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Humanist
01-25-2013, 08:45 PM
A milestone. The distribution is still predominated by members of the "Nestorian" church, but it is certainly a very good beginning. Most of the data is from 23andMe and FTDNA.

N=100 (Jan. 25, 2013)
23% R1b
20% J1
14% T
14% J2
9% E1b1b1
9% G
4% R2a
3% Q1b
2% R1a
1% F
1% L


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/chart_1.png

AJL
01-25-2013, 09:04 PM
Cool!

Incidentally, this is my standing offer to test your R1a guys for relevant downstream SNPs. I suspect there's a fair amount of unexplored R1a in the Near East, with a number of different subclades in the R-Arabia Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-arabia/default.aspx

But we're weak on R1a from the northern Near East for now:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Lebanon-Syria-DNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

DMXX
01-26-2013, 02:00 AM
The frequency of Y-DNA T-M184 is remarkable. I have never seen a sample population in the region exceed 10%. Does the subclade diversity within Assyrians tell us much?

Humanist
01-26-2013, 04:39 PM
Cool!

Incidentally, this is my standing offer to test your R1a guys for relevant downstream SNPs. I suspect there's a fair amount of unexplored R1a in the Near East, with a number of different subclades in the R-Arabia Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-arabia/default.aspx

But we're weak on R1a from the northern Near East for now:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Lebanon-Syria-DNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

Hi AJ. That is very generous of you. Yonan (kit # 42050) is Z93+. Please let me know which SNPs you would like to test, and I will get in contact with him regarding the testing.



The frequency of Y-DNA T-M184 is remarkable. I have never seen a sample population in the region exceed 10%. Does the subclade diversity within Assyrians tell us much?

Hi, Humata. It is difficult to say, really. I am hoping they will test some of the other ethnic minorities in the region soon. I would also like to better understand the Y-DNA T in SW Iran (e.g. Bakhtiari).

AJL
01-26-2013, 07:24 PM
It's my pleasure! There's a new SNP beyond Z93 and L342 below it (L342 is itself a little unreliable since it can back-mutate) called Z2122. I'd like to try Mr. Yonan for Z2122, and if Mr. Assur is amenable, Z93, at least for starters.

Right now, Z2122 includes one Ukrainian, both Mamluk and annihilus from DNA-Forums (both seeming to have Steppe Turkic ancestry), and Ashkenazi Levites. It would be great to see if this is truly a north-of-Caucasus SNP or if it extends into the northern Near East as well.

Mamluk
01-27-2013, 03:19 PM
Don't forget Z2122 also includes Orlov-Boukolov, a Russian from Belgorod.

Just an interesting observation, not related to human migration patterns, that so far Z2122+ tested members' ancestors, when placed on a map, are almost lined up along the 36'E longitude (Belarus on 27'E).

AJL
01-27-2013, 04:15 PM
Yes, thanks, I had forgotten about him.

Palisto
01-28-2013, 07:29 AM
A milestone. The distribution is still predominated by members of the "Nestorian" church, but it is certainly a very good beginning. Most of the data is from 23andMe and FTDNA.

N=100 (Jan. 25, 2013)
23% R1b
20% J1
14% T
14% J2
9% E1b1b1
9% G
4% R2a
3% Q1b
2% R1a
1% F
1% L


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/chart_1.png

Thanks for sharing, Humanist. This is pretty interesting. The high frequency of T and R1b is remarkable for the Middle East. It is a little bit early to ask for that but do you see any regional/religious clustering within the Assyrian community?


It's my pleasure! There's a new SNP beyond Z93 and L342 below it (L342 is itself a little unreliable since it can back-mutate) called Z2122. I'd like to try Mr. Yonan for Z2122, and if Mr. Assur is amenable, Z93, at least for starters.

Right now, Z2122 includes one Ukrainian, both Mamluk and annihilus from DNA-Forums (both seeming to have Steppe Turkic ancestry), and Ashkenazi Levites. It would be great to see if this is truly a north-of-Caucasus SNP or if it extends into the northern Near East as well.

FYI, the Z2122 test for the Iraqi Kurd H1483 (Z93+, L342+, L657-) is ongoing.
Based on the new STR111 the R1a tree I presented here
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2013/01/r1a1a-str111-tree.html
I want to make the prediction that the Z2122 SNP is also present in the Middle East because (besides 116213) H1483 is one of the closest individuals to the Ashkenazi Levite cluster. Additionally, I think "Mamluk" is actually a Palestinian (116213), and "annihilus" (158657) is a Turk from Turkey, so they are both from South of the Caucasus. They can correct me if I am wrong.
Taken the current data together, Z2122 includes one Ukrainian, a Russian from Belgorod, one Palestinian, one Turk, and the Ashkenazi Levites.

The Assyrian R1a individual 92226 is closest to M7171 (Yusuf; L342-, L657-, Z283-, Z93+, Z94-).

AJL
01-28-2013, 04:49 PM
FYI, the Z2122 test for the Iraqi Kurd H1483 (Z93+, L342+, L657-) is ongoing.
Based on the new STR111 the R1a tree I presented here
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2013/01/r1a1a-str111-tree.html
I want to make the prediction that the Z2122 SNP is also present in the Middle East because (besides 116213) H1483 is one of the closest individuals to the Ashkenazi Levite cluster. Additionally, I think "Mamluk" is actually a Palestinian (116213), and "annihilus" (158657) is a Turk from Turkey, so they are both from South of the Caucasus. They can correct me if I am wrong.
Taken the current data together, Z2122 includes one Ukrainian, a Russian from Belgorod, one Palestinian, one Turk, and the Ashkenazi Levites.

The Assyrian R1a individual 92226 is closest to M7171 (Yusuf; L342-, L657-, Z283-, Z93+, Z94-).

Thanks, I'll be very interested to see the results of kit H1483.

Mamluk
01-28-2013, 06:11 PM
I want to make the prediction that the Z2122 SNP is also present in the Middle East because (besides 116213) H1483 is one of the closest individuals to the Ashkenazi Levite cluster.

Additionally, I think "Mamluk" is actually a Palestinian (116213), and "annihilus" (158657) is a Turk from Turkey, so they are both from South of the Caucasus. They can correct me if I am wrong.



Palisto, H1483 results will be interesting to see.

You are technically right about Annihilus and I, but to a certain degree. Our family histories (oral and written) state that our ancestors came from north of the Black Sea. If my memory isn't muddled, I think Annihilus said he can verify with a "paper trail" his ancestor's arrival to Turkey from the Balkans/Greece, but oral tradition takes the ancestors further back to the Steppe. I've been interested to know the details of his history. And I assume his ancestor arrived to Turkey as a result of the workings of the Ottoman Empire.

My family patriarch was an actual mamluk, before the Ottomans even arrived, and given the time period, came from what is now Ukraine, but not further east than Rostov oblast (in Russia). His arrival, and those of other patriarchs from my grandparents' hometown, was the result of them being sent there to occupy a conquered Templar fortress (called the Castle of Saphet) under command of Sultan Baybars, who himself was born in Ukraine! For about 700 years my family continued to occupy the same house within the Templar fortress compound until the fall of the Ottoman Empire after World War I.

I am not too familiar with details of the histories of the Kurdish and Assyrian peoples, but if Z2122 shows up there, then I would assume, among other assumptions: That Z2122 is a much older SNP--that maybe it even pre-dates the Scythians, and maybe the Hittites and Mittani brought it with them to the Fertile Crescent? (they themselves supposedly came from north of the Caucasus), and this may help explain why some Kurds look more like Afghans and Türkmen, than Iraqi Arabs, and speak an Indo-European language instead of a Semitic one. (?)

My current assumption in regards to Z2122, is that it either arose among the Scythian peoples, or among the proto-Khazars and Kipchaks-Cumans arriving from the east, during the Turkic migrations westwards, and can now be found in some of their R1a-L342 descendants.

Mamluk
01-28-2013, 07:18 PM
Also, based on that pie chart, R1a is such a small percentage (2%) of overall Assyrian Y DNA--it comes in 9th place! I would expect Kurds to have more R1a than Assyrians, especially if we consider the Indo-Aryan contribution to the Kurdish gene pool. Assyrians are Semitic and speak a Semitic language.

Palisto
01-29-2013, 01:30 AM
Palisto, H1483 results will be interesting to see.

You are technically right about Annihilus and I, but to a certain degree. Our family histories (oral and written) state that our ancestors came from north of the Black Sea. If my memory isn't muddled, I think Annihilus said he can verify with a "paper trail" his ancestor's arrival to Turkey from the Balkans/Greece, but oral tradition takes the ancestors further back to the Steppe. I've been interested to know the details of his history. And I assume his ancestor arrived to Turkey as a result of the workings of the Ottoman Empire.

My family patriarch was an actual mamluk, before the Ottomans even arrived, and given the time period, came from what is now Ukraine, but not further east than Rostov oblast (in Russia). His arrival, and those of other patriarchs from my grandparents' hometown, was the result of them being sent there to occupy a conquered Templar fortress (called the Castle of Saphet) under command of Sultan Baybars, who himself was born in Ukraine! For about 700 years my family continued to occupy the same house within the Templar fortress compound until the fall of the Ottoman Empire after World War I.

I see, thanks for your explanation. I totally respect the oral/writtern traditions of your and Annihilus' family, however, I remain skeptical, especially when it stretches many, many centuries in the Middle East.



I am not too familiar with details of the histories of the Kurdish and Assyrian peoples, but if Z2122 shows up there, then I would assume, among other assumptions: That Z2122 is a much older SNP--that maybe it even pre-dates the Scythians, and maybe the Hittites and Mittani brought it with them to the Fertile Crescent?

We will see but this would mean that Z2122 is very old in the Middle East. This would also mean that the Z2122 Ashkenazi Levite cluster could be from the Middle East.



My current assumption in regards to Z2122, is that it either arose among the Scythian peoples, or among the proto-Khazars and Kipchaks-Cumans arriving from the east, during the Turkic migrations westwards, and can now be found in some of their R1a-L342 descendants.

Time and new results will tell...


Also, based on that pie chart, R1a is such a small percentage (2%) of overall Assyrian Y DNA--it comes in 9th place! I would expect Kurds to have more R1a than Assyrians, especially if we consider the Indo-Aryan contribution to the Kurdish gene pool. Assyrians are Semitic and speak a Semitic language.
Y-haplogroups are highly diverse in Kurds; R1a in Kurds is above 10%, the 2nd place after J2.

Silesian
01-29-2013, 03:53 AM
That Z2122 is a much older SNP--that maybe it even pre-dates the Scythians, and maybe the Hittites and Mittani brought it with them to the Fertile Crescent? (they themselves supposedly came from north of the Caucasus), and this may help explain why some Kurds look more like Afghans and Türkmen, than Iraqi Arabs, and speak an Indo-European language instead of a Semitic one. (?)

My current assumption in regards to Z2122, is that it either arose among the Scythian peoples, or among the proto-Khazars and Kipchaks-Cumans arriving from the east, during the Turkic migrations westwards, and can now be found in some of their R1a-L342 descendants.

The region around Transcaucasia[close to Assyrian lands] has R1b-Z2105 and R1a-Z2122[L342+L657-], as does the area inhabited by ancient Iranian tribes, like Pakistan. It would be logical to make a connection with proto-Indo-Iranians.
Compare the overlap between Z2105 and Z2122 in the following three projects.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r-arabia/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Lebanon-Syria-DNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

Humanist
02-08-2013, 10:17 PM
Twelve-marker haplotypes for all R-M269 Assyrians that I am aware of. Almost all of them are from the "Nestorian" church. Most participants in the project, as previously mentioned, are from the "Nestorian" church.

A 12 24 14 10 12 15 12 12 12 12 13 26
B 12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28
C 12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28
D 12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27
E 12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29
F 12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29
G 12 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30
H 12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29
I 12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
J 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 30
K 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
L 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
M 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
N 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
O 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
P 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
Q 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30


The individuals "K" and "Q" are L943+ confirmed. One of Marko's past 67-STR trees had their TMRCA at ~2200 years ago.

Silesian
02-09-2013, 01:00 AM
Nestorian Church

It would be interesting, if the wiki info has any merit? Why would they call the site Nestorius was born in Germanicia, odd?

Nestorian-Nestorius was born around 381/386 in Germanicia in the Roman province of Syria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahramanmara%C5%9F

Who exactly were the Christians in Persia?
The existing Christians in Persia welcomed these refugees and gradually adopted Nestorian doctrine, leading the Church of Persia to be known alternately as the Nestorian Church.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorian_Church

Kahramanmara/Germanicia is not to far from Aleppo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorian_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanicia

Balochi-

"Like other Middle eastern ethnic groups, the Baloch claim Arabian extraction, however this is disputed, asserting that they are descendant of Amir Hamza, a paternal uncle of Islamic Prophet Muhammad.
They consistently place their first settlement in Aleppo, where they remained until"

Balochi- It also contains archaic features reminiscent of Old Persian and Avestan.
Balochi is a Northwestern Iranian language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baloch_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baloch_people
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_94dqXFvEs

Are Assyrian R1b samples connected to samples coming from this project?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx?section=yresults
Are they connected to the Lurs?
According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, the Lurs speak an form of Archaic Persian.[4] linguist Don Still, Lori-Bakhtiari alongside Persian is derived directly from Old Persian.[5]
"the Lurs are distinguished from other Iranian groups by their relatively elevated frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b (specifically, of subclade R1b1a2a-L23)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs

AJL
02-09-2013, 01:24 AM
In fact, Kahramanmaras has some samples in YHRD. Some of them are the closest matches I have seen, outside known Y relatives, to my R1b-L584 line -- which was from Aleppo, with a related branch coming from nearby Gaziantep, Turkey (kits 70052, 168729, 223365, and 227311 in this project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ades/). I think a few Assyrians have tested positive for L584 already?

Humanist
02-09-2013, 01:46 AM
Who exactly were the Christians in Persia?
The existing Christians in Persia welcomed these refugees and gradually adopted Nestorian doctrine, leading the Church of Persia to be known alternately as the Nestorian Church.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorian_Church

The traditional "birthplace" of Syriac Christianity, or at least its liturgical tongue, is Edessa, in what is now SE Turkey. Not far from Harran. Both Arbil and Edessa were early homes of Syriac Christianity. The seat of the Church of the East's Patriarch, however, was in Seleucia-Ctesiphon.

A bit more on the religion(s) of Edessa at the dawn of the Christian era, from the Doctrine of Addai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_addai):


For I saw in this city that it abounded greatly in paganism, which is against God. Who is this Nebo,45 an idol made which ye worship, |24 and Bel,46 which ye honour? Behold, there are those among you who adore Bath Nical,47 as the inhabitants of Harran your neighbours, and Taratha,48 as the people of Mabug, and the eagle, as the Arabians, also the sun and the moon,as the rest of the inhabitants of Harran, who are as yourselves. |25 Be ye not led away captive by the rays of the luminaries and the bright star; for every one who worships creatures is cursed before God...

....

Shavida and Ebednebo, chiefs of the priests of this city, with Piroz 56 and Dancu 57 their companions, when they saw the signs which he did, ran and threw down the altars upon which they sacrificed before Nebo and Bel their gods, except the great altar, which was in the midst of the city, and they cried out and said, that this is truly the disciple of the distinguished and glorious Master of whom we heard all those things, which He did in the country of Palestine. And all who believed in Christ, Addai received, and baptized them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit...

Humanist
02-09-2013, 01:54 AM
In fact, Kahramanmaras has some samples in YHRD. Some of them are the closest matches I have seen, outside known Y relatives, to my R1b-L584 line -- which was from Aleppo, with a related branch coming from nearby Gaziantep, Turkey (kits 70052, 168729, 223365, and 227311 in this project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ades/). I think a few Assyrians have tested positive for L584 already?

Hi AJ. Yes. Some, or a significant chunk of our R-M269 may certainly be from this region (SE Turkey/N Syria).

Humanist
02-09-2013, 02:01 AM
Are Assyrian R1b samples connected to samples coming from this project?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx?section=yresults
Are they connected to the Lurs?
According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, the Lurs speak an form of Archaic Persian.[4] linguist Don Still, Lori-Bakhtiari alongside Persian is derived directly from Old Persian.[5]
"the Lurs are distinguished from other Iranian groups by their relatively elevated frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b (specifically, of subclade R1b1a2a-L23)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs

Ancient Persia and Mesopotamia were very close. Particularly after the fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire. Babylon, in the last half of the 1st millennium BCE was a melting pot of the Sumero-Akkadian people of old, West Semites, Elamites/Persians, and Greco-Macedonians.

Humanist
02-09-2013, 02:12 AM
I mention him often (And for good reason. See the "Doctrine of Addai," above), but it is interesting to note that the Sumero-Akkadian god Nabu, during the period of Persian dominance of Mesopotamia was syncretized with Indo-Iranian Mitra. During the Hellenistic period, Nabu was syncretized with Apollo.

Silesian
02-09-2013, 02:14 AM
The traditional "birthplace" of Syriac Christianity, or at least its liturgical tongue, is Edessa, in what is now SE Turkey. Not far from Harran. Both Arbil and Edessa were early homes of Syriac Christianity. The seat of the Church of the East's Patriarch, however, was in Seleucia-Ctesiphon.

I just had a funny thought. It would be funny the Eurogenes Euro East Med, high reading in East Med, connects Western Europeans with settlements found in

52.92 Druze
43.64 Samaritan
39.60 Assyrian

which is different from the South West Asian score, high in Bedouins .

Ancient Samaria is in between Scythiopolis and Druze ydna, L found in Harrappa region if my memory serves me correct.L-M20 was found in 51% of Syrians from Al-Raqqah
ydna L R1a z2122 R1b z2105 and mtdna X2e shared among Druze Altai region, and phenotypes some Druze look like Chärchän Man,could these populations be connected?
http://www.centralasiatraveler.com/cn/xj/cq/images/cq_z_zaghunluq_cherchenhead.jpg


"This study confirms the assertion of Han [1998] that the occupants of Alwighul and Krorän are not derived from proto-European steppe populations, but share closest affinities with Eastern Mediterranean populations. Further, the results demonstrate that such Eastern Mediterraneans may also be found at the urban centers of the Oxus civilization located in the north Bactrian oasis to the west. Affinities are especially close between Krorän, the latest of the Xinjiang samples, and Sapalli, the earliest of the Bactrian samples, while Alwighul and later samples from Bactria exhibit more distant phenetic affinities. This pattern may reflect a possible major shift in interregional contacts in Central Asia in the early centuries of the second millennium BCE."

Z2105 and mtdna X2 are found in Ireland and Scotland in very small amounts.
R1a/R1b-z2105 X2 could perhaps also be found in above Eastern populations in small amounts.

AJL
02-09-2013, 03:20 AM
I mention him often (And for good reason. See the "Doctrine of Addai," above), but it is interesting to note that the Sumero-Akkadian god Nabu, during the period of Persian dominance of Mesopotamia was syncretized with Indo-Iranian Mitra. During the Hellenistic period, Nabu was syncretized with Apollo.

Interesting -- Moses is supposed to have been buried on Mount Nevo / Jabal Nibu, in Jordan. I can't help wondering if there isn't a link to Nabu there; the pre-Abrahamic Semitic religions often had holy places, shrines, altars, etc., on mountains.

Humanist
02-09-2013, 04:09 AM
Interesting -- Moses is supposed to have been buried on Mount Nevo / Jabal Nibu, in Jordan. I can't help wondering if there isn't a link to Nabu there; the pre-Abrahamic Semitic religions often had holy places, shrines, altars, etc., on mountains.

That is very interesting. Thanks, AJ. Came across this potentially relevant bit yesterday.


The anonymous Syriac book including five of their Mysteries, used by an-Nadim gives: ...as the lambs in the flock... so are the young men sent to the Bayt al Bughadhariyin (house, hall, tent, or shrine of initiation) [60] . The beginning of the Second Mystery starts like this: It is the mystery of devils and idols, taken from their words... This author did not approve of their cults, too. In this mystery animals are mentioned ...to the dogs, ravens and ants. We know that dogs are sacred animals of Nergal (twinbrother of Sin) and the ravens of Nebo of Mercury [61] . In these shrines the young men are initiated in seven days, along seven heavenly bodies, in probably seven initiations. Twenty-two allegories are narrated to them, sung and chanted. They eat and drink and enjoy sacred meals [62] . Wabd is telling how they visit in procession their several shrines on the top of the hills; make vows in May; perform magic acts in June; make noise in July; embellish the shrine of Venus with fragrant flowers and fruits in December. During all these months they offer, and slaughter animals (chickens, lambs, and a bull to Hermes in April)...

Source: THE HARRAN OF THE SABIANS IN THE FIRST MILLENNIUM A.D. citing The Fihrist of Al-Nadim, a tenth century survey of Muslim culture, B. Dodge

SURETH
'nava [nawa --> naba?]
[Animals → Birds]
English : a raven (black corvine bird) , a rook , a corbie , a crow (?)
Dialect : Urmiah

Source: Sureth Online Dictionary


The ancient Greeks included a raven in their mythology. They used the terms for “crow” and “raven” interchangeably and in their stories, Corvus, the Crow, is allied with Apollo. It is Apollo whose chariot provides daily passage across the sky for the sun and it is under Apollo’s influence that life was illuminated by truth and excellence. Perhaps it is this association with illumination that made prophecy one of Apollo’s most important attributes.

Source: The Raven in Mythology

And, from Wikipedia:


Apollo und sein Rabe [Apollo and his raven]

336

Humanist
02-17-2013, 02:36 AM
An interesting connection.

23andMe RF match (an old one)

3rd to Distant Cousin
0.12% shared, 1 segment
Y-DNA R1b1b2a

A search of the net revealed some interesting bits. The match is a Lebanese government official, a Christian, with ancestral roots in Antioch.

A = Antioch

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/antioch.jpg

Humanist
02-17-2013, 03:11 AM
Why would they call the site Nestorius was born in Germanicia, odd?

I did a search for "Germanicia," and I eventually came across this bit. It appears to be linked to what is called "British Israelism."

Even though I believe that the connections between the Near East and Europe have been underestimated, particularly in recent decades, much of what is contained below strikes me as a bit too fanciful. However, the writings of Pliny the Elder are interesting, I must admit.


The Assyrian Empire developed from the city-state of Asur (named for Asshur, a son of Shem—one of Noah's three sons—see Genesis 10:1, 22). Asshur was a brother of Arphaxad—an ancestor of Abraham, who was the father of the Hebrews (Genesis 11:10–26). Thus, true Assyrians and the descendants of Abraham (the Israelites) are kindred peoples. The name Assur means "leader" or "successful." Josephus, writing in the first century ad, writes that the Assyrians "became the most fortunate of nations, beyond others" (Antiquities of the Jews, 1:6:6). In light of their abilities and contributions to Western civilization, this is also true for the Germans. Assur was worshiped as the chief god of Assyria—the god of war—and was portrayed as a solar deity with a winged disc. The Hittites also used both the winged disc and the swastika. The swastika is a symbol for the sun, power, energy, Thor's hammer and the god of weather and storms. An ancient swastika has been found on a limestone slab in front of a temple of Assur (In Search of… The Origin of Nations, White, p. 311).

The Hittites and Assyrians also used a double-headed eagle to symbolize the sky gods—storm, thunder and the sun. These symbols reappear in the culture of Germany, Prussia and Austria, and especially the Third Reich. The Hittites (whom Assyria eventually conquered and absorbed) show linguistic and cultural links with two of the German tribes—Hessians and Prussians. Even more interesting, as historian Josef Bihl noted, are legends that Germany's oldest city, Trier, was founded in about 2000bc by Trebeta, the son of an Assyrian king named Ninus (In Deutschen Landen, p. 69). Visitors can still read an inscription on a historic house in Trier's marketplace, stating that this Assyrian colony was founded 1,300 years before Rome.

Some historians have described the Assyrians as the "Prussians of the Ancient World" (The Ideal and Destiny, McCulloch, p. 224), submissive to centralized authority, with a "deep rooted feeling of superiority"—the idea of being a "master race" (Mass Deportations and Deportees in the Neo-Assyrian Empire, Obed, p. 89). The Assyrians were extremely nationalistic, with "a strong sense of participating in a common and native way of life" (ibid., p. 66)—similar to the German idea of a volk or a people. After the fall of the Assyrian Empire, the Roman historian Pliny mentioned a tribe of the "Assyriani" among the Scythian peoples in the Crimea north of the Black Sea (Natural History, Bk IV. XII. 81). The historian Jerome, writing in the 4th century ad, said that the "descendents of Assur" were among the Celto-Scythian-Hun hordes then invading Europe (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Jerome Letter 123, section 16). Researcher Leon Poliakov notes the ancient Bavarian account that the people of Bavaria came into central Europe from the region of Armenia by the Black Sea (The Aryan Myth, p. 76). Considering this information, it is not surprising to find medieval Arab writers describing the Germans as "Assyrians" (Israelites und Hyksos, Germol, pp. 89–90). The links between Germany and Assyria can be found, and are neither far-fetched nor imagined.

Douglas S. Winnail

ZephyrousMandaru
02-17-2013, 05:45 AM
Humanist, do you think you could PM me the GED Match kit numbers for the two Iraqi Mandaeans? I'm interested in seeing their results for all the calculators on GED Match.

Silesian
02-18-2013, 03:28 AM
I just wanted to sneak this in, besides the y-dna[ have the Assyrian R1b clusters been broken into further clades beside snp z2105?] , hope you don't mind.Also I was wondering about the languages in and around Ancient Assyria. First, where does archaic Assyrian language originate from? Would it be fair to say that the Assyrians were bordered by Sumerian[language isolate] Elamites[language isolate] and North Western Iranian language? So there were in fact two language isolates besides Assyrian languages and North Western Iranian, in the region.?

Humanist
02-18-2013, 04:01 AM
I just wanted to sneak this in, besides the y-dna[ have the Assyrian R1b clusters been broken into further clades beside snp z2105?] , hope you don't mind.Also I was wondering about the languages in and around Ancient Assyria. First, where does archaic Assyrian language originate from? Would it be fair to say that the Assyrians were bordered by Sumerian[language isolate] Elamites[language isolate] and North Western Iranian language? So there were in fact two language isolates besides Assyrian languages and North Western Iranian, in the region.?

We have L584, and then L943, as well as L277. We have men who do not fit neatly in either L584 or L277 (not that they are that well defined!), but they are not tested through a sufficient level of resolution to say much about their phylogenetic placement beyond L23+.

Unfortunately, the other forum is down again. I have many posts on that forum, including many posts pertaining to Akkadian. Here are a few relevant posts. And, thank you for even asking the question.

Akkadian and Sumerian Language Contact

by Gábor Zólyomi

forthcoming in Stefan Weninger, ed., Semitic Languages. An International Handbook (HSK 36). Berlin — New York, Mouton de Gruyter, pp. 387–393


A distinctive development of Akkadian phonology is the gradual merger and loss of the five reconstructed Proto-Semitic ‘guttural’ consonants */!/, */h/, */hø /, */"/, and */g/ by the 2nd millennium B.C.E. (cf. GAG § 23; Huehnergard 1998, 38!40, 587; Kouwenberg 2006). As Sumerian had no such phonemes, this development has been considered a prime example of Sumerian substrate influence on Akkadian.

In the Babylonian dialect of Akkadian, the presence of the newly emerged /e/ in turn caused every /a/ in the stem and the pronominal affixes of the verb to change to /e/, a development known as ‘Babylonian Vowel Harmony’ (Kouwenberg 2001, 226). As a similar rule causing the assimilation of different vowels within a word played an important role in Sumerian (see Keetman 2005, 11!13), Keetman suggested that Babylonian Vowel Harmony might reflect the influence of Sumerian (2004, 11).

These developments started in about the 24th century B.C.E. and were completed by the first part of the 2nd millennium B.C.E. They therefore overlap in time with the period of assumed asymmetrical bilingualism. One is therefore tempted to assume that these phonological changes may in fact reflect the influence of a Sumerian speaking population gradually shifting to Akkadian. Hasselbach finds that contrary to expectations the orthography indicates the loss of gutturals and the phonemicization of /e/ in texts from the north first, but not from the south. She does, however, note the possibility that the Akkadian of the southern texts ‘might have been a learned literary language that was not native to this area’.

In addition to loanwords, there exist a number of Sumerian and Akkadian idioms which correspond to each other word for word, e.g. šag-še — gid = ana libbim šadadum ‘to consider earnestly’ (lit. ‘to draw to the heart’) (cf. Edzard 2003, 175!176).

Tell Nader Project / Tell Baqrta Project (2011)
Dr. Konstantinos Kopanias



As literacy dawns over the horizon of prehistory the first ethnic group whom we know to have inhabited the region [Arbil and its environs] are the Hurrians. This is not to say there were not other groups. There almost certainly were. Texts over these millennia relating to the eastern frontiers of Mesopotamia (for instance Ur III administrative documents and the Shemshara archives) contain a large number of personal names whose linguistic affiliation has not yet been established and it is, in my view, probable that parent languages will one be day be recognised and reconstructed for at least some of them. Be that as it may, the Hurrians are the earliest definable group for whose presence in the region we currently have evidence; followed closely by the Sumerians.

Ergativity in neighboring languages.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Neo_Assyrians_ergativity_.jpg

Humanist
02-18-2013, 08:19 PM
I did a search for "Germanicia," and I eventually came across this bit. It appears to be linked to what is called "British Israelism."

Even though I believe that the connections between the Near East and Europe have been underestimated, particularly in recent decades, much of what is contained below strikes me as a bit too fanciful. However, the writings of Pliny the Elder are interesting, I must admit.


The Assyrian Empire developed from the city-state of Asur (named for Asshur, a son of Shem—one of Noah's three sons—see Genesis 10:1, 22). Asshur was a brother of Arphaxad—an ancestor of Abraham, who was the father of the Hebrews (Genesis 11:10–26). Thus, true Assyrians and the descendants of Abraham (the Israelites) are kindred peoples. The name Assur means "leader" or "successful." Josephus, writing in the first century ad, writes that the Assyrians "became the most fortunate of nations, beyond others" (Antiquities of the Jews, 1:6:6). In light of their abilities and contributions to Western civilization, this is also true for the Germans. Assur was worshiped as the chief god of Assyria—the god of war—and was portrayed as a solar deity with a winged disc. The Hittites also used both the winged disc and the swastika. The swastika is a symbol for the sun, power, energy, Thor's hammer and the god of weather and storms. An ancient swastika has been found on a limestone slab in front of a temple of Assur (In Search of… The Origin of Nations, White, p. 311).

The Hittites and Assyrians also used a double-headed eagle to symbolize the sky gods—storm, thunder and the sun. These symbols reappear in the culture of Germany, Prussia and Austria, and especially the Third Reich. The Hittites (whom Assyria eventually conquered and absorbed) show linguistic and cultural links with two of the German tribes—Hessians and Prussians. Even more interesting, as historian Josef Bihl noted, are legends that Germany's oldest city, Trier, was founded in about 2000bc by Trebeta, the son of an Assyrian king named Ninus (In Deutschen Landen, p. 69). Visitors can still read an inscription on a historic house in Trier's marketplace, stating that this Assyrian colony was founded 1,300 years before Rome.

Some historians have described the Assyrians as the "Prussians of the Ancient World" (The Ideal and Destiny, McCulloch, p. 224), submissive to centralized authority, with a "deep rooted feeling of superiority"—the idea of being a "master race" (Mass Deportations and Deportees in the Neo-Assyrian Empire, Obed, p. 89). The Assyrians were extremely nationalistic, with "a strong sense of participating in a common and native way of life" (ibid., p. 66)—similar to the German idea of a volk or a people. After the fall of the Assyrian Empire, the Roman historian Pliny mentioned a tribe of the "Assyriani" among the Scythian peoples in the Crimea north of the Black Sea (Natural History, Bk IV. XII. 81). The historian Jerome, writing in the 4th century ad, said that the "descendents of Assur" were among the Celto-Scythian-Hun hordes then invading Europe (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Jerome Letter 123, section 16). Researcher Leon Poliakov notes the ancient Bavarian account that the people of Bavaria came into central Europe from the region of Armenia by the Black Sea (The Aryan Myth, p. 76). Considering this information, it is not surprising to find medieval Arab writers describing the Germans as "Assyrians" (Israelites und Hyksos, Germol, pp. 89–90). The links between Germany and Assyria can be found, and are neither far-fetched nor imagined.

