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Paul_Johnsen
01-17-2016, 10:10 AM
I noticed that 4 out 50 mt-dna-samples from my native region of Rogaland in the Norway project are hg Z1a1a (There is an additional person from Rogaland in the Z-project). They all have the same haplotype :C16185T, T16187C, C16189T, T16224C, G16230A, C16260T, T16278C, T16298C, C16311T, C146T, C151T, C195T, A247G, A249d, T489C, 522.1A, 522.2C, 309.1C, 315.1C. So there must have been a recent founder-event. Bizarrely they share the haplotype with people in northern Finland. So I would assume that this is the haplotype from "A recent genetic link between Sami and the Volga-Ural region of Russia."?

evon
01-17-2016, 12:22 PM
I noticed that 4 out 50 mt-dna-samples from my native region of Rogaland in the Norway project are hg Z1a1a (There is an additional person from Rogaland in the Z-project). They all have the same haplotype :C16185T, T16187C, C16189T, T16224C, G16230A, C16260T, T16278C, T16298C, C16311T, C146T, C151T, C195T, A247G, A249d, T489C, 522.1A, 522.2C, 309.1C, 315.1C. So there must have been a recent founder-event. Bizarrely they share the haplotype with people in northern Finland. So I would assume that this is the haplotype from "A recent genetic link between Sami and the Volga-Ural region of Russia."?

I have a few 23andme Z1a matches with ancestry from Hordaland, so my best guess is that this is a Saami linage that has spread south from Trønderlag region perhaps?

Paul_Johnsen
01-17-2016, 01:03 PM
I have a few 23andme Z1a matches with ancestry from Hordaland, so my best guess is that this is a Saami linage that has spread south from Trønderlag region perhaps?

I wouldn't be surprised if the "ultimate" origin was saami (seems very very likely), but I don't see the trønder-connection. For me it seems like this particular linage, I actually think it expanded from the northern parts of Rogaland. It seems only likely than some would end up in Hordaland. The Norway project does not have any Z in Trøndelag (one in Møre and one in Nordland, one in vest agder, one in aust-agder(lacks 522.1A, 522.2C) and one in the east).

evon
01-17-2016, 01:12 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if the "ultimate" origin was saami (seems very very likely), but I don't see the trønder-connection. For me it seems like this particular linage, I actually think it expanded from the northern parts of Rogaland. It seems only likely than some would end up in Hordaland. The Norway project does not have any Z in Trøndelag (one in Møre and one in Nordland, one in vest agder, one in aust-agder(lacks 522.1A, 522.2C) and one in the east).

The reason I mention Trønderlag is because south Saami peoples have traditionally lived there and around the wider Røros region. I would think Z1a in Saami peoples stem from very few original Z1a lines, so they should all have the same mutations and match each other, which could explain the matches in Finland etc..

Paul_Johnsen
01-17-2016, 01:18 PM
I found 6 hg Z in my first 300 23andme matches.

Paul_Johnsen
01-17-2016, 01:23 PM
The reason I mention Trønderlag is because south Saami peoples have traditionally lived there and around the wider Røros region. I would think Z1a in Saami peoples stem from very few original Z1a lines, so they should all have the same mutations and match each other, which could explain the matches in Finland etc..

I think it is only one linage. Maybe the saami person intermarried in Norland had one daughter who married someone in Møre (most of the rest of the daughter-lines only had sons/died out), the person in Møre who married someone in Rogaland (most of the rest of the daughter-lines only had sons/died out). This person had tons of daughter-lines that did not "die-out". It is hard to tell, but you clearly don't need many saami (most saami aren't Z1a1 after all).

Shaikorth
01-17-2016, 05:04 PM
So I would assume that this is the haplotype from "A recent genetic link between Sami and the Volga-Ural region of Russia."?

It's not necessarily from the Volga-Ural but could come from a circumpolar route. Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov (3500ya) in Kola Peninsula had Z1a:

2x 16129A, 16185T, 16223T, 16224C, 16260T, 16298C
1x 16129A, 16155G, 16185T, 16223T, 16224C, 16260T, 16298C

Virginian Norseman
07-22-2016, 01:13 PM
Might be from Bjarmeland:

http://avaldsnes.info/en/informasjon/hjor/

Geirmund supposedly had mtDNA Z1A and his mother was from Bjarmeland (even though in small amounts Z1A is still found in Iceland today)

Strongly recommend the book "The Black Viking" by Bergsveinn Birgisson

http://icelandreview.com/stuff/views/2015/01/30/untold-saga-black-viking-esa

Captain Nordic
07-26-2016, 03:09 PM
The problem with claiming it's of Sami origin is that not even (Norwegian) Samis have such a high frequency of Z (8%):
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/fig_tab/5201712t1.html#figure-title
In fact, Norwegian Samis lack the mitochondrial Z haplotype.

Also, is there any evidence that Samis ever lived as far south as Rogaland?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Norway_Counties_Rogaland_Position.svg/2000px-Norway_Counties_Rogaland_Position.svg.png

Captain Nordic
07-26-2016, 03:18 PM
Might be from Bjarmeland:

http://avaldsnes.info/en/informasjon/hjor/

Geirmund supposedly had mtDNA Z1A and his mother was from Bjarmeland (even though in small amounts Z1A is still found in Iceland today)

Strongly recommend the book "The Black Viking" by Bergsveinn Birgisson

http://icelandreview.com/stuff/views/2015/01/30/untold-saga-black-viking-esa

I doubt it's of Samoyed origin simply because Samoyeds never lived in Bjarmaland.
Bjarmaland extended to the northern shores of the white sea and the Northern Dvina river. Samoyeds lived a bit further east.

It is likely that the native inhabitants of Bjarmaland were Komi or some other type of Finnic tribe.

Paul_Johnsen
08-01-2016, 05:06 PM
They never lived anywhere near Rogaland.

evon
08-01-2016, 05:33 PM
The problem with claiming it's of Sami origin is that not even (Norwegian) Samis have such a high frequency of Z (8%):
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/fig_tab/5201712t1.html#figure-title
In fact, Norwegian Samis lack the mitochondrial Z haplotype.

Also, is there any evidence that Samis ever lived as far south as Rogaland?


8% is higher than in the Norwegian population, so it is far more likely that it is Saami derived than anything else.. And south Saami peoples lived as far south as the Hardanger platou:
http://arkeologi.blogspot.com/2006/02/samer-sr-for-hardangervidda.html

http://hardangerviddanatursenter.no/cms/wp-content/gallery/kart/kart_hardangervidda.png

evon
08-01-2016, 05:42 PM
Although while I think all Z1a in Norway is of Saami derived ancestry, there are other Eurasian mtDNA linages within the Norwegian genepool that are not found within the Saami, such as mtDNA G2a, so I guess one should not rule out anything..

Captain Nordic
08-26-2016, 09:34 AM
8% is higher than in the Norwegian population, so it is far more likely that it is Saami derived than anything else.. And south Saami peoples lived as far south as the Hardanger platou:
http://arkeologi.blogspot.com/2006/02/samer-sr-for-hardangervidda.html

http://hardangerviddanatursenter.no/cms/wp-content/gallery/kart/kart_hardangervidda.png

So why do Norwegian Samis lack the Z haplogroup then? ;)

Captain Nordic
08-26-2016, 09:37 AM
Although while I think all Z1a in Norway is of Saami derived ancestry, there are other Eurasian mtDNA linages within the Norwegian genepool that are not found within the Saami, such as mtDNA G2a, so I guess one should not rule out anything..

