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R.Rocca
01-22-2016, 07:00 PM
As I posted in the Ancient DNA thread, sample 6DRIF-22 from York and dated ~100-400 AD is U152+L2+FGC22501+. Here are the SNPs below the FGC22501 group he belongs to:

*** Positive:
8093829(A/G)+
7866684(A/G)+
2889012(G/C)+
8141406(A/G)+
17331282(A/G)+
19481839(C/T)+
23354888(C/A)+

*** Unknown (no reads):
14287006(C/A)
3745712(G/T)
5034012(C/T)
14288276(G/A)
19056131(T/A)
22742147(ATT/ATTT)

*** Negative
6013871(A/G)-
13851130(T/G)-
17401242(CATA/CA)- (read length may not be long enough to detect deletions)

His SNP matches below FGC22501 are from three anonymous men from Bristol and kit no. 210621 MDKA John Whiffing (bap. 1766), Richmond, Surrey, England. His Y-DNA matches are in line with what the isotope analysis showed, which is that he could have been born in an area to the south or west of Britain. Closest IBS sharing of sample 6DRIF-22 was with modern day Welsh, Irish and Scots in that order.

jdean
01-22-2016, 07:04 PM
Well done Richard, are you going to have a poke at the others ?

MitchellSince1893
01-22-2016, 07:29 PM
How did I miss that? Oh well. Thanks and great job on the analysis.

MitchellSince1893
01-22-2016, 09:22 PM
As I posted in the Ancient DNA thread, sample 6DRIF-22 from York and dated ~100-400 AD is U152+L2+FGC22501+. Here are the SNPs below the FGC22501 group he belongs to:

*** Positive:
8093829(A/G)+
7866684(A/G)+
2889012(G/C)+
8141406(A/G)+
17331282(A/G)+
19481839(C/T)+
23354888(C/A)+

*** Unknown (no reads):
14287006(C/A)
3745712(G/T)
5034012(C/T)
14288276(G/A)
19056131(T/A)
22742147(ATT/ATTT)

*** Negative
6013871(A/G)-
13851130(T/G)-
17401242(CATA/CA)- (read length may not be long enough to detect deletions)

His SNP matches below FGC22501 are from three anonymous men from Bristol and kit no. 210621 MDKA John Whiffing (bap. 1766), Richmond, Surrey, England. His Y-DNA matches are in line with what the isotope analysis showed, which is that he could have been born in an area to the south or west of Britain. Closest IBS sharing of sample 6DRIF-22 was with modern day Welsh, Irish and Scots in that order.

Using the Yfull-based SNP Estimator excel worksheet and assuming a positive SNP match for 14287006(C/A), 14288276(G/A), 19056131(T/A), and 22742147(ATT/ATTT); that would put R1b-L2 at 1680 to 2256 years before 6DRIF-22.
That seems little too young for R-L2 (Yfull estimates L2 at 4500 ybp) so maybe there are additional novel SNPs for 6DRIF-22. You would need about 4-5 novel SNPs in the ComBED area to put L2 at 4500 ybp.

R.Rocca
01-22-2016, 11:00 PM
Using the Yfull-based SNP Estimator excel worksheet and assuming a positive SNP match for 14287006(C/A), 14288276(G/A), 19056131(T/A), and 22742147(ATT/ATTT); that would put R1b-L2 at 1680 to 2256 years before 6DRIF-22.
That seems little too young for R-L2 (Yfull estimates L2 at 4500 ybp) so maybe there are additional novel SNPs for 6DRIF-22. You would need about 4-5 novel SNPs in the ComBED area to put L2 at 4500 ybp.

The raw data has dozens of other novel SNPs, but it is impossible to decipher which are due to the low amount of reads (~1x). For example, if the first read is derived, but the rest of the reads for that same position on a high quality sample would have given 20 straight ancestral reads, the the consensus would clearly be ancestral, thus ruling that out as a true variant.

Agamemnon
01-22-2016, 11:40 PM
Where does this put FGC22501's TMRCA estimates?

Kwheaton
01-23-2016, 12:50 AM
I want to thank Rich Rocca for his dogged persistence in chasing down the data and uncovering this match. :beerchug:

I went on to Jean Manco's website and I count a total of 7 British Roman Age Y sequenced samples and the 2 Hixton samples from the Iron age. So 9 in total. We have 1 sample RISE563 which is U152 on the continent (Germany). Our project has FGC22501 matches in England, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands and Romania. FGC22501 appeared in a 1K project sample and was named when my husband's Y Elite sample showed a match.

This is an unprecedented in its degree of specificity and although very few understand what this means I am like in DNA heaven. Whiffing has joined the FGC22501 group at FTDNA and is excited as he should be!

The additional information includes this graphic7406

Numbered squares (1-3) represent the 3 best matching populations. You will note that #1 is right where the Bristol and assumed WHEATON progenitor are from. What this suggests is that we will be able to combine ancient DNA samples and current DNA and create a migration pattern that will uncover the past. I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. The odds are astronomical....

As I shared on Facebook I was within .2 of a mile of the recovery site in York this past April---I stayed at a B&B about .4 miles away. I also visited Stogursey, Somerset and Wheddon Cross in Somerset which I believe maybe the WHEATOn homeland in Britain. Upon return I realized that the Wick Barrow Bell Beaker site is within spitting distance of Stogursey---never underestimate the power of following one's nose...

R.Rocca
01-23-2016, 01:30 AM
I want to thank Rich Rocca for his dogged persistence in chasing down the data and uncovering this match. :beerchug:

I went on to Jean Manco's website and I count a total of 7 British Roman Age Y sequenced samples and the 2 Hixton samples from the Iron age. So 9 in total. We have 1 sample RISE563 which is U152 on the continent (Germany). Our project has FGC22501 matches in England, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands and Romania. FGC22501 appeared in a 1K project sample and was named when my husband's Y Elite sample showed a match.

This is an unprecedented in its degree of specificity and although very few understand what this means I am like in DNA heaven. Whiffing has joined the FGC22501 group at FTDNA and is excited as he should be!

The additional information includes this graphic7406

Numbered squares (1-3) represent the 3 best matching populations. You will note that #1 is right where the Bristol and assumed WHEATON progenitor are from. What this suggests is that we will be able to combine ancient DNA samples and current DNA and create a migration pattern that will uncover the past. I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. The odds are astronomical....

As I shared on Facebook I was within .2 of a mile of the recovery site in York this past April---I stayed at a B&B about .4 miles away. I also visited Stogursey, Somerset and Wheddon Cross in Somerset which I believe maybe the WHEATOn homeland in Britain. Upon return I realized that the Wick Barrow Bell Beaker site is within spitting distance of Stogursey---never underestimate the power of following one's nose...

Just one slight adjustment on your note... the #1 represents IBS sharing with Wales... a stone throw away from Bristol, but Wales nonetheless.

MitchellSince1893
01-23-2016, 01:35 AM
Where does this put FGC22501's TMRCA estimates?

FGC222501 (position 3390633) isn't in the ComBed area so on YFull it would be listed as the same age as L2.

Kwheaton
01-23-2016, 03:24 AM
Thanks Rich for the crification on the map point!

Kwheaton
01-24-2016, 01:29 AM
Thanks Rich for the clarification on the map point!

Sorry for the typos.

I wonder if this "gladiator" was part of II Augusta from Caerleon, Wales (9BC-c.300AD) Isca Augusta or Isca Silurum near Newport, Wales? That's precisely where the HOWELL (WHEATONs) lived much later.

R.Rocca
01-25-2016, 02:50 PM
The closest modern population match to the U152+L2+FGC22501+ man is Belgium. (Thanks to Vadim)...
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6263-Genomic-signals-of-migration-and-continuity-in-Britain-before-the-Anglo-Saxons&p=135796&viewfull=1#post135796

Jean M
01-25-2016, 03:11 PM
I wonder if this "gladiator" was part of II Augusta from Caerleon, Wales (9BC-c.300AD) Isca Augusta or Isca Silurum near Newport, Wales? That's precisely where the HOWELL (WHEATONs) lived much later.

The II Augusta was not drawn from the local population in Wales.

The thing to remember is that there was massive population disruption in Britain when the Angles and Saxons arrived in the post-Roman period. Before they arrived there would have been Celtic-speakers all over Britain. http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celtictribes.shtml The Anglo-Saxons pushed Celtic speakers westwards into what is now Wales and the south-West (and from there many left for Brittany). So people living today in Wales may have had ancestors who lived pretty well anywhere in what is now southern and eastern England before the Anglo-Saxon advent.

I fully expected that the strongest Y-DNA signature among the Romano-British would be R1b-L21 and subclades, but I expected R1b-U152 as well, probably from arrivals in the La Tene period and/or the Belgic arrivals in the south from about 125 BC. See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/belgicengland.shtml

So it is no great surprise to find L2+FGC22501+ in a Romano-British gladiator (?) in York - a place now celebrated for its Viking heritage! :)

Kwheaton
01-25-2016, 11:44 PM
Thanks Jean for the elaboration. It seems the atDNA affinity is closest with Belgium (then Wales) and the isotope analysis points to Wales so this individual probably was born and raised in Wales and moved to York whether as soldier or slave or conscripted. Interesting reading the fine details of this burial he and his 2 mates that were buried tigether in what appears to be the same box or coffin had horses/parts buried with them and some small grave goods that were perhpas left atop....perhpas a suggestion of popularity or higher standing???? sOme of these goods and the horses I cannot help but wonder if it ties with similar Celtic burials....

Because he matches two Recent anonymous samples from Bristol and a known WHIFFING down a couple more levels (and one at one level below) The Whiffing can trace back only to Surrey and then at the FGC22501 level we have a HOWELL from Swansea, Newport and Merhyr Tydfil a case can be made that at least one or two ancestors of this gladiator lived/settled in the area of So. Wales. In addition we have some FGC22501 folks who share downstream SNPS like FGC22538. These folks are from Belgium, Germany and England. So we may have waves of FGC22501 migrating to the same area in different time periods. Or the down stream SNPS happened not long after the original FGC22501 and dispersed broadly....

Whatever the real story it does show the amazing times we live in. I nited elsewhere that I stayed this past April in a B&B .4 miles from where this guy was unearthed...and spent several hours under York minister exploring the Roman excavations.

Kwheaton
01-26-2016, 12:45 AM
Video link on the York Gladiators.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/gladiators-back-from-dead/

Jean M
01-26-2016, 11:04 AM
Thanks Jean for the elaboration. It seems the atDNA affinity is closest with Belgium (then Wales) and the isotope analysis points to Wales.

The isotope analysis was originally (in 2011), according to Rich (I haven't read it)

"falls only just outside the estimated British range, but with higher 18Op than expected, suggesting origins at lower latitude, in a warmer climate, although the possibility of origins in the "warm" south and west of Britain cannot be entirely excluded within the error of the method."

But by the time of the present paper (2016), an increased database had broadened the view of what is normal for Britain. This sample is now seen as within the normal range for Britain. There is no particular connection with Wales. The person concerned could have been brought up somewhere rather warmer than York within Britain (Kent? Sussex? Cornwall? Lots of options.) That's all one can say.

Jean M
01-26-2016, 11:09 AM
Because he matches two Recent anonymous samples from Bristol and a known WHIFFING down a couple more levels (and one at one level below) The Whiffing can trace back only to Surrey and then at the FGC22501 level we have a HOWELL from Swansea, Newport and Merhyr Tydfil a case can be made that at least one or two ancestors of this gladiator lived/settled in the area of So. Wales.

Ancient DNA is not descended from modern DNA. It is the other way around. That's the point I'm making.

There is no problem at all explaining how a descendant of the chap beheaded in York or his brother or cousin or other close male relative could have ended up in Wales. He does not need to have an ancestor from Wales.

jdean
01-26-2016, 12:52 PM
The isotope analysis was originally (in 2011), according to Rich (I haven't read it)

"falls only just outside the estimated British range, but with higher 18Op than expected, suggesting origins at lower latitude, in a warmer climate, although the possibility of origins in the "warm" south and west of Britain cannot be entirely excluded within the error of the method."

But by the time of the present paper (2016), an increased database had broadened the view of what is normal for Britain. This sample is now seen as within the normal range for Britain. There is no particular connection with Wales. The person concerned could have been brought up somewhere rather warmer than York within Britain (Kent? Sussex? Cornwall? Lots of options.) That's all one can say.

I did think it a bit odd how much of a U turn they did on the isotopic stuff, I thought they'd coloured the results with the DNA and an assumption L11 pushed everything towards Britain ?

This is the isotopic study BTW

http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mueldner-et-al-2011-Headless-Romans-JAS-Accepted.pdf

Jean M
01-26-2016, 01:47 PM
I did think it a bit odd how much of a U turn they did on the isotopic stuff, I thought they'd coloured the results with the DNA ...

They wouldn't do that. These are two separate types of evidence. (L11 is not exclusive to Britain anyway.) It is not so much a U turn as just a slight expansion of the normal range for Britain which happened to affect the interpretation of this sample.

jdean
01-26-2016, 02:34 PM
They wouldn't do that. These are two separate types of evidence. (L11 is not exclusive to Britain anyway.) It is not so much a U turn as just a slight expansion of the normal range for Britain which happened to affect the interpretation of this sample.

'6Drif-21 and 24 are the two individuals for which a British origin can be firmly excluded.' sounds like a bit more than a slight change : )

Jean M
01-26-2016, 04:41 PM
'6Drif-21 and 24 are the two individuals for which a British origin can be firmly excluded.' sounds like a bit more than a slight change : )

I'm not entirely with you. The individual we are discussing here is 6DRIF-22. Perhaps I need to read the original analysis to see how much changed over all.

jdean
01-26-2016, 05:14 PM
I'm not entirely with you. The individual we are discussing here is 6DRIF-22. Perhaps I need to read the original analysis to see how much changed over all.

Sorry Jean I came into the conversation because of your explanation of the change in opinion from the original isotopic study to the DNA study, Richard's further analysis of the U152 individual is very interesting and I don't want to derail the thread.

The quote regarding 6Drif-21 was just to demonstrate what appears a fairly large shift to 'our sample of the genomes of seven of them, when combined with isotopic evidence, indicate six to be of British origin and one to have origins in the Middle East'

Jean M
01-26-2016, 08:48 PM
I've taken a look at the original isotope report of 2011 now. It says:



A survey of human [symbol]18Op data from archaeological sites in England and Scotland suggests that individuals growing up in Britain should exhibit a range of c. 16.8‰ to 18.6‰ (see Chenery, et al., 2010). Although these values may provide no absolute cut-off points, individuals with [symbol]18Op outside this range are increasingly likely to have moved to Britain from areas with a different climate, abroad. Furthermore, humans from York and surroundings can be expected to plot towards the lower end of the bracket, on account of the most [symbol]18 O-depleted waters in the British Isles being found in Eastern England (Darling et al, 2003). This information is useful in a relative sense (see Chenery et al., 2010), although we do not, at this point, attempt a subdivision of the British range in terms of absolute [symbol]18Op values, since we acknowledge that there are still few empirical data on the magnitude of [symbol]18Op variation in stationary populations as well as through time (but see White et al., 1998; Daux et al., 2005; Chenery et al., 2010).

Only two individuals from 6 Driffield Terrace plot well outside the estimated British range (and further than two standard deviations from the group mean): 6Drif-24 has a much lower [symbol]18Op (14.7‰), indicating a childhood in a significantly cooler climate, at higher altitude or latitude or in a more continental setting (see Dansgaard, 1964). Conversely, 6Drif-21 has a [symbol]18Op of 19.8‰ and probably originated in a warmer region, at lower latitude than Britain. Apart from these two clear outliers, a number of individuals plot on the margin or just outside the estimated U.K. range, on either side of the spectrum (6Drif-04, 14, 15, 20, 23 with slightly lower values, and 6Drif-18, 19, 22 with slightly higher [symbol]18Op than is estimated to be consistent with Britain). Eight individuals (6Drif-01, 02, 06, 07, 08, 09, 12, 17) fall within the core British range for oxygen (see Figure 2).

