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Agamemnon
01-19-2016, 07:04 PM
^^ More about 3DRIF-26 (the "Roman skeleton [...] of exogenous origin"), from the study:

One York Roman 3DRIF-26 gives a clear Middle Eastern signal, with closest neighbours of Palestinian, Jordanian and Syrian origin. This dichotomy is also apparent in maximum likelihood estimation of individual ancestries using NGSadmix (Fig. 1b). In this, when a model of three ancestral populations is imposed across the entire sample, this analysis highlights three major geographical foci: Europe; North Africa; and West Asia/Middle East. The European ancestral component predominates in the majority of ancient samples (which show similar profiles to modern northwestern Europeans), whereas 3DRIF-26 again shows a majority West Asian/Middle Eastern component. Isotopic analyses of the skeletons support this genetic differentiation of 3DRIF-26 from the remainder of the individuals sampled. Strontium isotope ratios (87Sr/86Sr) vary mainly according to geological substrate, while oxygen isotope values (q18O), which track locally available drinking water, reflect climatic and geographic variables such as temperature, rainfall levels or distance from the coast22. When we compared these ratios in our seven samples with other British Romans, 3DRIF-26 showed both an unusually low 87Sr/86Sr ratio and an extreme q18Op value (Supplementary Fig. 2).

[...]

Interestingly, the top-ranked modern sample for IBS for each of these ancient British samples was one of the formerly Celtic language-speaking regions of the British Isles, with the single exception of 3DRIF-26, which showed highest IBS with samples from Saudi Arabia. We gauged the sensitivity of this approach by checking whether individual modern samples were assignable to their region of origin. When tested, local individuals were assigned with high frequency (0.97) to the British Isles and also most often to their correct country. The method showed lower sensitivity for Middle Eastern genotypes, with primary assignment to that region in only 39% of instances (Supplementary Fig. 15). Nevertheless, outside assignments tended to be to Cypriot, Sardinian and Druze, never to Northern Europe. In contrast, specificity of a Middle Eastern assignment was high—only three individuals, from Iran, Tunisia and Morocco, were incorrectly assigned to that region. Thus, assignment of 3DRIF-26 to the Middle East region seems secure, but resolution to an individual population may not be possible. Specificity in assignment to the British Isles was lower, with about half of assignments (0.53) derived from elsewhere, most often from neighbouring populations such as France (0.28) and Norway (0.15). Small sample sizes (B10 per population) render individual scores only weakly informative but, when we compared the six Roman burials after excluding the outlying 3DRIF-26, their rank orders across the geographical sample were highly correlated (Spearman rank correlation coefficients (r ¼ 0.982; Po0.01; Supplementary Note 2, Supplementary Figs 12–14 and Supplementary Tables 11 and 12).

[...]

Five samples returned imputed lactase persistence genotypes: two Roman burials and the Iron-Age individual were likely to have been lactase persistent, while two Romans, 6DRIF-22 and the suspected migrant 3DRIF-26 were homozygous for the ancestral non-persistence variant.

[...]

Combined genomic and isotopic evidence support the inference that the origins and childhood of individual 3DRIF-26 lay far outside Britain. His modern genomic affinities clearly lie with the Middle East. Isotopically, the most plausible suggestion is an arid environment on igneous or limestone geology, which is consistent with the same regions (Supplementary Fig. 2 and Supplementary Note 2). Hence, although this individual is indistinguishable from the other inhumations in terms of burial practice and osteology, the analyses show that, even in its northernmost provincial capital, the profoundly cosmopolitan nature of the Roman Empire suggested by documentary and epigraphic sources continued to hold sway.


Here's the PCA plot (Fig.1):

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/images/ncomms10326-f1.jpg

3DRIF-26 carried Y-DNA haplogroup J2 and mtDNA haplogroup H5, more resolution on these markers could enable us to make educated regarding his place of origin.

Shaikorth
01-19-2016, 07:34 PM
This is a thread for the new Martiniano et al. (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/full/ncomms10326.html#f4) paper.


The purported migrations that have formed the peoples of Britain have been the focus of generations of scholarly controversy. However, this has not benefited from direct analyses of ancient genomes. Here we report nine ancient genomes (~1 ×) of individuals from northern Britain: seven from a Roman era York cemetery, bookended by earlier Iron-Age and later Anglo-Saxon burials. Six of the Roman genomes show affinity with modern British Celtic populations, particularly Welsh, but significantly diverge from populations from Yorkshire and other eastern English samples. They also show similarity with the earlier Iron-Age genome, suggesting population continuity, but differ from the later Anglo-Saxon genome. This pattern concords with profound impact of migrations in the Anglo-Saxon period. Strikingly, one Roman skeleton shows a clear signal of exogenous origin, with affinities pointing towards the Middle East, confirming the cosmopolitan character of the Empire, even at its northernmost fringes.

These results, probably to no one's surprise, don't exactly support the old idea of Iron Age Celts being "Mediterranean" but they sure look Welsh and Irish. Further, it appears one can be similar to Anglo-Saxons without being close to Celts but not vice versa.

http://oi66.tinypic.com/2568kuw.jpg

IBS-similarity scores. 3DRIF-26 has J2-L228 and indeed looks autosomally Near Eastern, all other DRIF are R1b. Anglo-Saxon is I1-S107.

http://oi66.tinypic.com/2choxgm.jpg

R.Rocca
01-19-2016, 07:49 PM
Sample 6DRIF-22 is R1b-U152+

rms2
01-19-2016, 07:50 PM
Interesting that, of the R1b Roman males, two were R1b-U106, one was R1b-U152, and one was R1b-DF63 (downstream of L21).

I have not had time to read the paper in detail, but apparently they were all either gladiators or possibly Roman military men.

I glanced through it kind of fast, but were all of them decapitated? Is that right?

R.Rocca
01-19-2016, 08:02 PM
Interesting that, of the R1b Roman males, two were R1b-U106, one was R1b-U152, and one was R1b-DF63 (downstream of L21).

I have not had time to read the paper in detail, but apparently they were all either gladiators or possibly Roman military men.

I glanced through it kind of fast, but were all of them decapitated? Is that right?

The paper says that the bodies fit the profile of gladiators buried in a different cemetery or they could have been Roman soldiers..either way, it states they were of British origin.

Krefter
01-19-2016, 08:03 PM
3DRIF-26 clusters with Levant(Palestine, Jordan) on PCA and in ADMIXTRUE scores most similar to to Levant(Palestine, Jordan). He was definitely from Levant, because it was apart of the Roman empire. He can be used to test how much of a genetic affect the expansion of Islam had on the Levant. He also is a good proxy for the non-European ancestors of European-Jews.

Agamemnon
01-19-2016, 08:06 PM
3DRIF-16 and 3DRIF-3 were R1b-U106 (they're both listed as R1b-M405/S21 in the study), I find that rather interesting, it would seem not all U106 arrived in the Isles with the Anglo-Saxons, this marker's sheer diversity in Britain already suggested that IMO.
6DRIF-22 was R1b-U152 (listed as S28), here's what we can read in the sup data:

"In R1b* derived European Y-*chromosomes, L52 lineages are present in more than 90% of Europeans, and are characterized by a frequency gradient towards the West of Europe. There is a resemblance between R1b-*M269 and L52, except that the latter is seen at much lower frequencies in the East of Europe. This trend is also observed at the level of the British Isles, where L52 reaches its highest frequencies in Wales, Ireland and Scotland. All Roman York samples were assigned to L52/L11, either by direct observation of the derived alleles, or by belonging to sub*lineages that imply membership to this branch. Deeper phylogenetic resolution was achieved for some of the samples: 3DRIF*16 and 6DRIF*3 are derived for S21/M405, which can be detected in ~60% of M269+ Y*chromosomes in Central Europe, 6DRIF*21 belongs to DF63, a sub*lineage of S145/L21, more commonly found in the British Isles, in particular Ireland and Wales, and 6DRIF*22 was identified as belonging to haplogroup S28, present in modern* day Switzerland, Italy and France, but also reaches over 15% in certain English and German regions. Sample 3DRIF*26 is clearly an exception, both in terms of autosomal variation as in the Y-*chromosome lineage it presents (J2), common in the Middle East, Caucasus, Balkans and Italy and attributed to neolithic demic migrations or to seafaring Phoenicians. The Anglo-*Saxon sample (NO3423) was assigned to I1 lineage, characterized by higher frequencies Nordic countries and in a british context it is more common in East/Central England with a decrease in frequency towards the West and this distribution has been interpreted as Anglo-*Saxon mass migrations into Britain."


http://pichoster.net/images/2016/01/19/sup%20figure%2012.jpg

rms2
01-19-2016, 08:07 PM
The paper says that the bodies fit the profile of gladiators buried in a different cemetery or they could have been Roman soldiers..either way, it states they were of British origin.

Well, they were Romano-Brits at least, grown locally. Interesting collection of y haplogroups. Thus far, that's the earliest U106, U152 and DF63 in Britain.

Ignis90
01-19-2016, 08:12 PM
Here we are, finally autosomal aDNA from the ancient Middle East (through Britain :biggrin1:) that looks modern. 2000 years old isn't very ancient indeed but it predates the islamic period that supposedly completely changed the face of the region.


In the supplements, 3DRIF-26 clusters with Syrians in terms of African ancestry but not in the Middle East + North Africa PCA where he's closest to UAE. I must say I don't like the PCA because it's - as always - hijacked by Mozabites and Bedouins but it's pretty clear this individual is a bit different from modern non-bedouins Levantines.

Leeroy Jenkins
01-19-2016, 08:12 PM
3DRIF-26 clusters with Levant(Palestine, Jordan) on PCA and in ADMIXTRUE scores most similar to to Levant(Palestine, Jordan). He was definitely from Levant, because it was apart of the Roman empire. He can be used to test how much of a genetic affect the expansion of Islam had on the Levant. He also is a good proxy for the non-European ancestors of European-Jews.

From the supplementary materials:


Sr*isotope and concentration and oxygen isotope data for 3DRIF*26 is inconsistent with Europe and
consistent with origins on basalt or limestone terrains in a hot, dry region of northern Africa or the
Levant. Dietary (C and N) isotope data are consistent with this and suggest a childhood in an area where
aridity had a significant effect on δ
15N values but were C4*plants or marine resources made no significant
contribution to the protein intake. Origins for all other individuals in Britain cannot be ruled out but have
potentially important implications for the definition of the British isotope range.

This Y-DNA J2 man was genetically MENA and the isotope data point to that as well.

rms2
01-19-2016, 08:14 PM
3DRIF-16 and 3DRIF-3 were R1b-U106 (they're both listed as R1b-M405/S21 in the study), I find that rather interesting, it would seem not all U106 arrived in the Isles with the Anglo-Saxons, this marker's sheer diversity in Britain already suggested that IMO . . .

I still think it likely the bulk of English U106 arrived with the Anglo-Saxons. Those two U106 Romano-Brits could be the sons or grandsons of German auxiliaries in Roman service and British (i.e., Celtic) women.

Agamemnon
01-19-2016, 08:18 PM
Here we are, finally autosomal aDNA from the ancient Middle East (through Britain :biggrin1:) that looks modern. 2000 years old isn't very ancient indeed but it predates the islamic period that supposedly completely changed the face of the region.


In the supplements, 3-DRIF26 clusters with Syrians in terms of African ancestry but not in the Middle East + North Africa PCA where he's closest to UAE. I must say I don't like the PCA because it's - as always - hijacked by Mozabites and Bedouins but it's pretty clear this individual is a bit different from modern non-bedouins Levantines.

Yup, the study actually stated that he shows highest IBS with Saudis, you can also see that in Fig. 12 I posted above.

Shaikorth
01-19-2016, 08:28 PM
Yup, the study actually stated that he shows the highest IBS with Saudis, you can also see that in Fig. 12 I posted above.

His IBS with Saudis, Druze, Cypriots, South Italians and Sardinians is almost the same, 0.673 median.

However these Saudis aren't the most mixed Arabs around, perhaps due to tribal endogamy, and are actually pretty similar to Yemeni Jews. UAE and Palestinians have at least more SSA and are more distant from the ancient sample.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-19-2016, 08:34 PM
The paper says that the bodies fit the profile of gladiators buried in a different cemetery or they could have been Roman soldiers..either way, it states they were of British origin.

"In the Roman York burials at Driffield Terrace, the majority were adults under 45 years old, male and most had evidence of decapitation36. They were slightly taller than average for Roman Britain, displayed a high occurrence of trauma, potentially related to interpersonal violence and evidenced childhood stress and infection (Supplementary Tables 1 and 2 and Supplementary Note 1). This demographic profile resembles the population structure in a recently excavated burial ground of the second and third century AD at Ephesus, which has been interpreted to be a burial ground for gladiators37. However, the evidence could also fit with a military context; the Roman army had a minimum height for recruitment38 and fallen soldiers would match the young adult profile of the cemetery. In this later Roman period increasingly large numbers of soldiers were enlisted locally33"

Dubhthach
01-19-2016, 08:35 PM
The presence of DF63 in York isn't too surprising given some of it's modern distribution (I'm thinking the Lennox cluster etc.), it would be interesting if the U106 samples were resolved to a higher level (eg. exact sub-clade etc)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-19-2016, 08:38 PM
I still think it likely the bulk of English U106 arrived with the Anglo-Saxons. Those two U106 Romano-Brits could be the sons or grandsons of German auxiliaries in Roman service and British (i.e., Celtic) women.

Appreciate it's a small sample and possibly disproportionate, but two out of six, pre-Saxon U106?

Krefter
01-19-2016, 08:39 PM
I still think it likely the bulk of English U106 arrived with the Anglo-Saxons. Those two U106 Romano-Brits could be the sons or grandsons of German auxiliaries in Roman service and British (i.e., Celtic) women.

Good point. There isn't a huge difference between Germans and British-Celts. If they were 25% German it'd be hard to detect.

ADW_1981
01-19-2016, 08:39 PM
I still think it likely the bulk of English U106 arrived with the Anglo-Saxons. Those two U106 Romano-Brits could be the sons or grandsons of German auxiliaries in Roman service and British (i.e., Celtic) women.

They would pretty much have to be by that argument. All 6 cluster with Iron Age Briton, or modern Welsh populations. I haven't seen the most recent stats for Wales, but aren't most men within some L21+ cluster? Yet we have U152, U106, and L11+ (which I wonder might have SNPs for something downstream of P312 once we see the raw data).

Agamemnon
01-19-2016, 08:39 PM
I would certainly like to see more resolution as far as 3DRIF-26's uniparental lineages are of concern, that would enable us to make an educated guess regarding his place of origin.

Dubhthach
01-19-2016, 08:57 PM
How many aDNA genomes are we looking at from Ireland and Britian now?

4 from Ireland (1 x Neolithic, 3 x BA -- Rathlin), 9 from England (York -- 1 x pre-roman Iron age, 7 Roman period, 1 x Anglo-Saxon) in this study, 10 from Eastern England (3 x Iron age including Hinxton, 7 Anglo-Saxon period). Is that right?

That puts us at a total of 23 aDNA genomes, not bad going! Now we just need some from Wales and Scotland! It's gonna be an interesting year ahead I bet.

Dubhthach
01-19-2016, 08:58 PM
The "Middle-Eastern" remain from York, is it possibly the first Roman period aDNA genome that has ultimate origin in middle-east? (Obviously we have earlier neolithic remains from Turkey), if so it potentially very important for view into modern population structure there.

Dubhthach
01-19-2016, 09:06 PM
This is interesting note how at least 2-3 of the "Roman" samples are intermediate between modern Welsh and English median's. I'd be curious what specific samples these are:

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/images/ncomms10326-f3.jpg

Agamemnon
01-19-2016, 09:10 PM
The "Middle-Eastern" remain from York, is it possibly the first Roman period aDNA genome that has ultimate origin in middle-east? (Obviously we have earlier neolithic remains from Turkey), if so it potentially very important for view into modern population structure there.

Yes it is, that's why having more resolution for this sample's uniparental lineages would prove helpful in pinpointing this individual's ultimate origins. While it's possible he came from the province of Syria, it's equally likely he came from Nabataea.

Dubhthach
01-19-2016, 09:19 PM
Someone got confused about the "P''s and "Q's" oh dear!



By the same token, it lends support for genetic exchange between Scotland and Ireland, as attested in some historical sources and mirrored by linguistic affinity: Irish and Scottish Gaelic are sister P-Celtic languages, whereas Welsh is a divergent Q-Celtic language, akin to that thought to have been spoken throughout pre-Roman Britain35.


Ouch!!! -- not even sure about the use of term divergent is helpful in this context, linguists aren't gonna be happy :)

Arbogan
01-19-2016, 09:24 PM
Finally. Some evidence that will bring the "classic middle-east of antiquity was mixed beyond recognition by swarthy barbarians" nonsense narrative to an end.

Lank
01-19-2016, 09:50 PM
Yes it is, that's why having more resolution for this sample's uniparental lineages would prove helpful in pinpointing this individual's ultimate origins. While it's possible he came from the province of Syria, it's equally likely he came from Nabataea.
I think the results would match Nabataea rather well. A bit more southerly than typical Levantine groups, but not quite Arabian.

aarnisotka
01-19-2016, 10:10 PM
http://oi66.tinypic.com/2568kuw.jpg

According to this pic there is actually a bit more Celtic ancestry in Norway than in England, which I guess is a bit surprising.

ChrisR
01-19-2016, 10:24 PM
Yes it is, that's why having more resolution for this sample's uniparental lineages would prove helpful in pinpointing this individual's ultimate origins. While it's possible he came from the province of Syria, it's equally likely he came from Nabataea.
Nice! Finally ancient J2 from Britain. So 1/8 is J2 (6 R1b, one I1). I would like to do analysis on Sample 3DRIF-26 (1.13X coverage) but seems no VCF or BAM is available. Only FASTQ which is not easyforward to analyze (without fast internet / good hardware) and so far I have not found which ID is used for 3DRIF-26 in the raw files: www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB11004
I may wait until the ID quest is resolved by others or has someone already?

Keep the J2 NGS data coming in 2016! ;-)

ADW_1981
01-19-2016, 10:38 PM
Finally. Some evidence that will bring the "classic middle-east of antiquity was mixed beyond recognition by swarthy barbarians" nonsense narrative to an end.

I don't follow. The paper wasn't able to solidly identify which contemporary Middle Eastern population the J2 fellow resembled the most, where as the other 6 samples solidly fit into a Iron Age British cluster. This doesn't mean the Middle East hasn't been subject to immigration, unless you are trying to push this narrative? What is clear is that the ancient J2 sample is *not* anything similar to modern or ancient North Europeans, that much is clear which the paper states.

My take is that the contemporary Mid East, at least the Levant should be treated a similar way to the Iron Age Briton + Anglo-Saxon scenario. Differentiation is mostly apparent at the fine scale analysis level. Otherwise the components all look pretty similar in their breakdown, it doesn't mean they are the exact same tribes or individuals. Unfortunately we don't have any, or enough samples to perform this analysis in the Mid East.

Piquerobi
01-19-2016, 10:41 PM
The Near Eastern guy could even have been Jewish, who knows?

