PDA

View Full Version : Dog Wars - Origins of domesticated dogs.



JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-12-2016, 08:11 AM
This is an interesting article. Hopefully closer collaboration between researchers may bring us closer to an answer. My gut feeling is the estimated date of domestication will be earlier, rather than later, if we ever get to a conclusion.

http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2015/12/feature-solving-mystery-dog-domestication

Kristiina
01-12-2016, 10:17 AM
I read the article but I did not notice if they commented on this Altaian finding:
Ancient DNA Analysis Affirms the Canid from Altai as a Primitive Dog (2013)
The origin of domestic dogs remains controversial, with genetic data indicating a separation between modern dogs and wolves in the Late Pleistocene. However, only a few dog-like fossils are found prior to the Last Glacial Maximum, and it is widely accepted that the dog domestication predates the beginning of agriculture about 10,000 years ago. In order to evaluate the genetic relationship of one of the oldest dogs, we have isolated ancient DNA from the recently described putative 33,000-year old Pleistocene dog from Altai and analysed 413 nucleotides of the mitochondrial control region. Our analyses reveal that the unique haplotype of the Altai dog is more closely related to modern dogs and prehistoric New World canids than it is to contemporary wolves. Further genetic analyses of ancient canids may reveal a more exact date and centre of domestication.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0057754

According to the paper above, the remains of a primitive dog dated from 31,000 to 36,000 cy in Altai were close to Beringian wolves. I do not know if dogs were really domesticated at that time, but maybe the cooperation process had already begun.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-12-2016, 05:51 PM
I suppose it depends on how you define "a dog" ? :) A lot may depend on the context in which any fossils are found, do they demonstrate some sort of collaborative relationship and habitation with humans which indicates "domestication". I'm quite curious about why domestication happened, because modern wolves are still virtually impossible to domesticate as I understand it, at least not to the point where they can live with you in your home. On the other hand, it is quite possible to domesticate young foxes. I think there is one theory that domestication may be down to some genetic variation. There is reference to some genetic evidence of divergence going back 100,000 years. Maybe it's basic evolution and self-selection. Would be good if they find an answer.

Kristiina
01-12-2016, 07:28 PM
Yes, maybe there was self-selection. Today, it is easy to see the advantages that the cooperation with dogs brought to Paleolithic humans. Dogs have an incredible sense of smell and they warn you if there is a danger. But how it all started is a mystery. However, it is interesting that in Siberia, there are many myths of humans having a male dog as their ancestor. I am not so well acquainted with this matter, but I presume that many tribes thought that they had an animal as their ancestor, and not all of them were descendants of a dog. There is an interesting book about the history of dogs from dogs’ perspective, but the book is only in Finnish. The book is full of ancient stories about dogs from everywhere in the world, but in particular from pre-Columbian America.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-17-2016, 07:19 PM
Yes, maybe there was self-selection. Today, it is easy to see the advantages that the cooperation with dogs brought to Paleolithic humans. Dogs have an incredible sense of smell and they warn you if there is a danger. But how it all started is a mystery. However, it is interesting that in Siberia, there are many myths of humans having a male dog as their ancestor. I am not so well acquainted with this matter, but I presume that many tribes thought that they had an animal as their ancestor, and not all of them were descendants of a dog. There is an interesting book about the history of dogs from dogs’ perspective, but the book is only in Finnish. The book is full of ancient stories about dogs from everywhere in the world, but in particular from pre-Columbian America.