No enormous difference from the paper giving DNA evidence as well.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-26-2016, 09:44 PM
Thanks Jean for the elaboration. It seems the atDNA affinity is closest with Belgium (then Wales) and the isotope analysis points to Wales so this individual probably was born and raised in Wales and moved to York whether as soldier or slave or conscripted. Interesting reading the fine details of this burial he and his 2 mates that were buried tigether in what appears to be the same box or coffin had horses/parts buried with them and some small grave goods that were perhpas left atop....perhpas a suggestion of popularity or higher standing???? sOme of these goods and the horses I cannot help but wonder if it ties with similar Celtic burials....

Because he matches two Recent anonymous samples from Bristol and a known WHIFFING down a couple more levels (and one at one level below) The Whiffing can trace back only to Surrey and then at the FGC22501 level we have a HOWELL from Swansea, Newport and Merhyr Tydfil a case can be made that at least one or two ancestors of this gladiator lived/settled in the area of So. Wales. In addition we have some FGC22501 folks who share downstream SNPS like FGC22538. These folks are from Belgium, Germany and England. So we may have waves of FGC22501 migrating to the same area in different time periods. Or the down stream SNPS happened not long after the original FGC22501 and dispersed broadly....

Whatever the real story it does show the amazing times we live in. I nited elsewhere that I stayed this past April in a B&B .4 miles from where this guy was unearthed...and spent several hours under York minister exploring the Roman excavations.

The presence of horse remains and decapitation certainly made me think about "local" practices but others here know far more than me on the subject.
I think the suggestion is "Welsh-like" not originating in Wales necessarily. We also have to remember there has been very significant recent migration to South Wales during the industrial revolution. Places like Newport and Swansea would have had relatively small populations before then. One description says Wales was "A country of small towns, villages and isolated farms." My own Howells family came here from the Herefordshire border area.

jdean
01-27-2016, 12:29 AM
The presence of horse remains and decapitation certainly made me think about "local" practices but others here know far more than me on the subject.
I think the suggestion is "Welsh-like" not originating in Wales necessarily. We also have to remember there has been very significant recent migration to South Wales during the industrial revolution. Places like Newport and Swansea would have had relatively small populations before then. One description says Wales was "A country of small towns, villages and isolated farms." My own Howells family came here from the Herefordshire border area.

In the early 19th C. Caerleon was more important than Newport and about the same size, Cardiff wasn't much bigger either !!

You can walk from one side of Caerleon to the other in 3/4 an hour if who've long legs, back then it probably would have taken fifteen minutes : )

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-27-2016, 07:26 AM
I think the population of Merthyr increased from around 8,000 in 1801 to close to 46,000 by 1851 and continued to increase significantly to a peak of 81,000 at the turn of the 20th century. Some came from other parts of Wales of course.

jdean
01-27-2016, 06:28 PM
I think the population of Merthyr increased from around 8,000 in 1801 to close to 46,000 by 1851 and continued to increase significantly to a peak of 81,000 at the turn of the 20th century. Some came from other parts of Wales of course.

I heard somewhere that Merthyr was Tolkien's influence for Mordor which sounds plausible : )

Kwheaton
01-27-2016, 07:54 PM
I heard somewhere that Merthyr was Tolkien's influence for Mordor which sounds plausible : )

These areas were big mining areas and then industries like steel and shipping caused migrations in and out. The HOWELLS I mentioned was a "puddler" and moves between 1851-1861 to Durham where he continues as a puddler. Migration and dispersion do make it hard.

Merthyr means martyr in Welsh.

jdean
01-27-2016, 08:03 PM
These areas were big mining areas and then industries like steel and shipping caused migrations in and out. The HOWELLS I mentioned was a "puddler" and moves between 1851-1861 to Durham where he continues as a puddler. Migration and dispersion do make it hard.

Merthyr means martyr in Welsh.

My paternal grandmother was born in Merthyr. I don't find reason to go there very often but went to look at a plant auction a couple of months ago.

Kwheaton
01-27-2016, 11:02 PM
I'm not entirely with you. The individual we are discussing here is 6DRIF-22. Perhaps I need to read the original analysis to see how much changed over all.

Jean,
From "The 'Headless Romans': Multi-isotope investigations of an unusual burial ground from Roman Britain" http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mueldner-et-al-2011-Headless-Romans-JAS-Accepted.pdf


Only two individuals from 6 Driffield Terrace plot well outside the estimated British range (and further than two standard deviations from the group mean): 6Drif-24 has a much lower
δ18 Op (14.7‰), indicating a childhood in a significantly cooler climate, at higher altitude or latitude or in a more continental setting (see Dansgaard, 1964). Conversely, 6Drif-21 has a
δ18 O p of 19.8‰ and probably originated in a warmer region, at lower latitude than Britain. Apart from these two clear outliers, a number of individuals plot on the margin or just outside
the estimated U.K. range, on either side of the spectrum (6Drif-04, 14, 15, 20, 23 with slightly lower values, and 6Drif-18, 19, 22 with slightly higher δ18 O p than is estimated to be consistent
with Britain). "


Allowing for analytical error and uncertainty about variation in δ18 Op between individuals sharing the same water, 6Drif-04, who exhibits a slightly lower oxygen isotope ratio than commonly found in Britain (16.6‰), could also be included here, although his isotopic profile would equally match a number of areas on the European continent with similar drinking water values, for example in parts of the Gallic or German provinces (IAEA/WISER, 2008, Bentley and Knipper, 2005; Daux et al. 2005). 6Drif-18, 19 and 22 also fall only just outside the estimated British range, but with higher δ 18 Op than expected, suggesting origins at lower latitude, in a warmer climate, although the possibility of origins in the "warm" south and west of Britain cannot be entirely excluded within the error of the method (Darling, et al., 2003, Darling and Talbot, 2003; see also Leach, et al., 2010).

Similarly, among three individuals with almost identical δ18 Op and 87Sr/86Sr (6Drif-18, 19 and 22), 6Drif-18 stands out by his high nitrogen isotope ratio, indicating regular access to foods from a completely different trophic level or environment. These cases illustrate that diversity among the 'Headless Romans' is even greater than would be estimated by oxygen and strontium, the isotopic systems more traditionally employed to assess mobility. Comparisons of the isotope data with the archaeological and osteological information reveal no consistent patterns: geographical origin appears to have had no bearing on whether individuals were decapitated and men from evidently very different geographical regions were buried together in multiple graves (6Drif-19, 22 and δ18 Op outlier 6Drif-21; 6Drif-14, 17 and δ15 N outlier 6Drif-18; 3Drif-16 and 87Sr/86 Sr outlier 3Drif-15, the latter see Montgomery, et al., in press-b). Part-skeletons of horses were deposited with a number of burials, including 6Drif-24 and 6Drif-21, the individuals with the lowest and highest δ18 O p, respectively, but also with the isotopically less remarkable 6Drif-23, for whom an upbringing in York is unlikely but who may well have come from Eastern England or an area with similar water values on the European continent or beyond (see above). If anything, it was therefore not a common origin, but rather the diversity of their backgrounds which was the defining feature for the Driffield Terrace Group.

So a Wales origin for 6Drif-22 is not ruled out, but it also could be in the Belgic---part of Gaul. Also the diversity of the group might suggest that true Roman origins for all are not at all likely and that for whatever reason these men may have been drawn into the the life of a gladiator through diverse paths...it all becomes highly speculative yet intriguing when put together with other known pieces of the puzzle. Where I cannot rule out a continental origin for 6Drif-22 there is enough circumstantial evidence based on his other atDNA and YDNA matches to suspect an origin in Wales.

Kwheaton
01-27-2016, 11:43 PM
I posted this photo taken by me in April of last year in the croft under York Minster.
7506 It mentions the VI the replacing the IX.

Please compare that with this photo from Wiki from Caerleon, Wales

7507

This suggests to me that Legio IX Hispana was at both Caerleon (in Wales) and the last definite attestation of the Ninth: a stone inscription at York dated 108. More on the Legio IX here on Wikihttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_IX_Hispana

Notably
Several inscriptions attesting IX Hispana have been found in the site of the legionary fortress on the lower Rhine river at Noviomagus Batavorum (Nijmegen, Netherlands). These include some tile-stamps (dated 104-20); and a silver-plated bronze pendant, found in the 1990s, which was part of a phalera (military medal), with "LEG HISP IX" inscribed on the reverse.[12] In addition, an altar to Apollo, dating from this period, was found at nearby Aquae Granni (Aachen, Germany), erected in fulfillment of a vow, by Lucius Latinius Macer, who describes himself as primus pilus (chief centurion) and as praefectus castrorum ("prefect of the camp", i.e. third-in-command) of IX Hispana.[13] (it was commonplace for chief centurions, on completion of their single-year term of office, to be promoted to praefectus castrorum).

The archaeological evidence thus appears to indicate that elements of IX Hispana were present at Noviomagus sometime after 104 (when the previous incumbent legion, X Gemina, was transferred to the Danube) and that IX was probably replaced by a detachment of legion XXX Ulpia Victrix not long after AD 120.[14] Less clear is whether the whole IX legion was at Nijmegen or simply a detachment. The evidence for the presence of senior officers such as Macer convinced several scholars that the Ninth Legion as a whole was based there between 121 and 130.[2] It may have been both, first a detachment, which was later followed by the rest of the legion: a vexillatio Britannica ("British detachment") is also attested at Nijmegen in this period.[15] However, it is unclear whether this detachment was drawn from the IX Hispana (and its attached auxiliary regiments) alone, or from a mix of various British-based units.

So it seems that we are not far off the truth in these matters.

And I cannot explain why I was drawn to these ruins and chose to photograph this particular display---Synchronicity????

jdean
01-28-2016, 01:08 AM
Might be missing something but the one appears to refer to the 9th Spanish Legion and the other to a 6th somthing or other Legion ?

Kwheaton
01-28-2016, 01:22 AM
Might be missing something but the one appears to refer to the 9th Spanish Legion and the other to a 6th somthing or other Legion ?

Yes maybe the verbiage is hard to read. The 6th replaced the 9th in York. On the wiki page for the 9th it shows the similar 9th inscription at Caerleon, Wales---so it appears that the 9th was at some point in Wales before/after it was in York. The point being that a connection to Wales is not only plausible but there is real evidence for it.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-28-2016, 07:58 AM
but isn't the point that Legionaries recruited in Britain wouldn't have served in Britain, according to those who know more than me? If this is correct, then it seems unlikely that they were soldiers. It would interest me if there was an early Welsh connection but I can't really see it myself. The rest of Britain would probably have been as genetically "Welsh" as Wales is now, probably more so. Just my thoughts anyway. :)

jdean
01-28-2016, 10:51 AM
Yes maybe the verbiage is hard to read. The 6th replaced the 9th in York. On the wiki page for the 9th it shows the similar 9th inscription at Caerleon, Wales---so it appears that the 9th was at some point in Wales before/after it was in York. The point being that a connection to Wales is not only plausible but there is real evidence for it.

That'll teach me to post that late at night : )

According to both wiki and Caerleon.net the legion posted there was the Second Legion Augusta.

WRT isotopes (a subject I knew nothing about before this study came out and probably know next to nothing now). From what I can gather one of the variables effecting Oxygen-18 is how much it rains and it does rain a lot in Wales, and that's putting it mildly !!! 6Driff-22 pulled to the right for Oxygen-18 which was the same direction as 3Drif-26, which to my simplistic way of looking at things (plus not having anything else to go on) suggests he came from a drier environment.

Not sure if it's relevant but Wales also has extremely soft water, kettles don't fur up and we even have our own brand of tea designed to take advantage of this which you will struggle to find elsewhere

http://www.glengettietea.co.uk/

Of course that probably doesn't effect these isotopes anyway but that said is there enough/any Roman Welsh isotopic studies to make comparisons with ?

Jean M
01-28-2016, 11:15 AM
So a Wales origin for 6Drif-22 is not ruled out, but it also could be in the Belgic---part of Gaul.

There was quite a lot of discussion on this thread about the isotope study after my first post, as you will see. The original isotope analysis is outdated, as the new paper explains. There is no reason now to think that 6Drif-22 came from outside Britain. But there is no specific connection with Wales.

Today of course Wales is a separate country from England and distinctly different in many ways. But in Roman times there was one culture over the whole of Roman Britain. Your husband's ancestors would have been every bit as Celtic if they lived in Kent as if they lived in Caerleon.

Jean M
01-28-2016, 11:28 AM
Also the diversity of the group might suggest that true Roman origins for all are not at all likely and that for whatever reason these men may have been drawn into the the life of a gladiator through diverse paths..

Gladiators? We don't know that they were. It is a strange cemetery. I'm not surprised that the archaeologists cannot make up their minds about it. It is part of an otherwise high-status cemetery.

I agree that it is highly unlikely that the people in this odd cemetery actually came from Italy. Most of the people of Roman Britain were Britons. Most of the people in the Roman legions in Britain were not Britons, but neither were they from Italy. The top tier of the governing elite would have been Roman citizens, but of course one could be a Roman citizen with an origin outside Italy. The number of people in Roman Britain who actually had long-established ancestry from Italy was probably a very small percentage.

Jean M
01-28-2016, 11:41 AM
York Archaeological Trust, Piecing together the gruesome story of York’s headless Romans
https://www.york.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2016/research/headless-romans/



University of York archaeological scientists were part of an international team that used cutting edge genome technology to cast more light on a mystery that has perplexed archaeologists for more than a decade.

The researchers exploited the origins of a set of Roman-age decapitated bodies, found by York Archaeological Trust (YAT) at Driffield Terrace in the city, and found they included a Middle Eastern body alongside native Europeans.

Archaeologists have speculated that the skeletons belonged to gladiators, although they could also have been soldiers or criminals. Several suffered perimortem decapitation and were all of a similar age – under 45 years old. Their skulls were buried with the body, although not positioned consistently – some were on the chest, some within the legs, and others at the feet.

Though examining the skeletons revealed much about their lives – including childhood deprivation and injuries consistent with battle trauma – it was the pioneering genomic analysis that helped researchers to piece together the origins of the men. The research is published in Nature Communications.

From the skeletons of more than 80 individuals, seven were selected for whole genome analyses. Despite variations in isotope values which suggested that some of the individuals lived their early lives outside Britain, most had genomes which were similar to an earlier Iron Age woman from Melton, East Yorkshire. The poor childhood health of the men suggests they were from disadvantaged households, though their robust skeletons and healed traumas, indicate that they were used to wielding weapons. ... The Roman burial samples were all male, under 45 years old and most had evidence of decapitation. They were taller than average for Roman Britain and displayed evidence of significant trauma potentially related to interpersonal violence.

The demographic profile of the York skeletons resembles the population structure in a Roman burial ground believed to be for gladiators at Ephesus. But the evidence could also fit with a military context -- the Roman army had a minimum recruitment height and fallen soldiers would match the age profile of the York cemetery.

Jean M
01-28-2016, 11:48 AM
The Roman army in York http://www.historyofyork.org.uk/themes/the-roman-army-in-york


Over a period of about 300 years York was home to thousands of Roman soldiers. The fortress was built to house a legion, or about 5,000 men. Two different legions were based here:

The Ninth Legion Hispana

The founders of the fortress were the Ninth Legion - originally created by Julius Ceasar and called 'Hispana' after their campaigns in what is now northern Spain. The Ninth took part in the invasion of Britain in 43 AD under the command of Emperor Claudius. About eighteen years later they fought to suppress the uprising of native Britains led by Queen Boudica. Then, in 71 AD, the legion marched north and built the first fortress on the site that was to become known as Eboracum, Roman York. The Ninth stayed in York for around fifty years ...

The Sixth Legion Victrix

The Sixth Legion Victrix ('victorious') came to Britain with a great fighting history behind them, which included surviving the siege of Alexandria under the command of Julius Caesar, so protecting Cleopatra.

