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Bulat
01-17-2016, 03:09 PM
Hello!

Also have a haplotype of Rurik dynasty from Yaroslavl line Russian Kings. His relatives of this haplotype - other Rurikids: Karpovs and Belosselsky-Belotserkovsky.

279671 Tyumen Cossack, Tyumen, R1a-Z280, Z92+, YP569+,
13 25 16 11 11-15 12 12 11 13 11 30

174778 Karpov, Rurik dynasty, R1a-Z280, Z92+, YP569+,
13 25 16 11 11-15 12 12 10 13 11 30

188621 Belosselsky-Belozersky, Rurik dynasty, R1a-Z280, Z92+, YP569+,
13 25 16 11 11-15 12 12 10 13 11 31

Sincerely Bulat.

Page 6-9.

https://www.academia.edu/20325913/%D0%9C%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%91. %D0%90._%D0%A1%D1%83%D1%8E%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%A 0.%D0%A0._%D0%A2%D1%8E%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%86%D0% B5%D0%B2_%D0%98.%D0%92._%D0%98%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D 1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0 %B8%D0%B8_%D0%A2%D1%8E%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%86%D0% B5%D0%B2%D1%8B%D1%85_-_2._%D0%94%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%94%D0 %9D%D0%9A-%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0_BEHPS_Volume_3_1_1_ 2_January_2016_P.6-20

lyakh
03-25-2017, 06:03 PM
R1a-Z92-YP569 has young age of TMRCA (YFull gives 1800 years) and is present in all East Slavic countries - not only in Belarus and Russia, but also in Ukraine.

It is interesting if this clade was not Baltic before Slavic expansion which occurred about 1500 BP. Maybe it is a clade of early slavicised Balts?

Dibran
08-23-2017, 04:04 PM
Hello!

Also have a haplotype of Rurik dynasty from Yaroslavl line Russian Kings. His relatives of this haplotype - other Rurikids: Karpovs and Belosselsky-Belotserkovsky.

279671 Tyumen Cossack, Tyumen, R1a-Z280, Z92+, YP569+,
13 25 16 11 11-15 12 12 11 13 11 30

174778 Karpov, Rurik dynasty, R1a-Z280, Z92+, YP569+,
13 25 16 11 11-15 12 12 10 13 11 30

188621 Belosselsky-Belozersky, Rurik dynasty, R1a-Z280, Z92+, YP569+,
13 25 16 11 11-15 12 12 10 13 11 31

Sincerely Bulat.

Page 6-9.

https://www.academia.edu/20325913/%D0%9C%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%91. %D0%90._%D0%A1%D1%83%D1%8E%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%A 0.%D0%A0._%D0%A2%D1%8E%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%86%D0% B5%D0%B2_%D0%98.%D0%92._%D0%98%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D 1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0 %B8%D0%B8_%D0%A2%D1%8E%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%86%D0% B5%D0%B2%D1%8B%D1%85_-_2._%D0%94%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%94%D0 %9D%D0%9A-%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0_BEHPS_Volume_3_1_1_ 2_January_2016_P.6-20

I thought Rurikids were of Viking descent, and that Z280 is Balto-Slavic? Does this indicates Z280 is not Slavic or that Rurikids were actually Slavic and not Viking?

Jenny
09-29-2017, 08:35 AM
I'm shocked,seriously! I thought most Rurkids were some flavour of N. I'm pretty, pretty, pretty sure those were not Behar's results

Pylsteen
09-29-2017, 10:26 AM
Most of the lines tracing back to Rurik have the N. Even most Belozersky have N, though some branches, especially many lines from Yuri of Torussa have R1a, and others I2, which points to a false paper trail or a non-paternality event. The N seems the original Rurikid haplogroup. Descendants of Yuri prince of Torussa (Obolonsky, Volkonsky) seem to have R1a. It may be Yuri which does have a different father, since descendants from his brother Mstistlav, the Massalsky family, does show N.

Michał
09-29-2017, 10:41 AM
While the majority of known patrilineages that are supposed to descend from Rurik belong to a very specific subclade under N1c, there are also some minor lineages that claim Rurik ancestry but belong to other haplogroups, and this includes some lineages from the Slavic clades R1a-L260 or R1a-YP569, among others. Based on the available Y-DNA results and on the known family tree for the Rurikid dynasty, one can quite easily discriminate between those lineages that are indeed very likely to descend from Rurik and those that in fact descend from other medieval ancestors, like it is the case for a specific subclade under R1-L260 that seems to have been associated with the Princes of Chernigov, and the same seems to be true for the Belosselsky-Belozersky Princes who most likely were members of a different subclade under R1a (downstream of YP569).

Boreas
03-19-2018, 07:23 PM
R1a-YP569 could very well be of "Viking" or "Varangian" descent.

Vikingtime Sweden was ruled by a royal line called Linga-ett, from which the Norwegian Ynglinga-ett descended as of 770 AD and the Russian Rurik-ids branched of by 862 AD. Their common y-dna shows up as R1a.