All of the mtDna in Norwegians is Eurasian- west eurasian hehe ;)

Seriously though, i don't think we can blame all the east eurasian haplogroups in Scandos on Sami influence as sometimes even they lack them.

evon
08-26-2016, 10:52 AM
So why do Norwegian Samis lack the Z haplogroup then? ;)

Where did you read that?

http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/z_genbank_sequences.htm

http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2006/09/haplogroup-z-in-saami.html

mtDNA Z is found in the Saami genepool (Saami genepool meaning all Saami groups)...

evon
08-26-2016, 10:54 AM
All of the mtDna in Norwegians is Eurasian- west eurasian hehe ;)

Seriously though, i don't think we can blame all the east eurasian haplogroups in Scandos on Sami influence as sometimes even they lack them.

Saami do have some eastern DNA influence, as has been established by the presence of mtDNA groups such as Z, but also by autosomal DNA signatures that connect them with other Eurasian groups in modern day Russia. It is also pretty obvious in terms of phenotype that they have a eastern influence within their collective genepool...

However, regarding G2a and other Eurasian mtDNA groups, these are not connected with Saami, and have a different history, just like YDNA Q in Scandinavia have a different history and not associated with Saami..

Captain Nordic
08-26-2016, 11:11 AM
Where did you read that?

http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/z_genbank_sequences.htm

http://dienekes.blogspot.no/2006/09/haplogroup-z-in-saami.html

mtDNA Z is found in the Saami genepool (Saami genepool meaning all Saami groups)...

For some reason, Samis from Sweden, Norway and Finland are a bit different from each other.

Here's the evidence that Norwegian Samis lack haplogroup Z:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/fig_tab/5201712t1.html#figure-title

Captain Nordic
08-26-2016, 11:13 AM
Saami do have some eastern DNA influence, as has been established by the presence of mtDNA groups such as Z, but also by autosomal DNA signatures that connect them with other Eurasian groups in modern day Russia. It is also pretty obvious in terms of phenotype that they have a eastern influence within their collective genepool...

However, regarding G2a and other Eurasian mtDNA groups, these are not connected with Saami, and have a different history, just like YDNA Q in Scandinavia have a different history and not associated with Saami..

When did i deny an eastern influence in the Sami gene pool? :)
I was just saying that not all of the east eurasian haplogroups in Scandos must have come from Samis, that's all...

evon
08-26-2016, 11:33 AM
For some reason, Samis from Sweden, Norway and Finland are a bit different from each other.

Here's the evidence that Norwegian Samis lack haplogroup Z:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/fig_tab/5201712t1.html#figure-title

It is a shame that they did not label what kind of Saami they tested in Norway, I suspect they are northern Saami. However, you are aware that southern Saami in Sweden and Norway are the same ethnic group right? So Southern Swedish is the same as southern Norwegian.

Furthermore, those regional difference arent that important in this respect given that we know the Saami as a umbrella term share a common genepool that span the whole of the Nordic region and is found in all the Saami regional groups, such as Lule, southern Saami etc....

Here is a arty type Video about the south Saami:

https://vimeo.com/18559845

Captain Nordic
08-26-2016, 12:41 PM
It is a shame that they did not label what kind of Saami they tested in Norway, I suspect they are northern Saami. However, you are aware that southern Saami in Sweden and Norway are the same ethnic group right? So Southern Swedish is the same as southern Norwegian.

Furthermore, those regional difference arent that important in this respect given that we know the Saami as a umbrella term share a common genepool that span the whole of the Nordic region and is found in all the Saami regional groups, such as Lule, southern Saami etc....

Here is a arty type Video about the south Saami:

https://vimeo.com/18559845

Yes, i know they are the same ethnic group, but Z still only reaches a 4,3% frequency in Southern Swedish Samis yet it's 8% in Rogaland, at least according to OP.

The relatively high frequency of Z in Rogaland could be due to recent (or ancient :P ) founder effects but i guess that needs to be further investigated :)

evon
08-26-2016, 02:22 PM
Yes, i know they are the same ethnic group, but Z still only reaches a 4,3% frequency in Southern Swedish Samis yet it's 8% in Rogaland, at least according to OP.

The relatively high frequency of Z in Rogaland could be due to recent (or ancient :P ) founder effects but i guess that needs to be further investigated :)

I do not think mtDNA Z is found in 8% of the Rogaland genepool, and it is pretty obvious that the migration of Z1 came from Saami peoples to Rogaland (or perhaps Finnish people), rather than the other way around, due to a larger spread of Z1 among the various Saami groups and Finnish peoples then in Norway.

evon
09-02-2016, 01:54 PM
Just remembered this, they have found Z1a in Sweden that dates to the 1200's, so we know it has been in Scandinavia at least that long:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/royaldna.shtml

Kristiina
09-02-2016, 02:42 PM
Z1a is pretty old in the surroundings of Fennoscandia as it has been found in Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov in the Kola Peninsula, 3,500 uncal. yBP.

There is not any reason to presume that people who inhabited the Kola Peninsula c. 1500 BC were linguistically related to modern Saamis but we can very well presume that modern Z1a in Scandinavia is related to ancient Z1a in northern Fennoscandia.

Of course, Z1a in Norwegians or Swedes may have been mediated by Saamis but it is not a necessity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573127/

Helgenes50
09-02-2016, 03:08 PM
Just remembered this, they have found Z1a in Sweden that dates to the 1200's, so we know it has been in Scandinavia at least that long:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/royaldna.shtml

Sorry if I am off topic, but that's important

The result of Bourbon is wrong in this database.
All kings of France are supposed to be R1b-Z381, not G2a

https://expertadn.fr/bonne-ou-mauvaise-tete-dhenri-iv/ ( in French)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25236-Haplogroups-of-European-kings-and-queens

evon
09-02-2016, 03:18 PM
Sorry if I am off topic, but that's important

The result of Bourbon is wrong in this database.
All kings of France are supposed to be R1b-Z381, not G2a

https://expertadn.fr/bonne-ou-mauvaise-tete-dhenri-iv/ ( in French)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25236-Haplogroups-of-European-kings-and-queens

You should get in contact with Jean, she is a regular member of this forum, she operates that website..

Captain Nordic
09-02-2016, 06:09 PM
Z1a is pretty old in the surroundings of Fennoscandia as it has been found in Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov in the Kola Peninsula, 3,500 uncal. yBP.

There is not any reason to presume that people who inhabited the Kola Peninsula c. 1500 BC were linguistically related to modern Saamis but we can very well presume that modern Z1a in Scandinavia is related to ancient Z1a in northern Fennoscandia.

Of course, Z1a in Norwegians or Swedes may have been mediated by Saamis but it is not a necessity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573127/
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov belonged to a suprisingly widespread North siberian cultural zone called Ymyakhtakh.
The site has been studied by both physical anthropologists and geneticists and both have come to the conclusion that the people of this site were mainly of North asiatic stock and NOT of the local population.
More information about Bolshoy Oleni ostrov, Yukaghirs and Ymyakhtakh:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/38789-Death-of-a-Yukaghir


Oh i almost forgot, here's a table of the mitochondrial haplogroups for Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov (along with Uznyi Oleni Ostrov and Popovo):
http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/YuzhnyiOleniiOstrov-Table.jpg

Captain Nordic
09-02-2016, 06:17 PM
I do not think mtDNA Z is found in 8% of the Rogaland genepool, and it is pretty obvious that the migration of Z1 came from Saami peoples to Rogaland (or perhaps Finnish people), rather than the other way around, due to a larger spread of Z1 among the various Saami groups and Finnish peoples then in Norway.

I was talking about the OP's sample of 4/50, which is around 8%. I don't know if that's the actual number for Rogaland in general.

Kristiina and i have already posted evidence that mtDNA Z clearly has ancient origins in Fennoscandia (Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov settlement) and that the ancient peoples of that site mainly trace their genes and looks to north asiatic immigrants from Siberia and not Finno-ugric speakers.

evon
09-02-2016, 06:32 PM
I was talking about the OP's sample of 4/50, which is around 8%. I don't know if that's the actual number for Rogaland in general.

Kristiina and i have already posted evidence that mtDNA Z clearly has ancient origins in Fennoscandia (Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov settlement) and that the ancient peoples of that site mainly trace their genes and looks to north asiatic immigrants from Siberia and not Finno-ugric speakers.