But the Roman Army weren't just great warriors, they were great engineers too and in second century Britain the Sixth made its mark on the landscape. As well as building the eastern portion of Hadrian's Wall, the Sixth also built the first Tyne Bridge at Pons Aelius (Newcastle). In the middle of the century they worked on the Antonine Wall, which was further north than Hadrian's wall but soon abandoned. In York too the Sixth made huge structural changes, building much of the city in stone, including the basilica and the city walls.

The Sixth Legion stayed until the end of Roman York; so that was the legion that fought with and witnessed the death of the emperor Severus in 211 and it was soldiers of the Sixth who changed the course of history by proclaiming Constantine emperor in 306.

The cemetery at Driffield Terrace would fall into the period of the Sixth Legion Victrix.

Jean M
01-28-2016, 12:06 PM
However the local legion would not have contained local recruits. Auxiliary troops could be recruited from among non-Roman citizens, but Roman policy generally was to employ non-Roman recruits away from their homelands.

The Cohors Primae Cornoviorum, recruited from the Cornovii, is the only British unit recorded as serving in the Roman army in Britain. They are noted at Pons Aeli [Newcastle] on Hadrian's Wall in the last years of Roman rule in Britain.

jdean
01-28-2016, 12:23 PM
However the local legion would not have contained local recruits. Auxiliary troops could be recruited from among non-Roman citizens, but Roman policy generally was to employ non-Roman recruits away from their homelands.

The Cohors Primae Cornoviorum, recruited from the Cornovii, is the only British unit recorded as serving in the Roman army in Britain. They are noted at Pons Aeli [Newcastle] on Hadrian's Wall in the last years of Roman rule in Britain.

The trouble with all of this is it's all so contradictory and confusing : )

As you say legionaries wouldn't have been local but gladiators are unlikely to end up in high status graves.

I suppose it's possible that some could have achieved enough notoriety/respect to be rewarded in this way but some of these were adolescents. Also one of the bits of evidence that has been used to support the gladiator idea was the fellow who looked to have been attacked by a large predator which fitted with a bestiarius, however these poor fellows were the lowest of the low in the gladiator world who were quite literally thrown to the lions so again it would seem odd to then honour such an individual with a proper burial.

Personally I'm still not convinced these people really were as local as the paper concluded.

MitchellSince1893
01-28-2016, 03:12 PM
Makes you wonder how many children were born to these soldiers for over 3 centuries of occupation, and what percentage of their y-dna descendants make up Britain today. I've read many times that the Roman genetic impact on Britain was minor, which may be true overall, especially if limited to men from present day Italy; but, as Roman soldiers in Britain came from all over the empire, I wonder how many of these assumed "Celtic", "Belgic", "Germanic", "Anglo-Saxon", and/or "Scandinavian" haplogroup descendants, may actually have been descendants of Roman forces concentrated in certain areas for several decades.

As to the status of these children, in The Frontier People of Roman Britain, it states
Under the empire children born during the military service of their father were illegitimate, and therefore followed the status of their mothers. The Severan reform reversed both of these consequences. Finally, from A.D. 212 they were all citizens under Constitutio Antoniniana.
The Severan reform would have occurred some time between 193 and 211 AD.

As the terminal branches of the Y-DNA tree become identified we may, in the not too distant future, be able to say that this or that branch originated in a certain geographic area and therefore it's presence in England, in all likelihood occurred during this period.

For example: a branch of U106 (several SNPs down) is estimated to have originated in Batavia circa 50 AD, as the majority of descendants originated in present day Netherlands, Belgium, and Yorkshire, we may surmise it's associated with Roman occupation.

This is already occurring on my own branch Y3140, albeit further back in time; where Yfull estimates TMRCA was 1700 BC with members from France, the Netherlands, Italy, Spain, and Britain. If Yfull's date is in the ball park then this would be a post-Bell Beaker SNP. We might also theorize the origination of this SNP may have been north of the Alps based on what we presently know about the location of the Pre/Proto Celts that ended up in these areas of Europe.

On my present terminal SNP Y9080, we currently have 3 members of British origin and 1 from Italy. TMRCA for this branch is estimated at 1200 BC. So this branch may have expanded during the Iron Age e.g. Hallstatt or La Tene.

Kwheaton
01-28-2016, 03:19 PM
Jean,
Thanks for all the posts. it really does not matter to me where the 6Drif-22 man was from or whether he was a gladiator or not. That is, if he was an Italian soldier or a Descendent of a conscripted or joined Celtic warrior from Gaul who ends up in Wales and then begets an offspring who ends up in York. I have no agenda per se. If he turned out to be a slave from Hadrian's wall area that's okay too.

I am looking at this from a slightly different perspective. And with a set of data that pulls me in the direction of the Bristol Channel. Either this individual spent time there or his ancestors did OR the deacendants of his cousins and their descendants did. It may be just a "series" of coincidences but as they stack up it looks less and less like a coincidence. I have no problem being wrong and I tend to go on something more akin to instinct.

Rich Rocca and I speculated about a Roman soldier scenario a couple of years ago so that fit with one of our scenarios.

I tend to think that 6Drif-22 was likely born in the Isles and I would guess he is the offspring of someone who came with the Roman army and married locally (in this case my guess is in the vicinity of Caerleon). i also would take a wild guess and think this person/ family might be conncted in some way with the breeding and raising of horses or with charioteers. Again wild speculation on my part. It could even be as a boy 6Drif-22 was a stable hand who ends up in York attendeding to the warriors and then gets involved in something else.

As far as the 6th and the 9th. We have a very sketchy outline of their movements and with the 9th we have a debated mystery of where they went or ended up including the possibility that it was back in the Netherlands. I think that in itself is a bit curious and that their mark (so to speak) is left in Caerleon.

The isotope evidence does not rule out a life in Britania. The atDNA suggests the closest affinity with current day Belgium and then Wales. This is consistent with our FGC22501 matches from SE Wales, Bristol Engalnd and Belgium. The biggest question mark that remains in my mind is whether these matches seperate downstream of FGC22501 on the continent and yet end up in the same area. The closest current day match with numerous downstream SNPS shared with 6Drif-22 is he a more recent transplant to Surrey or is this part of the DNA trail. This match also has the same shared downstream SNPS with 2 anonymous Bristol area samples and an upstream match with another Bristol area sample who is FGC22501+ The fact that we have a branching structure in this area (Bristol) and it is connected to 6Drif-22 reinforces the theory that these SNPS may have been carried to the area in the Roman era and not later on. I do however think it is possible that the branch that my husband is on below FGC22501 may have come later perhpas with the Normans but represents the same roots in Gaul and the same Flemish overlay.

In my genealogical research I am always trying to create a story that would explain the data. Sometimes I am wildly off base but more often than not I get pretty darn close. wHen I first started the WHEATON DNA project I recruited a WHEATON in England who believed their roots lay in Devon where I thought ours did. When the DNA results came in neither matched. He was Haplogroup I and my husband was R. So I went looking for answers and looked at the genealogical record and speculated even down to picking out a possible ancestor who happened to be shephard and connecting him with a shephard that connected up with the village of WHEATON-ASTON in Staffordshire (far from Surrey) where her brick wall lay. And guess what it ended up that he did get very close DNA matches that were within a couple of miles of Wheaton-Aston and even one surnamed Wheaton. And then after extensive DNA testing of WHEATONs in Devon we end up with 6 additional DNA lines that do not appear to be NPE's but rather separate name adoptions that are geographically specific going back to the 1300's. So my point is that a combination of hunches and evidence constantly informs my storyline and I constantly find myself tweaking and revising but over times some elements become clearer.

My trip last Spring to England was purely speculative...I visited about 20 parish churches in Devon and Somerset and my only guide is that there were pre 1620 Wheatons or a derivitive in the parish record. Some went back as early as the 1300's. And all I was looking for was a feeling--- a connection with where the immigrant Robert settled in America and that came not in the most beautiful parish or the oldest. But it came when the topography was akin to that where Robert made his home. And that topography is also coincicentally? simialr to the Lowlands on the Continent. The trip to York had nothing to do with the WHEATONS but rather a putative ancestor on my father's side who was imprisoned in York and sent to the colonies. I was not so far from the FGC22501 there and so the reasons sometimes make sense further down the road. I follow my nose and it has led me to the exact farm that Robert Wheaton owned in the early 1699's. We were driving along Wheaton Ave and I asked my husband to pull over so I could take a photo of a pastoral scene. A lady came out of her house from across the road and asked if she could help me. I explained about Robert Wheaton and she said, "Oh this is the old Wheaton farm." My hsuband is the fire cheif he knows all about it....come back in an hour and.....I coukd have stopped at any point in the several mile road yet I stopped in the driveway of the old WHEATON farm.

So I tend toward the unorthodox and I might be a smidgen crazy but it works for me!

R.Rocca
01-28-2016, 03:24 PM
Makes you wonder how many children were born to these soldiers for over 3 centuries of occupation, and what percentage of their y-dna descendants make up Britain today. I've read many times that the Roman genetic impact on Britain was minor, which may be true overall, especially if limited to soldiers from present day Italy; but, as Roman soldiers in Britain came from all over the empire, I wonder how many of these assumed "Celtic", "Belgic", "Germanic", "Anglo-Saxon", and/or "Scandinavian" haplogroup descendants, may actually have been descendants of Roman forces concentrated in certain areas for several decades.

As to the status of these children, in The Frontier People of Roman Britain it states
The Severan reform would have occurred some time between 193 and 211 AD.

As I mentioned in another thread, Legio VI Victrix was stationed in York for the entire duration of the radiocarbon date of 100-400 AD and was transferred there from Germania Inferior...

http://www.romeacrosseurope.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/detail-germania-inferior.jpg

Given the Low Countries' strength of R-U106/R-DF19 and the continental nature of R-U152+L2+, it makes one wonder if a new batch of locals didn't get recruited to take the trip to York before they left Germania Inferior.

Kwheaton
01-28-2016, 03:36 PM
Makes you wonder how many children were born to these soldiers for over 3 centuries of occupation, and what percentage of their y-dna descendants make up Britain today. I've read many times that the Roman genetic impact on Britain was minor, which may be true overall, especially if limited to soldiers from present day Italy; but, as Roman soldiers in Britain came from all over the empire, I wonder how many of these assumed "Celtic", "Belgic", "Germanic", "Anglo-Saxon", and/or "Scandinavian" haplogroup descendants, may actually have been descendants of Roman forces concentrated in certain areas for several decades.

As to the status of these children, in The Frontier People of Roman Britain it states
The Severan reform would have occurred some time between 193 and 211 AD.

As the terminal branches of the Y-DNA tree become identified we may, in the not too distant future, be able to say that this or that branch originated in a certain geographic area and therefore it's presence in England, in all likelihood occurred during this period.

For example: a branch of U106 (several SNPs down) is estimated to have originated in Batavia circa 50 AD, as the majority of descendants originated in present day Netherlands, Belgium, and Yorkshire, we may surmise it's associated with Roman occupation.

This is already occurring on my own branch Y3140, albeit further back in time; where Yfull estimates TMRCA was 1700 BC with members from France, the Netherlands, Italy, Spain, and Britain. If Yfull's date is in the ball park then this would be a post-Bell Beaker SNP. We might also theorize the origination of this SNP may have been north of the Alps based on what we presently know about the location of the Pre/Proto Celts that ended up in these areas of Europe.

I agree!

Kwheaton
01-28-2016, 03:42 PM
As I mentioned in another thread, Legio VI Victrix was stationed in York for the entire duration of the radiocarbon date of 100-400 AD and was transferred there from Germania Inferior...

http://www.romeacrosseurope.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/detail-germania-inferior.jpg

Given the Low Countries' strength of R-U106/R-DF19 and the continental nature of R-U152+L2+, it makes one wonder if a new batch of locals didn't get recruited to take the trip to York before they left Germania Inferior.

Another possibility....and I wonder how many stayed put the whole time and how many times a regiment was off over there requistioning suplies, horses, slaves etc or how much movement happened between forts messengers etc. lIke everything else having to do with humans its not likely to be a simple answer.

MitchellSince1893
01-28-2016, 03:51 PM
...Again wild speculation on my part...In my genealogical research I am always trying to create a story that would explain the data. Sometimes I am wildly off base but more often than not I get pretty darn close...So I tend toward the unorthodox and I might be a smidgen crazy but it works for me!

If I were in your shoes I also would be very excited and doing the exact same thing...you can't help it.

We are learning information about our ancestors that no one dreamed was even possible a few years ago.

rms2
01-28-2016, 03:58 PM
As I mentioned in another thread, Legio VI Victrix was stationed in York for the entire duration of the radiocarbon date of 100-400 AD and was transferred there from Germania Inferior...

http://www.romeacrosseurope.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/detail-germania-inferior.jpg

Given the Low Countries' strength of R-U106/R-DF19 and the continental nature of R-U152+L2+, it makes one wonder if a new batch of locals didn't get recruited to take the trip to York before they left Germania Inferior.

That makes perfect sense, especially since, as I also mentioned over on that same thread, foreign auxiliaries in Roman service were not permitted to serve in their home regions. So a move from Germania Inferior to Britannia would be right in line with standard operating procedure for new native recruits.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-28-2016, 05:26 PM
Sorry, duplicate post.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-28-2016, 05:30 PM
That makes perfect sense, especially since, as I also mentioned over on that same thread, foreign auxiliaries in Roman service were not permitted to serve in their home regions. So a move from Germania Inferior to Britannia would be right in line with standard operating procedure for new native recruits.

Just playing devil's advocate, given the geographical proximity could origin amongst the Belgae in Britain be a possibility? Didn't they have some association with Somerset? If they were Roman soldiers, why the decapitation, unless it reflects some sort of ethnic ritual practice? I must admit personal curiosity as I'm U106 and apparently have a match (not many around) in Belgium.

rms2
01-28-2016, 05:41 PM
Just playing devil's advocate, given the geographical proximity could origin amongst the Belgae in Britain be a possibility? If they were Roman soldiers, why the decapitation, unless it reflects some sort of ethnic ritual practice? I must admit personal curiosity as I'm U106 and apparently have a match (not many around) in Belgium.

That is a possibility, but I personally doubt there was much if any U106 among the Belgae. Look at the U106 versus P312 cline in modern Belgium. The former is elevated among Flemish speakers but declines among the Walloons, who speak French, while the reverse is true of P312. That is the old Germanic/Gallo-Roman divide showing up in y-dna.

I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt the ancient pre-Roman Britons were as diverse as this group of soldiers or gladiators or whatever they were. Some diversity? Yes, but this group is a little too diverse. I don't even think the two L21+ guys have y-dna origins in Britain, especially not the DF63 guy. Just my opinion.

And the combination of U106, DF19, and U152 looks just a little too much like a bit of the Germania Inferior y-haplogroup profile.

faulconer
01-28-2016, 05:49 PM
As I mentioned in another thread, Legio VI Victrix was stationed in York for the entire duration of the radiocarbon date of 100-400 AD and was transferred there from Germania Inferior...

http://www.romeacrosseurope.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/detail-germania-inferior.jpg

Given the Low Countries' strength of R-U106/R-DF19 and the continental nature of R-U152+L2+, it makes one wonder if a new batch of locals didn't get recruited to take the trip to York before they left Germania Inferior.

I find the Batavi history very interesting when investigating the U106 and DF19 Roman burial remains.

1. We know that there were Batavi in York at the right time period.
2. The only tested remains with horse bones, included in a single grave, (as far as I know) was DF19+.
3. Batavi have a known tradition of including horse bones in burials.
4. Although I am not sure if there is any basis to it, I have read that some speculated that Batavi, although classified as Germanic, may not have spoken a Germanic language.

That would be a nice fit with DF19 as it's a subclade of P312 which seems to be more associated with the Celtic peoples. Clearly there is no strong evidence to support a link, but I find some of this information interesting while pondering the possibilities.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianBatavi.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavi_(Germanic_tribe)

jdean
01-28-2016, 06:02 PM
2. The only tested remains with horse bones, included in a single grave, (as far as I know) was DF19+.

6DRIF-21 was buried with 6DRIF-22 (also 6DRIF-24 who wasn't included in the DNA paper), a part skeleton of a horse was also in the grave.

