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patrizio22
01-14-2016, 03:55 PM
Hello,

I am an Italian from central Italy, on the Adriatic coast. The region is the Marche. According to the genographic project, my haplogroup is J-z1884 which is a branch of j-m267. On central Italy, on the Apennines mountains we have J1, G2a and T from neolithic middle-eastern farmers. It was a good area for sheepherders. On the internet it looks like my haplogroup is five or six thousands years old but I can't find information about the location. Is my haplogroup consistent with a neolithic immigration from the fertile crescent? Is anyone familiar with this haplogroup? It should come after haplogroup p58 and in some websites they say that after p58 is a semitic branch. On other sites say that it comes before the semitic branch. In continental italy we didn't have muslim medieval invasion, just in sicily. Besides, central Italy belonged to the pope from the 9th to the end of the 19th century.

I'm not an expert in genetics. So, is it consistent with a neolithic immigration or could it come later from Phoenician sailors or others? This is not about ethnic groups, I don't belong to any monotheistic religion, I'm just trying to understand who my ancestor could have been, whoever they were.

Thanks

lgmayka
01-14-2016, 04:14 PM
According to YFull, J-Z1884 (http://yfull.com/tree/J-Z1884/)began to expand about 4400 years ago. Was your test the very latest Geno 2.0 Next Generation, or was it the earlier Geno 2.0 ?

patrizio22
01-14-2016, 04:34 PM
Hello, thanks for the reply. It's the last generation, I've just had the results but I'm not en expert. It took me three days to understand that j-z1884 is j-m264. Perhaps 4400 years ago is a bit late for a neolithic immigration to Italy. Perhaps a roman slave or a phoenician.

Agamemnon
01-14-2016, 05:24 PM
Z1884, better known as L858 (or YSC80) is the most successful branch of YSC234. L829, YSC76, Z640 and FGC11 are all branches of L858, you could argue that roughly 75% of all J1-YSC234 fits in a branch of L858. Its TMRCA is roughly ~5,000 years old (5285 yBP on Victar's tree (http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree)).
An arrival during the Neolithic with Near Eastern farmers is out of the picture of course, all I can say for now is that your paternal ancestors probably spoke a (West) Semitic language since YSC234 is the closest thing we have to a "Semitic" marker. In order to know more, you should test further to find which L858 branch you carry (it's also possible that you belong to a basal and previously unbeknownst branch of L858, I've seen this happen more than once with Italians in other YSC234 branches).

patrizio22
01-14-2016, 06:12 PM
Thanks, I start getting the picture. Probably late arrival due to the roman empire or some merchant-sailors from the middle east.

Agamemnon
01-14-2016, 06:28 PM
Thanks, I start getting the picture. Probably late arrival due to the roman empire or some merchant-sailors from the middle east.

Not necessarily a late arrival, though it is a distinct possibility you could just as well belong to an unbeknownst basal branch of L858. More testing is needed.

patrizio22
01-14-2016, 10:33 PM
Thanks. Ok, so until I decide to do further testing we could probably say that this haplogroup was born in or around Mesopotamia about 5000 years ago and the carrier already spoke some semitic language and the rest of the route to Europe is just guesswork. Do you agree? Thanks again

RCO
01-15-2016, 12:42 AM
Get FTDNA STR DYS markers, 12, 25, 37, 67, 111. Get detailed SNPs (FTDNA Big Y, Full Genomes Corporation). Just observe the geography of the SNPs and STR matches. You can try to find when your haplotype/cluster arrived in your place/region/country from where and try to estimate the age and number of your lineage nodes and the possible itineraries and possible ethno-historical vectors, religions and polities your ancestors-SNPs lived. Welcome to the game !

paulgill
01-15-2016, 01:22 AM
[QUOTE=RCO;133790]Get FTDNA STR DYS markers, 12, 25, 37, 67, 111. Get detailed SNPs (FTDNA Big Y, Full Genomes Corporation). Just observe the geography of the SNPs and STR matches. You can try to find when your haplotype/cluster arrived in your place/region/country from where and try to estimate the age and number of your lineage nodes and the possible itineraries and possible ethno-historical vectors, religions and polities your ancestors-SNPs lived. Welcome to the game ![/Qhe neeUOTE]

What does he need STRs for? All he needs is FGC WGS 10x test and it should take care of all his needs.

RCO
01-15-2016, 02:41 AM
Several databases have been available only with STRs. Sorenson, YHRD, FTDNA, old scientific articles. If we can find a rare modal like in my case, STRs are extremely useful as the only evidence because in some important regions absolutely no detailed specific J1 SNPs have been tested and we can only have STR matches.

Agamemnon
01-15-2016, 02:45 AM
Thanks. Ok, so until I decide to do further testing we could probably say that this haplogroup was born in or around Mesopotamia about 5000 years ago and the carrier already spoke some semitic language and the rest of the route to Europe is just guesswork. Do you agree? Thanks again

I sincerely doubt L858 arose in Mesopotamia, it seems far more likely to me that it initially arose around the Levant... But that's just me and I'm sure others will beg to differ, more research is needed to say for sure. What I'm quite certain of is that your paternal ancestors spoke a West Semitic language at some point.
To those unfamiliar with J1-YSC234's phylogeny that's a bit as if someone found out he (or she) was R1b-L11.

E_M81_I3A
01-15-2016, 07:16 AM
Most J1 in Europe are very likely recent and from North Africa (if we exclude isolated Berber groups, J1 is found generally at frequencies around 20-25% in North Africa)

See for example this study by Capelli

Moors and Saracens in Europe: estimating the medieval North African male legacy in southern Europe, Capelli 2009 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/)

patrizio22
01-15-2016, 11:36 AM
Hello, Thanks. On my genographic project results there's a map showing my ancestors route from Africa, but it stopped at p58 and put p58 in mesopotamia so I thought that was the area. So, if after my haplogroup there aren't jewish branches it means that my ancestors probably spoke arabic (I think there were also semitic languages in mesopotamia) and came to italy as phoenicians or later muslims from southern italy (sicily) or perhaps some maverick iron age middle eastern hippy. Thanks

RCO
01-15-2016, 12:54 PM
Regueiro's article: From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome prospective. No Arab L222.2 J1 types were found in Iberia, only Berber E-M81 types.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25701402


J1a2b2a*-L222.2 is the only J1a2b-lineage observed in the Northwest African (NA) populations of Tunisia and Morocco. In this region, this mutation displays frequencies of 25% in Sfax, 15% in Béja and 17% in Morocco. However, no individuals with this sub-haplogroup were found in Spain where only paragroup J1a2b2*-L147.1 is detected. The highest frequency of L222.2 is seen in Qatar (39%) followed by Oman (12%), Egypt and Bahrain (5%), and UAE and Yemen (2%). Conversely, the L147.1 mutation ranges from 59% in Yemen to 2% in Bahrain. It is interesting to note that J1a2b2a1-L65.2 is observed at low frequencies in Qatar (7%), Bahrain and Yemen (2%) but reaches 21% in UAE. Haplogroup J1a2b1-L92.1 was only detected in two populations and at low frequencies: UAE (4%) and Oman (3%). Undefined paragroup J1a2b*-P58 is found at low frequencies in Yemen (6%), Bahrain (5%), Oman (2%) and Qatar (1%).


European J1 cases have a different dynamic in relation to North Africa. History is decisive to understand the presence and expansions of genetic clusters. I think we can observe religious origins as a very important factor in the formation of European J1 clusters in the last 1000 years. In the case of Iberia and Portugal the "Cristãos Velhos" - Old Christians had a major difference in relation to the Moor and Jew groups after the Reconquista. The demographic impact of the Reconquista can be seen in the development and expansion of the Christian J1 clusters in the Portuguese Empire while war, persecution and difficulties afflicted the others. As the Romans used to say: "Vae victis!", which translates to "woe to the conquered!". Every people has won wars and also lost wars throughout history. I think my cluster J1-M365 had a star-like expansion in the last 1000 years in the Portuguese Empire because they were Christians with a complete difference and genetic distance from the other Non_Christian J1 groups in Western Iberia in which we can still find in very small, isolated and fragmented numbers there nowadays.
Iberian Berber E-M81 are very interesting and recent in Europe. 2100 ybp only !
http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M81/


Most J1 in Europe are very likely recent and from North Africa (if we exclude isolated Berber groups, J1 is found generally at frequencies around 20-25% in North Africa)

See for example this study by Capelli

Moors and Saracens in Europe: estimating the medieval North African male legacy in southern Europe, Capelli 2009 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/)

Agamemnon
01-16-2016, 01:55 AM
Hello, Thanks. On my genographic project results there's a map showing my ancestors route from Africa, but it stopped at p58 and put p58 in mesopotamia so I thought that was the area. So, if after my haplogroup there aren't jewish branches it means that my ancestors probably spoke arabic (I think there were also semitic languages in mesopotamia) and came to italy as phoenicians or later muslims from southern italy (sicily) or perhaps some maverick iron age middle eastern hippy. Thanks

I know of at least 6 jewish branches under L858, moreover only a specific branch of L858 (FGC12 and its sub-branch FGC1723 in particular) is overwhelmingly associated with Arabic speakers. So there a loads of possibilities out there, the best thing to do would be to test further in order to find a specific subclade.

Pegasusphm1
01-17-2016, 04:49 AM
I sincerely doubt L858 arose in Mesopotamia, it seems far more likely to me that it initially arose around the Levant... But that's just me and I'm sure others will beg to differ, more research is needed to say for sure. What I'm quite certain of is that your paternal ancestors spoke a West Semitic language at some point.
To those unfamiliar with J1-YSC234's phylogeny that's a bit as if someone found out he (or she) was R1b-L11.

Do you of a online / offline resource with any detailed information on the various branches of J1, I'm also Italian J1-PF4872. Can't find anything on the PF4872.

Going to upgrade to Y67 first of next month, maybe Y111.

Pegasusphm1
01-17-2016, 04:57 AM
Get FTDNA STR DYS markers, 12, 25, 37, 67, 111. Get detailed SNPs (FTDNA Big Y, Full Genomes Corporation). Just observe the geography of the SNPs and STR matches. You can try to find when your haplotype/cluster arrived in your place/region/country from where and try to estimate the age and number of your lineage nodes and the possible itineraries and possible ethno-historical vectors, religions and polities your ancestors-SNPs lived. Welcome to the game !

Great advice

paulgill
01-17-2016, 05:17 AM
Great advice

I see nothing good in that advice other than the NGS tests , STR tests are obsolete and a complete waste of money.

patrizio22
01-17-2016, 07:47 AM
Do you rule out J1 from greeks and etruscans? From one source I read that the greeks (who owned most of southern Italy) carried greek R1b plus J2 and E1b1b. The etruscans, who apparently had partially central european indoeuropean origin, didn't speak an indoeuropean language and some say had also a contributin from asia minor. Actually, they were a bit too civilised to be the classic central european tribe. In some towns in Tuscany there's a high percentage of J1

Agamemnon
01-17-2016, 05:23 PM
Do you of a online / offline resource with any detailed information on the various branches of J1, I'm also Italian J1-PF4872. Can't find anything on the PF4872.

Going to upgrade to Y67 first of next month, maybe Y111.

PF4872 is a branch of L858, its subclade L829 (TMRCA ~3500 years BP) is one of the best candidates for a Phoenician marker under J1 since it has been found in Lebanon (notably in an individual hailing from Dalhoun, a village in the jabal el chouf region not far from the coastline, itself part of a larger group of villages associated with the Phoenician city-state of Sidon), in Palestinian individuals originally hailing from Ashkelon, in an Israeli Druze sample and in Mediterranean areas normally associated with Phoenician and Punic settlement. PF4872 has also been found in Lebanon, Turkey, Greece and in a sample claiming affiliation to the Tayy' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tayy) tribe (as well as in an Ashkenazi Jew from Lithuania), so an association with Phoenicians might not be circumscribed to its subclade L829. PF4872's TMRCA is ~4225 years old, this seemingly coincides with the emergence of proto-NW Semitic.


Do you rule out J1 from greeks and etruscans? From one source I read that the greeks (who owned most of southern Italy) carried greek R1b plus J2 and E1b1b. The etruscans, who apparently had partially central european indoeuropean origin, didn't speak an indoeuropean language and some say had also a contributin from asia minor. Actually, they were a bit too civilised to be the classic central european tribe. In some towns in Tuscany there's a high percentage of J1

I wouldn't rule anything out at this point, as long as it's not a scenario involving an arrival prior to the copper age. That being said, I'd like to see more J1 data from Italy, that would certainly help in gauging the validity of an association between J1 and the Etruscans.

Pegasusphm1
01-17-2016, 08:00 PM
PF4872 is a branch of L858, its subclade L829 (TMRCA ~3500 years BP) is one of the best candidates for a Phoenician marker under J1 since it has been found in Lebanon (notably in an individual hailing from Dalhoun, a village in the jabal el chouf region not far from the coastline, itself part of a larger group of villages associated with the Phoenician city-state of Sidon), in Palestinian individuals originally hailing from Ashkelon, in an Israeli Druze sample and in Mediterranean areas normally associated with Phoenician and Punic settlement. PF4872 has also been found in Lebanon, Turkey, Greece and in a sample claiming affiliation to the Tayy' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tayy) tribe (as well as in an Ashkenazi Jew from Lithuania), so an association with Phoenicians might not be circumscribed to its subclade L829. PF4872's TMRCA is ~4225 years old, this seemingly coincides with the emergence of proto-NW Semitic.