It's noteworthy that the kingdoms described by Tacitus as "Sueones" seem to correspond with the populations of cattle-farmers later known as "Sueons" and "Svetjodi". The latter refer to the area of present "Sweden", which seems to be the (royal) mainland of the "Sueones", from which various (princerly) branches could go out.

Thus we may find various "stages" of R1a branching into Norway and Scotland respective to Eastern Baltics and Russia.

When the viking-time princes from Sweden arrived in Norway and Russia to perform constitutional duties it became a unifying token between the populations of Russia and Scandianvia, both under economic, political and military pressure from the holy version of the Greek and Roman empires, brutally expanding north to conquer all of Europe - "to the outer limits of the world". Which is why some historians have adressed "viking-time" as "a Nordic resistance-war, with counter-acting attacks" - where Russians and Britts were the most important allies to the Scandianvian kingdoms.

According to the Norse and the Novgorod Chronicles the "Varangian Prince" that became chrowned in the year 862 as Rurik, had his origin in Sweden, most likely from their royal palace at Uppsala. In effect he was unifying the fenno-ugric populations in the north (Ros-ki) with the slavonic speakers in the south (Garda-riki/Bulgar) into the Novgorod-Kiev Kingdom, also known as "Gardariki Rosland". Unted under one and the same Monarch, in turn closely related to the major kingdom behind the Nordic alliance of Fleet and Forces ("Vikings"). When Brittish and Scandianvian warriors later travelled east to serve their Russian ally they where named "Varangi", while their fenno-ugric neighbours (Finns, Carelians, Balts) also serving in the royal guards of "Könugard" (Kiev) and "Miklagard" (Konstantinopel) were called "Kolbjagi".
Please note that descendent princes of the Rurikid family-line would become noblemen/rulers in todays Lithuania, Belo-Rus and Poland as well as Ukraine and Russia.

In the old, heathen cultures the noblemen were supposed to multiply radically, through a five-cast reproduction-system, where the y-dna of the royal house exclusively forming the new generations of noblemen, the 'royal gen' would spread to every village and farm in the kingdom - connecting centre and periphery and everything inbetween by continously re-inforcement of a genetical relationship, identifying a 'tribe' or an 'aet'. As in aet-nicity, where aet means 'one', subsequently 'one-ness'.

R1a seem to be the gentic marker of the first Swedish and other highland farmers, while R1b can be connected - even more strongly - to the emergence of the lowland agriculture of the Danish, Dutsch, German and Britt. The area with highest percentage of Lactose Persistence - potentially oldest populations specializing in cattle-farming - is encircling Scania, Zeeland and Jutland. The dominant y-dna-groups in this area are (still) R1b, R1a and I1.

As the oldest remains of early cattles ("Aurochs") found inside a human settlement is 11.100 years old, dug up on a one of the many mesolithic sites in Scania. As the European Aurochs is KNOWN to be ancestral to ALL doemsticated cattles we need a culture proxy to it's natural habitat - in the European lowlands/wetlands - to explain the first domesticayion. As tghe Younger Dryas would force the suffering population into NEW venues to sustain life that can explain the forced adaption to milk and dairies.

The Scanian and Danish bulls known from Paleolithic and Mesolithic time co-incide - in time and space - with the worlds firsts and foremost milk-drinkers. Which should be close to area where R1a and R1b separated to become "highlanders" versus "lowlanders", by creating lifestocks that could adapt to various climates and biotopes.

Today there's no need for the "Fertile Crescent" to explain the origin of cattle-farming and the domestication of the (NW) European Aurochs - by selective breeding tuned into a variety of "breeds". Just like their y-dna cowboys.

The first spread of R1a and R1b seem to follow the Boreal phase of the Holocene climate-period, to 'take off' during the Atlantic phase, also known as the "Holocene Optimum", when ENE became LNE - and copper ("ross") started to appear, along with arsen, asbestos, sulphur, led and tin - to become "bronze". The oldest bronze is found in Serbia and central Europe, together with the oldest painting of spoked wheels and wagons, as well as the oldest known wagon-wheels and paved roads. The connections between the Balkan and the Baltic seems far more important to the origin and spread of cattle-farming, ox-charts and metallurgy than the connections proven to have migrated from Anatolia, Sumer or Indus.

The oposite migration - from the north towards the south - is far more likely and logic, to explain the rapid adaption to a wide range of climatical and biotopical factos - reaching western China as well as Ireland and Biscay - no later than Bronze Age, when the first "Celtic Motives" can be traced in Bronze Age art - across the IE langauage-zones and clearly shared with the Uralian cultures of NE Europe.

The eastward migration of R1a ("highlanders"/"woodlanders") would bring cattle-farming along the Volga to reach Samara and Tocharia, as well as Bactria and India. As the first Swedes came out of the same ancestral R1a as the first Russians we finally get an explanation to why the old, Norse sagas - written by the I2/i1-clan of "norsemen" - used to call Russia (before viking-time) the "Greater Sweden" as well as the "Colder Sweden".