R.Rocca
01-28-2016, 06:04 PM
That is a possibility, but I personally doubt there was much if any U106 among the Belgae. Look at the U106 versus P312 cline in modern Belgium. The former is elevated among Flemish speakers but declines among the Walloons, who speak French, while the reverse is true of P312. That is the old Germanic/Gallo-Roman divide showing up in y-dna.

I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt the ancient pre-Roman Britons were as diverse as this group of soldiers or gladiators or whatever they were. Some diversity? Yes, but this group is a little too diverse. I don't even think the two L21+ guys have y-dna origins in Britain, especially not the DF63 guy. Just my opinion.

And the combination of U106, DF19, and U152 looks just a little too much like a bit of the Germania Inferior y-haplogroup profile.

I'm of the opposite opinion. Just like U106 likely caused a language shift in England, it likely caused a language shift away from Gaulish to form the Belgae, which seem like a hybridized Celto-Germanic people. Perhaps what they were lacking in was significant R1a/I1/I2a2.

faulconer
01-28-2016, 06:07 PM
6DRIF-21 was buried with 6DRIF-22 (also 6DRIF-24 who wasn't included in the DNA paper), a part skeleton of a horse was also in the grave.

Right, I specified "included in single grave" as I am not sure we can tie the meaning of the horse bone to one of the remains in the grave.

rms2
01-28-2016, 06:08 PM
I'm of the opposite opinion. Just like U106 likely caused a language shift in England, it likely caused a language shift away from Gaulish to form the Belgae, which seem like a hybridized Celto-Germanic people. Perhaps what they were lacking in was significant R1a/I1/I2a2.

Belgic tribal names and their leaders' names were all Celtic. That is one of the reasons I doubt they had much if any U106. I think the confusion over a supposed Germanic element is down to what Caesar wrote about the Belgae.

I think the Belgae were probably mostly U152, DF27, L21, DF19, and maybe DF99. That's diverse enough!

Those Iron Age remains from Hinxton were squarely in the territory of the Belgic Catuvellauni, and they were L21+.

jdean
01-28-2016, 06:11 PM
Right, I specified "included in single grave" as I am not sure we can tie the meaning of the horse bone to one of the remains in the grave.

Sorry missed that but do we need to assume the horse was linked to one, why not all of them ?

rms2
01-28-2016, 06:17 PM
6DRIF-21 was buried with 6DRIF-22 (also 6DRIF-24 who wasn't included in the DNA paper), a part skeleton of a horse was also in the grave.

6DRIF-21 was the DF63+ man.

The Celtic horse/fertility goddess Epona was popular among the Romans. I wonder if her cult had anything to do with those horse bones.

faulconer
01-28-2016, 06:20 PM
Sorry missed that but do we need to assume the horse was linked to one, why not all of them ?

That's a good point. When I went through the list of remains with horse bones, I eliminated any that were in "box graves" because I couldn't assume it was tied to one or some or all of the remains.

jdean
01-28-2016, 06:24 PM
6DRIF-21 was the DF63+ man.

The Celtic horse/fertility goddess Epona was popular among the Romans. I wonder if her cult had anything to do with those horse bones.

According to the wiki article on Epona there are remnants from the cult in preserved British traditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epona#In_Great_Britain

faulconer
01-28-2016, 06:28 PM
6DRIF-21 was the DF63+ man.

The Celtic horse/fertility goddess Epona was popular among the Romans. I wonder if her cult had anything to do with those horse bones.

From what I have read, the Batavi were very closely connected with the horse. I don't think that rules out other cultures in any way. I do think it's an interesting connection though considering their connection with the Romans and York at that time period.


"Finds of horse skeletons in graves suggest a strong equestrian preoccupation." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavi_(Germanic_tribe)

"c.4 BC The Batavi are certainly conquered by Rome by this date (and perhaps a decade earlier) and become subjects of the empire. None of their rulers are known, but two Batavian figures of importance do feature in Roman history in the first century AD. The tribe also supplies troop units to the empire, with some of them receiving notable mentions for their ability to cross rivers on horseback in full armour."

"43 When the Roman empire invades Britain, Batavi mounted troops are key to the victory at the Battle of the Medway in the territory of the Cantii and in the later heavy losses suffered by the Britons near the Thames. Both Roman victories are due to the Batavi ability to cross bodies of water on horseback, in full armour, and without any significant disruption to their formation. It is clearly an ability the British have not seen before."

"2nd-3rd century
Batavi serve in the Roman army on many of the empire's borders, most notably on Hadrian's Wall in Britain, where several altars and tombstones are later found. By this time the Batavi are thoroughly converted as Roman citizens, and may have been so within a few decades of their subjugation by Rome."
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianBatavi.htm

R.Rocca
01-28-2016, 07:10 PM
Belgic tribal names and their leaders' names were all Celtic. That is one of the reasons I doubt they had much if any U106. I think the confusion over a supposed Germanic element is down to what Caesar wrote about the Belgae.

I think the Belgae were probably mostly U152, DF27, L21, DF19, and maybe DF99. That's diverse enough!

Those Iron Age remains from Hinxton were squarely in the territory of the Belgic Catuvellauni, and they were L21+.

An envoy said the Belgae had crossed the Rhine from Germany, which does not mean they were Germanic speakers... and I wasn't contesting the Celtic portion of the Belgae, but was pointing to the Germanic substrate that was supposed to have influenced the Belgae's language from the third century BC.

Jean M
01-28-2016, 08:00 PM
the Germanic substrate that was supposed to have influenced the Belgae's language from the third century BC.

?? Not heard of this. Would be very interested in a source.

rms2
01-28-2016, 08:16 PM
From what I have read, the Batavi were very closely connected with the horse. I don't think that rules out other cultures in any way. I do think it's an interesting connection though considering their connection with the Romans and York at that time period.


"Finds of horse skeletons in graves suggest a strong equestrian preoccupation." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavi_(Germanic_tribe)

"c.4 BC The Batavi are certainly conquered by Rome by this date (and perhaps a decade earlier) and become subjects of the empire. None of their rulers are known, but two Batavian figures of importance do feature in Roman history in the first century AD. The tribe also supplies troop units to the empire, with some of them receiving notable mentions for their ability to cross rivers on horseback in full armour."

"43 When the Roman empire invades Britain, Batavi mounted troops are key to the victory at the Battle of the Medway in the territory of the Cantii and in the later heavy losses suffered by the Britons near the Thames. Both Roman victories are due to the Batavi ability to cross bodies of water on horseback, in full armour, and without any significant disruption to their formation. It is clearly an ability the British have not seen before."

"2nd-3rd century
Batavi serve in the Roman army on many of the empire's borders, most notably on Hadrian's Wall in Britain, where several altars and tombstones are later found. By this time the Batavi are thoroughly converted as Roman citizens, and may have been so within a few decades of their subjugation by Rome."
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianBatavi.htm

I think that DF63 man's y-dna wasn't native Briton either. That was part of my point. He could have been of Batavian y-dna origin himself.

faulconer
01-28-2016, 08:20 PM
I think that DF63 man's y-dna wasn't native Briton either. That was part of my point. He could have been of Batavian y-dna origin himself.

I agree. I doubt that Batavian DNA consisted of one y-dna haplogroup at that time.

zamyatin13
01-28-2016, 08:58 PM
On the subject of horse bones in graves, there is an almost an exact match from remains found in London's Walbrook.


Several hundred late iron age or early Roman crania (from a population that must have numbered in thousands) have been found in wet places – stream channels, wells, ponds and ditches – in and around the Walbrook. These skulls, predominantly of young males, are sometimes found with human long bones and horse bones http://www.archaeologyuk.org/ba/ba122/feat1.shtml

There is already a lot of speculation that these are gladiators:


https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jan/15/london-skulls-roman-head-hunters

This doesn't immediately suggest a tribal link, but rather a common burial rite for gladiators (if that's indeed what they were).

The only dna we have from this so far is the J1b1a1 mtdna from one of the 'gladiators'. This doesn't rule out a Batavian or German origin actually, and indeed I believe the report speculated that he could be from further east in Europe.

MitchellSince1893
01-28-2016, 09:14 PM
So maps like this one that show the Germanic people's expansion into Belgica, Batavia and other areas West of the Rhine by the 1st Century AD

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_0uhBPQkjTFM/TYzn3Jud6LI/AAAAAAAANpY/i73Dp_xc6wI/Germanic_expansion%5B1%5D_thumb%5B2%5D.gif?imgmax= 800

Or this one showing where Germanic languages was spoken in 1 AD are just wrong?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Germanic_dialects_ca._AD_1.png

And that Tacitus was wrong when he stated "the tribes which first crossed the Rhine and drove out the Gauls, and are now called Tungrians, were then called Germani"?

rms2
01-28-2016, 09:20 PM
So maps like this one that show the Germanic people's expansion into Belgica, Batavia and other areas West of the Rhine by the 1st Century AD are just wrong?

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_0uhBPQkjTFM/TYzn3Jud6LI/AAAAAAAANpY/i73Dp_xc6wI/Germanic_expansion%5B1%5D_thumb%5B2%5D.gif?imgmax= 800


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Germanic_dialects_ca._AD_1.png

And that Tacitus was wrong when he stated "the tribes which first crossed the Rhine and drove out the Gauls, and are now called Tungrians, were then called Germani"?

Who is saying they are wrong?

The Belgae and other Celts living east of the Rhine were shoved west of it by the advance of the Germans.

The Belgae had tribal names that were all Celtic and leaders' names that were all Celtic, as well. I don't know everything, but I never heard of any Germanic substrate or influence in the language of the Belgae, which apparently was P-Celtic like the language of the native Britons across the Channel.

Jean M
01-28-2016, 09:32 PM
So maps like this one that show the Germanic people's expansion into Belgica, Batavia and other areas West of the Rhine by the 1st Century AD ...

And that Tacitus was wrong when he stated "the tribes which first crossed the Rhine and drove out the Gauls, and are now called Tungrians, were then called Germani"?

Tacitus and the maps are not wrong. Some Germani had crossed the Rhine by the time Caesar took Gaul. They just were not Belgae. The Belgae were forever fighting the Germani to keep them out, but they did not totally succeed. Caesar was of the opinion that unless Rome took Gaul, it would be flooded by Germani. Of course his prediction came true after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

PS Tacitus did not mean that Germani had crossed the Rhine and driven all the Gauls out of Gaul, but that a portion of Gaul near the Rhine had been taken by Germani.

rms2
01-28-2016, 09:44 PM
Right, and actual Germanic Germans served as auxilia in the Roman Army, which could have been the source of the U106 in those Driffield Terrace men. No need to look for U106 among the Celtic Belgae (although it's not impossible that they had some).

MitchellSince1893
01-28-2016, 10:18 PM
That is a possibility, but I personally doubt there was much if any U106 among the Belgae. Look at the U106 versus P312 cline in modern Belgium. The former is elevated among Flemish speakers but declines among the Walloons, who speak French, while the reverse is true of P312. That is the old Germanic/Gallo-Roman divide showing up in y-dna.

I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt the ancient pre-Roman Britons were as diverse as this group of soldiers or gladiators or whatever they were. Some diversity? Yes, but this group is a little too diverse. I don't even think the two L21+ guys have y-dna origins in Britain, especially not the DF63 guy. Just my opinion.

And the combination of U106, DF19, and U152 looks just a little too much like a bit of the Germania Inferior y-haplogroup profile.

It may be just semantics / different interpretation of what you were saying above.

If you were saying there was little if any U106 people living among the Belgae i.e. U106 people didn't live Gallia Belgica at that time, then I would disagree for the reasons I posted above. Based on your last post apparently this wasn't your intent.

As has been mentioned before there seems some confusion as to who the Belgae were. Strictly Celtic or a mixture of Celtic and Germanic. The Belgae themselves supposedly lived East of the Rhine before coming West.

I know where you and Jean stand on this issue (the Belgae had no significant Germanic genetic/language input respectively), but I'm not as confident the Belgae had little to no Germanic/U106 in their make up.

It's just seems odd that the U106 and U152 tribes hang out in Central Europe for a millennium or two and there is no intermixing between the Bell Beaker/Unetice/Tumulus/Urnfield/Hallstat/La Tene people and the Germanic people; even though they were neighbors in Central Europe for a good portion of this time.

Not trying to be confrontational, I just have my doubts that reality was that clean and simple.

Kwheaton
01-28-2016, 10:22 PM
I am very much enjoying the discussion and it may be moving my needle a bit. Some random comments.

The co-admin of the FGC22501 project who resides and traces his family back in Belgium for hundreds if not a thousand years wrote to me last year

October 31 @ 9:22am
Just a thought : if you had to guard the borders of your country, would you not set up more than one defense ? Thinking back 2000 years ago, the Romans occupied Gallia (the Celtic lands West of the Rhine). The Roman garrisons were stationed alongside the Rhine to keep the Germanic tribes out, would they not need allies in their back to supply food and backup soldiers ? As in those days defense lines were mostly natural, which river comes next to the Rhine running about the same direction ? The Meuse (Maas), so indirectly the Celts living near the Meuse - in the Bar, Toul, Verdun region - became the most important. The middle land of Lorraine as a second defense and a battle field between East and West up till the second World War, it was still that middle land that was wanted and flattened to the ground then : Belgium and Lorraine. Today the farmers there still discover bombs and shells on their acres daily.

But I think they did not take the Cologne-Tongres route but the Reims - Bavay route (Bavay was the knot where all Roman roads came together) - the split roads on the map where it says : Nervii

Suppose we are the Leuci we went Metz-Reims-Bavay-Boulogne-Bristol possibly also Trier-Reims-Bavay-Boulogne-Bristol


On the Phylogentic Tree ages are guestimates.

7527
To date we have the following who are FGC22501+ (from closest to the 6DRIF-22)

The 6Driff-22 WHIFFING cluster which includes:
Desc. of John Whiffing (bap. 1766), Richmond, Surrey, UK
6Driff-22
2 Bristol England area anonymous samples
The singleton Bristol Sample
1 individual who shares some of the SNPS of the above but breaks off before 6DRIF-22 is born

The FGC22538 Cluster includes
DOOTZ from Romania Likely migration in 12th Century
WHEATON-MALLENBY-HOWELLS-HANCOCK-RAINES pre 1600's predominately Bristol channel area
KIDD unk UK
TRIPP Lincolnshire, UK
VERBEECK 1542 Meerhout, Belgium
Not FGC22538 but FGC22501+
VANBENTHEM 1265, Heewijk, Netherlands
Not tested for FGC22538
HENNE Germany
UHRICH 1685 Ruedigheim-Neuberg, Germany

Currently testing R1b SNP pack which includes FGC22501. These are all DYS 438=13
BORELAI from Lucca, Italy
MOOR (MOHR) Randerath, Germany
GOWDY Ireland

So it clearly looks to me that whether 6Drif-22 was born in the UK or Gaul his roots lie solidly in Belgica.

It also seems to me reasonable that some U106 or DF63 end up in the mix of folks migrating northward.

As to the Horse connection. I think this is a key to the Celtic roots of some of these individuals...A bit more from the report: http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Driffield-Terrace-Roman-Small-finds.pdf 1
Selected Roman Small Finds from the Cemetery at nos. 3 and 6 Driffield Terrace, York H.E.M. Cool


If these items were deliberately included in a marker mound then it might fit the pattern of grave-side ceremonies suggested by the pottery assemblage. The pottery from the
feature includes some of the latest Roman pottery recovered and this might suggest that the individuals buried in graves 1150 and 1130 (include 6DRIF 19, 21, 22) were the focus of continuing attention
which might have differed in nature from that demonstrated by the pottery. Certainly those graves stood apart from many in the cemetery because of the inclusion of parts of horses. Laying items on the mound or pressing them into it, might have been part of the rituals of remembrance. Why these items should have been chosen is impossible to say without knowing who these people were and what
gods they and the bereaved looked to.

And specifically regarding Horses.


whilst Grave 1130 (containing the remains of three decapitated inhumations) produced fragments representing two horse skulls and several rows of articulated vertebrae.


