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alan
01-14-2016, 12:00 AM
Danish bell beaker is interesting. Its nearly all concentrated in Northern Jutland at the top end of Denmark and is closest connected with the Rhine group culturally. So it clearly by sea. If we are tracing L21 to the Lower Rhine it is hard not to speculate that this Jutland group could also have included L21. L21 were clearly controlling the northern seas to the west. I also recall L21 was found to still mainly be in Jutland today.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IZ_KBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA176&lpg=PA176&dq=bell+beaker+denmark&source=bl&ots=di1lye5lVE&sig=bs9eEyWVPOtwAiZf2ie8ROav7JY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-1c3C-6fKAhVFtBQKHcZaB144ChDoAQgwMAQ#v=onepage&q=bell%20beaker%20denmark&f=false

Gravetto-Danubian
01-14-2016, 12:28 AM
Interesting.
Jutland, along with SW Norway, was part of a BB network comprising of the lower Rhine region and Britain. The coastal location of BB finds obviously speaks of the prodigious sea-faring of BB/ L21 folk
On the other hand, southern Sweden and some parts of eastern Denmark had networks linked to the Oder, Vistula, etc region which must be linked to the M417 groups.

GoldenHind
01-14-2016, 12:31 AM
I believe the Myres' data showed both P312 and U106 in Denmark are most common in northern Jutland, the area of the Beaker settlement. It wouldn't surprise me if Beakers in Denmark included L21 as well as various other P312 subclades. I think how U106 got to Denmark is still an open question.

David Mc
01-14-2016, 12:45 AM
Hi Alan. I've speculated along the same lines. If you look at Jean Manco's maps, you will see a scattering of BB across the water in the south coast of Norway, as well.

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GoldenHind
01-14-2016, 12:50 AM
Interesting.
Jutland, along with SW Norway, was part of a BB network comprising of the lower Rhine region and Britain. The coastal location of BB finds obviously speaks of the prodigious sea-faring of BB/ L21 folk
On the other hand, southern Sweden and some parts of eastern Denmark had networks linked to the Oder, Vistula, etc region which must be linked to the M417 groups.

There were eastern Beaker settlements on the Vistula and Oder rivers which reached the southern Baltic shore. I can see no reason to think these Beakers were R1a, though R1a may well have been in the area as well. My suspicion is these eastern Baekers may have included, at least in part, the three P312 subclades (L238, DF19 and DF99) that appear to have no presence along the Atlantic coast. Eastern Beakers seem to have had little contact with the more westerly Beaker groups.

GoldenHind
01-14-2016, 12:52 AM
Interesting.
Jutland, along with SW Norway, was part of a BB network comprising of the lower Rhine region and Britain. The coastal location of BB finds obviously speaks of the prodigious sea-faring of BB/ L21 folk
On the other hand, southern Sweden and some parts of eastern Denmark had networks linked to the Oder, Vistula, etc region which must be linked to the M417 groups.

There were eastern Beaker settlements on the Vistula and Oder rivers which reached the southern Baltic shore. I can see no reason to think these Beakers were R1a, though R1a may well have been in the area as well. My suspicion is these eastern Baekers may have included, at least in part, the three P312 subclades (L238, DF19 and DF99) that appear to have no presence along the Atlantic coast. Eastern Beakers seem to have had little contact with the more westerly Beaker groups. This might explain the absence of these P312 subclades from the Atlantic coast.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-14-2016, 12:57 AM
There were eastern Beaker settlements on the Vistula and Oder rivers which reached the southern Baltic shore. I can see no reason to think these Beakers were R1a, though R1a may well have been in the area as well. My suspicion is these eastern Baekers may have included, at least in part, the three P312 subclades (L238, DF19 and DF99) that appear to have no presence along the Atlantic coast. Eastern Beakers seem to have had little contact with the more westerly Beaker groups. This might explain the absence of these P312 subclades from the Atlantic coast.

I meant the Vistula-Oder networks were a wholly different 'kind' - non -BB, but single Grave/ CWC.
BB certainly appeared, but it was late in the east - after 2200 BC.

rms2
01-14-2016, 01:14 AM
Here are the Myres stats for their "Denmark North" sample location (as cited in the spreadsheet in Busby et al):

Denmark North (Myres) 57.433 10.183

N = 42

U106 = 23.8%

P312xL21,U152 = 7.1%

L21 = 9.5%

U152 = 4.8%

Of course, those are modern frequencies.