I wouldn't rule anything out at this point, as long as it's not a scenario involving an arrival prior to the copper age. That being said, I'd like to see more J1 data from Italy, that would certainly help in gauging the validity of an association between J1 and the Etruscans.

Thank you all for you replies to my post. I really appreciate taking time. Interesting Sidon and Greece was brought up.

patrizio22
01-18-2016, 11:43 AM
Hello, there's one thing that I hadn't noticed on the genographic project results. There's a map called heatmap where they show the places where there's the highest percentage of my haplogroup. I don't know whether they used mine or the closest they had. It shows the areas of middle east, georgia, moldova, romania. They also propose a route which goes from the middle east to Georgia, Moldova, Romania and continues through central europe to north eastern france, where they show another area. But perhaps is just because I placed a national geographic order from Paris.

I have also noticed that no one knows the origin of my surname, Brega, in Italy. On the other hand, apart from Italy, there's a Brega surname especially in Moldova, Romania an Ukraine which is a local surname. Sources say it comes from the slavonic "Breg" which means Hill. It is actually the surname of the Moldavian prime minister. It shouldn't be jewish because there's a Moldavian nationalist, Oleg Brega, who run an antisemitic and homophobic radio show, was a fan of adolf hitler and wasn't for sure italian because he's a nationalist who want to reunite romania and moldova. I know that any italian had a surname by the 14th century and mine appeared in milan during this period. I think I'm going too far but there's also the serbian name bregovic which should have the same origin. Is there anyone less ignorant than me who could tell me whether this could be a possible medieval route?

Táltos
01-18-2016, 04:18 PM
It is actually the surname of the Moldavian prime minister. It shouldn't be jewish because there's a Moldavian nationalist, Oleg Brega, who run an antisemitic and homophobic radio show, was a fan of adolf hitler and wasn't for sure italian because he's a nationalist who want to reunite romania and moldova.
I wouldn't come to conclusions based on that. People hide their ancestry, and then over generations their roots are forgotten.

patrizio22
01-18-2016, 07:44 PM
sorry about the idiotic phrase with regards to the nationalist

Agamemnon
01-18-2016, 07:58 PM
Hello, there's one thing that I hadn't noticed on the genographic project results. There's a map called heatmap where they show the places where there's the highest percentage of my haplogroup. I don't know whether they used mine or the closest they had. It shows the areas of middle east, georgia, moldova, romania. They also propose a route which goes from the middle east to Georgia, Moldova, Romania and continues through central europe to north eastern france, where they show another area. But perhaps is just because I placed a national geographic order from Paris.

I have also noticed that no one knows the origin of my surname, Brega, in Italy. On the other hand, apart from Italy, there's a Brega surname especially in Moldova, Romania an Ukraine which is a local surname. Sources say it comes from the slavonic "Breg" which means Hill. It is actually the surname of the Moldavian prime minister. It shouldn't be jewish because there's a Moldavian nationalist, Oleg Brega, who run an antisemitic and homophobic radio show, was a fan of adolf hitler and wasn't for sure italian because he's a nationalist who want to reunite romania and moldova. I know that any italian had a surname by the 14th century and mine appeared in milan during this period. I think I'm going too far but there's also the serbian name bregovic which should have the same origin. Is there anyone less ignorant than me who could tell me whether this could be a possible medieval route?

That sounds a tad bit far-fetched quite frankly, Old Church Slavonic brěgŭ comes from Proto-Slavic *bȇrgъ and has cognates in nearly every branch of the IE language family (such as Gaulish briga "hill", Old Norse berg "cliff", Old Armenian barjr "high", Hittite parku- "tall" and so on and so forth) , which enables us to accurately reconstruct its PIE root as *bʰerǵʰ-.

patrizio22
01-21-2016, 09:33 AM
Many thanks anyone for your help. Especially Agamennon. I'll try and read some stuff to understand more.

patrizio22
01-27-2016, 02:02 PM
Hello, I resurface again because I’ve discovered some previously ignored historical background while searching my last name origins. I don’t have proof yet that my last name is from Ancona, my father’s town on the Adriatic coast but I found out the origins of the town. (I’m still browsing ancient Napoleonic registry documents to have some clues about my last name) Greek colony since 375 B.C. with an important harbour with strong links with the Levant. Then one of the most important roman harbours, eventually a maritime republic during the middle ages with also a strong relationship with the Levant and the Ottoman Empire. Also, the village of Fabriano, where I’ve discovered my family was, is probably the most important paper mill in Italy, whose technique is an evolution of the Arabic one. They previously just imported Arabic paper. Some historians talk about Arabic workforce. Also, this town had one of the most important Jewish communities in Italy. (First Jewish slaves from Rome, then Jewish merchants come by boat, then many Jewish from Spain after 1492)
You said that I should do further y STR testing because my geno 2.0 next generation test was about SNPs therefore deep ancestry. But, for the moment, just to get an historical direction in my search for the origin of my last name and given that my haplogroup is J-z1884, is it possible, just possible, that my family has ancient forgotten Jewish or Arabic roots? I’ve noticed that my haplogroup comes just after the Cohen haplogroup and before the historical Muslim haplogroup, and probably also before other Jewish branches. Also, do you think this historical background is relevant?

The other question is, when I decide to do further testing, what website (company) is the most reliable for my case? I’ve seen there are many. Many thanks again.

patrizio22
01-31-2016, 07:05 PM
According to FTDNA, my haplogroup is now j-z18186, there's only one possible subclade, L1259 which should be the Graham/Jordan project. No SNP testing is recommended, L1259 testing is marked as "available" but this should be a British cluster and I'm Italian. Any date for this haplogroup? Definitely Arabic? Possible Jewish? Is STR testing worth, knowing that there's no Brega surname project? What kind of further testing? Thanks in advance.

Agamemnon
02-01-2016, 12:59 AM
According to FTDNA, my haplogroup is now j-z18186, there's only one possible subclade, L1259 which should be the Graham/Jordan project. No SNP testing is recommended, L1259 testing is marked as "available" but this should be a British cluster and I'm Italian. Any date for this haplogroup? Definitely Arabic? Possible Jewish? Is STR testing worth, knowing that there's no Brega surname project? What kind of further testing? Thanks in advance.

I assume that by L1259, you actually mean L1253 (which, indeed, is the Graham/Jordan marker). Z18186 (AKA BY89) is a subclade of YSC76 and its TMRCA is ~3000 years old. Considering the fact that most of the non-Graham/Jordan folks appear to have reliable tribal Arabian backgrounds (some claim to be Qahtanites, for example), I'd be pretty surprised if your paternal ancestors weren't Arabian (at least that looks like the most parsimonious explanation at this point).
As to the test itself, while I'm not a big supporter of STR testing in general, I'd say it could be warranted in this case, however a Big Y test would be far better.

paulgill
02-01-2016, 01:53 AM
I assume that by L1259, you actually mean L1253 (which, indeed, is the Graham/Jordan marker). Z18186 (AKA BY89) is a subclade of YSC76 and its TMRCA is ~3000 years old. Considering the fact that most of the non-Graham/Jordan folks appear to have reliable tribal Arabian backgrounds (some claim to be Qahtanites, for example), I'd be pretty surprised if your paternal ancestors weren't Arabian (at least that looks like the most parsimonious explanation at this point).
As to the test itself, while I'm not a big supporter of STR testing in general, I'd say it could be warranted in this case, however a Big Y test would be far better.Jordan

Some of these Graham and Jordan may be J1 Sarmatians actually and seem to be close to some Balochs.

Agamemnon
02-01-2016, 02:19 AM
Jordan

Some of these Graham and Jordan may be J1 Sarmatians actually and seem to be close to some Balochs.

I've actually encountered that claim a couple of years ago, when talking to a Graham guy who didn't like the idea of being a patrilineal descendant of the Ay-rabs, and it never made sense to me. I know some of the BY89 guys are called "Al Baloushi", but quite frankly that could just be due to some weird ancestral story their ancestors came up with (or possibly one of their ancestors spent some time in Balochistan hence the label), I wouldn't put much faith into that anyway, we have a guy over at the J1 project not far from my own Cohen subcluster who claims to be a descendant of Genghis Khan for example (I'm not making this up, go check it out) and yet none of the J1 kohanim come up with fancy theories about Temujin being J1-Z18271 so here you have it. Otherwise there's nothing very Sarmatian let alone Iranian about BY89, it's a very Arabian marker and it's a subclade of YSC76. Also, L1253 is far too young to be Sarmatian, its TMRCA is just 500 years old you know.

jesus
02-01-2016, 04:31 AM
I've actually encountered that claim a couple of years ago, when talking to a Graham guy who didn't like the idea of being a patrilineal descendant of the Ay-rabs, and it never made sense to me. I know some of the BY89 guys are called "Al Baloushi", but quite frankly that could just be due to some weird ancestral story their ancestors came up with (or possibly one of their ancestors spent some time in Balochistan hence the label), I wouldn't put much faith into that anyway, we have a guy over at the J1 project not far from my own Cohen subcluster who claims to be a descendant of Genghis Khan for example (I'm not making this up, go check it out) and yet none of the J1 kohanim come up with fancy theories about Temujin being J1-Z18271 so here you have it. Otherwise there's nothing very Sarmatian let alone Iranian about BY89, it's a very Arabian marker and it's a subclade of YSC76. Also, L1253 is far too young to be Sarmatian, its TMRCA is just 500 years old you know.

Al Baloushi is only used by people of Baloch origin in the gulf region, it literally means " the Baloch ". Some Arabs spent some time in coastal Balochistan, but they would always use their original surnames or tribal names. Some Baloch claim Syrian origins though.

patrizio22
02-01-2016, 10:28 AM
Thanks anyone. Since I'm a novice, does testing for l1253 mean only a SNP test? Until I have the money for the big Y is there a way of just testing the L1253? Or should I just wait to have the money for a big test? Sorry if I asked something silly.

Larth
03-03-2016, 02:50 AM
Do you rule out J1 from greeks and etruscans? From one source I read that the greeks (who owned most of southern Italy) carried greek R1b plus J2 and E1b1b. The etruscans, who apparently had partially central european indoeuropean origin, didn't speak an indoeuropean language and some say had also a contributin from asia minor. Actually, they were a bit too civilised to be the classic central european tribe. In some towns in Tuscany there's a high percentage of J1

Not at all, and J1 has nothing to do with the Etruscans.

patrizio22
04-14-2016, 08:26 AM
Hello, a few months back you explained my y haplogroup to me. It was j-z1884 on the genographic project and was later proposed as Z18186 on ftdna. You said that this last haplogroup could already be regarded as arabic. But now ftdna has reviewed my haplogroup and changed it to J-YSC0000080. I couldn't find it on a tree nor anywhere else. Is it j-z1884 again or another haplogroup? It looks to me like it predates the arabic branch. I'm italian and as far as I know (if it's not neolithic) we are much more likely to have ancestry from jewish diaspora or phoenicians or romans from the levant than bedouins which are very unlikely. Any news during the last few months which could attribute a possible ethnic group to this haplogroup? Something like assyrian, babylonian, caananite, jewish or other? Many thanks in advance, Patrizio

Pegasusphm1
05-11-2016, 04:55 AM
Here is something to add as a source of later J1 migration to Italy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoese_colonies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoese_colonies#/media/File:Repubblica_di_Genova.png

Noted Turk - Armenian areas among the Italian colonies.

Italian Levantines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levantines_%28Latin_Christians%29#Italian_Levantin es

patrizio22
07-18-2016, 03:13 PM
My father's family is from Ancona which was a maritime republic and had embassies and offices in the balkans, greece, istambul, the black sea in romania and eastern anatolia, israel and egypt. So it was very similar to Genoa or Venice. Strong relationship with asia minor, greece, the levant and the balkans. It's just that L858 is not marked as specific to one ethnic group in particular, it looks to me like it could be from any semitic language speaker in south west asia and perhaps a tiny bit of asia minor. I'm working on my family name to see if I get some clues. Thanks.
Here is something to add as a source of later J1 migration to Italy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoese_colonies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoese_colonies#/media/File:Repubblica_di_Genova.png

Noted Turk - Armenian areas among the Italian colonies.

Italian Levantines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levantines_%28Latin_Christians%29#Italian_Levantin es

vettor
07-18-2016, 06:33 PM
Hello,

I am an Italian from central Italy, on the Adriatic coast. The region is the Marche. According to the genographic project, my haplogroup is J-z1884 which is a branch of j-m267. On central Italy, on the Apennines mountains we have J1, G2a and T from neolithic middle-eastern farmers. It was a good area for sheepherders. On the internet it looks like my haplogroup is five or six thousands years old but I can't find information about the location. Is my haplogroup consistent with a neolithic immigration from the fertile crescent? Is anyone familiar with this haplogroup? It should come after haplogroup p58 and in some websites they say that after p58 is a semitic branch. On other sites say that it comes before the semitic branch. In continental italy we didn't have muslim medieval invasion, just in sicily. Besides, central Italy belonged to the pope from the 9th to the end of the 19th century.