Finnish Game Research did a study on the effectiveness of hunting with dogs compared to hunting without. I can't find the document now, but I think the conclusions were something like 50%+ more effective with big game and 9 x more effective with small game, which could be a very significant factor in terms of survival. I think myself people owe a lot to the dog and the horse. :)

parasar
06-02-2016, 08:55 PM
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/352/6290/1228.full

"A dogged investigation of domestication

The history of how wolves became our pampered pooches of today has remained controversial. Frantz et al. describe high-coverage sequencing of the genome of an Irish dog from the Bronze Age as well as ancient dog mitochondrial DNA sequences. Comparing ancient dogs to a modern worldwide panel of dogs shows an old, deep split between East Asian and Western Eurasian dogs. Thus, dogs were domesticated from two separate wolf populations on either side of the Old World."

https://d2ufo47lrtsv5s.cloudfront.net/content/sci/352/6290/1228/F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

MikeWhalen
06-03-2016, 12:11 AM
I found this today, a variation on the OP?

http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/the-origin-of-dogs/484976/

Mike

Jean M
06-03-2016, 04:10 AM
The interesting part for me was this:


The geographic and temporal origins of dogs remain controversial. We generated genetic sequences from 59 ancient dogs and a complete (28x) genome of a late Neolithic dog (dated to ~4800 calendar years before the present) from Ireland. Our analyses revealed a deep split separating modern East Asian and Western Eurasian dogs. Surprisingly, the date of this divergence (~14,000 to 6400 years ago) occurs commensurate with, or several millennia after, the first appearance of dogs in Europe and East Asia. Additional analyses of ancient and modern mitochondrial DNA revealed a sharp discontinuity in haplotype frequencies in Europe. Combined, these results suggest that dogs may have been domesticated independently in Eastern and Western Eurasia from distinct wolf populations. East Eurasian dogs were then possibly transported to Europe with people, where they partially replaced European Paleolithic dogs.

It proves yet again that just analysing modern DNA can be deceptive. We need ancient DNA.

Heber
06-03-2016, 08:13 AM
THe Newgrange dog from Ireland clusters with the Western group which is to be expected.

Moreover, the Newgrange dog clusters tightly with Western Eurasian dogs. We used principal components analysis (PCA), D statistics, and the program TreeMix (12) to further test this pattern. Each of these analyses unequivocally placed the Newgrange dog with modern European dogs (figs. S5 to S7). These findings demonstrate that the node separating the East Asian and Western Eurasian clades is older than the Newgrange individual, which was directly radiocarbon dated to ~4800 years ago.

9597

Dubhthach
06-03-2016, 11:00 AM
Petrous bone technique again, given that things such as Dogs and other domesticated animals are quite common finds at archaeological sites it's gonna provide an interesting framework for future research.

I'd think horse remains would be particularly interesting in light of Yamnaya etc.

Shaikorth
06-03-2016, 12:44 PM
The interesting part for me was this:



It proves yet again that just analysing modern DNA can be deceptive. We need ancient DNA.

Yup. This paper implies a much more massive replacement for dogs than humans in Europe experienced after the Neolithic, even if only partial we are talking >90%.

Heber
06-03-2016, 02:18 PM
Petrous bone technique again, given that things such as Dogs and other domesticated animals are quite common finds at archaeological sites it's gonna provide an interesting framework for future research.

I'd think horse remains would be particularly interesting in light of Yamnaya etc.

This is a nice article on the paper:

Newgrange, a 4,800-year-old monument that predates Stonehenge and the pyramids of Giza. Beneath its large circular mound and within its underground chambers lie many fragments of animal bones. And among those fragments, Dan Bradley from Trinity College Dublin found the petrous bone of a dog.

Press your finger behind your ear. Thatís the petrous. Itís a bulbous knob of very dense bone thatís exceptionally good at preserving DNA. If you try to pull DNA out of a fossil, most of it will come from contaminating microbes and just a few percent will come from the boneís actual owner. But if youíve got a petrous bone, that proportion can be as high as 80 percent. And indeed, Bradley found DNA galore within the bone, enough to sequence the full genome of the long-dead dog...