Douglas S. Winnail

Reading a bit further on this, I came across these bits. Of course, they may not have a solid basis in fact. But, I thought it was interesting enough to share, given the discussion.

Note "Assyrii" and "Chalybes."

Wikipedia

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Caucasus_.jpg




The Assyrians sometimes moved and were in different areas. Around 530 B.C.:

Scylax of Caryanda names the coast of the Black Sea, from the Chalybians to Armene, westward of the promontory of Syrias, Assyria. Strabo states that these Syrians, who extended from the Taurus northwards as far as the Pontus; were named Leuko-Syrians, i.e. white Syrians. (Dunker M. The history of antiquity, Volume 1. Evelyn Abbott Publisher R. Bentley & son, 1877. Original from the University of Michigan, Digitized Sep 12, 2007, p. 540)

Wikipedia


Chalybes

The Chalybes or Chaldoi (Χάλυβες, Χάλυβοι, Χάλδοι. Georgian ხალიბები) were a Georgian tribe of Classical Antiquity who inhabited the area of Pontus and Cappadocia, located in modern Turkey.

They lived in the northern area of Anatolia known as Chaldia, near the shores of the Black Sea, from the Halys to Pharnakeia and Trabzon in the east and as far south as eastern Asia Minor.

The main sources for the history of the Chaldoi are accounts from classical authors, including Homer, Strabo, and Xenophon. In Roman times, the Chaldaei (homonymous but unrelated to the Semitic Chaldeans) and Chalybes are mentioned by Plutarch (Lucull. c. 14) as settled in Pontus and Cappadocia, or the Pontus Cappadocicus section of the Roman province of Pontus.

newtoboard
02-18-2013, 09:16 PM
Any of the modern languages ergative in the area?

Humanist
02-18-2013, 11:22 PM
Any of the modern languages ergative in the area?

(I am going off on a bit of a tangent here, so please excuse me).

Yes, Sureth has split-ergativity. Most attribute it to contact with an Indo-Iranian language. Kurdish has been mentioned by some. And this very well may be the case, but when it comes to us, our language, genetics, etc., I do not have great trust in academia. Ask academics about Assyrian Christians and you will, by and large, get the same thing that has been regurgitated for the last 100 years. We are from the Levant. We are genetically most similar to Arabs, etc. That we have little to no ties to the Sumero-Akkadian language/culture of old. And on and on. Regarding kinship, linguistics, and other matters, I believe the opinions of academics may soon change. If they do not, so be it. At least there will be information out there for people to make up their own minds, and not rely solely on the opinion of those in academia, many of whom are biblical scholars. A great deal of this has to do with the Abrahamic faiths, in my opinion. A good chunk of the history of the ancient Near East has relied on the stories as told in the holy books of the various faiths. I do not accept it, since it does not stand up to the rigor of scientific/logical examination, based on what we know from "history," including the cuneiform record, the genetics of modern peoples, and the complete record in general. Anyway, my point is, I wish that linguists (and academics in general) would refer to the totality of the record when examining such questions. Including, and perhaps this is wishful thinking, knowledge from non-academic sources. I certainly do not believe I am descended from Sargon of Akkad of 4000+ years ago, and I may not even have much Neo-Assyrian ancestry, but I do believe I am at least a "Mesopotamian mix" from ~2500-1700 years ago. If I am, then, well, the possible sources for our ergativity, including substratum (?) influence, and contact with ancient languages (including, among others, ancient Iranian languages) from the region become possibilities (?).

Humanist
02-19-2013, 04:31 AM
Not to go too off topic, but some more on ergativity, below.

Source: The Handbook of Historical Linguistics

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/ergativity_handbook_.jpg


I asked a question a few months ago, on another forum, regarding the possible genetic and linguistic impact on the Assyrian Heartland, in the 8th and 7th centuries BCE, and beyond, by this fact:

Origin points for ~90% of deportations to the Assyrian Heartland.

Font size = % reported in Roads and Mass Deportations in the Neo-Assyrian Empire (David Danzig 2011)

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/assyrian_deported_heartland__.jpg


And, the contents of a related post:

Again, from the Danzig paper, including some possible ideas regarding languages spoken in the regions in question (added by me).

Sources for all Neo-Assyrian deportations, to all destinations, in descending order of frequency:

56.7% Southern Zagros / Elam and Babylonia (Elamite, Akkadian, Iranian*, Indo-Iranian??)
18.4% Middle and South Levant (Canaanite related languages (i.e. ancient Hebrew), NW Semitic (i.e. Old Aramaic))
8.0% Anatolia (W/C Anatolian Indo-European (e.g. Luwian, Hittite), Hurrian?**)
5.0% Northern Zagros and Foothills (Hurro-Urartian?, Akkadian, Iranian*, Indo-Iranian (e.g. Median?))
4.5% North Levant / Upper Euphrates Elbow (NW Semitic (i.e. Old Aramaic), W/C Anatolian Indo-European (e.g. Luwian, Hittite), Hurrian?)
3.5% Lakes Van and Urmia (Hurro-Urartian related languages, E Anatolian IE (proto-Armenian or Armenian?))
2.0% Euphrates and Tigris Sources (Hurro-Urartian related languages?, E Anatolian IE (proto-Armenian or Armenian?), W/C Anatolian Indo-European?? (e.g. Luwian, Hittite))
2.0% Habur Area / Jazira (NW Semitic (i.e. Old Aramaic), Akkadian, Hurrian?)

* Not Indo-Iranian. Or, at least not from what I have been able to understand from the record.
** This may be a bit late for an actual "Hurrian." Not late for a "Hurro-Urartian" related language, of course (i.e. Urartian).

newtoboard
02-19-2013, 01:51 PM
(I am going off on a bit of a tangent here, so please excuse me).

Yes, Sureth has split-ergativity. Most attribute it to contact with an Indo-Iranian language. Kurdish has been mentioned by some. And this very well may be the case, but when it comes to us, our language, genetics, etc., I do not have great trust in academia. Ask academics about Assyrian Christians and you will, by and large, get the same thing that has been regurgitated for the last 100 years. We are from the Levant. We are genetically most similar to Arabs, etc. That we have little to no ties to the Sumero-Akkadian language/culture of old. And on and on. Regarding kinship, linguistics, and other matters, I believe the opinions of academics may soon change. If they do not, so be it. At least there will be information out there for people to make up their own minds, and not rely solely on the opinion of those in academia, many of whom are biblical scholars. A great deal of this has to do with the Abrahamic faiths, in my opinion. A good chunk of the history of the ancient Near East has relied on the stories as told in the holy books of the various faiths. I do not accept it, since it does not stand up to the rigor of scientific/logical examination, based on what we know from "history," including the cuneiform record, the genetics of modern peoples, and the complete record in general. Anyway, my point is, I wish that linguists (and academics in general) would refer to the totality of the record when examining such questions. Including, and perhaps this is wishful thinking, knowledge from non-academic sources. I certainly do not believe I am descended from Sargon of Akkad of 4000+ years ago, and I may not even have much Neo-Assyrian ancestry, but I do believe I am at least a "Mesopotamian mix" from ~2500-1700 years ago. If I am, then, well, the possible sources for our ergativity, including substratum (?) influence, and contact with ancient languages (including, among others, ancient Iranian languages) from the region become possibilities (?).

I agree with you. Some relgious sources trace Armenians to Cimmerian invasions despite the Balkan character of Armenian and the likely steepe Iranian character of Cimmerians

newtoboard
02-19-2013, 01:53 PM
Why are you placing Akkadian near the Northern Zagros and foothills? I think the Zagros serves as a good bounded for Iranian elements and that would apply to the lake Urmia region (and W. Azerbaijan) where Armenian is a later import as part of Tigran's empire. Plenty of parts of the Armenian empire were Parthian Iranic lands. The later expansion of Iranian elements outside the Zagros probably came the expense of Armenians/Assyrians (with Corduene being an exception but that is just a small part of extreme SE Turkey).

Humanist
02-19-2013, 07:44 PM
Why are you placing Akkadian near the Northern Zagros and foothills? I think the Zagros serves as a good bounded for Iranian elements and that would apply to the lake Urmia region (and W. Azerbaijan) where Armenian is a later import as part of Tigran's empire. Plenty of parts of the Armenian empire were Parthian Iranic lands. The later expansion of Iranian elements outside the Zagros probably came the expense of Armenians/Assyrians (with Corduene being an exception but that is just a small part of extreme SE Turkey).

Those languages are speculative. Given the proximity of the area in question to the Assyrian variety of Akkadian, and information such as that which is contained below, I thought it would not hurt to list it as a possibility. It is not meant to suggest an "indigenous" zone for Akkadian. Simply that, during the period in question, deportees from that area may have spoken, among other languages, Akkadian.

Wikipedia


Teppe Hasanlu or Tappeh Hassanlu (Persian: تپه حسنلو) is an archaeological site of an ancient city[1] located in northwest Iran (in the province of West Azerbaijan), a short distance south of Lake Urmia. The nature of its destruction at the end of the 9th century BC essentially froze one layer of the city in time, providing researchers with extremely well preserved buildings, artifacts, and skeletal remains from the victims and enemy combatants of the attack.

....

Some scholars link changes in pottery forms to cultural contact with Assyria, this being a period of expansion for the Middle Assyrian kingdom, when such kings as Adad-nirari I (1295-1264 BC), Shalmaneser I (1263-1234 BC), and Tukulti-Ninurta I (1233-1197 BC) were conducting campaigns into the Zagros mountains to the south.[13] During this time, there was occupation on the High Mound and Low Mound of Hasanlu, and graves have been excavated at Dinkha Tepe and Hasanlu.

....

The continued presence in significant quantities of Assyrian goods or copies, alongside objects of local manufacture, attest to continued cultural contact with Assyria at this time; iron first appears in bulk at Hansanlu at around the same time Assyria seized control of the metal trade in Asia Minor.[14] While the Neo-Assyrian Empire was beginning a period of renewed power and influence in the 9th century, it is also at this time that the existence of the kingdom of Urartu, centered around Lake Van, is first attested in the Neo-Assyrian annals and related literature. By the time we hear about it, it is already a fully developed state - the circumstances attending its rise in the 2nd millennium are obscure.[15] Urartu’s expansion during this period brought the area south of Lake Urmia under its influence, although material finds at Hasanlu suggest that the city may have remained independent.[16] Nevertheless, Hansanlu was catastrophically destroyed.

Humanist
02-19-2013, 11:04 PM
Another important point to be made, when discussing Neo-Assyrian deportations, and their possible impact, linguistic, genetic, and otherwise, on the Assyrian Heartland.

(bold by me)


[P]eople were not made to leave on their own but did so together with their families. They were not snatched away in the heat of battle or conquest, but were chosen as the result of a deliberate selection process, often in the aftermath of a war that had very possibly reduced their original home to ruins. And when the Assyrian sources specify who was to be relocated, they name the urban elites, craftsmen, specialists and scholars. These people were usually dispatched to the Assyrian heartland to generate knowledge and wealth. Hence, by the beginning of the 7th century BC, the central Assyrian cities of Nineveh, Kalhu and Assur housed experts from all over the known world. Without them, some of the most enduring achievements of the Assyrian kings, such as constructing and furnishing the magnificent palaces and temples or assembling the contents of the fabled library of Assurbanipal, would have been impossible.

....

As we have seen, elites from newly subjugated areas were resettled in the Assyrian heartland to the economic and cultural benefit of the empire, and disgraced Assyrians were deported (rather than killed) in order to redeem themselves as colonists in the king's service. For all these people, relocation was meant to provide a better future while at the same time benefitting the empire, and not just economically. Of course, the relocation of these people was also an effective way of minimising the risk of rebellions and insurrections against central authority.

Karen Radner, 'Mass deportation: the Assyrian resettlement policy', Assyrian empire builders, University College London, 2012 [http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sargon/essentials/governors/massdeportation/]

Humanist
02-20-2013, 08:52 AM
[O]f the cluster characterized by the DYS388-13 and DYS390-23 repeats including North-East Turkish and Assyrian (from Turkey, Iraq and Iran) Y-chromosomes. This cluster harbours also virtually all the M267* Marsh Arab Y chromosomes supporting the previously proposed origin in northern Mesopotamia for the Iraqi Marsh Arabs [20]. However, only a further subdivision of this paragroup will allow a better understanding of times and ways of migrations marked by the M267* Y chromosomes.

Grugni V, Battaglia V, Hooshiar Kashani B, Parolo S, Al-Zahery N, et al. (2012) Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians. PLoS ONE 7(7): e41252. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0041252

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/middle_east_graphic_2003_.jpg

Humanist
02-21-2013, 11:29 AM
I posted the below bit on another forum, and wish to add to it here.



Here's an Alawite - Bashar Al-Assad...

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02393/bashar_2393504b.jpg

I was just reading one of alan trowel hands' threads on a possible "R1b lineage smoking gun," and I was reminded of something. You can file this under the more than likely of "no consequence" category, but it is interesting. And hopefully not too OT!

Note the ancestral home of the Assad family (Qardaha), in the image at bottom. Compare to the Syriac word below.

Qardāḥā n.m. smith, ironworker

The Wikipedia entry on "Qardaha" states the following, although it provides no sources:


The name of Qardaha is Phoenician and means "the place that manufactures, and sharpens the weapons".
In Akkadian, "qardu" meant "heroic."

Teal = Alawite

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/alawite_.jpg


This was written to me a few years back by a distant cousin (Y-DNA: R-L23), regarding another distant cousin (Y-DNA: R-L23). Both from Jilu.


The Demirci family comes from the village of Sarpil in the Jilu sub-district of Ishtazin. Demirci is Turkish for blacksmith (Haddad in Arabic). The story is that they are descended from or related to renowned author Khamis Bar-Qardakhe (http://www.facebook.com/l/4ab63;roger-pearse.com/wiki/index.php?title=Khamis_bar_Qardahe). In Syriac Qardakha also means blacksmith.

Sometime in the 14th century the family lived in Arbil and consisted of 11 brothers and one beautiful sister named Patreh. The brothers were skilled blacksmiths employed by the local Muslim ruler. One day he notices their sister and demands her to be given to him in marriage. Since they could not bring themselves to give away their only sister to a Muslim they decided to escape. I cannot remember how exactly they bid their time, but I remember that they escaped in the snow and nailed their horses' horseshoes on the other way round, so that their tracks would not be traced. They are said to have ended up in the village of Sarpil in Jilu and made new lives there.

A similar ethno-genesis story is shared by the original family (Nashe d-Matha) of the village of Ashitha in Lower Tyari, which was established in the early 1600s. Funnily also a very similar story is shared by the Greek Orthodox Palestinians of Ramallah who are descended from a tribe called the Haddadin (blacksmiths) and who established the town in the 1500s. VERY interesting.

Humanist
02-21-2013, 09:59 PM
A paper that may interest some, considering the topic of the immediately preceding post.

Assyrian Iron Working Technology and Civilization (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fminds.wisconsin.edu%2Fbitstream%2 Fhandle%2F1793%2F53126%2FDiana%2520Haidar.pdf%3Fse quence%3D1&ei=2ZAmUe_jN-rW0QHwsYEQ&usg=AFQjCNEx--iu4SAgyd3bY8w12hZc7QfFjQ&bvm=bv.42661473,d.dmQ)
Diana R. Haidar (2011)
University of Wisconsin


The goal of this document is to provide a resource for all audiences to comprehend the advancements in metal working technology concurrently with the changes that occurred in Assyrian civilization. The main question answered by this document is how and where did iron working technology develop in Assyria between 1200 and 700 B.C.E. and in what way did it reflect and impact the civilization. This time period is significant because Assyria was the first empire to have both iron tools and weapons while expanding its borders.

....

Near the end of the Bronze Age, roughly 1270 B.C.E., Assyrians were trading with the Hittites for iron objects (Maxwell-Hyslop, 142). This is known from the Kizzuwadna Letter, a recorded of the diplomatic exchange between Hittite king Hattusilis III (1289-1265 B.C.E.) and Assyrian king Adad-nirari I (1307-1275 B.C.E.) for iron dagger blades made in Kizzuwadna (MaxwellHyslop, 142). Kizzuwadna was a region in southeastern Turkey that bordered the Mediterranean Sea and Syria, and then stretched to the north to enclose a section in the center of the Taurus Mountains (Maxwell-Hyslop, 142). The Hittites possessed the Kizzuwadna region and used it as a controlled location for distributing iron ore, iron bloom, and fully-formed iron objects from the king’s storehouse and iron working center (Maxwell-Hyslop, 142-143). This control succeeded in protecting the Hittite’s intellectual property until about 1200 B.C.E., when the Middle East was permeated by travelers known as the Land and Sea People. This huge influx of people in numerous locations caused both the Hittite Empire and the Mitanni Kingdom to collapse.

Without the Hittite Empire in existence to trade with for objects of iron, a material superior in strength to copper and bronze, the Assyrians began working iron themselves in the 12th Century B.C.E. (Curtis & Wheeler, 369). This was possible by three main factors: the Assyrian trading colonies in central Turkey, the close proximity of Assyria to Turkey, and the capture of iron mines in southeastern Turkey by Assyrian king Tiglath-Pileser I (1115-1077 B.C.E.). After the fall of the Hittite Empire, around 1200 B.C.E., it was only two hundred years later that iron objects were commonly used and owned, marking the beginning of the Iron Age. This implies that the fall of the Hittite Empire caused a dispersal of iron working knowledge. Yet, the Assyrian Empire was the first to make use of this liberated knowledge. This advantage was likely gained by the members of Assyrian trading colonies in central Turkey, who had the means to transport the iron process home to Assyria. Assyria was also much closer to the Hittite realm than other important nations that were well known for metal working, such as Egypt. Lastly, in the 12th Century B.C.E. King Tiglath-Pileser I had attained control of some iron mines in Turkey, including those in the Kizzuwadna region. Dominion over such areas gave Assyria the advantage of easy access to mines and safe transport of iron materials via their re-captured trade routes.

When iron was transported to Assyria, the first iron blacksmiths in Assyria were linked to the royal court and initially forged iron objects into dagger blades and arrowheads, seen in Figure 10 and Figure 11 (Curtis & Wheeler, 369). The presumption that iron was initially availability to only the societal elite is supported by tablets and grave sites. From an excavation in Nimrud of early iron working period in Assyria, 405 graves were identified and 203 contained metal objects, but only 33 of those had items of iron (Curtis & Wheeler, 370). Furthermore, 35 tombs from this early iron working time, including burial spots of kings, were studied; it was found that 27 contained metal objects and 5 possessed items of iron (Curtis & Wheeler, 370). Therefore, the assumption that elite Assyrians had iron objects first is confirmed by comparing the two sets of tombs, where only 8.15% of general tombs and 14.29% of higher class tombs contained metal objects.

Despite the fact that iron ore is largely available in areas surrounding Mesopotamia, such as Turkey, the Levant and Asia Minor, few excavated Assyrian cities have been found to contain iron artifacts. The Assyrian cities that do contain a recognizable number of iron artifacts have been capital cities – Ashur, Nineveh, Nimrud and Khorsabad. Thus, the Assyrians copied the Hittites by keeping knowledge of iron working as their own intellectual property by geographically restricting it to the heart of the Assyrian Empire.

....

In sum, the bloomery and gangue removal process used to smelt iron ore were original and revolutionary inventions. The Hittites were first to have this knowledge, because of the plentiful iron ore deposits available in Turkey. They maintained the secrecy of the iron smelting method until the empire fell and residents of the empire spread out with the knowledge, such as members of Assyrian trading colonies in central Turkey who transported the intelligence to Assyria. This singular piece of information utterly changed Assyria. Without the Hittite Empire and Mitanni Kingdom present after 1200 B.C.E., the kings of Assyria were unchallenged as they proactively pursued the resources unavailable in Mesopotamia, particularly iron deposits in the northern Levant and Taurus Mountains. Then, they attained the means to transport iron to the heart of Assyria by gathering land under their control to make trading networks, which led to the kingdom expanding into an empire. The transition from kingdom to empire provided wealth from conquests and regular taxes, which was beneficial to the Assyrian people because it was used to improve the economy by boosting agricultural production in rural areas and promoting the continuation of imperialism by building architectural sculptures in urban capital cities. Also in the capital cities Ashur, Nineveh, Nimrud, and Khorsabad were some of the first blacksmiths that experimented with iron blooms in order to make a variety of new iron objects – hoes, armor scales, rings, axes and more. From experience, Assyrians learned that it was advantageous to replace bronze objects with iron ones because of the increase in strength that lengthened object lifetime, the enhanced hardness that kept the object in its original form so re-shaping was conducted less often, and the decrease in weight per volume. In effect, the Assyrians’ desire to use iron provided not only a purpose for conquering new territories with such resources, but a critical military advantage over them.


From Map Languages Anatolia, North Syria and Upper Mesopotamia ca. 1700 BC
Joost Blasweiler - Leiden University

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/kizzuwadna.jpg


^^ This is the same general area I have referred to several times as a possible point of interest as far as R-L23 is concerned.

Humanist
02-22-2013, 12:28 AM
Wikipedia


According to a 1935 letter by the French minister of war, the French considered the Alawites, along with the Druze, as the only "warlike races" in the mandate territories, as excellent soldiers, and the communities from where they could recruit their best troops.[36]

....

A quasi-official name used particularly in 1930s by Turkish authorities [for the Alawites] was Eti Türkleri ("Hittite Turks"), in order to conceal their Arab origins. Today, this term is almost obsolete but it is still used by some people of older generations as a euphemism.

Incidentally (or perhaps not), the Alawites and Druze display the highest frequencies of R-M269 in the Levant. Also, I find it odd that the Turkish authorities, in an attempt to conceal the "Arab" origin of the Alawites, chose "Hittite." Why Hittite? I do not mean to suggest that the Turkish authorities were privy to something that could link the Alawites to the Hittites, but perhaps they chose "Hittite" because the Alawite communities had long been established in that region.

Humanist
02-22-2013, 08:08 AM
Here's an Alawite - Bashar Al-Assad...
I was just reading one of alan trowel hands' threads on a possible "R1b lineage smoking gun," and I was reminded of something. You can file this under the more than likely of "no consequence" category, but it is interesting. And hopefully not too OT!

Note the ancestral home of the Assad family (Qardaha), in the image at bottom. Compare to the Syriac word below.

Qardāḥā n.m. smith, ironworker

The Wikipedia entry on "Qardaha" states the following, although it provides no sources:


The name of Qardaha is Phoenician and means "the place that manufactures, and sharpens the weapons".
In Akkadian, "qardu" meant "heroic."

Teal = Alawite

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/alawite_.jpg

An Akkadian word related to "qardu," is "qarradu." It means, "hero," "warrior."

There is likely no connection, especially since the Hittite word appears to be genuinely Indo-European, but the word for "heart" in Hittite reminded me of Akkadian "qardu," "qarradu."

HITTITE

4.44 — HEART — IE *k̂ēr(d)- appears in H. nom. kir (and suffixless loc. kir), as in Gk. κῆρ and OPruss. seyr; with these belong Arm. sirt (*k̂ērdi-) and Goth. haírto, etc. (*k̂ērd-on-). Zero-grade *k̂r̥d(i)- underlies Hitt. gen. kardiyas and kartas, and Gk. καρδία, Lat. cor, cordis, OIr. cride, Lith. širdìs, OCS srŭdĭce, etc. (IEW 579). Other anatolian forms are Pal. kārti and perhaps Lyc. B kridesi (A kerθθi) (T 556-58).

16.42 — ANGER — kartimmiyatt- (TUKU[.TUKU]-att), from kartimmiya- ‘be angry’, is patently related to ker, kard- ‘heart’ (4.44), in a relationship seen in many languages; cf. Russ. serdít'cja ‘be angry’ : sérdce, Lith. širdýtis : širdìs, Alb. zëmëronem ‘anger’ : zëmëre, Arm. sart-num ‘be angered’ : sirt, Akk. libbātu ‘rage’ : libbu (Pedersen, Hitt. 40; DSS 1137; T 524-26). The form is generally thought to be denom. to a *kartimma-, a midd. part. *karti-mna- of kard- (thus Pedersen and EHS 179) or deverb. from a kartai- or kartiya- (P s.v.). Another possibility might be *karti + miya ‘grow in the heart’; cf. OHG belgan ‘swell’, refl. ‘be angry’, OE, OS belgan ‘be angry’ : OIr. bolgaim ‘I swell’.

Hittite Vocabulary (David Michael Weeks)

Humanist
02-22-2013, 12:14 PM
Most of the 68-111 Y-STR results for our L584 (L943+) man, Kit No: 205749 are now in. One panel still to be reported.

(68-75)
35 15 9 16 12 26 26 17
(86-93)
11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10
(94-102)
23 15 20 12 23 17 12 16 25
(103-111)
12 23 18 10 14 16 8 11 11

Some possible markers of interest.

L584 men
DYS717 = 17
DYS434 = 8 (All other men in the "ht35" project have 9 or 10 at this marker)

A few others that may be of some significance. Need more men in L584 to test beyond the standard 67.
DYS712 = 23
DYS532 = 12
DYS510 = 16

Humanist
02-22-2013, 09:26 PM
Alawite haplotypes (Dönbak et al.)
n=12 13 24 14 11 11 15 XX XX XX 14 13 30 <-- Differs from Assyrian R1b modal at DYS385b and DYS391)
n=5 13 24 14 11 11 15 XX XX XX 13 13 29
n=3 12 25 14 11 11 14 XX XX XX 13 13 29
n=2 12 24 14 12 11 14 XX XX XX 14 13 30
n=2 13 24 14 11 11 15 XX XX XX 12 13 28
n=1 12 23 14 10 11 14 XX XX XX 14 13 30
n=1 12 24 14 10 10 14 XX XX XX 12 13 29
n=1 12 24 14 10 11 14 XX XX XX 13 13 29
n=1 12 24 14 11 11 14 XX XX XX 14 13 30
n=1 12 24 14 12 11 14 XX XX XX 13 13 29
n=1 12 25 14 12 11 14 XX XX XX 14 13 30
n=1 13 24 14 10 11 15 XX XX XX 14 13 30
n=1 13 24 14 11 11 15 XX XX XX 15 13 31
n=1 13 24 14 11 10 15 XX XX XX 15 13 31

Druze Modal (Shlush et al.)
mod 13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 ? 13 13 29

Humanist
02-22-2013, 11:43 PM
If there is a possible "blacksmith" association with some Assyrian men carrying R-M269, there is also a possible link for the Assyrian men carrying a particular J1* line. See the post on the previous page (Iraqi Marsh Arabs and NE Turks). A good many of these men may be descended from the "Matran," or "Metropolitan," line. Regarding this particular group, Wikipedia states the following:


[M]ost famous for their Eastern Rite faith and for being the guardians of the Assyrian Church of the East's canon laws, which they have faithfully preserved.[3]

Humanist
02-23-2013, 02:59 AM
An interesting bit from Ray Banks, from his February 14th edition of the Haplogroup G Newsletter (Haplogroup G Newsletter for 14 Feb 2012) (bold by me):


Final results from Z724 whole sequencing. The results of the three z724 samples which underwent high coverage Y sequencing are now available at

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au_yP14v4kTIdDk3Q3RvYkdYc29yWjQwSGwxZmxPV 2c#gid=0

We have been also able to include on this spreadsheet the G1 samples from India and 2 new L13 samples, either from 1000 Genomes Project or Personal Genomes Project.

Constructing this was extremely time-consuming.

This sequencing produced in some segments lots of complicated insertions/deletions, and I do not think these are valid and can be used for anything. In addition, it produced a number of additional mutations in some areas in which no one has been able to test before. I do not think they can be used either. But overall there are about 1000 G-only SNPs that we can use out of the 1300 mutations reported.

Last night I somewhat duplicated the process used in a recent Wei study of Y SNP mutations. They calculated the length of existence of G since the separation from haplogroup F as 46,000 years. Due to the absence of a similarly sequenced sample from another L140 branch we cannot exactly duplicate the Wei methodology. But in the areas of the Y which Wei identified as the most reliable, there an average of 460 G-only mutations noted. Of these 143 were SNPs shared by Z724 men and an average 22 SNPs not shared with anyone. Using proportions, this suggests Z724 (and probably sister groups U1/L13) existed as small family groups for about 14,300 years and that each of the three Z724 subgroups split from Z724 about 2200 yrs ago. This is the most accurate age calculation ever made about these subgroups. And this 2200 yrs corresponds to a genetic distance of 19 at 167 markers for each comparison among the three samples. This is the first time that 67 markers have been used to compare with SNP calculations. The 67 markers in earlier periods are much more unpredictable as hidden mutations diminish the ability of markers to predict ages in comparisons.

To put this in better context, L140 subgroups account for about 80% of European G persons. And the three tested Z724 men each represent discrete Z424 subgroups which account for about 60% of Z724 men.

I expected that the results from the Z724 men would show some distinct branching, one from the other. But this indicates that there was almost simultaneous branching about 2000 or so years ago from a small family group. The Ashkenazi Jewish subgroup is one of these branches...

ADW_1981
02-23-2013, 03:36 AM
These are some very interesting points Humanist. Shortly after the Hittite kingdoms fall, suddenly the Celts appear in Central Europe with Iron working technology. Perhaps it was one of these Hittite lineages which sprung L51-> L11 and finally U106/P312 in Central Europe- note the western like appearance of the Alawite/Assyrian modal. It's also strange that Gauls from France and western Germany would bypass most of Europe and invade the exact same territory where the Hittites once held their territory about 1000 years earlier. A culture so heavily based on oral history may have maintained this kind of information.

If this were the case, it's possible that other early PIE speakers such as Mycenaeans, Lydians, Phrygians, Armenians may have sprung from the DYS393=12 branches of R1b, rather than the L23* with DYS393=13 that appears among Assyrians, which as you noted were heavy traders with the Hittites specifically.

Adding to all that, note that the Albanian cluster also shares the L23* DYS393=13 characteristic with western Europeans, and also has some linguistic similarities with Italo-Celtic branch if I am not mistaken.

Humanist
02-23-2013, 05:59 AM
These are some very interesting points Humanist. Shortly after the Hittite kingdoms fall, suddenly the Celts appear in Central Europe with Iron working technology. Perhaps it was one of these Hittite lineages which sprung L51-> L11 and finally U106/P312 in Central Europe- note the western like appearance of the Alawite/Assyrian modal. It's also strange that Gauls from France and western Germany would bypass most of Europe and invade the exact same territory where the Hittites once held their territory about 1000 years earlier. A culture so heavily based on oral history may have maintained this kind of information.

If this were the case, it's possible that other early PIE speakers such as Mycenaeans, Lydians, Phrygians, Armenians may have sprung from the DYS393=12 branches of R1b, rather than the L23* with DYS393=13 that appears among Assyrians, which as you noted were heavy traders with the Hittites specifically.

Adding to all that, note that the Albanian cluster also shares the L23* DYS393=13 characteristic with western Europeans, and also has some linguistic similarities with Italo-Celtic branch if I am not mistaken.

There is a good deal of evidence pointing to significant Indo-European influence, if not actual presence in northwestern Mesopotamian lands in the late Bronze Age and Iron Age. I have several posts on the subject on another forum. The forum is down now, but when it is back up, I will provide links here to the relevant posts. There are two posts of particular interest. One has to do with the dynasty established by the son of Ili-pada, grand vizier of Assyria, viceroy of Hanigalbat (Mitanni).



Recent excavation at Tell Sabi Abyad in Syria has exposed a very substantial part of a Middle Assyrian fortified farmstead or dunnu, dated ca. 1225-1120 BCE. From its foundation early in the reign of Tukulti-Ninurta I, the dunnu was maintained by a number of high-ranking officials affiliated with the Assyrian royal house and each bearing the titles of “grand vizier” and “king of Ḫanigalbat”: successively, Aššur-iddin, Šulmānu-mušabši and Ilī-padâ.

An extraordinarily rich cremation which dates somewhere between 1180-1140 BCE (building level 4) and which must be associated with the local administration at the site...