Yeah I agree with that, it is after all north Eurasia that Z1a came from...and Saami and Finnish people have some DNA from north Eurasia...

Shaikorth
09-02-2016, 07:21 PM
Yeah I agree with that, it is after all north Eurasia that Z1a came from...and Saami and Finnish people have some DNA from north Eurasia...

The Bolshoy people or something like that could be the source for it, if that was the case one would expect some Uralic speakers of Russia like Mordovians who never had contact with them to have a different source. That could be detected with Chromopainter, and Busby et al 2015. indeed points towards such a difference.

http://oi63.tinypic.com/2n9i8ef.jpg

Populations in the world clusters:


http://oi67.tinypic.com/28bvdk8.jpg

Kristiina
09-02-2016, 07:32 PM
If we want to throw Yukaghirs into this discussion, I remind you that Yukaghir yDNA is the following:
C-M48 1/13, C-M86 2/13, C-M217 1/13, F-M89 1/13, N1c 4/13, Q-P36 4/13

It is true that Yukaghir mtDNA is quite close to the Siberian side of the Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov but Yukaghirs strangely lack a common D line:
Yukagirs: C4 c. 50%, C5 10%, Z1a 5% (these are the haplogroups that are shared by all three Yukaghir groups)
Bolshoy: C 6/23, C5 2/23, Z1a 3/23, D 3/23

I became aware of a paper about ancient Baikal DNA only yesterday. In this recent analysis of yDNA and mtDNA (https://era.library.ualberta.ca/files/wm117r51m#.V8hyuqIYN3h), Early Bronze Age Kurma Culture was the only culture that contained mtDNA Z:
mtDNA D 6/14, Z 2/14, A 1/14, F 5/14
yDNA 2xQ1a3, 2xQ

In Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov there was not any A or F but instead a lot of C and U, so it is not a perfect match. In the mesolithic West Siberia there was quite a lot of mtDNA Z (Baraba Steppe paper), but we do not have an analysis of their yDNA, but it may be (partly) the same as Kola Peninsula yDNA.

Megalophias
09-02-2016, 08:36 PM
If we want to throw Yukaghirs into this discussion, I remind you that Yukaghir yDNA is the following:
C-M48 1/13, C-M86 2/13, C-M217 1/13, F-M89 1/13, N1c 4/13, Q-P36 4/13
Off topic but I don't know if you saw Kristiina that in the new paper Yukaghir N1c is now identified as N1c1a1a1-M2110*, so in a branch parallel to pan-Eurasian L1026 and M2118 (if not some upstream form of one or the other), but downstream of Mari/Udmurt Y9022/B211 underneath L708. M2110* is also found at lower frequency in Evens, Evenks, and Chukchis (which I guess they got from Yukaghirs most likely), also rarely in Khakassians, Siberian Tatars, Khanty/Mansi, Ukrainians (maybe different branches).

Kristiina
09-02-2016, 10:31 PM
Megalophias, do you mean that the Yukaghir line is what was defined N3a5 in the recent N paper and which is found in Eskimos, Chukchis and Koryaks?

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/supplemental/S0002-9297(16)30160-4

11336

According to that paper, the arctic line B202 is a sister branch of a clearly Turkic/Buryat F4205 and the arctic branch is younger than the South Siberian branch which means that it probably spread from South Siberia to the northeast. Therefore, I doubt that we can construct a proto-Uralic and proto-Yukaghiric contact via N3a5.

If Yukaghiric N1c is N3a5, there are even six different language families involved: Turkic languages, Mongolic languages, Tungusic languages, Yukaghiric languages, Chukotko-Kamchatkan languages, Eskimo-Aleut languages, and they are not even closely related, except maybe for Mongolic and Tungusic languages. The age frame 2000-1000 BC is far too late for N3a5 to have spoken a protolanguage of all these languages.

Captain Nordic
09-03-2016, 10:13 AM
Yeah I agree with that, it is after all north Eurasia that Z1a came from...and Saami and Finnish people have some DNA from north Eurasia...

And so do all Northern europeans...ANE, remember? ;)

evon
09-03-2016, 11:37 AM
And so do all Northern europeans...ANE, remember? ;)

Z1a is not ANE related, it came to the Nordic region long after ANE had mixed with the European genepool.

Bonacci
09-03-2016, 11:48 AM
Clearly it came with Saamis or other West Siberian, Uralic waves. No ethnic Norwegian have mtdna Z, except if they had an ancestor of Saami on their mothernal side.

"Its greatest clade diversity is found in Korea, northern China, and Central Asia. However, its greatest frequency appears in some peoples of Russia and among the Saami people of northern Scandinavia."

Mtdna: Z

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Eurasian_frequency_distribution_of_mtDNA_haplogrou p_Z.png

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-mtDNA-map.png

Kristiina
09-03-2016, 12:11 PM
After an analysis of this new N paper, I wonder if the Yukaghiric N1c is N3a3’6. It has a different distribution from N3a5. According to the STR network, the root type is found in Northeastern Europe from which western Siberian clusters develop. This haplotype is not found in Saamis or Finns but instead is quite frequent in Latvians and also present Lithuanians, as well as in Tatars, Karakalpaks, Russians and Komi Permyaks. This line has higher frequencies in some Siberian populations: Khanty and Mansi 12%, Dolgans 12,5%, Asian Eskimos 25%. Linguistically, it is again a big mess, and the line cannot be a link between Saamis/Finns and Yukaghirs.

Kristiina
09-03-2016, 01:06 PM
To sum up, I agree that it is not impossible that the ancient Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov people spoke a Yukaghir type of language. There is indeed an arctic Z1a path uniting Kuola Peninsula, Western Siberia, Taimyr and the current location of Yukaghiric languages in the east. Hope we get ancient yDNA from Bolshoy or from somewhere in arctic Siberia. In any case, in their current location, Yukaghiric languages are clearly different from the surrounding languages such as Chukotko-Kamchatkan and Eskimo-Aleut languages; and it is true that we should not think that modern languages should have developed there where they are currently spoken.

Jean M
09-03-2016, 04:05 PM
The result of Bourbon is wrong in this database. All kings of France are supposed to be R1b-Z381, not G2a

There are three results in my table for Bourbon:

Bourbon Henry IV (from head thought to be his): G2a?: Partial Y-STR profile matching that thought to be Louis XVI below, but latter now discredited
Bourbon Henry IV (from three known male-line descendants) R1b1b2a1a1b U106, Z381
Bourbon Louis XVI (from blood presumed to be his, but does not match that of Bourboun descendants, and genome does not match the appearance of Louis XVI) G2a


Perhaps I should put the text highlighted here in larger letters or make it more prominent in some way.

Kristiina
09-03-2016, 04:35 PM
It is interesting that the Sakha paper (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3695835/) suggests and confirms the Taimyr origin of Yukaghirs:

MtDNA haplogroups Z1a and C4b could represent traces of more ancient migrations in northern Siberia, as these haplogroups have been dated as older and, furthermore, their known sub-clades are found almost exclusively in Arctic populations. Z1a stretches all over Siberia, but three distinct sub-clades (Z1a1b, Z1a2a and Z1a3) are represented mainly in the northern regions. Interestingly, all three clades encompass the Yukaghirs – nowadays a very small population residing in northeastern Sakha and Chukotka. Z1a1b includes Nganasans from the Taymyr Peninsula and Evens from Sakha besides the Yukaghirs. Analyses of autosomal data confirm the genetic relatedness of Nganasans, Yukaghirs and Evens. These results support the scenario that the ancestors of Yukaghirs originate in the Taymyr Peninsula in Neolithic times. In the middle of the second millennium BC, the Yukaghir ancestors spread from the Taymyr Peninsula to the east, under pressure from immigrating groups. In the first half of the second millennium AD, the expansion of Evenks cut the Yukaghirs off from Samoyedic-speaking groups and forced them further east, where they ended up being surrounded by the Chukchis, Koryaks, Evens and the ancestors of Yakuts. Remarkable gene flow between the Yukaghirs and Evens is revealed by mtDNA analysis – in our sample, 71% of maternal lineages are shared between the Yukaghirs and Evens. In addition, the Yukaghirs have acquired a few maternal lineages (Z1a2a, G1b, C5a2a) from the Koryaks.

