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Bonnie
01-02-2016, 05:05 AM
Among the ~410 samples we've collected from people in Cameroon, at least two of them appear to be very likely R1b-V88. Most R1b-V88 from Cameroon are from the far northern region, but a few must have made their way down to the southwest.

Thomas Krahn tells me that V88 is a no-good SNP, which he doesn't like to test. But I see that there are others, such as PF6289 that's being tested by FTDNA's Big Y, and Geno 2.0. I've seen postings indicating there are a series of SNPs found in the Big Y and/or Geno 2.0 results of members of V88 that are not found in other clades, for instance see: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2014-05/1400072413

Surely among these we can find some worthy candidates to test in these Cameroonian samples. Is there anyone out there who's interested in investigating them?

In the original paper by Cruciani, 2010, "Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages," which Jean cited in another thread, the data shows that 17 out of 45 Central-West African (mostly Cameroonian) V88+ samples were V69+. So we should certainly test V69, too.

What do folks think would be the best set of SNPs to test on these samples?

Here's the deal from YSEQ: if anyone will donate $17.50 per SNP that you want to have tested, to our A00 research project fundraiser, here, http://experiment.com/a00west, then Thomas will test those SNPs for us. He won't take the money from the donated funds, though, he'll donate the cost of the tests to our fundraiser.

Looking forward to your ideas and support.

Bonnie

razyn
01-02-2016, 06:01 AM
How about PF6376 as a substitute for V88? http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4723-Dissection-of-the-Y-SNP-S116-in-Atlantic-Europe-and-Iberia-Valverde-et-al-2015&p=91603&viewfull=1#post91603 [Where btw Rich Rocca was responding to post #189 on that same thread, by rms2.]

The Neolithic El Trocs guy was supposed to be R1b1 (M478-, PF6399-, L265-, L150-, M269-, V35-, V69-). It might be worthwhile to test the oldest couple of SNPs on that list, to see how different he might be from the present day Cameroon samples -- and whether any of that difference is considered ancient. I guess realistically we don't yet know of any more recent Cameroonian SNPs until somebody is sequenced with NextGen technology.

If you and Thomas agree on a list of six that he is comfortable about testing, and that would actually prove something useful, I'll donate to cover testing one guy for the six. His offer is very generous.

VinceT
01-02-2016, 06:43 AM
Have you contacted the admins of the R-M343 (M73- M269-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1Asterisk/default.aspx) at FTDNA?

They currently list the following as equivalent:

PF6279/V88, FGC20963/V3544, FGC20965/Y8450, FGC20972/Y8457, FGC20975/Y7782, FGC20978/Y8455, FGC20982/V3923, FGC20996/Y7772, FGC20999/SK2064/Y7778, FGC21000/Y7780, FGC21012/V2219, FGC21020/Y8456, FGC21051/Y8448, FGC21057/Y7776, FGC21059/Y7781, FGC21066/Y7789, FGC24688/Y7769, L729/M2087/Z15/Z518, PF6277, PF6278, PF6281, PF6287, PF6288, PF6289, PF6290, PF6291, PF6292, PF6293, PF6295, PF6298, PF6299, PF6301, PF6302, PF6303, PF6304, PF6305, PF6307, PF6309, PF6310, PF6311, PF6312, PF6313, PF6314, PF6315, PF6318, PF6321/V4036, PF6323, PF6324, PF6327, PF6328, PF6329, PF6330, PF6332, PF6333, PF6334, PF6335, PF6338, PF6339, PF6340, PF6341, PF6343, PF6344, PF6345, PF6376, S5025/Z2174, Y10835, Y7770/Z30230, Y7774, Z30232, BY426/Z5044, Y:3292599 (T/A), Y:3294407 (G/T), Y:3953287 (C/T), Y:5765867 (C/T), Y:5776236 (G/A), Y:5813251 (T/G), Y:9513046 (C/T), Y:22423896 (C/A), Y:22439061 (G/A), Y:28803867 (T/C)

VinceT
01-02-2016, 06:49 AM
Their subgroup _R1b1c (V88+) Cluster D2 (V69+) has two Cameroonian research samples, kits# 197236 and 197237.

Bonnie
01-02-2016, 03:10 PM
OMG, thank you, Vince, I'm sorry, I didn't see V88 in the tree when I first looked at it! There are so many little tiny SNP names in there! ;-) Actually what might have happened is that I first had the ht35 tree on the screen and got mixed up (late at night) as to which I was looking at? Who knows, the important thing is they have an amazing number of branches now identified below it, and lots of haplotypes to compare with ours. Where, I wonder, did they get the research samples? I will have to ask. Let me go compare their haplotypes with ours.