A Sealed Double Cremation at Middle Assyrian Tell Sabi Abyad, Syria

Peter Akkermans & E. Smits (2008)

In: D. Bonatz, R.M. Czichon & F.J. Kreppner (eds.) Fundstellen – Gesammelte Schriften zur Archäologie und Geschichte Altvorderasiens ad honorem Hartmut Kühne. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag (2008), pp. 251-261.

There was a lion-skin cloak placed on the funeral pyre, bear claws as well, and a beautiful horse and foal cylinder-seal impression. The seal of Ilī-padâ himself featured a horse. And, as I mentioned above, this is also very interesting:

Wikipedia


Two of his [Ili-pada] sons were to follow him in attaining high office. Mardukija became governor of Katmuḫi and served his term as limmu early, during the reign of Aššur-dan I, his nephew and Ilī-padâ’s grandson. Ninurta-apal-Ekur, after a period stationed in Babylonia, presumably on official business, was to triumph in his campaign to succeed Enlil-kudurri-usur as Assyrian King, thereby establishing a royal line that endured until at least the eighth century.

The Assyrian King's list, beginning with Ili-pada's son:


Ninurta-apal-Ekur (1182 BCE to 1180 BCE) --> Ashur-dan I --> Ninurta-tukultī-Aššur --> Mutakkil-Nusku --> Ashur-resh-ishi I --> Tiglath-Pileser I --> Asharid-apal-Ekur --> Assur-bel-kala --> Eriba-Adad II --> Shamshi-Adad IV --> Ashurnasirpal I --> Shalmaneser II --> Ashur-nirari IV --> Ashur-rabi II --> Ashur-resh-ishi II --> Tiglath-Pileser II --> Ashur-dan II --> Adad-nirari II --> Tukulti-Ninurta II --> Ashurnasirpal II --> Shalmaneser III --> Shamshi-Adad V --> Adad-nirari III --> Shalmaneser IV --> Ashur-dan III --> Ashur-nirari V (755 BCE to 745 BCE). The line is broken by Tiglath-Pileser III.

And, bits from the second of the two posts that specifically came to mind:


The Assyrian cremation sites I have come across so far, "A" through "E," and the possible location of Washukanni (Tell el Fakhariya), "F."

Middle Assyrian
A. Tell Sabi Abyad (Middle Assyrian Administration?)

Neo-Assyrian
B. Ziyaret Tepe (Neo-Assyrian Administration?)
C. ~ Kavusan Höyük (?)
D. Carchemish (?)
E. Dur-Katlimmu (?)

Sites "B" and "C" are located close to each other.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Mitanni
F. Tell el Fakhariya (Washukanni?) <-- Not cremation. For comparison to the location of the Assyrian cremation sites.

Wikipedia


Washukanni (or Waššukanni) was the capital of the Hurrian kingdom of Mitanni, from c. 1500 BC to the 13th century BC. Its precise location is unknown, it may be however located under the so-far unexcavated mound of Tell el Fakhariya, near Tell Halaf in Syria, to the east of the Euphrates river.[citation needed]

The city is known to have been sacked by the Hittites under Suppiluliumas I (reigned c.1344–1322 BC) in the first years of his reign, whose treaty inscription[1] relates that he installed a Hurrian vassal king, Shattiwaza. The city was sacked again by the Assyrian king Adad-nirari I around 1290 BC, but very little else is known of its history.


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/cremations_mit.jpg

^^ Points "G" and "H" are also Assyrian cremation sites. Will update with the details once the forum has returned, and I can access all the posts.

Silesian
02-25-2013, 06:12 PM
Wikipedia



Incidentally (or perhaps not), the Alawites and Druze display the highest frequencies of R-M269 in the Levant. Also, I find it odd that the Turkish authorities, in an attempt to conceal the "Arab" origin of the Alawites, chose "Hittite." Why Hittite? I do not mean to suggest that the Turkish authorities were privy to something that could link the Alawites to the Hittites, but perhaps they chose "Hittite" because the Alawite communities had long been established in that region.

Maybe the Druze and Alawites are not originally from traditional Levant or Arabic region?

1 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056775

To compare 2 markers found in Europe R1-L23/R1a-M458 and your observation about Arab origins; the following can be observed in the recent report linked above.
European R1b is dominated by R-M269; [by extension L23 is one branch lower]. While R1a1a1b1 is also found in- M458 [Central Europe]

2http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28822&d=1361801265

R1b1a2a2: L23+ drops dramatically when compared to R1a1a1b1- M458 Turkey/Anatolia/Caucausus and is found in lower frequencies by almost 78/22 margin in the following comparison. 1.35%/4.85%

R1b/L23-17.37%-Turkey+Caucasus
R1b/L23-1.62%-Arabian Peninsula (including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Yemen, Oman and Dubai),
R1b/L23-1.09%-Levant (containing samples from Jordan, Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon),

combined 2.71% or an average 1.355% in Semitic speaking regions


R1a-M458-15.54%-Turkey+Caucasus
R1a-M458-6.31%-Arabian Peninsula (including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Yemen, Oman and Dubai),
R1a-M458-3.39%-Levant (containing samples from Jordan, Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon),

Combined 9.7% or an average of 4.85% in Semitic speaking regions

More or less 78%-R1a to 22%-R1b in Levant and Arabian Peninsula

Humanist
02-26-2013, 03:39 AM
Maybe the Druze and Alawites are not originally from traditional Levant or Arabic region?

It is not unreasonable to speculate that a significant portion of the Druze and Alawite genomes are of non-Arabian origin. Some Druze lived as far north as Aleppo just a few centuries ago. What is today SC Turkey/NW Syria is a good distance from traditional Arabian lands.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/ancient_east.jpg

Silesian
02-26-2013, 06:31 AM
It is not unreasonable to speculate that a significant portion of the Druze and Alawite genomes are of non-Arabian origin. Some Druze lived as far north as Aleppo just a few centuries ago. What is today SC Turkey/NW Syria is a good distance from traditional Arabian lands.
Nice map.

We can compare the two studies.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056775 sample set for Levant (containing samples from Jordan, Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon), 2741N

% Assyrian N=100 (Jan. 25, 2013)http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056775Researc h Article % 2741 N
23%-R1b-1.09% or 29
20% J1-30.83% or 845
14% T-3.98% or 109
14% J2-21.05% or 576
9% E1b1b1-17.22% or 472
9% G-5.47% or 149
4% R2a-.47% or 12
3% Q1b-1.2% or 32
2% R1a-3.39% or 106
1% F-0.15% or 4
1% L-3.43% or 94

In this study of 2741 samples taken in Levant (containing samples from Jordan, Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon). Ydna F, R2A and R1b L23 scored the lowest>0.15%_0.47%_1.09%

ADW_1981
02-26-2013, 08:19 PM
Maybe the Druze and Alawites are not originally from traditional Levant or Arabic region?

1 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056775

To compare 2 markers found in Europe R1-L23/R1a-M458 and your observation about Arab origins; the following can be observed in the recent report linked above.
European R1b is dominated by R-M269; [by extension L23 is one branch lower]. While R1a1a1b1 is also found in- M458 [Central Europe]

2http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28822&d=1361801265

R1b1a2a2: L23+ drops dramatically when compared to R1a1a1b1- M458 Turkey/Anatolia/Caucausus and is found in lower frequencies by almost 78/22 margin in the following comparison. 1.35%/4.85%

R1b/L23-17.37%-Turkey+Caucasus
R1b/L23-1.62%-Arabian Peninsula (including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Yemen, Oman and Dubai),
R1b/L23-1.09%-Levant (containing samples from Jordan, Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon),

combined 2.71% or an average 1.355% in Semitic speaking regions


R1a-M458-15.54%-Turkey+Caucasus
R1a-M458-6.31%-Arabian Peninsula (including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Yemen, Oman and Dubai),
R1a-M458-3.39%-Levant (containing samples from Jordan, Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon),

Combined 9.7% or an average of 4.85% in Semitic speaking regions

More or less 78%-R1a to 22%-R1b in Levant and Arabian Peninsula

R1a-M458 is nowhere near those levels in Caucasus or Middle East, remember this was previously linked to Slavic expansion, or if nothing else at least to East Europeans mostly. To the best of my knowledge R1a-L342 is the kind mostly found in Persia, India, and Arabia. R1b-L23 is rare in Arabia, but its older cousin R1b1c-V88 reaches moderate frequency in Arabia and seems to have originated in the Levant or North Africa.

Humanist
02-28-2013, 01:24 AM
Most of the 68-111 Y-STR results for our L584 (L943+) man, Kit No: 205749 are now in. One panel still to be reported.

(68-75)
35 15 9 16 12 26 26 17
(86-93)
11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10
(94-102)
23 15 20 12 23 17 12 16 25
(103-111)
12 23 18 10 14 16 8 11 11

Some possible markers of interest.

L584 men
DYS717 = 17
DYS434 = 8 (All other men in the "ht35" project have 9 or 10 at this marker)

A few others that may be of some significance. Need more men in L584 to test beyond the standard 67.
DYS712 = 23
DYS532 = 12
DYS510 = 16

The results are now complete. At least one appears very interesting.

(76-85)
11 11 13 13 10 9 11 12 10 11

Other L584 Men
DYS505=12
DYS589=12 (And, all other men in the ht35 project, save for one, who has 11 at this marker.)

205749
DYS505=11
DYS589=13

Silesian
02-28-2013, 06:15 AM
R1a-M458 is nowhere near those levels in Caucasus or Middle East, remember this was previously linked to Slavic expansion, or if nothing else at least to East Europeans mostly. To the best of my knowledge R1a-L342 is the kind mostly found in Persia, India, and Arabia. R1b-L23 is rare in Arabia, but its older cousin R1b1c-V88 reaches moderate frequency in Arabia and seems to have originated in the Levant or North Africa.

It looks like a mistake has been made, either I'm reading it wrong or it should not be there.
R1a1-M420,M17,M198,M204,M458
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056775

The samples are below are M458-.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Arabia/default.aspx?section=ysnp


1. Old European (DYS392=13) ("C"/"OE")
M17+, M198+, M417-
R1a1a

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?section=results

Humanist
03-04-2013, 12:37 AM
Here are the GDs for the L584 men with 111 markers tested. Hybrid mutation model. Three men of Armenian ancestry, one Assyrian, and one Ukrainian man.


XXXX UKR1 ARM1 ARM2 ARM3 ASY1
UKR1 111 45 34 39 38
ARM1 45 111 36 33 34
ARM2 34 36 111 34 38
ARM3 39 33 34 111 37
ASY1 38 34 38 37 111

Humanist
03-05-2013, 04:28 AM
Thanks for sharing, Humanist. This is pretty interesting. The high frequency of T and R1b is remarkable for the Middle East. It is a little bit early to ask for that but do you see any regional/religious clustering within the Assyrian community?

Although it is early, and the information regarding members of the Chaldean Catholic and Syriac Orthodox churches are minimal, I do anticipate potentially significant differences. There is significant intra-Nestorian variety, so, I expect the same the further the lines are removed from the three major churches. With greater differences between Orthodox and Chaldean Catholic/"Nestorian." As for "Nestorians," I have identified three major paternal groups (the labels are for fun :) ):

1. R1b-L584 "Smiths"

2. J1-Z1842 "Clergy"

3. T1-PS21 "???"

Humanist
03-05-2013, 05:37 AM
Regarding the Syriac Orthodox. I should have mentioned one thing that has caught my eye. Among the handful (< 10) of Syriac Orthodox for whom we have Y-DNA results, two have come back as members of R2. As compared with two R2 "Nestorian" men out of a few dozen "Nestorians." It is too early to tell if it is of any significance, of course. But, interestingly, Iraqi and Iranian Jews both displayed high frequencies of "PQR2" in Behar et al. (2010), with 30% and 35% respectively. The user "Birko," from ABF is one of the two "Nestorians" with R2. Please see below for the relevant segment of one of Marko Heinila's 67 STR trees from 2012, with regard to Birko's haplotype ("Turkey"):

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Birko_R2_.jpg

AJL
03-05-2013, 05:19 PM
1. R1b-L584 "Smiths"

2. J1-Z1842 "Clergy"

3. T1-PS21 "???"

Since my L584 relatives were mainly tailors, with one a carpenter, another a cutter, and still another actually a blacksmith, they were clearly all used to handiwork of various kinds: so I rather like this designation!

Humanist
03-05-2013, 08:15 PM
Since my L584 relatives were mainly tailors, with one a carpenter, another a cutter, and still another actually a blacksmith, they were clearly all used to handiwork of various kinds: so I rather like this designation!

That is great, AJ. :) Thanks for the info.

This next post has relevance to you, considering your Y-DNA line. The Grugni et al. Y-DNA frequencies were, to say the least, a bit unexpected. Particularly considering that the communities in Iran are supposedly not that old (~1000 years, and perhaps 1500 years at the oldest), and Assyrians from Iran, including my grandmother (from Urmia), do not display atypical autosomal signatures (e.g. my grandmother's Eurogenes SPA point was near Baghdad and close to other Assyrians and Iraqi Mandaeans).

Assyrians of Urmia (n=39)
C3-M217 : 2.6%
Q1-P36.2 : 2.6%
Q1b1-M378 : 2.6% <-- Not atypical
R1*-M173 : 5.1%
R1a1a-M198 : 10.3%

Other populations in Grugni et al. displaying frequencies for the above haplogroups:
C3-M217 : Bandari, Mazandarani, Yazd-Zoroastrian
Q1-P36.2 : Rasan-Persian, Tehran-Zoroastrian
Q1b1-M378 : Azeri, Bandari, Gheshmi, Isfahan-Persian, Khorasan-Persian, Lur
R1*-M173 : Gilak, Bandari, Khorasan-Persian, Khuzestan-Arab, Kurdestan-Kurd, Baluch, Yazd-Persian
R1a1a-M198 : ALL populations except Tehran-Assyrian and Tehran-Zoroastrian.

The population appearing most often is Hormozgan-Bandari.

Hormozgan Province
353

Wikipedia

Hormozgan Province (Persian: استان هرمزگان‎, Ostān-e Hormozgān) is one of the 31 provinces of Iran. It is in the south of the country, facing Oman and UAE. Its area is 70,697 km2 (27,296 sq mi),[2] and its provincial capital is Bandar Abbas. The province has 14 islands located in the Persian Gulf, and 1,000 km (620 mi) of coastline.

Zoroastrians (Yazd/Tehran) are the most frequent with regard to the least common haplogroups.

EDIT: I forgot this!

R*-M207 : 2.6%

R*-M207 : Bandari, Khorasan-Persian, Mazandarani, Tehran-Armenian

Humanist
03-06-2013, 12:28 AM
There is a good deal of evidence pointing to significant Indo-European influence, if not actual presence in northwestern Mesopotamian lands in the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age.


A bit of truth in the myths of old?

Source: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu

Herodotus, The Histories
A. D. Godley, Ed.

1.7


Now the sovereign power that belonged to the descendants of Heracles fell to the family of Croesus, called the Mermnadae, in the following way. *Candaules, whom the Greeks call Myrsilus, was the ruler of Sardis; he was descended from Alcaeus, son of Heracles; Agron son of Ninus, son of Belus, son of Alcaeus, was the first Heraclid king of Sardis and Candaules son of Myrsus was the last. *The kings of this country before Agron were descendants of Lydus, son of Atys, from whom this whole Lydian district got its name; before that it was called the land of the Meii. *The Heraclidae, descendants of Heracles and a female slave of Iardanus, received the sovereignty from these and held it, because of an oracle; and they ruled for twenty-two generations, or five hundred and five years, son succeeding father, down to Candaules son of Myrsus.


Source: http://www.maicar.com/GML/HERACLIDES.html

Agron 2. Agron 2 is said to be the first of the HERACLIDES to become king of Sardes (Lydia) (see also Croesus). He is son of Ninus, the Assyrian who founded Nineveh. Ninus was son of Belus 3, son of Alcaeus 6, son of Heracles 1 and Omphale (Hdt.1.7).

Belus 3. Son of Alcaeus 6, son of Heracles 1 & Omphale. Belus 3, who is counted among the HERACLIDES, is also called father of Ninus, the founder of Nineveh and husband of Semiramis (see also Croesus) (Hdt.1.7).

Ninus. Son of Belus 3. Father of Agron 2. King of Assyria and founder of Nineveh. He was murdered by his wife Semiramis, founder and Queen of Babylonia (see also Croesus) (Dio.2.7.1; Hdt.1.7; Hyg.Fab.240; Ov.Met.4.88; Strab.2.1.31).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Map_of_Lydia_ancient_times.jpg/255px-Map_of_Lydia_ancient_times.jpg


Ht35 Y-Chromosome Haplotype in Europe (2013)

Lucotte G.
Dieterlen F.
Hrechdakian P. :)

According to the above Lucotte et al. paper, the old "ht35" haplotype is most frequent (23%), in Europe, in Calabria.

If anyone has anything to add to the Wikipedia bits below, feel free to do so.


Calabria was first settled by Italic Oscan-speaking tribes. Two of these tribes were the Oenotrians (roughly translated into the "vine-cultivators") and the Itali. Greek contact with the latter resulted in Calabria taking the name of the tribe and was the first region to be called Italy (Italia).[25] Greeks settled heavily along the coast at an early date and several of their settlements, including the first Italian city called Rhégion (Reggio di Calabria), and the next ones Sybaris, Kroton (Crotone), a settlement where the mathematician Pythagoras later resided, and Locri, were numbered among the leading cities of Magna Graecia during the 6th and 5th centuries BC.

The Greeks were conquered by the 3rd century BC by roving Oscan tribes from the north, including a branch of the Samnites called the Lucanians and an offshoot of the Lucanians called the Bruttii. The Bruttii conquered the Greek cities, established their sovereignty over present day Calabria and founded new cities, including their own capital, Cosenza (known as Consentia in the ancient times).

The Romans conquered the area in the 3rd century BC after the fierce Bruttian resistance, possibly the fiercest resistance the Romans had to face from another Italic people. At the beginning of the Roman Empire the region would form the Augustan Regio III Lucania et Bruttii of Roman Italy.

In the 1060s the Normans, under the leadership of Robert Guiscard's brother Roger, established a presence in this borderland, and organized a government along Byzantine lines that was run by the local Greek magnates of Calabria. In 1098, Roger named the equivalent of an apostolic legate by Pope Urban II, and later formed what became the Kingdom of Sicily. The administrative divisions created in the late medieval times were maintained right through to unification: Calabria Citeriore (or Latin Calabria) in the northern half and Calabria Ulteriore (or Greek Calabria) in the southern half. By the end of the Middle Ages, large parts of Calabria continued to speak Greek as their mother tongue.[26] During the 13th century a French chronicler who travelled through Calabria stated that “the peasants of Calabria spoke nothing but Greek”.[27] By the 15th and 16th centuries, the Greek spoken in Calabria was rapidly replaced by Latin, the dominant language of the Italian Peninsula through a process of Italianization.[28] Today, the last remnants of the Greek formerly spoken widely throughout Calabria can still be heard amongst the ethnically Greek Griko people of the Aspromonte mountains of southern Calabria.

Magna Grecia around 280 BC.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Magna_Graecia.jpg/220px-Magna_Graecia.jpg

Humanist
03-06-2013, 12:45 AM
Meant to add this bit to the above post:

And, to folks who, for whatever reason, believe that people who speak a Semitic language cannot have genetic similarities with people who speak Indo-European languages, please refer to our mtDNA and Y-DNA data.

newtoboard
03-06-2013, 01:23 PM
Meant to add this bit to the above post:

And, to folks who, for whatever reason, believe that people who speak a Semitic language cannot have genetic similarities with people who speak Indo-European languages, please refer to our mtDNA and Y-DNA data.

That similarity exists because your Indo-European neighbors(applies to most of Asia/Southern Europe probably) don't really possess much Indo-European ancestry. True Proto Indo-European ancestry is marked by high amounts of Y-DNA R1a, mtdnas U2e, U4, andU5 and high amounts of the Northern European Component all things which Semitic speakers lack at appreciable amounts.

AJL
03-06-2013, 03:26 PM
That similarity exists because your Indo-European neighbors(applies to most of Asia/Southern Europe probably) don't really possess much Indo-European ancestry. True Proto Indo-European ancestry is marked by high amounts of Y-DNA R1a, mtdnas U2e, U4, andU5 and high amounts of the Northern European Component all things which Semitic speakers lack at appreciable amounts.

That's putting the cart before the horse. What does "(Proto) Indo-European ancestry" mean exactly?

newtoboard
03-06-2013, 04:33 PM
That's putting the cart before the horse. What does "(Proto) Indo-European ancestry" mean exactly?

Steepe ancestry from IE times.

DMXX
03-06-2013, 04:48 PM
Steepe ancestry from IE times.

One fact is for certain; the presence of "Caucasoid-Mongoloid" hybrid humans bearing the mtDNA Haplogroups you mentioned were already present around the Eurasian steppe ( i.e. Ust-Tartas) around the time Proto-Indo-European is dated under comparative linguistics (4000 B.C.). All the mtDNA U subclades you specified were found amongst them.

I do not agree that mtDNA U2e, U4 and U5a1 should be taken as absolute indicators of prehistoric Indo-European genetic inheritance elsewhere. Much the same I do not agree that any haplogroup at low definition ("R1a", "L") should be fitted into a generalised historical, ethnic or linguistic paradigm.

There is much to the story we haven't deduced yet. I recall reading on another forum months ago including a link to an Indian news article stating archaeological remains in India dating to mesolithic times revealed skeletons consistent with the "proto-Europoid" anthropology descriptor. That could explain (if one momentarily presumes correlation between "proto-Europoid" morphology and the North European component) why the N. Euro component is significantly raised in India. It may well precede anything to do with the Indo-Europeans. If anyone knows of the news article I'm referring to, please share it with us.

Also, what do you even mean by "IE times"? If by this you mean the timeframe to which established branches of Indo-European languages reached West Asia, the matter of PIE ancestry may be viewed as a triviality considering the Indo-European pastoralists evidently mixed with practically every population they came across in Asia (Baikal aboriginals in Afanasievo, BMAC farmers).

The genetic overlap between Semitic and IE-speaking West Asians is undeniable. However, neither is the pull of the IE speakers to the east (Iranians scoring ~50% Tajik on autosomal runs) and Semitic speakers to the south (Assyrians scoring >15% Arabian). The linguistics clearly complement the genetics to a degree.

Humanist
03-06-2013, 08:38 PM
That similarity exists because your Indo-European neighbors(applies to most of Asia/Southern Europe probably) don't really possess much Indo-European ancestry. True Proto Indo-European ancestry is marked by high amounts of Y-DNA R1a, mtdnas U2e, U4, andU5 and high amounts of the Northern European Component all things which Semitic speakers lack at appreciable amounts.

I was referring to Hittites, Luwians, Greco-Macedonians, etc. Basically, East Med. Indo-Europeans.

DMXX
03-07-2013, 09:23 AM
Like Humanist pointed out, Assyrians and Southern Arabians have large quantities of y-dna R1a, yet lack northern european admix. Same with Indians, who lack European admix entirely.

This is true only in parts:

1) Both Assyrians and Arabian populations do not have very much Y-DNA R1a1a-M17 or North European peaking autosomal components. However, some of the Arabian R1a1a belongs to the L657 subclade which has registered hits in India also. Complicating matters further (isn't this the way of the world?) is the high frequency of R1a1a-M17 among Shammari bedouins living in Kuwait. Granted, the STR's indicated they had a common recent founder, one should not lump the entire Arabian peninsula into one category under genetic grounds as it completely glosses over the actual story.

2) Much the same applies to Indian populations, although R1a1a-M17 is seen across most of the country in varying frequencies. There is an apparent mismatch between the SNP and STR diversity however (practically all Indians to date belong to Z93 whereas they were frequently cited as an STR diversity "hotbed" in previous literature). I recall the Kashmiri Pandits scored over 70% R1a1a-M17 in Sharma et al., but this is a trivial fact (endogamous or bottlenecked groups will have skewed marker frequencies).

3) Indians do not lack European-peaking autosomal components. On the contrary, certain groups in the country (such as the Punjabi Jatts) have a surprisingly high frequency of the North European component (just surpassing 20% in one of the Dodecad/Eurogenes runs). If I recall correctly, this is greater than the score seen in Pathans and Central Asians, let alone Iranians and Kurds.

The topic of Assyrian R1a1a is an interesting one. Have the kits identified earlier in this thread been tested? Are they at all candidates for L657? What are their STR matching patterns like?

newtoboard
03-07-2013, 05:54 PM
You're letting your imagination run wild, because there is no Indo-European haplogroup or "component". Like Humanist pointed out, Assyrians and Southern Arabians have large quantities of y-dna R1a, yet lack northern european admix. Same with Indians, who lack European admix entirely.

Not sure where Indians lack European admix. Northern European admix is found as far as Bengal and South India. I don't need to even talk about the Northwest.

Also where did Assyrians and Arabs get their R1a from? All of it mostly Z93+ and very likely got it from a IIndic or ranian speaking population given how often Iran has ruled Mesopotamia and how many Gujaratis and Balochis have trade links with Arabia.


This is true only in parts:

1) Both Assyrians and Arabian populations do not have very much Y-DNA R1a1a-M17 or North European peaking autosomal components. However, some of the Arabian R1a1a belongs to the L657 subclade which has registered hits in India also. Complicating matters further (isn't this the way of the world?) is the high frequency of R1a1a-M17 among Shammari bedouins living in Kuwait. Granted, the STR's indicated they had a common recent founder, one should not lump the entire Arabian peninsula into one category under genetic grounds as it completely glosses over the actual story.

2) Much the same applies to Indian populations, although R1a1a-M17 is seen across most of the country in varying frequencies. There is an apparent mismatch between the SNP and STR diversity however (practically all Indians to date belong to Z93 whereas they were frequently cited as an STR diversity "hotbed" in previous literature). I recall the Kashmiri Pandits scored over 70% R1a1a-M17 in Sharma et al., but this is a trivial fact (endogamous or bottlenecked groups will have skewed marker frequencies).

3) Indians do not lack European-peaking autosomal components. On the contrary, certain groups in the country (such as the Punjabi Jatts) have a surprisingly high frequency of the North European component (just surpassing 20% in one of the Dodecad/Eurogenes runs). If I recall correctly, this is greater than the score seen in Pathans and Central Asians, let alone Iranians and Kurds.
The topic of Assyrian R1a1a is an interesting one. Have the kits identified earlier in this thread been tested? Are they at all candidates for L657? What are their STR matching patterns like?

20% is a bit high of an estimate. It is somewhere between 12-20% although some Jatts do exceed that. I think one of the Harynavi Jatt samples had it as 29%.

Humanist
03-07-2013, 09:34 PM
Assyrians...do not have very much Y-DNA R1a1a-M17 or North European peaking autosomal components.

This is true. Based on the data I have gathered (N=100), the R1a frequency is 2%.

Humanist
03-07-2013, 10:53 PM
Also, how can you be so certain that people in the past were not a mix of components and haplogroups just as they are today? I'd appreciate your feedback, thanks. The topic is a fascinating one. :)

I imagine they were a mix of components. What exactly those components were, how distribution of components varied within a particular society (e.g. elite v. "pleb"), and their relationship to modern peoples, with only limited aDNA (and zero autosomal aDNA from the greater Middle East), requires a good deal of conjecture at this point, unfortunately.

Here is an interesting blog post by DMXX on the autosomal differences, based on Harappa project data, between two Indo-Iranian speaking groups (Iranians and Kurds), and two non-Indo-Iranian speaking groups (Armenians and Assyrians): Example #2: West Asians (http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/2012_08_01_archive.html)

DMXX
03-07-2013, 11:16 PM
So, you're saying that 2-6% Northern European component in Indians is responsible for some of the highest concentrations of R1a?


I am stating what the data shows and not linking the two absolutely - Certain Indian ethnic groups and/or regions have substantial frequencies of both Y-DNA R1a1a and North European autosomal components. Every project thus far has shown this (even Xing et al. did). The matter of debate is not regarding their presence, but how the current picture came to be.



Also, how can you be so certain that people in the past were not a mix of components and haplogroups just as they are today? I'd appreciate your feedback, the topic is a fascinating one.

I am not certain at all that people in the past were not a mix of components and haplogroups. In fact, I have no firm opinion on the matter given the deficiency in data across Eurasia. The situation in the steppes regarding R1a1a, Q and C does not convince me because nomadic splinter groups from a main continental body are bound to show some signs of genetic drift in their frequencies.

newtoboard
03-08-2013, 03:28 PM
So, you're saying that 2-6% Northern European component in Indians is responsible for some of the highest concentrations of R1a?

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Southern-Indian_575.png
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Western-Indian_575.png
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Eastern-Indian_575.png
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Northern-Indian_575.png

Source: https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/


Also, how can you be so certain that people in the past were not a mix of components and haplogroups just as they are today? I'd appreciate your feedback, the topic is a fascinating one.

I wouldn't rely on those graphs too much. Northeast Asian for the Northern Indian probably absorbed some N Euro. Also no way are West and South Indians more Southwest Asian than North Indians. Those Mediterranean vales seem inflated. They used Southeast Asian as a representation of ASI.

Also Indians aren't homegenous. Some Northenr groups might be 20% North Euro when a another Northern group might be 6% North Euro and South Indian group might be -% North Euro. Also Northern Euro doesn't exactly correspond to R1a given than North Indian groups got their R1a from Northern European groups admixed with West Asian groups and people further in India got their R1a from NW Indian like people. This is the reason why the North Euro component is variable in India. In Iran proto Iranian groups gave their language to the population directly imo while in South Asia most people got their language from a NW Indian like group.

Silesian
03-08-2013, 06:03 PM
This is true. Based on the data I have gathered (N=100), the R1a frequency is 2%.

Humanist out of curiosity are any of the Assyrian R1b-Z2105 samples similar to Moldovian/Bulgarian/Ukrainian/Bashkir,Kazakstan/Pashtun/Indian subcontinent samples?
I just added a 23andme user from Uttar Pradesh, India who is R1a, sharing a 5cM segment on the 4 chromosome, but I think he is Z93 even though I'm R-Z2105 I cluster with and share with Z-283.

358
359
360

Humanist
03-09-2013, 04:27 AM
Humanist out of curiosity are any of the Assyrian R1b-Z2105 samples similar to Moldovian/Bulgarian/Ukrainian/Bashkir,Kazakstan/Pashtun/Indian subcontinent samples?
I just added a 23andme user from Uttar Pradesh, India who is R1a, sharing a 5cM segment on the 4 chromosome, but I think he is Z93 even though I'm R-Z2105 I cluster with and share with Z-283.

Hi, Silesian. I have only compared Assyrian Z2105 men to Kazakhs. I also included data from Druze and Alawites in the comparison.


-------------------------------------------------

The Kazakhstan DNA project hits first hundred Y-profiles for ethnic Kazakhs (http://rjgg.org/index.php/RJGG/article/view/113/128)

The Russian Journal of Genetic Genealogy: Vol 2, №1, 2011

Also see: http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5221

I do not know if the Kazakh R1b lines are SNP confirmed.


Kazakh
13 19 14 11 13 13 12 12 14 14 13 30 : R1b1b1->kypshak-> karabalyk
13 19 14 11 13 13 12 12 13 14 13 30 : R1b1b1->kypshak-> kara-kypshak
13 19 14 11 13 13 12 12 14 14 13 30 : R1b1b1->unknown
13 19 14 11 13 13 12 12 14 14 13 31 : R1b1b1->argyn->kuandyk->altay
12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 : R1b1b2->tore-> Tore-tolengut
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 13 12 14 13 30 : R1b1b2a1b->kypshak ->tory-kypshak

Assyrian R-M269 modal haplotype (FTDNA)
13-24-14-10-11-14-12-12-12-14-13-30

Alawite R-M269 modal and secondary haplotype (Dönbak et al.)
13-24-14-11-11-15-xx-xx-xx-14-13-30
13-24-14-11-11-15-xx-xx-xx-13-13-29

Druze R-M269 modal and secondary haplotype (Shlush et al.)
13-24-14-11-xx-xx-12-12-xx-13-13-29
12-24-14-11-xx-xx-12-12-xx-13-13-29

ADW_1981
03-09-2013, 01:54 PM
Humanist, I can pretty much confirm those Kazakh lines have nothing to do with the Near Eastern one.
The Kazakh haplotypes are exactly what they say R1b1b1, and a single L23 "Tore" (Genghis Khan descendant) which doesn't mean much. The last guy is the U152 Kypchack guy who was tested a number of years back. We already know there is a U152 branch that introgressed into Turkic tribes, even though we know its origin is likely around Switzerland someplace.