Captain Nordic
09-03-2016, 09:14 PM
Z1a is not ANE related, it came to the Nordic region long after ANE had mixed with the European genepool.

Yeah, i know. What i meant is that all Europeans (specifically Northern europeans) have North eurasian ancestry.

Captain Nordic
09-03-2016, 09:28 PM
Clearly it came with Saamis or other West Siberian, Uralic waves. No ethnic Norwegian have mtdna Z, except if they had an ancestor of Saami on their mothernal side.

"Its greatest clade diversity is found in Korea, northern China, and Central Asia. However, its greatest frequency appears in some peoples of Russia and among the Saami people of northern Scandinavia."

Mtdna: Z

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Eurasian_frequency_distribution_of_mtDNA_haplogrou p_Z.png

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-mtDNA-map.png

Plenty of evidence has already been provided in this thread showing that Z1a in Fennoscandia clearly predates the arrival of Uralic speakers in the region.
Furthermore, early Uralic speakers were not "West siberians" and neither were Saamis...

Sami mtDNA is obviously West eurasian. It only contains small traces of East eurasian like haplogroups.

Captain Nordic
09-03-2016, 11:03 PM
To sum up, I agree that it is not impossible that the ancient Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov people spoke a Yukaghir type of language. There is indeed an arctic Z1a path uniting Kuola Peninsula, Western Siberia, Taimyr and the current location of Yukaghiric languages in the east. Hope we get ancient yDNA from Bolshoy or from somewhere in arctic Siberia. In any case, in their current location, Yukaghiric languages are clearly different from the surrounding languages such as Chukotko-Kamchatkan and Eskimo-Aleut languages; and it is true that we should not think that modern languages should have developed there where they are currently spoken.

It might also explain the Uralic loanwords in Yukaghiric which seem to have happened from Para-Uralic into Proto-Yukaghiric, not Proto-uralic.
Location and date of this newly found Ymyakhtakh cemetary (Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov) seem to fit for this contact.

Bonacci
09-04-2016, 01:20 AM
Plenty of evidence has already been provided in this thread showing that Z1a in Fennoscandia clearly predates the arrival of Uralic speakers in the region.
Furthermore, early Uralic speakers were not "West siberians" and neither were Saamis...

Sami mtDNA is obviously West eurasian. It only contains small traces of East eurasian like haplogroups.

Even Norwegians have small traces of East Eurasian ancestry, call it Siberian or East Eurasian specific alleles that has spreaded all over North-East Europe in line with Uralic speaker migrations toward Europe.

Megalophias
09-04-2016, 01:40 AM
In the terminology of the new paper Yukghir N1c1 is N3a2'6*-M2110, not N3a3'6* or N3a5.

Kristiina
09-04-2016, 06:05 AM
Megalophias, thank you! That makes sense! However, the paper does not tell that!

11360

N3a2’6 is a branch that looks like it leads to ‘Yakut’ N3a2 branch. This branch is also older than N3a3’6 branches, so it could easily have spread in the Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age time frame. As the root type (blue circle) is in the Northeastern Europe, the line probably spread to Yukaghirs from there. This also fits with the model in which Yukaghiric languages were spoken in Central Siberia.

Helgenes50
09-04-2016, 06:43 AM
There are three results in my table for Bourbon:

Bourbon Henry IV (from head thought to be his): G2a?: Partial Y-STR profile matching that thought to be Louis XVI below, but latter now discredited
Bourbon Henry IV (from three known male-line descendants) R1b1b2a1a1b U106, Z381
Bourbon Louis XVI (from blood presumed to be his, but does not match that of Bourboun descendants, and genome does not match the appearance of Louis XVI) G2a


Perhaps I should put the text highlighted here in larger letters or make it more prominent in some way.

Jean,
Excuse me but I have only seen the first Bourbon , so that I did not go see below. Since we know that the result of the head of Henri IV's wrong, it would be better to remove and ignore this result

Shaikorth
09-04-2016, 07:25 AM
It might also explain the Uralic loanwords in Yukaghiric which seem to have happened from Para-Uralic into Proto-Yukaghiric, not Proto-uralic.
Location and date of this newly found Ymyakhtakh cemetary (Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov) seem to fit for this contact.

Could be even proto-samoyedic, in any case that contact was likely in the Sayan. https://www.academia.edu/6938965/The_Uralic-Yukaghir_lexical_correspondences_genetic_inheritan ce_language_contact_or_chance_resemblance

Personally I don't think the Ymyakhtakh, or whatever the Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov people who brought Z1a, D and so on to Scandinavia were, spoke Yukaghiric but some unknown language family which now remains only as a substrate in Saamic. The reason is simple enough, Yukaghir has left no such substrate and there are no placenames either.

Kristiina
09-04-2016, 08:19 AM
It is a good article, but does he mention Sayan? Why couldn't we move this Samoyedic-Yukaghiric contact area westward to Central or West Siberia?

We already have quite a lot of ancient yDNA from Altai and Baikal region (Allentoft et al, and http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(14)00116-1/abstract) and there is not a single N1c detected to date except for in a late Xiongnu context (Egyin Gol, 2xN1c). Please correct me if I am wrong!

There seems to be one N-P43 from Pazyryk Al Akha Iron Age burial; and we know that P43 is the most typical yDNA of Samoyeds. However, I would bet that that man spoke Turkic as well as those Xiongnu period men.

Recently, we got eneolithic yDNA from the Baikal area spanning from the Kitoi Culture 6100-4900 BC to EBA, and no N1c was reported. I am really waiting for yDNA from Volga forest area and Baraba Steppe to solve this issue.

Shaikorth
09-04-2016, 08:26 AM
It is a good article, but does he mention Sayan? Why couldn't we move this Samoyedic-Yukaghiric contact area westward to Central or West Siberia?

We already have quite a lot of ancient yDNA from Altai and Baikal region (Allentoft et al, and http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(14)00116-1/abstract) and there is not a single N1c detected to date except for in a late Xiongnu context (Egyin Gol, 2xN1c). Please correct me if I am wrong!

There seems to be one N-P43 from Pazyryk Al Akha Iron Age burial; and we know that P43 is the most typical yDNA of Samoyeds. However, I would bet that that man spoke Turkic as well as those Xiongnu period men.

Recently, we got eneolithic yDNA from the Baikal area spanning from the Kitoi Culture 6100-4900 BC to EBA, and no N1c was reported. I am really waiting for yDNA from Volga forest area and Baraba Steppe to solve this issue.

Sayan isn't in East Siberia and IIRC was as far as proto-Samoyedic got. Proto-Samoyedics didn't necessarily spread N1c anyway (at least based on modern frequencies) so the lack of it in aDNA doesn't really matter.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-04-2016, 08:37 AM
It makes me wonder if the lack of haplogroup - language correlation for haplogroups N is an "odd exception", or a valuable lesson against the possibly simplistic conclusions for other language families ....
If the former, what is so different for Uralic- it too is now believed to have expanded in the BA .

Jean M
09-04-2016, 10:18 AM
Since we know that the result of the head of Henri IV's wrong, it would be better to remove and ignore this result

That would simply lead to people wondering why I have not included these results. I have had this issue before with other dodgy results! I will see what I can do.

[Edited to add - I have re-arranged and bolded text, etc. Should be clearer]

By the way - if you see a problem on my website, it is best to point this out direct to me by personal message, or on the thread about my online tables. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7167-Ancient-DNA-table-on-ancestraljourneys-org

If you just drop a comment in a thread about something else, it is off topic, as you know, and I may not see it.