Bonnie
01-02-2016, 03:43 PM
OK! I compared their 18 marker haplotypes with the V88 cluster members in that project, and they fit very well. They don't have an exact match, but their nearest one seems to be kit 342967. He's in cluster D3, which is V69-, but there isn't a great deal of difference between that and the D2 V69+ cluster and cluster D1, possible V69+. So this puts us in the ballpark, and tells us that they definitely need to be tested for V69.

They don't match the Cameroonian V69+ research samples, they have a GD with them of at least 5 on those 18 markers. I suspect ours may be V69-.

Now I just have to find some people who'd like to underwrite their testing.

Bonnie
01-02-2016, 11:01 PM
Among our samples collected by Mathew on his last field trips we have found the following two haplotypes:

http://www.yseq.net/R1bCameroonChallenge.html

Note that Y-GATA-H4 is in the NIST standard. If you want to compare them to FTDNA you need to subtract 1. The haplogroup predictors clearly claim 100% R1b.

Now the question is: How did those two Y chromosomes find their way to Sub-Saharan Africa? Could it be that some Europeans have left their traces during colonization times?

Well, if you're familiar with R1b in Europe, the haplotypes still look a little bit strange.

Also we keep finding R1b distribution maps that highlight an R1b hot-spot in Northern Cameroon:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b

Wikipedia characterizes the hotspot in Northern Cameroon as R1b-V88. However V88 is in a region of the Y chromosome that is 97.9% identical to ChrX, so it wouldn't qualify for a stable marker according to the newest ISOGG guidelines. I'd rather prefer to test stable known SNPs that independently proof the association with the North African and Arabic regions.

I'd like to involve you, the R1b experts to use your knowledge and experience to solve this mystery in a group effort. At the same time I'd like to give the A00 Cameroon Research Project another push for donations.

So here are the rules of the game:

YSEQ will do free SNP tests on those 2 samples if you donate an equal amount ($17.50 per SNP) to Bonnie Schrack's A00 Cameroon Research project.

http://experiment.com/a00west

When you make the donation, send Bonnie and myself an email [email protected], [email protected] with the marker you want to sponsor and the YSEQ ID it should be tested for. The marker must be available in the YSEQ catalog:

https://www.yseq.net/

or at least we must have the primers in stock so that we can quickly test them. Ask us for a distinct SNP if you're unsure.

We will process the SNPs in the very next batch and release the results to the public. You can keep sponsoring the next round when the results come in. But note that the A00 Cameroon project deadline at experiment.com is on January 6th! So there are only 5 days left to submit your suggested SNP and the associated sample ID.

The Prize:

The researcher who submits the most downstream positive SNP first will win a free Haplogroup Panel at YSEQ which he can use for a person of his choice. Since there are two samples, there are two Haplogroup Panels that you can win!

Good luck and Happy New Year!

Thomas

Bonnie
01-02-2016, 11:16 PM
Razyn,

Yikes, I didn't see your post somehow! My apologies! Thanks for the links to the posts about the El Trocs man, and for suggesting PF6376.

Your idea is fine. Just so you'll be participating on the same terms as others, could you send your list of six that you'd like to test to [email protected] and bonniesc[email protected]? To make it easier, the R1b-M343 tree is here: http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b-M343xM269%20Y-DNA%20tree_02_11_25_2015.pdf

VinceT
01-02-2016, 11:45 PM
OK! I compared their 18 marker haplotypes with the V88 cluster members in that project, and they fit very well. They don't have an exact match, but their nearest one seems to be kit 342967. He's in cluster D3, which is V69-, but there isn't a great deal of difference between that and the D2 V69+ cluster and cluster D1, possible V69+. So this puts us in the ballpark, and tells us that they definitely need to be tested for V69.

They don't match the Cameroonian V69+ research samples, they have a GD with them of at least 5 on those 18 markers. I suspect ours may be V69-.

Now I just have to find some people who'd like to underwrite their testing.

FTDNA# Kit N131996 is also in Cluster D3, and is listed under the branch defined by Y:7671458 (A/G) [= Y18459 (http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;name=Y18459)], Y:19396341 (T/C) [= Y18462 (http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;name=Y18462)]. Both locations look promising for primers, the former more-so than the latter. Also see YFull branch R-Y18458 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y18458/); #YF02325 lists his ancestral origin as Kano, Nigeria, which I suspect would be the same as FTDNA #317546 (Musa).

Bonnie
01-02-2016, 11:49 PM
Hi Vince,

Thanks! Sounds great. Would you mind summarizing this in an email to Thomas and I, with a proposal of which couple of SNPs you'd like to sponsor?

Appreciate it!

Bonnie

VinceT
01-03-2016, 12:12 AM
Hi Vince,

Thanks! Sounds great. Would you mind summarizing this in an email to Thomas and I, with a proposal of which couple of SNPs you'd like to sponsor?