The team calculated that the two dog dynasties split from each other between 6,400 and 14,000 years ago. But the oldest dog fossils in both western and eastern Eurasia are older than that. Which means that when those eastern dogs migrated west into Europe, there were already dogs there.

http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/the-origin-of-dogs/484976/

Volat
06-03-2016, 10:11 PM
Yes, maybe there was self-selection. Today, it is easy to see the advantages that the cooperation with dogs brought to Paleolithic humans. Dogs have an incredible sense of smell and they warn you if there is a danger. But how it all started is a mystery. However, it is interesting that in Siberia, there are many myths of humans having a male dog as their ancestor. I am not so well acquainted with this matter, but I presume that many tribes thought that they had an animal as their ancestor, and not all of them were descendants of a dog. There is an interesting book about the history of dogs from dogs’ perspective, but the book is only in Finnish. The book is full of ancient stories about dogs from everywhere in the world, but in particular from pre-Columbian America.

I read about similar myth of Siberian people. Female wolf was featured who fed surviving human children and cubs with her milk.

Shaikorth
06-03-2016, 10:46 PM
Romans also had this quite famous story about a wolf feeding human infants. An interesting question is if such myths appear wherever wolves do.

Volat
06-04-2016, 12:47 AM
Chechens have a legend about them originating from wolf mother . Wolf is their national symbol : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_wolf

Wolf was one of the most important animal in mythologies of people of Eurasia. The second animal, particularly in eastern Europe can be bear. Proto-Slavs even tabooed the original IE name of bear (*ber) calling the animal as 'honey eater” (medved', miadzviedź etc). The original IE name of the animal survived in bear's lair (ber-loga ) in Slavic languages.

Volat
06-04-2016, 01:33 AM
According to this article Indo-Europeans and people of Eurasia revered the animal. But not Finnic people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_in_folklore,_religion_and_mythology


Unlike fox and bear, the wolf has always been feared and hated in Finland, and wolf has been the symbol of destruction and desolation, to the extent that the very name of wolf in Finnish language, susi, means also "a useless thing" and the by-name hukka means perdition and annihilation. While bear has been the sacred animal of Finns, wolves have always been hunted and killed mercilessly. The wolf has been represented as implacable and malicious predator, killing more than it manages to eat.

Saetro
06-04-2016, 03:22 AM
Other work on New Guinea singing dogs such as Oskarsson et al 2011 (doi:10.1098/rspb.2011.1395) and related work by these authors, certainly shows a link to the Asian mainland, but in the tree above, the placement of New Guinea village dogs next to Samoyed and with Western breeds is a surprise.
The nearby presence of Namibian village dogs (also in the tree above) might suggest that dogs were yet another technology brought into Africa.
If so, it would be interesting to link the chronology with back-migration of humans into Africa, for example YDNA Haplogroup T.

The other paper that needs to be considered is Skoglund et al 2015 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(15)00432-7 which suggested much earlier domestication of dogs. (News article based on this http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-32691843)

All up, I can form a rationale for these results, but I would far rather take the attitude expressed by others, that more ancient dog DNA results would be valuable.

Saetro
06-04-2016, 03:34 AM
Chechens have a legend about them originating from wolf mother .
Romans too, as wet nurse for the founders.

Some people used it as a surname.
I have ancestors from Germany who married people with the names Wolf, Wolfe, Wolff.
And some from another line with a surname supposed to be from a Polish dialect for "wolf".
I take it as a nickname, and would be interested to hear if when used as such what it might relate to:
strength? cleverness? solitary hunter? facial similarity?
Any family lore on this?

Volat
06-04-2016, 06:27 AM
Romans too, as wet nurse for the founders.

Some people used it as a surname.
I have ancestors from Germany who married people with the names Wolf, Wolfe, Wolff.
And some from another line with a surname supposed to be from a Polish dialect for "wolf".
I take it as a nickname, and would be interested to hear if when used as such what it might relate to:
strength? cleverness? solitary hunter? facial similarity?
Any family lore on this?