As far as I am concerned R1b has nothing to do with Central Asia, at least not in origin. R1b1b1 and some other branches may have moved in later.

For additional information:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b1/default.aspx?section=yresults

There is also another R1b1b1 English who has joined the R1b project who belongs to the A cluster. I originally thought he was going to be R1b1c.


Hi, Silesian. I have only compared Assyrian Z2105 men to Kazakhs. I also included data from Druze and Alawites in the comparison.


-------------------------------------------------

The Kazakhstan DNA project hits first hundred Y-profiles for ethnic Kazakhs (http://rjgg.org/index.php/RJGG/article/view/113/128)

The Russian Journal of Genetic Genealogy: Vol 2, №1, 2011

Also see: http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5221

I do not know if the Kazakh R1b lines are SNP confirmed.


Kazakh
13 19 14 11 13 13 12 12 14 14 13 30 : R1b1b1->kypshak-> karabalyk
13 19 14 11 13 13 12 12 13 14 13 30 : R1b1b1->kypshak-> kara-kypshak
13 19 14 11 13 13 12 12 14 14 13 30 : R1b1b1->unknown
13 19 14 11 13 13 12 12 14 14 13 31 : R1b1b1->argyn->kuandyk->altay
12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 : R1b1b2->tore-> Tore-tolengut
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 13 12 14 13 30 : R1b1b2a1b->kypshak ->tory-kypshak

Assyrian R-M269 modal haplotype (FTDNA)
13-24-14-10-11-14-12-12-12-14-13-30

Alawite R-M269 modal and secondary haplotype (Dönbak et al.)
13-24-14-11-11-15-xx-xx-xx-14-13-30
13-24-14-11-11-15-xx-xx-xx-13-13-29

Druze R-M269 modal and secondary haplotype (Shlush et al.)
13-24-14-11-xx-xx-12-12-xx-13-13-29
12-24-14-11-xx-xx-12-12-xx-13-13-29

Silesian
03-09-2013, 03:45 PM
Humanist, I can pretty much confirm those Kazakh lines have nothing to do with the Near Eastern one....

Sena Karachanak equal contributor,Viola Grugni equal contributor, et al

"the eastern branch of the western Eurasian R-M269 haplogroup [37], relates the paternal ancestry of 5.2% of Bulgarians, representing nearly half of the M269 derived Y chromosomes"

"The network of Hg R-L23* is characterized by multiple reticulations, which confirm that this haplogroup includes sub-clades yet to be discovered"

"locate the most ancient presence of this lineage in the Circum-Pontic region, where similar estimates, coinciding with the post-glacial period, are registered: 16.8±7 kya in Eastern Bulgaria, 14.3±1 kya in Romania, 14.0±3 kya in the Caucasus and 13.6±2 kya in Anatolia. We abstain from premature conclusions on the coalescent estimate in Eastern Bulgaria since a significant portion of this value derives from a very different singleton haplotype whose exclusion substantially decreases the age estimate to 9.3±4 kya."

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056779

How do you know what questions to ask if you don't even know the sequence of sub-clades?

Humanist
03-10-2013, 10:53 AM
Thanks to Silesian for mentioning Mjost's PDF on another forum. Did not realize that the new Bulgarian study includes previously unpublished Y-STR data from Iraq, from Nadia Al-Zahery.

Two display the Assyrian modal across the limited number of STRs reported. Another one matches a speculative Assyrian R-L277 man.


12 23 12 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 14 28
12 24 14 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 14 28
12 24 14 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 15 28
12 24 15 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 14 28
12 24 14 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 13 29
12 24 14 12 xx xx xx xx xx 13 13 29
12 24 15 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 13 29
12 23 14 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 13 30
12 23 15 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 13 30
12 25 14 10 xx xx xx xx xx 13 13 30
13 24 14 10 xx xx xx xx xx 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 xx xx xx xx xx 14 13 30

Silesian
03-10-2013, 11:08 PM
Thanks to Silesian for mentioning Mjost's PDF on another forum. Did not realize that the new Bulgarian study includes previously unpublished Y-STR data from Iraq, from Nadia Al-Zahery.

Two display the Assyrian modal across the limited number of STRs reported. Another one matches a speculative Assyrian R-L277 man.


12 23 12 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 14 28
12 24 14 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 14 28
12 24 14 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 15 28
12 24 15 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 14 28
12 24 14 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 13 29
12 24 14 12 xx xx xx xx xx 13 13 29
12 24 15 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 13 29
12 23 14 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 13 30
12 23 15 11 xx xx xx xx xx 13 13 30
12 25 14 10 xx xx xx xx xx 13 13 30
13 24 14 10 xx xx xx xx xx 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 xx xx xx xx xx 14 13 30

Can you give a general idea in the geographic region the Assyrian samples were from, ie traditional Assyrian homeland, Ashur/Arbela?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Map_of_Assyria.png

Also the breakdown ratio of L277/L584

Humanist
03-10-2013, 11:34 PM
Can you give a general idea in the geographic region the Assyrian samples were from, ie traditional Assyrian homeland, Ashur/Arbela?

Also the breakdown ratio of L277/L584

I do not know how many, of if any of the Iraqi samples are ethnic Assyrians. What I can tell you is that the R-L584 "Smiths" have an oral tradition of coming from Arbil, several centuries ago. Incidentally, so do men in the J1-Z1842 "Clergy" group. If I had to guess, Arbil was the "Nestorian" epicenter in the 1st millennium CE. As compared to the Nineveh Plains, which was probably the heartland of the folks who broke away from the Church of the East and became the Chaldean Catholics of today.

Humanist
04-23-2013, 10:09 PM
N=104 (April 23, 2013)
25% R1b
19% J1
13% T
13% J2
9% E1b1b1
9% G
5% R2a
3% Q1b
2% R1a
1% F
1% L

Silesian
04-24-2013, 04:50 AM
N=104 (April 23, 2013)
25% R1b
19% J1
13% T
13% J2
9% E1b1b1
9% G
5% R2a
3% Q1b
2% R1a
1% F
1% L

Nice work. Is it possible you can break down the entire list further into specific snp's, for example R1b L277? L584? or other, G1*?

Humanist
04-29-2013, 10:08 AM
Nice work. Is it possible you can break down the entire list further into specific snp's, for example R1b L277? L584? or other, G1*?

Thank you for the kind words. Will have to get back to you on that.

UPDATE. Adding two haplogroup T men.

N=106 04/29/13
24.5% R1b
18.9% J1
15.1% T
13.2% J2
8.5% E1b1b1
8.5% G
4.7% R2a
2.8% Q1b
1.9% R1a
0.9% F
0.9% L

Humanist
05-08-2013, 08:53 PM
Requested by a member. Not many of the Assyrian R1b men are tested through 67 markers. All R-L23 Assyrians tested through 67 markers were included below:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/RL23_Assyrian.jpg

Humanist
05-08-2013, 09:19 PM
Nice work. Is it possible you can break down the entire list further into specific snp's, for example R1b L277? L584? or other, G1*?

G1 is only myself and a man from Iraq. So, ~2%.

A couple of analyses of my haplotype:

From one of Palisto's 111 STR analyses:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/palisto_g_111_.jpg


From one of Marko's 111 STR trees:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/g1_111.jpg

annihilus
05-15-2013, 05:37 PM
I see, thanks for your explanation. I totally respect the oral/writtern traditions of your and Annihilus' family, however, I remain skeptical, especially when it stretches many, many centuries in the Middle East.

Why would you be skeptical? I am only second generation male born in Turkey, before that Ottoman Greece and before that Crimean Khanate. So definitively north of the Black Sea.

I tested + for F1345, going for CTS6 now

Humanist
08-09-2013, 03:28 AM
N=110 08/08/13
25.5% R1b
18.2% J1
16.4% T
12.7% J2
8.2% E1b1b1
8.2% G
4.5% R2a
2.7% Q1b
1.8% R1a
0.9% F
0.9% L

alan
08-09-2013, 04:12 AM
Any theories about how and when Assyrians gained their high L23 count. My own pet theory is that it came south along the trade lines between Maykop, north Iran and the Uruk expansion group around 3500BC not long after the clade came into existence. From there is became part of the Mesopotamian population


N=110 08/08/13
25.5% R1b
18.2% J1
16.4% T
12.7% J2
8.2% E1b1b1
8.2% G
4.5% R2a
2.7% Q1b
1.8% R1a
0.9% F
0.9% L

Humanist
08-13-2013, 07:22 PM
Any theories about how and when Assyrians gained their high L23 count. My own pet theory is that it came south along the trade lines between Maykop, north Iran and the Uruk expansion group around 3500BC not long after the clade came into existence. From there is became part of the Mesopotamian population

My opinion is that it may be more recent, perhaps no older than ~3500 years ago (~1500 BCE), and may be associated with the emergence of Mitanni-Hurrians and the Middle Assyrians. Despite their claims of continuity, the Middle Assyrians were not necessarily the descendants of the "Old Assyrians." However, there is reason to believe that the Neo Assyrians were the descendants of the Middle Assyrians. Well, at least as far as their royals are concerned.

Humanist
08-18-2013, 07:02 PM
N=110 08/08/13
25.5% R1b
18.2% J1
16.4% T
12.7% J2
8.2% E1b1b1
8.2% G
4.5% R2a
2.7% Q1b
1.8% R1a
0.9% F
0.9% L

Comparing our R2a frequency with the R2a (R-M124) frequencies that I calculated below, from the data reported in Cinnioglu et al. (2004) (http://genetics.stanford.edu/hpgl/publications/HG_2004_v114_p127-148.pdf), for what is today the modern state of Turkey. If no frequency is listed, the frequency for that "region" is 0.0%.

Of course, this area has witnessed significant demographic upheavals over the last many centuries, so frequencies may not be particularly informative.

Region 1 - 1.9%
Region 2 - 3.4%
Region 5 - 4.7%
Region 7 - 1.1%

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/turkey_cinnioglu_map_re.jpg

Silesian
08-18-2013, 07:32 PM
My opinion is that it may be more recent, perhaps no older than ~3500 years ago (~1500 BCE), and may be associated with the emergence of Mitanni-Hurrians and the Middle Assyrians. Despite their claims of continuity, the Middle Assyrians were not necessarily the descendants of the "Old Assyrians." However, there is reason to believe that the Neo Assyrians were the descendants of the Middle Assyrians. Well, at least as far as their royals are concerned.

Assyrians have quite a interesting history. Plus Grugni's data showing elevated R1b L23 and low J1c3 among Assyrians; is there any pattern? Could the ancient Assyrian army have been comprised of 20%-30% R1b L23X51, in the conquest of Samaria and deportation of groups into Mede lands?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_captivity_of_Israel
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Deportation_of_Jews_by_Assyrians.svg

Humanist
08-18-2013, 08:26 PM
Assyrians have quite a interesting history. Plus Grugni's data showing elevated R1b L23 and low J1c3 among Assyrians; is there any pattern? Could the ancient Assyrian army have been comprised of 20%-30% R1b L23X51...

I think it is possible. Some folks may not realize that before Assyria became "Assyria," under Aššur-uballiṭ I, this was the reality:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yETyYFvTQz0/Tpq8AFK3_rI/AAAAAAAADOQ/FChiSMSCGVA/s1600/11-2-Imperio+de+Mitanni1.gif


Regarding the Assyrian J1c3 frequencies. Those are probably all, or mostly "Nestorians" in Grugni et al. However, J1c3 is more frequent than J1* among Assyrians of the Syriac Orthodox Church (academia's so-called "West Syrians"). This is not the situation in the east (i.e. J1-P58 < J1*), however. The situation in the east, interestingly, is contrary to what we observe in Iran (i.e. J1-P58 > J1*) among some populations, according to certain data presented by DMXX (?), based on a previously published paper, over at the old DNA Forums. Correct me if I am wrong, DMXX.

The "West Syrians" are not exactly "western Syrian." See below, for the YHRD "matches" (purple spots) of the most recently tested (late 2012) J1-P58 Assyrian of the Syriac Orthodox Church. The "Syriac Orthodox" autosomal spot is based on Palisto's mapping of Dodecad admix data.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/orthodox_j1p58.jpg

Silesian
08-20-2013, 06:18 PM
I think it is possible....

Thanks, I don't know if that is a good thing or bad considering the prowess of the Assyrian army[light humor]. I noticed in the Grugni study 0% J1c3 both clusters of Assyrians, as well as Armenians . However according to tradition some Samarian captives were transplanted to Mede territories [Gilaki and or Lur's] is this possible? Can you go into depth of frequency J1* compared to J1c3 in the entire region? Is there an inverse relation between Assyrian East R1b[elevated]/J1*[elevated] and Assyrian West R1b[low]/J1c3[elevated]?

Humanist
08-20-2013, 10:37 PM
Thanks, I don't know if that is a good thing or bad considering the prowess of the Assyrian army[light humor]. I noticed in the Grugni study 0% J1c3 both clusters of Assyrians, as well as Armenians . However according to tradition some Samarian captives were transplanted to Mede territories [Gilaki and or Lur's] is this possible? Can you go into depth of frequency J1* compared to J1c3 in the entire region? Is there an inverse relation between Assyrian East R1b[elevated]/J1*[elevated] and Assyrian West R1b[low]/J1c3[elevated]?

Here are some frequencies. If the other forum finally returns, I will update the post with the missing population data, and other details.

The three "red" populations are Armenians, Assyrians, and the people of Ma'loula, Syria. See the video below, if you are unfamiliar with the latter.

Red frequencies = J1* > J1c3
Blue frequencies = J1c3 > J1*
Black frequencies = breakdown unknown

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/MMap_Middle_East_J1-1_.jpg



By the way, I have no idea what the first fella is saying. Sounds more like Arabic, and less like my language, to be honest.

Ma'loula:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy38UQ9EQ6o


This fella is speaking in the NENA vernacular of Sureth (my language):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ysoup40xAU

Humanist
08-20-2013, 11:18 PM
And, this was the J1 map for the Arab populations (the red here does not indicate anything in particular - all populations are J1-P58 > J1*):

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/MMap_Middle_East_J1_Arab_.jpg

Silesian
08-21-2013, 05:31 AM
And, this was the J1 map for the Arab populations ...

Is this map correct-J1c3d?
http://www4.0zz0.com/2013/05/31/11/722304593.jpg

Humanist
08-22-2013, 10:35 PM
Is this map correct-J1c3d?

Can't tell, really. I mean, sure, there is a definite concentration in the SW, but when you move farther north, and begin mixing the different populations, the map's utility is impacted. I would rather keep them separate. Compare the two that I put together. There are significant differences.

Humanist
08-23-2013, 04:33 AM
N=111 08/22/13
25.2% R1b
18.0% J1
16.2% T
13.5% J2
8.1% E1b1b1
8.1% G
4.5% R2a
2.7% Q1b
1.8% R1a
0.9% F
0.9% L

Silesian
08-24-2013, 02:54 PM
Afro-Asiatic is a term coined in the very recent past. People can speak an "Afro-Asiatic" language, despite an absence of detectable "African" ancestry. This does not necessarily disassociate them from their particular "Afro-Asiatic" language. The below Neo-Assyrian men spoke an "Afro-Asiatic" language, Akkadian. When I look at them, "African" does not exactly come to mind. That said, there is nothing wrong with Africans, or African ancestry. But, I just wanted to make the point that we should not get too caught up with labels. Especially when such labels are very recent creations.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/assyrians_scribe.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/assyrians_2.jpg


It would be useful to know the actual J1*[J-P58] breakdown of the Assyrians. As per the study in Published online 2009 October 14. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2009.166
PMCID: PMC2987219
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image% 20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=2987219_ejhg2009166f1.jpg


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image% 20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=2987219_ejhg2009166f1.jpg




For J1e, the Zagros/Taurus mountain region displays the highest haplotype diversity, although the J1e frequency increases toward the peripheral Arabian Peninsula

Diagram 1f


Construed trajectories of J1e lineage spread episodes. In red are delineated the initial Holocene migrations from the Taurus/Zagros Mountains to the Arabian Peninsula. Shown with black arrows are the subsequent expansions of Arabic populations in Arabia beginning in the Bronze Age.......In summary, haplogroup J1e data suggest an advance of the Neolithic period agriculturalists/pastoralists into the arid regions of Arabia from the Fertile Crescent and support an association with a Semitic linguistic common denominator

Where the possible confusion comes about is the placement in this 2011 map of R-M269 which places it in the direct path the authors of the study have pegged the initial J1e expansion. Both areas on both maps are within reach of Assyrian regions.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R-Map.png
In theory if both markers are from the same region they should perhaps track one another?

Humanist
09-12-2013, 06:45 PM
N=113 09/09/13
25.7% R1b
18.6% J1
15.9% T
13.3% J2
8.0% E1b1b1
8.0% G
4.4% R2a
2.7% Q1b
1.8% R1a
0.9% F
0.9% L

Humanist
10-06-2013, 04:39 PM
As for so-called "Nestorians," I have identified three major paternal groups (the labels are for fun :) ):

1. R1b-L584 "Smiths"

2. J1-CTS1460 "Clergy"

3. T1-PS21 "???"

Khamis - 187962 (Assyrian) is CTS1460+.

At 111 STR, hybrid mutation model, McDonald's mutation rates, 95% probability, TMRCAs for Khamis, with other men confirmed CTS1460 to date and tested through 111 STR:


Saudi Arabia 3420
France 3240
Russian Federation 3150
Armenia 2760

Humanist
10-07-2013, 03:41 AM
Perhaps a bit tangential, but I think it is a reminder of how present demographics may be a very poor substitute for the past demographics of a region, country, etc.

Using religion.

Roughly 400 years before the rise of Christianity, 1000 years before the advent of Islam, in the central and southern parts of the country we today refer to as Iraq, in Babylonia, the following would have reigned supreme:

1. Sumero-Akkadian (Sumerian/East Semitic)
2. Judaism (West Semitic)
3. Zoroastrianism (Iranian)
4. Hellenism (Greek)

Humanist
10-16-2013, 01:09 AM
N=114 (10/15/13)
25.4%--R1b
18.4%--J1
15.8%--T
14.0%--J2
7.9%---E1b1b1
7.9%---G
4.4%---R2a
2.6%---Q1b
1.8%---R1a
0.9%---F
0.9%---L

Humanist
10-20-2013, 10:26 PM
G1 is only myself and a man from Iraq. So, ~2%.

A couple of analyses of my haplotype:

From one of Palisto's 111 STR analyses:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/palisto_g_111_.jpg


From one of Marko's 111 STR trees:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/g1_111.jpg


Adding Ray Banks' comments on a 2012 study of relevance to the understanding of Y-DNA G1:


[From Ray Banks, Haplogroup G Project Administrator]

"New Study of India. A free new study by ArunKumar et al. shows a higher percentage of G among the southern Indian population than I have seen in earlier Indian studies. G is about 5% among the lowland men, but half that among hill farmers. Their time calculations are sure to be controversial because of the use of the Zhivotovsky formula. But G persons have some of the greatest variety of marker values in this region, and this suggests under any method a common ancestor of these men who lived before the beginning of agriculture. They do have in table S1 a list of 17-marker haplotypes matched to the haplogroup. Only M201 was used. But it is noted that about half the samples have 12 for DYS392. Previously this has been found only among G1 persons. If this is the case here, this finding suggests there may have been a migration in hunter gatherer days from the area of Iran(where G1 is most common) to this region. The highest percentage of G found was among the priestly caste of Iyengar Brahmins (a third), but only a small number of samples for this group. This particular group has some above average DYS393 values, which was seen also in our Indian samples determined to be P303 x L140."


The study: Population Differentiation of Southern Indian Male Lineages Correlates with Agricultural Expansions Predating the Caste System (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050269) Arunkumar et al.


There were 52 members of Y-DNA G observed in the above study. Among the 46 G men with values reported for DYS392, 26 men had the value 12 (diagnostic for G1-M285).

From the study:


The defining features for these MPGs were the following: (1) ‘Hill Tribe – Foragers’ (HTF), tribal populations sharing a foraging mode of subsistence and speaking their own Dravidian (Tamil/Malayalam) dialects; (2) ‘Hill Tribes – Cremating’ (HTC), tribes who cremate their dead, an unique socio-cultural feature among these tribal populations; (3) ‘Hill Tribes - Kannada-Speakers’ (HTK), hunter-gatherer tribes speaking the Kannada (Dravidian) languages; (4) ‘Scheduled Castes’, (SC), designated by the Indian Government as non-land owning laborers, ranked lowest in the Varna system; (5) ‘Dry Land Farmers’ (DLF), populations living by dry-land farming subsistence, cultivating crops (millets and grains) that do not require irrigation technology; (6) ‘Artisans and Warriors’ (AW), populations that are traditionally warriors or artisans of various kinds, and; (7) ‘Brahmin Related’ (BRH), following the Vedic traditions with a good knowledge on water management and wet land irrigation.

The 26 G men with DYS392=12 were distributed as follows, based on the above "codes":


76.9%--Dry-Land Farmers

11.5%--Artisan and Warriors
7.7%--Schedule Castes
3.8%--Brahmin related

0.0%--Hill Tribe Foragers
0.0%--Hill Tribe Cremating
0.0%--Hill Tribe Kannada

EDIT:

Forgot to add G1 (?) Y-DNA frequencies for the populations with men possessing DYS392=12:


3.9%--Dry-Land Farmers
1.3%--Schedule Castes
1.0%--Artisan and Warriors
0.7%--Brahmin related

EDIT 2:

A note on the term, "Scheduled Castes."

Britannica.com


untouchable, also called Dalit, officially Scheduled Caste, formerly Harijan, in traditional Indian society, the former name for any member of a wide range of low-caste Hindu groups and any person outside the caste system. The use of the term and the social disabilities associated with it were declared illegal in the constitutions adopted by the Constituent Assembly of India in 1949 and of Pakistan in 1953. Mahatma Gandhi called untouchables Harijans (“Children of the God Hari Vishnu,” or simply “Children of God”) and long worked for their emancipation. However, this name is now considered condescending and offensive. The term Dalit later came to be used, though that too occasionally has negative connotations. The official designation Scheduled Caste is the most common term now used in India. Kocheril Raman Narayanan, who served as president of India from 1997 to 2002, was the first member of a Scheduled Caste to occupy a high office in the country.

Silesian
10-20-2013, 11:26 PM
Perhaps a bit tangential, but I think it is a reminder of how present demographics may be a very poor substitute for the past demographics of a region, country, etc.

Using religion.

Roughly 400 years before the rise of Christianity, 1000 years before the advent of Islam, in the central and southern parts of the country we today refer to as Iraq, in Babylonia, the following would have reigned supreme:

1. Sumero-Akkadian (Sumerian/East Semitic)
2. Judaism (West Semitic)
3. Zoroastrianism (Iranian)
4. Hellenism (Greek)

In reply to your tangential assertion, I would counter with the following. That common denominator/s can be found by parsing the data and comparing it to current populations; this despite upheavals in religion and other, as page 258 shows.
http://www.ebc.ee/EVOLUTSIOON/publications/Shen2004.pdf

Peidong Shen,1Tal Lavi,2Toomas Kivisild,3Vivian Chou,1Deniz Sengun...Assaf Harofeh Medical
Center, Zerifin, Israel;6Department of Biological Sciences, Stanford University, Stanford, California

Humanist
10-21-2013, 12:18 AM
In reply to your tangential assertion, I would counter with the following. That common denominator/s can be found by parsing the data and comparing it to current populations; this despite upheavals in religion and other, as page 258 shows.
http://www.ebc.ee/EVOLUTSIOON/publications/Shen2004.pdf

I mentioned Shen et al. yesterday. See this post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?506-U7-Frequencies-From-Some-Sources-(U7-%26%238805%3B-5-)&p=16742&viewfull=1#post16742).

Humanist
10-26-2013, 09:40 PM
Although this may have little to no relevance to the below comparison, my paternal grandfather and grandmother moved to Rasht, Gilan Province, Iran, in the 1940s, after being released from a Soviet Gulag in Siberian Kazakhstan. From there, they eventually made their way to the United States.

Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0076748#s6)

Cristofaro et al. 2013


G1 samples from Iran and one Mongolian from the study, compared to my G1 haplotype.

38 STRs compared.

MON1-Mongol-SouthEast
IRN1-East Azeri
IRN2-Gilan
IRN3-Gilan
IRN4-Kordestan

ASY1-Humanist

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/g1_tmrca_.jpg


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/g1_iran_102613_.jpg

Humanist
10-27-2013, 08:37 PM
Based on R-L23 data from Cristofaro et al. 2013

TMRCAs, using 27 STRs, with the Assyrian R-L584 Modal



TMRCA
3420 DUN1 Dungan DG9 *
3420 TEH2 Teheran IR8_11 (IRANIAN)
3900 UZB1 Uzbek-Jawzjan UZ8_16
3900 UZB6 Uzbek-Jawzjan UZ8_9
3900 KOR1 Kordestan IR5_7 (IRANIAN)
4380 HAZ1 Hazara-Bamiyan AZ6_51
4380 TAJ1 Tajik-Balkh TJ1_14
4380 TAJ4 Tajik-Takhar TJ7_10
4380 TAJ5 Tajik-Takhar TJ7_28
4380 TAJ6 Tajik-Takhar TJ7_30
4380 UZB5 Uzbek-Jawzjan UZ8_87
4380 GIL4 Gilan IR3_27 (IRANIAN)
4380 UNK1 Unknown IR9_7 (IRANIAN)
4890 KYR3 Kyrgyz-NorthWest KG3_15
4890 UZB2 Uzbek-Jawzjan UZ8_40
4890 UZB3 Uzbek-Jawzjan UZ8_48
4890 UZB4 Uzbek-Jawzjan UZ8_82
4890 KHO1 Khorasan IR4_7 (IRANIAN)
4890 KOR2 Kordestan IR5_13 (IRANIAN)
4950 GIL3 Gilan IR3_14 (IRANIAN)
5430 KYR1 Kyrgyz-Central KG2_21
5430 TAJ2 Tajik-Balkh TJ1_20
5430 TAJ3 Tajik-Balkh TJ1_3
5430 GIL1 Gilan IR3_8 (IRANIAN)
5430 GIL2 Gilan IR3_10 (IRANIAN)
5430 UNK2 Unknown IR9_8 (IRANIAN)
6000 EAZ2 East Azeri IR1_13 (IRANIAN)
6000 EAZ3 East Azeri IR1_17 (IRANIAN)
6000 ESF1 Esfahan IR2_41 (IRANIAN)
6000 MAZ1 Mazandaran IR6_5 (IRANIAN)
6630 KYR2 Kyrgyz-NorthWest KG3_14
6630 TKM1 Turkmen-Jawzjan TK9_19
6630 EAZ1 East Azeri IR1_10 (IRANIAN)
7260 SIR1 South Iran IR7_9 (IRANIAN)
7260 TEH1 Teheran IR8_8 (IRANIAN)
7260 TEH3 Teheran IR8_13 (IRANIAN)


*
Wikipedia


Dungan is a term used in territories of the former Soviet Union to refer to a Muslim people of Chinese origin.[6]

Dungan girls in Shor-Tyube, Kazakhstan.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Dungan-Girls.JPG/250px-Dungan-Girls.JPG

Humanist
11-04-2013, 02:59 AM
It took 115 Y chromosomes, but we finally have our first Assyrian Y-DNA I man.

N=115--11/03/13
25.2%--R1b
18.3%--J1
15.7%--T
13.9%--J2
7.8%--E1b1b1
7.8%--G
4.3%--R2a
2.6%--Q1b
1.7%--R1a
0.9%--F
0.9%--L
0.9%--I2 (I2b1* on 23andMe, Current I2a2a (M223))


Wikipedia, regarding I-M223


The age of YSTR variation for the I-M223 subclade is 13.2±2.7 kya[2] and 12.3±3.1 kya.[11] I-M223 has a peak in Germany and another in eastern Sweden, but also appears in Romania/Moldova, Russia, Greece, Italy and around the Black Sea due to movement of Alans/Sarmatians/Scythians.[17] Haplogroup I2a2a has been found in over 4% of the population only in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark,probably moving tribes of Dacians. England (excluding Cornwall), Scotland, possibly descendants of the Iazyges, Legio VI Victrix, ] 175 410 AD, also the southern tips of Sweden and Norway in Northwest Europe; the provinces of Normandy, Maine, Anjou, and Perche in northwestern France; the province of Provence in southeastern France; the regions of Tuscany, Umbria, and Latium in Italy; Moldavia and the area around Russia's Ryazan Oblast and Republic of Mordovia in Eastern Europe maybe Agathyrsi, Khazars. Of historical note, both haplogroups I-M253 and I-M223 appear at a low frequency in the historical regions of Bithynia and Galatia in Turkey, possibly descendants of the Thracians, Cataphract of Alexander the Great at 334 BC, and Varangians, who are historically recorded to have invaded those parts of Anatolia from the 9th to 11th centuries. They ventured southwards along the rivers of Eastern Europe, connecting Scandinavia with Constantinople and Byzantine Empire.[18] Haplogroup I2a2a also occurs among approximately 1% of the Sardinians - Vandals. The subclade divergence for M223 occurred 14.6±3.8 kya (Rootsi 2004).


I took a look at Kurdish Y-DNA distribution (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2013/10/kurdish-y-dna-part-x.html), since Y-DNA I is observed at modest frequencies in Kurds. The distribution is below:


Haplogroup I
4x I-M170 (Iraqi Kurds in Stenersen et al., 2004; based on Athey's Haplogroup predictor)
9x I-M170 (Zaza from Turkey in Nasidze et al., 2005)
14x I-M170 (Kurmanji from Turkey in Nasidze et al., 2005)
1x I-M170 (Iranian Kurds in Malyarchuk et al., 2013)
1x I2-M438 (Iranian Kurds in Grugni et al., 2012)
1x I2a2a-M223 (Kurdish village Dogukoy*/Central Anatolia in Gokcumen et al., 2011)
1x I2a2a* (old I2b1*; Z161+, L1228-, L1229-, L1230-, L1226-, L699-, L701-, L702-, L703-, L704-, M379-)(Sorani from Sulaymaniyah/Iraq)
1x I2a2b-L38 (Kurdish village Dogukoy*/Central Anatolia in Gokcumen et al., 2011)


The Armenian DNA Project also has a few I-M223 men.

EDIT:

The Arabian Gulf project has one member of Y-DNA I. He is I-M223.


EDIT 2:

I-M223 frequencies from Cristofaro et al. 2013 (see previous posts, above):


% N
11.1 9 South Iran
5.0 20 Khorasan
4.0 25 Hazara
2.4 42 Esfahan
1.4 69 Hazara-Bamiyan

palamede
11-05-2013, 03:20 PM
I believe results of haplogroup I in the Nasidze studies are wrong due to laboratory analysis and should have been removed from the compilation of results.

Unfortunately, is was not done and the statistics for haplogroup I (and other haplogroups) in Middle East and Caucasus are corrupted often.

Humanist
11-07-2013, 03:52 AM
I created a thread the other day: "Ancient DNA and Population Turnover in Southern Levantine Pigs- Signature of the Sea Peoples Migration? (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1547-Ancient-DNA-and-Population-Turnover-in-Southern-Levantine-Pigs-Signature-of-the)"


Some past posts of mine (from another forum) that may be of some relevance:


What do Assyrians, Alawites, some Druze, and Indo-Europeans have in common, going back, say, 2500-3500 years? Perhaps NW Mesopotamia, and the Mediterranean coast of N Syria and S Turkey.

It is possible that the R1b modals observed in Assyrians, Druze, and Alawites, were at one time the paternal lines of Aramaic-speaking Luwians, Hittites, and/or other former IE-speaking peoples.



The "Aramaeans" as a West Semitic/Hittite-Luwian/Hurrian amalgam still makes the most sense to me, based on the totality of the data.