Appreciate it!

Bonnie

E-mail sent!

razyn
01-03-2016, 12:51 AM
could you send your list of six that you'd like to test to [us]?
OK, I did that, good luck on receiving what appears to be the last $500 you need for this phase.

grouza31
01-03-2016, 01:59 PM
Razyn,

Yikes, I didn't see your post somehow! My apologies! Thanks for the links to the posts about the El Trocs man, and for suggesting PF6376.

Your idea is fine. Just so you'll be participating on the same terms as others, could you send your list of six that you'd like to test to [email protected] and [email protected]? To make it easier, the R1b-M343 tree is here: http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b-M343xM269%20Y-DNA%20tree_02_11_25_2015.pdf

Bonnie,
Instead of SNPS individually testing, the cheapest and best way to get more informations is to take geno2.
I'm V88+ and V69-. I can tell you the R-V88 group and its sub-classes are the least studied. It is also very difficult to study this group whatever the test used (SNPS or YSTR). For example, with YSTR test, I match R-M269 group than R-V88 and it sub-class members (My match with R-M269 : YSTR12 GD=0, YSTR25 GD=0, YSTR37 GD=4, YSTR 67 GD=4, YSTR111 not tested by my R6M269 matchs). My sample was compared with at least 40 members of the R-V88 Group and its subclasses. There is no match even if at YSTR 12 markers. Iím also positive to many SNPS that are used to define R-M269 haplogroup.
The V88 clusters classifications are not very reliable and depends on the project manager or the testing company. A person may be classified as D3 or C1 depending the projects.
I have tested with many testing companies. My advice is to begin with geno2 if you do not have much money.

GTC
01-03-2016, 03:48 PM
The V88 clusters classifications are not very reliable and depends on the project manager or the testing company. A person may be classified as D3 or C1 depending the projects.
I have tested with many testing companies. My advice is to begin with geno2 if you do not have much money.

Yes, over a period of some years I have read of a number of cases of classification errors by FTDNA putting men in M269 by way of STRs when in fact they are V88 or something else outside of M269 and, reportedly, it took a lot of effort to convince FTDNA to backbone test and correct the classifications.

grouza31
01-03-2016, 04:47 PM
Yes, over a period of some years I have read of a number of cases of classification errors by FTDNA putting men in M269 by way of STRs when in fact they are V88 or something else outside of M269 and, reportedly, it took a lot of effort to convince FTDNA to backbone test and correct the classifications.
My big y result contains many known snps that define R-M269 haplogroup.

Bonnie
01-03-2016, 08:08 PM
Hi grouza31,

Are you a member of the R-M343 project, then? Sergey's tree seems very impressive. I agree about the project's clusters, though, I was at a loss to figure out the criteria for some of them.

Have you reported the positive SNP results for M269 to people who are actively working on the R haplogroup tree?

I think your advice about Geno 2.0 would be a good way to start for private individuals, however, these are research samples which are now at YSEQ, who are doing all the testing for our project. Thomas has challenged people to name the SNPs they want tested in these two samples, and whoever picks the the most downstream positive SNP wins a prize of free tests at YSEQ.

I agree that the R(xM269) branches seem to be neglected, and in dire need of updates in the public trees, even that of Yfull. I'm really glad Sergey, at least, is doing research on them.

Bonnie

grouza31
01-03-2016, 09:13 PM
Hi grouza31,

Are you a member of the R-M343 project, then? Sergey's tree seems very impressive. I agree about the project's clusters, though, I was at a loss to figure out the criteria for some of them.

Have you reported the positive SNP results for M269 to people who are actively working on the R haplogroup tree?

I think your advice about Geno 2.0 would be a good way to start for private individuals, however, these are research samples which are now at YSEQ, who are doing all the testing for our project. Thomas has challenged people to name the SNPs they want tested in these two samples, and whoever picks the the most downstream positive SNP wins a prize of free tests at YSEQ.

I agree that the R(xM269) branches seem to be neglected, and in dire need of updates in the public trees, even that of Yfull. I'm really glad Sergey, at least, is doing research on them.

Bonnie

Bonnie,
I'm a member of R-M343 projetc. I know Sergey's. Sergey did a great job. It's very hard work. I thank him a lot.

razyn
01-04-2016, 05:45 AM
I'm not sure if this challenge is what did it, but I was notified about fifteen minutes ago that the project is fully funded. There are a couple of days or so for additional donations, the deadline is Jan. 6th.

smal
01-04-2016, 12:04 PM
I sent email also.

Bonnie
01-05-2016, 12:59 AM
Yes!! :) We reached the goal several days early! The challenge helped a lot. There were at least as many people donating who didn't participate in the challenge, though. The publicity in general probably helped.