ADW_1981
01-19-2016, 10:44 PM
A scenario which I haven't seen anyone consider is that most of west-central Europe (UK, France, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Belgium) may have been "Welsh-like" or "Hinxton-like" from the Bronze Age to Iron Age. (Even BA Hungarian looked French) In this case, it wouldn't be unexpected that these U106, U152 guys are plotting with modern Welsh populations if the contemporaries on the western-central continent appeared the same.

Scandinavians and north Germans seem to have had a northern outlier population that resembles Finnish people and were large carriers of I1 YDNA. Not sure what this means from an archaeological or linguistics point of view though. It seems this ancestry is pulling them out of the "British", and possibly west-central European cluster.

When I see that the victims were beheaded, have a variety of non-L21 haplogroups, and one could have been a plausible Syrian, I tend to think of the series Spartacus. Perhaps Gladiators who refused to fight? Why else would a Syrian-like person be located in Britain?

evon
01-19-2016, 10:53 PM
Hope they can be uploaded onto Gedmatch fast, would love to check their segment matching to modern day peoples...

Agamemnon
01-19-2016, 11:02 PM
The Near Eastern guy could even be Jewish, who knows?

Possible, he could easily have been from Eastern Syria or Nabataea as well. There's a section discussing 3DRIF-26's geographical origin in the supplemental data.

Arbogan
01-19-2016, 11:20 PM
I don't follow. The paper wasn't able to solidly identify which contemporary Middle Eastern population the J2 fellow resembled the most, where as the other 6 samples solidly fit into a Iron Age British cluster. This doesn't mean the Middle East hasn't been subject to immigration, unless you are trying to push this narrative? What is clear is that the ancient J2 sample is *not* anything similar to modern or ancient North Europeans, that much is clear which the paper states.

My take is that the contemporary Mid East, at least the Levant should be treated a similar way to the Iron Age Briton + Anglo-Saxon scenario. Differentiation is mostly apparent at the fine scale analysis level. Otherwise the components all look pretty similar in their breakdown, it doesn't mean they are the exact same tribes or individuals. Unfortunately we don't have any, or enough samples to perform this analysis in the Mid East.

Based on historical knowledge of the geographic landscape this guy most likely came from the levant. During a time period that was pre-islamic. While by no means does this finding give a conclusive idea. It gives you a cue about the pre-islamic landscape of the levant. Which runs counter to this ludicrous narrative that there has been continous large-scale replacement of middle-eastern populations. Which always seem to empathize the Islamic conquest and the following time periods as crucial and fundamental in changing the entire genealogical landscape(or atleast this is implied) whenever this question is dwelved in.

My point is not that i disagree with the idea of immigration to the area. Only the scale which seems to be assumed without any actual evidence.

ADW_1981
01-19-2016, 11:34 PM
Based on historical knowledge of the geographic landscape this guy most likely came from the levant. During a time period that was pre-islamic. While by no means does this finding give a conclusive idea. It gives you a cue about the pre-islamic landscape of the levant. Which runs counter to this ludicrous narrative that there has been continous large-scale replacement of middle-eastern populations. Which always seem to empathize the Islamic conquest and the following time periods as crucial and fundamental in changing the entire genealogical landscape(or atleast this is implied) whenever this question is dwelved in.

My point is not that i disagree with the idea of immigration to the area. Only the scale which seems to be assumed without any actual evidence.

There could have been significant displacement, it doesn't mean the immigrants were largely different from the predecessors (ie: Kent being upwards of 40% Anglo-Saxon). You would need fine scale analysis similar to that performed in the study here, and the Hinxton paper. You'd also need Levant data representing indigenous and so-called "immigrant" skeletons from various periods.

MitchellSince1893
01-19-2016, 11:51 PM
That's exciting news about the Roman era U152 in Britain. Hopefully there will be further testing to see what subclade he belongs to. Also very interesting discovery of the two pre Anglo-Saxon U106.

Present day Yorkshire samples from FTDNA projects:

U152:
3 R-L2, 2 L20, 1 PF4363, 1 Z35, 1 Z49

U106:
1 R-CTS10893, 1 R-CTS2509, 1 R-FGC3861, 1 R-L164, 1 R-L477, 6 L48, 2 U198, 1 Z156, 1 R-Z18, 1 Z301, 2 Z326, 2 Z343, 1 Z8, 1 ZP8.

Maybe I missed it but what are the dates for the U106 and U152 samples? EDIT: Found it.
Seven ancient genomes are sampled from a cemetery in Roman York dated between the second and the fourth century AD, one from an earlier Yorkshire Iron-Age burial (210 BC–40 AD) and one from a later neighbouring Anglo-Saxon burial (650–910 AD).

So 7 samples: 100-400 AD.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-20-2016, 12:20 AM
and one could have been a plausible Syrian, I tend to think of the series Spartacus. Perhaps Gladiators who refused to fight? Why else would a Syrian-like person be located in Britain?

Maybe a wealthy merchant with a business deal gone awry ?
ha ha

Krefter
01-20-2016, 12:34 AM
When I see that the victims were beheaded, have a variety of non-L21 haplogroups, and one could have been a plausible Syrian, I tend to think of the series Spartacus. Perhaps Gladiators who refused to fight? Why else would a Syrian-like person be located in Britain?

It doesn't look like a hate and killing of foreigners by Britons. Isotope analysis confirms that at least 5/6 of the genetically British gladiators were born and raised in NorthEast England. They didn't have L21 but they were still Britons and from the same area as York and genetically Celtic-Britons.

MitchellSince1893
01-20-2016, 12:55 AM
They may have arrived with the Romans, or might date back to the Arras Culture of Yorkshire which has links to La Tene. Not sure if La Tene was in U106 areas of the time, but they were definitely in the U152 areas of Continental Europe.

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/images/LaTChariotburials.jpg

But the Batavians and Tungrians were Germanic tribes that made up some of the Roman Legions in Britain. They might be a source for both U152 and U106.

Also the IX Legion Hispana was stationed along the Rhine River in Germany and present day Austria and Hungary, before being stationed in York.

ArmandoR1b
01-20-2016, 12:56 AM
Hopefully there will be further testing to see what subclade he belongs to.

I'm sure further testing won't be done. 1x isn't great but it's all they are going to do. Alex Williamson and Richard Rocca might find some other mutations from the Fastq files at http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB11004

ADW_1981
01-20-2016, 12:57 AM
It doesn't look like a hate and killing of foreigners by Britons. Isotope analysis confirms that at least 5/6 of the genetically British gladiators were born and raised in NorthEast England. They didn't have L21 but they were still Britons and from the same area as York and genetically Celtic-Britons.

When I said Spartacus I was thinking 6 were Celtic or possibly Germanic "barbarians" as per Rome who fought as gladiators/prisoners. Due to the reach of Rome, perhaps a Syrian gladiator was in the mix. This is a fantasy story more than anything I realize... I didn't see if isotope analysis pinpointed them in NE England necessarily, although I may have missed it. It pinned them as most similar to IA Britons, or modern Welsh. We don't have any continental European skeletons from the same period so it's difficult to say if those men would appear as "Welsh" too.

R.Rocca
01-20-2016, 01:20 AM
It doesn't look like a hate and killing of foreigners by Britons. Isotope analysis confirms that at least 5/6 of the genetically British gladiators were born and raised in NorthEast England. They didn't have L21 but they were still Britons and from the same area as York and genetically Celtic-Britons.

To add, the best matching populations based on median IBS proportions for each of the three non-L21 samples makes it seem very unlikely they were anything but the descendants of Iron-Age Britons:

Sample: 6DRIF-3
Haplogroup: U106+
Best Matching Population: Ireland

Sample: 3DRIF-16
Haplogroup: U106+
Best Matching Population: Scotland

Sample: 6DRIF-22
Haplogroup: U152+
Best Matching Population: Wales

rms2
01-20-2016, 01:35 AM
It doesn't look like a hate and killing of foreigners by Britons. Isotope analysis confirms that at least 5/6 of the genetically British gladiators were born and raised in NorthEast England. They didn't have L21 but they were still Britons and from the same area as York and genetically Celtic-Britons.

6DRIF-21 was L21+, since DF63 is downstream of L21.

I'm not sure I would call them all Britons, because that might imply that they were all Celts. I think in this case Romano-Britons would be more correct.

rms2
01-20-2016, 01:40 AM
To add, the best matching populations based on median IBS proportions for each of the three non-L21 samples makes it seem very unlikely they were anything but the descendants of Iron-Age Britons:

Sample: 6DRIF-3
Haplogroup: U106+
Best Matching Population: Ireland

Sample: 3DRIF-16
Haplogroup: U106+
Best Matching Population: Scotland

Sample: 6DRIF-22
Haplogroup: U152+
Best Matching Population: Wales

It seems likely they were born and raised in Britain and had substantial British ancestry, but, IMHO, their y haplogroups make it likely that they descended in their y lines from non-Britons brought into Britain by the Romans, possibly as soldiers.

According to Supplementary Figure 12 on page 9 of the Supplementary Information, wasn't the Anglo-Saxon's best IBS matching population Ireland, followed by Wales? He could have had British maternal ancestry, as well.

Tomenable
01-20-2016, 01:53 AM
So what do we have - Celtic (pre-Anglo-Saxon) R1b-U106 and Anglo-Saxon I1-M253.

I have suggested already a long time ago, that U106 would be found in England before Anglo-Saxon times.

This destroys the myth that R1b-U106 is a genuinely and exclusively Germanic marker.

R.Rocca
01-20-2016, 01:53 AM
It seems likely they were born and raised in Britain and had substantial British ancestry, but, IMHO, their y haplogroups make it likely that they descended in their y lines from non-Britons brought into Britain by the Romans, possibly as soldiers.

I don't think this is a question of ones own opinion of Y-DNA... the data is saying that not only were they born in Britain, but also clearly pointing to their ancestors being from Britain as well. To say that men who match modern Irish, Scots, and Welsh are likely the descendants of non-Britons is completely counter to that data.

Tomenable
01-20-2016, 01:59 AM
It doesn't look like a hate and killing of foreigners by Britons. Isotope analysis confirms that at least 5/6 of the genetically British gladiators were born and raised in NorthEast England. They didn't have L21 but they were still Britons and from the same area as York and genetically Celtic-Britons.

Perhaps L21 was brought to North-East England only with migration of Gaelic Scots who founded the Dál Riata Kingdom... :)

In any case, now U106 looks more native in North-East England than L21 (and who would have expected this yesterday).

Generalissimo
01-20-2016, 01:59 AM
So what do we have - Celtic (pre-Anglo-Saxon) R1b-U106 and Anglo-Saxon I1-M253.

I have suggested already a long time ago, that U106 would be found in England before Anglo-Saxon times.

This destroys the myth that R1b-U106 is a genuinely and exclusively Germanic marker.

There's something eastern about these U106 samples. They show high IBS sharing with Lithuanians and Poles, and cluster east of the Anglo-Saxon on the West Eurasian PCA.

If I get their data, I'll check it out, but they might be something crazy like part descendants of Goths or Vandals.

rms2
01-20-2016, 02:02 AM
I don't think this is a question of ones own opinion of Y-DNA... the data is saying that not only were they born in Britain, but also clearly pointing to their ancestors being from Britain as well. To say that men who match modern Irish, Scots, and Welsh are likely the descendants of non-Britons is completely counter to that data.

Well, then you are going to have to argue that the Anglo-Saxon was an Iron Age Briton, as well, because his best IBS matching population was Ireland, followed by Wales.

It is not "completely counter to that data" to recognize both that U106 and U152 are not at all likely to be native British y haplogroups and that we know from history that the Romans imported soldiers into Britain from all over their Empire. One would have to disregard a lot of what we know to argue that these results are any sort of proof that U106 and U152 were of long standing among the native British population.

Tomenable
01-20-2016, 02:02 AM
but they might be something crazy like part descendants of Goths or Vandals.

Goths or Vandals in North-East Britain in 2nd-4th centuries AD and not "fresh" immigrants but locally born ??? No way.


these results are any sort of proof that U106 and U152 were of long standing among the native British population.

Why such strong denial ???

I've suggested before, that L21 was brought to Britain by Bell Beakers, and that later (but Pre-Saxon) immigrations brought U152 and U106.

This can also mean, that Celtic languages were brought to Britain and Ireland by U106 and / or U152 - while L21 were speakers of another, now extinct, Indo-European language. Remember, that until recently the mainstream theory was that Celtic expanded only in the Iron Age (!).

Generalissimo
01-20-2016, 02:05 AM
Goths or Vandals in North-East Britain in 2nd-4th centuries AD and not "fresh" immigrants but locally born ??? No way.

So how did they acquire their eastern affinities and why is it that they happen to be U106? Seems like quite a coincidence.

rms2
01-20-2016, 02:05 AM
Perhaps L21 was brought to North-East England only with migration of Gaelic Scots who founded the Dál Riata Kingdom... :)

In any case, now U106 looks more native in North-East England than L21 (and who would have expected this yesterday).

Come on. We are talking Roman remains here. You are ignoring the history of Roman Britain. The Romans imported a lot of foreign auxiliaries who are likely to have bred with native British women.

These are not Bronze Age remains. Even the Anglo-Saxon gets a best IBS match with Ireland followed by Wales.

R.Rocca
01-20-2016, 02:06 AM
Goths or Vandals in North-East Britain in 2nd-4th centuries AD and not "fresh" immigrants but locally born ??? No way.

To boot, the Roman border was nowhere near those areas.... or am I missing some Roman invasion of Lithuania?

Tomenable
01-20-2016, 02:08 AM
Even the Anglo-Saxon gets a best IBS match with Ireland followed by Wales.

Maybe simply because he was an acculturated "Germanized" Briton, or a genetically mixed (part-Briton) man.

We have previously seen evidence of acculturation and intermarriage from Oakington cemetery (400s-500s).

R.Rocca
01-20-2016, 02:08 AM
Well, then you are going to have to argue that the Anglo-Saxon was an Iron Age Briton, as well, because his IBS matching population was Ireland, followed by Wales.

It is not "completely counter to that data" to recognize both that U106 and U152 are not at all likely to be native British y haplogroups and that we know from history that the Romans imported soldiers into Britain from all over their Empire. One would have to disregard a lot of what we know to argue that these results are any sort of proof that U106 and U152 were of long standing among the native British population.

Sorry, but who said anything about "long standing"? I'm talking about Belgae or La Tene, not Bell Beaker. We are talking about a difference of hundreds of years here, not thousands.

Tomenable
01-20-2016, 02:10 AM
So how did they acquire their eastern affinities and why is it that they happen to be U106? Seems like quite a coincidence.

Celts expanded westward into Britain from Central Europe (no matter if that was in the Bronze Age or only in the Iron Age).

So obviously they had eastern affinities (compared to descendants of earlier Beaker expansion living in Britain when Celts came).

Each new immigrants / invaders were doomed to have eastern affinities, unless they came to Britain from North America... :)

rms2
01-20-2016, 02:11 AM
Goths or Vandals in North-East Britain in 2nd-4th centuries AD and not "fresh" immigrants but locally born ??? No way.



Why such strong denial ???

I've suggested before, that L21 was brought to Britain by Bell Beakers, and that later (but Pre-Saxon) immigrations brought U152 and U106.

This can also mean, that Celtic languages were brought to Britain and Ireland by U106 and / or U152 - while L21 were speakers of another, now extinct, Indo-European language. Remember, that until recently the mainstream theory was that Celtic expanded only in the Iron Age (!).

You're going overboard based on 2nd-4th century remains in a Roman context. These are not Bronze Age remains, and the Romans's use of foreign auxiliaries in Britain is well documented. All these men needed was a couple of generations or a few generations of maternal British ancestry to get IBS best matches like they did. As I said, even the Anglo-Saxon has Ireland and Wales as his best IBS matches.

rms2
01-20-2016, 02:13 AM
Sorry, but who said anything about "long standing"? I'm talking about Belgae or La Tene, not Bell Beaker. We are talking about a difference of hundreds of years here, not thousands.

Ah, well, I misunderstood you then, although I think the U106 guys are more likely to be the descendants of Roman auxilia from the Low Countries or Germany.

Generalissimo
01-20-2016, 02:16 AM
To boot, the Roman border was nowhere near those areas.... or am I missing some Roman invasion of Lithuania?

Lithuanians are just a proxy here. Their ancestors may have come from near the Black Sea or the Danube.

Wealthy man in Roman Gloucester was migrant Goth (http://www.archaeologyuk.org/ba/ba113/news.shtml)

rms2
01-20-2016, 02:17 AM
Maybe simply because he was an acculturated "Germanized" Briton, or a genetically mixed (part-Briton) man.

We have previously seen evidence of acculturation and intermarriage from Oakington cemetery (400s-500s).

That's what I think: he had maternal British ancestry.

And that is what I think is true for the others, as well, and that finding U106 and U152 in a Roman context in Britain is not really all that earth shaking.

Tomenable
01-20-2016, 02:19 AM
What about possible Belgae connection ???

Tomenable
01-20-2016, 02:22 AM
Those men indeed had some "eastern affinities" - higher affinities with Lithuanians and Poles, than with Germans and Austrians:

Figure 2: Combined percentile scores of modern European samples ranked by IBS to the Roman York genotypes:

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/images/ncomms10326-f2.jpg

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/images/ncomms10326-f2.jpg

Generalissimo
01-20-2016, 02:23 AM
Each new immigrants / invaders were doomed to have eastern affinities, unless they came to Britain from North America... :)

And the others who clearly aren't of North African origin are lacking this eastern affinity because?

Tomenable
01-20-2016, 02:25 AM
^^ Because their ancestors came several centuries earlier than ancestors of those with eastern affinities, perhaps?

MitchellSince1893
01-20-2016, 02:38 AM
What about possible Belgae connection ???

Maybe but Yorkshire is north of the traditional Belgic tribal areas in England. I would be more inclined to go with the Parisi tribe which has been connected to the Arras/La Tene Culture in York and possibly the Parisi tribe in Gaul.

As to the mathematics of a Roman Soldier from a U106 or U152 area of Western Europe being the source.

The Romans entered York circa 70 AD.

70 AD Generation 1: Roman soldier from U106/U152 area of Europe marries native Briton woman: 50% Continental 50% Briton
100 AD Generation 2: 25% Continental son has son with native Briton woman
130 AD Generation 3: 12.5% Continental grandson has son with native Briton woman
160 AD Generation 4: 6.25% Continental great grandson has son with native Briton woman
190 AD Generation 5: 3.13% Continental 2 great grandson has son with native Briton woman
220 AD Generation 6: 1.56% Continental 3 great grandson has son with native Briton woman
250 AD Generation 7: .78% Continental 4 great grandson has son with native Briton woman

Thus it would be helpful if we could narrow down the age of these samples. Were they born closer to 100 AD or 400 AD? If 100 AD then we may expect to see significant non British DNA if it's from a Roman source.

And yes I understand that we don't inherit autosomal dna as neatly and evenly as described above.

https://australianwargamer.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/roman_invasion_of_britain_map.jpg

rms2
01-20-2016, 02:53 AM
There was a major Roman legionary fortress at Eboracum (York), which was a provincial capital and the largest city in northern Britain.