The Aramaeans in the NW settled in the heart of what was Hurrian and Hittite/Luwian country. The product, the Aramaeans of later centuries, or more appropriately, Aramaic-speaking groups, were a mix of Semites (the original Aramaeans, and other Semitic peoples), Indo-Europeans, and Hurrians, in my opinion. A motley bunch.


I stated once (or perhaps more than once) that the "Aramaean" label, in Akkadian "Armu" and "Ahlamu," may have been a broad term meant to encompass many peoples from the west, not under the yoke of Ashur (e.g. "barbarians"). Perhaps, in some way, related to the term "Arbu."



Greeks = Aramaeans, below?


“Keeping it in the Family? Jacob and his Aramean Heritage according to Jewish and Christian Sources (http://www.academia.edu/3616668/_Keeping_it_in_the_Family_Jacob_and_his_Aramean_He ritage_according_to_Jewish_and_Christian_Sources_) ”
by Alison Salvesen
Research Interests: Midrash and Syriac Studies
The Exegetical Encounter between Jews and Christians in Late Antiquity
2009



Around the time of the Bronze Age collapse, the beginning of an enduring Assyrian dynasty, lion-skin cloaks, cremations, horses and foals, Ḫanigalbat/Mitanni...



Reading up on the Urnfield culture reminded me of the above posts (and others). Any connection with R-L23? Armaye? Barbarians? Greeks? Why were the Assyrians unfamiliar with their opponent? Many questions.



Ahlamu + Sea Peoples + ? = later Aramaeans? Note where the map places the Aramaeans, and recall my recent post regarding the modern consensus regarding their "indigeneity," despite being unattested by the most literate societies of the time.



Just a note, regarding my interest in the "Aramaean question." If what I suggest as a possibility (i.e. the mixed origins of the Aramaeans) is in fact true, then it also follows that the origin of one of the most significant Assyrian Y-DNA lines may be "Aramaean." Seeing as R-L23 is associated, to a great extent, with the modern Indo-European speaking peoples of Western Europe, we must also consider the strong chance that our modern (read: Judeo-Christian) perceptions of what and who the Aramaeans were does not capture the reality of what actually was.



Suggestions of kinship ties between Greeks and Assyrians/Babylonians, made by the Greeks themselves. It is interesting that many people refer to Herodotus when tracing the possible origins of the Armenians, but completely ignore his accounts, when it comes to Assyrians/Babylonians. Well, at least the Neo-Assyrian/Babylonian royals.



Source: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu

Herodotus, The Histories
A. D. Godley, Ed.

1.7


Now the sovereign power that belonged to the descendants of Heracles fell to the family of Croesus, called the Mermnadae, in the following way. *Candaules, whom the Greeks call Myrsilus, was the ruler of Sardis; he was descended from Alcaeus, son of Heracles; Agron son of Ninus, son of Belus, son of Alcaeus, was the first Heraclid king of Sardis and Candaules son of Myrsus was the last. *The kings of this country before Agron were descendants of Lydus, son of Atys, from whom this whole Lydian district got its name; before that it was called the land of the Meii. *The Heraclidae, descendants of Heracles and a female slave of Iardanus, received the sovereignty from these and held it, because of an oracle; and they ruled for twenty-two generations, or five hundred and five years, son succeeding father, down to Candaules son of Myrsus.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: http://www.maicar.com/GML/HERACLIDES.html


Agron 2. Agron 2 is said to be the first of the HERACLIDES to become king of Sardes (Lydia) (see also Croesus). He is son of Ninus, the Assyrian who founded Nineveh. Ninus was son of Belus 3, son of Alcaeus 6, son of Heracles 1 and Omphale (Hdt.1.7).

Belus 3. Son of Alcaeus 6, son of Heracles 1 & Omphale. Belus 3, who is counted among the HERACLIDES, is also called father of Ninus, the founder of Nineveh and husband of Semiramis (see also Croesus) (Hdt.1.7).

Ninus. Son of Belus 3. Father of Agron 2. King of Assyria and founder of Nineveh. He was murdered by his wife Semiramis, founder and Queen of Babylonia (see also Croesus) (Dio.2.7.1; Hdt.1.7; Hyg.Fab.240; Ov.Met.4.88;

Humanist
11-13-2013, 12:50 AM
N=117 (11/12/13)
25.6%-R1b
17.9%-J1
15.4%-T
14.5%-J2
7.7%-E1b1b1
7.7%-G
4.3%-R2a
2.6%-Q1b
1.7%-R1a
0.9%-F
0.9%-L
0.9%-I2

Humanist
11-13-2013, 03:34 AM
In connection to the second to last post.

Wikipedia


The states that are called Neo-Hittite, or more recently Syro-Hittite, or Aramean (after the Arameans and the Aramaic language), were Luwian, Aramaic and Phoenician-speaking political entities of the Iron Age in northern Syria and southern Anatolia that arose following the collapse of the Hittite Empire around 1180 BC and which lasted until roughly 700 BC. The term "Neo-Hittite" is sometimes reserved specifically for the Luwian-speaking principalities like Milid and Carchemish, although in a wider sense the broader cultural term "Syro-Hittite" is now applied to all the entities that arose in south-central Anatolia following the Hittite collapse — such as Tabal and Quwê — as well as those of northern and coastal Syria.[1]

The vast Hittite empire at its maximum expansion in the lands of central Anatolia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Map_Hittite_rule_en.svg/300px-Map_Hittite_rule_en.svg.png


Historical map of the Neo-Hittite states, c. 800 BCE. Borders are approximate only.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/NeoHittiteStates.gif

Humanist
11-13-2013, 08:06 PM
A few interesting bits on the two Semitic-speaking populations I have referred to often, in addition to Assyrians, when speaking of R1b.

Wikipedia


When the French began to occupy Syria in 1920,[31] an Alawite State was created in the coastal and mountain country comprising most Alawite villages; the French justified this by citing differences between the "backwards" mountain people and the mainstream Sunnis. The division also intended to protect the Alawite people from more-powerful majorities, such as the Sunnis.

The French also created microstates, such as Greater Lebanon for the Maronite Christians and Jabal al-Druze for the Druze. Aleppo and Damascus were also separate states.[32] Under the Mandate many Alawite chieftains supported a separate Alawite nation, and tried to convert their autonomy into independence.

The French encouraged Alawites to join their military forces, in part to provide a counterweight to the Sunni majority (which was more hostile to their rule). According to a 1935 letter by the French minister of war, the French considered the Alawites and the Druze the only "warlike races" in the Mandate territories.[33]

Joe B
11-13-2013, 09:10 PM
A few interesting bits on the two Semitic-speaking populations I have referred to often, in addition to Assyrians, when speaking of R1b.

Wikipedia
When the French began to occupy Syria in 1920,[31] an Alawite State was created in the coastal and mountain country comprising most Alawite villages; the French justified this by citing differences between the "backwards" mountain people and the mainstream Sunnis. The division also intended to protect the Alawite people from more-powerful majorities, such as the Sunnis.

The French also created microstates, such as Greater Lebanon for the Maronite Christians and Jabal al-Druze for the Druze. Aleppo and Damascus were also separate states.[32] Under the Mandate many Alawite chieftains supported a separate Alawite nation, and tried to convert their autonomy into independence.

The French encouraged Alawites to join their military forces, in part to provide a counterweight to the Sunni majority (which was more hostile to their rule). According to a 1935 letter by the French minister of war, the French considered the Alawites and the Druze the only "warlike races" in the Mandate territories.[33]
Informative thread.
I've been following this part of the world as one of my neighbors is from Zaidel.
What flavor R1b are you seeing in the Alawites and the Druze?
In terms of y-dna, is it indigenous to the western slope of the An-Nusayriyah Mountains or could the y-haplogroups be influenced by the establishment of the Alawite faith in the 9th and 10th centuries?

Rumour has it for the current regime in Damascus, plan B is an Alawite State.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/French_Mandate_for_Syria_and_the_Lebanon_map_en.sv g/725px-French_Mandate_for_Syria_and_the_Lebanon_map_en.sv g.png

Humanist
11-14-2013, 01:00 AM
What flavor R1b are you seeing in the Alawites and the Druze?
In terms of y-dna, is it indigenous to the western slope of the An-Nusayriyah Mountains or could the y-haplogroups be influenced by the establishment of the Alawite faith in the 9th and 10th centuries?

Thanks for the interest, Joe. Most of my posts are on a now defunct forum, but I did manage to find these haplotypes. Will need to search for the Druze studies. Unfortunately many groups in this part of the world, including the Alawites, remain significantly understudied.

[As always, many thanks to ADW1981 for bringing this study to our attention on the 23andMe discussion forums and DNA-Forums]


The Alawite R1b presumed or possible haplotypes, based on Athey's predictor, from the data published in Donbak et al.


n=1 12 23 14 10 11 14 xx xx xx 14 13 30
n=1 12 24 14 10 10 14 xx xx xx 12 13 29
n=1 12 24 14 10 11 14 xx xx xx 13 13 29
n=1 12 24 14 11 11 14 xx xx xx 14 13 30
n=2 12 24 14 12 11 14 xx xx xx 14 13 30
n=1 12 24 14 12 11 14 xx xx xx 13 13 29
n=3 12 25 14 11 11 14 xx xx xx 13 13 29
n=1 12 25 14 12 11 14 xx xx xx 14 13 30
n=5 13 24 14 11 11 15 xx xx xx 13 13 29
n=2 13 24 14 11 11 15 xx xx xx 12 13 28
n=12 13 24 14 11 11 15 xx xx xx 14 13 30
n=1 13 24 14 10 11 15 xx xx xx 14 13 30
n=1 13 24 14 11 11 15 xx xx xx 15 13 31
n=1 13 24 14 11 10 15 xx xx xx 15 13 31
n=1 13 24 16 10 11 14 xx xx xx 14 13 30

Humanist
11-14-2013, 03:51 AM
Frequencies for the Jewish groups taken from my Y-DNA T frequency map of Near East minority groups. I do not have the excel sheet, but I believe they are from Mendez et al.? The Iraqi Arab frequency is rounded from the frequency reported on Eupedia (3.5%).


Y-DNA T
19%-North Iraqi Jews
15%-Assyrians
14%-Iraqi Jews
11%-Iranian Jews
4%--Iraqi Arab

Humanist
12-01-2013, 06:12 PM
N=118 (12/01/13)
25.4%-R1b
17.8%-J1
15.3%-T
14.4%-J2
7.6%-E1b1b1
7.6%-G
4.2%-R2a
3.4%-Q1b
1.7%-R1a
0.8%-F
0.8%-L
0.8%-I2

Silesian
12-01-2013, 10:12 PM
A few interesting bits on the two Semitic-speaking populations I have referred to often, in addition to Assyrians, when speaking of R1b.


The French encouraged Alawites to join their military forces, in part to provide a counterweight to the Sunni majority (which was more hostile to their rule). According to a 1935 letter by the French minister of war, the French considered the Alawites and the Druze the only "warlike races" in the Mandate territories.[33]

The ancestral home of the Assad family (Qardaha).In Akkadian, "qardu" meant "heroic." also "to be warlike."

Blacksmiths
Kaveh the blacksmith:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaveh_the_blacksmith


Kaveh is the most famous of Persian mythological characters in resistance against despotic foreign rule in Iran...........In 1920, the name of Kaveh was written in the canton of the flag of the Persian Socialist Soviet Republic (widely known as the Soviet Republic of Gilan).[8]

Kurdalægon (Ossetian: Куырдалӕгон[1]) is the heavenly god of the blacksmiths in Ossetian mythology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdalagon


Kurd originates from *kur-ta- or *kur-tar-, which is agent noun of *kur- "to heat", "to incandesce".

Humanist
12-02-2013, 02:40 AM
Comparing Assyrian frequencies to the Sicilian frequencies reported in Di Gaetano et al. (2009) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/). Some haplogroups/subclades have been combined in order to compare the Assyrian data.



From Table 1 of the study:
Abbreviations: TP, Trapani; MZ, Mazara del Vallo; SN, [B]Santa Ninfa; AL, Alcamo; CA, Caccamo; SC, Sciacca; PZ, Piazza Armerina; TR, Troina; RG, Ragusa.

Figure 2 from the study:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/figure_2_digaetano.jpg

Cluster and Neighbor-Joining analyses respectively:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/digaetano_cluster.jpg

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/digaetano_neighbor_joining.jpg


Frequencies for Sciacca ("SC"):

R1b -- 28.6
T -- 17.9
J2 -- 17.9
E1b -- 14.3
G -- 10.7
I -- 3.6
Q -- 3.6
R1a -- 3.6
J1 -- 0.0
L -- 0.0
F -- 0.0
R2a -- 0.0

Silesian
12-02-2013, 03:54 AM
Comparing Assyrian frequencies to the Sicilian frequencies reported in Di Gaetano et al. (2009) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/). Some haplogroups/subclades have been combined in order to compare the Assyrian data.

Another excellent find. It looks like the Western part of the Island has higher frequencies of R1b, just like the Assyrians, who border Northwest Iran.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Tribes_of_Sicily_by_11th_century_BC.png


Haplogroup R1b1c-M269, the most frequent Y-chromosome Hg in Europeans, is differentially distributed among eastern (18.4%) and western (30.3%) areas of Sicily. The Levantine Hgs7, 12 spread is also very informative: E3b1a-M78, G2-P15 and J2-M172 s
Di Gaetano et al. (2009) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/)

This would corroborate the various accounts of the Elymians originating from Western Anatolia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elymians



The Greeks identified them as descendants of the Trojans; Thucydides claimed that their ancestors had been refugees from Troy....


Troy VII has been identified with the Hittite Wilusa, the probable origin of the Greek Ἴλιον, and is generally (but not conclusively) identified with Homeric Troy.

Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%)
So they very well could have been from Western Anatolia, either from Greeks, Trojans, Hittites.

It does seem that R1b was associated with warfare. Assyrians-Masters of war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhEG9jzCzz4

The Assyrians also knew the value of horses and prized them from Iran.

Humanist
12-02-2013, 04:13 AM
The Assyrians also knew the value of horses and prized them from Iran.

:)

Ezekiel 23:12


She lusted after the Assyrians, governors and commanders, warriors clothed in full armor, horsemen riding on horses, all of them desirable young men.


Image source: Gutenberg.org

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/assyrian_cavalry.jpg

vettor
12-02-2013, 08:04 AM
Another excellent find. It looks like the Western part of the Island has higher frequencies of R1b, just like the Assyrians, who border Northwest Iran.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Tribes_of_Sicily_by_11th_century_BC.png


Di Gaetano et al. (2009) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/)

This would corroborate the various accounts of the Elymians originating from Western Anatolia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elymians






Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%)
So they very well could have been from Western Anatolia, either from Greeks, Trojans, Hittites.



If Elymians are part Trojans, then the story that Aeneas stopped in Sicily after leaving Carthage and Queen Dido are correct....... but western Anatolia also has aeolians. Is there Aeolians in Sicily?
The only Greeks I know in Sicily via records prior to the Peloponnese war are Corinthians

Chios an island on the western Anatolian region has similar markers to the elmyians in Sicily.

IF,..... Trojans are part of this, then other fables of Trojans migrating to the top of the Adriatic sea area needs to be confirmed by similar markers............are they similar?

Humanist
12-02-2013, 05:04 PM
Another excellent find. It looks like the Western part of the Island has higher frequencies of R1b, just like the Assyrians, who border Northwest Iran.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/Tribes_of_Sicily_by_11th_century_BC_half.jpg

Figure 1 from Di Gaetano et al. is interesting as well (relevant part):

Orange = Phoenicians
Green = Greeks


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/digaetano_sicily.jpg


EDIT:

Adding the R1b frequencies to Figure 2 from Di Gaetano et al.

Red frequencies: R1b > 20%
Purple frequencies: R1b < 20%

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/figure_2_digaetano_r1b.png

Humanist
12-04-2013, 10:50 AM
Creating a cluster analysis based on Y-DNA haplogroup frequencies reported in the following study, plus the Assyrian data gathered in this thread:

Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0080293;jsessi onid=A4F16FE1589558524BBA7A734977E8E7)

Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. (2013)

Frequencies for Y-DNA E were combined.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/cluster_na.jpg

Humanist
12-04-2013, 11:01 PM
I ran a SplitsTree analysis (NeighborNet-ConvexHull) on all 111 STR haplotypes in the "Jewish Q1b1a L245+" category of the Jewish_Q -- YDNA Haplogroup Q1b of European Descent project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jewish_Q/default.aspx?vgroup=Jewish_Q&section=yresults).

ASY--Assyrian (from Turkey)
BEL--Belarus
GER--Germany
IRE--Ireland
POL--Poland
RUS--Russia
SWI--Switzerland
UKR--Ukraine
UNK--Unknown

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/q1b_109.jpg

Humanist
12-05-2013, 12:31 AM
TMRCA table for the Q1b1a confirmed (and possible) men in the FTDNA Q project. The Assyrian appears to share the most recent TMRCA with a man from Switzerland (SWI1), a man from Saudi Arabia (KSA1), and a man of unknown origin (UNK2). Caveats regarding TMRCAs apply, as always.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/q1b_109_tmrca_.jpg

[Note: Sample "IR2" should read "IRE2"]

Humanist
12-05-2013, 03:19 AM
Figure 1 from Di Gaetano et al. is interesting as well (relevant part):

Orange = Phoenicians
Green = Greeks


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/digaetano_sicily.jpg


EDIT:

Adding the R1b frequencies to Figure 2 from Di Gaetano et al.

Red frequencies: R1b > 20%
Purple frequencies: R1b < 20%

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/figure_2_digaetano_r1b.png

Y-DNA Q frequencies from Di Gaetano et al. (rounded)

MZ -- 17
RG -- 7
SC -- 4
TP -- 0
SN -- 0
AL -- 0
CA -- 0
PZ -- 0
TR -- 0

vettor
12-05-2013, 09:06 AM
Y-DNA Q frequencies from Di Gaetano et al. (rounded)

MZ -- 17
RG -- 7
SC -- 4
TP -- 0
SN -- 0
AL -- 0
CA -- 0
PZ -- 0
TR -- 0

Marker Q .................where from...phoenicians or carians ?

Humanist
12-05-2013, 07:12 PM
Thanks to a friend for letting me know about another case of Q1b.


N=119--(12/05/13)
25.2%--R1b
17.6%--J1
15.1%--T
14.3%--J2
7.6%--E1b1b1
7.6%--G
4.2%--Q1b
4.2%--R2a
1.7%--R1a
0.8%--F
0.8%--L
0.8%--I2


Marker Q .................where from...phoenicians or carians ?

Jews may be another possibility.

Humanist
12-06-2013, 02:34 AM
High frequency of Y-DNA T found in some men from Madagascar.

Tracing Arab-Islamic Inheritance in Madagascar: Study of the Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA in the Antemoro (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0080932)

Mélanie Capredon et al.

Published: November 22, 2013
DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0080932



Madagascar is located at the crossroads of the Asian and African worlds and is therefore of particular interest for studies on human population migration. Within the large human diversity of the Great Island, we focused our study on a particular ethnic group, the Antemoro. Their culture presents an important Arab-Islamic influence, but the question of an Arab biological inheritance remains unresolved. We analyzed paternal (n=129) and maternal (n=135) lineages of this ethnic group. Although the majority of Antemoro genetic ancestry comes from sub-Saharan African and Southeast Asian gene pools, we observed in their paternal lineages two specific haplogroups (J1 and T1) linked to Middle Eastern origins. This inheritance was restricted to some Antemoro sub-groups. Statistical analyses tended to confirm significant Middle Eastern genetic contribution. This study gives a new perspective to the large human genetic diversity in Madagascar.

....

A part of the Antemoro claims an Arab origin in Mecca. However, the reference to Mecca might not have referred to a geographic location in the Arabian Peninsula, but to a Muslim identity. Their traditions and history are written in the Sorabe Manuscripts, manuscripts written in Malagasy with Arabic characters. The Antemoro society has a hierarchical system in which political powers and magical and religious affairs are separated. Three main sub-groups can be distinguished according to this structure: the Anteony, the Antalaotra and the Ampanabaka. The Anteony are the descendants of aristocrats, from whom the Antemoro king is chosen. The Antalaotra are in charge of the magical and religious domains; they have the ability to read and write Sorabe [1,9,10,12]. These first two groups can be grouped into the Silamo, because they have the right to undertake the ritual slaughter of animals (Sombily). The third group, to which the Ampanabaka belongs, is the Kafiry. The Ampanabaka revolt against the government in the late 19th century marked the end of the Antemoro kingdom [12–14].

Y-DNA frequencies for the Anteony (N=40):

55% -- T1
25% -- J1
13% -- E1b1a
5% -- O2a1
3% -- E1b1b1


Location of Madagascar (source: Google):

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/madagascar_google.jpg

Humanist
12-07-2013, 05:24 AM
The Assyrians also knew the value of horses and prized them from Iran.

An Assyrian View on the Medes (https://www.academia.edu/441280/2003_An_Assyrian_View_on_the_Medes._In_G._B._Lanfr anchi_M._Roaf_and_R._Rollinger_ed._Continuity_of_E mpire_Assyria_Media_Persia._History_of_the_Ancient _Near_East_Monographs_5_Padova_2003_37-64). In G. B. Lanfranchi, M. Roaf & R. Rollinger (ed.), Continuity of Empire: Assyria, Media, Persia. History of the Ancient Near East Monographs 5 (Padova 2003) 37-64.


These eleven campaigns conducted against the Medes, Mannea and Namri...indicate a strong increase of the Assyrian interest in the east...[W]estern Iran had been discovered as a source for horses [references omitted], a commodity of unappeasable demand to Assyria; the army was entirely dependent on horses, without which the army's backbone, the chariotry, could not exist. Until the 9th century, the Assyrians had gained their supply of horses mostly from the wide plains of Inner Anatolia. However, this source was quickly drying up with the fast rise of Assyria's new archrival in the North, Urartu.

Humanist
12-07-2013, 09:46 PM
It should be noted that key populations, namely Syrian Alawites and Druze were not included in the study.


GENETIC AFFINITY OF ASSYRIANS LIVING IN ARMENIA TO DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUPS OF THE NEAR EAST AND SOUTH CAUCASUS

Biolog. Journal of Armenia, 4 (63), 2011

A.S. HARUTYUNYAN
Institute of Molecular Biology, National Academy of Sciences, Armenia


Genetic structure of the Assyrian population was studied using 12 SNP and 6 microsatellite (STR) markers on Y chromosome and the results were compared with other ethnic groups of the Near East region analyzed by the same set of markers. The results reveal that Assyrians are genetically quite distant from Arabs, who also speak Semitic language, and are closer to other populations of the Near East and the South Caucasus. Two main lineages based on Y-chromosomal data were observed within the population which possibly reflects two distinct sources genetically contributed to the origin of Assyrians.


In order to obtain the visual representation of genetic relatedness of the populations studied we calculated genetic distances (RST) based on STR markers and performed Principal Coordinate Analysis. The resulting plot is shown on Fig. 1. The pattern constructed displays several important features worth mentioning. Firstly, Assyrians are close to Syunik and Karabakh which represent the Eastern “genetic province” of Historical Armenia. Secondly, Semitic-speaking four Arabic populations (Bedouins, Palestinian Arabs, Syrians and Yemenis) form a rather distinct cluster of comparative data sets which is genetically distant from Assyrians. In this particular case we can argue that linguistic affiliation does not correlate with genetic relatedness. One of the possible explanations of this difference is language replacement that took place several millennia ago.

Concluding, we can make preliminary suggestion about the dual origin of Assyrians living in Armenia. On one hand, the high frequency of Atlantic Modal Haplotype belonging to R1b lineage rather strongly demonstrates that the ancient Assyrians had significant genetic contacts with the peoples who migrated to North-West Europe, where the vast majority of Y-chromosomal lineages belong to R1b haplogroup (Wilson et al., 2001; Myres et al., 2011). On the other hand, the presence of haplogroup J strongly supports the idea about the Near Eastern origin of Assyrian population. New, higher resolution typing, including more SNPs and STRs, will allow clarifying the hypothesis discussed.


I would have said "Northern Mesopotamians may have had significant genetic contacts with the peoples who eventually migrated to NW Europe."

ZephyrousMandaru
12-12-2013, 04:36 AM
It should be noted that key populations, namely Syrian Alawites and Druze were not included in the study.


GENETIC AFFINITY OF ASSYRIANS LIVING IN ARMENIA TO DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUPS OF THE NEAR EAST AND SOUTH CAUCASUS

Biolog. Journal of Armenia, 4 (63), 2011

A.S. HARUTYUNYAN
Institute of Molecular Biology, National Academy of Sciences, Armenia






I would have said "Northern Mesopotamians may have had significant genetic contacts with the peoples who eventually migrated to NW Europe."

If this R1b was in fact introduced to Assyrians by Northwest Europeans, why is that Assyrians have low to almost no North European admixture?

vettor
12-12-2013, 05:01 AM
High frequency of Y-DNA T found in some men from Madagascar.

Tracing Arab-Islamic Inheritance in Madagascar: Study of the Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA in the Antemoro (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0080932)

Mélanie Capredon et al.

Published: November 22, 2013
DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0080932




Y-DNA frequencies for the Anteony (N=40):

55% -- T1
25% -- J1
13% -- E1b1a
5% -- O2a1
3% -- E1b1b1


Location of Madagascar (source: Google):

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/madagascar_google.jpg

T1 and J1 in madagscar are from arab slave traders from east-african lands. They where also slave traders there. if you check the age of both T1 and J1 in africa they are young compared to other places.

arab slavers operated the same as european slavers in west africa, ie, contract a tribe to raid an internal tribe and capture people for slaves. Most of these slaves wher sold in Oman and other places near the entrance of the persin gulf

Humanist
12-12-2013, 06:06 AM
If this R1b was in fact introduced to Assyrians by Northwest Europeans, why is that Assyrians have low to almost no North European admixture?

Northwest Europeans --> Assyrians? No. But it is possible that people/groups speaking an Anatolian Indo-European language may have had something to do with it. And these Anatolian Indo-European-speaking peoples may be the link between Assyrians and the R1b men of NW Europe.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/assyria_1200BCE.jpg

Humanist
12-18-2013, 03:25 AM
A post I made last year, on another forum:


Here is an idea for a paper, National Geographic’s Genographic Project. Who was the patriarch of this R1b line? :)

The estimates may not be precise. But, from what I know about this line, they may provide a general idea.

Based on Marko's 67 STR R tree.

Five of the Assyrian R-L584 men are tested through 67 markers.

The year estimates are not necessarily precise.

(R-L943)

Assyrian #1, kit # 205749: TMRCA of 1848 years with Askhenazi Cohanim.

Assyrian #2, kit # 213562: TMRCA of 2239 years with Assyrian #1 and Askhenazi Cohanim. Another 1011 years (3250 years), connects him to four men. One of the men lists France as an origin.

Humanist
12-18-2013, 03:48 AM
Another previous post that may be of some relevance to a recent study conducted by Rootsi et al. (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131217/ncomms3928/full/ncomms3928.html#introduction) regarding the origin of the Ashkenazi Levites.



I asked a question a few months ago, on another forum, regarding the possible genetic and linguistic impact on the Assyrian Heartland, in the 8th and 7th centuries BCE, and beyond, by this fact:

Origin points for ~90% of deportations to the Assyrian Heartland.

Font size = % reported in Roads and Mass Deportations in the Neo-Assyrian Empire (David Danzig 2011)

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/assyrian_deported_heartland__.jpg


And, the contents of a related post:

Again, from the Danzig paper, including some possible ideas regarding languages spoken in the regions in question (added by me).

Sources for all Neo-Assyrian deportations, to all destinations, in descending order of frequency:

56.7% Southern Zagros / Elam and Babylonia (Elamite, Akkadian, Iranian*, Indo-Iranian??)
18.4% Middle and South Levant (Canaanite related languages (i.e. ancient Hebrew), NW Semitic (i.e. Old Aramaic))
8.0% Anatolia (W/C Anatolian Indo-European (e.g. Luwian, Hittite), Hurrian?**)
5.0% Northern Zagros and Foothills (Hurro-Urartian?, Akkadian, Iranian*, Indo-Iranian (e.g. Median?))
4.5% North Levant / Upper Euphrates Elbow (NW Semitic (i.e. Old Aramaic), W/C Anatolian Indo-European (e.g. Luwian, Hittite), Hurrian?)
3.5% Lakes Van and Urmia (Hurro-Urartian related languages, E Anatolian IE (proto-Armenian or Armenian?))
2.0% Euphrates and Tigris Sources (Hurro-Urartian related languages?, E Anatolian IE (proto-Armenian or Armenian?), W/C Anatolian Indo-European?? (e.g. Luwian, Hittite))
2.0% Habur Area / Jazira (NW Semitic (i.e. Old Aramaic), Akkadian, Hurrian?)

* Not Indo-Iranian. Or, at least not from what I have been able to understand from the record.
** This may be a bit late for an actual "Hurrian." Not late for a "Hurro-Urartian" related language, of course (i.e. Urartian).

Rathna
12-18-2013, 04:43 AM
Another previous post that may be of some relevance to a recent study conducted by Rootsi et al. (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131217/ncomms3928/full/ncomms3928.html#introduction) regarding the origin of the Ashkenazi Levites.

At last we'll have the solution also for hg. R-Z2105, because they tested many Jewish R-Z2105 and we'll be able to see their relation with Europeans and with me too who are in that line.
Anyway the time of hg. R are what I have said: many thousands of years. We'll be able to count them exactly.

Humanist
12-22-2013, 10:23 AM
Thanks to a friend for letting me know about another case of Q1b.


N=119--(12/05/13)
25.2%--R1b
17.6%--J1
15.1%--T
14.3%--J2
7.6%--E1b1b1
7.6%--G
4.2%--Q1b
4.2%--R2a
1.7%--R1a
0.8%--F
0.8%--L
0.8%--I2


A decent number of Assyrians from Iran are included in the above sample of 119 Assyrians. Was just looking over the Grugni et al. (2012) Assyrian data from Urmia, and I still find myself doing a double take. However, these results are not as unbelievable as they may have once appeared.

R1a1a*-10.3
R1*-5.1
R*-2.6
C3-2.6
Q1*-2.6
Q1b1-2.6

newtoboard
12-22-2013, 12:59 PM
A decent number of Assyrians from Iran are included in the above sample of 119 Assyrians. Was just looking over the Grugni et al. (2012) Assyrian data from Urmia, and I still find myself doing a double take. However, these results are not as unbelievable as they may have once appeared.

R1a1a*-10.3
R1*-5.1
R*-2.6
C3-2.6
Q1*-2.6
Q1b1-2.6

Why? I doubt it is actual R* or R1*.

Or even actual M417* although that is more likely than the others.

nkernow
12-23-2013, 09:48 AM
Has there been any testing for M582?

Humanist
12-24-2013, 05:33 PM
Has there been any testing for M582?

In Rootsi et al. Of the Assyrian R1a. But he was Z2122 (xM582).

