanic or northern French (from the Rhine Valley like Kingjohn said), but from my own data I think this might not be the case.

I'm half Eastern and half Central Euro Ashkenazi, so I end up getting like ~5 East Euro (plus some Northern Caucasus), and around 5-10% NW Euro.

However, LivingDNA put my NW Euro as part of my Southern European in Cautious mode. It overall gave me about 6.5% French and 1.5% Germanic, but around 1.5% of the French was related to my Iberian-related (another 6%) ancestry, and the remaining French and German were classified as part of my Tuscany-related ancestry. I mean this is only based on one company, but they did separate the NE Euro and the Northern Caucasus ancestry from the very start. So this makes me think that the NW Euro was mostly inherited via the Northern Italian ancestry.
22480
22481

(The 5% Europe Unassigned in Cautious ends up becoming the North Italy in Complete.)

my father also score above 5% Finnish in dna tribes {above noise level}|
what are the chance that he got this element from his sefhardi /mizrachi side ?

p.s
the northwest european could come from northern italian geneflow i agree
although i still believe the Rhineland community like worms, minz , speyer could acquire it in some brutal crusade .....

Eihwaz
04-04-2018, 02:39 AM
my father also score above 5% Finnish in dna tribes {above noise level}|
what are the chance that he got this element from his sefhardi /mizrachi side ?

p.s
the northwest european could come from northern italian geneflow i agree
although i still believe the Rhineland community like worms, minz , speyer could acquire it in some brutal crusade .....

Personally, I think it's a lot more likely that the Celtic/Germanic-like admixture came post-diaspora, especially since Jews would've mixed with Romans, who were likely Abruzzo-like as I pointed out earlier. It is certainly possible, though, especially since Celtic tribes existed in Northern Italy.

Tz85
04-04-2018, 03:20 AM
my father eurogenes k13 { half aschenazi +half sefhardi mizrachi from syria damascus }

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Cyprian + French + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze @ 2.373746
2 French + Lebanese_Druze + Lebanese_Druze + Libyan_Jewish @ 2.608247

Looks like Libyan Jew is actually our Sephardi.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi +50% Hungarian @ 7.025130


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek_Thessaly +25% Greek_Thessaly +25% La_Brana-1 @ 6.722760


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++
1 Greek_Thessaly + La_Brana-1 + Libyan_Jewish + Moldavian @ 6.072451
2 Greek_Thessaly + Hungarian + Libyan_Jewish + Moldavian @ 6.207169
3 Finnish + Greek_Thessaly + Libyan_Jewish + Moldavian @ 6.232950
4 Central_Greek + Finnish + Libyan_Jewish + Moldavian @ 6.284348
5 East_Sicilian + Finnish + Libyan_Jewish + Moldavian @ 6.295501
6 Finnish + Greek_Thessaly + Libyan_Jewish + Romanian @ 6.296577
7 Greek_Thessaly + La_Brana-1 + Libyan_Jewish + Serbian @ 6.320104
8 Central_Greek + La_Brana-1 + Libyan_Jewish + Moldavian @ 6.336896
9 East_German + Greek_Thessaly + Libyan_Jewish + Moldavian @ 6.342992
10 Greek_Thessaly + La_Brana-1 + Libyan_Jewish + Romanian @ 6.351077
11 Finnish + Libyan_Jewish + Moldavian + South_Italian @ 6.377672
12 East_Sicilian + La_Brana-1 + Libyan_Jewish + Moldavian @ 6.381699
13 Erzya + Greek_Thessaly + Libyan_Jewish + West_German @ 6.398963
14 Ashkenazi + La_Brana-1 + Libyan_Jewish + Moldavian @ 6.404191
15 Bulgarian + Finnish + Greek_Thessaly + Libyan_Jewish @ 6.428726
16 Greek_Thessaly + Hungarian + Libyan_Jewish + Ukrainian @ 6.434555
17 Ashkenazi + Finnish + Libyan_Jewish + Moldavian @ 6.439417
18 Central_Greek + Erzya + Libyan_Jewish + West_German @ 6.444697
19 Finnish + Greek_Thessaly + Libyan_Jewish + Serbian @ 6.444958
20 Greek_Thessaly + Libyan_Jewish + Serbian + Ukrainian @ 6.450767

JerryS.
04-12-2018, 11:30 AM
how accurate is the Eurogenes Jtest? also, what are DNA differences between Ashkenazi and Druze?
I find that Eurogenes is a little weak on showing minor Mediterranean ethnicities compared to Dodecad and MDLP.

Mixed Mode Population Sharing: (my Jtest).


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.2% NO + 24.8% Tuscan @ 2.73
2 94.5% NL + 5.5% Armenian @ 2.81
3 93.7% NL + 6.3% TR @ 2.84
4 94.9% NL + 5.1% GE @ 2.84
5 94.6% NL + 5.4% Assyrian @ 2.85
6 94.4% NL + 5.6% Kurdish @ 2.88
7 94.9% NL + 5.1% Mandean @ 2.92
8 94.4% NL + 5.6% IR @ 2.92
9 93.1% NL + 6.9% AJ @ 2.93
10 78.7% English + 21.3% Serbian @ 3
11 95.5% West_&_Central_German + 4.5% AJ @ 3.01
12 91.8% English + 8.2% Kurdish @ 3.07
13 74.3% South_&_Central_Swedish + 25.7% Tuscan @ 3.07
14 90.9% English + 9.1% TR @ 3.08
15 79.7% DK + 20.3% Tuscan @ 3.08
16 93% NL + 7% GR @ 3.09
17 94.5% NL + 5.5% Lezgin @ 3.09
18 92.6% NL + 7.4% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 3.09
19 95.5% NL + 4.5% Druze @ 3.1
20 97.2% West_&_Central_German + 2.8% GE @ 3.12

Ethereal
04-12-2018, 12:00 PM
how accurate is the Eurogenes Jtest? also, what are DNA differences between Ashkenazi and Druze?
I find that Eurogenes is a little weak on showing minor Mediterranean ethnicities compared to Dodecad and MDLP.

Mixed Mode Population Sharing: (my Jtest).


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.2% NO + 24.8% Tuscan @ 2.73
2 94.5% NL + 5.5% Armenian @ 2.81
3 93.7% NL + 6.3% TR @ 2.84
4 94.9% NL + 5.1% GE @ 2.84
5 94.6% NL + 5.4% Assyrian @ 2.85
6 94.4% NL + 5.6% Kurdish @ 2.88
7 94.9% NL + 5.1% Mandean @ 2.92
8 94.4% NL + 5.6% IR @ 2.92
9 93.1% NL + 6.9% AJ @ 2.93
10 78.7% English + 21.3% Serbian @ 3
11 95.5% West_&_Central_German + 4.5% AJ @ 3.01
12 91.8% English + 8.2% Kurdish @ 3.07
13 74.3% South_&_Central_Swedish + 25.7% Tuscan @ 3.07
14 90.9% English + 9.1% TR @ 3.08
15 79.7% DK + 20.3% Tuscan @ 3.08
16 93% NL + 7% GR @ 3.09
17 94.5% NL + 5.5% Lezgin @ 3.09
18 92.6% NL + 7.4% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 3.09
19 95.5% NL + 4.5% Druze @ 3.1
20 97.2% West_&_Central_German + 2.8% GE @ 3.12

Don't spam

JerryS.
04-12-2018, 06:51 PM
Don't spam

after so many pages of you not getting the answers you wanted (I waited) I thought instead of starting a new thread I'd ask "Jewish" question here where so many learned folks were already.