I'm not an expert in genetics. So, is it consistent with a neolithic immigration or could it come later from Phoenician sailors or others? This is not about ethnic groups, I don't belong to any monotheistic religion, I'm just trying to understand who my ancestor could have been, whoever they were.

Thanks

In the ancient times Corinthian merchants from Syracuse ( sicily ) settled there ( Ancona ) to form their most northern Adriatic settlement , replacing Corfu , which they took from the liburnians earlier.

The south Picene people lived there
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piceni#/media/File:Villaggi_piceni.jpg

confusing is the relationship between South-Picene people with North-picene people who scholars state are a branch of the Liburnian race.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picentes
The theory of sabine settlement there can be the haplogroup you speak of as the sabines had the same markers

Seek the origins of the Sabines and maybe this is were you came from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabines#Origins

lifeisdandy
07-20-2016, 05:17 PM
I don't like people who try to deny their arabian or jewish roots. I am not talking about the origin poster in question but a lot of non arabian european j1's are so dead on finding any other explanation for their j1 marker ... it's your history..be proud of who you are.

vettor
07-20-2016, 06:12 PM
I don't like people who try to deny their arabian or jewish roots. I am not talking about the origin poster in question but a lot of non arabian european j1's are so dead on finding any other explanation for their j1 marker ... it's your history..be proud of who you are.

Correct, but both arabian ( linguistic ) and Jewish ( faith ) are too young in time to claim any haplogroup under themselves. Find your origins before these linguistic or faith inclined times.

Your origins start before any MODERN faith or language scenario.

J1 DYS388=13
07-20-2016, 06:25 PM
I don't like people who try to deny their arabian or jewish roots. I am not talking about the origin poster in question but a lot of non arabian european j1's are so dead on finding any other explanation for their j1 marker ... it's your history..be proud of who you are.

This is anachronistic, an error of placement in time. So many branches of J1 are far older than any religion or modern ethnicity. http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

vettor
07-20-2016, 06:33 PM
This is anachronistic, an error of placement in time. So many branches of J1 are far older than any religion or modern ethnicity. http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

I think we will never have a consensus of the therm origin , because some people claim origin only as far back as their grandparents, others claim as far back as 5 generations , others back to iron-age ..............everyone has their own ideas of their own origins.

In the end, the term origin will never be resolved in society.

lifeisdandy
07-20-2016, 07:09 PM
I think we will never have a consensus of the therm origin , because some people claim origin only as far back as their grandparents, others claim as far back as 5 generations , others back to iron-age ..............everyone has their own ideas of their own origins.

In the end, the term origin will never be resolved in society.

+1 this is true. Not everyone defines the time of their origins the same. To me your origins are based on the timeline of your cluster or the first person to carry your terminal snp which for me are tied to ancient semitic peoples (most likely ancient northern arabian tribes). But like you said not everyone is looking that far. But I still get the feeling sometimes that some euro j1s are very uncomfortable with the idea of potentially being descended from semitic peoples in general. Any cluster under j1-p58 can be highly likely tied to a semitic group.

Babylon_74
07-20-2016, 07:37 PM
Any cluster under j1-p58 can be highly likely tied to a semitic group.

Again you're bound to define what is "Semitic" in this sense?

If you mean by "semitic"a linguistic entity then I can give you couple of Negative P58 semitic language speakers!

lifeisdandy
07-20-2016, 07:57 PM
Again you're bound to define what is "Semitic" in this sense?

If you mean by "semitic"a linguistic entity then I can give you couple of Negative P58 semitic language speakers!

so why have I read a lot of papers etc that state that J1-p58 is typically most frequent in semitic speakers?

Babylon_74
07-20-2016, 10:10 PM
so why have I read a lot of papers etc that state that J1-p58 is typically most frequent in semitic speakers?

I'm asking you .You can not answer a question with a question.

How do you define then the Amharic language?
Those people are J1* or P58 negative

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amharic

10525

RCO
07-20-2016, 10:57 PM
J1 is full of diversity and any ethnicity or religion is only a small subset of a big haplogroup, just like any other. We need articles dealing with NGS-Y DNA like this recent one about Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup N: A Non-trivial Time-Resolved Phylogeography that Cuts across Language Families. Of course ethnicities and religions lived together or fought each other but differences have always been there.

Agamemnon
07-21-2016, 11:52 AM
I'm asking you .You can not answer a question with a question.

How do you define then the Amharic language?
Those people are J1* or P58 negative

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amharic

10525

In fact most of the Amharic J1 reported in Chiaroni et al. 2009 was P58 while "~29% of Semitic Amharic J1 chromosomes are J1*" (presumably P56). East African J1 is sorely understudied, for instance non-Semitic Afroasiatic speakers such as the Omotic-speaking Shekecho, Kefa and Yem have been reported as having high J frequencies, most of which is bound to be J1.

Edward J
07-21-2016, 12:59 PM
Probably worth noting, that I would guess that a large majority of Italians would have J grandfathers outside of their paternal line. So from a bigger picture most Italians would have similar 'roots' regardless of personal haplogroup.

Babylon_74
07-21-2016, 06:06 PM
In fact most of the Amharic J1 reported in Chiaroni et al. 2009 was P58 while "~29% of Semitic Amharic J1 chromosomes are J1*" (presumably P56). East African J1 is sorely understudied, for instance non-Semitic Afroasiatic speakers such as the Omotic-speaking Shekecho, Kefa and Yem have been reported as having high J frequencies, most of which is bound to be J1.

How did you know that the Amharic J1* reported in Chiaroni et al.2009 were in fact J1c3?

Actually there's no solid scientific evidence linking the P58 SNP to Semitic speaking people. In fact even the majority of Semitic speaking Mehri tribe in Socotra are J*

10541

RCO
07-21-2016, 06:30 PM
I really would like to see any of that Socotra J*(XJ1, XJ2) tested again with modern NGS technologies to see if the results would sustain again. No individual from the Arabian Peninsula with a very big number of testees, thousands of people, ever had that results.

Agamemnon
07-21-2016, 06:32 PM
How did you know that the Amharic J1* reported in Chiaroni et al.2009 were in fact J1c3?

"MATERIALS AND METHODS
The nomenclature used for haplogroup labeling is in agreement with YCC
conventions and a recent update.16 All samples designated as haplogroup J1
were determined to be derived at M267. Chromosomes labeled as J1* are
J1(xJ1e). Our study involves a total of 553 haplogroup J1 samples involving 38
populations (Supplementary Table 1). These distribute to 494 J1e-derived and
59 J1* samples. The majority of the samples were experimentally analyzed for
the haplogroup J1e-defining SNP by either RFLP or DHPLC methodology,
except for 55 reported as being of J1 membership from the Sudanese from
Khartoum; Amhara from Addis Ababa, Ethiopia; and Iraqis from Nassiriya.18
These were inferred to belong to J1e based on companion YSTR haplotype
data. The criteria to deduce J1e status involved the filter of DYS388 ≥ 15
repeats and YCAII A, B allele sizes of either 19, 22 or 22, 22. The haplotype data
used in our analyses are given in Supplementary Table 2.

[...]

RESULTS AND DISCUSSION
Figure 1a shows the geographical location of populations included in
this study. J1* chromosomes have their maximal frequency in the
Taurus and Zagros mountain regions of Eastern Anatolia, Northern
Iraq and Western Iran (Figure 1c). It is noted that the J1* chromosomes
frequently appear in combination with the 12 or 13 repeat
pattern at DYS388, whereas the J1e chromosomes almost always
display 15 or more repeats. Therefore, the J1e SNP information
supports the previous inference that J1 chromosomes linked with
DYS388=13 repeats share a common ancestry.1 Network analysis of
J1* chromosomes (Figure 2a) show a bifurcating substructure. One
cluster is associated with DYS388=15 and DYS390>23 repeats and
the other cluster with DYS388=13 repeats. The locale of highest J1*
frequency occurs in the vicinity of eastern Anatolia (Figure 1c). Both
J1* and J1e occur in Sudan and Ethiopia (Supplementary Table 1).
Our data show that the YCAII 22-22 allele state is closely associated
with J1e (Supplementary Table 2). Interestingly, in Ethiopia, all
Cushitic Oromo and ~29% of Semitic Amharic J1 chromosomes
are J1*."

Source: Chiaroni et al. 2009


Actually there's no solid scientific evidence linking the P58 SNP to Semitic speaking people. In fact even the majority of Semitic speaking Mehri tribe in Socotra are J*

10541

P58's TMRCA is 10,000 years old, so thousands of years older than anything remotely Semitic. On the other hand, a vast majority of its branches are found in Semitic-speaking populations, YSC234 for instance, which accounts for a vast majority of P58 in Semitic-speaking populations, has loads of major branches at roughly the same phylogenetic level and its TMRCA goes back to the first half of the 4th millenium BCE, its phylogeny also seems to emulate the phylogeny of Semitic languages so unless this some sort of happy coincidence, it's pretty clear the earliest Semitic-speaking communities carried YSC234 since it is bound to have been at the right place at the right time, in other words it is quite literally the closest thing we have to a Proto-Semitic marker.

Other branches of P58 fit the bill, lifeisdandy's basal P58 cluster for example is bound to be roughly 5,000 years old if we go off the TMRCA estimates, in other words its TMRCA was more or less contemporary with the branches of YSC234 (ZS241, FGC4745, L858 and its branches). This is just an example, a telling one nonetheless.

The fact that J* is found in MSA speakers from Soqotra doesn't disprove this correlation, which was already noticed before we even knew of P58 or YSC234.

sciencediver
07-21-2016, 08:13 PM
I'm not an expert but I don't think you are Arabacio. don't worry too much.


All three branches of J1-L858 (S640, YSC76 and FGC12) are found in Europe, principally in Spain, Italy, central and eastern Europe. Their relatively recent time of divergence with their Middle Eastern cousins (Late Bronze Age to Iron Age) suggests that they would have arrived with the Phoenicians (Sicily, Sardinia, Spain), and later in greater numbers with the Jewish diaspora. Spain and Portugal have the highest percentage of FGC12 in Europe, but this amounts to about 12% of J1 lineages, i.e. less than 0.5% of the population, suggesting that the Arabs had a much smaller genetic impact on the Iberian population than the Jews and the Phoenicians.

lifeisdandy
07-21-2016, 08:26 PM
I'm not an expert but I don't think you are Arabacio. don't worry too much.

you are saying it like he should be worried if he was arab.

sciencediver
07-21-2016, 08:27 PM
you are saying it like he should be worried if he was arab.

matezaalsh meny

lifeisdandy
07-21-2016, 08:29 PM
matezaalsh meny

:( ana zaalana.. malhom il arab?

sciencediver
07-21-2016, 08:33 PM
:( ana zaalana.. malhom il arab?


malhom il arab?

i was just joking , i like arabs.:beerchug:

Agamemnon
07-21-2016, 09:01 PM
Mod: e7kou inglizi ya jama3a ;)

sciencediver
07-21-2016, 09:03 PM
ok lol

Babylon_74
07-25-2016, 12:04 AM
"MATERIALS AND METHODS
The nomenclature used for haplogroup labeling is in agreement with YCC
conventions and a recent update.16 All samples designated as haplogroup J1
were determined to be derived at M267. Chromosomes labeled as J1* are
J1(xJ1e). Our study involves a total of 553 haplogroup J1 samples involving 38
populations (Supplementary Table 1). These distribute to 494 J1e-derived and
59 J1* samples. The majority of the samples were experimentally analyzed for
the haplogroup J1e-defining SNP by either RFLP or DHPLC methodology,
except for 55 reported as being of J1 membership from the Sudanese from
Khartoum; Amhara from Addis Ababa, Ethiopia; and Iraqis from Nassiriya.18
These were inferred to belong to J1e based on companion YSTR haplotype
data. The criteria to deduce J1e status involved the filter of DYS388 ≥ 15
repeats and YCAII A, B allele sizes of either 19, 22 or 22, 22. The haplotype data
used in our analyses are given in Supplementary Table 2.

[...]

RESULTS AND DISCUSSION
Figure 1a shows the geographical location of populations included in
this study. J1* chromosomes have their maximal frequency in the
Taurus and Zagros mountain regions of Eastern Anatolia, Northern
Iraq and Western Iran (Figure 1c). It is noted that the J1* chromosomes
frequently appear in combination with the 12 or 13 repeat
pattern at DYS388, whereas the J1e chromosomes almost always
display 15 or more repeats. Therefore, the J1e SNP information
supports the previous inference that J1 chromosomes linked with
DYS388=13 repeats share a common ancestry.1 Network analysis of
J1* chromosomes (Figure 2a) show a bifurcating substructure. One
cluster is associated with DYS388=15 and DYS390>23 repeats and
the other cluster with DYS388=13 repeats. The locale of highest J1*
frequency occurs in the vicinity of eastern Anatolia (Figure 1c). Both
J1* and J1e occur in Sudan and Ethiopia (Supplementary Table 1).
Our data show that the YCAII 22-22 allele state is closely associated
with J1e (Supplementary Table 2). Interestingly, in Ethiopia, all
Cushitic Oromo and ~29% of Semitic Amharic J1 chromosomes
are J1*."