Surname wolf is used several European cultures. Most people received surnames relatively recently. I'd say wolf surname was given to people for personal qualities such as ardent or non-sociable.

aarnisotka
06-04-2016, 08:32 AM
According to this article Indo-Europeans and people of Eurasia revered the animal. But not Finnic people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_in_folklore,_religion_and_mythology


Unlike fox and bear, the wolf has always been feared and hated in Finland, and wolf has been the symbol of destruction and desolation, to the extent that the very name of wolf in Finnish language, susi, means also "a useless thing" and the by-name hukka means perdition and annihilation. While bear has been the sacred animal of Finns, wolves have always been hunted and killed mercilessly. The wolf has been represented as implacable and malicious predator, killing more than it manages to eat.

It is quite easy to romantisize when our dear neighbours have already killed these animals into extinction. Similarily Native Americans only came stuff of romantic fables when the slaughter was all but over. Wolves killing family dogs is still quite common occurance in East and North Finland. Bears and wolves have a very positive image in West Finland, where ironically there is very little Wild Things. Then they marvel at the evulness of these Backwoodsmen: their open hostility to these marvelous critters.

Volat
06-04-2016, 08:47 AM
It is quite easy to romantisize when our dear neighbours have already killed these animals into extinction. Similarily Native Americans only came stuff of romantic fables when the slaughter was all but over. Wolves killing family dogs is still quite common occurance in East and North Finland. Bears and wolves have a very positive image in West Finland, where ironically there is very little Wild Things. Then they marvel at the evulness of these Backwoodsmen: their open hostility to these marvelous critters.

Eastern Europe still has decent wolf and bear populations in their forests unlike western Europe. Adoration of wolves in Indo-European cultures pre-dates their massive killing. It's ironic that people admired the animal and killed the animal to extinction because wolves were taking their livestock. People changed the environment around them reducing the number of wild animals which wolves hunted. So wolves turned onto livestock of people. Something similar is happening with Siberian tigers, which are happy to take cows and domestic dogs of villagers in the far east of Russia.

Belarusian national animal is white stork. In the past people believed that hurting a white stork will bring misfortune to a community. If a person killed a white stork, then other people could punish that person. Wolve's destiny was decided because of the problems they were causing to people.

Shaikorth
06-04-2016, 11:32 AM
Iranic folklore is listed among those not fond of wolves in the wiki, let's see what the old texts say:

AVESTA: YASNA:

18. Yea, I make my claim on thee that I may overwhelm the angry hate of haters, of the Daevas and of mortals, of the sorcerers and sirens, of the tyrants, and the Kavis, of the Karpans, murderous bipeds, of the sanctity-destroyers, the profane apostate bipeds, of the wolves four-footed monsters, of the invading host, wide-fronted, which with stratagems advance.
...
21. This sixth blessing I ask of thee, O Haoma, thou that drivest death afar! that we may get good warning of the thief, good warning of the murderer, see first the bludgeon-bearer, get first sight of the wolf. May no one whichsoever get first the sight of us. In the strife with each may we be they who get the first alarm!

Jean M
06-04-2016, 09:46 PM
There is a video from the University of Oxford on the recent research.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16SySpAWDpQ

Saetro
06-05-2016, 12:27 AM
It is quite easy to romantisize when our dear neighbours have already killed these animals into extinction. Similarily Native Americans only came stuff of romantic fables when the slaughter was all but over.

This tends to be a universal.
Cowboys were only celebrated when they had moved on. Ditto (with a few exceptions) traditional Native Americans.
In the late 1600s there were public campaigns to raise money for shelters along roads in Scotland in areas where wolves persisted.
Eventually they worked out that wolves flourished in woods and where they could not eliminate wolves otherwise, they limited wooded areas near frequent human use.
After Culloden in 1745, the English began to romanticize Highland Scots and began tourism to the area, and in C19 lapped up Sir Walter Scott's novels and Mendelssohn's Fingal's Cave music and tourism really took off after the Royal Family showed the way.