Kristiina
09-04-2016, 10:26 AM
Sayan isn't in East Siberia and IIRC was as far as proto-Samoyedic got. Proto-Samoyedics didn't necessarily spread N1c anyway (at least based on modern frequencies) so the lack of it in aDNA doesn't really matter.

Yes, but Yukaghirs carry N3a2’6 which they do not share with Samoyeds but which they seem to share with Evens, Evenks and Chukchis and northeastern Europeans (Russians?, Uralics?). So, this inclusion of N3a2'6 into Yukaghirs could have happened earlier before the proto-Samoyedic level and geographically closer to the Ural forest area.

According to this new paper, Kurma should belong to the Serovo-Isakovo-Glazkovo culture, 5800-4000 cal BP, and I found this interesting connection between Serovo-Isakovo-Glazkovo and Ymiyakhtakh:
“The Ymiyakhtakh Culture of Taymyr
Waffle pottery settlements were first discovered in Yakutia by A. P. Okladnikov, who associated them with the Late Neolithic or the Early Bronze Age and to the Glazkovo culture material from the Lake Baikal region dating to the second millennium B.C.”

In any case, Baikal drains into the Angara tributary of the Yenisei and leads directly to the Taimyr peninsula.

According to Parpola, Cherkaskul culture (c. 1850–1500 BCE) is proto-Samoyedic, and Cherkaskul is not in Altai-Sayan but to the north of Kazakhstan. Obviously, Cherkaskul yDNA is not available.

Janhunen placed the proto-Samoyedic homeland in the Minusinsk Basin and posited that Tagar culture was proto-Samoyedic. Ancient yDNA has not supported this view.

If we presume that Serovo-Isakovo-Glazkovo culture was Yukaghiric and spread to Taimyr, there is a possible proto-Samoyedic - Yukaghir contact area between the Ob and Yenisei rivers to the west of Baikal.

In this paper Kurma yDNA was Q, i.e. 2xQ1a3 and 2xQ.

11364

Shaikorth
09-04-2016, 10:46 AM
Yes, but Yukaghirs carry N3a2’6 which they do not share with Samoyeds but which they seem to share with Evens, Evenks, and Chukchis. So, this inclusion of N3a2'6 into Yukaghirs could have happened earlier before the proto-Samoyedic level and geographically closer to the Ural forest area.

According to this new paper, Kurma should belong to Serovo-Isakovo-Glazkovo culture, 5800-4000 cal BP, and I found this interesting connection between Serovo-Isakovo-Glazkovo and Ymiyakhtakh:
“The Ymiyakhtakh Culture of Taymyr
Waffle pottery settlements were first discovered in Yakutia by A. P. Okladnikov, who associated them with the Late Neolithic or the Early Bronze Age and to the Glazkovo culture material from the Lake Baikal region dating to the second millennium B.C.”

In any case, Baikal drains into the Angara tributary of the Yenisei and leads directly to the Taimyr peninsula.

According to Parpola, Cherkaskul culture (c. 1850–1500 BCE) is proto-Samoyedic, and Cherkaskul is not in Altai-Sayan but to the north of Kazakhstan. Obviously, Cherkaskul yDNA is not available.

Janhunen placed the proto-Samoyedic homeland in the Minusinsk Basin and posited that Tagar culture was proto-Samoyedic. Ancient yDNA has not suppoorted this view.

If we presume that Serovo-Isakovo-Glazkovo culture was Yukaghiric and spread to Taimyr, there is a possible proto-Samoyedic - Yukaghir contact area between the Ob and Yenisei rivers to the west of Baikal.

In this paper Kurma yDNA was Q, i.e. 2xQ1a3 and 2xQ.

11364

Well, Sayan mountains are west of Baikal and Angara so why wouldn't that fit? And is this N3a2'6 even found in Europe? N3a3'6 clades are common in Eastern Europe and Chukotko-Kamchatkans/Eskimos who don't have Uralic loanword connections like Yukaghir so Y-DNA phylogeny doesn't need to correlate with language contact.

Kristiina
09-04-2016, 10:52 AM
Didn't you check that network of N3a2'6 haplotypes? In that network, the root type is blue (Northeastern Europe) and Northeastern Europe is well represented with 3 European circles versus two northeast Siberian circles.

Shaikorth
09-04-2016, 10:57 AM
Didn't you check that network of N3a2'6 haplotypes? In that network, the root type is blue (Northeastern Europe) and Northeastern Europe is well represented with 3 European circles versus two northeast Siberian circles.

Is there a SNP list somewhere?

Kristiina
09-04-2016, 11:16 AM
Well, Sayan mountains are west of Baikal and Angara so why wouldn't that fit?

Because we already have ancient yDNA from Sayan, and there is no N1c or N-P43 apart from the samples I already cited that seem to be Turkic (and Egyin Gol is not in Altai Sayan). Mongolian Altai was only Q, R1a1 and one C (dated between 2742 BC and 914 BC). Karasuk and Iron Age Altai was again Q and R1a, and J, and one N-P189.2 according to Genetiker.

11365

11366

11367

Captain Nordic
09-04-2016, 02:22 PM
Even Norwegians have small traces of East Eurasian ancestry, call it Siberian or East Eurasian specific alleles that has spreaded all over North-East Europe in line with Uralic speaker migrations toward Europe.

Uralic speakers clearly originated in eastern europe which has been proven by both linguistics and genetics.
Stop believing in nonsense pseudo science theories from the 19th century :)

Kristiina
09-04-2016, 02:47 PM
Is there a SNP list somewhere?

Do not know, but I found at least this on p. 187

11368

Captain Nordic
09-04-2016, 02:52 PM
Could be even proto-samoyedic, in any case that contact was likely in the Sayan. https://www.academia.edu/6938965/The_Uralic-Yukaghir_lexical_correspondences_genetic_inheritan ce_language_contact_or_chance_resemblance

Personally I don't think the Ymyakhtakh, or whatever the Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov people who brought Z1a, D and so on to Scandinavia were, spoke Yukaghiric but some unknown language family which now remains only as a substrate in Saamic. The reason is simple enough, Yukaghir has left no such substrate and there are no placenames either.

The Uralic loanwords in Yukaghiric languages are very ancient and are usually dated to have happened from Para-Uralic(or Pre-proto-Uralic) which was before
East Uralic (Ancestor of Ugric and Samoyedic languages) had expanded eastwards into Siberia.

Experts tend to associate Ymyakhtakh with Yukaghirs. Besides, BOO has a lot of archaeological similarities with modern day Yukaghir culture.
Uralic and Yukaghiric contacts were mainly one way meaning loanwords from Uralic into Yukaghiric. This is a logical outcome if Yukaghiric speakers were living on the marginal extreme of the Uralic sphere. Arctic Kola peninsula fits this requirement.
The lack of placenames might be explained by the fact that the BOO site was only used for a couple of centuries in the region.

Bonacci
09-04-2016, 03:07 PM
Uralic speakers clearly originated in eastern europe which has been proven by both linguistics and genetics.
Stop believing in nonsense pseudo science theories from the 19th century :)

This statement made by Dr. who? I got the feeling someone feels a bit touchy by the connection of North Eurasian people which includes Western Siberians, Finns, Saamis, Samoyedics, and Eastern Siberian people. For some reason all these people share the same Y dna N of different subclades, speak similar languages and has North/East Eurasian genetic affinity. I can understand that the more Eastern markers has been diluted in the modern West Siberian populations which includes Saamis, Finns, but cultural, linguistically and in some way genetically vise these people all share something in common.

Now you tell me A Finn has nothing in common with a Yakut living in Eastern Siberia, but only Finns in Europe has 5-10% East Eurasian/Siberian ancestry, why not the British have those exotic dna alleles if that would be just a mistake that these Uralic/Finnic/Eastern Siberian speakers all share in some ways a common origin.