Source: Chiaroni et al. 2009



I'm afraid that you haven't prove yet that the J1* Semitic speaking Amharic people were P58 positive.

It's obvious that the Amharic results were P56 positive due to its distinctive modal

DYS393=12
DYS390=24
DYS19=14
DYS391=11
DYS385=12-19
DYS388=15
DYS439=11
DYS389i=13
DYS392=11

10616



P58's TMRCA is 10,000 years old, so thousands of years older than anything remotely Semitic. On the other hand, a vast majority of its branches are found in Semitic-speaking populations, YSC234 for instance, which accounts for a vast majority of P58 in Semitic-speaking populations



!!.....

10617

Agamemnon
07-25-2016, 06:54 PM
I'm afraid that you haven't prove yet that the J1* Semitic speaking Amharic people were P58 positive.

It's obvious that the Amharic results were P56 positive due to its distinctive modal

DYS393=12
DYS390=24
DYS19=14
DYS391=11
DYS385=12-19
DYS388=15
DYS439=11
DYS389i=13
DYS392=11

10616


Looking at the STR values, it does indeed seem likely that these samples are P56 instead of P58, the assignment to P58 is probably due to the fact that P56 had not yet been discovered. IMO this just makes the remaining J1* all the more intriguing, it's a shame no one is taking the time to analyse East African J1 as it could have some ramifications on our understanding of J1's history.





!!.....

10617

Maciamo's J1 tree is already outdated, I'd suggest using Victar Mas' tree (which is regularly updated) if you want to make a point.

patrizio22
09-05-2016, 12:09 AM
I don't like people who try to deny their arabian or jewish roots. I am not talking about the origin poster in question but a lot of non arabian european j1's are so dead on finding any other explanation for their j1 marker ... it's your history..be proud of who you are.

According to the genographic project my admixture is 68 per cent south european, 26 per cent asia minor, 2 per cent north africa, 2 per cent arabia and 0 per cent jewish diaspora.
So, in central Italy we have a strong asia minor component. For the genographic project asia minor includes also northern Irak, Syria and Lebanon. According to recent papers the closest admixture match for central Italy, expecially for tuscany and umbria is Armenia or eastern Anatolia and the admixture took place 3000 years ago. I was born 20 miles away from umbria so I must have got some of that admixture. But my j-z1884 must have come from furher south.

How much of my admixture comes from my paternal lineage? Is it 1 or 2 per cent? In which of my components could it fall, in your opinion? Sorry but I don't know the approximate percentage of my y dna.

I've got another question. In the area where I was born we had during the 15th century a massive migration of people from the balkans and also of Jewish refugees from Iberia and southern Italy. We had lost nearly 1/3 of the population because of the black death and they replaced it. This is one of those events that can change dna. Is the 0 per cent Jewish diaspora component I've got reliable? Can I rule out definitely forgotten Jewish ancestry?

Gravetto-Danubian
09-05-2016, 02:01 AM
I'd like to see more clarification on the 'neglected haplogroups' in Europe, incl J1.
People need to be reminded that they could represent vestiges of some kick -ass Sarmatians, which might make European testees more in tune.

patrizio22
09-05-2016, 06:44 AM
I'd like to see more clarification on the 'neglected haplogroups' in Europe, incl J1.
People need to be reminded that they could represent vestiges of some kick -ass Sarmatians, which might make European testees more in tune.

If I analyze my surname, Brega, in northern Italy there are similar or identical surnames and stem from the gaulish or ligure word for "hill", these surnames come from toponyms like Briga or Brega but J1 is very rare in northern Italy.

In the napoleonic registry (1808/1814) my surname is found only in two villages in the Marche region. That suggests a late arrival, say 16th or 17th century.

Given the massive balcanic migration and the sephardic refugees in my area, I had thought about the hebrew word "berakah" which apparently means blessing and generated surnames like Braca in southern Italy or perhaps Brecha/Bracha in eastern europe but I have found no proof of this in the registry. Besides, I appear to have o per cent jewish diaspora component.

There is also the slavic word for "hill" or "slope, riverbank" which should be in ancient slavic Berg and in more recent slavic Breg. According to a moldovan paper, it generated the surname Brega in Moldova, and the forms Bregov, Bregovic, Bregu, etc in other balcanic countries.

So, when you talk about Sarmatians, you were probably thinking about the migration from eastern europe I was talking about, for example Moldova?

But it could also be the odd trader from the middle east.

There is also Brega in Lybia but that's a name given by the italian fascists. It didn't have that name during the middle ages.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-05-2016, 07:49 AM
If I analyze my surname, Brega, in northern Italy there are similar or identical surnames and stem from the gaulish or ligure word for "hill", these surnames come from toponyms like Briga or Brega but J1 is very rare in northern Italy.

Given the massive balcanic migration and the jewish refugees in my area, I had thought about the hebrew word "berakah" which apparently means blessing and generated surnames like Braca in southern Italy or perhaps Brecha/Bracha in eastern europe but I have found no proof of this yet.

There is also the slavic word for "hill" or "slope, riverbank" which should be in ancient slavic Berg and in more recent slavic Breg. According to a moldovan paper, it generated Brega in Moldova, and the forms Bregov, Bregovic, Bregu, etc in other balcanic countries.

So, when you talk about Sarmatians, you were probably thinking about the migration from eastern europe I was talking about, for example Moldova, Ukraine?

There is also Brega in Lybia but that's a name given by the italian fascists. It didn't have that name during the middle ages.

Don't forget the Brygians from ancient Thrace and Macedonia , although we're in speculation land now, and they moved east not west. But it just shows it was a common enough noun.

Back to Samartians: there were several such groups which moved into the Carpathian basin from Ukraine (but their ultimate homeland ranged from Bactria to the pre-Ural region). One group was pacified by the Roman emperor Constantine and 100, 000 (no doubt inflated figure) are said to have been resettled in Macedonia, Italy etc
Later came the Alans-Sarmatians who raided Italy, and settled in Iberia (Goth-Alania, or Catalonia, as one theory goes); not to mention the semi-mythical tale of King Arthur

With more sequencing of modern and ancients; you will be able to pinpoint where your J1 came from

Larth
09-05-2016, 10:16 AM
According to the genographic project my admixture is 68 per cent south european, 26 per cent asia minor, 2 per cent north africa, 2 per cent arabia and 0 per cent jewish diaspora.So, in central Italy we have a strong asia minor component. For the genographic project asia minor includes also northern Irak, Syria and Lebanon.

According to the Genographic project Tuscans have 4% Asia Minor, your "asia minor" is too high for central Italians and your results aren't average for Central Italy. 26% Asia Minor is extremely unexpected even for South Italy. Greeks have 9% Asia Minor, Romanians have 9% Asia Minor, Iberians have 4% Asia Minor and Sardinians have 2% Asia Minor. Romanians and Greeks have more Asia Minor than Tuscans (Central Italians). On the other hand, Tuscans have 28% Western & Central European and 0% Arabia.

https://s22.postimg.io/y9x754ylb/Geno_2_0_South_Europe.jpg


In some towns in Tuscany there's a high percentage of J1

What towns exactly?


According to recent papers the closest admixture match for central Italy, expecially for tuscany and umbria is Armenia or eastern Anatolia and the admixture took place 3000 years ago. I was born 20 miles away from umbria so I must have got some of that admixture. But my j-z1884 must have come from furher south.

You should read again "those recent papers" because they haven't stated that. J1 in the Appennines has very little to do with Etruscans.



I've got another question. In the area where I was born we had during the 15th century a massive migration of people from the balkans and also of Jewish refugees from Iberia and southern Italy. We had lost nearly 1/3 of the population because of the black death and they replaced it. This is one of those events that can change dna. Is the 0 per cent Jewish diaspora component I've got reliable? Can I rule out definitely forgotten Jewish ancestry?

26% Asia Minor. You've very likely recent non-Italian admixture. Btw your surname is nonexistent in Tuscany and Umbria.

patrizio22
09-05-2016, 10:45 AM
J1 is definitely not from the etruscans. Apparently they were mostly J2. I was just talking about admixture. My J1 is not armenian, it should come from the levant or mesopotamia.

In the paper down here they say: “Admixture analysis indicates the presence of 25–34% of Middle Eastern component in modern Tuscans. …genetic distances point to Eastern Anatolia/Southern Caucasus as the most likely geographic origin of the main Middle Eastern genetic component observed in the genome of modern Tuscans.”

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105920#pone-0105920-g001

So, it is different from the genographic project admixture. The fact is that GN doesn't appear to have an italian admixture. They only have tuscany and sardinia. In fact they estimated my origin as 1) Greek, 2) Iberian.

On another thread on this forum there was an australian with italian ancestry and had 28 per cent asia minor component. At first I also thought that I must have had a recent ancestor straight from asia minor, perhaps an adoption, but it looks like we may have this kind of percentages.

Please, look at the caucasian admixture map:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml

My italian surname can be traced to a village a few miles from Umbria back to the late 17th century. It's too far back to have an important asia minor input from abroad. Perhaps they were foreigners in the 16th century but it's not enough to change significantly my admixture.

As for the towns in Tuscany with y dna J1, yes, there are some but I don't remember which ones. But you must understand that in my first posts I had just had my results and was just trying to understand. I had just read a few articles on Eupedia. As you can see I'm still asking questions. But I now know more or less the area where l858 may be found today.

Larth
09-05-2016, 11:52 AM
J1 is definitely not from the etruscans. Apparently they were mostly J2. I was just talking about admixture. My J1 is not armenian, it should come from the levant or mesopotamia.

We still don't know what Y-DNAs were more common among the Etruscans. The only autosomal PCA chart based on three Etruscan samples shows that they fit in the Southern European cluster between Tuscans and Iberians, and even a bit more northern-shifted than them.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qREs-fTUFyk/VVB57pC9eUI/AAAAAAAACjU/xJ5YDY8ABZE/s1600/etruscans.jpg



In the paper down here they say: “Admixture analysis indicates the presence of 25–34% of Middle Eastern component in modern Tuscans. …genetic distances point to Eastern Anatolia/Southern Caucasus as the most likely geographic origin of the main Middle Eastern genetic component observed in the genome of modern Tuscans.”

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105920#pone-0105920-g001

That paper was not taken into great consideration because the authors tried to prove a point without any comparison with the old sample but using modern-day sample only. A large percentage of that Middle Eastern component could be Neolithic, as stated by themselves in the paper (!).


"Considering the recorded as well as the likely unrecorded population flows within Europe in the last couple of thousand years, the study of the Etruscans using modern DNA of their most presumable descendants, the Tuscans, is very challenging. For instance, the date obtained in the present study for the admixture estimates could actually represent a mixture of two European populations ~2,600–3,100 y.a., and not necessarily a mixture of a European and a Middle Eastern population [...] The Middle Eastern genomic patterns observed in present-day Tuscans could also be the result of various overlapping waves of migrants coming from different regions in Middle East and South Caucasus at different times; some of them could have arrived to this region in Neolithic times" (pp. 7-8).


The same authors in a subsequent study failed to confirm these findings. They changed method and they obtained a different result, 8% instead of 21%, Iran instead of Anatolia. Basically they proved what Ghirotto, Tassi and others said in previous papers, that a link between Etruscans and Anatolia dates back to the Neolithic times and to a remote stage of prehistory. As we know this type of connection does not concern only the Etruscans.

"Different analyses reveal the presence of typical Near East haplotypes in Tuscans representing isolated members of various mtDNA phylogenetic branches. As a whole, the Near East component in Tuscan mitogenomes can be estimated at about 8%; a proportion that is comparable to previous estimates but significantly lower than admixture estimates obtained from autosomal SNP data (21%). Phylogeographic and evolutionary inter-population comparisons indicate that the main signal of Near Eastern Tuscan mitogenomes comes from Iran."

Anyway, in both the studies they used the Tuscan sample from The 1000 Genome Project. The geneticist who collected the sample stated that those Tuscan sample aren't very reliable because only three grandparents were born in Tuscany (and actually being born in Tuscany doesn't imply you're full Tuscan), and were collected in a particular town in Tuscany not linked with the Etruscan civilization.

"1) These samples were collected from unrelated individuals in a particular town in Tuscany, Italy. They do not necessarily represent all Tuscans, nor all Italians, whose population history is complex. The samples should not be described merely as "Italian", "Southern European," "European" or "Caucasian" since each of those designators encompasses many populations with many different geographic ancestries.

2) At least three out of four grandparents were born in Tuscany."



So, it is different from the genographic project admixture. The fact is that GN doesn't appear to have an italian admixture. They only have tuscany and sardinia. In fact they estimated my origin as 1) Greek, 2) Iberian.

On another thread on this forum there was an australian with italian ancestry and had 28 per cent asia minor component. At first I also thought that I must have had a recent ancestor straight from asia minor, perhaps an adoption, but it looks like we have this kind of percentages.