The spatial distribution of the skeletal elements within Graves 1130 and 1150 was initially interpreted as showing intentional and considered redeposition, leading the excavator to conclude that the horse remains were part of the burial ritual. Whether these horse remains represent ritual offerings or general refuse is difficult to ascertain. Clearly, where animal deposits (in particular complete skeletons or articulated limbs) are associated with certain structures, or site types such as the cemetery at Driffield Terrace, and/or there is evidence of deliberate placement, or association with other artefacts, then there is reason to suspect the remains could represent some form of ritual activity.

There is considerable evidence for the use of animals in the varied ritual activities of the Roman period (Philpott 1991; Lauwerier 2004). However, despite the evidence for the use of horses as votive offerings, or as foundation deposits (Luff 1982), equid remains directly associated with human burials from this period are rare.


There is little other evidence for horse remains being included in human burials, although horse burials/sacrifices associated with cemetery sites are not unknown. They are sometimes found in places where there was already a strong tradition in the Iron Age for the use of horses for such activities. From some sites in Gaul, there is evidence for horse remains being deposited. in the boundary ditches of sanctuary sites and at temples during the Iron Age, with some continuation of this into the Roman period (Arbogast et al. 2002). The horse carcasses were treated in a variety of ways, with some remains deposited as whole individuals and others left to decay. At a few sites, only selected parts of the horses were found, the bodies having decayed elsewhere and parts subsequently redeposited into pits or ditches. It was not always apparent whether this was sacrificial waste or refuse from primary butchery of the carcasses from ritual meals. On the basis of the available evidence, the equid bones from Driffield Terrace most likely represent the disposal and burial of multiple individuals (possibly as many as six), which were disturbed during later cemetery activity – the remains being incorporated back into the reworked grave deposits.


Despite the fact that the horse remains in the uppermost fill of Grave 1130 (Context 1107) appeared to lie in ‘a rectangular spread’ which the excavators suggested showed that they were originally deposited within a coffin (the presence of a coffin or box being implied by surviving nails), there appears to be little evidence for any real anatomical patterning, and there is every indication that the bones were disarticulated on deposition. If the horse skulls and vertebrae were redeposited with the backfill following the interment of the human remains, the confines of a narrow grave cut may have kept them within the periphery of the coffin edges. Subsequent decay of the coffin and settlement of the grave fill would have allowed the bones to collapse into the void beneath.

Given the small finds, the prominence of this cemetery, the likely ritual Equid bones it does not make much sense that these were common criminals or slaves---

miiser
01-28-2016, 10:24 PM
That is a possibility, but I personally doubt there was much if any U106 among the Belgae. Look at the U106 versus P312 cline in modern Belgium. The former is elevated among Flemish speakers but declines among the Walloons, who speak French, while the reverse is true of P312. That is the old Germanic/Gallo-Roman divide showing up in y-dna.

Because modern distribution is relevant for every haplogroup except L21.:rolleyes:

Webb
01-28-2016, 11:32 PM
It may be just semantics / different interpretation of what you were saying above.

If you were saying there was little if any U106 people living among the Belgae i.e. U106 people didn't live Gallia Belgica at that time, then I would disagree for the reasons I posted above. Based on your last post apparently this wasn't your intent.

As has been mentioned before there seems some confusion as to who the Belgae were. Strictly Celtic or a mixture of Celtic and Germanic. The Belgae themselves supposedly lived East of the Rhine before coming West.

I know where you and Jean stand on this issue (the Belgae had no significant Germanic input), but I'm not as confident the Belgae had little to no Germanic/U106 in their make up.

It's just seems odd that the U106 and U152 tribes hang out in Central Europe for a millennium or two and there is no intermixing between the Bell Beaker/Unetice/Tumulus/Urnfield/Hallstat/La Tene people and the Germanic people; even though they were neighbors in Central Europe for a good portion of this time.

Not trying to be confrontational, I just have my doubts that reality was that clean and simple.

Not that I carry a lot of weight, or really any weight, for that matter, but I completely agree with you. You had a wave of P312 expansion north into Germany. How far north is not known, but I think all the way down the Rhine and quite possibly a fair amount in the interior of Germany. Then much later you have a wave of Germanics coming come the north of Germany, maybe parts of Scandinavia pressing south right into P312 country. Where these waves overlap should be a pretty diverse mix of haplotypes. I don't think it's that clear cut either. I know I say it a lot, but 10 seperate Schlegel lineages in that project and two are L21, one predicted L21, one U152, and one SRY2627. That is 50% P312 in a German place name, from Schlegel, Germany, in the heart of Thuringia.

Tomenable
01-28-2016, 11:49 PM
That is 50% P312 in a German place name, from Schlegel, Germany, in the heart of Thuringia.
Is THIS place perhaps the heart of Thuringia ???:

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

Compare with "Irish Bronze Age - Rathlin 1" map:

http://s23.postimg.org/biopv521n/image.png

IIRC, there are more maps showing "weird things" in that hotspot.

Tomenable
01-28-2016, 11:52 PM
By the way, "Hungarian Bronze Age - BR2" map (it was a Kyjatice culture sample) links Central Poland with Wales.

Tomenable
01-29-2016, 12:21 AM
Maps compared (http://s14.postimg.org/ilmb0axz5/Th_ringen.png)

http://s23.postimg.org/3th2vswu3/Turyngia.png

Something is apparently special about Thuringia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Locator_map_Thuringia_in_Germany.svg/190px-Locator_map_Thuringia_in_Germany.svg.png

Tomenable
01-29-2016, 01:41 AM
As for I2a2 haplogroup (with that hotspot in Thuringia):

In modern Ireland there is 4.8% (almost 5%) frequency of I2a2 and 1.9% of I2a1.

By contrast, there is only 2.7% frequency of R1b-S21 and 5.3% of I1.

Please notice that Thuringia is also characterized by a low frequency of R1b-S21.

Maciamo predicted some time ago, that Bronze-Iron Age Irish males were R1b-P312 + I2.

However, he considered only I2a1 to be there that early on, and I2a2 as later Germanic immigration.

But Maciamo was surprised that I2a2 was so numerous in Ireland compared to R1b-S21 or I1.

ffoucart
01-29-2016, 01:57 AM
An envoy said the Belgae had crossed the Rhine from Germany, which does not mean they were Germanic speakers... and I wasn't contesting the Celtic portion of the Belgae, but was pointing to the Germanic substrate that was supposed to have influenced the Belgae's language from the third century BC.

On this very discussed question (among others):
https://books.google.fr/books?id=RONb2alF0rEC&pg=PA145&dq=belgae+germanic&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi4v4rs883KAhXGBBoKHQznBhY4ChDoAQhEMAY#v =onepage&q=belgae%20germanic&f=false

To my knowledge, some of the Belgae on the continent were indeed from a Germanic background, but were celtized (more than the other germanic tribes, who were very close culturally to the Celts, meaning great difficulties to distinguish between both).

Here celtized means that the ruling class used Celtic names, customs and so on.

Webb
01-29-2016, 02:27 AM
Maps compared (http://s14.postimg.org/ilmb0axz5/Th_ringen.png)

http://s23.postimg.org/3th2vswu3/Turyngia.png

Something is apparently special about Thuringia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Locator_map_Thuringia_in_Germany.svg/190px-Locator_map_Thuringia_in_Germany.svg.png

At least one of those Schlegel lineages is F. Maybe two. But for sure one.

Webb
01-29-2016, 02:31 AM
Maps compared (http://s14.postimg.org/ilmb0axz5/Th_ringen.png)

http://s23.postimg.org/3th2vswu3/Turyngia.png

Something is apparently special about Thuringia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Locator_map_Thuringia_in_Germany.svg/190px-Locator_map_Thuringia_in_Germany.svg.png

Thank you for the maps. They paint a very interesting picture. One that shouldn't be, but is. Particularly for an area in the center of Germany. One might expect this along the coasts.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-29-2016, 06:56 AM
The decapitation and horse remains suggest to me close associations with pre-roman "local" practices which you might expect with a Romano-British population. Having said that other cultures may have had the same or similar, like the Saxon warrior buried with a horse at Lakenheath.
At least one very old New Year tradition associated with the horse still uniquely survives in Wales, usually using the skull of a horse although horse skulls are hard to come by these days. The Mari Lywd. :)

https://youtu.be/6ptel9C3Zhg

and an older version:-


https://youtu.be/QJyuBioq33I

R.Rocca
01-29-2016, 01:10 PM
Maps compared (http://s14.postimg.org/ilmb0axz5/Th_ringen.png)

http://s23.postimg.org/3th2vswu3/Turyngia.png

Something is apparently special about Thuringia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Locator_map_Thuringia_in_Germany.svg/190px-Locator_map_Thuringia_in_Germany.svg.png

These maps are the product of a low sample size (n=19) from the original Myres study. U152 was also higher than expected in the central German sample. The sample size is so low it was not even used in the follow-up Busby study when they did their frequency map.

rms2
01-29-2016, 02:58 PM
Because modern distribution is relevant for every haplogroup except L21.:rolleyes:

No one ever said that, but modern distribution is subject to misinterpretation, which is what occurs when one looks at a distribution map and simply assumes that high frequency = place of origin.

rms2
01-29-2016, 03:08 PM
It may be just semantics / different interpretation of what you were saying above.

If you were saying there was little if any U106 people living among the Belgae i.e. U106 people didn't live Gallia Belgica at that time, then I would disagree for the reasons I posted above. Based on your last post apparently this wasn't your intent.

As has been mentioned before there seems some confusion as to who the Belgae were. Strictly Celtic or a mixture of Celtic and Germanic. The Belgae themselves supposedly lived East of the Rhine before coming West.

I know where you and Jean stand on this issue (the Belgae had no significant Germanic genetic/language input respectively), but I'm not as confident the Belgae had little to no Germanic/U106 in their make up.

It's just seems odd that the U106 and U152 tribes hang out in Central Europe for a millennium or two and there is no intermixing between the Bell Beaker/Unetice/Tumulus/Urnfield/Hallstat/La Tene people and the Germanic people; even though they were neighbors in Central Europe for a good portion of this time.

Not trying to be confrontational, I just have my doubts that reality was that clean and simple.

Who said it was?

I said I personally doubt there was much if any U106 among the Belgae, and that is what I think (and for me the preposition among here means within, that is, inside the Belgic tribes themselves, not among in the sense of belonging to some Germanic tribe living in relatively close proximity to the Belgae). I did not say there was absolutely, unequivocally no U106 among the Belgae.

Ancient tribal peoples were largely bands of kin, and in the case of patriarchal Indo-European peoples, the kinship bonds were male-focused. For this reason I doubt there was a great deal of y haplogroup diversity among them. I don't mean that at the sub-sub-subclade-way-up-the-tree-to-the-terminal-SNP-twigs level. But I think these tribes were probably fairly exclusive at the larger branch level.

That is not to say they were absolutely monolithic. I don't think that at all.

But I do think the Celtic tribes were predominantly P312, and the Germanic tribes were predominantly U106, with some of them predominantly I-M253.

kinman
01-29-2016, 03:47 PM
Hi all,
Or perhaps there really is something special about Thuringia, namely rich copper ore deposits which I2a2 men would have vigorously defended against the S21 (U106) men who tried to come into the area much later. See post on another thread:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6111-Neolithic-and-Bronze-Age-migration-to-Ireland-and-establishment-of-the-insular-Atlant&p=137140&viewfull=1#post137140

------------------Ken
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thank you for the maps. They paint a very interesting picture. One that shouldn't be, but is. Particularly for an area in the center of Germany. One might expect this along the coasts.

Kwheaton
01-29-2016, 05:01 PM
We got another FGC22501+ Moor (MOHR d.1716, Randerath, Jülich, Germany) this AM due to my partner's heavy recruiting.

Also as a followup on the VI Vitrix Legion:

Frederic writes "Maybe they got beheaded because they mutinied :

In 185, the British legions mutinied and put forward a commander of their own, named Priscus, to replace the unpopular Emperor Commodus, but the former declined. The mutiny was suppressed by Pertinax, who would later become emperor himself after Commodus was murdered.

Gosh, this is becoming very visual, we can see them living as Celts between Meuse and Rhine rivers, supplying backup to the Roman border guards then marching with the Romans to England, having a mutiny/revolt and being decapitated and now 2000 years later the jigsaw pieces come together."


"In year 78 AD Emperor Vespasian sent Legio 6 Victrix to Northern Germany in order to create peace. Thereafter the legion got a fixed post at Novaesum (Neuss) on the Rhine River. LEGIO VI VICTRIX took part in the construction of the LIMES fortress, the fortified border between the Rhine and the Danube. 

In the year 122 AD legion 6 was moved to Eburacum (York), Nothern England to replace the 9 legion.
Now this is just one working theory but its rather amazing even if we are just clutching at SNPS so far."

Also of note is that surname RHOADES----has its highest concentrations in the UK in York.

Further more when the Limes line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Germanicus map coincides nicely with where these DNA Samples are turning up for FGC22501

Nice summary of the VI here
http://legionsix.org/history/

What if they weren't gladiators but insurrectionists---?

Kwheaton
01-29-2016, 07:43 PM
This map is annotated from Wiki and shows the upper part of the Limes Line with our FGC22501 matches plotted. There is one on the Lower part as well.
By Ziegelbrenner [GFDL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html) or CC BY-SA 3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0)], via Wikimedia Commons

7530

Kwheaton
01-29-2016, 08:48 PM
And this will not be any news to Haplogroup project admins but to others it may be helpful.
This is specifically re FGC22501

YDNA STRS vs SNPS:
When we get back a few thousand years we have men who are -11 GD 26/37 in the same parent haplogroup L2 who do not match FGC22501 but there are others who are as much as -20 GD at 37 markers who are FGC22501+. At 67 markers it gets even trickier I have a -19 GD who is not a match and a whopping -28 GD or 39/67 who IS a match to FGC22501.

Some STRS seem to have "some" utility in predicting FGC22501 (ie DYS 438=13) Overall in a time frame that spans perhaps 2,000 years the STRS are all over the map.

Kwheaton
01-29-2016, 10:55 PM
This website has similar roof tiles to the one I photographed plus this
http://www.livius.org/articles/legion/legio-vi-victrix/

""between 139 and 142), units of VI Victrix helped constructing the Antonine wall, between Edinburgh and Glasgow. In the years between 155 and 158, a widespread revolt occurred in northern Britain, requiring heavy fighting by the British legions. They suffered heavily, and reinforcements had to be brought in from the two Germanic provinces."

"During this century, VI Victrix remained at York, and shared the fate of Britain. When this province was part of the Gallic Empire, it supported the Gallic emperors (260-274); when Britain became independent, it supported usurpers like Carausius and Allectus (286-297). After 297, the province was again incorporated in the Roman empire, and the soldiers served crown-prince (later emperor) Constantius I Chlorus. When he died in 306 in York, soldiers of the Sixth proclaimed his son emperor: Constantine the Great (306-337)."

As a woman who never took much interest in warfare---I feel at a distinct disadvantage to you who have been studying these things for years....

Bollox79
01-29-2016, 11:21 PM
Since u106 is mentioned on her via roman burial at eboracum... Skeleton 6drif3 was found by Alex to be positive for df98 and negative for s18823 (this is one of two main subgroups under df98 - the other main one is my subgroup s1911 together these two main groups make up about 80 or 90% of df98). Under s1911 (which includes the descendants of the Norman odard de Dutton/warburtons) we have a group called s1894/s1900 which is mostly northern English and especially Scottish in modern sample...

Bollox79
01-29-2016, 11:23 PM
The other u106 burial was found positive for df98's brother clade df96!

miiser
01-29-2016, 11:47 PM
These maps are the product of a low sample size (n=19) from the original Myres study. U152 was also higher than expected in the central German sample. The sample size is so low it was not even used in the follow-up Busby study when they did their frequency map.

It's also worth pointing out that the York cemetery has a sample size of 7 Roman era Islanders. This sample size is small, so we should hardly expect it to be an accurate representation of the population. 2/7 U106's in the sample does not mean there are 2/7 in the total population.