MitchellSince1893
01-20-2016, 03:16 AM
I'm sure further testing won't be done. 1x isn't great but it's all they are going to do. Alex Williamson and Richard Rocca might find some other mutations from the Fastq files at http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB11004

Being a descendant of U152 Britons, I do hope the U152 sample is added to gedmatch's Archaic DNA matches tool. I would love to see if I share any autosomal segments.

R.Rocca
01-20-2016, 03:24 AM
That's what I think: he had maternal British ancestry.

And that is what I think is true for the others, as well, and that finding U106 and U152 in a Roman context in Britain is not really all that earth shaking.

The U152 did not look "Germanic" and could have been Belgae or La Tene... then again, it could be that the Gaulish slaves from France could have looked pretty similar to modern day British and Irish populations.

ADW_1981
01-20-2016, 03:49 AM
Is the raw data readily available? Anyone think the L11+ samples might actually be DF27+ or something possibly downstream of it?

ADW_1981
01-20-2016, 03:52 AM
The U152 did not look "Germanic" and could have been Belgae or La Tene... then again, it could be that the Gaulish slaves from France could have looked pretty similar to modern day British and Irish populations.

This was my point earlier. Without a equivalent sample from Belgium, western Germany, or NW France, isn't it a bit hasty to assume all 6 men were born in Roman Britain?

ADW_1981
01-20-2016, 03:58 AM
There was a major Roman legionary fortress at Eboracum (York), which was a provincial capital and the largest city in northern Britain.

Any thought as to why 7 men would have had their heads systemically lopped off? That's deliberate, not a war injury. Unless Rome was known for doing that to fallen soldiers?

parasar
01-20-2016, 04:22 AM
"“This Near Eastern chap really, really stands out. He was from somewhere arid and hot,” she says. “Where he fits best is the Nile Valley or an environment like that—we can’t pinpoint it exactly, but somewhere in the Near East.” ... There’s even a Roman burial from York that contained a woman from Africa wearing an ivory bracelet.
...
The men—archaeologists found 80 in all—were no strangers to violence. Many of the skeletons showed signs of healed injuries. One had even been bitten by a large predator, perhaps a lion or bear. Strangest of all, about half were decapitated at or just after death and buried with their detached heads. Based on their skeletons, archaeologists could tell all of them were under 45, taller than average and well-muscled. “One explanation,” Bradley says, “is that they were gladiators or Roman soldiers.” ...
analysis of chemical signatures in the bones and teeth of other skeletons from the cemetery had determined that some of the men grew up in colder climates, perhaps Germany or further east in continental Europe. The chemical evidence also indicated some of them ate millet grain—a crop that was unavailable in Britain—as children."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/01/160119-gladiator-headless-skeletons-dna/

lgmayka
01-20-2016, 04:32 AM
"The chemical evidence also indicated some of them ate millet grain—a crop that was unavailable in Britain—as children."
This research paper (https://etd.ohiolink.edu/ap:10:0::NO:10:P10_ACCESSION_NUM:osu1330969837) by Reitsema claims:
---
Human samples show evidence for millet consumption, a uniquely Slavic cultigen in Europe that may be useful in studying Slavic migrations.
---

Reitsema (with Kozłowski) also writes (https://www.academia.edu/5301065/Diet_and_Society_in_Poland_before_the_State_Stable _Isotope_Evidence_from_a_Wielbark_Population_2nd_c ._AD_):
---
Millet consumption among Wielbark and early medieval Polish populations represents a potentially significant continuity between the Roman era and the medieval period in Poland.
---

Gravetto-Danubian
01-20-2016, 05:36 AM
Assuming they really had continental ancestry, some of the individuals might look "eastern " because of significant turnover in late / post-Roman Central and even western Europe- including northern Gaul and parts of Frisia (which were depopulated in the 4th century), as was much of southern & eastern Germany.

These areas were then filled by more 'southwestern' back-migrations. Eg there was active Empire-sanctioned resettlement from southern Gaul -> northern Gaul in 4th century, and Middle Francia Germans -> eastern Germany from the 10th. So modern Germans largely descend from the Rhine-Germani forebears rather than Elbe-Germani and East Germani, and modern French proportionately more from southern Gaul than the north (although they received mild admixture from Germanic Franks and Visigoths)

vettor
01-20-2016, 06:21 AM
where these Roman soldiers ?!

there was only 3 legions ever in York, these are noted as: ( 1 was part legion )

The 6th ( origins in Egypt and the levant ) arrived in York in 111AD to replace the 9th

The 9th ( origins on the upper Rhine ) arrived in Britain in 43AD..........lost many men in battles in 63AD and troop replacements came from the 22nd Legion. Arrived in York between 70 and 77AD. Went into Scotland in 111AD ..................never recorded as ever leaving Britain.

the 22nd ( origins Galatia, Anatolia) ............never went to Britain, fought the parthians....but some elements went to Britain to reinforce ( top up ) the 9th


These beheading look to me as a soldiers death ( execution ) due to some great military catastrophe.

IMO , I cannot see these as Gladiator deaths ............they where usually buried together in that's days gladiatorial games.

vettor
01-20-2016, 06:29 AM
Ah, well, I misunderstood you then, although I think the U106 guys are more likely to be the descendants of Roman auxilia from the Low Countries or Germany.

I believe anywhere between Vindelici tribes of south germany to Noricum tribes of Austria where these U106 originate ................IIRC there is still 15% of U106 in Austria this day

ffoucart
01-20-2016, 07:15 AM
Assuming they really had continental ancestry, some of the individuals might look "eastern " because of significant turnover in late / post-Roman Central and even western Europe- including northern Gaul and parts of Frisia (which were depopulated in the 4th century), as was much of southern & eastern Germany.

These areas were then filled by more 'southwestern' back-migrations. Eg there was active Empire-sanctioned resettlement from southern Gaul -> northern Gaul in 4th century

If I'm agree about depopulation in post IIId century Roman Empire, I never read something like a re-settlement of Northern Gaul from Southern Gaul, except locally.

What is true however, is incidence on population of the re-location of the Roman center of power on the Rhine (with some migrants from Southern Europe).

On the Litus Saxonicum and around, the new settlements are from Northern Europe (Saxons, Franks, Goths as "Letes" or "Foederati").

Gravetto-Danubian
01-20-2016, 07:31 AM
If I'm agree about depopulation in post IIId century Roman Empire, I never read something like a re-settlement of Northern Gaul from Southern Gaul, except locally.

What is true however, is incidence on population of the re-location of the Roman center of power on the Rhine (with some migrants from Southern Europe).

On the Litus Saxonicum and around, the new settlements are from Northern Europe (Saxons, Franks, Goths as "Letes" or "Foederati").

Yes, of course, the general teaching we've grown up with is that any new settler - laeti and Franks - were from the north.

Although many were, the growing archaeological evidence analysed in a comparative manner from Gaul and beyond in "barbarian" Frisia and Frankia suggests that the bulk of finds at frontier sites like Gennep, eg, have southern provenance. These mixed communities came to be known as "Franks" - although naturally the name is first attested beyond the Rhine. (hence the precipitous take-over of Gaul by the 'Franks' - they were already there - based north of the Loire, metalsmiths, settlers, and a large component of the Roman Gallic comitanses. To the central administration in Italy, they were barbarian interlopers, but from their perspective, they simply wished to rule their own roost in place of an increasingly ineffective but heavy handed central
bureaucracy).

‚terra non est‘ Zentralsiedlungen der Völkerwanderungszeit im Maas-Rhein-Gebiet. Frans Theuws

Shaikorth
01-20-2016, 07:54 AM
Maybe simply because he was an acculturated "Germanized" Briton, or a genetically mixed (part-Briton) man.

We have previously seen evidence of acculturation and intermarriage from Oakington cemetery (400s-500s).

Mixed is possible, but his closest populations outside the British Isles are Norwegians and Finns which isn't the case for other samples, including the ones with R1b-U106. I think that rules out the germanized full Briton. I1 too, perhaps not absent but certainly rare in pre-Saxon Britain.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-20-2016, 08:16 AM
According to this article, there were not half a dozen beheaded "gladiators" in this burial but around 80. It seems they were buried with their heads, which seems unlikely if due to some sort of massacre by local tribes. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi15aOI9rfKAhXCOBQKHQ8lBP0QqQIIHzAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibtimes.co.uk%2Fone-yorks-decapitated-roman-gladiators-came-middle-east-1538837&usg=AFQjCNErbAbaQERSjZTRFlMdApjhXsKaIg&sig2=kP-7bGtGvCaNC3uvBPQ5-Q&bvm=bv.112064104,d.ZWU
This is an interesting article on Roman period after- death decapitation as part of a ritual rather than as punishment. With around 80 such burials (heads in place), maybe it's more of a ritual practice associated with a long period of gladiatorial combat? https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi4tKTU9LfKAhXD6xQKHd_lDeQQFggfMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbonesdontlie.wordpress.com%2F201 2%2F07%2F10%2Falas-poor-yorick-headless-romano-british-burials%2F&usg=AFQjCNGJMicFg1rsAmBHn2pEY7g_hJAdhg&sig2=b6ZdjlicZ088UreYL6HWDg
I've been a bit dubious for a while that U106 broadly came to Britain with the Saxons, but on the other hand this could just reflect specific local circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised though if the population of Britain during this period was more diverse than we sometimes think.

vettor
01-20-2016, 08:21 AM
The paper says that the bodies fit the profile of gladiators buried in a different cemetery or they could have been Roman soldiers..either way, it states they were of British origin.

I do not know how they claim what you state ..................Roman Legionaries where engineers, fort builders, moat diggers, tree cutters, etc etc...........their body build was bigger than any gladiator

vettor
01-20-2016, 08:23 AM
According to this article, there were not half a dozen beheaded "gladiators" in this burial but around 80. It seems they were buried with their heads, which seems unlikely if due to some sort of massacre by local tribes. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi15aOI9rfKAhXCOBQKHQ8lBP0QqQIIHzAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibtimes.co.uk%2Fone-yorks-decapitated-roman-gladiators-came-middle-east-1538837&usg=AFQjCNErbAbaQERSjZTRFlMdApjhXsKaIg&sig2=kP-7bGtGvCaNC3uvBPQ5-Q&bvm=bv.112064104,d.ZWU
This is an interesting article on Roman period after- death decapitation as part of a ritual rather than as punishment. If I'm reading it correctly this was more of a "British" practice than Roman. With around 80 such burials (heads in place), maybe it's more of a ritual practice than finishing off gladiators, soldier massacre or punishment. But why so many in one place? https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi4tKTU9LfKAhXD6xQKHd_lDeQQFggfMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbonesdontlie.wordpress.com%2F201 2%2F07%2F10%2Falas-poor-yorick-headless-romano-british-burials%2F&usg=AFQjCNGJMicFg1rsAmBHn2pEY7g_hJAdhg&sig2=b6ZdjlicZ088UreYL6HWDg
I've been a bit dubious for a while that U106 broadly came to Britain with the Saxons, but on the other hand this could just reflect specific local circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised though if the population of Britain during this period was more diverse than we sometimes think.

there is a symbolic reference in placing the head at the feet in a grave

vettor
01-20-2016, 08:29 AM
there is a symbolic reference in placing the head at the feet in a grave

some info

decapitated burials are intriguing. Sometimes the head is placed back in its correct anatomical position; sometimes it is placed between the legs or near the feet. Occasionally an extra head is supplied for an otherwise completely normal burial. In some instances, the neck vertebrae show no evidence of cutting, suggesting that the head was removed from a skeleton that had been allowed to decompose fully. Again, a fear of ghosts walking may be the best explanation for burials that appear 'respectful' in all other ways.

Execution by beheading was a common punishment in the Roman world - although one typically reserved for the 'better class' of criminal, such as Roman citizens. Some decapitated bodies found during excavation do suggest this form of execution. Three Roman decapitated bodies were found this year in Cambridge, including one with contemporary sword cuts around his head. The blow that finished him off was aimed from behind. At Dunstable, an excavation in the 1960s produced eleven decapitations that looked to the excavators like executions with the sword blow aimed at kneeling figures from behind.

vettor
01-20-2016, 08:36 AM
At least we know at that time the Roman where still pagans

Pagan burials continue to have grave goods of a similar type to the earlier cremations - drinking and eating vessels, sometimes personal ornaments and dress accessories, coins in the mouth or on the eyes, and hobnail boots on the feet. Pagan cemeteries often include unusual burials. Most late Roman inhumations are extended on their backs (supine), but occasionally some are found in a prone (face down) position, or on their side. Decapitation with the head placed at the feet is another relatively common finding. Complete burials without a body are sometimes found in cemeteries, and these were probably cenotaphs to the memory of a lost individual. Tombstones mentioning such events are known. Status is interpreted from the wealth displayed in the grave goods, and from accompanying structures such as enclosing gullies around a grave or internal steps inside the grave pit.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-20-2016, 09:04 AM
This aDNA data coming from Britain has certainly helped dispel some theories about the Anglo-Saxonization of England, such it being a 'cultural re-orientation' (as if Britons one day woke up and decided to act Germanic because they deemed it 'fashionable'). I think also questionable was oft-quoted ideas about some ill-defined 'elite conquest' by Saxon merceneries, although they indeed might have begun as such.

The figures of 30 - 40 % seem real to me, and would suggest immigration of families - even entire communities (eg see: Approaches to material culture and social dynamics of the Migration Period in eastern England- by C Skull). As captured by Gildas (albeit through the biased lens of a Christian Briton), as evidenced by significant depopulation in western Jutland, for example. There must have been some political and linguistic to-ing and fro-ing between 450 AD, and the heptarchic picture we get in the late 6th century.

The only question is - where are the 'Britons' in late 5th , early 6th cemeteries. I suspect they re-grouped and fortified south of the Thames, and adopted furnished inhumation burials seen throughout post-Roman Europe.

Radboud
01-20-2016, 09:30 AM
Assuming they really had continental ancestry, some of the individuals might look "eastern " because of significant turnover in late / post-Roman Central and even western Europe- including northern Gaul and parts of Frisia (which were depopulated in the 4th century), as was much of southern & eastern Germany.


Dutch Frisia was repopulated by migrants from the north(NW Germany) tough. I don't think they were significantly different than the previous inhabitants.

Tomenable
01-20-2016, 09:35 AM
Which individual(s) = the one(s) who grew up in colder climate, ate millet grain as children, and were similar to Lithuanians/Poles ???

Dubhthach
01-20-2016, 09:37 AM
There was a major Roman legionary fortress at Eboracum (York), which was a provincial capital and the largest city in northern Britain.

One of it's claim to fame is that it was where the Constantine (the Great) was acclaimed as Emperor by the army, he then had to head off to Italy to fight Maxentius at Battle of the Milvian Bridge, perhaps the most pivotal event in European history (hint: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Constantine_the_Great_statue_outside_York_Minster_-_DSC07907.JPG/1024px-Constantine_the_Great_statue_outside_York_Minster_-_DSC07907.JPG

Dubhthach
01-20-2016, 09:38 AM
The U152 did not look "Germanic" and could have been Belgae or La Tene... then again, it could be that the Gaulish slaves from France could have looked pretty similar to modern day British and Irish populations.

We really need to start getting some aDNA from France that's later than Neolithic!

Krefter
01-20-2016, 09:46 AM
"“This Near Eastern chap really, really stands out. He was from somewhere arid and hot,” she says. “Where he fits best is the Nile Valley or an environment like that—we can’t pinpoint it exactly, but somewhere in the Near East.” ... There’s even a Roman burial from York that contained a woman from Africa wearing an ivory bracelet.
...
The men—archaeologists found 80 in all—were no strangers to violence. Many of the skeletons showed signs of healed injuries. One had even been bitten by a large predator, perhaps a lion or bear. Strangest of all, about half were decapitated at or just after death and buried with their detached heads. Based on their skeletons, archaeologists could tell all of them were under 45, taller than average and well-muscled. “One explanation,” Bradley says, “is that they were gladiators or Roman soldiers.” ...
analysis of chemical signatures in the bones and teeth of other skeletons from the cemetery had determined that some of the men grew up in colder climates, perhaps Germany or further east in continental Europe. The chemical evidence also indicated some of them ate millet grain—a crop that was unavailable in Britain—as children."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/01/160119-gladiator-headless-skeletons-dna/

One was consistent with being from continental Europe and one was consistent with being from Africa or Levant. The rest were consistent with being born and raised in NorthEast England. I read the isotope analysis part of the Supp. Info.

Heber
01-20-2016, 11:30 AM
"Sample 3DRIF*26 is clearly an exception, both in terms of autosomal variation as in the Y-*chromosome lineage it presents (J2), common in the Middle East, Caucasus, Balkans and Italy and attributed to neolithic demic migrations or to seafaring Phoenicians".

Or descendent of captives from the Punic Wars. I imagine some of the the gladiators were captives from skirmishes against the Irish, Scottish and Welsh. The story of Ben Hur comes to mind.

Tomenable
01-20-2016, 11:33 AM
Assuming they really had continental ancestry, some of the individuals might look "eastern " because of significant turnover in late / post-Roman Central and even western Europe- including northern Gaul and parts of Frisia (which were depopulated in the 4th century), as was much of southern & eastern Germany.

These areas were then filled by more 'southwestern' back-migrations. Eg there was active Empire-sanctioned resettlement from southern Gaul -> northern Gaul in 4th century, and Middle Francia Germans -> eastern Germany from the 10th. So modern Germans largely descend from the Rhine-Germani forebears rather than Elbe-Germani and East Germani, and modern French proportionately more from southern Gaul than the north (although they received mild admixture from Germanic Franks and Visigoths)

What about millet grains, though ???

rms2
01-20-2016, 12:25 PM
According to this article, there were not half a dozen beheaded "gladiators" in this burial but around 80. It seems they were buried with their heads, which seems unlikely if due to some sort of massacre by local tribes. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi15aOI9rfKAhXCOBQKHQ8lBP0QqQIIHzAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibtimes.co.uk%2Fone-yorks-decapitated-roman-gladiators-came-middle-east-1538837&usg=AFQjCNErbAbaQERSjZTRFlMdApjhXsKaIg&sig2=kP-7bGtGvCaNC3uvBPQ5-Q&bvm=bv.112064104,d.ZWU
This is an interesting article on Roman period after- death decapitation as part of a ritual rather than as punishment. With around 80 such burials (heads in place), maybe it's more of a ritual practice associated with a long period of gladiatorial combat? https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi4tKTU9LfKAhXD6xQKHd_lDeQQFggfMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbonesdontlie.wordpress.com%2F201 2%2F07%2F10%2Falas-poor-yorick-headless-romano-british-burials%2F&usg=AFQjCNGJMicFg1rsAmBHn2pEY7g_hJAdhg&sig2=b6ZdjlicZ088UreYL6HWDg
I've been a bit dubious for a while that U106 broadly came to Britain with the Saxons, but on the other hand this could just reflect specific local circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised though if the population of Britain during this period was more diverse than we sometimes think.

I think we have to remember that these are Roman burials, and even though most of these men were born and raised locally, it is likely the Roman population was not representative of the native British population and was more diverse.