Thus we may view the descendants of the Rurikids a later influx (sideline) from the Scandianvian side of the water - brought in to unify an alliance between populations from various old dynasties - such as N1, R1a and R1b. As the vikings lost the Battle of Denmark (983-84) and most of the allied army their Russian ally had to "convert" their relationship with Konstantinopel to that of the servant, rather than the neighbour. In a marriage between a bysantine princess and grand duke Vladmir of Novgorod-Kiev the entire alliance of "Gardariki-Russia" would accept the Greek-Orthodox Church- and Trade-language as the new official language of the Russian Grand Ducy, taking the new Slavonic language-norm from the Cyrillian side of the Black Sea to trade the "arctic treasures" out of the White Sea and the "silk and spice" from the Caspian Sea - into a common Church- and Trade-zone gouverned by Konstantinopel and Hagia Sofia.

Duely we find the slavonic languages spreading upstreams Donau to Balkan and downstreams Vistula and Dvina to Poland and Lithuania - including local branches of R1b and I2/I1. The later catholization of Poland, Lithuania and Estonia is yet another twist of the somewhat abruptive changes that appeared as the western and eastern churches got into warfaring conflicts along the east-west-divide - leaving the "wends" of Poland and Lithuania between the fire and the ash, as the HRE wanted ALL of the Baltic shores and waterways to themselves. Effectively they could close the old routes between the Baltic and The Volga river-system - denying Konstantinopel access to all of western Europe from Carelia to the Dardarnelles. Then the Venetian Merchants could re-route the entire trade between Europe and Asia to fit the desires of Venice, already the richest among the rich in the Catholic world and the major shareholder in the new and holy Roman Empire. (Since their astronomical looting of South- and Latin-America, still safely stored in hiding, they have even claimed to be Almighty - as in 'chosen by destiny' to rule the world as they may seem fit...)

The old "gens" and "gentes" from Pre-Roman time, as noted by Tacitus, Plinius and Ptolemy, can actually be reffered to as R1b: Germani, Dani, Brettoni and R1a; Sueones, Suebi and Suevi. Meanwhile the old WHG turns up with I2, before turning into "Goths" and "Vends" as I2/I1 respectively N1.

The eastern migration of cattle-farming highlanders obviously took R1a along the Boreal forests of arctic Eurasia - creating a mix of EBK and CCC to produce CWC.
Meanwhile another dynasty of cattle-farming lowlanders took R1b to the warmer areas of Europe and Central Asia - creating a mix of TBK and CCC to produce "Yamna-beakers" - from Vistula and the Carpats to Djepr, Don and Trans-Caucasia.

To complement the pioneering populations of arctic Eurasia, spreading as HG and Herders - producing the first dynasty/ies of y-dna I2 along the northern rivers, while a G2-dynasty re-populated the the southward rivers as well as the Black Sea and the Meds. Similarily we find J2 to dominate the re-population east of Anatolia - from Iran to India. As the cattle-breeding evolves we find R1a and/or R1b to migrate into all of these areas -requiring a COMMON language-base to have existed - from Iberia to Siberia and India - BEFORE the very start of the "Neolithic Revolution". The search for the historic origins of the PIE language is still not over - however much the Harvard geneticians like to support David Anthonys old, refuted thesis about the origin of Wheels and mounted Horses being a "phenomenon of the Pontic Steppes" and the "Kura-Araxes-culture" turning "Yamna/Kurgan".

The arid steppes did not produce the first cattle-farmers and horse-riders. The grassy noles and meadows of western Europe did.

Which is why the lowlands between the Eastern Baltic and the Black Sea became central to the spread of cattle-farming and horse-breeding, from where the "warm-blooded breeds" reached Armenia, Sumer and Egypt, courtesy of a branch from R1b - while the "cold-blooded breeds" could 'conquer' the northern plains and the elevated marshes and moors of Europe and Asia, reaching western China and northern India, thanks to the migrations of R1a.

Consequently we have to view the Rurikids with R1a as the genuine descendants of "A varangian prince" from "Swedish royals" - while R1b would reflect Danish/German royals, I2/I1 could reveal "gothic" nobility and N1 reflect the native nobility of an old, Fenno-Ugric kingdom - based around the Golf of Finland and the Carelian Isthmus, from where their descendants were the first to re-populate the boreal woodlands during the Mesolithic - from Carelia via Belozero to the great waterway of Volga - thus reaching Caspia, Uralia, Tocharia and Tibet.

As the Mesolithic turned Neolithic - some 8.500 BP - the first HG (y-dna GHIJK) got complemented with the first cattle-farmers - spreading R1a in the north and east, into territories otherwise ruled by dynasties of I2, N1 or J2, while R1b become the primary cattle-farmers to interact with the indigenous G2-societies of southern Europe and Asia Minor. When a far later, western subclad of R1a - as YP569 - reach the eastern societies it's another off-spring from the original house of the the CWC-farmers known to spread by R1a.

ADW_1981
03-19-2018, 07:48 PM
R1a is linked to Corded Ware, and the Battle Ax culture in Scandinavia. It's quite old in the region actually and consists of only a few very successful branches most likely dating to this time period. R1a would most definitely be in the region long before the migration period, and through association linked to 'viking raids', but definitely not exclusively. R1a is actually the easiest of the puzzle pieces.