We've gotten a huge number of hits on the site today, I guess people are visiting just to see for themselves that it's fully funded. But we'd really like more donations! I'm not asking for any more from those who've already supported us! But since we have a few more days to wait anyway, we should go with the momentum we have.

Now that the R1b are well taken care of -- with SNP results expected tomorrow -- what I'd REALLY like, is help with a few other very strange haplotypes, which are much harder to identify than the R1b were. What's the best forum for me to post them, to get ideas on their haplogroups, and suggestions for what SNPs to test first?

VinceT
01-06-2016, 02:29 AM
Thomas posted a challenge update to the R1b-U106 Yahoo forum today [not to toot my own horn or anything... ;) ]

FIRST RESULTS

It seems like the R1b ht35 experts have made very good predictions, however the final outcome is still open.
Here are the primary results as we have scored them today:

Sample 3064 3804
PF6332 failed C+
PF6333 T+ T+
Y7782 A+ A+
Y7771 T+ T+
V1684 G- failed
SK2076 G- G-
V3181 failed C-
V69 failed C-
Y18462 T- T-
Y18459 A- A-
PF6368 G- G-
Z30246 C- C-
L388 G- G-
M18 del- del-
U152 C- C-

Unfortunately a few results failed at the first attempt. 3804 / V1684 was likely a clogged capillary and the sample quality of 3064 is generally a little bit lower.
I don't think we need to re-run PF6332 since it's implicit positive. However V3181,V69 and V1684 are still interesting and we'll try to solve them in a second sequencing attempt.

To get your orientation I recommend to look at the following two trees:

R1b-M343 (xM269) Y-DNA tree. v 2. November 25, 2015 (Sergey Malyshev 2015):
http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b-M343xM269%20Y-DNA%20tree_02_11_25_2015.pdf

YFull Experimental YTree v3.18 (Vladimir Urasin 2016)
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/ (top section, for Y18462 and Y18459)

At the moment Vincent Tilroe is still in the lead since he was the first who predicted the R1b-Y7771 level.
However, as you can see there are still plenty of phylo-equivalent SNPs at the V3181 level that could be potentially positive.
The challenge is now to identify those SNPs out of them that could be available at YSEQ.
I suggest you look them up in http://ybrowse.org and check what SNPs are in the proximity. Then you look up those makers with the YSEQ search box if they are available. I will also go through this list later today, but of course you want to be faster than the other participants of this challenge.

More risk friendly participants may also check on the V1169, V69 and Y18485 branches.

Note that you still have time to pledge for Bonnie's A00 Cameroon project http://experiment.com/a00west until Jan 6th and participate at this challenge.
The rules can be found here:
http://www.yseq.net/R1bCameroonChallenge.html

Good luck!

Thomas

GTC
01-06-2016, 05:47 AM
So, they are confirmed as R1b. Given the extent of European colonialism in Africa over a long period, is anybody really surprised to find some R1b among the native population?

Megalophias
01-06-2016, 06:17 AM
So, they are confirmed as R1b. Given the extent of European colonialism in Africa over a long period, is anybody really surprised to find some R1b among the native population?

Did you even read the thread title, man? This is R1b-V88, which is rare in Europe, common in Cameroon. And now confirmed to be Y7771, the particularly African branch.

GTC
01-06-2016, 06:59 AM
Did you even read the thread title, man? This is R1b-V88, which is rare in Europe, common in Cameroon. And now confirmed to be Y7771, the particularly African branch.

Yes I did read the thread title man, thank you.

R1b is a comparatively modern haplogroup, so I'm not expecting any great surprises out of Cameroon.

Megalophias
01-06-2016, 07:18 AM
Yes I did read the thread title man, thank you.

R1b is a comparatively modern haplogroup, so I'm not expecting any great surprises out of Cameroon.
Well, weird non-sequiturs aside, we know very little about the internal structure of African V88 afaik; we don't need great surprises, just basic information.

VinceT
01-06-2016, 07:28 AM
R1b-V88 has a very different migrational history than R1b-M269. This blog entry (http://originhunters.blogspot.ca/2014/09/dna-mysteries-iberian-r1b-v88-in-africa.html) asserts an Iberian origin, but all other late-neolithic R1b per Hallast (2015) suggests an origin that is more than likely west-Asian, North-west Asian, or far- east European. The neolithic sample from Els Trocs, Spain seems to be the only anomaly so far, but not much of a surprise since the Straight of Gibraltar isn't that wide at all. Given that R1a is largely east-European, and R2 exists predominantly in the middle-east and south-west Asia, and R1b-V88 is distributed throughout the Middle-East, north- and central Africa, as well as the Mediterranean, it seems more likely that R1b-V88 came from west Asia into the southern Levant or Arabian peninsula, then spread across north Africa via Egypt or Mediterranean sea-faring during the early Neolithic, as suggested by Genetiker (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/04/analyses-of-an-early-neolithic-genome-from-spain/).