Given the distribution of U106 in Britain and its apparent English connection, the Anglo-Saxons remain the best explanation.

Heber
01-20-2016, 01:17 PM
How many aDNA genomes are we looking at from Ireland and Britian now?

4 from Ireland (1 x Neolithic, 3 x BA -- Rathlin), 9 from England (York -- 1 x pre-roman Iron age, 7 Roman period, 1 x Anglo-Saxon) in this study, 10 from Eastern England (3 x Iron age including Hinxton, 7 Anglo-Saxon period). Is that right?

That puts us at a total of 23 aDNA genomes, not bad going! Now we just need some from Wales and Scotland! It's gonna be an interesting year ahead I bet.

With 4 from Ireland, that leaves 26 more to go from the 30 reported samples. There is some great material coming from Dan Bradley's TCD lab and much quicker than I expected. 2016 is shaping out to be a great year for aDNA.

"Professor Dan Bradley, from Trinity, said: “Whichever the identity of the enigmatic headless Romans from York, our sample of the genomes of seven of them, when combined with isotopic evidence, indicate six to be of British origin and one to have origins in the Middle East. It confirms the cosmopolitan character of the Roman Empire even at its most northerly extent.”
PhD Researcher and lead author, Rui Martiniano, from Trinity, said: “This is the first refined genomic evidence for far-reaching ancient mobility and also the first snapshot of British genomes in the early centuries AD, indicating continuity with an Iron Age sample before the migrations of the Anglo-Saxon period.”
The Trinity College team also recently published the first prehistoric Irish genome."

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-20-2016, 01:33 PM
What about millet grains, though ???

Couldn't it have been imported? The Romans seemed to import other things.
I'm not saying the Saxons didn't contribute significantly to U106 in Britain, just possibly there may have been earlier contributors.

northkerry
01-20-2016, 01:38 PM
Couldn't it have been imported? The Romans seemed to import other things.
I'm not saying the Saxons didn't contribute significantly to U106 in Britain, just possibly there may have been earlier contributors.

All of the R1b Romans belonged to blood group "O" and Drif-16 had rs2228479 GA.

Heber
01-20-2016, 01:47 PM
British population history has been shaped by a series of immigrations, including the early Anglo-Saxon migrations after 400 CE. It remains an open question how these events affected the genetic composition of the current British population. Here, we present whole-genome sequences from 10 individuals excavated close to Cambridge in the East of England, ranging from the late Iron Age to the middle Anglo-Saxon period. By analysing shared rare variants with hundreds of modern samples from Britain and Europe, we estimate that on average the contemporary East English population derives 38% of its ancestry from Anglo-Saxon migrations. We gain further insight with a new method, rarecoal, which infers population history and identifies fine-scale genetic ancestry from rare variants. Using rarecoal we find that the Anglo-Saxon samples are closely related to modern Dutch and Danish populations, while the Iron Age samples share ancestors with multiple Northern European populations including Britain.

Schiffels, S. et al. Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon genomes from East England reveal British migration history. Nat. Commun. 7:10408 doi: 10.1038/ncomms10408 (2016).

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10408/full/ncomms10408.html

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2016-01/20/genetic-analysis-ancient-british-migration

ArmandoR1b
01-20-2016, 02:27 PM
Is the raw data readily available? Anyone think the L11+ samples might actually be DF27+ or something possibly downstream of it?

It is available in Fastq format. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6263-Genomic-signals-of-migration-and-continuity-in-Britain-before-the-Anglo-Saxons&p=134706&viewfull=1#post134706

Agamemnon
01-20-2016, 02:28 PM
We really need to start getting some aDNA from France that's later than Neolithic!

I heard Gaulish remains were currently being tested, this is just a rumour though.

Shaikorth
01-20-2016, 02:29 PM
British population history has been shaped by a series of immigrations, including the early Anglo-Saxon migrations after 400 CE. It remains an open question how these events affected the genetic composition of the current British population. Here, we present whole-genome sequences from 10 individuals excavated close to Cambridge in the East of England, ranging from the late Iron Age to the middle Anglo-Saxon period. By analysing shared rare variants with hundreds of modern samples from Britain and Europe, we estimate that on average the contemporary East English population derives 38% of its ancestry from Anglo-Saxon migrations. We gain further insight with a new method, rarecoal, which infers population history and identifies fine-scale genetic ancestry from rare variants. Using rarecoal we find that the Anglo-Saxon samples are closely related to modern Dutch and Danish populations, while the Iron Age samples share ancestors with multiple Northern European populations including Britain.

Schiffels, S. et al. Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon genomes from East England reveal British migration history. Nat. Commun. 7:10408 doi: 10.1038/ncomms10408 (2016).

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10408/full/ncomms10408.html

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2016-01/20/genetic-analysis-ancient-british-migration

One thing that I noticed here is that while they say Anglo-Saxon portion in Britain is similar using either Dutch or Finnish outgroup for the estimation, table S4 actually shows this is only really true for East and Wales. Scotland's Anglo-Saxon portion is about 10% lower using Finnish outgroup.

Bollox79
01-20-2016, 02:43 PM
There is some evidence that the 9th Legion Hispana (or a detachment) may have been in the Netherlands circa 120 AD: "This theory fell out of favour among some scholars as successive inscriptions of IX Hispana were found in the site of the legionary base at Nijmegen (Netherlands), suggesting that the Ninth may have been based there from ca. 120, later than the legion's supposed annihilation in Britain."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_IX_Hispana

R.Rocca
01-20-2016, 02:45 PM
The U152 did not look "Germanic" and could have been Belgae or La Tene... then again, it could be that the Gaulish slaves from France could have looked pretty similar to modern day British and Irish populations.

Excavated cart and chariot burials of the Iron Age Arras Culture, which had burial practices more similar to the continent's La Tene Culture than those of Iron Age Britain (Map by John T. Koch)

http://www.worldhistory.biz/uploads/posts/2015-08/243w-5.jpg

parasar
01-20-2016, 02:58 PM
Couldn't it have been imported? The Romans seemed to import other things.
I'm not saying the Saxons didn't contribute significantly to U106 in Britain, just possibly there may have been earlier contributors.

I doubt it as the millet was consumed when they were young.
The 80 odd samples look like a clear case of gladiators (soldiers should hardly show bite marks from a lion/bear) representing fit well-built locals and folk selected from all over the empire. IMO, this sample set speaks more to the vast diversity existing in the Roman empire than to any local diversity existing in England.

Agamemnon
01-20-2016, 03:09 PM
Excavated cart and chariot burials of the Iron Age Arras Culture, which had burial practices more similar to the continent's La Tene Culture than those of Iron Age Britain (Map by John T. Koch)

http://www.worldhistory.biz/uploads/posts/2015-08/243w-5.jpg

I think it likely that the bulk of U152 arrived in the Isles during the Iron Age and Late Bronze Age, so the Arras culture is a valuable contender.

MitchellSince1893
01-20-2016, 03:29 PM
Excavated cart and chariot burials of the Iron Age Arras Culture, which had burial practices more similar to the continent's La Tene Culture than those of Iron Age Britain (Map by John T. Koch)

7380

Driffield Terrace archaeological site superimposed for reference (click on picture). 20 miles West of Arras site, 17 miles NNE of Ferrybridge site.


I think it likely that the bulk of U152 arrived in the Isles during the Iron Age and Late Bronze Age, so the Arras culture is a valuable contender. I would tend to agree as it pertains to the majority of U152 in Britain. However, I'm inclined to give more weight to the Roman era when we are speaking about U152 near Hadrian's and the Antonine Walls. Having said that, I presently don't see any reason the U152 sample in this study couldn't have been the paternal descendant of the early Roman era source stationed in York...assuming a few generations have passed and intermarriage with locals.

ADW_1981
01-20-2016, 03:39 PM
It is available in Fastq format. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6263-Genomic-signals-of-migration-and-continuity-in-Britain-before-the-Anglo-Saxons&p=134706&viewfull=1#post134706

I downloaded 1/4 of one of the specimens and it was about 5 gigs. Any idea if this can be run through a program? I opened it in a custom text editor but it was purely strings of bases, I couldn't see any nomenclature that I might be able to look named SNPs. I'm in over my head, I just thought I would take a look....

jdean
01-20-2016, 04:16 PM
I doubt it as the millet was consumed when they were young.
The 80 odd samples look like a clear case of gladiators (soldiers should hardly show bite marks from a lion/bear) representing fit well-built locals and folk selected from all over the empire. IMO, this sample set speaks more to the vast diversity existing in the Roman empire than to any local diversity existing in England.

I think the 'Pairwise identity-by-state rank correlations' table is a bit too close for these folk to have been dragged in from across the Empire for entertainment purposes ?

7381

Bollox79
01-20-2016, 04:32 PM
Concerning the ritual of severing the head...

Both the Greeks and Romans found the Celtic decapitation practices shocking and the latter put an end to them when Celtic regions came under their control.[46]

According to Paul Jacobsthal, "Amongst the Celts the human head was venerated above all else, since the head was to the Celt the soul, centre of the emotions as well as of life itself, a symbol of divinity and of the powers of the other-world."[47] Arguments for a Celtic cult of the severed head include the many sculptured representations of severed heads in La Tène carvings, and the surviving Celtic mythology, which is full of stories of the severed heads of heroes and the saints who carry their own severed heads, right down to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, where the Green Knight picks up his own severed head after Gawain has struck it off, just as St. Denis carried his head to the top of Montmartre.

A further example of this regeneration after beheading lies in the tales of Connemara's St. Feichin, who after being beheaded by Viking pirates carried his head to the Holy Well on Omey Island and on dipping the head into the well placed it back upon his neck and was restored to full health.

Bollox79
01-20-2016, 04:38 PM
more Roman era decapitations... this time around London! https://www.sciencenews.org/article/skulls-ancient-london-suggest-ritual-decapitations

rms2
01-20-2016, 04:42 PM
I think the 'Pairwise identity-by-state rank correlations' table is a bit too close for these folk to have been dragged in from across the Empire for entertainment purposes ?

7381

I don't think there is much doubt that those R1b guys were born and raised in Britain. I think it's their y lines that are exotic (in terms of Britain at that time anyway) in the case of the two U106 men at least, and that may be the case with the U152 man, as well, although he could have been a member of the Parisii tribe.

More ancient samples from Britain extending back from the Roman period to the Bronze Age and the Neolithic would provide the answers.

ArmandoR1b
01-20-2016, 05:00 PM
I downloaded 1/4 of one of the specimens and it was about 5 gigs. Any idea if this can be run through a program? I opened it in a custom text editor but it was purely strings of bases, I couldn't see any nomenclature that I might be able to look named SNPs. I'm in over my head, I just thought I would take a look....

http://www.y-str.org/2015/08/srafastq-to-bam-kit.html

avalon
01-20-2016, 05:01 PM
There's been a lot of interpretation in this thread that the Romano-Britons had recent continental origins but it doesn't look like the authors agree.

They have said that 6 of the 7 Romano-Britons are clearly indigenous Britons in their genetic signal and are similar to the Iron Age Briton (suggesting continuity) and that Iron Age and Roman era Britons show closest affinity to the modern Welsh. This is of no surprise to me and other Welsh people, it has always been blindingly obvious that the modern Welsh speaking Welsh are the best proxy for Ancient Britons. The clue has always been the fact that 500,000 people still speak Welsh, same as their ancestors 2000 years ago.

The authors also suggest that the Anglo Saxon differs from the Romano-Britons and the Iron Age Briton suggesting a profound migration impact from the Anglo-Saxons, again no big surprise there.

The only thing that did surprise me was the pre-Anglo Saxon U106 which suddenly makes this y-dna signature in Britain much more interesting!

Quotes from the paper's discussion:


Six of the seven individuals sampled here are clearly indigenous Britons in their genomic signal. When considered together, they are similar to the earlier Iron-Age sample, whilst the modern group with which they show closest affinity are Welsh. These six are also fixed for the Y-chromosome haplotype R1b-L51, which shows a cline in modern Britain, again with maximal frequencies among western populations. Interestingly, these people differ significantly from modern inhabitants of the same region (Yorkshire and Humberside) suggesting major genetic change in Eastern Britain within the last millennium and a half


The thesis that the mountainous regions of Wales may have held populations that are representative of earlier, more widely dispersed indigenous British genetic strata is not new, yet it finds some support in our analyses. The genomes of modern Scottish and Irish populations diverge from this group of early inhabitants of northern Britain, whereas their Welsh counterparts do not.

jdean
01-20-2016, 05:05 PM
I don't think there is much doubt that those R1b guys were born and raised in Britain. I think it's their y lines that are exotic (in terms of Britain at that time anyway) in the case of the two U106 men at least, and that may be the case with the U152 man, as well, although he could have been a member of the Parisii tribe.

More ancient samples from Britain extending back from the Roman period to the Bronze Age and the Neolithic would provide the answers.

I wounder what would happen if the Hinxton samples were added to this table.

Bollox79
01-20-2016, 05:07 PM
So called "Germani" among the Belgic tribes (and from areas where U106 is plentiful or at least some sub-groups are present) - the Tungri - who are documented as serving in the Roman Legions as early as 1st century AD. Hopefully we can see what sub-groups these 2 U106ers may be... since in my subgroup of DF98 (under Z381-Z156-Z304/306 and then DF98) called the King's Cluster and with the House of Wettin in it... and descendants of the Norman knight Odard de Dutton of Cheshire... the Wettin side of DF98 clusters in an area of SW Germany roughly with some samples from south of Wettin in Thuringia... then on my side of the DF98 group there are sub-groups who do not cluster as well in SW Germany... instead we have a couple old links to France... we suffer from a lack of testing in NE France and along the French side of the Rhine etc... also there is the S4004 I am a part of which clusters (currently) in the NE of England and Scotland... I also remembering reading that some of the Belgic tribes actually came from East of the Rhine early on... and if U106 took a Northern route... they could have been a southern expansion (thinking sub-clades of U198 and Z156 of U106 here) and the rest of U106 remained more Northern or "Germanic"... call it what you will as I think the situation is entirely too complicated to put labels on these guys... but that is why you see a split of U106 with some sub-clades (like L48 and Z18 being very Northern) and my DF98 group clustering around the Upper Rhine and in the Isles so far... and DF96 (brother clade of DF98) more common in the Low Countries and Ireland... more ancient remains tested for y-dna would be nice! Also keep in mind there appears to be a very early migration of Z156 guys to Ireland and then West Scotland...

Keep in mind I'm not claiming any of this is right... just some thoughts based on my knowledge of U106 and DF98, of which I am a member and have been for a while and have access to Dr. Iain McDonald's works on that group (he shares DF98 and a few sub-clades with me!).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungri

Tacitus in his Histories[16] notes two cohorts of Tungri in the civil war of 69 AD.

The Tungri were mentioned in the Notitia Dignitatum, an early fifth-century document, in which was transcribed every military and governmental post in the late Roman Empire. The document mentions the Tribune of the First Cohort of Tungri stationed at Vercovicium (now known as Housesteads, Northumberland) on Hadrian's Wall. The cohort was split in Hadrianic times to form a Second Cohort of Tungri as well, both cohorts 1000 men strong (military cohorts).

Bollox79
01-20-2016, 05:18 PM
In addition to the Tungrians... there were apparently Batavians in Britain serving in the Roman military... they were there in 43 AD... went back and revolted... then came back again lol... http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk/exhibition/people-1.shtml

MitchellSince1893
01-20-2016, 05:34 PM
There's been a lot of interpretation in this thread that the Romano-Britons had recent continental origins but it doesn't look like the authors agree...

As I mentioned earlier, the descendants of a Continental ancestor arriving in York in the later half of the first Century AD may appear less than 1% Continental after 7 generations or ~200 years (70 AD to 250 AD). But I'm not sure how such a person would appear on the graphs in the paper. After ~7 generations would there still be any signs of Continental ancestry? Or would they be almost identical to an Iron Age Briton sample? I assume the latter but profess I don't actually know.

Again having more precise dates for these samples would help tremendously in narrowing down possible scenarios.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-20-2016, 06:16 PM
All of the R1b Romans belonged to blood group "O" and Drif-16 had rs2228479 GA.

What is the significance of R1b and blood group "O" Please? I appreciate blood group "0" is more prevalent in places like Wales. Just curious because I'm Welsh, R1b YDNA and "O" negative. I noted the study referred to blood groups and when I have mentioned blood group distribution in other threads it has been sort of suggested it isn't really relevant in the modern context of DNA testing.

kingjohn
01-20-2016, 06:28 PM
the roman were very smart
people who knew how to use the advantage of the people they conqure
for example archery : most of the roman archers were infact syrians http://www.caerleon.net/history/army/page7.html
soem syrian auxilary were sent to britain http://www.caerleon.net/history/army/archers.html
and the most important link read about http://www.romanarmy.net/images/Pages/Military/hamians.htm
why i tell all this because very likely the j2 guy was middle eastern auxilry maybe from syria
judging by his autosomal result.
regards
adam

dsherry
01-20-2016, 06:30 PM
I am curious why the tests were only done to 1x. Is it likely cost or the difficulty of having enough sample to test? Does 1x testing impact the ability to look at downstream SNPs? Thanks

Anglecynn
01-20-2016, 06:40 PM
With regards to the U106, in my opinion while we should keep an open mind about these individuals, the fact remains (whether these were men of entirely local descent or not) that there is 2x R1b-U106 in Britain in a Roman context, and we cannot necessarily assume that they didn't have children who stayed in Britain - So it's at least clear to me that while U106 was probably heavily 'reinforced'/increased with the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons, we have direct evidence of U106 men here prior to that time - So at the very least even if these U106 did turn out to be from abroad somehow - there was clearly already some U106 here when the Anglo-Saxons arrived. I guess we'll need more results ofc from the latest Iron Age to see whether it was present in significant amounts among the native Iron age population, as opposed to the Romano-British population.

northkerry
01-20-2016, 06:55 PM
What is the significance of R1b and blood group "O" Please? I appreciate blood group "0" is more prevalent in places like Wales. Just curious because I'm Welsh, R1b YDNA and "O" negative. I noted the study referred to blood groups and when I have mentioned blood group distribution in other threads it has been sort of suggested it isn't really relevant in the modern context of DNA testing.

I think that blood group O is the most common western European group and is found all along the Atlantic coast to Iberia.

kingjohn
01-20-2016, 07:26 PM
what was the blood type of the anglosaxon was it B or A ?
regards
adam

rms2
01-20-2016, 07:37 PM
There's been a lot of interpretation in this thread that the Romano-Britons had recent continental origins but it doesn't look like the authors agree . . .

I don't think anyone said those R1b individuals were anything other than locals born and raised in Britain. That is what the evidence indicates. What I do not think was local, at least not of long standing anyway, was the y haplogroup of those two U106 individuals and perhaps the U152 individual, as well, although he could have been a member of the Parisii tribe or of some other relatively recently arrived La Tene or Belgic group.

As I said before, keep in mind that these are Roman remains in an urban Roman setting, not British remains in a tribal setting far from Roman influence. It is well known and documented that the Romans brought in people, especially soldiers, from all over their far flung Empire. These men could have been the sons or grandsons of such male imports and native British women. No doubt many children were born of such unions in Roman Britain and raised there. Isotope tests would say of those children what they say of these men, and the British autosomal dna they acquired from their distaff side would plot with the modern Welsh.