Silesian
01-11-2014, 03:00 PM
At last I decided to use my Geno 2.0 kit for my relative Federighi and it has been posted yesterday to Houston (Texas).
MHK97 Federighi Santa Maria a Monte, Pisa, Italy
12 25 14 10 11 14 11 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 24 15 20 29 15 15 16 16 10 10 19 23 16 12 12 11 12 12 23 10 13 12 12 13 30 24
TKCMA Urovish Poland
12 24 14 10 11 14 11 12 12 13 14 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 15 16 12 10 19 23 16 16 17 18 38 39 12 12 12 11 12 12 23 10 13 12 12 12 30 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 10 21 23 16 10 12 12 14 8 22 20 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 9 11 15 9 16 12 10 12 12 11 10 12 12 11 10 26 26 19 12

The closest to Federighi is
1 14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 11 15 20 16 16 23 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 M343
1 of 165 Nicaragua [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
at a GD of 1: DYS391=11 instead of 10 and H4=10+1.
1 14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 20 16 18 23 11 20 22 14 14 17 10 - >>
1 of 162 London, United Kingdom [English] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
This sample from UK has DYS458=18.
The other values (20 22 14 14 17 10) aren't tested on Federighi.
Other closer values to investigate are these:
14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 23 11 4 >>
14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 20 23 12 3 >>
14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 11 15 20 23 11 1 >>
--------------------------------------------------------------
The closest to Urovish and all the Jewish R-M269 cluster are these:
14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 17 16 23 11 1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 17 16 23 11 17 22 13 12 18 11 - >>
This is a close match. About these values (17 22 13 12 18 11 )
DYS576= 17 (Urovish 17)
DYS481= 22 (Urovish 22)
DYS549= 13 (Urovish 12)
DYS533= 12 (Urovish 12)
DYS570= 18 (Urovish 18)
DYS643= 11 (Urovish 10)
there are two differences: DYS549 and DYS643, anyway close: difference of 1.
Other close haplotypes are these:
1 of 100 Budapest, Hungary [Hungarian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 11 1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 11 17 22 12 12 18 10

1 of 84 Vilnius, Lithuania [Lithuanian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
It is very likely that these haplotypes belong to Jews, seen also the places of origin, i.e. where the most part of the Ashkenazim lived.
But if we change only the values of DYS456 and DYD458, we have these samples:

14 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 11 1 >>
14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 12 1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 12 19 24 12 12 18 10 - >>
1 of 244 Poznan, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
They seem close, but the 6 markers added are very different:
19 24 12 12 18 10
as to
17 22 12 12 18 10
Which are the conclusions? If these haplotypes from YHRD are R-M269+/L150+/PF7558/62/63+, the variance of the European clusters is higher than the Jewish ones, i.e. the Jewish haplotype (which is only one with a few mutations happened in a range if a few centuries) is introgressed from European people.
The test on Federighi will try to answer about the origin of this European haplogroup, whose we already have a few samples from the Balkans to the Isles.

Of course we have a differing of opinion. I believe that both L584+ and L277+ are born from European R1b branches. We shall learn more as the Druze and Alawite samples are shown. In my opinion the Assyrian is just Iraqi with no special significant R1b signature, and with ANE admixture, they most likely they will be shown Iranian Turkish and Armenian R1b, as for the other Assyrian which are really Iraqi non R1b clades G1 J1 and J2a being most likely Arab and Jewish, but we shall have to wait and see with finer snp testing. Federighi is special and does not fit the L150 a or L150b which are the 2 special R1b Jewish sitr signature in Z2105 branch and show that they practiced endogamy in their small R1b Z2105 community, which makes them very special in our Z2105+ group just my opion. Anyway you can see very easy the difference DYS 426 combined with DYS 392.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=yresults

Humanist
01-11-2014, 11:04 PM
In my opinion the Assyrian is just Iraqi with no special significant R1b signature, and with ANE admixture, they most likely they will be shown Iranian Turkish and Armenian R1b, as for the other Assyrian which are really Iraqi non R1b clades G1 J1 and J2a being most likely Arab and Jewish, but we shall have to wait and see with finer snp testing.

Interesting take. So, according to you, Assyrians are a relatively recent composite, made up of Jewish, Iraqi Arab, Armenian, Turkish, and Iranian lines. So, you are basically saying that Assyrians are among the youngest populations in all of the Near East?

newtoboard
01-11-2014, 11:08 PM
Interesting take. So, according to you, Assyrians are a relatively recent composite, made up of Jewish, Iraqi Arab, Armenian, Turkish, and Iranian lines. So, you are basically saying that Assyrians are among the youngest populations in all of the Near East.

The fact that Assyrians speak a language with a more ancient presence in Mesopotamia than almost all those languages supports the opposite theory. If that is what Silesian meant he is very misinformed.

Humanist
01-11-2014, 11:14 PM
The fact that Assyrians speak a language with a more ancient presence in Mesopotamia than almost all those languages supports the opposite theory. If that is what Silesian meant he is very misinformed.

Well, unfortunately, for whatever reason, some individuals do not take the collective record into consideration.

Humanist
01-16-2014, 09:37 PM
N=120--(1/16/14)
25.0% -- R1b
17.5% -- J1
15.0% -- T
14.2% -- J2
7.5% -- E1b1b1
7.5% -- G
4.2% -- R2a
4.2% -- Q1b
2.5% -- R1a
0.8% -- F
0.8% -- L
0.8% -- I2

Alanson
01-16-2014, 11:43 PM
The most interesting thing is that the Marsh Arabs show similar Y-lineages to that of Assyrians, and so it refutes their Persian origins. As for the Alwaites, their sect actually originated in southern Iraq in Basra and it was an off shoot of the main stream 12er Shias. This movement was very unsuccessful in gaining followers in Iraq so traveled to Northern Syria where the locals are believed to have been Christians originally and adopted this sect. Alwaitism is quite different from the Turkish Alevi, as the history of the other movement is quite different. Although they share the same name their different movements, and theological concepts. Alevism for example is more influenced by Zoroastriansim and elements of Shamanism, well Alwaitism is influenced by Christian and Levantine pre-Islamic traditions. In many cases the Alwaite sect took on an ethno-religious grouping and conversions to the faith are not accepted. This is unlike mainstream Shia sects who do and encourage conversions.

Ahaddad
01-16-2014, 11:47 PM
N=120--(1/16/14)
25.0% -- R1b
17.5% -- J1
15.0% -- T
14.2% -- J2
7.5% -- E1b1b1
7.5% -- G
4.2% -- R2a
4.2% -- Q1b
2.5% -- R1a
0.8% -- F
0.8% -- L
0.8% -- I2

This R1a it's me Humanist?

Humanist
01-17-2014, 12:02 AM
This R1a it's me Humanist?

Yes. I have added your Geno 2.0 reported haplogroup result to the frequency.

vettor
01-17-2014, 12:16 AM
N=120--(1/16/14)
25.0% -- R1b
17.5% -- J1
15.0% -- T
14.2% -- J2
7.5% -- E1b1b1
7.5% -- G
4.2% -- R2a
4.2% -- Q1b
2.5% -- R1a
0.8% -- F
0.8% -- L
0.8% -- I2

of the 15% of T .....what portion is T1a2 line ?

Humanist
01-17-2014, 12:38 AM
of the 15% of T .....what portion is T1a2 line ?

I can't really say, as there are a good number of men with 23andMe's "T" included.

Humanist
01-23-2014, 04:08 AM
N=121 (01/22/14)
24.8% -- R1b
17.4% -- J1
14.9% -- T
14.0% -- J2
7.4% -- E1b1b1
7.4% -- G
4.1% -- R2a
4.1% -- Q1b
2.5% -- R1a
1.7% -- F
0.8% -- L
0.8% -- I2

Humanist
01-23-2014, 04:25 AM
The most interesting thing is that the Marsh Arabs show similar Y-lineages to that of Assyrians...

Yes. Specifically, our J1* lines. When it comes to modern Arabic-speaking populations, and excluding the Alawites, the Arabians of the Gulf are the populations we share most in common with, as far as Y-DNA lines are concerned. My belief is that these lines may have entered our communities in the 1st millennium BCE or the very early centuries CE. See "Chaldea," below, as a possible point of nexus, between Assyrian communities and modern Gulf Arabian communities:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Chaldea_-_Map_-_The_Countries_around_Chaldea.png

ZephyrousMandaru
01-23-2014, 05:02 AM
Yes. Specifically, our J1* lines. When it comes to modern Arabic-speaking populations, and excluding the Alawites, the Arabians of the Gulf are the populations we share most in common with, as far as Y-DNA lines are concerned. My belief is that these lines may have entered our communities in the 1st millennium BCE or the very early centuries CE. See "Chaldea," below, as a possible point of nexus, between Assyrian communities and modern Gulf Arabian communities:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Chaldea_-_Map_-_The_Countries_around_Chaldea.png

Humanist, do you think that this might apply to mtDNA frequencies as well? I noticed that when you posted that mtDNA Neighbor-Joining Tree, it seemed that Yemeni Jews were pretty close. Even closer than the other Jewish populations, who are autosomally more alike the Assyrians than Yemeni Jews are.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/457x354q90/109/1e1u.jpg

Humanist
01-23-2014, 05:40 AM
Humanist, do you think that this might apply to mtDNA frequencies as well? I noticed that when you posted that mtDNA Neighbor-Joining Tree, it seemed that Yemeni Jews were pretty close. Even closer than the other Jewish populations, who are autosomally more alike the Assyrians than Yemeni Jews are.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/457x354q90/109/1e1u.jpg

Not necessarily. A possible explanation is that the relationships are affected by the fact that Georgian, Uzbek, and Azeri Jewish groups are more recent communities, with minimal founders. Although, according to studies, the Yemeni Jewish matriarchs were not many in number either.

On a related note, see below, for a past post on an Assyrian and Yemeni Jewish mtDNA link:


Characterization of mitochondrial DNA control region lineages in Iraq
Int J Legal Med. 2012
Al-Zahery et al.


Assyrian HV1b1 IRQ038 16067T 16274A 263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C

Counting the founders: the matrilineal genetic ancestry of the Jewish Diaspora
PLoS ONE 3 (4), e2062 (2008)
Behar et al.


The Yemenite Jewish community is thought to have been established in the second century CE. Here we found that 42.0% of the mtDNA variation in this community can be attributed to 5 women carrying mtDNAs that belong to sub-branches of Hgs R0a1c, R2a, HV1b, L3x1a and U1a2. While these Hgs, except L3x1a, can be considered as a part of the general West Asian mtDNA genetic pool, they have higher frequencies in East Africa and Yemen [10].

10% of the Yemenite Jews in Behar et al. 2008 carried the HV1b1 haplotype: 16067 16274 263

Ian Logan's GenBank page for HV, lists only the following HV1b1 sample (it is a Yemeni Jewish individual from Behar):

HV1b1 2626 3687 4739 7598 16274

37. EF556182 Behar 2008 HV1b1 22-APR-2008 A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A750G A1438G T2626C A2706G C3687T C4739T A4769G C7028T G7598A A8014T A8860G T12696C A15218G A15326G C16067T G16274A

Also, in the FTDNA Assyrian Project, there is this Assyrian HV1b1:

(Kit #90492) - 16067T 16274A 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C

Humanist
01-27-2014, 06:40 PM
I can't find the chart at 1:11, do you know where it is?


The Y-DNA chart is a bit old (~ 4 years), but not much has changed. This was still at the point where I had not yet excluded all non-Assyrian samples from the Assyrian Project.


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/Arm_Asy_y_625.jpg


I will continue searching for the specific mtDNA chart that Peter discussed in the presentation, but this mtDNA chart, which is about 3 years old, tells the same story:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/arm_asy_mtdna_9_24_11.jpg


This next image was based on Dodecad Population Portraits from a couple of years ago (it is discussed at about the 1:15:05 mark):

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/ME_Mosaic.jpg

Joe B
01-27-2014, 07:03 PM
The Y-DNA chart is a bit old (~ 4 years), but not much has changed. This was still at the point where I had not yet excluded all non-Assyrian samples from the Assyrian Project.


http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/Arm_Asy_y_625.jpg


I will continue searching for the specific mtDNA chart that Peter discussed in the presentation, but this mtDNA chart, which is about 3 years old, tells the same story:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/arm_asy_mtdna_9_24_11.jpg


This next image was based on Dodecad Population Portraits from a couple of years ago (it is discussed at about the 1:15:05 mark):

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/ME_Mosaic.jpg
The Y-DNA haplogroup distribution comparison is remarkable in the similarities between the Armenians and Assyrians. Do you think that will be true on the subclade level too?
The Assyrian Heritage DNA Project - Y-DNA Colorized Chart (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) is looking good. Wish all the others were that orderly.

Humanist
01-27-2014, 07:37 PM
The Y-DNA haplogroup distribution comparison is remarkable in the similarities between the Armenians and Assyrians.

I think, when you have two groups that have been neighbors for, perhaps 2000-3000 years*, such similarities are to be expected. Though, I know where you are coming from. Because, like you, I was also taken aback by the similarities when I first compared the populations. It is difficult not to. But, once you begin digging into the history and geography, it begins to make sense, I believe.

*

e.g.

Urartu, Assyria and "buffer" states (image from a paper by Dr. Karen Radner)

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/rradner_subria_buffer.jpg

Modified by me (rough modern borders drawn)

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/MapMesopotamia2_mapopb41-1.jpg

Source unknown

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/map3.gif

Modified by me (Assyrians and Azeris added)

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/Maps_of_the_Armenian_Empire_of_Tigranes_mtdna_map1 .jpg


Wikipedia

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/roman_empire_assyria_provincia.jpg

Humanist
01-30-2014, 11:57 AM
The individual "Toma" (English: Thomas) is Assyrian. Interestingly, his Y-DNA G2 category "G2a2b2a1f...DYS19=17" includes both Jewish and British men:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/G_Toma.jpg

alan
01-30-2014, 01:06 PM
In interpreting the various y lineages shared among the Armenians and Assyrians we have to look at the age of the lines to see where they might fit into the history of the region. The whole Z2105 clade is generally dated by STRs to about 3500BC while SNP dating probably ranges from similar back to 5500BC.

Regardless, this clade looks many thousands of years younger than the early farmers in these regions. I dont think this clade and its ancestors have the sort of branching at the right sort of dates to make this a south-west Asian rooted Neolithic clade unless we are talking the extreme north fringes of SW Asia where farming arrived late.

In general, given that this clade is also shared by SE Europeans, its main brother clade L51 is almost entirely European, its cousin clade M269* shows well in Europe and its distant cousin clade M73 is largely Urals-central Asian, I doubt that this clade was in SW Asia in the Neolithic. It seems likely to me that Z2105 is an intrusive copper age clade from either Europe or the northern fringes of SW Asia. Its intrusion cannot be any earlier than the clade date itself (say c. 5500-3500BC).

I still believe it was most likely introduced into the region in the copper age and that this fits the multiple suspected bronze age waves from there - Hittites, Luwians, Phrygians, Armenians etc.

It is interesting that out of those groups the only still living group, Armenians, does have a lot of that clade and that the other group who share it are their co-religionists and neighbours the Assyrians. We cannot really say much about the others so the Armenians are important in this. I dont put much stall by the autosomal aspect as the Armenians were a thin elite. I would still feel that this clade has a link to the Anatolian and palaeobalkans IE groups whose only living representative in Asia is the Armenians.

I just find it close to impossible to explain the overall picture of L23 derived clades as an out of Asia thing given the copper age clade dates and the lack of evidence of copper age intrusions into Europe from SW Asia.

Humanist
01-30-2014, 02:06 PM
I still believe it was most likely introduced into the region in the copper age and that this fits the multiple suspected bronze age waves from there - Hittites, Luwians, Phrygians, Armenians etc.

Please see my previous post, below. Linguists have identified possible (probable ?) Akkadian, and even Old Persian influences in our vernacular. Not Armenian. It is possible, at least some, or perhaps a significant part of our R-L23 frequency may have arrived on the heels of individuals speaking the NW Semitic language of Aramaic. It is possible, that at least some of the R-L23 lines now observed in Armenians and Assyrians were responsible for the " Indo-Europeanization" of the former, and the "Aramaization" of the latter some time during the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age.


Wikipedia


The states that are called Neo-Hittite, or more recently Syro-Hittite, or Aramean (after the Arameans and the Aramaic language), were Luwian, Aramaic and Phoenician-speaking political entities of the Iron Age in northern Syria and southern Anatolia that arose following the collapse of the Hittite Empire around 1180 BC and which lasted until roughly 700 BC. The term "Neo-Hittite" is sometimes reserved specifically for the Luwian-speaking principalities like Milid and Carchemish, although in a wider sense the broader cultural term "Syro-Hittite" is now applied to all the entities that arose in south-central Anatolia following the Hittite collapse — such as Tabal and Quwê — as well as those of northern and coastal Syria.[1]

The vast Hittite empire at its maximum expansion in the lands of central Anatolia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Map_Hittite_rule_en.svg/300px-Map_Hittite_rule_en.svg.png


Historical map of the Neo-Hittite ["Aramaean"] states, c. 800 BCE. Borders are approximate only.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/NeoHittiteStates.gif

Humanist
01-30-2014, 06:12 PM
Northwest Semitic speakers becoming "Assyrian" in the 1st millennium BCE. What possible haplogroups would men living in what is today NW Syria/S Turkey have carried in the 1st millennium BCE? Too bad about the dearth of ancient Y-DNA from the region.


[C]ontemporary text sources support the notion that the deportees were treated well, as attested for example in a letter from an Assyrian official to his king Tiglath-pileser III (744-727 BC):


As for the Aramaeans about whom the king my lord has written to me: 'Prepare them for their journey!' I shall give them their food supplies, clothes, a waterskin, a pair of shoes and oil. I do not have my donkeys yet, but once they are available, I will dispatch my convoy.

(NL 25 = SAA 19 17)

That the state continued to support the deportees once they had reached their destination is clear from another letter of the same author:


As for the Aramaeans about whom the king my lord has said: 'They are to have wives!' We found numerous suitable women but their fathers refuse to give them in marriage, claiming: 'We will not consent unless they can pay the bride price.' Let them be paid so that the Aramaeans can get married. (NL 26 = SAA 19 18)

Karen Radner, 'Mass deportation: the Assyrian resettlement policy (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sargon/essentials/governors/massdeportation/)', Assyrian empire builders, University College London, 2012

MfA
01-30-2014, 06:51 PM
Northwest Semitic speakers becoming "Assyrian" in the 1st millennium BCE. What possible haplogroups would men living in what is today NW Syria/S Turkey have carried in the 1st millennium BCE? Too bad about the dearth of ancient Y-DNA from the region.


Considering E-M84's estimated origin is in between what is now southeastern Turkey and north Syria, I assume those folks had plenty.

Humanist
01-30-2014, 07:33 PM
Any theories about how and when Assyrians gained their high L23 count. My own pet theory is that it came south along the trade lines between Maykop, north Iran and the Uruk expansion group around 3500BC not long after the clade came into existence. From there is became part of the Mesopotamian population


My opinion is that it may be more recent, perhaps no older than ~3500 years ago (~1500 BCE), and may be associated with the emergence of Mitanni-Hurrians and the Middle Assyrians. Despite their claims of continuity, the Middle Assyrians were not necessarily the descendants of the "Old Assyrians." However, there is reason to believe that the Neo Assyrians were the descendants of the Middle Assyrians. Well, at least as far as their royals are concerned.

I have been consistent with my opinion over the years that R-L23 (R-L584, R-L277, etc.) may not be exceedingly old in the region. My comments from before, that it may have been a late Bronze Age, or Iron Age entrant is not altogether inconsistent with what I stated several months previously (please see above).

Humanist
01-30-2014, 08:47 PM
Considering E-M84's estimated origin is in between what is now southeastern Turkey and north Syria, I assume those folks had plenty.

Y-DNA E may be a significant haplogroup among members of the Syriac Orthodox Church and Chaldean Catholic Church. Less so among members of the "Nestorian" Church.

On a related note, one of the very few S Iraqi Mandaeans to be tested, is probably E-V13.

newtoboard
01-31-2014, 01:25 PM
I have been consistent with my opinion over the years that R-L23 (R-L584, R-L277, etc.) may not be exceedingly old in the region. My comments from before, that it may have been a late Bronze Age, or Iron Age entrant is not altogether inconsistent with what I stated several months previously (please see above).

I just find it hard to believe that the most common Y-DNA in a group was accompanied by such a low autosomal impact (Assyrians score less than 2% Northern European and Armenians less than 5% and this doesn't leave any room for R1a and I2a lineages to have had an impact on this component). The reasonable explanation would be that R1b groups mixed with Balkan groups on their way to West Asia but Assyrians don't exhibit Balkan lineages at any significant frequency (I'm thinking I2a, E-V13, J2b here) and have negative values for WHG . And correct me if I'm wrong but STR and SNP diversity don't support Assyrian (and Armenian) R1b coming from a small handful of men who had extreme success spreading their lineage. What is going on here?

Humanist
01-31-2014, 01:44 PM
I just find it hard to believe that the most common Y-DNA in a group was accompanied by such a low autosomal impact (Assyrians score less than 2% Northern European and Armenians less than 5% and this doesn't leave any room for R1a and I2a lineages to have had an impact on this component).

I agree with you. It is hard to believe that the primary haplogroup observed in Assyrians and Armenians could have left little to no trace as far as autosomal DNA is concerned (e.g. I am from the "Nestorian" church and register 0% "North European" in Globe 13). We still do not have a good grasp of how far the "North European" component had traveled in ancient times.


The reasonable explanation would be that R1b groups mixed with Balkan groups on their way to West Asia but Assyrians don't exhibit Balkan lineages at any significant frequency (I'm thinking I2a, E-V13, J2b here) and have negative values for WHG . And correct me if I'm wrong but STR and SNP diversity don't support Assyrian (and Armenian) R1b coming from a small handful of men who had extreme success spreading their lineage. What is going on here?

You make strong arguments. And you are correct. There is not a lack of STR diversity in either group. As far as SNP diversity is concerned, we do not know yet, as testing of Assyrians has been concentrated in only one group, members of the "Nestorian" church. And, even in that group, SNP testing pales in comparison to what has been accomplished in other groups, such as many European populations, Armenians, and others.

Silesian
01-31-2014, 03:28 PM
Assyrians are not listed in this scientific study however Armenians are. It would be nice to see calculated Assyrian R1b and ANE frequencies as shown in this scientific study of extinct R found in the archaeological site of Mal’ta
page 55:autosomal; note the blue and green found in Armenians,
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nature12736-s1.pdf

It would be also interesting to see a map with R1b frequencies and ANE [Ancestral North Eurasion] frequencies in the geographic region of the Assyrians and Armenians. :)

alan
01-31-2014, 03:48 PM
I think most common but not really ancient clade of say copper and bronze age origin do speak of big expansions of male lineages at the expense of others in an already well settled area. Its not like the first farmers scenario where gradual fanning out of families across land not previously farmed gave them a simple advantage. To enter into an area that had been farmed for 4000 year or more and still prolifically grow is easiest to interpret in terms of elite dominance, which can often be male-only.

In terms of Armenians they may have had a number of stages of autosomal DNA dilution long before they reached Armenia. I believe the Herodotus story of previous phases of Armenian existence in Thrace and Phrygia only then Armenian does tally well with the grouping of Armenian into the palaeolbalkan group. So, even the male elite may have been very much altered before arrival. Then add thousands of year in an entirely different breeding pool and I think its entirely possible for there to be extremely little autosomal impact.

Another thing is we do not yet know whether IE elite originally were largely ANE or more northern European. I am suspicious that a lot of the WHG was only slowly absorbed from older groups they encountered in eastern Europe and this may have been very variable. So, it is possible that looking for a classic northern European WHG signal may not apply to all IE groups.

This is admittedly very subjective but look at the Hittites. They are certainly early IEs but they are clearly depicted in a way that makes them look non-European. This, although tentative, is an indicator that their autosomal DNA may have been radically altered in Anatolia. Or perhaps they never had much WHG and were more of a case of an ANE people splitting off early before much mixing with WHG and then absorbing a lot of farming genes in the Balkans and Anatolia.


I just find it hard to believe that the most common Y-DNA in a group was accompanied by such a low autosomal impact (Assyrians score less than 2% Northern European and Armenians less than 5% and this doesn't leave any room for R1a and I2a lineages to have had an impact on this component). The reasonable explanation would be that R1b groups mixed with Balkan groups on their way to West Asia but Assyrians don't exhibit Balkan lineages at any significant frequency (I'm thinking I2a, E-V13, J2b here) and have negative values for WHG . And correct me if I'm wrong but STR and SNP diversity don't support Assyrian (and Armenian) R1b coming from a small handful of men who had extreme success spreading their lineage. What is going on here?

alan
01-31-2014, 04:37 PM
I suppose the bottom line in my belief is that the date of Z2103 seems to be copper or bronze age and while lots of post-copper age historic peoples of Anatolia and adjacent are suspected to have come from the Balkans (Hitties, Luwian, Phrygians, Armenians, Greeks), I have never come across any movement from or through Anatolia in the copper or Bronze Age that would explain European Z2103 or indeed L23 derived R1b as a whole in Europe. My opinion would be different if Z2103 was singificant older and could be tied to Neolithic movements into Europe but very few people, even using the SNP counting push Z2105 later than the copper age. There is simply no evidence of an out of Anatolia or SW Asia movement capable of explaining L23 derived R1b in Europe in copper age or post-copper age times and ancient European Neolithic DNA is very much against any such movement in the Neolithic. So, as it stands, until something else change, I think the weight of archaeological, linguistic and historic evidence would suggest a move into Anatolia and adjacent from Europe, probably from the Balkans but I wouldnt rule out the Caucasus route as having a role and Z2103 in SW Asia having complex multiple, multi-route origins.

I think this is something to bear in mind when variance is considered. There are easily 7 or 8 (probably more) ethnic or cultural groups recorded in history who are suspected to have entered Anatolia and adjacent areas from Europe and whose homelands have a fair amount of Z2103. Its an area with a very complex post-Neolithic ethnic history, far more complex than most areas of Europe. So, if my deduction that it is a post-Neolithic intrusion into the area is correct then Z2103 today is a palimpsest of many inputs, something that will magnify its variance and this could be misleading.

I personally, given the likely age of Z2103 would be pretty amazed if it didnt have a large role in the palaeolbalkans grouping of IE languages.

Joe B
01-31-2014, 05:55 PM
I just find it hard to believe that the most common Y-DNA in a group was accompanied by such a low autosomal impact (Assyrians score less than 2% Northern European and Armenians less than 5% and this doesn't leave any room for R1a and I2a lineages to have had an impact on this component). The reasonable explanation would be that R1b groups mixed with Balkan groups on their way to West Asia but Assyrians don't exhibit Balkan lineages at any significant frequency (I'm thinking I2a, E-V13, J2b here) and have negative values for WHG . And correct me if I'm wrong but STR and SNP diversity don't support Assyrian (and Armenian) R1b coming from a small handful of men who had extreme success spreading their lineage. What is going on here?SNP diversity is one area that needs to be worked on with R1b-Z2103 in the Assyrian and Armenian communities this year. In general, Z2103 has four major forks, L277+, L584+, CTS7822/Z2110+ and unknown SNP branch. Assyrians and Armenians have L277+, L584+ and unknown. We will need to find out if CTS7822/Z2110+ is found in SW Asia.
I'm seeing a lot of STR diversity in the Armenian community and almost as much with the Assyrians*. A complicating factor is that population bottlenecks can mimic a founder effect.
What about the possibility that R1b-Z2103 developed in the Armenian Highlands area rather late and spead out with different communitees from there.
The R1b-Z2103 haplogroup should be named the "What is going on here?" haplogroup.

unknown SNP branch - Z2103+, Z2105+, L277-, L584-, CTS7822/Z2110-
*See post #175 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?615-Assyrian-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=29412&viewfull=1#post29412) and #181 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?615-Assyrian-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=29425&viewfull=1#post29425)

Humanist
01-31-2014, 06:07 PM
I'm seeing a lot of STR diversity in the Armenian community and not so much in the Assyrians.

I have to respectfully disagree regarding the Assyrians/Chaldeans, Joe. Most of these men are from a single church.



12 24 14 10 12 15 12 12 12 12 13 26

12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28

12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28

12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27

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12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29

12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29

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12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30

13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 30

13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30

13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30

Rathna
01-31-2014, 06:22 PM
I have to respectfully disagree regarding the Assyrians/Chaldeans, Joe. Most of these men are from a single church.


It is very likely that they are all R-L277 and R-L584, with some variance, but certainly not at the origin of the haplogroup.
The unique other haplotype is this

12 24 14 10 12 15 12 12 12 12 13 26

I suppose introgressed recently from elsewhere. I'll let you know from where. I think that the Caucasus like place of origin of L23 has more chances. The other place, for me, is the Alps and nearby.

Humanist
01-31-2014, 06:31 PM
It is very likely that they are all R-L277 and R-L584, with some variance, but certainly not at the origin of the haplogroup.

Where do you see me talking about us being at the origin of the haplogroup? This thread is littered with instances of my speculations regarding possible foreign origins of these lines during the Bronze and Iron Age.

Rathna
01-31-2014, 06:33 PM
Where do you see me talking about us being at the origin of the haplogroup? This thread is littered with instances of my speculations regarding possible foreign origins of these lines during the Bronze and Iron Age.

I apologize, but I am reading the thread on hurry. This I have found on YHRD about the first weird haplotype

The closest haplotypes, even though far,are these:
1 14 13 27 24 10 13 12 11,15 12 12 14 18 16 18 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 14 13 27 24 10 13 12 11,15 12 12 15 18 16 17 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 501 Brasilia, Brazil [Admixed Brazilian] Admixed Latin America
1 of 1476 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America

and I apologize again.

Silesian
01-31-2014, 06:33 PM
I have to respectfully disagree regarding the Assyrians/Chaldeans, Joe. Most of these men are from a single church.



12 24 14 10 12 15 12 12 12 12 13 26

12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28

12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28

12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27

12 25 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29

12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29

12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29

12 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30

12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29

12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30

13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 30

13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30

13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
Can you post any ANE [Ancestral North Eurasion] scores like you did for yourself with any of them that have been tested?

Humanist
01-31-2014, 06:42 PM
Can you post any ANE [Ancestral North Eurasion] scores like you did for yourself with any of them that have been tested?

None of those men are me. And, none post on this forum. Plus, most have not tested their autosomal DNA. And the ones that have, are similar to me.

Joe B
01-31-2014, 06:46 PM
I have to respectfully disagree regarding the Assyrians/Chaldeans, Joe. Most of these men are from a single church.



12 24 14 10 12 15 12 12 12 12 13 26

12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28

12 23 12 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 14 28

12 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 14 27

12 25 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29

12 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 14 29

12 26 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29

12 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 30

12 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29

12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30

13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 30

13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30

13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
I stand corrected and should have said relative to the Armenian R1b-Z2103. Certainly the Assyrians/Chaldeans show more STR diversity than most other group's R1b-Z2103 haplotypes. I do think that R1b-Z2103 STR diversity needs to broken down by L277+, L574+, etc.
Much respect back at you!

Silesian
01-31-2014, 06:52 PM
None of those men are me. And, none post on this forum. Plus, most have not tested their autosomal DNA. And the ones that have, are similar to me.
Thank you, I would guess that roughly 6%-7% ANE score would then also be found in R1b Assyrians . Is it all possible you can give an general example? Take for instance their str/snp signature and the general region they are from. I know the data set for Grugni et al [9] was to small but showed 50% of Assyrians in Iran with R1b, have any Assyrians in Iran been tested for autosomal and how do they compare with Urmia region?

Humanist
01-31-2014, 06:59 PM
Thank you, I would guess that roughly 6%-7% ANE score would then also be found in R1b Assyrians . Is it all possible you can give an general example? Take for instance their str/snp signature and the general region they are from. I know the data set for Grugni et al [9] was to small but showed 50% of Assyrians in Iran with R1b, have any Assyrians in Iran been tested for autosomal and how do they compare with Urmia region?

My parents are from Iran. They came to the United States in the 60s and 70s. My father is from Rasht, and my mother is from Tehran.

newtoboard
01-31-2014, 07:00 PM
I think most common but not really ancient clade of say copper and bronze age origin do speak of big expansions of male lineages at the expense of others in an already well settled area. Its not like the first farmers scenario where gradual fanning out of families across land not previously farmed gave them a simple advantage. To enter into an area that had been farmed for 4000 year or more and still prolifically grow is easiest to interpret in terms of elite dominance, which can often be male-only.

In terms of Armenians they may have had a number of stages of autosomal DNA dilution long before they reached Armenia. I believe the Herodotus story of previous phases of Armenian existence in Thrace and Phrygia only then Armenian does tally well with the grouping of Armenian into the palaeolbalkan group. So, even the male elite may have been very much altered before arrival. Then add thousands of year in an entirely different breeding pool and I think its entirely possible for there to be extremely little autosomal impact.

Elite dominance can be male only. But it is unlikely they were completely able to avoid absorbing any local males in the Balkans. It's just not realistic. And it's not like they had some sort of military advantage that later steppe people had. Assyrians have no I lineages and Armenians have some (but more likely arrived with Cimmerians IMO given the distribution among Georgians and high frequency among Kurds). In all likelihood there is no autosomal impact in Armenians given they have Northern European components at less than 5% and R1a/I2a lineages likely account for most of that (since they didn't have to pass through the Balkans/Anatolia but just through the Caucasus) . How is it Assyrians have R1b make up 25% of their lineages have members in their communities show up as 0% Northern European? That is a major question. I'm not buying the idea that is because they were altered multiple times when even South Indian tribals have at least some of the Northern European component. I think Assyrian L23 has more to do with the Caucasus than the Balkans.