I can understand that many European nationalistic person feel this subject intimidating and they would rather alienate themselves from their own culture, people just to appear more "European" which is a nonsense, and likely you will grow this out, but this doesn't change the reality. Read your own history books, rather invent things which doesn't exist.

Hungarians for instance are a clear example of language shifters as they have no real East Eurasian affinity, but their core people has originated from Central Asia/Western Siberia and their modern descendants has less than 3% East Asian ancestry, except some sub minorities which still carries Asian cultural elements which exists among Saamis, Finns today.

Shaikorth
09-04-2016, 03:10 PM
The Uralic loanwords in Yukaghiric languages are very ancient and are usually dated to have happened from Para-Uralic(or Pre-proto-Uralic) which was before
East Uralic (Ancestor of Ugric and Samoyedic languages) had expanded eastwards into Siberia.

Experts tend to associate Ymyakhtakh with Yukaghirs. Besides, BOO has a lot of archaeological similarities with modern day Yukaghir culture.
Uralic and Yukaghiric contacts were mainly one way meaning loanwords from Uralic into Yukaghiric. This is a logical outcome if Yukaghiric speakers were living on the marginal extreme of the Uralic sphere. Arctic Kola peninsula fits this requirement.
The lack of placenames might be explained by the fact that the BOO site was only used for a couple of centuries in the region.

Ymyakhtakh is generally associated with prehistoric cultures of Taymyr, but that doesn't mean its western end in Kola and North Scandinavia was the source of Yukaghiric. Read that paper I linked earlier in this thread, it makes a pretty convincing argument that the loanwords could be proto-Samoyedic (and thus postdate the Uralic expansion out of Volga region 4k years ago). There is no consensus - or even majority opinion - that it has to be Para-Uralic or Pre-Proto-Uralic, and all linguists put the contact in Southern Siberia - what is argued is the timeframe and the stage of the languages. The earliest known Uralics in Kola Peninsula were Saami who got there during the Iron Age, and the Yukaghir loans certainly aren't Saamic or West Uralic more broadly.

Yukaghirs may have been pushed out of Taymyr but Kola Peninsula as the home of Proto-Yukaghiric which got Uralic loans there and then fled to Taymyr and further doesn't sound very parsimonious.

Kristiina
09-04-2016, 03:10 PM
Shaikort, yes, there is Table S7. Y-STR haplotypes of N3 and N2a1 clade individuals included in networks

(http://www.cell.com/ajhg/supplemental/S0002-9297(16)30160-4)

There is also a nice list of populations who have N3a2'6 (just as Megalophias explained):
Russian from Belgorod
Ukrainian
Khanty and Mansi
Siberian Tatar
Khakass
Evenk
2 Evens
3 Yukaghirs
3 Chukchi

(Table S2. Regional geographic distribution by population of hg N2a1 and N3 subclades genotyped in this study.)

The interesting thing is that the only Uralic speaking population is Khanty/Mansi who have inhabited Western Siberia and River Ob. Therefore, I do not know if this Uralo-Yukaghiric relationship can have any yDNA basis at least on the basis of the modern yDNA distribution unless we build a much more complex picture than usually suggested.

Bonacci
09-04-2016, 03:12 PM
Ymyakhtakh is generally associated with prehistoric cultures of Taymyr, but that doesn't mean its western end in Kola and North Scandinavia was the source of Yukaghiric. Read that paper I linked earlier in this thread, it makes a pretty convincing argument that the loanwords could be proto-Samoyedic (and thus postdate the Uralic expansion out of Volga region 4k years ago). There is no consensus - or even majority opinion - that it has to be Para-Uralic or Pre-Proto-Uralic, and all linguists put the contact in Southern Siberia - what is argued is the timeframe and the stage of the languages. The earliest known Uralics in Kola Peninsula were Saami who got there during the Iron Age, and the Yukaghir loans certainly aren't Saamic or West Uralic more broadly.

Yukaghirs may have been pushed out of Taymyr but Kola Peninsula as the home of Proto-Yukaghiric which got Uralic loans there and then fled to Taymyr and further doesn't sound very parsimonious.

+1

People see what they want to see.

Kristiina
09-04-2016, 03:18 PM
There is no consensus - or even majority opinion - that it has to be Para-Uralic or Pre-Proto-Uralic, and all linguists put the contact in Southern Siberia - what is argued is the timeframe and the stage of the languages.

... and we have to stick to this Southern Siberia even if we do not find any N there outside of a probable Turkic context? Or, do you mean that there were yDNA R1a1 carrying Uralic speakers that meadiated Uralic loanwords to yDNA Q carrying Yukaghirs?

Captain Nordic
09-04-2016, 03:21 PM
It is a good article, but does he mention Sayan? Why couldn't we move this Samoyedic-Yukaghiric contact area westward to Central or West Siberia?

We already have quite a lot of ancient yDNA from Altai and Baikal region (Allentoft et al, and http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(14)00116-1/abstract) and there is not a single N1c detected to date except for in a late Xiongnu context (Egyin Gol, 2xN1c). Please correct me if I am wrong!

There seems to be one N-P43 from Pazyryk Al Akha Iron Age burial; and we know that P43 is the most typical yDNA of Samoyeds. However, I would bet that that man spoke Turkic as well as those Xiongnu period men.

Recently, we got eneolithic yDNA from the Baikal area spanning from the Kitoi Culture 6100-4900 BC to EBA, and no N1c was reported. I am really waiting for yDNA from Volga forest area and Baraba Steppe to solve this issue.

I think we should call it East uralic-Yukaghiric language contacts, not Samoyed-Yukaghiric (East Uralic is the ancestor language branch for both Ugric and Samoyedic).
The initial contacts between East Uralic and Yukaghiric most likely took place when Garbino Bor culture influenced the arctic cultures of the northern Urals:

Recent data indicates - within certain limits of reliability - the emergence of elements of a maritime subsistence system in the second half of the second millennium BC. Specifically referred to in this connection are the Maliy Bolvanskiy sites I and II in the northeastern part of Vaygach Island; the topographic locations of 25 these sites can only be explained by tbe utilization of maritime resources (Pitul'ko 1988). Maliy Bolvanskiy I and II are linked to the Ortino culture of the circumpolar Trans-Ural area, which in its final stage was influenced by the Garin-Bor culture (Khlobystin 1973). There is also evidence of earlier settlement on the island, but its connections with maritime hunting are still problematic.

Fennoscandia archoeologica VIII (I991)
V. Pitul'ko

ARCHAEOLOGICAL DATA ON THE MARITIME CULTURES OF THE WEST ARCTIC
http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA8_23.pdf

Shaikorth
09-04-2016, 03:25 PM
+1

People see what they want to see.

The fact remains that we need Bronze Age DNA from Volga-Oka and Volga-Kama region to see what the proto-Uralics were genetically like. Modern DNA allows for several scenarios, GLOBETROTTER and Chromopainter for instance reveal that siberian in Mordovia and Finland isn't the same which could be for a number of reasons.

Kristiina
09-04-2016, 03:26 PM
Yukaghirs may have been pushed out of Taymyr but Kola Peninsula as the home of Proto-Yukaghiric which got Uralic loans there and then fled to Taymyr and further doesn't sound very parsimonious.

I do not know if anybody here has suggested that Kola Peninsula is the home of Proto-Yukaghiric, at least I did not suggest it. Instead, I suggested that proto-Yukaghiric was spoken in Central Siberia and maybe in Baikal area. However, I did not exclude the possibility that a Yukaghir-related language spread from Central Siberia to Kola Peninsula.