That scenario seems a lot likelier to me than imagining that U106 was common in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons or was of ancient provenance there.

alan
01-20-2016, 07:58 PM
Unfortunately it tell us nothing for sure about pre-Roman Britain. It does however give a clue as to how in some circles the more Romanised population could include elements from all over the empire.

I have always thought that Roman Britain was divided into Romanised areas with very eclectic populations and areas with little Romanisation which retained its pre-Roman population virtually untouched. It is very noticeable that when the Anglo-Saxons invaded the Romaised areas fell quickly but the non-Romanised areas of Wales, SW England, NW England etc held them off for far longer.I believe due to this the Romanised population took the biggest hit in the Anglo-Saxon invasion.

alan
01-20-2016, 08:07 PM
Genuine question but would we be able to tell from autosomal signal if a person was from Britain or northern/Belgic Gaul? I suspect they were mighty similar in autosomal DNA given that most of the prehistoric waves entered Britain from between Brittany and the Rhine. However we have no Iron Age or Gallo-Roman DNA from the north of Gaul so cant prove this. It almost goes without saying though when you consider the Neolithic, copper age, Bronze Age and Iron Age connections and migrations all came from that very area. Modern samples from the same area may differ just as Hixton differs from today.

alan
01-20-2016, 08:11 PM
Could a Briton and a northern Gaul be distinguised in autosomal DNA at that time? I doubt it and I wouldnt trust modern populations as proxies.

avalon
01-20-2016, 08:14 PM
As I mentioned earlier, the descendants of a Continental ancestor arriving in York in the later half of the first Century AD may appear less than 1% Continental after 7 generations or ~200 years (70 AD to 250 AD). But I'm not sure how such a person would appear on the graphs in the paper. After ~7 generations would there still be any signs of Continental ancestry? Or would they be almost identical to an Iron Age Briton sample? I assume the latter but profess I don't actually know.

Again having more precise dates for these samples would help tremendously in narrowing down possible scenarios.

Interesting suggestion. I am not saying you're wrong but why do you think it would take less than 7 generations for a Roman era continental male line, eg, a U106 Frisian auxilliary male, to become 100% British autosomally? Does this only work if he completely marries into a native British community and is this likely to have happened in a Roman town such as York?

alan
01-20-2016, 08:20 PM
Another simple deduction from 1 L21 guy out of 6 is that this doesnt look like a sample of normal Britons - unless of course they were related to a relatively late pre-Roman arrival from northern Gaul. Its actually the kind of mix that you see in Belgium today IMO and probably in the Belgae where they were interacting with Germanic settlers. If I saw that mix and was just told the date but not the location I would have guessed Belgium.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-20-2016, 08:21 PM
what was the blood type of the anglosaxon was it B or A ?
regards
adam

"Studies of the blood groups of Scandinavia, northern Germany and eastern England show a striking similarity. Except in the towns (where there has been significant population movement), each of these three areas contain approximately 70% blood group A. This is in contrast to rural Wales, where the most common blood group is Group O. Also occurring in Wales is Group B, which is rare in eastern England. " From "Blood Groups and Genetic Evidence".

jdean
01-20-2016, 08:46 PM
Another simple deduction from 1 L21 guy out of 6 is that this doesnt look like a sample of normal Britons - unless of course they were related to a relatively late pre-Roman arrival from northern Gaul. Its actually the kind of mix that you see in Belgium today IMO and probably in the Belgae where they were interacting with Germanic settlers. If I saw that mix and was just told the date but not the location I would have guessed Belgium.

I think it might be a good idea to wait for folk to start pocking about the RAW data, it's quite possible there are SNPs they missed. They were using the 2013 version of ISOGG for starters.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-20-2016, 08:46 PM
Another simple deduction from 1 L21 guy out of 6 is that this doesnt look like a sample of normal Britons - unless of course they were related to a relatively late pre-Roman arrival from northern Gaul. Its actually the kind of mix that you see in Belgium today IMO and probably in the Belgae where they were interacting with Germanic settlers. If I saw that mix and was just told the date but not the location I would have guessed Belgium.

Maybe it has to do with later contacts and development of Britthyonic form of Celtic, etc, we've discussed about .
Not a full blown migration, but continued trickle of cousin -like immigrants

corner
01-20-2016, 08:48 PM
Regarding what I know of Romans in the local area - there was a Nervian regiment stationed here in coastal North Yorkshire in the late 4th/early 5th centuries. There were well-regarded Nervian regiments active a few centuries earlier across Northern England. The Nervii originally came from northern Belgic Gaul.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervii

MitchellSince1893
01-20-2016, 09:05 PM
Interesting suggestion. I am not saying you're wrong but why do you think it would take less than 7 generations for a Roman era continental male line, eg, a U106 Frisian auxilliary male, to become 100% British autosomally? Does this only work if he completely marries into a native British community and is this likely to have happened in a Roman town such as York?

I was just pointing out what is theoretically possible. While there may have been some non Briton women in York at this time, I don't think they were a significant percentage of the gene pool.

Anecdotally, I can point to a more extreme example in my own family tree. On my father's line 6 and 7 generations back, he had a 4th great grandmother and a 5th great grandmother that were both natives of British India.
Here are his admixtures from a few different sites

Ancestry.com Ethnicity estimate
REGION: %
Europe: 98%
Great Britain: 71%
Ireland: 21%
Scandinavia: 3%
European Jewish: 2%
Finland/Northwest Russia: < 1%
Caucasus: 2%
Trace Regions: 2%

FTDNA MyOrigins
European: 93%
British Isles: 91%
Eastern Europe: 2%
Eastern Middle Eastern: 7%

23andme Ancestry Composition on Speculative Mode
European: 98.6%
British & Irish: 71.1%
French & German: 5.7%
Scandinavian: 1.2%
Broadly Northern European: 17.6%
Iberian: 0.9%
Broadly Southern European: 1.0%
Broadly European: 1.1%
South Asian: 1.3%
East Asian: 0.1%
Broadly East Asian: 0.1%
Depending on the tool he's 93 to almost 99% European. On paper he's 2.3% Indian. So theoretically a Roman soldier's descendant's could look very British after a few generations.

avalon
01-20-2016, 09:44 PM
I was just pointing out what is theoretically possible. While there may have been some non Briton women in York at this time, I don't think they were a significant percentage of the gene pole.

Anecdotally, I can point to a more extreme example in my own family tree. On my father's line 6 and 7 generations back, he had a 4th great grandmother and a 5th great grandmother that were both natives of British India.
Here are his admixtures from a few different sites

Depending on the tool he's 93 to almost 99% European. On paper he's 2.3% Indian. So theoretically a Roman soldier's descendant's could look very British after a few generations.

Yes, I agree, providing his male descendants keep marrying native British women it could happen within 6 or 7 generations theoretically.

I was just thinking, as others have suggested, that in the Romanised towns the population was more mixed and diverse.

avalon
01-20-2016, 10:05 PM
Unfortunately it tell us nothing for sure about pre-Roman Britain. It does however give a clue as to how in some circles the more Romanised population could include elements from all over the empire.

I have always thought that Roman Britain was divided into Romanised areas with very eclectic populations and areas with little Romanisation which retained its pre-Roman population virtually untouched. It is very noticeable that when the Anglo-Saxons invaded the Romaised areas fell quickly but the non-Romanised areas of Wales, SW England, NW England etc held them off for far longer.I believe due to this the Romanised population took the biggest hit in the Anglo-Saxon invasion.

Well, we do have the late Iron Age woman from East Yorkshire but clearly much more ancient DNA is needed.

Nic Fiachra
01-20-2016, 10:36 PM
Maybe it has to do with later contacts and development of Britthyonic form of Celtic, etc, we've discussed about .
Not a full blown migration, but continued trickle of cousin -like immigrants

L21 > DF63 is a brother clade of L21 > DF13. The overwhelming majority of men who have tested positive for L21 to date are L21 > DF13. Relatively few men have tested positive for DF63 so far. Most of the men in the FTDNA DF63 group who have listed a MDKA have listed their ancestor as being from England and Scotland, several Continental, and small numbers from Wales and Ireland.

Your speculation on the possibility that this is a "Brythonic form" of Celt struck me as interesting, in light of the results in the FTDNA DF63 group.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF63/default.aspx?section=yresults

Heber
01-20-2016, 11:16 PM
"Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons

They also show similarity with the earlier Iron-Age genome, suggesting population continuity, but differ from the later Anglo-Saxon genome.

Allele sharing patterns also allowed comparison with the other ancients; when median IBS values across the clusters were compared between those for the Iron-Age genome and those for the Roman cohort, these correlated strongly (r=0.74, P=0.004), supporting continuity

Plots of median cluster IBS values of the Romans versus the single Iron-Age genome and, below, versus the Anglo-Saxon sample. The strong relationship in the former is some indication of Iron-Age Roman genetic continuity, whereas discontinuity between Romans and the Anglo-Saxon is supported by their lack of correlation.

This is the first refined genomic evidence for far-reaching ancient mobility and (although from an unusual context) also the first snapshot of British genomes in the early centuries AD, indicating continuity with an Iron-Age sample before the migrations of the Anglo-Saxon period."

A key message from this paper is continuity between ancient Iron and pre Iron Age samples and modern populations.

This is also reflected in

"Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome

We also observe a strong signal of continuity between modern day Irish populations and the Bronze Age individuals

In regression with results from the other ancient genomes, these insular Celtic populations, and to a lesser degree the English, show an excess of sharing with Rathlin1, suggesting some level of local continuity at the edge of Europe persisting over 4,000 y.
H
This affinity with Irish, Scottish, and Welsh (a weaker signal from modern English populations is undoubtedly due to the effects of Anglo-Saxon migrations; ref. 36) suggests a degree of continuity stretching over 4,000 y at the insular Celtic edge of Europe."

Anglecynn
01-20-2016, 11:53 PM
"Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons

They also show similarity with the earlier Iron-Age genome, suggesting population continuity, but differ from the later Anglo-Saxon genome.

Allele sharing patterns also allowed comparison with the other ancients; when median IBS values across the clusters were compared between those for the Iron-Age genome and those for the Roman cohort, these correlated strongly (r=0.74, P=0.004), supporting continuity

Plots of median cluster IBS values of the Romans versus the single Iron-Age genome and, below, versus the Anglo-Saxon sample. The strong relationship in the former is some indication of Iron-Age Roman genetic continuity, whereas discontinuity between Romans and the Anglo-Saxon is supported by their lack of correlation.

This is the first refined genomic evidence for far-reaching ancient mobility and (although from an unusual context) also the first snapshot of British genomes in the early centuries AD, indicating continuity with an Iron-Age sample before the migrations of the Anglo-Saxon period."

The key message from this paper is continuity between ancient Iron and pre Iron Age samples and modern populations.

This is also reflected in

"Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome

We also observe a strong signal of continuity between modern day Irish populations and the Bronze Age individuals

In regression with results from the other ancient genomes, these insular Celtic populations, and to a lesser degree the English, show an excess of sharing with Rathlin1, suggesting some level of local continuity at the edge of Europe persisting over 4,000 y.

This affinity with Irish, Scottish, and Welsh (a weaker signal from modern English populations is undoubtedly due to the effects of Anglo-Saxon migrations; ref. 36) suggests a degree of continuity stretching over 4,000 y at the insular Celtic edge of Europe."

To me it seems that they are talking specifically about continuity from Iron age into Romano-British, followed by some discontinuity. Although it is clearly evident that the ancient and modern populations (apart from the near-eastern individual) are all very similar, despite an element of discontinuity occurring in the post-Roman period.

In all of the quotes above they are specifically talking about the Iron-Age to Roman continuity in the area sampled. The continuity is broken after this period (although the Iron Age and Roman individuals are of course still extremely similar to modern individuals, although stating this is not useful really - as they specifically used methods that would tease out different ancestries in genetically very similar individuals/populations).


Six of the seven individuals sampled here are clearly indigenous Britons in their genomic signal. When considered together, they are similar to the earlier Iron-Age sample, whilst the modern group with which they show closest affinity are Welsh. These six are also fixed for the Y-chromosome haplotype R1b-L51, which shows a cline in modern Britain, again with maximal frequencies among western populations. Interestingly, these people differ significantly from modern inhabitants of the same region (Yorkshire and Humberside) suggesting major genetic change in Eastern Britain within the last millennium and a half.

If you are mentioning specifically the areas without individuals sampled in the western fringes of Britain (specifically Wales) then it certainly infers continuity - however the Iron Age individuals were from what is now northern England rather than Wales - so without samples from late Iron Age Wales that can't be said for sure, especially as the Roman (sans near eastern) individuals fit very well with modern Welsh individuals and a little less well with Irish and Scottish individuals.

Personally i think that it is very good evidence of population continuity in western Britain and specifically Wales, especially as they were from the same sort of Celtic (linguistically speaking) background as the Welsh, so it would make sense that the Welsh would be slightly closer to Romano-British individuals than are the Scottish or Irish. Although without aDNA from Wales at or before this period we can't necessarily know that they weren't more Irish-like than they are today, and the higher affinity to lowland Romano-Britons (relative to their Scottish and Irish cousins) is in part due to post-Roman movements into Wales from lowland Britain.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but it's interesting to speculate.

Population continuity in the western parts of the Isles certainly seems to be the name of the game, but not so much in York & surrounds. Although i'd have thought that the key message of the paper is just that - continuity and discontinuity, rather than just one or the other, seeing as direct evidence of discontinuity in one area indirectly evidences continuity in another.

rms2
01-20-2016, 11:56 PM
"Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons

They also show similarity with the earlier Iron-Age genome, suggesting population continuity, but differ from the later Anglo-Saxon genome.

Allele sharing patterns also allowed comparison with the other ancients; when median IBS values across the clusters were compared between those for the Iron-Age genome and those for the Roman cohort, these correlated strongly (r=0.74, P=0.004), supporting continuity

Plots of median cluster IBS values of the Romans versus the single Iron-Age genome and, below, versus the Anglo-Saxon sample. The strong relationship in the former is some indication of Iron-Age Roman genetic continuity, whereas discontinuity between Romans and the Anglo-Saxon is supported by their lack of correlation.

This is the first refined genomic evidence for far-reaching ancient mobility and (although from an unusual context) also the first snapshot of British genomes in the early centuries AD, indicating continuity with an Iron-Age sample before the migrations of the Anglo-Saxon period."

A key message from this paper is continuity between ancient Iron and pre Iron Age samples and modern populations.

This is also reflected in

"Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome

We also observe a strong signal of continuity between modern day Irish populations and the Bronze Age individuals

In regression with results from the other ancient genomes, these insular Celtic populations, and to a lesser degree the English, show an excess of sharing with Rathlin1, suggesting some level of local continuity at the edge of Europe persisting over 4,000 y.
H
This affinity with Irish, Scottish, and Welsh (a weaker signal from modern English populations is undoubtedly due to the effects of Anglo-Saxon migrations; ref. 36) suggests a degree of continuity stretching over 4,000 y at the insular Celtic edge of Europe."

Fine, but apparently they mean population continuity as reflected in autosomal dna, because there is no evidence that U106 was present in Britain or Ireland prior to the Roman period.

rms2
01-21-2016, 12:04 AM
Interesting suggestion. I am not saying you're wrong but why do you think it would take less than 7 generations for a Roman era continental male line, eg, a U106 Frisian auxilliary male, to become 100% British autosomally? Does this only work if he completely marries into a native British community and is this likely to have happened in a Roman town such as York?

What would make him "100% British autosomally"? We don't have an autosomal match between these U106 individuals and actual ancient native Britons. We have best IBS matches to modern populations. As I pointed out before, even the Anglo-Saxon is showing Ireland and Wales as his number one and two best IBS matches.

Maybe your hypothetical Frisian auxiliary wasn't so very different from ancient Britons to begin with, so that just a couple of generations of mixing with British women would do the job of obtaining best IBS matches with modern Welsh. No doubt the modern Welsh have enough English admixture to move them Frisian-ward at least a bit.

DonG
01-21-2016, 01:38 AM
Best explanation is Rhine Beakers.

alan
01-21-2016, 06:13 AM
They are of course talking about continuity from the Iron Age principally. This means we cannot rule out some Romano Britons - especially in the La Tene rich area of Yorkshire and in Belgic areas being migrants of the last centuries BC from north-east Gaul who may have been autosomally practically identical to Britons but carrying less L21. If their autosomal DNA in northern Gaul was already very similar to other Britons (and IMO this is very likely the case) then any minor distinctiveness could be gone in a generation except yDNA.

It would actually not be that surprising to me if some of the La Tene and Belgic Iron Age settlers who came from Northern Gaul were not L21 dominated as the other Britons likely were and certainly U152 has long seemed likely. There were Germanic intrusions into Belgic Gaul several centuries before these samples too so U106 being present is not mind blowing to me either. Some areas of pre-Roman Britain probably were less L21 dominated.

That all said, it is also possible that some or many of these guys simply came from or had parents from part of the continent where the autosomal DNA was virtually identical to that of Britain anyway. I strongly suspect the northern Gauls would be autosomally virtually identical to Iron Age Britons and Irish.

kingjohn
01-21-2016, 08:40 AM
dear JohnHowellsTyrfro
thanks for your explenation i didn't knew
blood group A is predominante in anglo -saxon and probably the vikings to
p.s do they except jews to there forces{ my blood group A} just kidding:)
best regards
adam

northkerry
01-21-2016, 12:03 PM
I think that Rathlin 1 is the best ancient dna test to date because the SNP status is very clear and the credit goes to Prof.Bradley's state of the art dna lab at TCD. It was on the news here a couple of days ago and that is where I learned about the dna tests on the Roman Britons. I hope that we are able to get some more good YDNA results in the coming year. I would like to see some M222 and L513 results.

avalon
01-21-2016, 12:16 PM
What would make him "100% British autosomally"? We don't have an autosomal match between these U106 individuals and actual ancient native Britons. We have best IBS matches to modern populations. As I pointed out before, even the Anglo-Saxon is showing Ireland and Wales as his number one and two best IBS matches.

Maybe your hypothetical Frisian auxiliary wasn't so very different from ancient Britons to begin with, so that just a couple of generations of mixing with British women would do the job of obtaining best IBS matches with modern Welsh. No doubt the modern Welsh have enough English admixture to move them Frisian-ward at least a bit.

I was really thinking hypothetically, how many generations might it take a U106 lineage, recently arrived in Britain, to look autosomally native British. I do agree that the picture is somewhat complicated by the likelihood of ancient Britons being genetically similar in any case to nearby continentals.

Looking at the paper again, the authors clearly say that six Romano Britons are similar to the Iron Age woman and to the modern Welsh. The Anglo-Saxon is not. The median values in the PCA boxplot show the Anglo-Saxon is much closer to modern East Anglians and Dutch and the Iron Age woman is slap bang on the median Welsh value.