Another thing is we do not yet know whether IE elite originally were largely ANE or more northern European. I am suspicious that a lot of the WHG was only slowly absorbed from older groups they encountered in eastern Europe and this may have been very variable. So, it is possible that looking for a classic northern European WHG signal may not apply to all IE groups.

What do you mean? For Asia it looks like ANE likely includes the old autosomal Northern European component in addition to a portion of the West Asian component. In Europe the old Northern European component is likely ANE +WHG. There isn't any WHG in Assyrians. In fact they score negative values. I think the lack of a major WHG component only applies to Indo-Iranians since they were located in the eastern portion of the Western steppe during Yamnaya times. You yourself have mentioned the presence of Epigravettian groups along the NW Black Sea shore multiple times. Every other IE group should have some of the WHG component imo. The Paleobalkan group was likely located west enough to have absorbed WHG through their contacts the Balkans pre Yamnaya and during Yamnaya and they should have absorbed some more when they had to travel through the Balkans.


So, as it stands, until something else change, I think the weight of archaeological, linguistic and historic evidence would suggest a move into Anatolia and adjacent from Europe, probably from the Balkans but I wouldnt rule out the Caucasus route as having a role and Z2103 in SW Asia having complex multiple, multi-route origins.

The Caucasus likely has to be involved because Balkan speakers can't explain Caucasian, Iranian or Central Asian (and IMO Assyrian and a significant portion of Anatolian/Armenian) L23.

vettor
01-31-2014, 07:00 PM
I suppose the bottom line in my belief is that the date of Z2103 seems to be copper or bronze age and while lots of post-copper age historic peoples of Anatolia and adjacent are suspected to have come from the Balkans (Hitties, Luwian, Phrygians, Armenians, Greeks), I have never come across any movement from or through Anatolia in the copper or Bronze Age that would explain European Z2103 or indeed L23 derived R1b as a whole in Europe. My opinion would be different if Z2103 was singificant older and could be tied to Neolithic movements into Europe but very few people, even using the SNP counting push Z2105 later than the copper age. There is simply no evidence of an out of Anatolia or SW Asia movement capable of explaining L23 derived R1b in Europe in copper age or post-copper age times and ancient European Neolithic DNA is very much against any such movement in the Neolithic. So, as it stands, until something else change, I think the weight of archaeological, linguistic and historic evidence would suggest a move into Anatolia and adjacent from Europe, probably from the Balkans but I wouldnt rule out the Caucasus route as having a role and Z2103 in SW Asia having complex multiple, multi-route origins.

I think this is something to bear in mind when variance is considered. There are easily 7 or 8 (probably more) ethnic or cultural groups recorded in history who are suspected to have entered Anatolia and adjacent areas from Europe and whose homelands have a fair amount of Z2103. Its an area with a very complex post-Neolithic ethnic history, far more complex than most areas of Europe. So, if my deduction that it is a post-Neolithic intrusion into the area is correct then Z2103 today is a palimpsest of many inputs, something that will magnify its variance and this could be misleading.

I personally, given the likely age of Z2103 would be pretty amazed if it didnt have a large role in the palaeolbalkans grouping of IE languages.

maybe you need to check what part did the cimmerians play in there migration to cappodacia in anatolia, granted its after the hittites, but not that long after.

and
R1b came from KLT and the DYF395S1 of 17-17 - results for T, L, Q and R1a all have 16-17 or 17-17
contrasting with modal 15-16 for R1b.
Where was the split for R1b, was it anatolia/south caucasus?

newtoboard
01-31-2014, 07:07 PM
My thinking is the bulk of Armenian/Assyrian R1b has more to do with the Caucasus. Or it did come from the Balkans but the Balkans lacked WHG andI2 during the migration of R1b from the Balkans to West Asia. How valid is the idea that the bulk of WHG and I2 in the Balkans is of Slavic origin?

newtoboard
01-31-2014, 07:09 PM
maybe you need to check what part did the cimmerians play in there migration to cappodacia in anatolia, granted its after the hittites, but not that long after.

and
R1b came from KLT and the DYF395S1 of 17-17 - results for T, L, Q and R1a all have 16-17 or 17-17
contrasting with modal 15-16 for R1b.
Where was the split for R1b, was it anatolia/south caucasus?

Thanks for bringing them up. I wonder if Cimmerians might explain some of the Iranian/Kurdish R1b. Although it is more likely Cimmerians carried a mixture of R1a-Z93, R1a-Z282+ , I2a-DIN and I2c-B.

Silesian
01-31-2014, 07:10 PM
How is it Assyrians have R1b make up 25% of their lineages have members in their communities show up as 0% Northern European? That is a major question. I'm not buying the idea that is because they were altered multiple times when even South Indian tribals have at least some of the Northern European component. I think Assyrian L23 has more to do with the Caucasus than the Balkans.
What was the name of the Arabian bedouin tribe that has a high amount of R1a [Shammar] 30% 40%? They should have some North European right, would you like to show us? If your theory is strong they should have more [North European 5%] -25% R1b than the Armenian/Assyrian region. Something does not add up would you like to explain?

Humanist
01-31-2014, 07:17 PM
What was the name of the Arabian bedouin tribe that has a high amount of R1a [Shammar] 30% 40%? They should have some North European right, would you like to show us? If your theory is strong they should have more [North European 5%] -25% R1b than the Armenian/Assyrians.

If they are related to the "Bedouin" below, then they would display greater "North European" than Assyrians.


Much has been said on the various fora, over the years, regarding the level of "African" in Arab populations, as compared to neighboring minority populations. Another interesting question is the source (or sources) of the "North European" component(s) detected in Arab populations. Any ideas on its origin? Indo-Iranian speaking peoples? Crusaders? European slaves? Or, is there any argument that it is a native ancestral component? I am also including N and E African populations in the below list of Globe 13 "North European" values of many of the ME populations included in the Globe 13 run:

Blue = ME
Green = N Africa
Red = E Africa


North_European
7 Moroccan_D

6 Algerian_D

5 Lebanese

3 Bedouin <---
3 Syrians

2 Moroccans
2 Saudis

1 Jordanians
1 Yemenese
1 Palestinian
1 Druze

0 Yemen_Jews
0 Samaritan_All
0 Ethiopians
0 Egyptians
0 Somali_D
0 Mozabite
0 Iraq_Jews
0 Iranian_Jews
0 Assyrian_D <---

newtoboard
01-31-2014, 07:27 PM
What was the name of the Arabian bedouin tribe that has a high amount of R1a [Shammar] 30% 40%? They should have some North European right, would you like to show us? If your theory is strong they should have more [North European 5%] -25% R1b than the Armenian/Assyrian region. Something does not add up would you like to explain?


-They do have more. Where do you get 5% Northern European from Assyrians for? That isn't the case. Did you just pick the higher number for either Assyrians or Armenians and apply it to both? (Armenians unlike Assyrians have R1a-Z93*, R1a-Z282+ , I2a-DIN and I2c-B lineages so more Northern European isn't surprising).

Even if they didn't have more this was a pretty bad comparison.

-You are comparing nomadic vs settled populations even though nomadic populations are often subject to drift and founder effects (one just needs to look at the overall dominance of J1 in Arabs, R1a in the Kyrgyz and R1b in Bashkirs).
-R1a likely entered Bedouin tribes much later than the Iron or Bronze Age.
-I think the bulk of Bedouin R1a is L657+ (they have diversity but the bulk of it is L657+) with not too much STR diviersity in that (Parsar would know more about this) so unlike in the case of Assyrian/Armenian R1b, the bulk of Arab R1a might be the reult of just a small handful of men whose lineage ended up being really successful.

alan
01-31-2014, 07:56 PM
I think R1b was very capable of expanding with very little inclusion of other male lineages. that seems to be it pattern in western Europe anyway.


Elite dominance can be male only. But it is unlikely they were completely able to avoid absorbing any local males in the Balkans. It's just not realistic. And it's not like they had some sort of military advantage that later steppe people had. Assyrians have no I lineages and Armenians have some (but more likely arrived with Cimmerians IMO given the distribution among Georgians and high frequency among Kurds). In all likelihood there is no autosomal impact in Armenians given they have Northern European components at less than 5% and R1a/I2a lineages likely account for most of that (since they didn't have to pass through the Balkans/Anatolia but just through the Caucasus) . How is it Assyrians have R1b make up 25% of their lineages have members in their communities show up as 0% Northern European? That is a major question. I'm not buying the idea that is because they were altered multiple times when even South Indian tribals have at least some of the Northern European component. I think Assyrian L23 has more to do with the Caucasus than the Balkans.



What do you mean? For Asia it looks like ANE likely includes the old autosomal Northern European component in addition to a portion of the West Asian component. In Europe the old Northern European component is likely ANE +WHG. There isn't any WHG in Assyrians. In fact they score negative values. I think the lack of a major WHG component only applies to Indo-Iranians since they were located in the eastern portion of the Western steppe during Yamnaya times. You yourself have mentioned the presence of Epigravettian groups along the NW Black Sea shore multiple times. Every other IE group should have some of the WHG component imo. The Paleobalkan group was likely located west enough to have absorbed WHG through their contacts the Balkans pre Yamnaya and during Yamnaya and they should have absorbed some more when they had to travel through the Balkans.



The Caucasus likely has to be involved because Balkan speakers can't explain Caucasian, Iranian or Central Asian (and IMO Assyrian and a significant portion of Anatolian/Armenian) L23.

Humanist
01-31-2014, 08:05 PM
I think R1b was very capable of expanding with very little inclusion of other male lineages. that seems to be it pattern in western Europe anyway.

Yeah. The R1b story is a fascinating one. I mean, the stories of all haplogroups are fascinating. But, certainly, what R1b managed to do, in what appears to be relatively short period of time based on the data available to us, is rather incredible.

newtoboard
01-31-2014, 08:09 PM
I think R1b was very capable of expanding with very little inclusion of other male lineages. that seems to be it pattern in western Europe anyway.

You mean this is the case for NW Europe. Mainly true for Celtic speaking and (formerly Celtic) speaking regions. Is this really true for Germanic and Italic speaking regions? What lineages could have been assimilated that weren't? When R1b was migrating to Western Europe it is unlikely there were dense farming populations. R1b obviously assimilated a lot of R1a, I1 and I2a2 in Northern Germany and Scandinavia. And parts of SW Europe seem to have a significant representation of Neolithic lineages.

But this isn't about that. This is about how R1b could have pretty much excluded all lineages typical of Balkans. It just doesn't seem realistic.

vettor
01-31-2014, 08:42 PM
I think R1b was very capable of expanding with very little inclusion of other male lineages. that seems to be it pattern in western Europe anyway.

expansion of ydna markers is very fast, as a modern example

my maternal gfather is R1b, he had 5 sons, who have had 19 sons between them ............not many generations............you can easily do the maths on what is to follow

If an ancient R1b marker belonged to some dynastic/lord/chieftain leader who commanded/ruled a concubine , we can easily see a marker mega-multiply very quickly.

Mehrdad
01-31-2014, 08:47 PM
expansion of ydna markers is very fast, as a modern example

my maternal gfather is R1b, he had 5 sons, who have had 19 sons between them ............not many generations............you can easily do the maths on what is to follow

If an ancient R1b marker belonged to some dynastic/lord/chieftain leader who commanded/ruled a concubine , we can easily see a marker mega-multiply very quickly.

Very interesting point you make, and I think that farming also helped a lot. However we should also consider mortality rate for children at the time was pretty high.

ADW_1981
01-31-2014, 09:58 PM
You mean this is the case for NW Europe. Mainly true for Celtic speaking and (formerly Celtic) speaking regions. Is this really true for Germanic and Italic speaking regions? What lineages could have been assimilated that weren't? When R1b was migrating to Western Europe it is unlikely there were dense farming populations. R1b obviously assimilated a lot of R1a, I1 and I2a2 in Northern Germany and Scandinavia. And parts of SW Europe seem to have a significant representation of Neolithic lineages.

But this isn't about that. This is about how R1b could have pretty much excluded all lineages typical of Balkans. It just doesn't seem realistic.

The Balkans has a very low population anyhow, was depopulated during the neolithic collapse, and is predominantly of a related lineage to the hunter gatherer of Loschbour. I haven't read HWL in a few years, but I recall that the hunter-gatherers Anthony mentioned moved in from what is western Russia...this seems like a movement of I2a1b-Din to me. However, he also postulates these are the Indo-European speakers, so I'm not sure that all of this adds up, but then again what do I know?

I agree to an extent with you, R1b couldn't have been all that warlike, or else the I1 folks would have died when the Proto-Germanic speakers moved into northern Germany during the Bronze Age or later. If you look at English data for instance, it's pretty clear that Germanic speakers carried hg I1 which is ultimately derived from hunter gatherers of northern-central Europe.

If R1b wasn't hiding in south of the Alps during the Mesolithic (which is a possibility, think Italy or east Mediterannean) , it must have entered Europe from the east after the Neolithic quite literally stampeding across the continent until it accumulated in the west.

vettor
01-31-2014, 11:54 PM
The Balkans has a very low population anyhow, was depopulated during the neolithic collapse, and is predominantly of a related lineage to the hunter gatherer of Loschbour. I haven't read HWL in a few years, but I recall that the hunter-gatherers Anthony mentioned moved in from what is western Russia...this seems like a movement of I2a1b-Din to me. However, he also postulates these are the Indo-European speakers, so I'm not sure that all of this adds up, but then again what do I know?

I agree to an extent with you, R1b couldn't have been all that warlike, or else the I1 folks would have died when the Proto-Germanic speakers moved into northern Germany during the Bronze Age or later. If you look at English data for instance, it's pretty clear that Germanic speakers carried hg I1 which is ultimately derived from hunter gatherers of northern-central Europe.

If R1b wasn't hiding in south of the Alps during the Mesolithic (which is a possibility, think Italy or east Mediterannean) , it must have entered Europe from the east after the Neolithic quite literally stampeding across the continent until it accumulated in the west.

If as per Mr. Hammer stated, that R-U152 began in modern western central Germany and we know the germans where not that far south in the bronze-age, then the possibility of that marker being Celtic in origin is very probable. With the 27 "royal" celtic skeletons recently found near Frankfurt recently (Glauberg), this further strengths a celtic possibility for R-U152.

IMO , we know the celts crossed into the alps and into Italy, but what about the older R, it surely must have gone via "gallic" France and spread west as well

Rathna
02-01-2014, 06:20 AM
If R1b wasn't hiding in south of the Alps during the Mesolithic (which is a possibility, think Italy or east Mediterranean)

I thank ADW_1981. In the future I will speak no more of an "Italian Refugium" but of a "Refugium South of th Alps".

Silesian
02-01-2014, 06:34 AM
If they are related to the "Bedouin" below, then they would display greater "North European" than Assyrians.
Can you supply the data for the Bedouins in this study, specifically the amount of R1a they found in the samples.
For example Grugni et al found 10.3% R1a in Assyrians? How do you explain O% North European if Grugni et al data set showing 10.3% R1a is reliable?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

Silesian
02-01-2014, 06:41 AM
-They do have more. Where do you get 5% Northern European from Assyrians for? That isn't the case. Did you just pick the higher number for either Assyrians or Armenians and apply it to both? (Armenians unlike Assyrians have R1a-Z93*, R1a-Z282+ , I2a-DIN and I2c-B lineages so more Northern European isn't surprising).

Even if they didn't have more this was a pretty bad comparison.

-You are comparing nomadic vs settled populations even though nomadic populations are often subject to drift and founder effects (one just needs to look at the overall dominance of J1 in Arabs, R1a in the Kyrgyz and R1b in Bashkirs).
-R1a likely entered Bedouin tribes much later than the Iron or Bronze Age.
-I think the bulk of Bedouin R1a is L657+ (they have diversity but the bulk of it is L657+) with not too much STR diviersity in that (Parsar would know more about this) so unlike in the case of Assyrian/Armenian R1b, the bulk of Arab R1a might be the reult of just a small handful of men whose lineage ended up being really successful.
I'm comparing this thread:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1860-High-levels-of-R1a1-and-G2-in-Shammar-Bedouins

The Shimar sample carried two main haplogroups—J1 (at 52.3%) and R1a1 (at 42.8%)—with a small percentage of G2 (4.76%). A historical explanation could be that the Shimar trace their origins to two regions: Iraq (Philby, 1923) and Saudi Arabia. The Shimar resided in northern Najd—currently in Saudi Arabia......It seems that the Shammar R1a1 matches with that of the Ashkenazi Jews rather than with Iranic speakers. However J1 being dominant shows the tribes origins in Arabia and where it claims it descent from Yemen. Interestingly that Shammaris are autosomally the same as Yemenite Jews despite the high levels of so called Indo-European DNA.

Humanist
02-01-2014, 11:46 AM
Can you supply the data for the Bedouins in this study, specifically the amount of R1a they found in the samples.
For example Grugni et al found 10.3% R1a in Assyrians? How do you explain O% North European if Grugni et al data set showing 10.3% R1a is reliable?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

How many times can we go over the same thing (R1a, Grugni et al. Assyrians, "North European"component,etc.)? I have replied to your questions before, in one form or another. I am sorry, but I am no longer going to continue this discussion.

newtoboard
02-01-2014, 12:27 PM
The Balkans has a very low population anyhow, was depopulated during the neolithic collapse, and is predominantly of a related lineage to the hunter gatherer of Loschbour. I haven't read HWL in a few years, but I recall that the hunter-gatherers Anthony mentioned moved in from what is western Russia...this seems like a movement of I2a1b-Din to me. However, he also postulates these are the Indo-European speakers, so I'm not sure that all of this adds up, but then again what do I know?

I agree to an extent with you, R1b couldn't have been all that warlike, or else the I1 folks would have died when the Proto-Germanic speakers moved into northern Germany during the Bronze Age or later. If you look at English data for instance, it's pretty clear that Germanic speakers carried hg I1 which is ultimately derived from hunter gatherers of northern-central Europe.

If R1b wasn't hiding in south of the Alps during the Mesolithic (which is a possibility, think Italy or east Mediterannean) , it must have entered Europe from the east after the Neolithic quite literally stampeding across the continent until it accumulated in the west.

Maybe the population densities of NW Europe were low compared to the rest of Northern Europe. It seems clear R in Northern Europe(and Europe to a smaller extent) had a major advantage over farmer lines as farmer lines are lacking in all of Northern Europe. But the advantage doesn't seem to be as great when compared with Hunter Gatherers. At least that seems to be the case when certain Slavic and Germanic groups have I2-DIN and I1 as their dominant haplogroups (I believe Croatians and Danes). So what was different in NW Europe and parts of Iberia and Spain? Maybe it is related to lactase persistence since milk would probably be a more valuable source of Nutrition in the hills of Scotland or Basque Country than the flat Northern and Eastern European plains.

newtoboard
02-01-2014, 12:44 PM
Can you supply the data for the Bedouins in this study, specifically the amount of R1a they found in the samples.
For example Grugni et al found 10.3% R1a in Assyrians? How do you explain O% North European if Grugni et al data set showing 10.3% R1a is reliable?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg

Who said it is reliable? N=39 isn't very reliable. And neither are your conclusions when somehow the haplogroups of Assyrians in Iran are used to represent all Assyrians. And somehow you are using Assyrians from other regions to represent the autosomal admixture values for Assyrians from Iran. I can't even stress how bad of an idea that is. Small diaspora populations like that are subject to admixture (especially since we know some Iranian converts to Christianity might have have taken on an Assyrian or Armenian identity from past discussions with Humanist). In addition populations like this are subject to drift (see R2 in Georgian Kurds and R1b-P25 in the Kurds of Kazakhstan). Somehow you ignored the Assyrians in Tehran sample showing no R1a which means that more data should acquired before drawing all conclusions.

alan
02-01-2014, 01:27 PM
What is amazing to me is that its not just a huge expansion in one area. That would be easy to envisage. Its a simultaneous geographical expansion in which R1b was able to 'seed' in what must have been a myriad of separate little territories. That IMO is the amazing thing. How did they do that? Its more understandable how a lineage (be that R1a or b) could spread through the steppes, especially an east bound one like Afansievo and essentially move into an empty zone and multiply but it is a lot more incredible that R1b seem on current evidence to have achieved that in well settled areas. The slight pushing back of dates that the Mal'ta and Sardinian data in combination with SNP counting might allow would still


Yeah. The R1b story is a fascinating one. I mean, the stories of all haplogroups are fascinating. But, certainly, what R1b managed to do, in what appears to be relatively short period of time based on the data available to us, is rather incredible.

newtoboard
02-01-2014, 01:39 PM
What is amazing to me is that its not just a huge expansion in one area. That would be easy to envisage. Its a simultaneous geographical expansion in which R1b was able to 'seed' in what must have been a myriad of separate little territories. That IMO is the amazing thing. How did they do that? Its more understandable how a lineage (be that R1a or b) could spread through the steppes, especially an east bound one like Afansievo and essentially move into an empty zone and multiply but it is a lot more incredible that R1b seem on current evidence to have achieved that in well settled areas. The slight pushing back of dates that the Mal'ta and Sardinian data in combination with SNP counting might allow would still
Where is the evidence that R's eastern expansion was into empty zones? The settled areas of Central, West and South Asia likely had some of the highest population densities in the world.

alan
02-01-2014, 01:46 PM
Western Europe was well settled in the Neolithic - totally covered in megalithic tombs etc. It does show that R1b was capable of arriving and hugely hogging resources and breeding. If it could do that some places it could do it in others.

I think there is an essential difference between the way R1a and b operated. R1a I get the feeling was involved in entire population movements. On the steppe whole populations would move as they were a mobile population. In areas like NE and parts of central Europe it clearly mixed with others (corded ware culture) but didnt seem to lead to overwhelming replacement. R1b seems to have operated in a different way, penetrating areas with existing populations in small numbers then somehow going through massive expansions which it didnt share with other male lineage. Call it a different modus operandi. I personally think this difference is rooted in R1b developing a pattern of elite metal controllers, initially on the steppe-farming interface areas (perhaps originated in the Balkan-Sredny Stog metal networks) from 5000BC onwards and then subsequently across a huge area while R1a's expansion seems more likely to be based on the coming of living on wheels and total population movement from 3300BC onwards.


You mean this is the case for NW Europe. Mainly true for Celtic speaking and (formerly Celtic) speaking regions. Is this really true for Germanic and Italic speaking regions? What lineages could have been assimilated that weren't? When R1b was migrating to Western Europe it is unlikely there were dense farming populations. R1b obviously assimilated a lot of R1a, I1 and I2a2 in Northern Germany and Scandinavia. And parts of SW Europe seem to have a significant representation of Neolithic lineages.

But this isn't about that. This is about how R1b could have pretty much excluded all lineages typical of Balkans. It just doesn't seem realistic.

Humanist
02-01-2014, 01:55 PM
N=125__(2/1/04)
24.8% -- R1b
17.6% -- J1
14.4% -- T
13.6% -- J2
8.8% -- G
7.2% -- E1b1b1
4.0% -- R2a
4.0% -- Q1b
2.4% -- R1a
1.6% -- F
0.8% -- L
0.8% -- I2

alan
02-01-2014, 02:17 PM
I was thinking of at a higher latitude -and the open steppe in terms of open space - movements east like Afansievo and later ones like Abashevo etc were almost into open spaces with just light hunter populations. In fact before the take off of wheels, Yamnaya etc all the land between the river valleys in the steppe were virtually empty.

I think there may have been two phases in R1a/b expansion that set long lasting patterns

1. Pre-wheel - In this period steppe people lived in the river valleys and only crossed more open areas probably on horses for trading. The main trade of this period was the Balkans-Sredny Stog link. The Sredny Stog group were very influenced in socio-economic terms by the Balkans and Carpathian farmers and genetically mixed with them. The kind of movement associated with them almost certainly cannot be described as migration and was more to do with trade and network control. I think this could well be the origin of the small specialist metal elite model where an elite/specialist line was adept at penetrating areas, settling small separate aloof enclaves on trade route nodes and them expanding locally. I think in general they were not hostile settlers as they served a function although they perhaps were Trojan Horses in the long term. I see in this a potential deep origin of the sort of approach we see in beakers and R1b much later. The long term interaction and involvement of Sredny Stog groups in the metal trade with the Balkans and their more considerable takeup of farmer traits (and genetic mixing with them) may have predisposed these groups to being able to move into the farming world with relative ease.

2. Pastoralists on wheels. This was a very different fish IMO and they would have been movement of whole populations or large offshoot of them. IMO the main purpose was pasture which suddenly became available in the inter-riverine areas in enormous quantities and which without living on wheels could barely be exploited. This basically commences with Yamnaya c. 3300B. I think this pattern was especially associated with R1a.


Where is the evidence that R's eastern expansion was into empty zones? The settled areas of Central, West and South Asia likely had some of the highest population densities in the world.

alan
02-01-2014, 02:43 PM
The big question i whether than I was a genuine substrate that had survived until the copper age in northern Europe or whether it later moved about into areas where it had long previously died out. I could have been combined with Yamnaya R1a during the genesis of Usatovo or in the Carpathian area during the genesis of corded ware (they two things are related according to Anthony), creating and R1a/I population that swept along with Corded Ware.


Maybe the population densities of NW Europe were low compared to the rest of Northern Europe. It seems clear R in Northern Europe(and Europe to a smaller extent) had a major advantage over farmer lines as farmer lines are lacking in all of Northern Europe. But the advantage doesn't seem to be as great when compared with Hunter Gatherers. At least that seems to be the case when certain Slavic and Germanic groups have I2-DIN and I1 as their dominant haplogroups (I believe Croatians and Danes). So what was different in NW Europe and parts of Iberia and Spain? Maybe it is related to lactase persistence since milk would probably be a more valuable source of Nutrition in the hills of Scotland or Basque Country than the flat Northern and Eastern European plains.

newtoboard
02-01-2014, 02:45 PM
It's unlikely Sredny Stog was homogenous so I don't see how one lineage could have been adapted to metallurgy and the other remained ignorant of it. Especially R1a's SE expansion was related to the metal trade with the civilized people of Central Asia.

newtoboard
02-01-2014, 02:52 PM
The big question i whether than I was a genuine substrate that had survived until the copper age in northern Europe or whether it later moved about into areas where it had long previously died out. I could have been combined with Yamnaya R1a during the genesis of Usatovo or in the Carpathian area during the genesis of corded ware (they two things are related according to Anthony), creating and R1a/I population that swept along with Corded Ware.

That seems unlikely nor does it make sense to see L664 or even Z283 coming from Yamnaya anyways. Plus the distribution of I1/I2a2 is very Germanic. I would have expected some of it to be left behind in the Balkans (it wasn't other than a small amount that can be explained by Germanic movements into SE Europe or some I1 possibly coming from West Slavic populations).

alan
02-01-2014, 03:15 PM
The problem with lineages and dynasties is one can come to dominate and there would be no archaeological signal for it - M222 for example. In the west the beaker-R1b link looks strong and does have one piece of hard evidence. Those beaker-R1b groups were not the only or first people to have metallurgical knowledge of this level. We can see that beaker type level metallurgy, mining etc was known from 3500BC in Italy and soon after in southern France then Iberia. Indeed, there is hard genetic evidence for metal using pre-beaker non-R1b groups in the Alpine Italy (Otzi) and southern France. So, it was not the knowledge per se, it was more the control of the network.



It's unlikely Sredny Stog was homogenous so I don't see how one lineage could have been adapted to metallurgy and the other remained ignorant of it. Especially R1a's SE expansion was related to the metal trade with the civilized people of Central Asia.

Silesian
02-01-2014, 04:52 PM
Who said it is reliable? N=39 isn't very reliable. And neither are your conclusions when somehow the haplogroups of Assyrians in Iran are used to represent all Assyrians. And somehow you are using Assyrians from other regions to represent the autosomal admixture values for Assyrians from Iran. I can't even stress how bad of an idea that is. Small diaspora populations like that are subject to admixture (especially since we know some Iranian converts to Christianity might have have taken on an Assyrian or Armenian identity from past discussions with Humanist). In addition populations like this are subject to drift (see R2 in Georgian Kurds and R1b-P25 in the Kurds of Kazakhstan). Somehow you ignored the Assyrians in Tehran sample showing no R1a which means that more data should acquired before drawing all conclusions.

I hope Humanist can find some time to create a frequency map showing R1b in the region that would be a real treat. I would also like to tap your knowledge and Humanist's of ancient dna found in the region; does any exist? Has there ever been ancient dna found in Semitic or Assyrian archeological sites?

Silesian
02-01-2014, 04:58 PM
How many times can we go over the same thing (R1a, Grugni et al. Assyrians, "North European"component,etc.)? I have replied to your questions before, in one form or another. I am sorry, but I am no longer going to continue this discussion.
No problem; I appreciate your honest and straight forward response. I'm sorry if I have offend you in anyway. I was wondering about the R1a samples in the latest R1a/Ashkenazi Levite study; do you have any knowledge of the level of ANE in the samples R1a?

Humanist
02-01-2014, 05:31 PM
No problem; I appreciate your honest and straight forward response. I'm sorry if I have offend you in anyway. I was wondering about the R1a samples in the latest R1a/Ashkenazi Levite study; do you have any knowledge of the level of ANE in the samples R1a?

You are not offending me. But, like I said, there are only so many times I can reply to the same questions. For the record, I honestly would not mind it if our R1b lines arrived via peoples such as the Scythians, Cimmerians, and what have you. Also, on the topic of R1b/R1a, if you recall, I have also noted some interesting things about the Y-DNA frequencies of the different Armenian regional populations*. So, what I am trying to say is to please stop addressing me as though I am against you. The genetic data, up to this point, is what it is. I try and make sense of it the best I can, while attempting to minimize my own biases.

*

Note the possible correlation between hg1 and hg3.

hg1 (~R1b)

hg3, hg29 (~R1a)


hg1 hg3 hg29
42.8% 5.6% 0.0% Karabakh
40.0% 9.3% 0.0% Syunik
32.1% 1.8% 0.0% Iran
22.7% 0.0% 0.0% Ararat
22.2% 4.2% 0.5% North
22.2% 3.3% 1.1% West

Silesian
02-01-2014, 05:42 PM
You are not offending me. But, like I said, there are only so many times I can reply to the same questions. For the record, I honestly would not mind it if our R1b lines arrived via peoples such as the Scythians, Cimmerians, and what have you. Also, on the topic of R1b/R1a, if you recall, I have also noted some interesting things about the Y-DNA frequencies of the different Armenian regional populations*. So, what I am trying to say is to please stop addressing me as though I am against you. The genetic data, up to this point, is what it is. I try and make sense of it the best I can, while attempting to minimize my own biases.

*

Note the possible correlation between hg1 and hg3.

hg1 (~R1b)

hg3, hg29 (~R1a)


hg1 hg3 hg29
42.8% 5.6% 0.0% Karabakh
40.0% 9.3% 0.0% Syunik
32.1% 1.8% 0.0% Iran
22.7% 0.0% 0.0% Ararat
22.2% 4.2% 0.5% North
22.2% 3.3% 1.1% West

Thanks, is there any ancient dna from ancient Assyrian region [ancient Assur] at all ? Or is anything in the works to be released, it seems their is so little information. For instance you posted your ANE score which is interesting, has there been any such testing on ancient dna from the region; please be patient as I'm quite ignorant to any projects going on in the region, can you enlighten us of any, I'm sure everyone would be thrilled to actually have some results from your ancient homeland region.

newtoboard
02-01-2014, 06:11 PM
You are not offending me. But, like I said, there are only so many times I can reply to the same questions. For the record, I honestly would not mind it if our R1b lines arrived via peoples such as the Scythians, Cimmerians, and what have you. Also, on the topic of R1b/R1a, if you recall, I have also noted some interesting things about the Y-DNA frequencies of the different Armenian regional populations*. So, what I am trying to say is to please stop addressing me as though I am against you. The genetic data, up to this point, is what it is. I try and make sense of it the best I can, while attempting to minimize my own biases.