In any case 28% is too high and more outlier than average.

patrizio22
09-05-2016, 12:11 PM
If it's too high I should ask my parents if they know of any adoption in the family in the last three of four generations.

Anyway there's something missing here. When it comes to admixture in central Italy they just concentrated on Tuscany. They ignored the adriatic side. We now know that eef was anatolian and was mostly G2a with a little H2 and T. But in the Marche region we have too much of other middle eastern Y haplogroups. I guess we must have the highest percentages of asia minor admixture.

(We are not talking about my j-z1884, we talk about admixture)

Look at the Y haplogroups by regions on this article:

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

If it is reliable you may see that we have a lot less R1b than tuscany, 34 per cent compared with 52.5 in Tuscany. We have a lot more J2, J1, 24.5, 6.5 compared to 11.5%, 2%. We have roughly the same neolithic G.

Even in Umbria, where the umbrians lived, they have only 38 per cent of R1b and more J2, J1 than Tuscany, 24.5, 5.5 per cent, roughly the same E1b1b.

In Abruzzo, 35.5% R1b, 21% j2, 5.5% J1.


It looks like in these regions we may have had caucasian or levantine admixture which blended with italic and eef.

In this study they found a y haplogroups cline between north western (northen and tuscany) and south eastern Italy ( marche and Umbria and southern Italy). They maintain the split happened during the late neolithic: "Our results suggest that the split happened around 5,490 YBP"

Is there anyone more knowlegeable than me who can read this paper?

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

If you look at the Y haplogroups J2 and J1 maps in the Marche, Umbria and Abruzzo we've got more J2 than anyone and a fair amount of J1.

According to Eupedia, in their article on y haplogroup J2, J2a1-M67, the most common subclade in the caucasus and the levant, is also common in the Marche and Abruzzo region.

If you read some papers, this is supposed to have happened during the late neolithic. But weren't EEF Y haplogroups G2a, H2 and T? So how did these middle eastern (I presume )J2 and J1 arrive?

patrizio22
09-05-2016, 12:49 PM
In italic inscriptions, apparently the italic tribe of the picentes in the Marche region called themselves "pupun" and the original tribe from which them and some other italics came out were called "safins". Some say the "safins" were the Sabines from Latium. In the 5th century bc these Picentes or "pupun" were speaking an indo europeans language which they call "south picene". But in the north of this region they found a stone with inscriptions in a language like no other. There's no language like this. It was written in etruscan alphabet but had nothing to do with etruscan. It was from around the 8th century bc. I think they found others further north. They called this language "north picene".

Principe
09-07-2016, 12:36 AM
Patrizio, do not give up your search, it is good that your a looking at records and reading the histories of the places or village you come from. Its the best way to understand origins. I do remember reading that Ancona and Senigallia had lots of contacts with the surrounding Mediterranean nations, also it is true that Sephardic Jews did settle in Ancona after the inquisition but it was not large scale, also from your Nat Geo you do not seem to have Jewish, the only way it could be verified is if your Y or Mt matches are Jewish at Y-37 plus level or have autosomal or FF matches if your on FTDNA, in terms of your 26% Asia Minor, look I have 29% and I am fully Southern Italian, it might be a bit high considering your are from Le Marche but not uncommon a lot of neolithic farmers settled in Le Marche and were Anatolian so maybe thats why your getting this number or a portion of it. Also if I am not mistaken Greeks were involved in Le Marche, it is possible since Greeks had Western Anatolia (Ionian Greeks) and could have been hellenized locals (to them they would have been considered Greek) these are little tips you can use to help your search. For your J1 unfortunately your going to have to dig deeper, maybe there is a possible Arab link check it out, does your surname appear to have Arab origins? And take the reference pops and opinions of others with a grain of salt for Nat Geo, not enough Italians tested on it for there to be a conclusive average, and Tuscan and Sardegna don't represent the entire country. I got Greek and Iberian as my first two and on Gedmatch I get Sicilian and specifically the region where my mom is from (Agrigento), and I think generally most Southern Italians will Greek first as well until they make either make a Southern Italian or Sicilian reference population.

Principe
09-07-2016, 04:24 AM
I don't like people who try to deny their arabian or jewish roots. I am not talking about the origin poster in question but a lot of non arabian european j1's are so dead on finding any other explanation for their j1 marker ... it's your history..be proud of who you are.

I agree with you 100%, there is nothing wrong with having Middle Eastern ancestry, I definately have distant Jewish heritage based on Y, Autosomal, and FF, and possible Berber in the past, regardless I observe our similarities and am proud of it.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-07-2016, 06:13 AM
Could I ask please for any thoughts on my Mt dna J1c1b2a?
I'm in the UK, recent ancestry Welsh borders, none outside the UK as far as I know. Is it likely to indicate early, possibly Neolithic migration in the UK context?
I tested chromo2 and have just sent in a Family Finder test with a view to doing BigY. Could this group account for "similar to" Ashkenazi in my European Ancestry comparisons ( no known Jewish ancestry).
I've still a lot to learn about about dna interpretation, so any thoughts and advice on researching historic origins appreciated. Thank you.

Larth
09-07-2016, 01:45 PM
If it's too high I should ask my parents if they know of any adoption in the family in the last three of four generations.

Anyway there's something missing here. When it comes to admixture in central Italy they just concentrated on Tuscany. They ignored the adriatic side. We now know that eef was anatolian and was mostly G2a with a little H2 and T. But in the Marche region we have too much of other middle eastern Y haplogroups. I guess we must have the highest percentages of asia minor admixture.

(We are not talking about my j-z1884, we talk about admixture)

Look at the Y haplogroups by regions on this article:

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

If it is reliable you may see that we have a lot less R1b than tuscany, 34 per cent compared with 52.5 in Tuscany. We have a lot more J2, J1, 24.5, 6.5 compared to 11.5%, 2%. We have roughly the same neolithic G.

Even in Umbria, where the umbrians lived, they have only 38 per cent of R1b and more J2, J1 than Tuscany, 24.5, 5.5 per cent, roughly the same E1b1b.

In Abruzzo, 35.5% R1b, 21% j2, 5.5% J1.


It looks like in these regions we may have had caucasian or levantine admixture which blended with italic and eef.

In this study they found a y haplogroups cline between north western (northen and tuscany) and south eastern Italy ( marche and Umbria and southern Italy). They maintain the split happened during the late neolithic: "Our results suggest that the split happened around 5,490 YBP"

Is there anyone more knowlegeable than me who can read this paper?

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

If you look at the Y haplogroups J2 and J1 maps in the Marche, Umbria and Abruzzo we've got more J2 than anyone and a fair amount of J1.

According to Eupedia, in their article on y haplogroup J2, J2a1-M67, the most common subclade in the caucasus and the levant, is also common in the Marche and Abruzzo region.

If you read some papers, this is supposed to have happened during the late neolithic. But weren't EEF Y haplogroups G2a, H2 and T? So how did these middle eastern (I presume )J2 and J1 arrive?

I'm confused by your method of searching. Are you searching for your origins or those of all the people from Marche? If someone wants to search for his own roots first he must reconstruct the family tree through the archives. It is not easy but not impossible. I have a family tree for two out of four grandparents until the end of 1400. For the other two the late 1700s and early 1800s. I discovered many interesting things that have completely changed what I knew about my origins. Making continuous comparisons with ancient peoples who lived in an area is wrong approach and method, because there is no evidence that the populations in a specific area are exactly the same as 3000 or 4000 years ago, let alone that you're descended entirely from these populations.

I fear you're confusing the distribution of Y-DNA and mt-DNA haplogroups with the autosomal. Y-DNA and mt-DNA represents only a part of your ancestry, the autosmal represents the whole ancestry. Speaking more generally, the central Italian Tuscany as distribution of Y- DNA haplogroups is closer to North-West Italy, there is no doubt. While Umbria, Marche and Abruzzo are closer to central-southern eastern Italy. This reflects their history, but autosomally aren't exactly the same. Marche and Umbria are central Italian, while Abruzzo is southern Italian, for many aspects transitional between central and south Italy. Anyway the Adriatic side will be studied in a forthcoming study and Marche is a very a special case because it is the only region where all three main types of Italian dialects are spoken: northern, central and southern Italian.

Umbria, Marche, and Abruzzo have more J2 and J1 than Tuscany, because they are more similar to the distribution of a southeasten European population: Greece J2 23% J1 3% (Crete J2 34%, J1 5%), Albania J2 19.5%, J1 2 %. But J2 and J1 are present in most of the European people. Bulgaria J2 11%, J1 3%, Romania J2 13.5%, J1 1.5%, Macedonia J2 14 %, J1 2%, Austria J2 9%, J1 1%, Portugal J2 9.5%, J1 3%, Galicia (Spain) J2 10.5%, J1 4%... Even Germans and Dutch have J2 and J1.

Many factors may have contributed to the spread of these Y-DNA haplogoups, including the founder effect, but it is quite clear that much of the J2 and J1 in Europe isn't necessarily a late arrival.

In the late Bronze Age a J2a1 individual has been found in Hungary, positive for J-M67. All your speculation seems outdated.


A new finding is that the Bronze Age individual BR2 belonged to haplogroup J2a1. I think this is the first time this has been found in ancient DNA and it falsifies the Phoenician sea-faring theory of the dispersal of this lineage.

Morges
09-07-2016, 01:55 PM
J1 don't means necessarely Arab origins. Arabian J1 has a typical subclade (L222) and a specific TMRCA, did you belong to this subclade?

patrizio22
09-07-2016, 03:12 PM
Does anyone know how to pronounce these arabic surnames? My surname is Brega and appeared around the 17th century. Is it like I read it?

Abergel (Arabic : أبيرجل, Hebrew : אברג'ל), also spelled Abargil, Abergil, Abourgil, Abourgal, Abourjal, Abirjal, Aberjel) is a Moroccan Arabic Jewish surname

Barakat (in Arabic بركات) is an Arabic surname. It is the plural form of Barakah (بركة) meaning blessing.

Do you have tips?

patrizio22
09-07-2016, 03:18 PM
My method is: Through napoleonic registry (1808/1814) I have narrowed my surname down to only two villages in ancona and urbino (Marche). They were there during the 18th and may have arrived during the 16th or 17th. There's an identical surname in Lombardy but they have 0 percent J1 over there. In Italy the same surname has very often three or four different origins, it means that they are three or four different surnames.

There was a geneticist called Agnese Brega from Lombardy. (you can find her as Brega A. in many papers) I tried to email her to old email adresses in the universities of Milan and Pavia to ask her Y dna but they are not active. She must be retired.

lifeisdandy
09-07-2016, 03:28 PM
Does anyone know how to pronounce these arabic surnames? My surname is Brega and appeared around the 17th century. Is it like I read it?

Abergel (Arabic : أبيرجل, Hebrew : אברג'ל), also spelled Abargil, Abergil, Abourgil, Abourgal, Abourjal, Abirjal, Aberjel) is a Moroccan Arabic Jewish surname

Barakat (in Arabic بركات) is an Arabic surname. It is the plural form of Barakah (بركة) meaning blessing.

Do you have tips?

yes it is how you read it... what does brega mean in italian?

patrizio22
09-07-2016, 03:32 PM
yes it is how you read it... what does brega mean in italian?

Nothing, except Brega-fight, quarrel in latin vulgar (renaissance period) , Lingue d'oc (occitan) in southern france and contemporary spanish.

Abd.H
09-07-2016, 03:53 PM
In Arabic ,Abo = father (and some times they used abo as a possession word to refer for some thing owned by some one ) , and ,Rejel = leg .So if someone for example has abnormal leg ,people might call him abo rejel ,and surnames like this are common in Arabic countries ,for example in Syria we have sunames like : Abo ras (ras = head ) , Abo sha'ar (sha'ar = hair ) , Abo dan (dan =ear )

Larth
09-07-2016, 04:15 PM
Does anyone know how to pronounce these arabic surnames? My surname is Brega and appeared around the 17th century. Is it like I read it?

Abergel (Arabic : أبيرجل, Hebrew : אברג'ל), also spelled Abargil, Abergil, Abourgil, Abourgal, Abourjal, Abirjal, Aberjel) is a Moroccan Arabic Jewish surname

Barakat (in Arabic بركات) is an Arabic surname. It is the plural form of Barakah (بركة) meaning blessing.

Do you have tips?

Brega hasn't Arabic origin, you're just wasting your time. First, because the linguistic origin of a surname has very little to do with the ethnic origin. In Italy surnames of Germanic origin are very common but this doesn't imply Germanic ancestry. It only means that many surnames were formed when the Germanic influence on the Italian onomastic was strong. Second, without a long research you won't ever know the true origin of your surname. Many surnames were misspelled on accident by archivists who were often priests with a degree of education just above the average. My last name changed at least 10 times from 1400 to 1800.

Principe
09-07-2016, 04:35 PM
Does anyone know how to pronounce these arabic surnames? My surname is Brega and appeared around the 17th century. Is it like I read it?