Six of the seven individuals sampled here are clearly indigenous Britons in their genomic signal. When considered together, they are similar to the earlier Iron-Age sample, whilst the modern group with which they show closest affinity are Welsh. These six are also fixed for the Y-chromosome haplotype R1b-L51, which shows a cline in modern Britain, again with maximal frequencies among western populations. Interestingly, these people differ significantly from modern inhabitants of the same region (Yorkshire and Humberside) suggesting major genetic change in Eastern Britain within the last millennium and a half. That this could have been, in some part, due to population influx associated with the Anglo-Saxon migrations is suggested by the different genetic signal of the later Anglo-Saxon genome. Iron-Age, Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Viking and other migrations have all been proposed as contributors to the genetic structure in modern United Kingdom

northkerry
01-21-2016, 12:35 PM
what was the blood type of the anglosaxon was it B or A ?
regards
adam

The Anglo Saxon was "B" and 6DRIF-22, R1b S28, was "A". You can see all in this file below.

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/extref/ncomms10326-s1.pdf

Stellaritic
01-21-2016, 02:19 PM
According to Davidski's analysis the middle eastern individual clusters very close to Yemenite Jews and some Saudis.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4123559132014627431&postID=1460974090759262202&isPopup=true

evon
01-21-2016, 02:48 PM
According to Davidski's analysis the middle eastern individual clusters very close to Yemenite Jews and some Saudis.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4123559132014627431&postID=1460974090759262202&isPopup=true

It would be interesting if David would run a segment analysis to see if the west Asian sample had any close matches in present day northern Europe? In short if he left any descendants in Europe.. My guess is that he represents a cosmopolitan mix of north Africa and west Asia..

ffoucart
01-21-2016, 02:58 PM
Could a Briton and a northern Gaul be distinguised in autosomal DNA at that time? I doubt it and I wouldnt trust modern populations as proxies.

As an example of modern Northern Gaul, my father's results by 23andme: R1b L21, 28,3% British and Irish, 22,4% French and German, 3,3% Scandinavian (86,9% Northern European), 7% Southern European (1,6 % Italian), rest no significative (no more than 0,3 %).
All his ancestry for hundred of years is from the former province of Belgica Secunda (Flanders, Artois, Hainaut, Cambresis, Brabant). Ancient Belgian tribes of the Menapii, Nervii, Atrebates,...

Agamemnon
01-21-2016, 03:29 PM
According to Davidski's analysis the middle eastern individual clusters very close to Yemenite Jews and some Saudis.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4123559132014627431&postID=1460974090759262202&isPopup=true

I think it's now safe to say that 3DRIF-26 was mainly Arabian in origin, probably Nabataean, from the Negev, Sinai or Harrat el Sham. It's also likely he was born around the Arabian limes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Arabicus). In turn, this probably means that most of the Ancient North Arabian speakers (especially Safaitic, Hismaic, Dumaitic and "Thamudic" tribesmen) were very similar to 3DRIF-26 from a genetic standpoint.
I'm really eager to learn which J2 lineage he carried now.

Davidski just shared this PCA plot:

http://pichoster.net/images/2016/01/21/Ancient_England.png

"Red = England Iron Age
Orange = England Anglo-Saxon
Yellow = British Romans with R1b-U106
Black = British Romans
Black star = Middle Eastern Roman"

He also posted 3DRIF-26's K15 results:

ID 3DRIF-26
North_Sea 0.02
Atlantic 4.06
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 11.24
West_Asian 10.99
East_Med 46.16
Red_Sea 20.98
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 6.54
Sub-Saharan 0.02

ADW_1981
01-21-2016, 03:41 PM
A few posters have mentioned that Celts practiced decapitation. I did some very "secondary source" research, but the implication was that this was done to their victims and they paraded around with them in a display of victory. However, it appears Romans may have decapitated their prisoners/criminals. Yet there seems to be some respect given to these men as they were buried with their heads. I couldn't find anything indicating gladiators regularly decapitated one another in matches, or that losers were often decapitated.

MitchellSince1893
01-21-2016, 04:25 PM
A few posters have mentioned that Celts practiced decapitation. I did some very "secondary source" research, but the implication was that this was done to their victims and they paraded around with them in a display of victory. However, it appears Romans may have decapitated their prisoners/criminals. Yet there seems to be some respect given to these men as they were buried with their heads. I couldn't find anything indicating gladiators regularly decapitated one another in matches, or that losers were often decapitated.

Could it be these men were decapitated by the Britons and later buried by the Romans? E.g. left on the battlefield after being captured and beheaded?

Stellaritic
01-21-2016, 04:38 PM
I think it's now safe to say that 3DRIF-26 was mainly Arabian in origin, probably Nabataean, from the Negev, Sinai or Harrat el Sham. It's also likely he was born around the Arabian limes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Arabicus). In turn, this probably means that most of the Ancient North Arabian speakers (especially Safaitic, Hismaic, Dumaitic and "Thamudic" tribesmen) were very similar to 3DRIF-26 from a genetic standpoint.
I'm really eager to learn which J2 lineage he carried now.

Davidski just shared this PCA plot:

http://pichoster.net/images/2016/01/21/Ancient_England.png

"Red = England Iron Age
Orange = England Anglo-Saxon
Yellow = British Romans with R1b-U106
Black = British Romans
Black star = Middle Eastern Roman"

He also posted 3DRIF-26's K15 results:

ID 3DRIF-26
North_Sea 0.02
Atlantic 4.06
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 11.24
West_Asian 10.99
East_Med 46.16
Red_Sea 20.98
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 6.54
Sub-Saharan 0.02
Times of Grace posted his K15 oracle results

The K15 oracle results for 3DRIF-26 using Admix4 [least-squares]

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Palestinian @ 7.892861
2 Bedouin @ 9.735329
3 Jordanian @ 10.699103
4 Samaritan @ 10.882444
5 Egyptian @ 12.261471
6 Yemenite_Jewish @ 13.881736
7 Lebanese_Christian @ 14.134447
8 Syrian @ 15.455195
9 Saudi @ 15.633462
10 Libyan_Jewish @ 16.488793
11 Lebanese_Druze @ 16.849952
12 Tunisian_Jewish @ 16.947318
13 Lebanese_Muslim @ 17.665131
14 Cyprian @ 18.849272
15 Sephardic_Jewish @ 21.690977
16 Kurdish_Jewish @ 21.923758
17 Algerian_Jewish @ 21.983456
18 Iranian_Jewish @ 22.708555
19 Italian_Jewish @ 22.898936
20 Assyrian @ 26.329748
206 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 Tunisian_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.730545
2 Samaritan+Yemenite_Jewish @ 5.433585
3 Cyprian+Yemenite_Jewish @ 5.435184
4 Libyan_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish @ 5.54292
5 Syrian+Yemenite_Jewish @ 5.863652
6 Samaritan+Saudi @ 6.055764
7 Jordanian+Yemenite_Jewish @ 6.058507
8 Lebanese_Muslim+Yemenite_Jewish @ 6.412908
9 Palestinian+Yemenite_Jewish @ 6.546099
10 Sephardic_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish @ 6.605741
21321 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Samaritan +25% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.790951
2 50% Samaritan +25% Egyptian +25% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.835664
3 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Cyprian +25% Egyptian @ 3.970079
4 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Syrian +25% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.141381
5 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Samaritan +25% Sephardic_Jewish @ 4.156833
6 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Algerian_Jewish +25% Samaritan @ 4.168106
7 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Kurdish_Jewish +25% Moroccan @ 4.197818
8 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Jordanian +25% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.22339
9 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Kurdish_Jewish +25% Tunisian @ 4.26225
10 50% Yemenite_Jewish +25% Lebanese_Christian +25% Tunisian @ 4.274044
1550395 iterations.

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Samaritan+Saudi+Tunisian_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.616255
2 Samaritan+Tunisian_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish+Yemenite _Jewish @ 3.790951
3 Egyptian+Samaritan+Samaritan+Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.835664
4 Cyprian+Egyptian+Yemenite_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.970079
5 Libyan_Jewish+Samaritan+Saudi+Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.032339
6 Lebanese_Christian+Saudi+Tunisian_Jewish+Yemenite_ Jewish @ 4.032568
7 Egyptian+Palestinian+Samaritan+Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.113074
8 Syrian+Tunisian_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish+Yemenite_Je wish @ 4.141381
9 Samaritan+Sephardic_Jewish+Yemenite_Jewish+Yemenit e_Jewish @ 4.156833
10 Algerian_Jewish+Samaritan+Yemenite_Jewish+Yemenite _Jewish @ 4.168106

jdean
01-21-2016, 05:48 PM
According to the results from the isotope analyses 6DRIF-21 didn't come from Britain.


6Drif-21 and 24 are the two individuals for which a British origin can be firmly excluded

http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mueldner-et-al-2011-Headless-Romans-JAS-Accepted.pdf

Does this mean we need to be careful how we draw conclusions from the 'Pairwise identity-by-state rank correlations' table ?

7381

kingjohn
01-21-2016, 06:35 PM
3DRIF-26 eurogenes k15
0% baltic , 0% eastern euro
only 4% atlantic like modern day samaritans
even if he was jordianian he is very close to how the jews from judea were pre diaspora .
i think it is almost the last nail in the closet that there was indid european admixture in western jews {aschenazi and sefhardic}.
and who would have thought that we goin to reach this treasure from britain truly amazing :amen:
regards
adam

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-21-2016, 06:41 PM
A few posters have mentioned that Celts practiced decapitation. I did some very "secondary source" research, but the implication was that this was done to their victims and they paraded around with them in a display of victory. However, it appears Romans may have decapitated their prisoners/criminals. Yet there seems to be some respect given to these men as they were buried with their heads. I couldn't find anything indicating gladiators regularly decapitated one another in matches, or that losers were often decapitated.

I have come across a few articles which suggest that defeated gladiators were sometimes decapitated, but also that Roman soldiers would sometimes collect heads. So did the Celts . There was a similar case in London, but just the heads were found. In York they mention marks of large animal teeth on one skull, but I''ve also see reference to pits of severed heads being chewed by dogs. Of course there were bears and wolves in Britain at this time. The gladiator theory seems most probable to me though. Could these be the descendants of slaves from across the Empire trained as gladiators? Just out of curiosity does anyone know whether the blond-haired, blue-eyed individual was U106?.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiqkb3uwbvKAhVCOhoKHfHhDMgQFggfMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2014%2F0 1%2F18%2Fgladiators-london-decapitated-skulls-ancient-romans_n_4617219.html&usg=AFQjCNEt9H_0Ije_7l8INerZeCTeVDaL4A&sig2=cfGzSSdTtUQUShKwQHOc1A

RCO
01-21-2016, 06:55 PM
Another possibility for the J2 individual could be a Jew. I googled and discovered a large and ancient Jewish community there. We don't know what the Jews were at that time just like the other cases were historical ethnies at that historical point and not modern or recent ethnies. A resolution of the J2 SNPs would give more elements.

jdean
01-21-2016, 06:55 PM
Just out of curiosity does anyone know whether the blond-haired, blue-eyed individual was U106?

No that was 6DRIF-18 (R-L11) and the Anglo Saxon, 6DRIF-18 was also considered to have possibly come from outside Britain because of his isotope results.

Piquerobi
01-21-2016, 07:01 PM
Times of Grace posted his K15 oracle results

Wow! He truly could have been Jewish. We know Jews even at that time were spread far and wide (Josephus mentions it).

ADW_1981
01-21-2016, 07:01 PM
I have come across a few articles which suggest that defeated gladiators were sometimes decapitated, but also that Roman soldiers would sometimes collect heads. So did the Celts . There was a similar case in London, but just the heads were found. In York they mention marks of large animal teeth on one skull, but I''ve also see reference to pits of severed heads being chewed by dogs. Of course there were bears and wolves in Britain at this time. The gladiator theory seems most probable to me though. Could these be the descendants of slaves from across the Empire trained as gladiators? Just out of curiosity does anyone know whether the blond-haired, blue-eyed individual was U106?.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiqkb3uwbvKAhVCOhoKHfHhDMgQFggfMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2014%2F0 1%2F18%2Fgladiators-london-decapitated-skulls-ancient-romans_n_4617219.html&usg=AFQjCNEt9H_0Ije_7l8INerZeCTeVDaL4A&sig2=cfGzSSdTtUQUShKwQHOc1A

The blond guy is labeled as L11+ (xL21, XU106, XU152). I'm not ruling out P312(xL21,XU152) or DF27 at this time until the data is thoroughly analyzed. I was able to start processing some files but ran out of time because I'm using a work laptop....

Lank
01-21-2016, 07:06 PM
I agree with Ag that Nabataea or North Arabia is most likely.

Modern Palestinian Christian for comparison (looks more northern):

1 East_Med 46.63
2 West_Asian 17.03
3 Red_Sea 14.61
4 West_Med 10.64
5 Atlantic 7.44
6 Northeast_African 3.02
7 South_Asian 0.63

parasar
01-21-2016, 07:10 PM
Another possibility for the J2 individual could be a Jew. I googled and discovered a large and ancient Jewish community there. We don't know what the Jews were at that time just like the other cases were historical ethnies at that historical point and not modern or recent ethnies. A resolution of the J2 SNPs would give more elements.

How about a Libyan?
Septimius Severus was a native Libyan and died in York.

parasar
01-21-2016, 07:20 PM
A few posters have mentioned that Celts practiced decapitation. I did some very "secondary source" research, but the implication was that this was done to their victims and they paraded around with them in a display of victory. However, it appears Romans may have decapitated their prisoners/criminals. Yet there seems to be some respect given to these men as they were buried with their heads. I couldn't find anything indicating gladiators regularly decapitated one another in matches, or that losers were often decapitated.

These decapitations were quite brutal, one requiring 13 blows to sever the head. The force began at the back of the neck.
Perhaps done after the gladiator lost. There is also a theory of a punishment for rebellion, but as the heads are from different events, a single rebellion looks unlikely.

kingjohn
01-21-2016, 07:23 PM
lank ,
modern palestinians still lack the baltic ,eastern euro components
and if they have it is extremely low.(0.5%-2%}
there atlantic is 6-7% but they usually lack north sea.
those 3% more atlantic in comprasion to the middle eastern gladiator could be from crusades admixture in mediveal time.
best regards
adam

ADW_1981
01-21-2016, 07:28 PM
lank ,
modern palestinians still lack the baltic ,eastern euro components
and if they have it is extremely low.(0.5%-2%}
there atlantic is 6-7% but they usually lack north sea.
those 3% more atlantic in comprasion to the middle eastern gladiator could be from crusades admixture in mediveal time.
best regards
adam

People from the western Mid East have some WHG, it's probably embedded in that Atlantic component. I wouldn't get too hung up on the J2 guy. It's almost a shoo-in that he came from a region of the Mid East controlled by the Roman Empire.

kingjohn
01-21-2016, 07:33 PM
the j2 guy could be extremely similar autosomally to roman emperor {it is 99.99% bet }
named philip the arab he was from that area he was born in shahba
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_the_Arab
regards
adam

ADW_1981
01-21-2016, 07:34 PM
Apparently about 80 remains are in this cemetery. Anyone know if additional results will be forthcoming or is it a funding issue?

Anglecynn
01-21-2016, 07:37 PM
A few posters have mentioned that Celts practiced decapitation. I did some very "secondary source" research, but the implication was that this was done to their victims and they paraded around with them in a display of victory. However, it appears Romans may have decapitated their prisoners/criminals. Yet there seems to be some respect given to these men as they were buried with their heads. I couldn't find anything indicating gladiators regularly decapitated one another in matches, or that losers were often decapitated.

One individual that i encountered at university (from Roman Winchester) had been decapitated and at the time the blow occurred he was holding his head down in a way that only can be done by/to living people, and it was from behind. So the suggestion is that it was an execution with the victim below and to the front of the executioner, with his head held down close to his chest. It's (i believe) the same individual as in one of the recent (2013) Meet the Ancestors recaps where they look at some Roman burials and in particular decapitation burials, can't remember which episode. It's explained better in that.

Would make sense if some of these ones were Roman executions or something similar, although maybe it's a bit brazen to classify all of them as 'executions' without direct evidence - the head could have been removed post-mortem for a number of reasons?

Krefter
01-21-2016, 07:38 PM
How about a Libyan?
Septimius Severus was a native Libyan and died in York.

He could only be Libyan if Libyans were like Arabs 2,000 years ago. Basically, he looks just like modern Saudi Arabians.

Lank
01-21-2016, 07:40 PM
lank ,
modern palestinians still lack the baltic ,eastern euro components
and if they have it is extremely low.(0.5%-2%}
there atlantic is 6-7% but they usually lack north sea.
those 3% more atlantic in comprasion to the middle eastern gladiator could be from crusades admixture in mediveal time.
best regards
adam
It's not just the Atlantic. The Palestinian Christian has significantly more West Asian (less Red Sea), and half the East African of this ancient sample from England. Of course, other modern Levantines like Lebanese and Syrians tend to be be even more north-shifted relative to this ancient sample.

So it doesn't look like he was from the Levant, unless there was a major genetic shift toward the north in the last 2000 years (doubtful), or there was some structure in the Levant in ancient times and some of the groups were more Arabian-shifted.

Stellaritic
01-21-2016, 07:45 PM
From his oracle 4 approximations we can notice that he was predominately Arabian(Saudi+Yemenite Jews) but also was slightly shifted towards Sephardim and Egyptians( NorthWest) .
I think he could have been a Northwestern Arabian/Southwestern Levantine.

kingjohn
01-21-2016, 07:47 PM
so do you think
he was from saudi arabia or jordan ?
p.s people here talk about septimus severus but he was half european{itlian on is mother side}
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimius_Severus
so he was not full 100% lybian only from his father side.
i agree with you lank that if we look at the other components they are more northen but in the european components there was very minor changes.
regards
adam

rms2
01-21-2016, 08:16 PM
According to the results from the isotope analyses 6DRIF-21 didn't come from Britain.



http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mueldner-et-al-2011-Headless-Romans-JAS-Accepted.pdf

Does this mean we need to be careful how we draw conclusions from the 'Pairwise identity-by-state rank correlations' table ?

7381

It seems that way.

I didn't notice that isotopes showed the DF63 Roman didn't come from Britain. Good catch. It's funny, but I got the impression early on that DF63 came from the Continent; but then I also think DF13 came from the Continent, just earlier than DF63.

Agamemnon
01-21-2016, 08:33 PM
It's pretty clear that 3DRIF-26 is predominantly Arabian, albeit shifted towards Cypriots. Him being J2 doesn't change that, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he carried an Arabian branch of J2a-PF5087. I've said for a long time now that Yemenite Jews might be the best proxy for Arabian ancestry, so it's kind of underwhelming to see that he often ends up being half-Yemenite Jewish in the oracle fits. I think he was either Nabataean or North Arabian (Hismaic, Safaitic, take your pick). His Red Sea and Northeast African scores are in line with what you'd expect to see in most Bedouins.
The theory according to which 3DRIF-26 was Judean really needs special pleading IMO, and even then it still wouldn't be convincing. As far as the pre-exilic Judeans go, I think they were more "northern", that is to say anywhere in between Cypriots, Druze and Lebanese Christians. Also, I don't know why some are bringing Western Jews (Ashkenazi + Sephardic) into this discussion, since they obviously have considerable Eastern Mediterranean admixture (Aegean/Greek if you ask me).