R.Rocca
01-30-2016, 12:52 AM
It's also worth pointing out that the York cemetery has a sample size of 7 Roman era Islanders. This sample size is small, so we should hardly expect it to be an accurate representation of the population. 2/7 U106's in the sample does not mean there are 2/7 in the total population.

I don't think there is a single person on this forum that believes that these 7 samples are representative of Britain's population at that time.

miiser
01-30-2016, 01:31 AM
I don't think there is a single person on this forum that believes that these 7 samples are representative of Britain's population at that time.

I hope you're right, and think you mostly are. Although I have seen people argue that there are too many U106's in the sample to have been from the Isles, because the concentration in England was less than this. I don't think this is a very good argument given the sample size.

northkerry
01-30-2016, 06:36 AM
I hope you're right, and think you mostly are. Although I have seen people argue that there are too many U106's in the sample to have been from the Isles, because the concentration in England was less than this. I don't think this is a very good argument given the sample size.

I can't understand why the English are not testing samples from the Mesolithic,Neolithic and Bronze Age. Those are the periods they need to test if they want to find out which dna groups the ancient British belonged to.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-30-2016, 07:17 AM
I can't understand why the English are not testing samples from the Mesolithic,Neolithic and Bronze Age. Those are the periods they need to test if they want to find out which dna groups the ancient British belonged to.

I'm sure they are, or at least will. But the Stonhenge era was dominated by cremation rite

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-30-2016, 08:37 AM
I hope you're right, and think you mostly are. Although I have seen people argue that there are too many U106's in the sample to have been from the Isles, because the concentration in England was less than this. I don't think this is a very good argument given the sample size.

Sometimes people are happy to use small samples to support a theory. :)

R.Rocca
01-30-2016, 12:28 PM
It is interesting that we have two U152+ samples from ancient DNA and both plot autosomally with populations at the two extremes of Europe... this Roman sample plots with the North Sea/Southern Britain and the U152+ Bell Beaker sample plots with Eastern Europe (even though he was from Bavaria). Goes to show how wrong those folks were that were calling for a confined U152 existence in northern Italy followed by a sudden expansion during the Roman Period. Yes, some U152 is likely to have gone directly from Northern/Central Italy during the Roman period, but most of it is much older. That modern Bashkirs have U152+ as well may push the ancient distribution even further.

rms2
01-30-2016, 12:56 PM
I hope you're right, and think you mostly are. Although I have seen people argue that there are too many U106's in the sample to have been from the Isles, because the concentration in England was less than this. I don't think this is a very good argument given the sample size.

I haven't seen that argument, but I did see people jump to the conclusion that U106 was probably prehistoric in Britain because two U106 bodies from the 2nd-4th centuries AD showed up in an urban Roman context, even though it is well documented that the Romans used foreign auxiliaries in its armies.

rms2
01-30-2016, 12:58 PM
It is interesting that we have two U152+ samples from ancient DNA and both plot autosomally with populations at the two extremes of Europe... this Roman sample plots with the North Sea/Southern Britain and the U152+ Bell Beaker sample plots with Eastern Europe (even though he was from Bavaria). Goes to show how wrong those folks were that were calling for a confined U152 existence in northern Italy followed by a sudden expansion during the Roman Period. Yes, some U152 is likely to have gone directly from Northern/Central Italy during the Roman period, but most of it is much older. That modern Bashkirs have U152+ as well may push the ancient distribution even further.

Another example of the error of assuming that modern high frequency = place of origin. We've been battling that one for quite some time now.

R.Rocca
01-30-2016, 01:16 PM
I ran all of this sample's SNPs through YFull's block estimator. I also added the positions that showed "no data" and the block's age came out to 360 AD. That's pretty darned good IMO!

miiser
01-30-2016, 01:19 PM
I haven't seen that argument, but I did see people jump to the conclusion that U106 was probably prehistoric in Britain because two U106 bodies from the 2nd-4th centuries AD showed up in an urban Roman context, even though it is well documented that the Romans used foreign auxiliaries in its armies.

I haven't seen that argument made, but I have seen people make the remarkable assumption that there was an inexplicable filter that kept U106 out of Britain for 3200 years while, all through this time, P312 continuously flowed in. I suppose, as with L21 getting pushed off the Continent, it once again boils down to the secret handshake theory - P312 only admitted.

rms2
01-30-2016, 01:29 PM
I haven't seen that argument made, but I have seen people make the remarkable assumption that there was an inexplicable filter that kept U106 out of Britain for 3200 years while, all through this time, P312 continuously flowed in. I suppose, as with L21 getting pushed off the Continent, it once again boils down to the secret handshake theory - P312 only admitted.

I guess it helps to be familiar with ancient European history, and to know that the ancient Germans, with whom U106 is likely to be strongly associated, did not begin moving south from Scandinavia and northernmost Germany until about 700 BC, long after the Bronze Age, and that there is really no evidence of settlement by Germanic tribes in Britain until the advent of the Anglo-Saxons in the 5th century AD.

If U106 was not in position directly across the English Channel from Britain until the Iron Age, it is not likely it arrived in Britain until then at the earliest, except perhaps in very small numbers as a remote but unlikely possibility.

It is true, however, that the Romans used German auxiliaries in their armies in Britain and elsewhere, and that native auxiliaries were not allowed to serve in their home regions.

It is also helpful to notice the pretty obvious correlation between the Celtic tribes and P312, and the fact that ancient Britain was Celtic speaking. Before the Romans made a mash of Celtic Britain, it isn't likely those tribes would have allowed Germans to settle on their shores. The ancient Germans enjoyed no technological or organizational superiority over the ancient Celts - quite the opposite - so they would not have been able to impose themselves on the British the way the Romans did.

Kwheaton
01-30-2016, 01:30 PM
I ran all of this sample's SNPs through YFull's block estimator. I also added the positions that showed "no data" and the block's age came out to 360 AD. That's pretty darned good IMO!

Wow Rich, that's right on the money.

Where does that put the parent FGC22501? If L2 is about 4000-4200 ybp. And 6Drif-22 SNPS age them at say 1700-2000 ybp. Then FGC22501 nas to fall say somewhere in between 2000-3000. ybp for the SNPS to accumulate below FGC22501?

Kwheaton
01-30-2016, 02:36 PM
Okay I am reading through each of the articles from the Driffield Sites.

http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Driffield-Terrace-York-Osteological-Report.pdf

I think these extracts are important regarding the race of the individuals and how it changed over time in spite of the stated difficulties.


The term ‘ancestry’ is used to describe the genetic background of individuals. An attempt was made to determine the ancestry of each individual based on the visual appearance of traits in the cranial skeleton, as described by Byers (2010, 154-165). A metric method was also applied based on eight cranial measurements (Giles and Elliot 1962 in Byers 2010, 168-171). Unfortunately, the expression of the various traits used to define ancestral groups can be ambiguous and assessing them is subjective; consequently, it can be very difficult to determine ancestry (Byers 2010, 152-154).

Based on visual assessment of the crania it was possible to assign 56.0% (42/75) of the adults to an ancestral group. Ancestry for the remaining 44.0% of the skeletons could not be determined due to absence of, or damage to, the cranium (Figure 13). Of these 42 individuals, two-thirds (66.7%) were white or possibly white, 6.7% were black or possibly black, and 21.4% displayed a mixture of traits (Table 19).

All the black individuals were from the 3 Driffield Terrace group, but a higher proportion of mixed individuals was present at 6 Driffield Terrace; the dominant ancestral group at both sites was white

When the skeletons are divided into the different phase groups some interesting patterns emerge. All of the skeletons from the earliest phase of the cemetery (phase 21/31) were white, as were the majority from the later two phases (phase 23/33) and phase 24/34; Table 20 and Figure 15).

Over a third of the skeletons from the latter phase were of mixed or black ancestry. However, only a third of the skeletons from phase 22/32 were white, with the majority (40.0%) being of mixed ancestry and a quarter (26.7%) being black. However, it is important to reiterate the relative unreliability of ancestral assessment when only a small portion of the population was suitable for assessment (33.3% (phase 21/31), 46.4% (phase 22/32), 50.0% (phase 23/33) and 33.3% (phase 24/34).


Now I don't know about you but this immediately suggests that some of the individuals may have been of slave ancestry and that their apparent increase over time is worth at least a remark or two.

R.Rocca
01-30-2016, 05:09 PM
Wow Rich, that's right on the money.

Where does that put the parent FGC22501? If L2 is about 4000-4200 ybp. And 6Drif-22 SNPS age them at say 1700-2000 ybp. Then FGC22501 nas to fall say somewhere in between 2000-3000. ybp for the SNPS to accumulate below FGC22501?

YFull has L2 at 2500 BC and the FGC22501 mutation on its own is a 145 year old mutation, so very roughly in the 2400-2300 BC time-frame. So, archaeologically, western Europe was still very much in the Bell Beaker period.

faulconer
01-30-2016, 05:13 PM
Okay I am reading through each of the articles from the Driffield Sites.

http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Driffield-Terrace-York-Osteological-Report.pdf

I think these extracts are important regarding the race of the individuals and how it changed over time in spite of the stated difficulties.



Now I don't know about you but this immediately suggests that some of the individuals may have been of slave ancestry and that their apparent increase over time is worth at least a remark or two.

I'm not sure we should associate black Romans with slavery. There is evidence of North African soldiers serving in Britain during this time period. Emperor Septimius Severus was also of North African descent. It's interesting to note that he legalized marriage during military service.

rms2
01-30-2016, 05:16 PM
I'm not sure we should associate black Romans with slavery. There is evidence of North African soldiers serving in Britain during this time period. Emperor Septimius Severus was also of North African descent. It's interesting to note that he legalized marriage during military service.

As I recall, there were Sudanese Blemmyes serving as archers at Hadrian's Wall.

Kwheaton
01-30-2016, 05:25 PM
I'm not sure we should associate black Romans with slavery. There is evidence of North African soldiers serving in Britain during this time period. Emperor Septimius Severus was also of North African descent. It's interesting to note that he legalized marriage during military service.

I was not meaning to equate Blacks with slavery---I was making the point that Black, White and mixed race individuals buried together do not seem to be likely representatives of Roman soldiers but as I say on the other thread perhaps, conscripted, slaves, gladiators or some such thing...I will even speculate that perhaps the builders of fortifications along the Lime and Hadrian's Wall were captured Celts or their offspring pressed into service---possibly for generations....

Kwheaton
01-30-2016, 05:28 PM
YFull has L2 at 2500 BC and the FGC22501 mutation on its own is a 145 year old mutation, so very roughly in the 2400-2300 BC time-frame. So, archaeologically, western Europe was still very much in the Bell Beaker period.

Thanks Rich!

faulconer
01-30-2016, 05:40 PM
I was not meaning to equate Blacks with slavery---I was making the point that Black, White and mixed race individuals buried together do not seem to be likely representatives of Roman soldiers but as I say on the other thread perhaps, conscripted, slaves, gladiators or some such thing...I will even speculate that perhaps the builders of fortifications along the Lime and Hadrian's Wall were captured Celts or their offspring pressed into service---possibly for generations....

Are there examples that show that Roman army burials were done according to ethnic background? I am by no means a Roman history expert. A lot of this is new to me. My assumption would be that Roman soldier burials would be as diverse as we know their army was.

Thank you for sharing this info btw. I missed that when skimming over the paper and I find it very interesting.

rms2
01-30-2016, 05:44 PM
Are there examples that show that Roman army burials were done according to ethnic background? I am by no means a Roman history expert. A lot of this is new to me. My assumption would be that Roman soldier burials would be as diverse as we know their army was.

Thank you for sharing this info btw. I missed that when skimming over the paper and I find it very interesting.

As I mentioned, there were Sudanese Blemmye archers in the Roman Army at Hadrian's Wall, so I don't think the presence of Subsaharan African skeletons at Driffield Terrace means the remains could not have been those of Roman soldiers. That is still a very real possibility.

Kwheaton
01-30-2016, 05:56 PM
Are there examples that show that Roman army burials were done according to ethnic background? I am by no means a Roman history expert. A lot of this is new to me. My assumption would be that Roman soldier burials would be as diverse as we know their army was.

Thank you for sharing this info btw. I missed that when skimming over the paper and I find it very interesting.

Your welcome. And I will have to differ to others as my experience with Roman soldiers is very new too! Just looking at all the evidence as a whole---the malnourishment, decapitation, mixed race and the prevalence of these diverse Y Haplogroups---does not look like the standard bearers of the Roman army---and that is an outsiders viewpoint.

Bollox79
01-30-2016, 06:54 PM
I studied Roman and Ancient (Greek) history at college... and have always loved it and read plenty about it. While I'm not saying that anyone is wrong in their speculation... that's the fun about it... we need to look at data very closely... on an individual basis (though we can also look at it in overall context of other burials in Britain etc). I'm been studying the DF98 individual like an ocd mad man - I live for this new DNA history stuff - it has SO much potential to tell us the stories of these old remains and with enough data the society in which they lived and where they came from etc.

DF98 man - skeleton 6drif-3 - first off while I think some of his traits show perhaps a compromised diet when very young... or stress (it's pitting to the cranium when it's forming) he also was the tallest guy of the skeletons measured at 182.7 cm so 6 feet tall. That's pretty tall for that time period (based on current data of course!) and I don't think he suffered his whole adolescence from a poor diet... he was also heavily built judging from the muscle attachments so I think that might be consistent with joining a military unit at a younger age and getting a much better diet (the soldiers whether Regular Legionaries or Auxiliaries were very well feed - an army fights and marches on it's stomach!). I don't think a farm worker or slave would have had that stature - unless he was going to be big genetics wise anyway? Or if he was a slave - he was a very well fed gladiator etc. I know from personal experience that no matter how good your genetics are (and we are not that different from these guys) if you don't eat when you do hard labor or lift weights... you will not grow larger or a muscular frame... you HAVE to ingest more calories than it takes to maintain your body weight. I used to train to be competitive in olympic weightlifting... and also worked hard labor jobs... and I would eat at least 6000+ calories a day most days... I had a 1500 calorie protein shake in the morning with coffee and a bowl of cereal... then two breakfast sandwiches around 9 and drank a 1500 calorie half gallon chocolate milk - then ate a lumberjack breakfast at the diner for lunch with more chocolate milk and lots of coffee... and then ate protein bars later in the day and a good dinner (and sometimes a lot of beer lol)... you get the idea :-)!

Also as far as "workers" or "slaves/conscripts" building Hardrian's Wall... it's fairly well documented that the soldiers both Legion and auxiliary did all the work, which was quite typical of the army were ever they went. They also would have built a lot of the frontier infrastructure aka Eboracum since it was originally (and until the Romans left) a fortress town primarily. Considering the time period and area they come from... and the damage on their bones consistent with heavy lifting (see Schmorl's nodes in the vertebrae of the middle spine area for 6-drif-3) and lots of walking/marching (excavated muscle attachments on both soleus muscles on the lower back calf area used primarily in walking for example with 6drif-3) and combat trauma... AND a slightly longer right arm consistent with throwing or swinging objects primarily with the right arm from a younger age... I personally think it's very likely they were soldiers of some type... probably Auxiliaries (for the U106 guys at least from around the Rhine?). My group DF98 splits into two clusters - one around the Upper rhine and one in the Northern Isles with a connection to NE France.

6drif-3 was buried in a coffin with a respectful placement of his body... so if he was slave (possibility) he was probably a Gladiator? Slaves could gain respect in households and also by fighting as gladiators, but I do know of a successful gladiator - his bones dated to about 40 years of age and very large build with healed injuries - was dispatched and thrown out with the trash - they literally found his bones in a midden heap. This was also in York... this leads me to believe they were probably more likely important men in their auxiliary unit - like the couple guys being buried with horse bones - that's very typical for a military burial and also with some of the York remains hobnail shoes have been found...

Bollox79
01-30-2016, 07:05 PM
though there are always exceptions to any rule right :-)!

vettor
01-30-2016, 07:13 PM
Your welcome. And I will have to differ to others as my experience with Roman soldiers is very new too! Just looking at all the evidence as a whole---the malnourishment, decapitation, mixed race and the prevalence of these diverse Y Haplogroups---does not look like the standard bearers of the Roman army---and that is an outsiders viewpoint.

