PDA

View Full Version : Modern L21 Distribution as the Result of Dilution?



miiser
01-25-2016, 10:20 AM
The prevailing hypothesis goes something along the lines of this: L21 originated on the Continent. Modern L21 distribution, centered in Ireland and radiating outward, is the result of reduced competition in Ireland, especially, and the Isles more generally, with some sort of founder's effect enabling rapid expansion. The initial expansion was followed by dilution on the Continent with the arrival of competing haplogroups. Thus, the modern distribution of L21 gives the appearance of being centered in the Isles even though it did not originate there.

But, if the modern distribution of L21 is due to dilution on the Continent, then any such dilution effect on the Continent should not preferentially effect only L21. Every other contemporary Continental haplogroup of the region should have experienced a similar dilution, resulting in a similar gradient radiating outward from the Isles.

Are there any other supposedly Continental haplogroups that exhibit a similar distribution concentration in the Isles? If not, then why not?

How can one reconcile the argument that L21 originated on the Continent, but was then diluted on the Continent, with the fact that other haplogroups did not experience the same dilution resulting in a similar modern distribution? If L21 was the only haplogroup that experienced this dilution, then how did all the other Continental haplogroups manage to escape a similar fate?

jdean
01-25-2016, 11:29 AM
The prevailing hypothesis goes something along the lines of this: L21 originated on the Continent. Modern L21 distribution, centered in Ireland and radiating outward, is the result of reduced competition in Ireland, especially, and the Isles more generally, with some sort of founder's effect enabling rapid expansion. The initial expansion was followed by dilution on the Continent with the arrival of competing haplogroups. Thus, the modern distribution of L21 gives the appearance of being centered in the Isles even though it did not originate there.

But, if the modern distribution of L21 is due to dilution on the Continent, then any such dilution effect on the Continent should not preferentially effect only L21. Every other contemporary Continental haplogroup of the region should have experienced a similar dilution, resulting in a similar gradient radiating outward from the Isles.

Are there any other supposedly Continental haplogroups that exhibit a similar distribution concentration in the Isles? If not, then why not?

How can one reconcile the argument that L21 originated on the Continent, but was then diluted on the Continent, with the fact that other haplogroups did not experience the same dilution resulting in a similar modern distribution? If L21 was the only haplogroup that experienced this dilution, then how did all the other Continental haplogroups manage to escape a similar fate?

In this scenario you're assuming the frequency of continental L21 was at one point the same or similar to the Isles today.

miiser
01-25-2016, 11:35 AM
In this scenario you're assuming the frequency of continental L21 was at one point the same or similar to the Isles today.

Not at all. If that's how you took it, then I assure you that wasn't my intent. The hypothesis only requires that L21's continental frequency, whatever it was at any particular time in the past, would have been greater in modern times if not for dilution by other haplogroups. Other haplogroups of the Continent would have likewise experienced the same pattern of dilution. The amount of dilution would be proportional to whatever the concentration was at any given time.

If you feel my hypothesis doesn't properly describe the prevailing opinion regarding the modern L21 distribution, then feel free to restate it by your own understanding, and then explain why the effect (however you perceive it to have worked) would not affect other Continental haplogroups in a similar fashion resulting in a similar modern distribution.

jdean
01-25-2016, 12:02 PM
Not at all. If that's how you took it, then I assure you that wasn't my intent. The hypothesis only requires that L21's continental frequency, whatever it was at any particular time in the past, would have been greater in modern times if not for dilution by other haplogroups. Other haplogroups of the Continent would have likewise experienced the same pattern of dilution. The amount of dilution would be proportional to whatever the concentration was at any given time.

If you feel my hypothesis doesn't properly describe the prevailing opinion regarding the modern L21 distribution, then feel free to restate it by your own understanding, and then explain why the effect (however you perceive it to have worked) would not affect other Continental haplogroups in a similar fashion resulting in a similar modern distribution.

Clearly there's going to be more than one theory but the wave expansion modal is quite popular.

In this L21 (or DF13 to be more precise) was at the forefront of a rapid stage of expansion and benefited from being the first into depopulated areas but got stopped when it ran out of land.

That said I don't think DF13 arrived in the Isles en masse and some of the larger groups might of arrived surprisingly late, but if so then where from I can't say.

Hopefully aDNA will help clear the picture up.

miiser
01-25-2016, 12:51 PM
Clearly there's going to be more than one theory but the wave expansion modal is quite popular.

In this L21 (or DF13 to be more precise) was at the forefront of a rapid stage of expansion and benefited from being the first into depopulated areas but got stopped when it ran out of land.