Abergel (Arabic : أبيرجل, Hebrew : אברג'ל), also spelled Abargil, Abergil, Abourgil, Abourgal, Abourjal, Abirjal, Aberjel) is a Moroccan Arabic Jewish surname

Barakat (in Arabic بركات) is an Arabic surname. It is the plural form of Barakah (بركة) meaning blessing.

Do you have tips?

Patrizio, if you want I'll help you out, did you test Y-12, Y-25, or Y-37 to see your closest Y matches? This will start to give you a stronger idea, and yes I am Azzurro from Eupedia, its funny how Angela already has her wild assumptions and blah blah, crazy talk, I put Principe here cause my nonna used to call me "Principe Azzurro" so ya theory debunked, nah I'm not making fun of you, you got a similar dna pattern to mine, so trying to help a brother out.

Principe
09-07-2016, 04:56 PM
Could I ask please for any thoughts on my Mt dna J1c1b2a?
I'm in the UK, recent ancestry Welsh borders, none outside the UK as far as I know. Is it likely to indicate early, possibly Neolithic migration in the UK context?
I tested chromo2 and have just sent in a Family Finder test with a view to doing BigY. Could this group account for "similar to" Ashkenazi in my European Ancestry comparisons ( no known Jewish ancestry).
I've still a lot to learn about about dna interpretation, so any thoughts and advice on researching historic origins appreciated. Thank you.

John Howells, J1 mtdna and Y-dna are two different stories, I think its been there for a long time, King Richard III of England had an Mtdna of J1, so its pretty common in your area or at least not un heard of, in terms of Ashkenazi, it all depends on your Mt matchs or FF matches, look for matches that are Jewish if not other signs like having Southern European or Latin American matches.

Principe
09-07-2016, 05:04 PM
My method is: Through napoleonic registry (1808/1814) I have narrowed my surname down to only two villages in ancona and urbino (Marche). They were there during the 18th and may have arrived during the 16th or 17th. There's an identical surname in Lombardy but they have 0 percent J1 over there. In Italy the same surname has very often three or four different origins, it means that they are three or four different surnames.

There was a geneticist called Agnese Brega from Lombardy. (you can find her as Brega A. in many papers) I tried to email her to old email adresses in the universities of Milan and Pavia to ask her Y dna but they are not active. She must be retired.

Patrizio, I couldnt find necessarily anything on your surname, if you go on cognomix you see its even found in other regions all Central-North only 1 in Puglia, I found a variant of your surname Bourega which appears to be Maghrebi in origin (North African) with its highest frequency in Algerie, so maybe a merchant came to Ancona and settled more recently? It could explain your 2% North African and 2% East Middle East, as he maybe originally was a North African Arab.

patrizio22
09-07-2016, 05:22 PM
In Arabic ,Abo = father (and some times they used abo as a possession word to refer for some thing owned by some one ) , and ,Rejel = leg .So if someone for example has abnormal leg ,people might call him abo rejel ,and surnames like this are common in Arabic countries ,for example in Syria we have sunames like : Abo ras (ras = head ) , Abo sha'ar (sha'ar = hair ) , Abo dan (dan =ear )

There's a Brega town in Lybia which was once called Marsa el Burayquah. Burayquah should mean something like lightning. The toponym Brega was given by the italian fascists so perhaps it sounded something similar. But before oil was found it was just a small fishing village so I wouldn't rely on that. We didn't have commercial relashionships with Lybia. More with the balkans, the black sea and the levant.

I found a Burayqah in Syria. How do you pronounce it? If my ancestors weren't Brega from northern Italy they could have been immigrants.

Toponyms, father's first name were often the origin of surnames.

Abd.H
09-07-2016, 06:06 PM
Burayj in Arabic means [ small tower ] and in some dialects they say 'breij'
There are many places called Burayj
1 - a Syrian village called '' Bureij ''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureij,_Syria
2 - a village near Jerusalem called '' Al-Burayj ''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Burayj
3 - Bureij Camp in Gaza and it is spelled ''el-Breij '' in Palestinian dialect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureij

vettor
09-07-2016, 06:07 PM
There's a Brega town in Lybia which was once called Marsa el Burayquah. Burayquah should mean something like lightning. The toponym Brega was given by the italian fascists so perhaps it sounded something similar. But before oil was found it was just a small fishing village so I wouldn't rely on that. We didn't have commercial relashionships with Lybia. More with the balkans, the black sea and the levant.

Could "burayqah" have generated surnames or is it just toponyms?

This hebrew word "berakah" (blessing) probably sounds "bracha" and I've found surnames Braca (south italy), Bracha, Brecha (east europe) which I've read should come from that. But I have no jewish diaspora dna.

The arabic Barakat should be roughly the same (blessing) but you said it is pronounced like you read it.

What about first names? Italian surnames stem often from the father's name.

If you've got more, feel free

Are you from Molise ?................did I give you a link to registry records for your line there?

Brega is in Moilise/Marche ..............drill down into the 111 names in link below

http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/BREGA

kabeiros
09-07-2016, 06:10 PM
Have you seen this FTDNA group? The Brega family from Baltimore, MD, they are Jewish, their original surname was Balabrega/Valabrega. They were Sephardi from Spain who fled to Italy and to Northern Europe and became Ashkenazi. Some of them did replace their original surname Balabrega/Valabrega with Brega.


"In the U.S., members of the Brega family searched historical records, visited gravesites and spent countless hours of research to determine the Brega genealogical record.

We first traced our lineage back to Solomon (Bala) Brega, editor and publisher born 1790 in Baltimore, MD, and flourished in the 1840s and 1850s in Hamilton, Peel County, Ontario. In 1813, a Solomon B. Brega of Charlestown, Mass. printed "The Freeman's Guide", a collection of state constitutions then existing, plus the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution. Our most recent research indicates that Solomon probably changed his name from Balabrega around 1809-1810 and that his father's name was Jacob Balabrega of Philadelphia and Baltimore. Additional research indicates that William P. Brega, Solomon's first son, changed his name to William Brega Davis around 1835.

Due to recent finds by Brega genealogists, we have reason to believe the surname Balabrega/Valabrega will show yDNA matches to "Brega". In addition, the surname Davis may show yDNA matches.

New members to the Brega surname project can provide additional information we hope to fit more pieces into the puzzle, as is stated in our "Goals" page."

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/brega/about

Raphael Balabrega
http://www.dutchjewry.org/genealogy/ashkenazi/15005.shtml

Abraham Balabrega

http://www.dutchjewry.org/genealogy/vega/211.shtml

Balabrega (F) From Valabregue, France

https://findmyheritage.wordpress.com/pop-culture/list-of-sephardic-jewish-surnames/

Principe
09-07-2016, 06:13 PM
Burayj in Arabic means [ small tower ] and in some dialects they say 'breij'
There are many places called Burayj
1 - a Syrian village called '' Bureij ''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureij,_Syria
2 - a village near Jerusalem called '' Al-Burayj ''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Burayj
3 - Bureij Camp in Gaza and it is spelled ''el-Breij '' in Palestinian dialect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureij

Abd.H, can you actually help me with mine as well, my ancestral surname is Garramune, I got that Garram means love in Arabic but dont know where the une, if you can find anything a place or a specific person with a similar or explanation it would be much appreciated.

vettor
09-07-2016, 06:15 PM
There's a Brega town in Lybia which was once called Marsa el Burayquah. Burayquah should mean something like lightning. The toponym Brega was given by the italian fascists so perhaps it sounded something similar. But before oil was found it was just a small fishing village so I wouldn't rely on that. We didn't have commercial relashionships with Lybia. More with the balkans, the black sea and the levant.

Could "burayqah" have generated surnames or is it just toponyms?

This hebrew word "berakah" (blessing) probably sounds "bracha" and I've found surnames Braca (south italy), Bracha, Brecha (east europe) which I've read should come from that. But I have no jewish diaspora dna.

The arabic Barakat should be roughly the same (blessing) but you said it is pronounced like you read it.

What about first names? Italian surnames stem often from the father's name.

If you've got more, feel free

Your surname would be a shorten name from something similar due to testament privileges system in some Italian regions in the past.
Brega could have connections from surname Bregalda in Lombardy and Veneto region ........... oldest found is from Castelgomberto (VI)

vettor
09-07-2016, 06:16 PM
Have you seen this FTDNA group? The Brega family from Baltimore, MD, they are Jewish, their original surname was Balabrega/Valabrega. They were Sephardi from Spain who fled to Italy and to Northern Europe and became Ashkenazi. Some of them did replace their original surname Balabrega/Valabrega with Brega.


"In the U.S., members of the Brega family searched historical records, visited gravesites and spent countless hours of research to determine the Brega genealogical record.

We first traced our lineage back to Solomon (Bala) Brega, editor and publisher born 1790 in Baltimore, MD, and flourished in the 1840s and 1850s in Hamilton, Peel County, Ontario. In 1813, a Solomon B. Brega of Charlestown, Mass. printed "The Freeman's Guide", a collection of state constitutions then existing, plus the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution. Our most recent research indicates that Solomon probably changed his name from Balabrega around 1809-1810 and that his father's name was Jacob Balabrega of Philadelphia and Baltimore. Additional research indicates that William P. Brega, Solomon's first son, changed his name to William Brega Davis around 1835.

Due to recent finds by Brega genealogists, we have reason to believe the surname Balabrega/Valabrega will show yDNA matches to "Brega". In addition, the surname Davis may show yDNA matches.

New members to the Brega surname project can provide additional information we hope to fit more pieces into the puzzle, as is stated in our "Goals" page."

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/brega/about

Raphael Balabrega
http://www.dutchjewry.org/genealogy/ashkenazi/15005.shtml

Abraham Balabrega

http://www.dutchjewry.org/genealogy/vega/211.shtml

Balabrega (F) From Valabregue, France

https://findmyheritage.wordpress.com/pop-culture/list-of-sephardic-jewish-surnames/

Brega and Braga are very popular in Portugal and Brazil

kabeiros
09-07-2016, 06:20 PM
Brega and Braga are very popular in Portugal and Brazil

Yes, but Valabrega and Balabrega are Jewish. Probably also some Jewish carries Brega as surname. But the Portuguese and Italian Brega are of Celtic origin (Brich/Breg/Breagh).

Kings of Brega in Ireland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Brega

patrizio22
09-07-2016, 06:38 PM
Are you from Molise ?................did I give you a link to registry records for your line there?

Brega is in Moilise/Marche ..............drill down into the 111 names in link below

http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/BREGA

No, I'm not from Molise. One Brega is originally from around Pavia in norther Italy and mine from Ancona.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-07-2016, 06:39 PM
John Howells, J1 mtdna and Y-dna are two different stories, I think its been there for a long time, King Richard III of England had an Mtdna of J1, so its pretty common in your area or at least not un heard of, in terms of Ashkenazi, it all depends on your Mt matchs or FF matches, look for matches that are Jewish if not other signs like having Southern European or Latin American matches.

Thank you for the reply - it is appreciated. I'm looking forward to finding out what my matches might be.
This is my Chromo 2 European comparison. I have researched my ancestry back a couple of hundred years, none of them are from outside the UK as far as I know, but I might be proved wrong. :)

11469

Abd.H
09-07-2016, 06:40 PM
Abd.H, can you actually help me with mine as well, my ancestral surname is Garramune, I got that Garram means love in Arabic but dont know where the une, if you can find anything a place or a specific person with a similar or explanation it would be much appreciated.
In Arabic ''una'' means ''our'', so if I heard the word '' garramuna '' I would understand it as '' our love ''

patrizio22
09-07-2016, 06:42 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Brega



Valabrega were from Valabregues in southern France. They were a group of sephardic jews from Spain. They changed their surname to Brega in America. They've got a ftdna project, their Y dna is T.

Brega from Lombardy probably comes from ligure or celtic toponyms Briga, there are many, but I don't know if I'm related.

vettor
09-07-2016, 06:43 PM
Yes, but Valabrega and Balabrega are Jewish. Probably also some Jewish carries Brega as surname. But the Portuguese and Italian Brega are of Celtic origin (Brich/Breg/Breagh).

Kings of Brega in Ireland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Brega

If he is Italian , then the name was mostly likely regionalised or provincianalised...as an example.........my surname from the 11th century came from Ropreto in south-Tyrol ( trentino Italy ), once it entered into Veneto via trentino, it was written down differently depending on which of the 7 provinces of veneto one lived.

Currently I found that the typical veneto surname endings applied depending on province...........ie otto in northern veneto, ato in southern veneto, igo in Venice and lagoon areas and the shortest version is in western veneto..................then you have scribes mis-writing the surname in registries and then for me I have the Italian government making a small change after WW2 ( so my father being born with one name ( following his line ) and an extra letter added by the government after WW2 )
Its only one letter but that's the difference between ancient regional languages and the modern Italian language

So for Mr. Brega , he has a lot of studying to do, but if he is the person I linked his registry files to for his paternal line, then he should follow these old files and ignore the other internet possibilities.

patrizio22
09-07-2016, 06:45 PM
In Arabic ''una'' means ''our'', so if I heard the word '' garramuna '' I would understand it as '' our love ''

I've found a Burayqah place in Syria. Does it sound like Brega?

Abd.H
09-07-2016, 06:54 PM
I've found a Burayqah place in Syria. Does it sound like Brega?