YFull lists the TMRCA of the Arabian/African haplogroup R-Y7771 to be c. 4900 years ago.
(http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y7771/)

GTC
01-06-2016, 07:36 AM
it seems more likely that R1b-V88 came from west Asia into the southern Levant or Arabian peninsula, then spread across north Africa via Egypt or Mediterranean sea-faring during the early Neolithic, as suggested by Genetiker (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/04/analyses-of-an-early-neolithic-genome-from-spain/).


Thanks.

grouza31
01-06-2016, 11:56 AM
Contrary to what has often been said, many R-V88 did not arrived in Africa during the Neolithic period. This arrival is very recent.
Some arrived around the year 500 BCE from Syria, Palestine and Babylon after the fall of the Assyrian empire.
Many (including R-Y7771) arrived between 400 years AD . They came from Saudi Arabia and Yemen.
Other R-V88 came with VANDALS who had previously invaded the Iberian Peninsula.
When the Vandals Empire in Africa was destroyed in 533 (after more than a century of existence in Africa) by the Byzantine army, some of these vandals have shelters within the African land and mixed with the local populations. Others were captured and taken to Byzance. Some of the vandals of Byzance are again returned to Africa with Muslim conquests.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-06-2016, 11:59 AM
Contrary to what has often been said, many R-V88 did not arrived in Africa during the Neolithic period. This arrival is very recent.
Some arrived around the year 500 BCE from Syria, Palestine and Babylon after the fall of the Assyrian empire.
Many (including R-Y7771) arrived between 400 years AD . They came from Saudi Arabia and Yemen.
Other R-V88 came with VANDALS who had previously invaded the Iberian Peninsula.
When the Vandals Empire in Africa was destroyed in 533 (after more than a century of existence in Africa) by the Byzantine army, some of these vandals have shelters within the African land and mixed with the local populations. Others were captured and taken to Byzance. Some of the vandals of Byzance are again returned to Africa with Muslim conquests.

The Vandals - from central - Northern Europe - R1b-V88 ?
Ha ha

grouza31
01-06-2016, 12:37 PM
The Vandals - from central - Northern Europe - R1b-V88 ?
Ha ha
Many R-V88 specially R-Y771 who are V69- share the same genetic markers (ancestral and derived) with many persons of central europ. Among this persons there are Ashkenazi Jew.

northkerry
01-06-2016, 12:38 PM
V88 formed 16500 ybp, TMRCA 6800 ybp. R-Y7771 is only one SNP downstream according to Yfull so the TMRCA must be between 6,800 and 4,900 ybp and a Neolithic subhaplogroup.






R1b-V88 has a very different migrational history than R1b-M269. This blog entry (http://originhunters.blogspot.ca/2014/09/dna-mysteries-iberian-r1b-v88-in-africa.html) asserts an Iberian origin, but all other late-neolithic R1b per Hallast (2015) suggests an origin that is more than likely west-Asian, North-west Asian, or far- east European. The neolithic sample from Els Trocs, Spain seems to be the only anomaly so far, but not much of a surprise since the Straight of Gibraltar isn't that wide at all. Given that R1a is largely east-European, and R2 exists predominantly in the middle-east and south-west Asia, and R1b-V88 is distributed throughout the Middle-East, north- and central Africa, as well as the Mediterranean, it seems more likely that R1b-V88 came from west Asia into the southern Levant or Arabian peninsula, then spread across north Africa via Egypt or Mediterranean sea-faring during the early Neolithic, as suggested by Genetiker (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/04/analyses-of-an-early-neolithic-genome-from-spain/).

YFull lists the TMRCA of the Arabian/African haplogroup R-Y7771 to be c. 4900 years ago.
(http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y7771/)

grouza31
01-06-2016, 01:10 PM
V88 formed 16500 ybp, TMRCA 6800 ybp. R-Y7771 is only one SNP downstream according to Yfull so the TMRCA must be between 6,800 and 4,900 ybp and a Neolithic subhaplogroup.

There are sub-class of R-Y7771 specially R-Y18458 with a TMRCA of 1950 years.
I'm R-Y18458 and I know the history and the migration of my ancestors.
I invite everyone to stop speculating on R-V88. There are writings and oral narratives that indicate the periods of arrivals of many of these R-V88 in africa that do not match the neolithic migrations.

Inigo Montoya
01-06-2016, 01:29 PM
There are sub-class of R-Y7771 specially R-Y18458 with a TMRCA of 1950 years.
I'm R-Y18458 and I know the history and the migration of my ancestors.
I invite everyone to stop speculating on R-V88. There are writings and oral narratives that indicate the periods of arrivals of many of these R-V88 in africa that do not match the neolithic migrations.