Webb
01-14-2016, 02:24 PM
My personal opinion is that the Rhine Delta is significant to the spread of P312. The whole area seems to have the largest variation of P312 clades. It also has a concentrated amount if U106. I doubt is just coincidence that we have U106, and just about every P312 clade found in that area at a pretty even rate amongst the P312 clades. We know it is an area that has been settled and cleared numerous times during written history, so you would have to assume it has been this way since pre-history. From the Delta you have easy access to open water.

evon
01-14-2016, 03:20 PM
I trace my L21+ linage back to the 1500's not far north from the Norwegian Bell beaker locations (my guess is they came for the copper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visnes,_Rogaland ), so I think it is a good possibility that it might be from such a migration, although it is only speculation at this point in time..My maternal line is also R1b-U152, which could be from similar origins..

alan
01-14-2016, 03:30 PM
Certainly archaeologists say that the main influence on these north Danish beakers came from the Rhine area. So whatever was in the Rhine should have ended up there assuming (and I think its a safe assumption) that the beaker phenomenon in north Denmark did involve significant human movement. So as most of us are thinking L21 came from the Rhenish beakers then it seems likely that there was at least some L21 in north Danish beakers. Further east this make not have been the case.

its still an open question as to whether U106 was in Corded Ware or was part of an obscure eastern bell beaker group. All we know is there is a case for it being absent/very rare in the CW era but present in the late/post-beaker era. Its not clear what happened in between.

alan
01-14-2016, 03:32 PM
Here are the Myres stats for their "Denmark North" sample location (as cited in the spreadsheet in Busby et al):

Denmark North (Myres) 57.433 10.183

N = 42

U106 = 23.8%

P312xL21,U152 = 7.1%

L21 = 9.5%

U152 = 4.8%

Of course, those are modern frequencies.

Even if the date of arrival is an open question, I would bet that the U152 came in by land from central Europe and the L21 came by sea/coastal route.

razyn
01-14-2016, 07:54 PM
L21 were clearly controlling the northern seas to the west.
I don't think that is evident from Bronze Age or earlier sampling. Maybe, from 21st century low resolution sampling. By 2000 BC, they do appear likely to have been the majority haplogroup among the people controlling the north end of the Irish Sea; do we really know much more, from aDNA results in hand?

Be that as it may, Jutland interests me as a logical way-station or shortcut for Beaker mariners, L21 or otherwise, needing to transit between the Baltic and the North Sea in fairly small boats (to which the Kattegat was not friendly). This use was made of small rivers and lake chains in historical times in Sweden and Finland. It was more prevalent in winter than the rest of the year; it is easier and safer to skid a heavy boat on ice than to drag it up (or ride it down) rapids during a spring flood. The boats were also hauled overland on sledges, as in this 1924 sketch of the winter delivery of a new churchboat from Sollerön (where it was built) to Västerås. This was well over 200 kilometers, about a third of it overland. The illustration is from Albert Eskeröd, Kyrkbåtar och kyrkbåtsfärder (Stockholm, 1973), p.78.

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A hypothetical Beaker water/ice route across Jutland (a few thousand years before the Eider or Kiel canals were built) might, for example, have passed north or south of Svansø, portaging with suitable sledges from the westernmost navigable salt water to one of the tributaries of the Eider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eider_%28river%29#/media/File:Nordens_Historie_-_S%C3%B8nderjylland.gif

Whether this or any similar shortcut was really used in the Beaker era, I have no idea. I don’t think it would leave much of an archaeological footprint, if it didn’t involve much landscape modification. It would have required specialists; one might speculate that these would have been families and clans, with the tools and knowledge preserved through father-son relationships and clan-based apprenticeships. And those in turn could tend to preserve (in Jutland) some evidence of yDNA haplogroups, including (but not limited to) L21.

GoldenHind
01-14-2016, 09:35 PM
My personal opinion is that the Rhine Delta is significant to the spread of P312. The whole area seems to have the largest variation of P312 clades. It also has a concentrated amount if U106. I doubt is just coincidence that we have U106, and just about every P312 clade found in that area at a pretty even rate amongst the P312 clades. We know it is an area that has been settled and cleared numerous times during written history, so you would have to assume it has been this way since pre-history. From the Delta you have easy access to open water.