One modern equivalent is the decline in traditional manufacturing in western nations.
It was paralleled by the rise of checkerplate panels used decoratively in inner city restaurants and clubs, clothing brands such as "Industrie", and the re-purposing of former factories for residential accommodation and arts studios.

If you come across something you value being romanticized, it is in danger of dying out.

Saetro
06-05-2016, 12:56 AM
There is a previous paper on dogs of the Americas by von Asch et al 2013 - http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1766/20131142.short
Basically all pre-Columbian American dogs are from the Eastern domestication, which makes sense.

I was wondering why these papers all seem to mention mtDNA only, and then found this paper from Ding et al 2011 http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v108/n5/abs/hdy2011114a.html which
1) tested yDNA
2) located the site of Eastern domestication as south of the Yangtze
3) found no traces of subsequent hybridization with wolves

Volat
06-05-2016, 06:25 AM
There was a group of people known as Neuri living in southern Belarus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuri Balts and Slavs are still argueing if those were Balts or Slavs. Belarusians believe those were Slavs, Lithuanian Maria Gimbutas stated they were Balts. According to historic chronicles Neuri were able to turn into wolves.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-08-2016, 04:17 PM
Although not new research, this Russian study on foxes is interesting because it demonstrated that selecting for tameness also seems to result in physiological changes, which of course has happened to a considerable extent with dogs.
For what it's worth, my own feeling is that the first "dogs" self-selected for tameness, those most able to tolerate humans did better in terms of scrounging the scraps and surviving. I also have a feeling that the first wolf-dogs ( possibly an extinct sub-species) may have been closer behaviourally to foxes. Wolves aren't easily domesticated even today, whereas it is fairly easy to domesticate young foxes.
Just on a side-note, I have an amateur interest in the history of terriers. It is documented that there were terriers or earth-dogs in Britain and Ireland in Roman times and possibly much earlier and I understand the Romans exported hunting dogs from these parts. :)
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjLyPz85JjNAhVrJcAKHW6MD9UQFggvMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.scientificamerican.com%2Fth oughtful-animal%2Fmonday-pets-the-russian-fox-study%2F&usg=AFQjCNF2tvSqLGgP4gjt9JmORqMr6UDeXw

9693

Jean M
08-07-2016, 06:55 PM
Another new paper is available: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/08/05/068189

It's not quite the smoking gun, but getting closer. Hat-tip to David for picking it up http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/yamnaya-dogs.html

Laura Botiguť et al., Ancient European dog genomes reveal continuity since the early Neolithic, bioRxiv preprint first posted online 5 August 2016.


Abstract
Europe has played a major role in dog evolution, harbouring the oldest uncontested Palaeolithic remains and having been the centre of modern dog breed creation. We sequenced the whole genomes of an Early and End Neolithic dog from Germany, including a sample associated with one of Europe’s earliest farming communities. Both dogs demonstrate continuity with each other and predominantly share ancestry with modern European dogs, contradicting a Late Neolithic population replacement previously suggested by analysis of mitochondrial DNA and a Late Neolithic Irish genome. However, our End Neolithic sample possesses additional ancestry found in modern Indian dogs, which we speculate may be derived from dogs that accompanied humans from the Eastern European steppe migrating into Central Europe. By calibrating the mutation rate using our oldest dog, we narrow the timing of dog domestication to 20,000-40,000 years ago. Interestingly, the extreme copy number expansion of the AMY2B gene found in modern dogs was not observed in the ancient samples, indicating that the AMY2B copy number increase arose as an adaptation to starchrich diets after the advent of agriculture in the Neolithic period.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-07-2016, 08:37 PM
Another new paper is available: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/08/05/068189

It's not quite the smoking gun, but getting closer. Hat-tip to David for picking it up http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/yamnaya-dogs.html

Laura Botiguť et al., Ancient European dog genomes reveal continuity since the early Neolithic, bioRxiv preprint first posted online 5 August 2016.

The date is going further back all the time, which doesn't surprise me. :) I think we owe an awful lot of our success as a species to the dog and the horse.