ADW_1981
01-21-2016, 08:34 PM
According to this paper here regarding the same burial, only a handful of remains had isotopes which strongly indicated British origin. Nonetheless, it indicated the territory was likely close to Britain, but possibly a little warmer or cooler. It seems likely to me that some of these guys could have easily been from tribes on the western part of the European continent. It might explain the diversity of R1b from the grave.

http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mueldner-et-al-2011-Headless-Romans-JAS-Accepted.pdf

jdean
01-21-2016, 08:39 PM
It seems that way.

I didn't notice that isotopes showed the DF63 Roman didn't come from Britain. Good catch. It's funny, but I got the impression early on that DF63 came from the Continent; but then I also think DF13 came from the Continent, just earlier than DF63.

From this paper Driffield Terrace Cemetery is a bit of a mystery, it's high status and the people who are buried there appeared to have come from far and wide plus the number of decapitated remains is extremely high.

Tolan
01-21-2016, 08:49 PM
It seems that way.

I didn't notice that isotopes showed the DF63 Roman didn't come from Britain. Good catch. It's funny, but I got the impression early on that DF63 came from the Continent; but then I also think DF13 came from the Continent, just earlier than DF63.

Genetically, 6DRIF-21 is briton and Oxygen isotope can say that he lived in a warm country.
The two things are not incompatible ..
We can imagine that he was kidnapped and sent when he was young to Italy, and he returned to his country of origin in Gladiator or roman soldier

jdean
01-21-2016, 08:55 PM
Genetically, 6DRIF-21 is briton and Oxygen isotope can say that he lived in a hot country.
The two things are not incompatible ..
We can imagine that he was kidnapped and sent when he was young to Italy, and he returned to his country of origin in Gladiator..

Except the paper was quite emphatic


6Drif-21 and 24 are the two individuals for which a British origin can be firmly excluded

http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mueldner-et-al-2011-Headless-Romans-JAS-Accepted.pdf

ADW_1981
01-21-2016, 08:56 PM
Genetically, 6DRIF-21 is briton and Oxygen isotope can say that he lived in a hot country.
The two things are not incompatible ..
We can imagine that he was kidnapped and sent when he was young to Italy, and he returned to his country of origin in Gladiator..

I don't recall the exact wording, but I think the indication was it was warmer than Britain. Some areas in France are hotter than Britain I imagine?

rms2
01-21-2016, 08:59 PM
I don't recall the exact wording, but I think the indication was it was warmer than Britain. Some areas in France are hotter than Britain I imagine?

Could have been a Celtiberian. Spain is definitely warmer than Britain.

jdean
01-21-2016, 09:00 PM
I don't recall the exact wording, but I think the indication was it was warmer than Britain. Some areas in France are hotter than Britain I imagine?

You can say that again : )

When you fly over the channel the ground changes colour !!

R.Rocca
01-21-2016, 09:44 PM
Excavated cart and chariot burials of the Iron Age Arras Culture, which had burial practices more similar to the continent's La Tene Culture than those of Iron Age Britain (Map by John T. Koch)

Based on the prior Müldner paper that did the isotope analysis, the U152+ sample...


"...falls only just outside the estimated British range, but with higher 18Op than expected, suggesting origins at lower latitude, in a warmer climate, although the possibility of origins in the "warm" south and west of Britain cannot be entirely excluded within the error of the method."

Lank
01-21-2016, 09:50 PM
A Saudi (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6261-Which-project-calculator-for-Saudi-Arabian&p=135106&viewfull=1#post135106) member just posted his results. The results show much higher Red Sea and lower West Med than the Roman sample. Unless the Red Sea component is skewed toward modern Arabian allele frequencies, this makes a more northerly origin (Nabataea?) for the Roman seem more parsimonious.

Egypt is another possibility, although the East African seems a bit low compared to modern Copts (J2 would not be expected, either).

Stellaritic
01-21-2016, 10:16 PM
A Saudi (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6261-Which-project-calculator-for-Saudi-Arabian&p=135106&viewfull=1#post135106) member just posted his results. The results show much higher Red Sea and lower West Med than the Roman sample. Unless the Red Sea component is skewed toward modern Arabian allele frequencies, this makes a more northerly origin (Nabataea?) for the Roman seem more parsimonious.

Egypt is another possibility, although the East African seems a bit low compared to modern Copts (J2 would not be expected, either).

Like Agamemnon mentioned earlier, the Roman's results are in line with modern day Negev Bedouins except for three components :
His East Med is significantly higher than the Bedouin's average while he lacks the west African/SSA and South Asian found in Bedouins and other Middle Easterners.
It seems to me that the two last components are recent gene flows .

Tomenable
01-21-2016, 10:48 PM
analysis of chemical signatures in the bones and teeth of other skeletons from the cemetery had determined that some of the men grew up in colder climates, perhaps Germany or further east in continental Europe. The chemical evidence also indicated some of them ate millet grain—a crop that was unavailable in Britain—as children.

This research paper (https://etd.ohiolink.edu/ap:10:0::NO:10:P10_ACCESSION_NUM:osu1330969837) by Reitsema claims:
---
Human samples show evidence for millet consumption, a uniquely Slavic cultigen in Europe that may be useful in studying Slavic migrations.
---

Reitsema (with Kozłowski) also writes (https://www.academia.edu/5301065/Diet_and_Society_in_Poland_before_the_State_Stable _Isotope_Evidence_from_a_Wielbark_Population_2nd_c ._AD_):
---
Millet consumption among Wielbark and early medieval Polish populations represents a potentially significant continuity between the Roman era and the medieval period in Poland.
---

Indeed:

"Diet and society in Poland before the state: stable isotope evidence from a Wielbark population (2nd c. AD)":

http://www.ptantropologiczne.pl/en/ckfinder/userfiles/images/AR/vol76/AR_76-1-001-022.pdf

"Stable Carbon and Nitrogen Isotope Analysis of Human Diet Change in Prehistoric and Historic Poland":

https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=osu1330969837&disposition=inline

"Preliminary evidence for medieval Polish diet from carbon and nitrogen stable isotopes":

https://www.academia.edu/324137/Preliminary_evidence_for_medieval_Polish_diet_from _carbon_and_nitrogen_stable_isotopes

===============================

So it seems that milet is now a "uniquely Slavic AND East Germanic (Gothic)", not just Slavic (???).

Another hint is the similarity of Poles to prehistoric genomes from the island of Gothland:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/04/prehistoric-scandinavians-genetically.html

===============================

BTW - we can't claim that those gladiators/soldiers are "pulling/shifted towards East Europe".

They are not pulling towards East Europe as a whole. They are pulling very specifically towards LT-PL, then towards North-West Europe, then towards Belarus, then France/North Italy, and only then the rest of East Europe, to a much lesser extent than LT-PL and Belarus:

(too bad, that in case of the rest of East Europe, they did not describe which country is which):

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/images/ncomms10326-f2.jpg

http://s21.postimg.org/d751mlrc7/East_Europe.png

http://s21.postimg.org/d751mlrc7/East_Europe.png

Piquerobi
01-21-2016, 11:05 PM
The Anglo Saxon R1b L11+ guy could have been DF100+, a parallel clade to U106 and P312 which is basically confined to Germanic speaking countries nowadays.

Tomenable
01-21-2016, 11:19 PM
More on millet:


This paper discusses the diet tests further - they mention millet has sometimes been found in Britain in the context of barracks supplies - maybe imported for auxilia from regions used to it?

Here is the excerpt:

http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mueldner-et-al-2011-Headless-Romans-JAS-Accepted.pdf


Of particular interest were two individuals whose diet contained asignificant proportion of C4-plant (probably millet) –based protein. These are the first such isotope values observed in Britain from any archaeological time-period. Millet was not cultivated in the British Isles in antiquity and the results therefore demonstrate the value of palaeodietary data for assisting in isotopic mobility studies.

But the authors say that they ate millet in childhood, long before living in military barracks.

"The chemical evidence also indicated some of them ate millet grain—a crop that was unavailable in Britain—as children."

However:


maybe imported for auxilia from regions used to it?

Maybe those children were mixed children of Auxilia men from millet-eating regions with local British women ???

And that's why they ate millet in childhood.

rozenfeld
01-21-2016, 11:27 PM
Question: Did anyone compared these gladiators with Iron Age genomes from Hinxton and Linton?

Awale
01-21-2016, 11:38 PM
It seems to me that the two last components are recent gene flows .

Seems so... From what I've noticed, even the Christian groups (or Jewish groups like Yemenite Jews) in the Middle East tend to lack West-Central African-related input for example:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0JB701iOfRc/Vo7EaRSICdI/AAAAAAAAEAQ/NexI7NE4j_g/s1600/12121.png

Notice how Yemenite Jews are bereft of the Yoruba peaking cluster...

Him lacking such input is like ancient DNA just confirming what many (including Lank) have figured in regards to West-Central African-related input in groups like Saudis-> obviously later input probably to be tied to something like the Arab Slave Trade (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade).

jdean
01-21-2016, 11:39 PM
The Anglo Saxon R1b L11+ guy could have been DF100+, a parallel clade to U106 and P312 which is basically confined to Germanic speaking countries nowadays.

The Anglo Saxon was I1

jdean
01-21-2016, 11:43 PM
Question: Did anyone compared these gladiators with Iron Age genomes from Hinxton and Linton?

I don't think it's absolute they were gladiators, apparently the cemetery was supposed to be high status which doesn't sound like the sort of place you would put the debris from the afternoons entertainment.

rozenfeld
01-21-2016, 11:48 PM
I don't think it's absolute they were gladiators, apparently the cemetery was supposed to be high status which doesn't sound like the sort of place you would put the debris from the afternoons entertainment.

OK, let me rephrase: did anyone compared the aDNA from York to pre-Roman aDNA from Linton and Hinxton? Autosomes, to be more precise.

Tomenable
01-21-2016, 11:49 PM
They could be Auxilia soldiers.

jdean
01-21-2016, 11:53 PM
OK, let me rephrase: did anyone compared the aDNA from York to pre-Roman aDNA from Linton and Hinxton? Autosomes, to be more precise.


Not as far as I'm aware but I think it would be interesting.

RHAS
01-22-2016, 02:41 AM
"Here we report nine ancient genomes (~1 ×) of individuals from northern Britain: seven from a Roman era York cemetery, bookended by earlier Iron-Age and later Anglo-Saxon burials. ... Strikingly, one Roman skeleton shows a clear signal of exogenous origin, with affinities pointing towards the Middle East, confirming the cosmopolitan character of the Empire, even at its northernmost fringes. ... Sample 3DRIF-26, on the other hand, despite belonging to the same burial context, presented a lineage consistent with haplogroup J2-L228, which has a modern distribution centred on the Middle East, but which is also present in the Caucasus region, the Balkans and Italy."
Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/full/ncomms10326.html

"Sample 3DRIF26 is clearly an exception, both in terms of autosomal variation as in the Ychromosome lineage it presents (J2), common in the Middle East, Caucasus, Balkans and Italy and attributed to neolithic demic migrations or to seafaring Phoenicians."
Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons - Supplementary Figures.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/extref/ncomms10326-s1.pdf

"The fact that multiple isotopic proxies (Sr, O, C, N) for 3DRIF26 appear consistent with the same general area, Lower Egypt, should not be misunderstood as a secure assignation of origin, however, especially given that reference values used are not from the Roman period and comparative data from other regions (such as arid parts of the Levant or Eastern Syria) that would provide a good fit on theoretical grounds, are not currently available. The similarities should therefore rather be taken as evidence for the kind of environment in which 3DRIF26 spent his childhood than as a positive identification of the area of origin."
Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons - Supplementary Figures.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/extref/ncomms10326-s1.pdf

"Scientists reveal that headless men believed to be gladiators have descendants in Wales – and one hailed from Middle East"
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/19/origins-of-yorks-decapitated-romans-traced-by-genome-technology

"The savagery of gladiatorial battles was depicted as Channel 4 investigated the discovery of 80 skeletons at a York archaeological dig. As reported in The Press, the 80 skeletons, the majority of large, powerfully-built men dating from Roman times, were found at a dig in Driffield Terrace, Holgate."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-LpbKyhBC4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-LpbKyhBC4

Full documentary: http://watchdocumentary.org/watch/gladiators-back-from-the-dead-video_13d4008d0.html

Heber
01-22-2016, 02:58 AM
Great interview with Professor Dan Bradley and Professor Mark Thomas on the two recent papers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06whswv

vettor
01-22-2016, 04:55 AM
More on millet:



Here is the excerpt:

http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mueldner-et-al-2011-Headless-Romans-JAS-Accepted.pdf



But the authors say that they ate millet in childhood, long before living in military barracks.

"The chemical evidence also indicated some of them ate millet grain—a crop that was unavailable in Britain—as children."

However:



Maybe those children were mixed children of Auxilia men from millet-eating regions with local British women ???

And that's why they ate millet in childhood.

I do not know why they are making a big fuss on millet............the Romans where eating millet mixed with either chestnut flour or with spelt in the republican days of the empire ( BC times ).
it was called Pulmentu ( polenta ).
History of Polenta

In Roman times, polenta (or as they knew it, pulmentu) was the staple of the mighty Roman Legions and would eat it in either a porridge or in a hard cake like form, much like today.

commonly eaten since Roman times. Before the introduction of corn (maize) from the New World in the 16th century,[2] polenta was made with such starchy ingredients as farro, chestnut flour, millet, spelt, and chickpeas.[3]

Granted, modern Polenta is made by maize imtroduced into Europe in the 16th century from South America.

This millet chit-chat seems a stretch to actually say its eastern European ...................maybe they want to note this eastern european to make a direction of millet via its origin which is western China ( 6000BC )

Tolan
01-22-2016, 05:37 AM
Genetically, 6DRIF-21 is briton and Oxygen isotope can say that he lived in a hot country.
The two things are not incompatible ..
We can imagine that he was kidnapped and sent when he was young to Italy, and he returned to his country of origin in Gladiator..


Except the paper was quite emphatic

6Drif-21 and 24 are the two individuals for which a British origin can be firmly excluded
http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-...S-Accepted.pdf

http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mueldner-et-al-2011-Headless-Romans-JAS-Accepted.pdf

Yet, in autosomal 6DRIF-21 looks like a Welsh:
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/images/ncomms10326-f1.jpg

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-22-2016, 07:51 AM
Just a thought, I assume they allowed for possible different climatic conditions in the Roman Period? The Romans grew grapes here even in Northern England and the climate was warmer It seems. Article about tree ring study.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwifrsnS_LzKAhXHOhQKHavsBBkQFgggMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fsciencetech %2Farticle-2171973%2FTree-ring-study-proves-climate-WARMER-Roman-Medieval-times-modern-industrial-age.html&usg=AFQjCNElC2mJikdqgOCAlmdRFKlx_SjrCw&sig2=fkTLcBP7olXOCfgzRA5GjQ

jdean
01-22-2016, 08:37 AM
Yet, in autosomal 6DRIF-21 looks like a Welsh:

Of course it's quite possible he was a native Brit but was born abroad, it happens today so I don't see why it couldn't happen then.

However the autosomal data isn't saying he was Welsh, it's saying he's closer to the modern Welsh population than other modern populations.

At the moment we don't have much data from this period and it's possible if we did we might find there are other areas in the Roman world that are better matches.

JonikW
01-22-2016, 09:09 AM
This report from Reading university on stable isotopes and diet also shows some millet was eaten in Roman Britain
http://centaur.reading.ac.uk/28535/

Tomenable
01-22-2016, 09:12 AM
Yet, in autosomal 6DRIF-21 looks like a Welsh:
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/images/ncomms10326-f1.jpg

One of Roman individuals was autosomally Eastern European (Ru - Russian?), according to this PCA.

jdean
01-22-2016, 09:35 AM
This report from Reading university on stable isotopes and diet also shows some millet was eaten in Roman Britain
http://centaur.reading.ac.uk/28535/

The paper says


There are no native C4-cultigens in Britain, and although the first finds of millet date from the Roman period, these are so rare that they have been interpreted as ‘exotic’ imports, rather than widely available crops

Tomenable
01-22-2016, 09:38 AM
the Romans where eating millet mixed with either chestnut flour or with spelt in the republican days of the empire ( BC times ).
it was called Pulmentu ( polenta ).

Unless those gladiators were 300 years old (and they were less than 45 years old as we know), they did not spend childhood in BC times.

JonikW
01-22-2016, 09:57 AM
The paper says

But it goes on to say millet can be all but ruled out as an explanation for a general dietary shift. Surely this means millet could have been consumed in Britain by the people who ate it as children?

avalon
01-22-2016, 10:12 AM
Just a thought, I assume they allowed for possible different climatic conditions in the Roman Period? The Romans grew grapes here even in Northern England and the climate was warmer It seems. Article about tree ring study.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwifrsnS_LzKAhXHOhQKHavsBBkQFgggMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fsciencetech %2Farticle-2171973%2FTree-ring-study-proves-climate-WARMER-Roman-Medieval-times-modern-industrial-age.html&usg=AFQjCNElC2mJikdqgOCAlmdRFKlx_SjrCw&sig2=fkTLcBP7olXOCfgzRA5GjQ

Good point. Another thing to consider is the slight variations in climate within Britain. Because of the gulf stream Cornwall has warmer winters than the NE of England.

jdean
01-22-2016, 10:25 AM
But it goes on to say millet can be all but ruled out as an explanation for a general dietary shift. Surely this means millet could have been consumed in Britain by the people who ate it as children?

No they are saying millet wasn't being consumed

JonikW
01-22-2016, 10:37 AM
Sorry, thought the words almost ruled out as an explanation for a general dietary shift leaves open the possibility of use on a localised basis. Still, the millet factor is interesting!

avalon
01-22-2016, 10:44 AM
One of Roman individuals was autosomally Eastern European (Ru - Russian?), according to this PCA.

I think you have misread that. One of the Romano-Britons plots close to Hu- Hungary, not RU Russia.

Tomenable
01-22-2016, 10:53 AM
Yes, I thought it was Ru, but it is Hu. That's still Eastern Europe, though (according to their chart).

jdean
01-22-2016, 11:07 AM
Sorry, thought the words almost ruled out as an explanation for a general dietary shift leaves open the possibility of use on a localised basis. Still, the millet factor is interesting!

Yes it is interesting and is part of the evidence that a lot of the people buried at Driffield Terrace came from far and wide, however none of those in the DNA study had unusual results for δ13C suggesting a millet diet, that was 3Drif-10 and 6Drif-9.

The DNA paper did say 3Driff-26 and 6Driff-18 grew up on diets out of the norm for Roman York but that was based on δ15N results.

JonikW
01-22-2016, 11:32 AM
Do you have any personal thoughts on where they came from? I hope we'll get some aDNA from, say, an Iron Age village in Devon where less speculation on origins might be needed.

rozenfeld
01-22-2016, 12:06 PM
Do you have any personal thoughts on where they came from? I hope we'll get some aDNA from, say, an Iron Age village in Devon where less speculation on origins might be needed.