*

Note the possible correlation between hg1 and hg3.

hg1 (~R1b)

hg3, hg29 (~R1a)


hg1 hg3 hg29
42.8% 5.6% 0.0% Karabakh
40.0% 9.3% 0.0% Syunik
32.1% 1.8% 0.0% Iran
22.7% 0.0% 0.0% Ararat
22.2% 4.2% 0.5% North
22.2% 3.3% 1.1% West

Interesting that you brought up Scythian and Cimmerians. Personally I don't think Scythians or Cimmerians could be responsible for R1b in Assyrians. Scythians originally came from regions east of the Ural River and pushed out the original Cimmerian population that existed in the Don and Volga regions. The Timber Grave Culture formed around the Volga. So both of these populations should be R1a dominated in their original homelands. So Scythians pushed the Cimmerians significantly west of the Don and also started invading West Asia through the Caucasus. So while it is possible some Scythians absorbed R1b later on (once they pushed west of the Don and on into Central Europe and Balkans) the Scythians invading West Asia via the Caucasus probably avoided absorbing R1b lines. Cimmerians were pushed out west as well and likely did absorb some R1b but the issue here is that Cimmerians would have likely carried R1a-Z282+ and I2a1 in addition to Z93. Both of these are found in Kurds and Armenians who live in the regions settled by Cimmerians so it is possible some Kurdish and Armenian R1b can be traced back to Cimmerians. But I don't think Assyrians have these lineages. The reason I think Cimmerians carried these lineages is because in a way it makes sense to think of them as reverse/opposite Indo-Iranians in that they likely formed from Abashevo(derived from Corded Ware) tribes with Poltavka cultural influence while Indo-Iranians formed from Poltavka tribes (derived from Yamnaya) with Abashevo cultural influence.

Also post 469 by Michal in this thread is interesting.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1519-Languages-and-Y-DNA-lineages

Silesian
02-01-2014, 06:34 PM
Scythians originally came from regions east of the Ural River and pushed out the original Cimmerian population that existed in the Don and Volga regions.
Some say there might be a connection between Ashkenaz and the Assyrian name "Ashkuz."

newtoboard
02-01-2014, 06:39 PM
Some say there might be a connection between Ashkenaz and the Assyrian name "Ashkuz."

This little trivia piece has nothing to do with the statement you quoted which is based lon linguistic data as well as historical records.

Silesian
02-01-2014, 06:53 PM
This little trivia piece has nothing to do with the statement you quoted which is based lon linguistic data as well as historical records.
Yeah pretty neat piece of trivia. Where is Uti provence ? Are there any ANE [ancestral north Eurasian] autosomal from this region?

however they were known to the Babylonians as Gimirrai, and both expressions are used synonymously on the trilingual Behistun inscription, carved in 515 BC on the order of Darius the Great.[8] These Scythians were mainly interested in settling in the kingdom of Urartu, which later became Armenia. The district of Shacusen, Uti Province, reflects their name.[9] In ancient Hebrew texts, the Ashkuz (Ashkenaz) are considered to be a direct offshoot from the Gimirri (Gomer).[10]

Humanist
02-01-2014, 07:27 PM
Interesting that you brought up Scythian and Cimmerians. Personally I don't think Scythians or Cimmerians could be responsible for R1b in Assyrians.

I mentioned those populations specifically, because the user to whom I directed the post has suggested, in the past, that R1b observed in the general area of Assyrians may have come from said peoples.

newtoboard
02-01-2014, 07:30 PM
I mentioned those populations specifically, because the user to whom I directed the post has suggested, in the past, that R1b observed in the general area of Assyrians may have come from said peoples.

He is way off base then. I think Silesian also believes R1b in Eastern Europe comes from Scythians despite Scythians being absorbed by Turks and not Europeans and the Z93 to L23 ratios in Eastern Europe being inconsistent with this scenario.

Humanist
02-01-2014, 07:35 PM
Thanks, is there any ancient dna from ancient Assyrian region [ancient Assur] at all ? Or is anything in the works to be released, it seems their is so little information.

No. Regrettably, not*. Of course, testing aDNA from the Neo-Assyrian Empire is one thing, identifying if the remains belonged to a recently made "Assyrian" or a person who had long lived in the Assyrian heartland is an entirely different matter.

*
e.g.

Rich Assyrian grave found beneath the floor in Operation M. (http://blogs.uakron.edu/ziyaret/2012/08/17/rich-assyrian-grave-found-beneath-the-floor-in-operation-m/)


He was quite tall with very robust bones. All of these are preliminary field observations; the skeleton awaits study.


http://blogs.uakron.edu/ziyaret/files/2012/08/IMG_2104.jpg

The researcher's reply to my query:


matney says:
August 18, 2012 at 8:50 am

Hi Paul,

No plans in the immediate future for running any aDNA tests, although the preservation of the bones is good enough that I expect we would be able to get some results. My experience with Early Bronze Age skeletal remains and aDNA from another site is that one really needs a good sized population to interpret the results. Here at Ziyaret Tepe, we have only a few dozen burials – and many of those in poor condition. We need a larger skeletal population. It would be interesting, of course, if we also had comparative populations for aDNA analysis from the Assyrian heartland in northern Iraq, as well as from contemporary Iron Age populations located in southeastern Turkey away from the river’s floodplain.

newtoboard
02-01-2014, 07:40 PM
No. Regrettably, not*. Of course, testing aDNA from the Neo-Assyrian Empire is one thing, identifying if the remains belonged to a recently made "Assyrian" or a person who had long lived in the Assyrian heartland is an entirely different matter.

*
e.g.

Rich Assyrian grave found beneath the floor in Operation M. (http://blogs.uakron.edu/ziyaret/2012/08/17/rich-assyrian-grave-found-beneath-the-floor-in-operation-m/)



The researcher's reply to my query:

Did Assyrians occupy the Zagros regions of Iraq or where those predominantly occupied by pre Iranian people and later by Iranian people?

Humanist
02-01-2014, 07:44 PM
There is also this. I posted about this on another forum, a while back:

Tue, 19 Jun 2012

The DNA of Kurdistan (http://www.hud.ac.uk/news/allstories/thednaofkurdistan.php)


Major Kurdistan project to probe the past of an ancient people

AS Kurdistan forges a new future as an emerging democracy, a major project is underway to unearth the past of its people, who might have been the world’s first farmers. And the University of Huddersfield’s expertise in the analysis of ancient DNA samples is playing a crucial role.

Soran University in Kurdistan – which is a now a self-governing, democratic region – has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with the University of Huddersfield, home to laboratories and a team of researchers headed by Professor Martin Richards (pictured). He is acknowledged as a global leader in the science of archaeogenetics, which combines archaeology and DNA analysis in order to learn more about prehistoric peoples and how they migrated around the world.

The research project initiated by Soran University is named ‘Genetic Ancestry of Kurdish Populations’. PhD and Masters students are being recruited and research will be split between Kurdistan itself and the University of Huddersfield’s state-of-the-art laboratories.

DNA will be extracted from hundreds of samples collected from across Kurdistan and genetic sequencing will be used to gain a greater understanding of the origins of the Kurds, who have had a turbulent history.

Representatives of Soran University visited Huddersfield last year, and there was a reciprocal visit by a party from Huddersfield, who discussed areas of research collaboration. The genetic ancestry project was settled on, and Professor Andrew Ball, who is the University of Huddersfield Pro-Vice Chancellor for Research and Enterprise, visited Kurdistan to sign the MoU. Professor Richards has also visited Kurdistan in February this year to discuss the project and plans are now underway to recruit students and begin the sampling.

“This project is a great departure for us and enormously exciting,” says Professor Richards. “Kurdistan is archaeologically one of the most fascinating regions in the world – it was inhabited first by Neanderthals, escaping from Europe’s cold during the Ice Age, and soon after by modern humans as they came north from their African homeland about 50,000 years ago.

“Not only that, but it was quite possibly the place where people first took up farming, almost twelve thousand years ago. We’re hoping that this work will help us to see if there are traces of those early settlements in the genetic make-up of the modern-day populations of the region.”

Humanist
02-01-2014, 07:49 PM
Did Assyrians occupy the Zagros regions of Iraq or where those predominantly occupied by pre Iranian people and later by Iranian people?

The Assyrians occupied all of what is today Iraq, at one point or another in the Iron Age.

One must remember that the Middle and Neo Assyrians were very much a "northern" people, when speaking of the Middle East. When people attempt to tie them to the Akkadians of the 3rd millennium BCE, or even the "Old Assyrians," I reckon they are not well read in terms of the history, archaeology, linguistics, etc.

http://almashriq.hiof.no/general/400/410/Semitic-Lang-Map.jpg

newtoboard
02-01-2014, 07:58 PM
The Assyrians occupied all of what is today Iraq, at one point or another in the Iron Age.

One must remember that the Middle and Neo Assyrians were very much a "northern" people, when speaking of the Middle East. When people attempt to tie them to the Akkadians of the 3rd millennium BCE, or even the "Old Assyrians," I reckon they are not well read in terms of the history, archaeology, linguistics, etc.

http://almashriq.hiof.no/general/400/410/Semitic-Lang-Map.jpg

I meant more who was the native population of those Zagros rather than who was the ruling class. I always figured the Zagros was home to Hurrian like (who later adopted Iranian languages) people such as the Kassities in the south. I was curious about the situation in the northern portion of the Zagros regions. I could be wrong

I don't think people are that ignorant. Almost everybody seems to know of the Assyrian triangle. Still Assyria is somewhat southern in terms of the Middle East when the majority of the Middle East's population is concentrated in Turkey and Northern Iran.

Humanist
02-01-2014, 08:03 PM
I meant more who was the native population of those Zagros rather than who was the ruling class. I always figured the Zagros was home to Hurrian like (who later adopted Iranian languages) people such as the Kassities in the south. I was curious about the situation in the northern portion of the Zagros regions. I could be wrong

I don't think people are that ignorant. Almost everybody seems to know of the Assyrian triangle. Still Assyria is somewhat southern in terms of the Middle East when the majority of the Middle East's population is concentrated in Turkey and Northern Iran.

Well, then, you give most folks more credit than I do when it comes to Assyrian history.

As for who was native to the general area before Semitic languages arrived (see caveats below), see this past post:

Tell Nader Project / Tell Baqrta Project (2011)
Dr. Konstantinos Kopanias


As literacy dawns over the horizon of prehistory the first ethnic group whom we know to have inhabited the region [Arbil and its environs] are the Hurrians. This is not to say there were not other groups. There almost certainly were. Texts over these millennia relating to the eastern frontiers of Mesopotamia (for instance Ur III administrative documents and the Shemshara archives) contain a large number of personal names whose linguistic affiliation has not yet been established and it is, in my view, probable that parent languages will one be day be recognised and reconstructed for at least some of them. Be that as it may, the Hurrians are the earliest definable group for whose presence in the region we currently have evidence; followed closely by the Sumerians.

Silesian
02-01-2014, 08:57 PM
The genetic data, up to this point, is what it is. I try and make sense of it the best I can, while attempting to minimize my own biases.

*

Note the possible correlation between hg1 and hg3.

hg1 (~R1b)

hg3, hg29 (~R1a)


hg1 hg3 hg29
42.8% 5.6% 0.0% Karabakh
40.0% 9.3% 0.0% Syunik
32.1% 1.8% 0.0% Iran
22.7% 0.0% 0.0% Ararat
22.2% 4.2% 0.5% North
22.2% 3.3% 1.1% West


These Scythians were mainly interested in settling in the kingdom of Urartu, which later became Armenia. The district of Shacusen, Uti Province, reflects their name

Syunik is interestingly south of Uti/Utik province if it is the same used in the wiki
Kurkjian, Vahan M. (1964). A History of Armenia. New York: Armenian General Benevolent Union of America. p. 23. R1b-40.0% R1a9.3% 0.0%-Syunik

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2d/Historical_regions_of_Greater_Armenia.png

Humanist
02-01-2014, 10:34 PM
These Scythians were mainly interested in settling in the kingdom of Urartu, which later became Armenia.

Livius.org


After a century of development, the fertile country had become a natural target for the nomads who lived north of the Caucasus (known to the Greeks as 'Scythians', Sakesinai, or Cimmerians). Archaeologists have discovered that many Urartian fortresses were destroyed before 600; arrowheads from a type known from the Ukraine indicate that the Scythians were responsible for the destruction.

....

Urartu lived on as a satrapy, and later as an independent kingdom called Armenia.

Humanist
02-03-2014, 01:46 AM
The Assyrian R2a line of Tomasso29 (Birko) is in green/red. From a previous 67 STR tree by Marko Heinila:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/R2_Birko.png

Humanist
02-11-2014, 09:47 PM
I personally agree. I think L23 in West Asia has more to do with the Caucasus and non IE speaking Kura-Araxes and Maykop populations than the Balkans. I was just pointing out some(most?) people do connect L23 to the spread of IE languages in one of the regions DMXX mentioned (Caucasus, Iran and South-Central Asia).

Do not get me wrong. I believe a Balkans origins is possible, however, your statement was unqualified (in part), so, that is why I responded. See my recent post, below:


I still believe it was most likely introduced into the region in the copper age and that this fits the multiple suspected bronze age waves from there - Hittites, Luwians, Phrygians, Armenians etc.

Please see my previous post, below. Linguists have identified possible (probable ?) Akkadian, and even Old Persian influences in our vernacular. Not Armenian. It is possible, at least some, or perhaps a significant part of our R-L23 frequency may have arrived on the heels of individuals speaking the NW Semitic language of Aramaic. It is possible, that at least some of the R-L23 lines now observed in Armenians and Assyrians were responsible for the " Indo-Europeanization" of the former, and the "Aramaization" of the latter some time during the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age.


Wikipedia


The states that are called Neo-Hittite, or more recently Syro-Hittite, or Aramean (after the Arameans and the Aramaic language), were Luwian, Aramaic and Phoenician-speaking political entities of the Iron Age in northern Syria and southern Anatolia that arose following the collapse of the Hittite Empire around 1180 BC and which lasted until roughly 700 BC. The term "Neo-Hittite" is sometimes reserved specifically for the Luwian-speaking principalities like Milid and Carchemish, although in a wider sense the broader cultural term "Syro-Hittite" is now applied to all the entities that arose in south-central Anatolia following the Hittite collapse — such as Tabal and Quwê — as well as those of northern and coastal Syria.[1]

The vast Hittite empire at its maximum expansion in the lands of central Anatolia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Map_Hittite_rule_en.svg/300px-Map_Hittite_rule_en.svg.png


Historical map of the Neo-Hittite ["Aramaean"] states, c. 800 BCE. Borders are approximate only.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/NeoHittiteStates.gif

Humanist
03-01-2014, 07:17 AM
European frequencies from Eupedia.

Neighbor-joining analysis:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/neighbor_joining_eupedia_freq1.jpg

Humanist
03-01-2014, 08:26 PM
The Maltese Y-DNA frequencies from Eupedia.

One may immediately assume that the above relationship is due to the fact that the Maltese speak a Semitic language. However, it is readily apparent by viewing their Y-DNA frequencies that this in fact is not the case. Unless the Arabs that introduced Semitic languages to Malta were unlike any Arab group that exists today (i.e. High R1b, J1 < 10%, E1b < 10%...).


Malta
32.5 -- R1b
21 -- J2
10 -- I2
9 -- E1b
8 -- J1
6.5 -- G2a
4.5 -- T
3.5 -- R1a
1 -- I1
1 -- I2b
1 -- Q
0 -- N1c1

Malta's location:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/malta.jpg

Wikipedia


Phoenicians
Phoenicians possibly from Tyre colonized the islands approximately in the 7th century BC as an outpost from which they expanded sea explorations and trade in the Mediterranean. They named the island Maleth/Malat meaning "safe haven" and lived in the area now occupied by the city of Mdina and its suburb Rabat.

Carthage and Rome
The islands later came under the control of Carthage (400 BC), who left numerous settlements, such as Ras ir-Raħeb and at Żejtun, and established Punic culture on the islands. Malta then fell to the Roman Republic in 218 BC. The islands prospered under Roman rule, and were eventually distinguished as a Municipium and a Foederata Civitas. Many Roman antiquities still exist, testifying to the close link between the Maltese inhabitants and the people of Rome.

Vandals and Byzantines
In 440 the island was captured by the Vandals, which had recently occupied the Roman province of Africa. It was recovered by the Byzantine general Belisarius in 533, along with the other Vandal possessions, and remained a part of the Byzantine province of Sicily for the next 340 years.

Arab period
Malta was occupied by the Fatimids, who exerted 220 years of influence (from 870 to 1090 CE/AD) on the existing civilization. In addition to their language, Siculo-Arabic, cotton, oranges and lemons and many new techniques in irrigation were introduced. Some of these, like the noria (waterwheel), are still used, unchanged, today. Many place names in Malta date to this period. The Phoenician city of Mdina was extensively modified in this period.

DMXX
03-01-2014, 09:16 PM
European frequencies from Eupedia.

Neighbor-joining analysis:


Couldn't help but notice the supercluster Assyrians belong to (Ireland<->Malta) house ethnic groups/nationalities that are predominantly Y-DNA R1b. The sister supercluster to that (Latvia<->Sweden) is clearly Scandinavian-Baltic and is still R1b dominant, albeit probably less so. The next large supercluster (Belarus<->Moldova) is East European, which we're all aware is a peak zone with respect to Y-DNA R1a.

Just thought I'd mention that. Seemed to coincidentally fit the Y-DNA distribution pattern of the Assyrian people.

Humanist
03-01-2014, 09:49 PM
Couldn't help but notice the supercluster Assyrians belong to (Ireland<->Malta) house ethnic groups/nationalities that are predominantly Y-DNA R1b.

....

Seemed to coincidentally fit the Y-DNA distribution pattern of the Assyrian people.

Thanks for the comment, DMXX. The R1b modals of the people from the northern Levantine coast bear the strongest resemblance to the Atlantic Modal Haplotype. I know that STR motifs are not that popular these days, in particular haplotypes of the shorter variety, however, one cannot simply dismiss the fact that these populations exist, and that they happen to live in a location that bridges the gap between "east" and "west." I am speaking about the Druze and the Alawites. Not the Armenians. Not the Iranians. And, save for some haplotypes, not the Assyrians. So, that is why I have maintained for going on a few years now that the Mediterranean may have played a significant part in the spread of at least some R1b lines.

Alanson
03-02-2014, 04:23 AM
What is the frequencies of the Y-DNA T in Assyrian population?

Humanist
03-02-2014, 04:39 AM
What is the frequencies of the Y-DNA T in Assyrian population?

In bold, below:


N=125__(2/1/04)
24.8% -- R1b
17.6% -- J1
14.4% -- T
13.6% -- J2
8.8% -- G
7.2% -- E1b1b1
4.0% -- R2a
4.0% -- Q1b
2.4% -- R1a
1.6% -- F
0.8% -- L
0.8% -- I2

Alanson
03-10-2014, 06:58 AM
In bold, below:

Wow that's significant, I do believe this lineage is of Mesopotamian origins rather than Indian or Caucasian, do you agree with this statement ?

Humanist
03-10-2014, 06:48 PM
Wow that's significant, I do believe this lineage is of Mesopotamian origins rather than Indian or Caucasian, do you agree with this statement ?

Based on modern frequencies, and varieties, Syro-Mesopotamia is as good a spot as any. However, if we have learned anything from aDNA, it is not to make too much of modern frequencies. So, who really knows until we have more data from the past.

Humanist
03-13-2014, 01:52 AM
Perhaps a bit tangential, but I think it is a reminder of how present demographics may be a very poor substitute for the past demographics of a region, country, etc.

Using religion.

Roughly 400 years before the rise of Christianity, 1000 years before the advent of Islam, in the central and southern parts of the country we today refer to as Iraq, in Babylonia, the following would have reigned supreme:

1. Sumero-Akkadian (Sumerian/East Semitic)
2. Judaism (West Semitic)
3. Zoroastrianism (Iranian)
4. Hellenism (Greek)

Between ritual and theatre: political performance in Seleucid Babylonia (https://www.academia.edu/6383776/Between_ritual_and_theatre_political_performance_i n_Seleucid_Babylonia)

by Lauren Ristvet

World Archaeology, 2014, Special Issue, Archaeology of Performance, Vol. 45: 4

Abstract


In Seleucid Babylonia, performance was politics. In this colonial state, the temple, theatre and ritual were established as a middle ground between the different populations. ‘Greek’ theatres were constructed to look like Babylonian temples, and both institutions served as loci of civil authority. Moreover, the staging of the Babylonian Akitu influenced the mise-en-scène of the Greek pompe at Daphne, and exposure to Greek drama shaped audience response to religious ceremonies. State rituals were more than occasions for kings to assert their legitimacy, they were also spaces in which the Babylonian priesthood, Greek politai and Babylonian citizens could debate Seleucid hegemony and imagine an alternative to the empire.

Humanist
03-13-2014, 06:40 PM
A comparison of Kurdish and Assyrian Y-DNA frequencies.

Kurdish DNA frequencies gathered from the Kurdish DNA Blogspot (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2013/10/kurdish-y-dna-part-x.html)*. Sources used: Gokcumen et al., 2011; Grugni et al., 2012; Cristofaro et al., 2013; 23andMe/FTDNA Kurdish results.


N=157 N=126
KRD ASY
7% 25% -- R1b
30% 13% -- J2
15% 2% -- R1a
5% 14% -- T
16% 8% -- E
11% 17% -- J1
0% 4% -- Q1b
3% 1% -- L
3% 1% -- I
7% 9% -- G
0% 2% -- F
3% 4% -- R2
1% 0% -- H
1% 0% -- R1

Assyrians have more than 3x R1b.
Assyrians have almost 3x more T.
Assyrians have about .5x more J1.
Assyrians have more Q1b, G, F, and R2.

Kurds have more than 7x R1a.
Kurds have more than 2x J2.
Kurds have 2x more E.
Kurds have more L, I, H, and R1.



* The Malyarchuk et al. 2013 frequencies for J1 and J2 were combined, therefore, the Malyarchuk frequencies were excluded.

Humanist
03-24-2014, 08:23 PM
Came across this study by Khurana et al., mentioned by soulblighter here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?709-New-DNA-Papers&p=34903&viewfull=1#post34903).

Added Assyrian Y-DNA frequencies to the dataset, and created the following neighbor-joining tree:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/NJ_tree_khurana_et_al.jpg


Asy -- Assyrian
Afg -- Afganistan
Pak -- Pakistan
Ira -- Iran
Irk -- Iraq
Jor -- Jordan
Tur -- Turkey
Leb -- Lebanon
Syr -- Syria
Kaz -- Kazakhstan
Alt -- Alltai
Uzb -- Uzbekistan
Kyr -- Kyrgyzthan
Uyg -- Uyghursta
Gre -- Greece
Fra -- France
Net -- Netherlands
Ger -- Germany
Cz and Slo -- Czech and Slovakia
Ala -- Alabina
Mac -- Macedonia
Pol -- Poland
Hun -- Hungary
Ukr -- Ukraine
Geo -- Georgia
Dh -- Dhodia
Du -- Dubla
Kon -- Konkana
Vas -- Vasava
Gam -- Gamit
VC -- Valvi Chaudhari
NC -- Nana Chaudhari
MC -- Mota Chaudhari
PC -- Pavagadhi Chaudhari


I also ran a cluster analysis, which showed Assyrians in a branch with Iranians, Turks, and Georgians.

ZephyrousMandaru
03-25-2014, 04:29 AM
Couldn't help but notice the supercluster Assyrians belong to (Ireland<->Malta) house ethnic groups/nationalities that are predominantly Y-DNA R1b. The sister supercluster to that (Latvia<->Sweden) is clearly Scandinavian-Baltic and is still R1b dominant, albeit probably less so. The next large supercluster (Belarus<->Moldova) is East European, which we're all aware is a peak zone with respect to Y-DNA R1a.

Just thought I'd mention that. Seemed to coincidentally fit the Y-DNA distribution pattern of the Assyrian people.

This is correct, but the Assyrians are also on their own branch, a branch which is longer than most of the other European branches. Which, if I'm interpreting this correctly, indicates long periods when they split off from their TMRCA.

Silesian
03-25-2014, 05:37 AM
A comparison of Kurdish and Assyrian Y-DNA frequencies.

Kurdish DNA frequencies gathered from the Kurdish DNA Blogspot (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2013/10/kurdish-y-dna-part-x.html)*. Sources used: Gokcumen et al., 2011; Grugni et al., 2012; Cristofaro et al., 2013; 23andMe/FTDNA Kurdish results.


Assyrians have more than 3x R1b.[most likely comprised L277+ and L584+]
Assyrians have 0 R1b* M343
Assyrians have almost 3x more T.
Assyrians have about .5x more J1.
Assyrians have more Q1b, G, F, and R2.

Kurds have more than 7x R1a.
Kurds have more than 2x J2.
Kurds have 2x more E.
Kurds have more L, I, H, and R1.
Kurds have X more R1b* 343



* The Malyarchuk et al. 2013 frequencies for J1 and J2 were combined, therefore, the Malyarchuk frequencies were excluded.

I have not taken anytime to examine the frequency of R1b* 343* in Assyrians going by Grugni however it is 0%
However your sources verify 7% R1b found in Kurds; partly comprised of R1b* 343, which evidently is not all that common.
Compare Wiki R1b references Meyers and Grugni with Kurdish web page, R1b* 343, with Assyrian ydna project.

R1b* (that is R1b with no subsequent distinguishing SNP mutations) is extremely rare. The only population yet recorded with a definite significant proportion of R1b* are the Kurds of southeastern Kazakhstan with 13%.[6] However, more recently, a large study of Y-chromosome variation in Iran, revealed R1b* as high as 4.3% among Persian sub-populations.[17]



Myres, Natalie; Rootsi, Siiri; Lin, Alice A; Järve, Mari; King, Roy J; Kutuev, Ildus; Cabrera, Vicente M; Khusnutdinova, Elza K et al. (2010)
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html


http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252


Kurdish Y-DNA Part X

Haplogroup R1b
2x R1b-M343 (Kurdish village Dogukoy*/Central Anatolia in Gokcumen et al., 2011)
1x R1b-M343 (Iranian Kurds in Grugni et al., 2012)
13x R1b-M343 (Iraqi Kurds in Stenersen et al., 2004; based on Athey's Haplogroup predictor)

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.ca/2013/10/kurdish-y-dna-part-x.html

Humanist
03-25-2014, 07:09 AM
[I]ndicates long periods when they split off from their TMRCA.

Hi, Zeph. The analysis was based on Y-DNA frequencies, not TMRCA data.

ZephyrousMandaru
03-25-2014, 04:29 PM
Hi, Zeph. The analysis was based on Y-DNA frequencies, not TMRCA data.

Yeah I know, but in neighbor-joining trees, don't long branches signify the amount of time that has gone by of when any two populations shared a common ancestor?

Humanist
03-28-2014, 09:40 PM
For example it is possible that R1b members from Nestorian Church might be related to R1b in Kurds.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/kurds/default.aspx?section=yresults

Your link provides the following haplotypes as the basis for such speculation?

12 24 14 11 11-14 12 11 12 13 13 29 258253 Azerbaijan R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 12-16 12 12 13 13 13 29 N102077 Turkey R1b1a2
13 22 14 11 11-14 12 13 12 13 13 28 16473 Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b4i
13 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 290905 England R1b1a2

Agamemnon
04-05-2014, 02:06 AM
That is a good bet. But, I should add that our info on Alawites is unfortunately limited to STR data. The Assyrian modal haplotype is most similar to the Alawite modal haplotype. And yes, the Assyrian haplotypes are also similar to the Cohanim haplotypes, and at least one Assyrian and Cohanim man are derived for L-943. Our knowledge of the varieties of R1b in non-Nestorian Assyrians is very limited.

This is fascinating and could prove to be a very interesting game changer for R1b's history.
We crucially need studies on minority groups in SW Asia, definitely the best thing we can hope to get our hands on after genome-wide studies of aDNA samples.

Interestingly, L943 happens to be a subclade of R1b-L584, I'm really starting to wonder about R1b-Z2103 and its spread now...

Also, sorry for diverging, but I've heard Syriac Orthodox have high frequencies of J1-P58 (which happens to be my haplogroup as well), why so? Also, do you know which subclade they belong to? I suspect they'll turn out to be mostly J1-Z640, but I could be wrong.

Humanist
04-07-2014, 03:38 AM
Also, sorry for diverging, but I've heard Syriac Orthodox have high frequencies of J1-P58 (which happens to be my haplogroup as well), why so? Also, do you know which subclade they belong to? I suspect they'll turn out to be mostly J1-Z640, but I could be wrong.

Yes. They do have higher frequencies of J1-P58. However, again, unfortunately, there has been very little, in terms of SNP testing, extended STR testing, etc., so, it is difficult to say much about them. Here are some posts from another forum, regarding the results of two Syriac Orthodox men that I sponsored the testing for at FTDNA:

#1


Searching YHRD for 9 out of 12 markers (not necessarily J1-P58)

DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393 and DYS385a/b:

10 of 238 Tripoli, Libya [Libyan] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Africa
5 of 82 Tripoli, Libya [Arab] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Africa
2 of 54 Tunis, Tunisia [Tunisian] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Africa
1 of 218 Sousse, Tunisia [Tunisian] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Africa
1 of 47 Tripoli, Libya Afro-Asiatic - Berber Africa
1 of 125 Brussels, Belgium [Belgian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 155 Sfax, Tunisia [Tunisian] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Africa
1 of 52 Qena, Egypt [Egyptian] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Africa
1 of 285 Kuweit City, Kuweit [Arab] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Asia

According to Vadim Urasin's predictor, the probability that the 9 out of 12 markers used are J1-P58 is 56%. However, extending the available markers to 16, based on the most frequently reported haplotypes for the Libyan sample at top, using the Athey predictor, gives a probability of 99.9% / fitness score of 55 for J1.

Note that this is only a YHRD map containing the North African and ME "matches." There was also a Belgian hit. Assyrian sample noted, and relevant spots outlined in purple.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/orthodox_j1p58.jpg


#2


Y-Search returns no results within a GD of 6 at 37 markers. FTDNA returns two matches (GD=2). The first man lists [B]Lithuania as country of maternal origin, but does not list a country of paternal origin. The second man lists Ukraine as country of both maternal and paternal origin.



YHRD search of the above J-P58 Assyrian haplotype (10 markers):

Top 10 in descending order by frequency:

1. 3 114 2.63% Jordan [Arab-Qahtanit] Afro-Asiatic Semitic Asia
2. 4 191 2.09% Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates [Arab] Eurasian Asia
3. 1 52 1.92% Qena, Egypt [Egyptian] Afro-Asiatic Semitic Africa
4. 1 52 1.92% Sohag, Egypt [Egyptian] Afro-Asiatic Semitic Africa
5. 1 54 1.85% Tunis, Tunisia [Tunisian] Afro-Asiatic Semitic Africa
6. 1 64 1.56% Stawropol, Russian Federation [Russian] Eurasian European Eastern European Europe
7. 1 65 1.54% Sao Paulo State, Brazil [European] Eurasian European Latin America
8. 4 263 1.52% Oman [Omani] Afro-Asiatic Semitic Asia
9. 2 155 1.29% Sfax, Tunisia [Tunisian] Afro-Asiatic Semitic Africa
10. 2 163 1.23% Israel & Palestinian Authority Area [Arab] Afro-Asiatic Semitic Asia

ZephyrousMandaru
04-25-2014, 11:38 PM
Humanist, what do you know about J1-CTS1460? FTDNA's Haplotree classified that as my paternal sublineage.

Humanist
05-18-2014, 10:34 PM
There is a fella on 23andMe who shares a good chunk of DNA with both sides of my family (e.g. nearly 1% with my grandmother). The interesting thing about him is that he is Q1a3. Thus far, Assyrians have been exclusively Q1b. And, with a non-negligible frequency of ~4%. Now, if this individual is also Assyrian, then we will have members of both Q1a and Q1b.

Humanist
05-18-2014, 10:50 PM
Humanist, what do you know about J1-CTS1460?

Not much. Last I checked its age was estimated at > 4000 years. Check out the Facebook J1 page. There may be an updated tree there (and/or Marko's analyses), based on full genome and other data.