I think you mean this village https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bariqa
it's situated in south Syria
in Horani dialects ,which is spoken in southern Syria ,they replace the 'q' sound with 'g' sound ,so in this area I think it will possibly spelled as el-Briga

Principe
09-07-2016, 07:09 PM
In Arabic ''una'' means ''our'', so if I heard the word '' garramuna '' I would understand it as '' our love ''

Thanks alot Abd. H, much appreciated, probably when it entered italy the ending was switched to an e based on pronounciation, the Italianized version, now my main focus will be to try and find if there was a family or a person who had that surname in past, you think it would be a stretch if it was Garram and the una was added later? Or was it always Garramuna?

patrizio22
09-07-2016, 07:10 PM
Brega and Braga are very popular in Portugal and Brazil

There were some Braga in Ancona not far from my father village. It appears that some conversos took the surname Braga which was gentile in Portugal. Conversos also had to leave Iberia because they were persecuted. They could be the ones in Ancona. But I have no jewish component.

Braga is portuguese

kabeiros
09-07-2016, 07:16 PM
Thanks alot Abd. H, much appreciated, probably when it entered italy the ending was switched to an e based on pronounciation, the Italianized version, now my main focus will be to try and find if there was a family or a person who had that surname in past, you think it would be a stretch if it was Garram and the una was added later? Or was it always Garramuna?

Garramuna, Garramune and Garramuño are all Spanish

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Alberto_Garramu%C3%B1o

Principe
09-07-2016, 07:17 PM
Thank you for the reply - it is appreciated. I'm looking forward to finding out what my matches might be.
This is my Chromo 2 European comparison. I have researched my ancestry back a couple of hundred years, none of them are from outside the UK as far as I know, but I might be proved wrong. :)

11469

It is my pleasure :), are you on Gedmatch? If not I suggest to go on it, as you will find many matches, just to add based on my personal experiences as a guide, I am fully Southern Italian based on the last couple of hundred years and my autosomal comprises Southern Europe, Asia Minor, Jewish and North African, and I have alot of matches from the UK, which shouldnt happen, so because of Gedmatch I was able to see that my UK matches match me on segements that I have Jewish matches on as well as Portugese, Spanish and Latinos, so it was a migration that probably took place around the Inquisition, alot of Sephardic Jews came to the UK after the Inquisition and had there names Anglizied, also additional Ashkenazi Jews came to England centuries later this would be easier to find, since it is more recent.

patrizio22
09-07-2016, 07:30 PM
Brega hasn't Arabic origin, you're just wasting your time. First, because the linguistic origin of a surname has very little to do with the ethnic origin. In Italy surnames of Germanic origin are very common but this doesn't imply Germanic ancestry. It only means that many surnames were formed when the Germanic influence on the Italian onomastic was strong. Second, without a long research you won't ever know the true origin of your surname. Many surnames were misspelled on accident by archivists who were often priests with a degree of education just above the average. My last name changed at least 10 times from 1400 to 1800.

Yes, I can confirm the spelling mistakes.

The Brega surname from Lombardy is in an area where they had first the gauls, then the germanic Lombards, then the Franks and then again the germanic empire
of Federico Barbarossa. Toponyms are either Gaulish romanised or Germanic. Perhaps I'll find out if I'm related to them. But I'm learning a lot of things.

From google books:
-Petrusbonus Brega was an hostage of Federico Barbarossa in 1158 in Piacenza.
-Remigius Brega was the son of a knight, Montenarius, in Monza (Milan) in 1216
-Augerius (or Augier) Brega was a knight in Avignon (France) in 1247

But who knows if I'm related to those from the north. In my region, further south they were poor farmers in a small village.

In a genealogy forum they told me to concentrate on my region and leave alone those.

Principe
09-07-2016, 07:32 PM
Garramuna and Garramuño are Spanish

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Alberto_Garramu%C3%B1o

Kabeiros, I explored that possiblity but that surname only starts to appear in the Basque in the 17th century, I found a latin document which has my ancestral surname in 1439, so it predates the Garramuna and Garramūno line in Spain, I have been at it for the last several months and explored many options. Thanks for your help anyways, I appreciate it.

In that same document, it states that my ancestor was granted land in a neighbouring village from my father's village in 1439, he was an immigrant from Constantinople, so now where i am it was they were originally a Jewish family from either North Africa or Al-Andalus came to Constantinople as merchants converted to Christianity, but still kept their original surname. As Garramune does not sound Greek and there is a good translation in Arabic as Abd. H stated.

kabeiros
09-07-2016, 07:45 PM
Kabeiros, I explored that possiblity but that surname only starts to appear in the Basque in the 17th century, I found a latin document which has my ancestral surname in 1439, so it predates the Garramuna and Garramūno line in Spain, I have been at it for the last several months and explored many options. Thanks for your help anyways, I appreciate it.

Ok, but Garramune doesn't even exist in Italy.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-07-2016, 07:57 PM
It is my pleasure :), are you on Gedmatch? If not I suggest to go on it, as you will find many matches, just to add based on my personal experiences as a guide, I am fully Southern Italian based on the last couple of hundred years and my autosomal comprises Southern Europe, Asia Minor, Jewish and North African, and I have alot of matches from the UK, which shouldnt happen, so because of Gedmatch I was able to see that my UK matches match me on segements that I have Jewish matches on as well as Portugese, Spanish and Latinos, so it was a migration that probably took place around the Inquisition, alot of Sephardic Jews came to the UK after the Inquisition and had there names Anglizied, also additional Ashkenazi Jews came to England centuries later this would be easier to find, since it is more recent.

I'm planning to try Gedmatch when I have my Family Finder results. I don't think my Chromo 2 results are compatible. I'm not great with technology and have only a very basic knowledge of dna. :)
I think it's possible my Ydna U106 Z326 may have a link to the Lombards. I believe my sub-group S11136 was first found in a Tuscan man, so it will be interesting to see if any other matches come up for Italy. Thank you for the information.

Principe
09-07-2016, 07:58 PM
Ok, but Garramune doesn't even exist in Italy.

The name then became Garramone, its highest frequency is in Basilicata the region where my paternal side is from, and Garramone derives from Garramune I saw it on two Italian genealogical sities.

Principe
09-07-2016, 08:06 PM
Again my pleasure, I guess due time you will find out, and yes its possible you will get matches from Tuscans, it will probably be more ancient and appear as very distant matches, who knows maybe you descend from a Roman soldier ;) Though the typical Roman Y would be R1b-U152, its possible some S11136's could have been Roman soldiers.

kabeiros
09-07-2016, 08:19 PM
The name then became Garramone, its highest frequency is in Basilicata the region where my paternal side is from, and Garramone derives from Garramune I saw it on two Italian genealogical sities.

Interesting, thanks.


Kabeiros, I explored that possiblity but that surname only starts to appear in the Basque in the 17th century, I found a latin document which has my ancestral surname in 1439, so it predates the Garramuna and Garramūno line in Spain, I have been at it for the last several months and explored many options. Thanks for your help anyways, I appreciate it.

In that same document, it states that my ancestor was granted land in a neighbouring village from my father's village in 1439, he was an immigrant from Constantinople, so now where i am it was they were originally a Jewish family from either North Africa or Al-Andalus came to Constantinople as merchants converted to Christianity, but still kept their original surname. As Garramune does not sound Greek and there is a good translation in Arabic as Abd. H stated.

This one is your ancestor?

Ioannes Garramune (1439) Constantinople, Byzantium J-Z482

Principe
09-07-2016, 08:25 PM
Kaberios, Yes it is you got it on Ftdna right? I am on a couple of projects there, are you on Ftdna as well? Are you J-Z482 or L210?

kabeiros
09-07-2016, 08:28 PM
Kaberios, Yes it is you got it on Ftdna right? I am on a couple of projects there, are you on Ftdna as well.

Right, he is also in the Iberian Ashkenazi group.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianSurnamesofAshkenaz/default.aspx?section=ysnp

Principe
09-07-2016, 08:36 PM
Yes, as I said I am on many projects, I believe my ancestor was originally either from North Africa or Iberia, as I have many matches on gedmatch with Jewish, Portuguese, Spanish, Latino and UK matching on particular segements, and at the time I joined the project that was the information I had, I got it from an Italian Rabbi genealogist.

Principe
09-07-2016, 08:42 PM
Right, he is also in the Iberian Ashkenazi group.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianSurnamesofAshkenaz/default.aspx?section=ysnp

I have been actively researching my ancestry since 2012, I only did the DNA test last October and it has led me to many interesting finds, my research is constantly being updated based on the research I perform, right now this is the best and updated information on my ancestry and I believe I am getting very close.

patrizio22
09-07-2016, 09:01 PM
Patrizio, if you want I'll help you out, did you test Y-12, Y-25, or Y-37 to see your closest Y matches? This will start to give you a stronger idea, and yes I am Azzurro from Eupedia, its funny how Angela already has her wild assumptions and blah blah, crazy talk, I put Principe here cause my nonna used to call me "Principe Azzurro" so ya theory debunked, nah I'm not making fun of you, you got a similar dna pattern to mine, so trying to help a brother out.

Ok.

No, I transfered my results onto ftdna and I can only see they have y37, y67 and y111 available but they are a bit expensive and I was waiting to have some extra money. Where did you see Y12 and Y25? Was it on ftdna?

The fact is that italians from Italy don't seem very interested in genealogy. Should I nevertheless test STR markers even if they are few and far between?

Principe
09-07-2016, 09:36 PM
Ok.

No, I transfered my results onto ftdna and I can only see they have y37, y67 and y111 available but they are a bit expensive and I was waiting to have some extra money. Where did you see Y12 and Y25? Was it on ftdna?

The fact is that italians from Italy don't seem very interested in genealogy. Should I nevertheless test STR markers even if they are few and far between?

Patrizio, you have to go on the DNA tests slab, then press on Y-Dna, they will offer many packages, or you go on All dna tests, I don't see the Y-12 and Y-25 packs anymore, possibly they took it out? Join the Italian project and contact the co-adminstrator he will help you out, hes very good and knows his stuff he is also J1.

Honestly from personal experience, Y-12 is not good enough because you will get a large variety of matches I have 483 matches, Im J2 and have J1 perfect matches on Y-12, Y-25 is a good start because it will close to your specific clade, I have 91 matches and all are under clade or the one above, the higher the markers the more accurate. At Y-67 I have 26 matches.

In terms of the Italians from Italy, not necessarily true those Italians on Eupedia are just racists actually just a couple of members based on experience, I have been in contact with an Italian from Italy whose listed as a 5th cousin and remote, we always exchange our genealogical information with different tests, he's distantly related on my mother's side, so it depends who you catch.

patrizio22
09-08-2016, 06:45 AM
Patrizio, you have to go on the DNA tests slab, then press on Y-Dna, they will offer many packages, or you go on All dna tests, I don't see the Y-12 and Y-25 packs anymore, possibly they took it out? Join the Italian project and contact the co-adminstrator he will help you out, hes very good and knows his stuff he is also J1.

Honestly from personal experience, Y-12 is not good enough because you will get a large variety of matches I have 483 matches, Im J2 and have J1 perfect matches on Y-12, Y-25 is a good start because it will close to your specific clade, I have 91 matches and all are under clade or the one above, the higher the markers the more accurate. At Y-67 I have 26 matches.

In terms of the Italians from Italy, not necessarily true those Italians on Eupedia are just racists actually just a couple of members based on experience, I have been in contact with an Italian from Italy whose listed as a 5th cousin and remote, we always exchange our genealogical information with different tests, he's distantly related on my mother's side, so it depends who you catch.

Well, when I had my Nat Geo results I created a thread also on Eupedia and I've been insulted twice by a Angela moderator. She maintained that I'm you and have multiple accounts, basically a liar. She was very, very unpleasant.

What happened between you is not of my concern.

So, let us forget Eupedia.

Principe
09-08-2016, 12:36 PM
Well, when I had my Nat Geo results I created a thread also on Eupedia and I've been insulted twice by a Angela moderator. She maintained that I'm you and have multiple accounts, basically a liar. She was very, very unpleasant.

What happened between you is not of my concern.

So, let us forget Eupedia.

I agree 100%, Angela is very arrogant and rude. That site is done for me.

patrizio22
09-10-2016, 09:15 AM
Please, forgive me if I ask something silly but I haven't found all the information I need.

If my patrilineal ancestor was an immigrant from say, the Balkans, during the 15th and 16th centuries there would be no trace in my autosomes, is that correct? How far back before it gets less than 1 percent, 8, 10 generations? I'm talking about ethnic percentages. (I have 68 south euro, 26 asia minor, 2 north africa and 2 arabia)

If my surname was not born in my family's village because of a big spelling mistake at the parish, I've just got conclusive data which points to Lombardy, where there was another older group with my same surname (1 or 2 per cent j1) and Croatia, where there are nearly identical surnames (1 or 2 per cent J1). Vast migration of farmers from those two areas since the 15th, they were given free land to repopulate the valley, and also an overwhelming prevalence of the first name Biagio among my ancestors in central Italy in the mid 18th, very popular among Croatian immigrants because San Biagio it's their patron saint, especially in Dubrovnik. (Dubrovnik and Ancona were two maritime repubblics in partnership)

There were also jewish immigrants at the same time but I lack the component. Again, if my patrilineal was a jewish immigrant from the 16th, would it show on my autosomes? (ethnic percentages)

We do agree that j-z1884 must be from the Levant, so I'm not in denial, but it must have arrived somewhere in Europe.