Such as?

Darko
01-06-2016, 01:47 PM
Contrary to what has often been said, many R-V88 did not arrived in Africa during the Neolithic period. This arrival is very recent.
Some arrived around the year 500 BCE from Syria, Palestine and Babylon after the fall of the Assyrian empire.
Many (including R-Y7771) arrived between 400 years AD . They came from Saudi Arabia and Yemen.
Other R-V88 came with VANDALS who had previously invaded the Iberian Peninsula.
When the Vandals Empire in Africa was destroyed in 533 (after more than a century of existence in Africa) by the Byzantine army, some of these vandals have shelters within the African land and mixed with the local populations. Others were captured and taken to Byzance. Some of the vandals of Byzance are again returned to Africa with Muslim conquests.

the Vandals invaders founded their kingdom in Carthage in Tunisia in north africa and then few vandals survivors took refuge among their Berber( amazigh) allies and mixed with them, but i think, as suggested by genetiker that R1b-V88 came from west Asia into the southern Levant or Arabian peninsula (some arabe belong to this haplogroups) then spread across north Africa via Egypt or Mediterranean sea-faring during the early Neolithic.

Megalophias
01-06-2016, 01:48 PM
There are sub-class of R-Y7771 specially R-Y18458 with a TMRCA of 1950 years.
I'm R-Y18458 and I know the history and the migration of my ancestors.
I invite everyone to stop speculating on R-V88. There are writings and oral narratives that indicate the periods of arrivals of many of these R-V88 in africa that do not match the neolithic migrations.
Could you direct us to the specific sources for this? Sounds very interesting.

ADW_1981
01-06-2016, 02:03 PM
I don't see how someone can make a reasonable case that R1b-V88 was part of any modern historical European migration with so few descendants today. Sure, I suppose it may ultimately have a European origin, but its distribution pattern suggests a settlement along the coastal Levant and then moved southwards into Africa and Arabia.

grouza31
01-06-2016, 03:06 PM
I don't see how someone can make a reasonable case that R1b-V88 was part of any modern historical European migration with so few descendants today. Sure, I suppose it may ultimately have a European origin, but its distribution pattern suggests a settlement along the coastal Levant and then moved southwards into Africa and Arabia.

What I said is that the R-V88-group in Africa is as diverse as varied and that this group comes from different backgrounds (Middle East, Central Europe and Northern Europe, .....)
The problem of genetic study is not genetic analysis itself but the interpretation of the results of this analysis. To interpret these results, we need always to couple these results with the stories (oral or other) and historical writings of the concerned populations.
The finding in one place a group of people who have the same TMRCA and the same formed age of their haplogroup does not absolutely mean that this group is present at this location for an equal age at TMRCA or the formed age of their haplogroup.
When talking about R-V88 in Africa, people forget that this group does not even represent 0.1% of the African population.
We also forget that there has been in Africa a contribution of R-V88 migrants during the pre-Islamic period, during the islamic period, during the European colonial period and after the colonial period.

grouza31
01-06-2016, 03:24 PM
the Vandals invaders founded their kingdom in Carthage in Tunisia in north africa and then few vandals survivors took refuge among their Berber( amazigh) allies and mixed with them, but i think, as suggested by genetiker that R1b-V88 came from west Asia into the southern Levant or Arabian peninsula (some arabe belong to this haplogroups) then spread across north Africa via Egypt or Mediterranean sea-faring during the early Neolithic.

Darko,
Do you know that the Berber (Amazigh) emigrated in central Africa and formed a tribe called beriberi or barebare. This group (due to internal migration) is found in Nigeria, Niger, Cameroon, Ghana ect ...
In this group we mostly find the R-V88.

Arame
01-06-2016, 04:21 PM
What about the Sao civilisation?
It is little bit late but theoretically can be linked to R1b-V88 people.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sao_civilisation

Arame
01-06-2016, 04:28 PM
Btw what is the age of Proto Chadic?
Do it fits into V88 TMRCA?

ADW_1981
01-06-2016, 04:47 PM
What I said is that the R-V88-group in Africa is as diverse as varied and that this group comes from different backgrounds (Middle East, Central Europe and Northern Europe, .....)
The problem of genetic study is not genetic analysis itself but the interpretation of the results of this analysis. To interpret these results, we need always to couple these results with the stories (oral or other) and historical writings of the concerned populations.
The finding in one place a group of people who have the same TMRCA and the same formed age of their haplogroup does not absolutely mean that this group is present at this location for an equal age at TMRCA or the formed age of their haplogroup.
When talking about R-V88 in Africa, people forget that this group does not even represent 0.1% of the African population.
We also forget that there has been in Africa a contribution of R-V88 migrants during the pre-Islamic period, during the islamic period, during the European colonial period and after the colonial period.