There is one P312 subclade that doesn't appear to have a connection to to the Rhine delta- namely L238. This is concentrated in Scandinavia, primarily in Norway and Sweden. To date there has only been one L238 individual found with German ancestry (on the North Sea coast) and one from Austria. The Genomes of the Netherlands study of 500 males found no L238, although all other P312 subclades were represented to at least some degree. However if there is a connection between the Rhenish Beakers and Ireland, an explanation is needed for the apparent absence among the Gaelic Irish of P312 subclades L238, DF19 and DF99.

GoldenHind
01-14-2016, 09:37 PM
I don't think that is evident from Bronze Age or earlier sampling. Maybe, from 21st century low resolution sampling. By 2000 BC, they do appear likely to have been the majority haplogroup among the people controlling the north end of the Irish Sea; do we really know much more, from aDNA results in hand?

Be that as it may, Jutland interests me as a logical way-station or shortcut for Beaker mariners, L21 or otherwise, needing to transit between the Baltic and the North Sea in fairly small boats (to which the Kattegat was not friendly). This use was made of small rivers and lake chains in historical times in Sweden and Finland. It was more prevalent in winter than the rest of the year; it is easier and safer to skid a heavy boat on ice than to drag it up (or ride it down) rapids during a spring flood. The boats were also hauled overland on sledges, as in this 1924 sketch of the winter delivery of a new churchboat from Sollerön (where it was built) to Västerås. This was well over 200 kilometers, about a third of it overland. The illustration is from Albert Eskeröd, Kyrkbåtar och kyrkbåtsfärder (Stockholm, 1973), p.78.

7279

A hypothetical Beaker water/ice route across Jutland (a few thousand years before the Eider or Kiel canals were built) might, for example, have passed north or south of Svansø, portaging with suitable sledges from the westernmost navigable salt water to one of the tributaries of the Eider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eider_%28river%29#/media/File:Nordens_Historie_-_S%C3%B8nderjylland.gif

Whether this or any similar shortcut was really used in the Beaker era, I have no idea. I don’t think it would leave much of an archaeological footprint, if it didn’t involve much landscape modification. It would have required specialists; one might speculate that these would have been families and clans, with the tools and knowledge preserved through father-son relationships and clan-based apprenticeships. And those in turn could tend to preserve (in Jutland) some evidence of yDNA haplogroups, including (but not limited to) L21.

I believe the Limfjord, which separates Vendsyssel from the rest of Jutland, was navigable almost all the way from the North Sea to the Baltic.

R.Rocca
01-14-2016, 09:37 PM
There is caution from the Belgium study of a few years back that showed that the amount of L21 there doubled in the past 200-300 years or so... if I recall correctly, it went from about 5% to 10%. Further back, the numbers may have been even lower. The caveat of course is that modern day frequency is no guarantee of anything one way or another...heck, it could have been higher before going lower an then higher again. All of this could have been the case in Jutland.

razyn
01-14-2016, 10:31 PM
I believe the Limfjord, which separates Vendsyssel from the rest of Jutland, was navigable almost all the way from the North Sea to the Baltic.
I was thinking of a route much farther south. I found this, for what it's worth, in the Wikipedia entry for the Treene river:


In early historical time the strip of dry country between Treene (Niederung) and Schlei had the function of an isthmus. Here the Danewerk secured the south border of Denmark, which at that time was more than 20 km further south running to the Eider. And the route Eider - Treene - Rheider Au (tributary of the Treene) - Schlei served as a shipping route between the North Sea and Baltic Sea (see also Haithabu). Whether thereby boats were pulled between the Schleibucht Selker Noor and the Rheider Au 16 km on primitive rollers over the 20 m high land ridges (usual opinion), or whether the Kograben, 1 to 2 km south of and parallel to the Danewerk, served as the ship canal, is not yet finally clarified.

Beaker folk were presumably undeterred by the future border between Germany and Denmark. If one only wanted to get from the Vistula to the Rhine for some commercial purpose, such as trading amber for tin, the 16 km of portage "on primitive rollers" or whatever might seem attractive in comparison -- either with the whole Kattegat route, or the Limfjord and most of the Kattegat route.