I differ, they where decapitated , many had legionnaire marching sandals with them, all where same height to qualify for a legionnaire and all single burials............gladiator burials where mass burials like recently found in Ephesus

Archaeologists digging at a site in Ephesus, Turkey unearthed a mass burial pit with the battle-scarred bones of slain gladiators. The burial site have revealed a lot about the rules of combat and the types of armor the gladiators wore. Now, a new chemical analysis of the bones suggests the gladiators may have drunk an ash-filled, vinegary beverage. The analysis also revealed that the gladiators ate a mostly vegetarian diet rich in legumes. The burial pit was part of a cemetery with tombstones that depicted gladiatorial combat.

these British burials do not fit the Roman model of a Gladiator site

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-30-2016, 07:24 PM
If they were born locals as was suggested, then isn't there a high probability that they weren't soldiers? Was decapitation a usual Roman burial practice for soldiers?
The decapitation and horse remains suggest a local connection to me, it's perplexing. :)

MitchellSince1893
01-30-2016, 07:51 PM
I ran all of this sample's SNPs through YFull's block estimator. I also added the positions that showed "no data" and the block's age came out to 360 AD. That's pretty darned good IMO!

Worst case it's no more than 290 years off.

vettor
01-30-2016, 08:48 PM
If they were born locals as was suggested, then isn't there a high probability that they weren't soldiers? Was decapitation a usual Roman burial practice for soldiers?
The decapitation and horse remains suggest a local connection to me, it's perplexing. :)

decapitation was the norm.............if a legion had to be punished, then every 10th legionnaire was singled out and was put to death.............usually a sword down the spine while kneeling then decapitated. A proper grave was done to show the others that while some where innocent in this "mustercall" the burial was proper.

Kwheaton
01-30-2016, 09:02 PM
decapitation was the norm.............if a legion had to be punished, then every 10th legionnaire was singled out and was put to death.............usually a sword down the spine while kneeling then decapitated. A proper grave was done to show the others that while some where innocent in this "mustercall" the burial was proper.

Thanks Vettor---
I did not know that...I wonder if in last hundred years of their empire ---things might have been going poorly---not enough for soldiers to eat (I see parallels here with my Father's and grand father's war stories) and some of the troops were threatening mutiny or worse---

Fascinating stuff.

Kwheaton
01-30-2016, 09:27 PM
In case anyone missed it on page 153 http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Driffield-Terrace-York-Osteological-Report.pdf

There's a lot to digest so this Map that shows this burial site in context is helpful to painting a more complete picture.


Micklegate at the south-western part of the city in a south-western direction. This road is also called the A1036 or, along the majority of its length, Tadcaster Road (also Blossom Street, The Mount and Mount Vale). Driffield Terrace is located on the western side of the Roman road, just below and to the south of the summit of the road, at The Mount and the junction between this, Dalton Terrace and Albemarle Road. The cemeteries discussed here are located approximately 600m to the southwest of the medieval city walls (Figure 54).

7553

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-30-2016, 10:03 PM
Thanks Vettor---
I did not know that...I wonder if in last hundred years of their empire ---things might have been going poorly---not enough for soldiers to eat (I see parallels here with my Father's and grand father's war stories) and some of the troops were threatening mutiny or worse---

Fascinating stuff.

Sorry if I've missed it, but is there a logical explanation for locally-born serving in Britain?

R.Rocca
01-30-2016, 10:23 PM
Worst case it's no more than 290 years off.

If we can assume that 6DRIF-22 and 6DT22 in the paper Kwheaton posted are one and the same, then the dating might actually be even closer than expected...

"A triple burial dating to the late third/ early fourth century AD was also found at 6 Driffield Terrace. This contained Skeletons 6DT19 (young middle adult male), 6DT21 (old middle adult male) and 6DT22 (young middle adult male)."

So figure the burial is from around 275-325 BC and the 360 AD YFull gives looks even better.

Bollox79
01-31-2016, 12:49 AM
Sorry if I've missed it, but is there a logical explanation for locally-born serving in Britain?

Yeah that's the interesting part... their autosomal makes it looks as it they might have been locals... but were they sons of local soldiers stationed there and allowed to serve because of their family's association with the military? Don't know...

rms2
01-31-2016, 01:13 AM
Sorry if I've missed it, but is there a logical explanation for locally-born serving in Britain?

Not really. If these men were locally born then they probably were not Roman soldiers, but do their IBS closest modern matches guarantee they were locally born? And does the isotope study eliminate places on the Continent not far across the Channel?

The only exception to the rule that native troops could not serve in their home regions that I know of was the Cornovii of the Welsh borders (Powys and Shropshire), but they did not serve at Eboracum (York).

Kwheaton
01-31-2016, 01:31 AM
If we can assume that 6DRIF-22 and 6DT22 in the paper Kwheaton posted are one and the same, then the dating might actually be even closer than expected...

"A triple burial dating to the late third/ early fourth century AD was also found at 6 Driffield Terrace. This contained Skeletons 6DT19 (young middle adult male), 6DT21 (old middle adult male) and 6DT22 (young middle adult male)."

So figure the burial is from around 275-325 BC and the 360 AD YFull gives looks even better.

Yes they are one in the same, Rich! 6 Driffield Terrace as opposed to 3 Driffield Terrace. Different abbreviations used by different authors....just to keep us on our toes!

faulconer
01-31-2016, 01:44 AM
Not really. If these men were locally born then they probably were not Roman soldiers, but do their IBS closest modern matches guarantee they were locally born? And does the isotope study eliminate places on the Continent not far across the Channel?

The only exception to the rule that native troops could not serve in their home regions that I know of was the Cornovii of the Welsh borders (Powys and Shropshire), but they did not serve at Eboracum (York).

I was curious about this issue as well. After doing some digging, I think it might be possible that local recruitment did occur and perhaps being the son of a soldier made it more likely. It seems that the marriage ban was more of a legal distinction and that a fair amount of soldiers were married (unofficially). From what I read, it seems that Legions were sent away from their homeland, but that Legions that stayed in one place for generations (like the VI) probably sourced the local population for recruits to some level. Here is a quote from the paper I just read:

In the first century AD, marital dedications may have been scarce because soldiers
commonly manned garrisons far away from home and local same-status women were in short
supply. In this environment, soldiers were more readily commemorated by fellow-soldiers,
especially by those whom they had designated heirs. Greater troop mobility in the early
Principate might have been another factor, in as much as it interfered with the creation of stable
de facto unions. Dedications by members of the conjugal (as well as the birth family) increase in
the second century AD, a trend that continues into the third. This development may have been
spurred by a rise in provincial recruitment that helped preserve links to the birth family and
facilitated relationships with local women. Even then, however, the Praetorian Guards in Rome
continued to lag behind (table 2), and the ethnically distinct Horse Guards even more so.4

The question to what extent the imperial army was capable of reproducing itself (via the
enlistment of the sons of soldiers) is impossible to answer.

https://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/110509.pdf

Those of you with a strong background in Roman history will probably have a better perspective on this. Were sons of soldiers recruited into the Legion or Aux of their father?

rms2
01-31-2016, 02:12 AM
From everything I have read (and I don't have a source handy for you) local boys could not serve in their home regions and were shipped out to serve elsewhere in the Empire.

vettor
01-31-2016, 03:22 AM
Sorry if I've missed it, but is there a logical explanation for locally-born serving in Britain?

In the Roman world was london to york still "local" people! ...............the world was "smaller" in those days, I doubt that the romans back then declare britain all one local nation

rms2
01-31-2016, 03:24 AM
In the Roman world was london to york still "local" people! ...............the world was "smaller" in those days, I doubt that the romans back then declare britain all one local nation

Maybe, but the only British tribe I know of whose members were allowed to stay in Britain during their service in the Roman Army was the Cornovii of the Welsh borders, and they did not serve in York.

avalon
01-31-2016, 08:54 AM
Makes you wonder how many children were born to these soldiers for over 3 centuries of occupation, and what percentage of their y-dna descendants make up Britain today. I've read many times that the Roman genetic impact on Britain was minor, which may be true overall, especially if limited to men from present day Italy; but, as Roman soldiers in Britain came from all over the empire, I wonder how many of these assumed "Celtic", "Belgic", "Germanic", "Anglo-Saxon", and/or "Scandinavian" haplogroup descendants, may actually have been descendants of Roman forces concentrated in certain areas for several decades.


I am sure that Roman soldiers did have children with native British women but I can't imagine that it was widespread? The population was likely much more mixed in the Romanised lowlands of England in any case but in the highland zone such as Cornwall/Devon, most of Wales and NW England it was more of a military occupation and Roman culture was less significant.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Roman.Britain.towns.villas.jpg

MitchellSince1893
01-31-2016, 03:47 PM
That was my point when I said
may actually have been descendants of Roman forces concentrated in certain areas for several decades.

I agree, it wasn't widespread.

Which is why I believe the U152 hotspot near the Antonine and Hadrian's walls is more likely to be of Roman origin compared to other U152 areas. These forces would have had a disportionate genetic advantage in these sparsely populated areas. Healthy men in uniform with relatively stable and high paying jobs in an area for 300 years is going to have an impact.

By contrast, in East Anglia, I believe the Iceni/Eceni were the primary source for U152 in that area.

The interesting thing about the map above is the location of the Roman Colonia which were typically established by Roman veterans. All but the one in Gloucester are located in areas where U152 is above average in present day England. It may just be coincidental.

R.Rocca
02-07-2016, 05:24 PM
A surprise this morning... a distant relative of our Romano-British U152+ sample from an unexpected place... MDKA: Axel Leopold Lagerberg, b.1860, Göteborg, Sweden.

14287006(C/A)+
14288276(G/A)+
7866684(A/G)-
13329431(C/T)-
8093829(A/G)-
2889012(G/C)-
8141406(A/G)-
17331282(A/G)-
19481839(C/T)-
23354888(C/A)-
19056131(T/A)-
22742147(ATT/ATTT)-
3745712(G/T)?
5034012(C/T)?

I'll check during the week if there is anything else, as this was just a quick scan.

Kwheaton
02-09-2016, 06:09 PM
Rich,
Very interesting.....I can't find most of the SNPS in the Big Y file---but you must have the BAM. Can you send me the shared SNPS with WHIFFING when you have time?

A reminder from a book I am reading.
" "Seen on a planetary scale, it is an extraordinarily short and rapid event, a peopling of a continent as quickly as weeds can colonize rough ground. The movement for awhile comes to a halt at the Atlantic shore but resumes a couple of thousand years later, when the technology is up to it and first the Norse and then the other Europeans continue to spread westwards and on around the globe. There is a temptation to imagine the past as essentially static and the present as essentially mobile and disrupted. Nothing could be further from the truth."

I agree wholeheartedly except the author failed to acknowledge the earlier movements of the peoples of Asia into the Americas.

Goteborg is a port town and depending on the shared SNPS---maybe we have a seafarer in the mix!

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-09-2016, 06:32 PM
Rich,
Very interesting.....I can't find most of the SNPS in the Big Y file---but you must have the BAM. Can you send me the shared SNPS with WHIFFING when you have time?

A reminder from a book I am reading.
" "Seen on a planetary scale, it is an extraordinarily short and rapid event, a peopling of a continent as quickly as weeds can colonize rough ground. The movement for awhile comes to a halt at the Atlantic shore but resumes a couple of thousand years later, when the technology is up to it and first the Norse and then the other Europeans continue to spread westwards and on around the globe. There is a temptation to imagine the past as essentially static and the present as essentially mobile and disrupted. Nothing could be further from the truth."

I agree wholeheartedly except the author failed to acknowledge the earlier movements of the peoples of Asia into the Americas.

Goteborg is a port town and depending on the shared SNPS---maybe we have a seafarer in the mix!

From the history Of Gothenburg (Wikipedia) :-
"King Gustav Vasa tried to build a new city near the old Älvsborg Fortress, but was not successful. When Sweden rose to be a major European power in the 17th century, his son King Charles IX founded a town on the northern bank of the Göta älv and near the outlet to the sea, on the island Hisingen. This was the first time that the town was named Gothenburg.

This short-lived town was almost wholly inhabited by Dutch merchants and immigrants, and Dutch was the official language. The Swedish king attracted the Dutch to Sweden with the promise of free trade and also free practice of religion (the situation in the Netherlands had become problematic). They enjoyed privileges such as 20 years of tax exemption and lowered customs rates. In return, Sweden and the west coast could benefit of the skills and trade connections of the Dutch."
Perhaps the recent match had Dutch ancestry? - things aren't always straightforward. :)

Kwheaton
02-09-2016, 06:55 PM
This short-lived town was almost wholly inhabited by Dutch merchants and immigrants, and Dutch was the official language. The Swedish king attracted the Dutch to Sweden with the promise of free trade and also free practice of religion (the situation in the Netherlands had become problematic). They enjoyed privileges such as 20 years of tax exemption and lowered customs rates. In return, Sweden and the west coast could benefit of the skills and trade connections of the Dutch."
Perhaps the recent match had Dutch ancestry? - things aren't always straightforward.

Indeed! Thanks for the info.

Ravai
02-15-2016, 05:14 PM
Hello, I assume that the hypothesis raised here for FGC22501 apply equally to FGC13620>BY3485>BY3478.

Moses Wright, Ireland and Griffith Williams, Wales are FGC13620>BY3485>BY3478>BY3481

Giovanni Domenico Rabai, Savona, Italy is FGC13620>BY3485>BY3478

Liguria is likely traveling with the Roman legions to the British Isles?

Regards

David Rabai

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-15-2016, 06:23 PM
"Griffith Williams, Wales are FGC13620>BY3485>BY3478>BY3481" - that's a fine Welsh name for a Roman. :) Perhaps Giovanni is descended from a British slave. ;)

Ravai
02-15-2016, 06:31 PM
The question is ... A Romanized Ligurian traveling with the Roman legions to the British Isles? A Celtic or British origin traveled to Liguria, for example, during the Crusades? Nor should we forget that in Greece and Montengro also found the FGC13620 generation.

Thanks

Regards

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-15-2016, 07:26 PM
The question is ... A Romanized Ligurian traveling with the Roman legions to the British Isles? A Celtic or British origin traveled to Liguria, for example, during the Crusades? Nor should we forget that in Greece and Montengro also found the FGC13620 generation.

Thanks

Regards

It would be interesting to know the ancestral history of the Irish and Welsh individuals you mentioned. My basic history tells me Rome never reached Ireland or even parts of Wales ( in terms of settlement). Of course there could be an alternative explanation. Interesting.

lamahorse
02-15-2016, 10:46 PM
Roman influence isn't strictly defined by the limits of their Empire. Tacitus, the Roman historian, alludes to the Roman Governor of Britannia, Agricola, subduing peoples of unknown location. Whether these peoples were islanders off the Isles or further afield in Ulster or Leinster, who knows. Agricola was entertaining an exiled Irish Prince around this time. (81 AD)

‘Agricola crossed over in the leading ship to conquer peoples who were up to that time unknown to us and he subdued them in a series of successful actions’.

Whether the Romans ever landed here might not matter, as we have solid evidence of Roman traders visiting Ireland as evidenced by their coinage. There is also a disputed archaeological 'Roman Fort' in north Dublin. Even without these small links, the Irish Petty Kings had been enslaving and raiding the Welsh coasts from around 100 BC to well into the 600s. Had any U152+, L2+ Romanised British or Brittannised Romans been unfortunate to be living near the coasts; it's not unreasonable to surmise that they might have ended up in a slaver's hold.

St. Patrick was one of these 'Romanised' Welshmen.

And that's before the more likely vector of U152+, L2+ individuals into Ireland. Ironically, the Normans who conquered Ireland in the 12th century were the grandchildren of those Normans who conquered the Welsh marches who were joined by thousands of Frisian and Fleming farmers and traders! That's even to ignore the Vikings or the most likely source of U152, L2; English settlers. We've been somewhat of a melting pot at various points in our history.