Looking at the results from here : https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1Asterisk/default.aspx?section=yresults

There is only 1 surname that is V88 in northern Europe which is absolutely meaningless and could amount to a single NPE. Secondly, there are only about 2-3 other North European V88 haplotypes which have equally no weight when 10s of thousands of Englishmen have been tested in the FTDNA database and are V88-. Moreover, there are dozens of Middle Eastern, African, jewish, and a small cluster of South Europeans who fall into this bracket. It's definitely an uphill battle to state that V88 arrived with Vandals or any north European for that matter.

The V88 haplotypes are very diverse because it is a very old branch, not because they represent distinct migrations.

Darko
01-06-2016, 07:32 PM
[QUOTE=grouza31;131903]Darko,
Do you know that the Berber (Amazigh) emigrated in central Africa and formed a tribe called beriberi or barebare. This group (due to internal migration) is found in Nigeria, Niger, Cameroon, Ghana ect ...
In this group we mostly find the R-V88.[/QUO
the north african, arab and berber; is in majority belong to E-M81 (80%) and it peaks 100% in some berber zone like douiret in south Tunisia the second haplogroup is J while haplogroup R represents only 2% of north african. haplogroup R in north africa is in majority R1B-M269 (mainly due to European colonization and piracy on the European coasts ) and R1A-Z93 (mainly due the Arab and Turkish invasion and maybe also from the alans allies of vandals). while the surviving Vandals after their defeats against the armies of byzantium are too little and took refuge in the mountains with their Berber allies and their genetic impact is minimal

Megalophias
01-06-2016, 08:18 PM
What I said is that the R-V88-group in Africa is as diverse as varied and that this group comes from different backgrounds (Middle East, Central Europe and Northern Europe, .....)
The problem of genetic study is not genetic analysis itself but the interpretation of the results of this analysis. To interpret these results, we need always to couple these results with the stories (oral or other) and historical writings of the concerned populations.
The finding in one place a group of people who have the same TMRCA and the same formed age of their haplogroup does not absolutely mean that this group is present at this location for an equal age at TMRCA or the formed age of their haplogroup.
When talking about R-V88 in Africa, people forget that this group does not even represent 0.1% of the African population.
We also forget that there has been in Africa a contribution of R-V88 migrants during the pre-Islamic period, during the islamic period, during the European colonial period and after the colonial period.
But how could this work? Sure, R1b-V88 is not a large proportion of African Y DNA except in a few places, but as a rule it is much more frequent than any other Eurasian haplogroup in West and Central Africa. It can't possibly be random introgression from Europeans and Middle Easterners, because then it would be swamped with I, J, other R clades, etc. You can't have diverse origins from groups where it is rare, that would require multiple unlikely founder effects all at the same time. A Berber connection maybe.

grouza31
01-06-2016, 09:55 PM
Looking at the results from here : https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1Asterisk/default.aspx?section=yresults

There is only 1 surname that is V88 in northern Europe which is absolutely meaningless and could amount to a single NPE. Secondly, there are only about 2-3 other North European V88 haplotypes which have equally no weight when 10s of thousands of Englishmen have been tested in the FTDNA database and are V88-. Moreover, there are dozens of Middle Eastern, African, jewish, and a small cluster of South Europeans who fall into this bracket. It's definitely an uphill battle to state that V88 arrived with Vandals or any north European for that matter.

The V88 haplotypes are very diverse because it is a very old branch, not because they represent distinct migrations.

ADW_1981,
There is no connection between the surname and the haplogroup.
There were in Europe many Muslims and Jews who had converted willingly or strength to Christianity. In Africa, many Christians and Jews were converted to Islam with Muslim invasions. The same conversions took place in middle east.
FamilytreeDna you mention. I'm R-V88. A FTDNA, 94% (33/35) of my YSTR match (near or far) are Northern Europe (Ireland, England, Scotland, Sweeden ...).

grouza31
01-06-2016, 10:12 PM
But how could this work? Sure, R1b-V88 is not a large proportion of African Y DNA except in a few places, but as a rule it is much more frequent than any other Eurasian haplogroup in West and Central Africa. It can't possibly be random introgression from Europeans and Middle Easterners, because then it would be swamped with I, J, other R clades, etc. You can't have diverse origins from groups where it is rare, that would require multiple unlikely founder effects all at the same time. A Berber connection maybe.

In central and south africa, you can find midle eastern haplogroup like J and E (midle eastern branch). There is very little genetic studies that have been made in Africa. Genetic studies have been done in a few small areas where it is assumed that indigenous people are pure or where they are of foreign origin.