In the case of an immigration around the 16th, would Y 37 be conclusive?

Thanks in advance.

Larth
09-10-2016, 11:45 AM
In a genealogy forum they told me to concentrate on my region and leave alone those.

This is exactly my suggestion.



Please, forgive me if I ask something silly but I haven't found all the information I need.

If my patrilineal ancestor was an immigrant from say, the Balkans, during the 15th and 16th centuries there would be no trace in my autosomes, is that correct? How far back does it go, 8, 10 generations? I'm talking about ethnic percentages. (I have 68 south euro, 26 asia minor, 2 north africa and 2 arabia)

If my surname was not born in my family's village because of a spelling mistake, I've just got conclusive data which points to Lombardy, where there was another older group with my same surname (1 or 2 per cent j1) and Croatia, where there are nearly identical surnames (1 or 2 per cent J1). Vast migration of farmers from those two areas since the 15th, they were given free land to repopulate the valley, and also an overwhelming prevalence of the first name Biagio among my ancestors in central Italy in the mid 18th. Croatian immigrants often gave this name to their sons, given that San Biagio it's their patron saint, especially in Dubrovnik. (Dubrovnik and Ancona were two maritime repubblics in partnership)

There were also jewish immigrants at the same time but I lack the component. Again, if my patrilineal was a jewish immigrant from the 16th, would it show on my autosomes? (ethnic percentages)

In the Marche there were Dalmatian, Albanian, Slav, Lombard, Greek and Jewish immigrants and who knows. Also consider that in the past Lombardy was used to refer to a larger area than modern Lombardy. Only a genealogical research can help. Of course if all the documents are stored in the archives.


We do agree that j-z1884 must be from the Levant, so I'm not in denial, but it must have arrived somewhere in Europe.

In the case of an immigration around the 16th, would Y 37 be conclusive?

Thanks in advance.

In the Geno project with your exact Y-DNA there is also a German from Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate), a French from Colomby-sur-Thaon (Normandy) and Venetian from Padua.
I could be wrong but I don't think that a Y 37 can be conclusive because it wasn't necessarily a late or recent migration. Only the finding of a document in the archives could be conclusive.

patrizio22
09-10-2016, 12:45 PM
Ok, thanks. What about admixture? A single 16th century patrilineal immigrant (jewish, east europe, etc) wouldn't show on my regional ancestry, would he? So, I can't rule out a jewish or eastern european origin of my surname because I lack the component. Is that so?

If I didn't get it wrong, 10 generations back (300 years ago) I had 2050 ancestors, so each one gave me nearly nothing of their autosomes. Is that so?

krothschild
09-12-2016, 03:10 PM
Ok, thanks. What about admixture? A single 16th century patrilineal immigrant (jewish, east europe, etc) wouldn't show on my regional ancestry, would he? So, I can't rule out a jewish or eastern european origin of my surname because I lack the component. Is that so?

If I didn't get it wrong, 10 generations back (300 years ago) I had 2050 ancestors, so each one gave me nearly nothing of their autosomes. Is that so?

10 generations back you would have at most 1024 unique contributors to your DNA (2^10). You don't count their children as those are just combinations of the parents. Many people have common relatives within 10-generations, so ultimately this number is lower, especially for highly admixed populations (e.g. Ashkenazi Jews).

We have seen evidence of people as closely related as 2C1R with no shared autosomal DNA. 10-generations is too far back to have any realistic expectation that you will be able to trace autosomal descendancy... you should look to y-Chromosome (direct paternal line only) and mitochondrial (direct maternal line only) if you go back that far...

Take a look at the following for some good information on autosomal DNA in relatives:

http://isogg.org/w/images/b/bc/Shared_cM_Project_v2_updated.png

http://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA_statistics#mediaviewer/File:Shared_cM_Project_v2_updated.png

patrizio22
09-12-2016, 06:55 PM
10 generations back you would have at most 1024 unique contributors to your DNA (2^10). You don't count their children as those are just combinations of the parents. Many people have common relatives within 10-generations, so ultimately this number is lower, especially for highly admixed populations (e.g. Ashkenazi Jews).

We have seen evidence of people as closely related as 2C1R with no shared autosomal DNA. 10-generations is too far back to have any realistic expectation that you will be able to trace autosomal descendancy... you should look to y-Chromosome (direct paternal line only) and mitochondrial (direct maternal line only) if you go back that far...

Take a look at the following for some good information on autosomal DNA in relatives:

http://isogg.org/w/images/b/bc/Shared_cM_Project_v2_updated.png

http://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA_statistics#mediaviewer/File:Shared_cM_Project_v2_updated.png

Thanks a lot. I appreciated.

patrizio22
07-03-2017, 05:29 AM
Thanks a lot. I appreciated.

My y haplogroup has been reviewed by FTDNA, it was J-z1884 and it's now J-ZS1727, which is a subclade of YSC76, but I haven't found anything on this subclade, perhaps because it is better known by another name. It is not on Yfull and I don't even know the TMRCA.

I have recently discovered a clue as to the origins of my ancestors. I could go back to only two male individuals with my surname in my region, both born about 1730. Whereas the descendants of one of them were nicknamed "Pezzante" which meant "poor", the descentants of the other were nicknamed "Catalá".

"Catalá" is how someone from Cataluña, Spain, would call someone from his region. Now, an immigrant from Spain may evoke Gentile or Sephardic origins. Is this subclade compatible also with a Phoenician origin?

I'd like to know if some J1 expert could tell me something about this y haplogroup. I had a look at the YSC76 project on FTDNA and there's a bit of everything, Jewish, Armenian, Levantine, Turkish, Arabic, Iranian, European, etc, but I didn't find this particular subclade. Perhaps it's been discovered recently.

J1 DYS388=13
07-03-2017, 07:15 AM
You are in good company, as you share the same branch as FTDNA founder Bennett Greenspan. A J1 Project administrator has labelled your branch "Yehudim," a word I have never heard before. http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

patrizio22
07-03-2017, 07:47 AM
You are in good company, as you share the same branch as FTDNA founder Bennett Greenspan. A J1 Project administrator has labelled your branch "Yehudim," a word I have never heard before. http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

It sounds Jewish to me. If the nickname "Catalá" of the first ancestors found (born about 1730) is an indication of an Iberian origin, they may have been Conversos. I have nil percent Jewish Diaspora component, which I suppose mean I didn't have Jewish ancestors during the last 6 or 7 generations (is this correct?) so if they were initially Jewish they must have converted to Catholicism.

J1 DYS388=13
07-03-2017, 08:06 AM
Maybe "Jewish Diaspora component" means Ashkenazi, whereas maybe your ancestry is Sephardic from Iberia.

Sorry but my knowledge of Jewish DNA is too shallow. There are many experts, and self-appointed experts, on that subject.

You could look up the other cases on that branch on the BigY J1 tree, so see if that sheds any light for you. http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

patrizio22
07-03-2017, 05:29 PM
I got an answer from Bennett Greenspan, he says without further snp testing it's hard to say. 50% of j-zs1727 are Jewish, the other 50% must be Canaanites or Arabs.

Pegasusphm1
07-14-2017, 07:04 AM
You are in good company, as you share the same branch as FTDNA founder Bennett Greenspan. A J1 Project administrator has labelled your branch "Yehudim," a word I have never heard before. http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

Means "Jews"... Don't know how accurate that can be applied generally. Z640 are Samaritans (Israelites)... Not all YSC76 are Jewish.

Pegasusphm1
07-14-2017, 07:15 AM
There were some Braga in Ancona not far from my father village. It appears that some conversos took the surname Braga which was gentile in Portugal. Conversos also had to leave Iberia because they were persecuted. They could be the ones in Ancona. But I have no jewish component.

Braga is portuguese

Ancona had a large Jewish community at one point involved with money lending.

dnoone
07-27-2017, 02:12 PM
Sure these results are accurate? I see snps on ftdna that I have been tested negative for with other companies.

sam-iJ-ZS1727
08-19-2017, 11:31 PM
hi
i am Tunisian and i got J-ZS1727 result from familytreeDNA. Some of you said that J-ZS1727 is Jewish, i think it's true, when we think of judaism as a religion not an ethnic group. my family name belongs to an arabic tribe that came from an older tribe from Old Yemen. It was a Himyarite yemeni Tribe. When we speak about Himyar, we speak about a jewish Kingdom with kings that imposed Judaism to many yemeni tribes. After the Himyarite jewish kingdom collapsed, many yemeni jewish tribes immigrated outside yemen. many tribes became christian and then became muslim. in the arabic world, the only people i found with iJ-ZS1727 are yemeni.

francesco-s91
05-11-2018, 02:00 AM
hi
i am Tunisian and i got J-ZS1727 result from familytreeDNA. Some of you said that J-ZS1727 is Jewish, i think it's true, when we think of judaism as a religion not an ethnic group. my family name belongs to an arabic tribe that came from an older tribe from Old Yemen. It was a Himyarite yemeni Tribe. When we speak about Himyar, we speak about a jewish Kingdom with kings that imposed Judaism to many yemeni tribes. After the Himyarite jewish kingdom collapsed, many yemeni jewish tribes immigrated outside yemen. many tribes became christian and then became muslim. in the arabic world, the only people i found with iJ-ZS1727 are yemeni.

Im also ZS1727 from south italy in town called valva in provine if Salerno , regione campania, and no known jewish ancestors

francesco-s91
05-19-2018, 11:05 AM
Hi group today i recieved my results from ftdna V3snp pack, its J1-ZS241.
So we can say that the geno to ftdna transfer is fake

sam-iJ-ZS1727
05-19-2018, 05:20 PM
i just got mines from Yseq, i am under FGC1707
it confirms that ZS1727 result from Geno are fake.

Pegasusphm1
07-15-2018, 04:56 AM
You are in good company, as you share the same branch as FTDNA founder Bennett Greenspan. A J1 Project administrator has labelled your branch "Yehudim," a word I have never heard before. http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree Yehudim as in Dead Sea Scrolls (Qumran) and the Damascus Document codex?

Admin labeling YSC76 Tribe of Judah?

Pegasusphm1
07-15-2018, 05:10 AM
Any thoughts on the L829 expansion across the Mediterranean Sea?

Late Bronze Age, Sea Peoples, LBA collapse, later during the Phoenician period?


Any J1 subclades been identified from Ugarit and Hittite

patrizio22
08-20-2018, 09:58 AM
Hello, I have just received the results of the Y37 test at FTDNA. A little help would be welcome, it is a bit complicated and I'm probably less than intermediate on the matter.

Little CV: According to Geno my Y haplogroup is j-z1884, after the transfer to FTDNA it was first j-z1884 and then reviewed to J-ZS1727. I'm from the Marche region of eastern central Italy. In 1700 there were only 4 male individuals with my surname in my region, one of them is my ancestor, therefore the surname may have appeared about 1600. They may or may not have come from somewhere else. They were Christians, no record of Jewish ancestry. My surname was present from Galicia, Spain, to Russia, in most of the European countries. These are probably different lineages with different origins, none of them is marked as Jewish.

According to the Y37 test, I have no match for 37, no match for 25 and several matches for 12.

For the level Y12 they put a banner "Cohen match", it is, apparently, the Cohen Modal Haplotype. I've got about 50 exact matches (12 out of 12 markers). Some of my exact matches are J1, others are J2. None of the 50 exact matches has one of the several variants of the Cohen surname. (Katz, Rappaport, Agulay, Kogen, etc)

Among my 50 exact matches (12 out of 12), for those who are J1 like me, most sound like Arabs, only three sound like European Jews.

For the genetic distance -1 there are many Central and Eastern Europeans, many Ashkenazy Jews, just a few Cohen variants.

Is this Cohen match relevant to me with regard to the possible origin of my ancestors? What I mean is, is this haplotype found both among Arabs and Jews? Since my y haplogroup is J1 and more than half of my 50 exact matches for Y12 are J2 what does that say about the period in which lived the common paternal ancestor?

Does this haplotype give me a specific terminal SNP without me buying the SNP pack?

Thanks

Pegasusphm1
09-16-2018, 03:02 AM
One should remember first Middle-Eastern Christians composed both Roman era Jewish other Semitic peoples of the region. Significant enough to result in the expulsion of Jews from Rome, Codex DIDACHE, Council of Jamnia (Birkat haMINIM), and later 2nd Revolt is the final division between the two Jewish sects that remained post first revolt. Last of the Hebrew Christians had been absorbed during the crusades, while in the east they continued until the 16th century with the Malibar Nasrani.


Given the Middle East Christians are somewhat of a insulated community from their Muslim cousins. How does ME Christians compare to J1 Italians with matches?


Following the Bronze age/sea peoples/Phoenician periods, and prior to Islamic expansion, this isn't discussed.