Ravai
02-16-2016, 12:01 PM
Good morning,

In addition to the aforementioned kit, we also have the following kit:

N34331, Richard J Walker b 1769 Augusta VA d 1856 Texas MO, United Kingdom

And on the next site, the G19A and G19B groups, wherein the kit is N34331. They are probably FGC13620. Scotland and England people's!!!.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Walker%20DNA%20Project%20mtDNA%20Results/default.aspx?section=yresults

Regards

palamede
02-27-2016, 03:39 PM
I don't believe to the general rule of the Roman soldiers to serve outside of their region of origin, specially the auxiliary troops. In Tacitus, we see auxiliary troops served in the neighbouring borders. For legions, there were a lot of exceptions and derogations.

for the auxiliaries in Tacitus :
In 14 AD at Augustus'death, there is a great mutiny of the legions. At Cologne ("Ubii altars") on Rhine borders where Agrippina the young, son of Germanicus and Agrippina the old , the 2 legions mutinied, Germanicus give Belgian auxiliaries as protection to evacuate Agripina the old and their chidren including the baby Agrippina the young and the future imperator Caligula.

In several campaigns beyond Rhine , Tacitus names auxiliaries of local peoples : Batavi, Treviri, Rheti, Vindelici, Galli, Canninefati, Germani, Vangioni, Nemeti, .. l

Some gaulish people had the federated status and maintained one or two auxiliary cohorts recruited locally, garnizoned in the local forts close of the empire borders, or on the communications roads, they were used in the repression of banditry and incorporated in Roman army during war : Heduii, Treviri, Lingoni, Sequani, Helveti, ... We see them during the Civil War of 69AD in their areas of origin..

rms2
02-27-2016, 04:34 PM
You can believe whatever you want, but nothing you cited shows tribal auxiliaries actually being stationed in their home territories.

Judith
12-16-2016, 02:06 PM
Could we consider the simplest solution namely that these guys were local gladiators?
Northern England is not the same as the Saxon dominated (?) South and east.
My DNA origins usually gives me a fair bit of Baltic and Eastern Europe despite having none.
So the simplest explanation is that the common ancient origins of many of the northern English tribes was the same as modern Poland area (or Doggerland) if you want to go back further.
I have close DNA links to the ancient corded ware samples too

rms2
12-18-2016, 04:51 PM
Could we consider the simplest solution namely that these guys were local gladiators? . . .

Well, how local is the word gladiator or the idea of gladiatorial games?

My point is that these remains come from an urban Roman context, and that should not be forgotten.

Jan Suhr
11-29-2017, 03:19 PM
In the last year it has happened a lot in the FGC22501 project and we have come a long way. We have a lot of BIG-Y and Y-Elite tested and some with specific SNP-testing at YSeq. We have now a good picture of a guild of chancellors or other high ranking occupations very close to rulers in the medieval Europe with its origin in the Duchy of Bar and Lorraine.

This also fits in with the Headless Romans found in York and the skeletons were probably not gladiators but close administrators and servants to the emperor Septimius Severus as is mentioned in this video as a probable theory about who they were.

https://youtu.be/4rhLlzmUTkc
In the last 15 minutes this theory is presented.

Jan Suhr

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-29-2017, 06:12 PM
Could we consider the simplest solution namely that these guys were local gladiators?
Northern England is not the same as the Saxon dominated (?) South and east.
My DNA origins usually gives me a fair bit of Baltic and Eastern Europe despite having none.
So the simplest explanation is that the common ancient origins of many of the northern English tribes was the same as modern Poland area (or Doggerland) if you want to go back further.
I have close DNA links to the ancient corded ware samples too

We know, for example from British Roman era burial inscriptions, referring to tribe of origin, that there were "Germanics" buried here and people from other parts. Some must have settled or at least left descendants. However, I think we have to be a little cautious about assuming everything unexpected DNA-wise was "imported" by the Romans, unless of course found under a big stone saying "I am a Roman from ......." :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-29-2017, 06:38 PM
In the last year it has happened a lot in the FGC22501 project and we have come a long way. We have a lot of BIG-Y and Y-Elite tested and some with specific SNP-testing at YSeq. We have now a good picture of a guild of chancellors or other high ranking occupations very close to rulers in the medieval Europe with its origin in the Duchy of Bar and Lorraine.

This also fits in with the Headless Romans found in York and the skeletons were probably not gladiators but close administrators and servants to the emperor Septimius Severus as is mentioned in this video as a probable theory about who they were.

https://youtu.be/4rhLlzmUTkc
In the last 15 minutes this theory is presented.

Jan Suhr

I'm not entirely convinced by the gladiator theory (not impossible) but who were these counsellors and physicians and where did they come from and has this theory taken into consideration the DNA?
From Iain McDonald's analysis of European ancient DNA which I recently posted on another U106-related thread :-
" It is likely that these burials represent gladiators from within Roman Britain. The isotopic analysis of the R-DF96 burial suggests that he came from a more mountainous region. The paper's authors posit Wales, but other areas of the British Isles (e.g. Southern Scotland) remain possible. Only one of the burials mentioned in that paper show isotopic and autosomal DNA evidence for coming from outside the British Isles".

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-29-2017, 08:54 PM
Roman influence isn't strictly defined by the limits of their Empire. Tacitus, the Roman historian, alludes to the Roman Governor of Britannia, Agricola, subduing peoples of unknown location. Whether these peoples were islanders off the Isles or further afield in Ulster or Leinster, who knows. Agricola was entertaining an exiled Irish Prince around this time. (81 AD)

‘Agricola crossed over in the leading ship to conquer peoples who were up to that time unknown to us and he subdued them in a series of successful actions’.

Whether the Romans ever landed here might not matter, as we have solid evidence of Roman traders visiting Ireland as evidenced by their coinage. There is also a disputed archaeological 'Roman Fort' in north Dublin. Even without these small links, the Irish Petty Kings had been enslaving and raiding the Welsh coasts from around 100 BC to well into the 600s. Had any U152+, L2+ Romanised British or Brittannised Romans been unfortunate to be living near the coasts; it's not unreasonable to surmise that they might have ended up in a slaver's hold.

St. Patrick was one of these 'Romanised' Welshmen.

And that's before the more likely vector of U152+, L2+ individuals into Ireland. Ironically, the Normans who conquered Ireland in the 12th century were the grandchildren of those Normans who conquered the Welsh marches who were joined by thousands of Frisian and Fleming farmers and traders! That's even to ignore the Vikings or the most likely source of U152, L2; English settlers. We've been somewhat of a melting pot at various points in our history.

Frisian? I know about the Flemings particularly in Pembokeshire but where do Frisians fit into the Norman period? Not being awkward but never heard of Frisian "Normans" before or do you mean during the Anglo Saxon period?
You also have a significant Breton presence in the Marches I think, particularly Herefordshire and Gloucestershire some of whome could have had Norman or Frank paternal origins.
I wouldn't be particularly surprised by a Roman period or even earlier origin.

Searell
11-17-2020, 04:50 AM
If we can assume that 6DRIF-22 and 6DT22 in the paper Kwheaton posted are one and the same, then the dating might actually be even closer than expected...

"A triple burial dating to the late third/ early fourth century AD was also found at 6 Driffield Terrace. This contained Skeletons 6DT19 (young middle adult male), 6DT21 (old middle adult male) and 6DT22 (young middle adult male)."

So figure the burial is from around 275-325 BC and the 360 AD YFull gives looks even better.

In 305/6 Roman Emperor Constantius 1 Chlorus was based in York with his son Constantine. They were giving the Scots a bit of trouble and pacifying the North after the Carausius/Allectus break from Rome interregnum. The gladiators may have been rolled out for his entertainment or as part of his funereal commemorations.

Dewsloth
11-17-2020, 03:12 PM
It's my uneducated and probably misguided opinion that 6DT22's affinity to modern Welsh is somewhat misleading as to his origins (although descendants/relatives are another matter), and that he is of possibly mixed Belgae, northern Gaul or even western German origins.
Mind you, by this time the Romans had been in Britain for ~300 years, so there's no need for a random soldier/gladiator to look like an "unmixed" member of any group, and (where I finally get on the topic of this thread) his Y-DNA may have only entered Britain in the Roman era:

Distance: 0.0032% / 0.00317659
Target: England_Roman:6DT22
12.6 HUN_MA_Szolad
12.4 FRA_IA
8.6 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA
8.4 Irish
7.8 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
6.2 Dutch
6.0 DEU_Tollense_BA
5.6 KAZ_Karagash_MLBA
4.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
3.6 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
3.4 DEU_LBK_HBS
3.2 DEU_LBK_SMH
3.2 UKR_N
3.0 POL_Globular_Amphora
2.4 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
2.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
1.8 DNK_BA
0.8 CHE_LN
0.8 Scotland_N
0.8 Yamnaya_UKR
0.6 Corded_Ware_POL_early
0.6 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
0.4 KAZ_Solyanka_MLBA
0.4 RUS_Kubano-Tersk
0.4 VK2020_Faroes_EM
0.2 ITA_Sardinia_N
0.2 ZAF_2000BP

Distance: 0.0069% / 0.00688713
Target: England_Roman:6DT22 | ADC: 0.25x
21.2 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
21.2 England_MBA
14.2 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
13.0 HUN_MA_Szolad
9.8 Swiss_German
5.2 DEU_Tollense_BA
4.0 DEU_Anselfingen_FN
4.0 French_Brittany
2.2 VK2020_Faroes_EM
1.6 German
1.2 Dutch
1.0 FRA_IA
1.0 Swiss_French
0.4 Bell_Beaker_CZE

Distance: 0.0091% / 0.00908734
Target: England_Roman:6DT22 | ADC: 0.5x
22.4 England_MBA:I2458
21.4 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale:I1546
19.2 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK361
11.6 French_Brittany:French24090
8.8 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ14
7.0 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7249
7.0 Swiss_German:Swiss_German3
1.8 DEU_Anselfingen_FN:MX259
0.8 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7212

Distance: 0.0125% / 0.01247193
Target: England_Roman:6DT22 | ADC: 1x
32.0 England_MBA:I2458
22.0 French_Brittany:French24090
15.8 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale:I1546
12.2 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK361
10.0 Welsh:WalesCHF13
8.0 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7249


Distances:
Distance to: England_Roman:6DT22
0.02257324 England_MBA:I2458
0.02310405 French_Brittany:French24090
0.02331987 Orcadian:HGDP00805
0.02346292 Welsh:WalesCHF13
0.02410181 VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA:VK42
0.02428115 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA:VK337
0.02497013 English_Cornwall:HG00255
0.02568472 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7249
0.02573663 Scottish:Scottish24
0.02583407 DEU_Unetice_EBA:I0117
0.02588585 Scotland_MBA:I2655
0.02602280 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA:VK301
0.02622725 Orcadian:HGDP00797
0.02627006 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7212
0.02628248 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK361
0.02636670 Welsh:WalesDR56
0.02650466 Welsh:WalesL86
0.02654754 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ42
0.02678696 Welsh:WalesL44
0.02701103 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ12
0.02703366 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035
0.02713049 Welsh:WalesDR94
0.02733244 Scottish:Scottish10
0.02739054 English:HG01790
0.02748698 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I4946
0.02774348 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_6
0.02779904 English_Cornwall:HG00259
0.02782165 Welsh:WalesBK68
0.02787303 Bell_Beaker_England:I5379
0.02806937 English_Cornwall:HG00264
0.02807007 English_Cornwall:HG00236
0.02807320 French_Nord:N_64
0.02820366 Welsh:WAL001
0.02821622 DEU_Alberstedt_LN:I0118
0.02824063 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA:VK373
0.02826532 French_Brittany:Rennes_B_95
0.02830370 English:English2
0.02834223 French_Nord:N_19
0.02838339 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5833
0.02846015 Afrikaner:AFR053
0.02857399 French_Brittany:Rennes_B_59
0.02876070 French_Pas-de-Calais:French23862
0.02884493 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale:I1546
0.02890357 English_Cornwall:HG00160
0.02894958 Irish:Irish48
0.02911163 Swedish:Sweden4
0.02921254 Scottish:Scottish17
0.02921967 VK2020_England_Oxford_VA:VK173
0.02922041 Scotland_LBA:I2860
0.02925941 Welsh:WalesL40

Searell
11-21-2020, 11:15 PM
Yes 6DRIF-22's ancestors were almost certainly Northern Gaul/Belgic in origin. He is U152>L2>FGC22501>Y37744>A12416>BY3497. Scaled innovation estimates that SNP Y37744 occurred in that region, and that A12416, (our shared ancestor), occurred in Britain in 410BCE. His affinity with modern Welsh genes suggests his ancestors may have been in the earlier Celtic migrations into Britain (rather than the later Scots or Irish Celtic incursions). His DNA footprint is also very similar to the Briton Iron Age profile and this also suggests that his ancestors were in Britannia before the Romans.

Titus Valerius
12-13-2020, 11:06 AM
Hi all, I know a friend of mine who's FGC22538+. This snp is downstream of FGC22501

Acque agitate
12-13-2020, 09:55 PM
Ciao Titus, there is another one (Italian) in the same area ...



Hi all, I know a friend of mine who's FGC22538+. This snp is downstream of FGC22501

MOISSONNEUR
01-02-2021, 12:13 AM
Hello (I'm a new in this forum)
I just performed a Top Level test at YSeq and I am in the FGC22501 branch then BY3487

My grandfather comes from a family in Lozčre in the Cévennes France, the former Gabali in Gaul according to Caesar.

The trail I have traced for the moment made me say by intuition that it comes from the Etruscans "by the land", but I could be wrong.

For the connection with York I told myself that it could be Cantabres warriors (very crazy?) taken prisoner by II Augusta, then sent to fight to York for spectacolo.
Why?
May be travel to Navarre to Gabali leads to the region of my grandfather, is not so far?
Another thing, a ring would have been found in York with the rare mention DEO SUCELLOS (as Sylvanus but different); and precisely the largest statue found of SUCELLOS (1.76meters-> as tall as Galdiators?) was in Lozčre in the town of Anderitum (Javols). Only 11 inscripitions with Sucellos was found all around the world)

Another thing, in Mende there is a large cathedral, and one of the first bishops was Séverien de Gabala, a friend of Saint Martial who came to the Lemovites (Limoges (the wood of the arc) and also the old city of Tintignac in Corrčze with the impressive metalurgy of the Gauls who made trumpets " Carnyx " with a boar head.
But Gabala is also an ancient town not far from Ugarit, just in front of Chypre, a big port for people of the sea. We know that in Ugarit they found clay tablets which are the first to be musical notations, and and precisely Saint Martial is known to be very fond of music: so I see a connection with Marsyas and King Midas in Gordion, Phrygie. And also I can see a myth with the "bonnet phrygien" hat for the revolution and "LIBERty". Is known now with Y-DNA that Etruscan came from Lemnos, sensbly, and near Samothrace (the ile of tresor because of the cult of mysteries for people of the sea)

Which makes me say that there are links between the Phrygians (who were called by themselves the Bri-ges as The Bri-dge. See the Pontic region of Anatolia. and Following the cult of Sabazios (sawazia = cerveza = beer) one can go back to SUCELLOS the god of the barrel and wood ( for wine probalby and beer); and many Etruscan amphorae have been found throughout Gallic (see also Grand Dabau etruscan boat with 30 000 liters with 800 amphorae, and also see port Lattes etruscan one, and see the Basque-Vascon-Bourbon langage with etruscan langage ATA = father in turk, Aita = father in basq, and with the cult of API, as Corrida who come from the Mithra cult: see then hundred Mithraeum in Gallic). Could Etruscan came into the land to the land of my grand father in the Gévaudan Lozčre in France?



So my provisional conclusion and my question: is it possible that FGC22501from France? could have some connection with Etruscan (Toscan, people of the sea), as far from Phrygian-Lydian-Lemnos-Samothrace? And so it will explain why, from France FGC22501 + BY3487 in France with me? ;-) Thank youfor reading,sorry for so long.

Cordially. Hope to read you.