Captain Nordic
09-04-2016, 03:46 PM
This statement made by Dr. who? I got the feeling someone feels a bit touchy by the connection of North Eurasian people which includes Western Siberians, Finns, Saamis, Samoyedics, and Eastern Siberian people. For some reason all these people share the same Y dna N of different subclades, speak similar languages and has North/East Eurasian genetic affinity. I can understand that the more Eastern markers has been diluted in the modern West Siberian populations which includes Saamis, Finns, but cultural, linguistically and in some way genetically vise these people all share something in common.

Now you tell me A Finn has nothing in common with a Yakut living in Eastern Siberia, but only Finns in Europe has 5-10% East Eurasian/Siberian ancestry, why not the British have those exotic dna alleles if that would be just a mistake that these Uralic/Finnic/Eastern Siberian speakers all share in some ways a common origin.

I can understand that many European nationalistic person feel this subject intimidating and they would rather alienate themselves from their own culture, people just to appear more "European" which is a nonsense, and likely you will grow this out, but this doesn't change the reality. Read your own history books, rather invent things which doesn't exist.

Hungarians for instance are a clear example of language shifters as they have no real East Eurasian affinity, but their core people has originated from Central Asia/Western Siberia and their modern descendants has less than 3% East Asian ancestry, except some sub minorities which still carries Asian cultural elements which exists among Saamis, Finns today.

It's obvious that you don't seem very knowledgeable in this subject. I was about to make a giant respond to you, explaining why the points you bring up are clearly wrong but i decided that it isn't worth my time.

A little future tip for you: There's something called Google. If you are curious about Uralic peoples, their Urheimat and origins, then look it up! :)

Kristiina
09-04-2016, 04:07 PM
There is no consensus - or even majority opinion - that it has to be Para-Uralic or Pre-Proto-Uralic, and all linguists put the contact in Southern Siberia - what is argued is the timeframe and the stage of the languages.

If you want to stick to South Siberia as the contact area between Yukaghir and Proto-Samoyedic, what culture do you have in mind? According to Parpola’s article (The problem of Samoyed origins in the light of archaeology), Janhunen proposed that the language of Tagar was Proto-Samoyedic. We do have a paper on Tagar DNA: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-009-0683-0

I would personally think that they spoke an IE language as usually proposed. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagar_culture)

Do you think that e.g. two guys from Iron Age Afontova Gora (Rise553 R1a1 and Rise554 N-Y6503) spoke proto-Samoyedic? Or do you think that proto-Samoyedic arrived to Southern Siberia only during the Xiongnu period or even later during the Turkic era? I doubt that Yukaghiric languages could have been spoken in Baikal area that late.

Captain Nordic
09-04-2016, 04:08 PM
Ymyakhtakh is generally associated with prehistoric cultures of Taymyr, but that doesn't mean its western end in Kola and North Scandinavia was the source of Yukaghiric. Read that paper I linked earlier in this thread, it makes a pretty convincing argument that the loanwords could be proto-Samoyedic (and thus postdate the Uralic expansion out of Volga region 4k years ago). There is no consensus - or even majority opinion - that it has to be Para-Uralic or Pre-Proto-Uralic, and all linguists put the contact in Southern Siberia - what is argued is the timeframe and the stage of the languages. The earliest known Uralics in Kola Peninsula were Saami who got there during the Iron Age, and the Yukaghir loans certainly aren't Saamic or West Uralic more broadly.

Yukaghirs may have been pushed out of Taymyr but Kola Peninsula as the home of Proto-Yukaghiric which got Uralic loans there and then fled to Taymyr and further doesn't sound very parsimonious.

Shaikorth, i don't recall myself saying that Kola is the source of Yukaghiric...I only said that there is a possibility that Kola peninsula was part of the Uralic-Yukaghir contact zone. I think you missed my point.

Proto-Samoyedic is a very young branch of the Uralic language family, spoken near the Sayan mountains around 2000 years ago while Yukaghiric speakers were living further up North.
There probably were contacts between Proto-Samoyedic and Yukaghiric but there's a more ancient layer of early East uralic loanwords in Yukaghiric that probably derive from when Garbino Bor culture influenced the arctic cultures of the northern urals.

All of this leads to me thinking that the Uralic-Yukaghir contacts could have occured on pretty much all of the arctic seaboard stretching from Kola to Arctic Urals.
http://i49.tinypic.com/20952za.png

Kristiina
09-04-2016, 06:58 PM
I had a closer look at Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov and Yukaghir mtDNA on the basis of HVR1 region data (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427195/ and http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003296)

In Bolshoy there is 6xC (C4b) 223 298 327
Yukaghirs harbor C4b (C2) basic haplotype 223 298 327 519: Indigirka 26/82, Kolyma 2/18, Chuvantsi 6/32
In addition, Yukaghirs harbor C4b1, C4b2, C4b3a and C4b7

In Bolshoy, there is 2xC5 148 223 311 388 298 327 519
Yukaghirs have 5 different C5 haplotypes (C5a, C5d), but an exact HVR1 match is only with a Buryat (C5b1a1) while Nganasans harbor a close haplotype without 311 (C5b1a1)

In Bolshoy, there is 2xZ1a 129 185 223 224 260 298 and 1xZ1a with 155
Yukaghirs harbor Z1a 129 185 223 224 260 298: Indigirka 1/82, Kolyma 1/18, Chuvantsi 2/32

In Bolshoy, there is 3xD 223 362
Yukaghirs harbor D4j5 223 319 362: Kolyma 1/18
Also Nganasans harbour a close haplotype D4j4 223 362 519
A Bargut harbours the haplotype D4j 223 362 which could be the same as Bolshoy haplotype

To sum up, all Siberian haplotypes detected in Bolshoy are found in Yukaghirs on C4b, C5, Z1a/Z1a1 and D4j level on the basis of HVR1 data, and with C4b and Z1a there is an exact HVR1 match. I am not saying that this is conclusive evidence of a linguistic relationship between Yukaghirs and Bolshoy people, but considering the geographical distance (4287.45 km) and temporal distance (3500 years), I would say that this is not a coincidence. One could even claim that Central Siberian Yukaghir related groups are one of the main sources of North Siberian in Uralics.

Shaikorth
09-04-2016, 08:00 PM
I had a closer look at Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov and Yukaghir mtDNA on the basis of HVR1 region data (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427195/ and http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003296)

In Bolshoy there is 6xC (C4b) 223 298 327
Yukaghirs harbor C4b (C2) basic haplotype 223 298 327 519: Indigirka 26/82, Kolyma 2/18, Chuvantsi 6/32
In addition, Yukaghirs harbor C4b1, C4b2, C4b3a and C4b7

In Bolshoy, there is 2xC5 148 223 311 388 298 327 519
Yukaghirs have 5 different C5 haplotypes (C5a, C5d), but an exact HVR1 match is only with a Buryat (C5b1a1) while Nganasans harbor a close haplotype without 311 (C5b1a1)

In Bolshoy, there is 2xZ1a 129 185 223 224 260 298 and 1xZ1a with 155
Yukaghirs harbor Z1a 129 185 223 224 260 298: Indigirka 1/82, Kolyma 1/18, Chuvantsi 2/32

In Bolshoy, there is 3xD 223 362
Yukaghirs harbor D4j5 223 319 362: Kolyma 1/18
Also Nganasans harbour a close haplotype D4j4 223 362 519

To sum up, all Siberian haplotypes detected in Bolshoy are found in Yukaghirs on C4b, C5, Z1a/Z1a1 and D4j level on the basis of HVR1 data, and with C4b and Z1a there is an exact HVR1 match. I am not saying that this is conclusive evidence of a linguistic relationship between Yukaghirs and Bolshoy people, but considering the geographical distance (4287.45 km) and temporal distance (3500 years), I would say that this is not a coincidence. One could even claim that Central Siberian Yukaghir related groups are one of the main sources of North Siberian in Uralics.

The resolution in BOO samples is too low to pinpoint their Z1a to Yukaghirs. Yeniseians have Z1a1a.