Bonnie
01-09-2016, 06:13 PM
Now that the R1b are well taken care of -- with SNP results expected tomorrow -- what I'd REALLY like, is help with a few other very strange haplotypes, which are much harder to identify than the R1b were. What's the best forum for me to post them, to get ideas on their haplogroups, and suggestions for what SNPs to test first?

All right, after some double-checking by Astrid of unusual STR values, and further comparisons with other data, the other ["strange," unusual] samples are reasonably well classified. They most likely belong to E1a, E2, B1, B2a1, and A0a1a1. The most troublesome sample had poor DNA quality and thus led us astray, but the haplogroups above, which don't include that sample, are now reasonably sure.

We'd love to find sponsors for any SNP testing of any of these samples!

Bonnie
01-09-2016, 07:10 PM
FWIW, for those debating the origins of R-V88 in Africa... I think it would be reasonable to conclude that some may be recent, however there have been important papers coming out pointing to the arrival of large numbers of Middle Eastern or Mediterranean people in Northeast Africa thousands of years ago, who then migrated to much of the continent. I may link to these later.

Data we have from samples collected by Matthew and colleagues in 2003 and 2005, shows a large number of samples -- 446 --that were tested as P(xR1a), presumed to be R1b.

The largest ethnic groups among them are:

170 Kotoko
58 Arabs
26 Kanuri
25 Toupouri

I don't know the history of Northern Cameroon, but I would imagine that people who still identify as Arabs would have a relatively recent arrival.

The J haplogroup members in this same data include 40 Arabs, 11 Kotoko, and 4 Kanuri. I'd hazard a guess that it's largely J1, based on the DYS388=16 that almost all have in this un-diverse set of haplotypes.

Of the 181 men who culturally identified as "Arab," these were their haplogroups:
58 R1b
40 J
30 A3b2
26 E1b1b, or other E(xE1b1a)
14 E1b1a
7 probably B
6 possibly T

The 356 Kotoko have these haplogroups:
170 R1b
117 A3b2
24 E1b1a
21 E1b1b, or other E(E1b1a)
11 J
7 probably B
5 possible T
1 A00

We think the few scattered A00 in this and other northern ethnic groups result from the known history of active slave-trading of people from Southwest Cameroon to the North.

The 55 Kanuri are:
26 R1b
14 A3b2
8 E1b1b, or other E(E1b1a)
4 J
3 E1b1a

The 40 Toupouri break down as follows:
25 R1b
10 E1b1a
3 B
1 A3b2

I hope this data is helpful.

Bonnie

Шад
04-13-2016, 07:39 PM
There are sub-class of R-Y7771 specially R-Y18458 with a TMRCA of 1950 years.
I'm R-Y18458 and I know the history and the migration of my ancestors.
I invite everyone to stop speculating on R-V88. There are writings and oral narratives that indicate the periods of arrivals of many of these R-V88 in africa that do not match the neolithic migrations.

@grouza31

Do you have information about the second man, who belongs to your branch?
https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18458/

ADW_1981
04-13-2016, 11:53 PM
FWIW, for those debating the origins of R-V88 in Africa... I think it would be reasonable to conclude that some may be recent, however there have been important papers coming out pointing to the arrival of large numbers of Middle Eastern or Mediterranean people in Northeast Africa thousands of years ago, who then migrated to much of the continent. I may link to these later.

Data we have from samples collected by Matthew and colleagues in 2003 and 2005, shows a large number of samples -- 446 --that were tested as P(xR1a), presumed to be R1b.

The largest ethnic groups among them are:

170 Kotoko
58 Arabs
26 Kanuri
25 Toupouri

I don't know the history of Northern Cameroon, but I would imagine that people who still identify as Arabs would have a relatively recent arrival.

The J haplogroup members in this same data include 40 Arabs, 11 Kotoko, and 4 Kanuri. I'd hazard a guess that it's largely J1, based on the DYS388=16 that almost all have in this un-diverse set of haplotypes.

Of the 181 men who culturally identified as "Arab," these were their haplogroups:
58 R1b
40 J
30 A3b2
26 E1b1b, or other E(xE1b1a)
14 E1b1a
7 probably B
6 possibly T

The 356 Kotoko have these haplogroups:
170 R1b
117 A3b2
24 E1b1a
21 E1b1b, or other E(E1b1a)
11 J
7 probably B
5 possible T
1 A00

We think the few scattered A00 in this and other northern ethnic groups result from the known history of active slave-trading of people from Southwest Cameroon to the North.

The 55 Kanuri are:
26 R1b
14 A3b2
8 E1b1b, or other E(E1b1a)
4 J
3 E1b1a

The 40 Toupouri break down as follows:
25 R1b
10 E1b1a
3 B
1 A3b2

I hope this data is helpful.

Bonnie

Thank you. This is a great dataset. Was it ever published?