Why Devon, may I ask? There already several aDNA published from around Cambridge(i.e. Hinxton and Linton).

jdean
01-22-2016, 12:51 PM
Do you have any personal thoughts on where they came from? I hope we'll get some aDNA from, say, an Iron Age village in Devon where less speculation on origins might be needed.

I wouldn't like to say, it seems greater amounts of δ15N is associated with a high freshwater fish diet from hotter parts of the world but even if that is true it hardly narrows it down.

Tolan
01-22-2016, 12:52 PM
Of course it's quite possible he was a native Brit but was born abroad, it happens today so I don't see why it couldn't happen then.

However the autosomal data isn't saying he was Welsh, it's saying he's closer to the modern Welsh population than other modern populations.

At the moment we don't have much data from this period and it's possible if we did we might find there are other areas in the Roman world that are better matches.

The oxygene isotope allows to determine a place where someone lived.
Not his origin!
Thus, the conclusions of the scientists on the study of isotopes are established on nothing, just on a bad understanding of their results.

The current study said that "Six of the Roman genomes show affinity with modern British Celtic populations, particularly Welsh"
and
one Roman skeleton shows a clear signal of exogenous origin, with affinities pointing towards the Middle East,

I have confidence with this study because the autosomal determines an origin unlike isotopes and unlike haplogroups

avalon
01-22-2016, 01:32 PM
If you are mentioning specifically the areas without individuals sampled in the western fringes of Britain (specifically Wales) then it certainly infers continuity - however the Iron Age individuals were from what is now northern England rather than Wales - so without samples from late Iron Age Wales that can't be said for sure, especially as the Roman (sans near eastern) individuals fit very well with modern Welsh individuals and a little less well with Irish and Scottish individuals.

Personally i think that it is very good evidence of population continuity in western Britain and specifically Wales, especially as they were from the same sort of Celtic (linguistically speaking) background as the Welsh, so it would make sense that the Welsh would be slightly closer to Romano-British individuals than are the Scottish or Irish. Although without aDNA from Wales at or before this period we can't necessarily know that they weren't more Irish-like than they are today, and the higher affinity to lowland Romano-Britons (relative to their Scottish and Irish cousins) is in part due to post-Roman movements into Wales from lowland Britain.

Population continuity in the western parts of the Isles certainly seems to be the name of the game, but not so much in York & surrounds. Although i'd have thought that the key message of the paper is just that - continuity and discontinuity, rather than just one or the other, seeing as direct evidence of discontinuity in one area indirectly evidences continuity in another.

We could really do with some ancient DNA from Wales, unfortunately Wales has always been sparsely populated and I don't think there are that many ancient Welsh remains.

My guess is that there is 'in situ' genetic continuity in Wales from at least the Iron Age tribes that lived there (Ordovices, etc) to the present day population. Wales was under Roman military occupation but it was also one of the least Romanised parts of Britain, as evidenced by the lack of Roman towns and villas.

Of course the other issue is that we know so little about Wales in the period following the collapse of Roman rule. I think it is quite likely that some Romano-Britons fled west under the Saxon advance and then there is also the semi-mythical origin story, in which Cunedda goes to Wales from Scotland and founds the kingdom of Gwynedd.

ArmandoR1b
01-22-2016, 01:32 PM
Granted, modern Polenta is made by maize imtroduced into Europe in the 16th century from South America.

Maize isn't from South America. It's from Mexico and that is where it was introduced from.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-22-2016, 01:49 PM
I suppose it's quite possible some what they were eating wasn't necessarily produced here. They had a popular fish sauce called Garum which seems to have been exported to various places around the Empire, I don't know if it would have come to Britain, but I suppose it's possible. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjj7tWJxr3KAhWGvhQKHWGOCDEQFgggMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGarum&usg=AFQjCNF4GUqSoRuO5TnEjCp30nGV70xfrw&sig2=nNs0pUSYemhHGL4_OimsYA as well as wine, olive oil etc..

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-22-2016, 02:04 PM
Wales did feel some impact from the Roman presence, particularly around the more accessible coastal parts e.g. Caerleon, Caerwent (Silures) etc..


7403

"By my work - Based on Frere's Britannia, Jones' & Mattingly's Atlas of Roman Britain, Davies' Wales in the Early Middle Ages, the Antonine Itinerary, and other sources (roads are incomplete; forts were built/abandoned over time) — sources are cited in the image legendThe topographical map is from a sub-region of File:Uk topo en.jpg, with the copyright notice {{Bild-GFDL-GMT|migration=relicense}} and original date of 7 July 2006, copy made in 2008, with the annotations removed by myself., CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=11349765"

JonikW
01-22-2016, 03:14 PM
Why Devon, may I ask? There already several aDNA published from around Cambridge(i.e. Hinxton and Linton).

I just meant it would be great to have results that were representative of the broad rural longstanding iron age southern British population from an area where we could be confident that it was non Belgic even. Maybe the Welsh borders or Devon, for example. Otherwise we'll always have to wonder whether the DNA is reflecting a possible Germanic admixture from Belgic, other parts of the European empire etc. In that sense the latest results may not be typical of the overall broader population. Still, exciting though, and a good few archaeologists/historians must be getting increasingly apprehensive as old theories that careers have been based on are disproved by aDNA!

MitchellSince1893
01-22-2016, 05:04 PM
Based on the prior Müldner paper that did the isotope analysis, the U152+ sample...

Rich, will you be able see if the U152 sample file has any SNPs below U152?

ADW_1981
01-22-2016, 05:12 PM
The oxygene isotope allows to determine a place where someone lived.
Not his origin!
Thus, the conclusions of the scientists on the study of isotopes are established on nothing, just on a bad understanding of their results.

The current study said that "Six of the Roman genomes show affinity with modern British Celtic populations, particularly Welsh"
and
one Roman skeleton shows a clear signal of exogenous origin, with affinities pointing towards the Middle East,

I have confidence with this study because the autosomal determines an origin unlike isotopes and unlike haplogroups

Except it's unlikely these are Welsh (part of Empire, but why would they all come from here?), Irish, or Highland Scottish men due to the boundaries of the Roman Empire. It's far more likely these men were born in modern "England", or ancient Britain if you will. I suspect it's equally likely they come from former Roman territory on the western portions of the Roman empire, France, Belgium, western Germany possibly even northern Spain. I suspect most of west-central Europe was "Welsh-like", prior to the downward movement of the Germanic migrations who have ancestry which shifts them towards Finland.

vettor
01-22-2016, 06:09 PM
Unless those gladiators were 300 years old (and they were less than 45 years old as we know), they did not spend childhood in BC times.

I stated millet was available to the Romans from BC times...........so these skeletons had access to Roman millet without this fabrication that millet was only available in eastern Europe

angscoire
01-22-2016, 06:09 PM
I just meant it would be great to have results that were representative of the broad rural longstanding iron age southern British population from an area where we could be confident that it was non Belgic even. Maybe the Welsh borders or Devon, for example. Otherwise we'll always have to wonder whether the DNA is reflecting a possible Germanic admixture from Belgic, other parts of the European empire etc. In that sense the latest results may not be typical of the overall broader population. Still, exciting though, and a good few archaeologists/historians must be getting increasingly apprehensive as old theories that careers have been based on are disproved by aDNA!

Put it this way ; NINE of the best known archeologists in the UK -the former regulars of a UK archaeology TV programme - are raving about the Must Farm site in Cambridgeshire on social media ; yet only ONE of them has reported the findings from the Irish Neolithic and Rathlin samples , and NONE have mentioned the Iron Age , Roman and Anglo Saxon data from England .

vettor
01-22-2016, 06:12 PM
No they are saying millet wasn't being consumed

no, they are saying millet was consumed in their childhood but not in there adulthood

vettor
01-22-2016, 06:17 PM
Except it's unlikely these are Welsh (part of Empire, but why would they all come from here?), Irish, or Highland Scottish men due to the boundaries of the Roman Empire. It's far more likely these men were born in modern "England", or ancient Britain if you will. I suspect it's equally likely they come from former Roman territory on the western portions of the Roman empire, France, Belgium, western Germany possibly even northern Spain. I suspect most of west-central Europe was "Welsh-like", prior to the downward movement of the Germanic migrations who have ancestry which shifts them towards Finland.

In aDna , the "welsh like" matches Southern-Germany and Northern-Italy and the alpine in between

R.Rocca
01-22-2016, 06:20 PM
"...falls only just outside the estimated British range, but with higher 18Op than expected, suggesting origins at lower latitude, in a warmer climate, although the possibility of origins in the "warm" south and west of Britain cannot be entirely excluded within the error of the method."

I was able to consolidate the FASTQ files... the U152+ sample is actually U152+L2+FGC22501+.

In line with the isotope analysis pointing to the possibility of a south and west British origin, he also shares seven SNPs with three men from Bristol England and one from Richmond, Surrey, England. I'll add more details on the U152+L2+ thread.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-22-2016, 06:27 PM
I just meant it would be great to have results that were representative of the broad rural longstanding iron age southern British population from an area where we could be confident that it was non Belgic even. Maybe the Welsh borders or Devon, for example. Otherwise we'll always have to wonder whether the DNA is reflecting a possible Germanic admixture from Belgic, other parts of the European empire etc. In that sense the latest results may not be typical of the overall broader population. Still, exciting though, and a good few archaeologists/historians must be getting increasingly apprehensive as old theories that careers have been based on are disproved by aDNA!

"Don't analyse the DNA, it might not fit the theories" :)

MfA
01-22-2016, 06:28 PM
Davidski just shared this PCA plot:


He also posted 3DRIF-26's K15 results:

ID 3DRIF-26
North_Sea 0.02
Atlantic 4.06
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 11.24
West_Asian 10.99
East_Med 46.16
Red_Sea 20.98
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 6.54
Sub-Saharan 0.02

an Egyptian Copt:

North_Sea -
Atlantic 0.57%
Baltic -
Eastern_Euro -
West_Med 12.08%
West_Asian 6.98%
East_Med 47.45%
Red_Sea 20.17%
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 12.75%
Sub-Saharan -

jdean
01-22-2016, 06:29 PM
no, they are saying millet was consumed in their childhood but not in there adulthood

The conversation concerned a paper called 'Stable isotopes and diet: their contribution to Romano-British research'

http://centaur.reading.ac.uk/28535/1/Mueldner_2013_Roman_Diet.pdf

which came to the conclusion millet was not a big part of the British diet.


There are no native C4-cultigens in Britain, and although the first finds of millet date from the Roman period, these are so rare that they have been interpreted as ‘exotic’ imports, rather than widely available crops

Point being if some of these people had been eating a lot of millet in their youth it was unlikely to have happened in Britain

vettor
01-22-2016, 07:42 PM
Point being if some of these people had been eating a lot of millet in their youth it was unlikely to have happened in Britain

now you understand...............they are not from Britain

jdean
01-22-2016, 07:44 PM
Put it this way ; NINE of the best known archeologists in the UK -the former regulars of a UK archaeology TV programme - are raving about the Must Farm site in Cambridgeshire on social media ; yet only ONE of them has reported the findings from the Irish Neolithic and Rathlin samples , and NONE have mentioned the Iron Age , Roman and Anglo Saxon data from England .

To be fair that dig is quite spectacular and will add a lot of meat to hang on the bones of aDNA : )

JonikW
01-22-2016, 08:14 PM
And the real tragedy is that so many resources are still put into intrusive digs (unlike, say, the wonderful site at Borre in Norway where they have decided not to excavate in the hope of better future technology). And all the time there are shelves and shelves of bones in museum backrooms that could unlock the real magic of our past if so many of those who control these things didn't have so much to lose. Still, it's great that these aDNA trickles are fast turning into a stream now. I feel privileged to be witnessing it:)

Radboud
01-22-2016, 08:49 PM
The conversation concerned a paper called 'Stable isotopes and diet: their contribution to Romano-British research'

http://centaur.reading.ac.uk/28535/1/Mueldner_2013_Roman_Diet.pdf

which came to the conclusion millet was not a big part of the British diet.



Point being if some of these people had been eating a lot of millet in their youth it was unlikely to have happened in Britain

Do you know which samples ate a lot of millet in their youth? The R1b U106 samples?

jdean
01-22-2016, 08:55 PM
Do you know which samples ate a lot of millet in their youth? The R1b U106 samples?

3Drif-10 and 6Drif-9, neither of which were included in the DNA analysis unfortunately.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-22-2016, 09:25 PM
I've been a bit confused by this millet issue and how many of the individuals it is relevant to.
This article suggests there was millet and Spelt wheat in Britain during the Iron age, possibly cultivated more in poorer climatic conditions like in the North. You grow what you are able to grow. Also used as animal feed. I think there are also some contemporary Roman references to millet in Britain (possibly unreliable). Could it be possible that local individuals had a poor diet when they were young, but then their diet improved by joining the Roman Army or being selected for something like gladiatorial training or even after enslavement? The same thing happened during WW1 where some men quickly put on weight and height as a result of better army rations than they were used to in civilian life.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjAs8_-p77KAhXGHB4KHVO8CS4QFggfMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fresourcesforhistory.com%2FCeltic_ Farming_in_Britain.htm&usg=AFQjCNGbT68KVmcpblHbOUeoG8o-FO6KCw&sig2=pMJAuNC5chV5dbbjVxpT0w

jdean
01-22-2016, 09:25 PM
now you understand...............they are not from Britain

Perhaps you could read my posts before jumping to conclusions ?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-22-2016, 09:26 PM
Sorry cross-posted.

Arbogan
01-22-2016, 11:43 PM
And the real tragedy is that so many resources are still put into intrusive digs (unlike, say, the wonderful site at Borre in Norway where they have decided not to excavate in the hope of better future technology). And all the time there are shelves and shelves of bones in museum backrooms that could unlock the real magic of our past if so many of those who control these things didn't have so much to lose. Still, it's great that these aDNA trickles are fast turning into a stream now. I feel privileged to be witnessing it:)
They have nothing to lose. Since those bones are only useful for their anthrometric dimensions. It would actually bolster and confirm a lot of history. But like all good things. It takes time. To our dismay. I personally would love to see more near eastern ancestral groups sequenced.

alan
01-22-2016, 11:46 PM
I suspect much of Gael, especially the north, were Welsh-like. Northern Gaul in its broadest sense from Armorica to the Rhine is after all where most prehistoric settlers to the isles came from in virtually all period so it would be amazing if the pre-Roman Britons were not extremely similar in autosomal DNA to the northern Gauls.

Agamemnon
01-23-2016, 12:15 AM
an Egyptian Copt:

North_Sea -
Atlantic 0.57%
Baltic -
Eastern_Euro -
West_Med 12.08%
West_Asian 6.98%
East_Med 47.45%
Red_Sea 20.17%
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 12.75%
Sub-Saharan -

Not exactly surprising either, the analysis of 3DRIF-26's isotope data (in the supplemental notes) did highlight Egypt as the best fit for his geographical origin after all. Nevertheless, I'd be rather surprised if J2 turned out to be a major lineage in Egypt back when 3DRIF-26 was alive, while I wouldn't be surprised to learn that J2 was more common in certain parts of the Arabian peninsula by the past. I think he was probably Nabataean (possibly from the Negev or Sinai).

kingjohn
01-23-2016, 12:26 AM
the only question is why would romans
take a nabataean to fight as gladiator and send him to britain ?
regards
adam

Agamemnon
01-23-2016, 12:36 AM
the only question is why would romans
take a nabataean to fight as gladiator and send him to britain ?
regards
adam

There are many possible scenarios, there were several Nabataean regiments within the Roman auxilia for example, some even volunteered and fought in the arena (the famous "auctorati") and this wasn't by any means a rare occurrence. Alternatively, he might've been a slave. Like I said, there are many possible scenarios.

vettor
01-23-2016, 12:44 AM
Perhaps you could read my posts before jumping to conclusions ?

ditto

rms2
01-23-2016, 12:59 AM
Given the presence of that R1b-DF63 among the Roman remains, it is interesting that a Slovenian R1b-DF63 guy joined the R L21 and Subclades Project this evening. No matches at 111 markers, but two 62/67 matches, one with a French surname and the other with a Slavic-looking surname. No 37-marker matches at all. This man picked up his DF63+ result via the R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Pack from FTDNA.

When I say this man is Slovenian, I mean he is Slovenian, not Slovenian-American, or Slovenian-Canadian, or Slovenian-Australian, etc. Ancestral surname is Kulovec.

rms2
01-23-2016, 01:21 AM
Given the presence of that R1b-DF63 among the Roman remains, it is interesting that a Slovenian R1b-DF63 guy joined the R L21 and Subclades Project this evening. No matches at 111 markers, but two 62/67 matches, one with a French surname and the other with a Slavic-looking surname. No 37-marker matches at all. This man picked up his DF63+ result via the R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Pack from FTDNA.

When I say this man is Slovenian, I mean he is Slovenian, not Slovenian-American, or Slovenian-Canadian, or Slovenian-Australian, etc. Ancestral surname is Kulovec.

I should mention the match with the Slavic-looking surname has tested L21+. Could be DF63+, as well, but the terminal SNP shows as L21. Probably has not been tested for DF63.

ChrisR
01-23-2016, 01:21 AM
I think it's now safe to say that 3DRIF-26 was mainly Arabian in origin, probably Nabataean, from the Negev, Sinai or Harrat el Sham. It's also likely he was born around the Arabian limes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Arabicus). In turn, this probably means that most of the Ancient North Arabian speakers (especially Safaitic, Hismaic, Dumaitic and "Thamudic" tribesmen) were very similar to 3DRIF-26 from a genetic standpoint.
I'm really eager to learn which J2 lineage he carried now.
He should be in the minor J2b lineage: J2b1-M205* with currently no informative match. See my detailed post
exogenous Roman era York 3DRIF-26 is J2b1-M205* and likely Middle Easterner (http://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogenous-roman-era-york-3drif-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/)

Agamemnon
01-23-2016, 02:12 AM
He should be in the minor J2b lineage: J2b1-M205* with currently no informative match. See my detailed post
exogenous Roman era York 3DRIF-26 is J2b1-M205* and likely Middle Easterner (http://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogenous-roman-era-york-3drif-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/)

It's a shame he has no informative match(es), J2b1-M205 seems too broadly Near Eastern to say anything useful as it's found from Bosnia to Oman throughout the Near East and Eastern Mediterranean. Fascinating discovery nonetheless!
Personally, I think it's quite likely his lineage died out, I sure hope I'm wrong though... If not, this certainly suggests that the region's uniparental landscape once was radically different.

Bollox79
01-23-2016, 03:11 AM
anybody manage to tease any additional SNPs out of the two U106 guys (I'm interested since I am U106+ and my small sub-groups cluster in the Isles)... or the L11+ guys like Richard did for the U152+ guy?

Viktor Reznov
01-23-2016, 03:34 AM
It's a shame he has no informative match(es), J2b1-M205 seems too broadly Near Eastern to say anything useful as it's found from Bosnia to Oman throughout the Near East and Eastern Mediterranean. Fascinating discovery nonetheless!
Personally, I think it's quite likely his lineage died out, I sure hope I'm wrong though... If not, this certainly suggests that the region's uniparental landscape once was radically different.

It sure would be nice to get late bronze age(or earlier) samples from Israel/Cna'an.