Neither Yukaghirs or Yeniseians suffice as the source of siberian to Mordvins (even a partial one) as per Busby et al. 2015, you'll need something more southern that is simultaneusly not present in the Eastern Baltic region or Scandinavia. See table s5 (http://www.cell.com/current-biology/supplemental/S0960-9822(15)00949-5) and this (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6245-Z1a1a-Southwestern-Norwegian-cluster&p=184204&viewfull=1#post184204).

This also affects Broushaki et al TVD models. Subtable 3 in both Lazaridis (http://science.sciencemag.org/highwire/filestream/681447/field_highwire_adjunct_files/3/Table_S24.xlsx) and Busby (http://science.sciencemag.org/highwire/filestream/681447/field_highwire_adjunct_files/4/Table_S25.xlsx) merges.

Kristiina
09-04-2016, 08:49 PM
Yukaghirs are today a very small population on the verge of extinction. According to Wikipedia, their total number is only 1,509! They will surely disappear as an ethnic entity soon. However, the Yukaghiric population was probably once much bigger, and several haplotypes that they carried have surely been lost or been assimilated by other groups, e.g. Evens and Yakuts. Probably also the autosomal profile they had in Central Siberia has been lost and, instead, they have gained Beringian autosomal ancestry.

On the other hand, there was clearly quite a lot of Western Eurasian mtDNA in Bolshoy, so the Kola Peninsula population was in any case mixed Western Eurasian - Northeast Eurasian population.

Why should there be only one Siberian source for all Uralic groups?

Shaikorth
09-04-2016, 09:15 PM
Yukaghirs are today a very small population on the verge of extinction. According to Wikipedia, their total number is only 1,509! They will surely disappear as an ethnic entity soon. However, the Yukaghiric population was probably once much bigger, and several haplotypes that they carried have surely been lost or been assimilated by other groups, e.g. Evens and Yakuts. Probably also the autosomal profile they had in Central Siberia has been lost and, instead, they have gained Beringian autosomal ancestry.

On the other hand, there was clearly quite a lot of Western Eurasian mtDNA in Bolshoy, so the Kola Peninsula population was in any case mixed Western Eurasian - Northeast Eurasian population.

Why should there be only one Siberian source for all Uralic groups?

Evenks and Yakuts don't have Z1a1a, and Kets certainly did not displace the Yukaghirs. Your last question would be better off without "only" and the answer depends on what the Proto-Uralic population was like genetically.

Kristiina
09-04-2016, 09:52 PM
Z1a1a seems to be only c. 2000 years old, so it is younger than the age of Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov burials. Z1a1 seems to be c. 7000 years old, and it includes Z1a1b of Evens, Yukaghirs and Nganasans. So, we have Z1a1 in Central Siberia c. 5000 BC from which an eastern and western branch develop.

It is interesting that Z1a is c. 9000 years old, and its all three branches, Z1a1, Z1a2 and Z1a3, are found in Yukaghirs.

The Baraba Steppe paper detected Z in western Siberia in Ust Tartas, Odinovo and Krotovo burials. The oldest Ust Tartas phase is dated 4000-3000 BC. There are six samples and four different haplotypes, and none of them seems to be Z1a as they lack 16129 and 16124. Instead, Z1(xZ1a) has been detected in a Turkic speaking Tofalar.

Therefore, it looks like Bolshoy Z1a is not from Baraba Steppe area north of Kazakhstan but has a more northern origin. Moreover, western and central Siberia may have had more Z1 diversity than today as Ust Tartas and Krotovo haplotypes have not been detected in modern populations.

Evens and Yakuts are only the most recent populations that have assimilated Yukaghirs. Nganasans have probably also assimilated a lot of Yukaghir haplotypes and autosomal DNA. Evenks also. Why not also Yeniseians. Men can marry women from other tribes without any violence or ethnic displacement.

Megalophias
09-05-2016, 11:51 PM
It makes me wonder if the lack of haplogroup - language correlation for haplogroups N is an "odd exception", or a valuable lesson against the possibly simplistic conclusions for other language families ....
Not unusual except in its great geographical range and the fortunate survival of many minority languages in Siberia into the present, IMO.

A couple of relevant abstracts from an upcoming conference (also for the significance of Z1a):

Comparing population history inferred from genetic and linguistic data in Central Asia
AUSTERLITZ Frédéric1, Philippe Mennecier1, Remco Bouckaert2, Franz Manni1, Phillip Endicott1, Russell Gray3, Quentin D. Atkinson3, Evelyne Heyer1.

Genetic and linguistic contribute to the understanding of the biological and cultural history of human populations. We compared the diversity of Central Asian populations as it is mirrored by this kind of data. These human groups belong to two distinct linguistic families: Indo-Iranian and Turkic. Concerning the linguistic data, we used a modified Swadesh lists of concepts concerning basic vocabulary. Words were classified into cognates, i.e. homologous words related by common ancestry. For genetic polymorphism data, we used mitochondrial DNA sequences, Y-chromosome and autosomal microsatellites. To infer the genealogical tree of the populations the program starBeast has been used for both datasets. We compared the two trees obtained and found that the autosomal microsatellite tree had the best congruence with the linguistic tree. This may reflect the information gained by using many independent loci. Furthermore, the mitochondrial tree shows more congruence with the linguistic tree than the Y-chromosome tree, an interesting result in these populations known to be patrilineal. Finally, we find several populations from one linguistic group to genetically cluster with the other linguistic group, which might reflect specific linguistic replacements.

Reassessing the influence of social organization on genomic diversity: the case of Austroasiatic populations of South-East Asia
LY Goki, Raphaelle Chaix et al.

We investigated the influence of these three components of social organization on uniparental and autosomal diversity in 12 ethnic groups from South-East Asia which exhibit different social organizations. We estimated quantitative variables associated with social organization from ethno-demographic data collected in 535 households and calculated genetic estimators from genomic data of more than 400 individuals for uniparental data and 800 individuals for autosomal data. As expected, mitochondrial diversity was lower in matrilineal and matrilocal populations than in cognatic populations or in patrilineal and patrilocal populations and was correlated with female migration rates estimated from ethno-demographic data. Unexpectedly, Y chromosome diversity was not different across social organizations. Quantified male migration rates were also similar across social organizations which allow us to understand the lack of difference of Y chromosome diversity. In addition, we detected an influence of descent group structure on uniparental genetic diversity. Consanguinity levels estimated on autosomal data were higher in matrilineal and matrilocal populations than in cognatic populations or patrilineal and patrilocal populations. These higher levels were associated with a higher proportion of within village alliances in matrilineal and matrilocal populations.

Giamesh
04-17-2017, 07:07 PM
A relative to me in the USA tested her mtDNA and got back her results as Z1a. I am a Norwegian myself, and the closest this Z1a maternal line is to me, is my 4th grandmother. This line trace back all the way to my 7th grandmother. Susanna Johansdatter https://www.geni.com/people/Susanna-Johansdatter/6000000007441996031 She was born 1715 in the Tornevalley. This valley follows where the border between Finland and Sweden are today. She has over 5000 decendants according to geni, and from my own experience she has many ancestors living all over Norway. She was part of a group of Finns called Kvens, that migrated to the northern parts of Norway in the 17th and 18th century. And my guess is you can call it some sort of founder effect, when the Kvens came to some parts of northern Norway that was not very populated. Most of them mixed with Norwegians from the south and had alot of kids. Today you can find alot of her decendants all over Norway and parts of USA. And the Z1a haplogroup is probably showing up alot of places because of this.

Giamesh
04-18-2017, 08:11 AM
After getting some more info on this maternal Z1a line, I have found out that it does not go directly back to Susanna Johansdatter as I wrongly wrote. But to another woman living in northern Norway in the Troms area around the same time, with very similar genetic background. But I can't be 100% sure her maternal line is Finnish Kven. All the other information do still apply.

Шад
03-31-2019, 05:41 PM
https://yfull.com/mtree/Z1a/