So, basically, this model would involve a founder effect rather than dilution on the Continent. But if this were the case, then it requires that the founding population that entered the Isles was composed almost entirely of DF13 and nothing else. Otherwise, the other haplogroups that entered the Isles in the same time period would have experienced a similar effect. So it still leads to the same apparent contradiction - why did the effect favor only DF13/L21 and none of the other contemporary haplogroups?

So far, ancient DNA seems to show that at around the time of Beaker entry to the Isles, P312 was still very diverse. It was only later that L21 came to dominate so thoroughly. It seems like special pleading to believe that DF13 was the ONLY member of P312 to receive the benefits of this founder's effect in the Isles.

MacUalraig
01-25-2016, 01:29 PM
So, basically, this model would involve a founder effect rather than dilution on the Continent. But if this were the case, then it requires that the founding population that entered the Isles was composed almost entirely of DF13 and nothing else. Otherwise, the other haplogroups that entered the Isles in the same time period would have experienced a similar effect. So it still leads to the same apparent contradiction - why did the effect favor only DF13/L21 and none of the other contemporary haplogroups?

So far, ancient DNA seems to show that at around the time of Beaker entry to the Isles, P312 was still very diverse. It was only later that L21 came to dominate so thoroughly. It seems like special pleading to believe that DF13 was the ONLY member of P312 to receive the benefits of this founder's effect in the Isles.

If S145/L21 arose in northern France it wouldn't take much for all this to come about. All it would take would be a small hardy group of the new haplogroup to hop across the channel. It doesn't take anything special as you put it.

rms2
01-25-2016, 02:39 PM
. . .
But, if the modern distribution of L21 is due to dilution on the Continent, then any such dilution effect on the Continent should not preferentially effect only L21. Every other contemporary Continental haplogroup of the region should have experienced a similar dilution, resulting in a similar gradient radiating outward from the Isles.

. . .

How can one reconcile the argument that L21 originated on the Continent, but was then diluted on the Continent, with the fact that other haplogroups did not experience the same dilution resulting in a similar modern distribution? If L21 was the only haplogroup that experienced this dilution, then how did all the other Continental haplogroups manage to escape a similar fate?

Why would every other contemporary continental y haplogroup experience a similar dilution if they were the ones doing the diluting?

Besides, the idea is that most of L21 migrated to the Isles, just as most of R1b-L23 left eastern Europe and moved west.

The following is from the book, The History of the Celtic People, by 20th century French archaeologist and linguist Henri Hubert.



But whence did the Goidels come, and when did they come? Where must we look for their earliest home on the Continent and their starting-point? Probably they came from north of the Brythonic [i.e., P-Celtic-speaking] domain, and it is to them that tradition refers when it tells that the Celts used to live on the low coasts of the North Sea. They must have left those shores very early, for hardly a trace of them remains there (p. 169).

. . . In the first period of the Bronze Age there arrived in the British Isles, coming from the Continent, people with very marked characteristics. The old Neolithic inhabitants (among whom I include those of all the beginning of the Bronze Age) were long-heads of Mediterranean type, who built for their dead, or, at least, for the more distinguished of them, tumuli with a funeral chamber known as the "long barrows", in which one sometimes finds those curious bell-shaped beakers adorned at regular intervals with bands of incised or stamped decoration, of a very simple and austere type. The newcomers were of quite a different type, and had other funeral practices.

They buried their dead under round tumuli, known as "round barrows", in graves in which the body was placed in a crouching position on one side and enclosed in stone flags or woodwork. Later they burned them. In their graves there were zoned beakers (Fig. 33), but of a late type in which the neck is distinguished from the belly, or vases derived from these beakers . . . The grave goods comprised buttons with a V-shaped boring, flint and copper daggers, arrow-heads, and flat perforated pieces of schist which are "bracers", or bowman's wristguards. The skeletons were of a new type: tall, with round heads of a fairly constant shape, the brow receding, the supraciliary ridge prominent, the cheek-bones highly developed, and the jaws massive and projecting so as to present a dip at the base of the nose. I have already described them as one of the types represented in Celtic burials.

The association of the physical type of this people with the beaker has led British anthropologists to call it the Beaker Folk . . . In Scotland they were accompanied by other brachycephals, with a higher index and of Alpine type. In general they advanced from south to north and from east to west, and their progress lasted long enough for there to be a very marked difference in furniture between their oldest and latest tombs.

. . . Their progress was a conquest. It is evident that they subdued and assimilated the previous occupants of the country (pp. 171-173).

rms2
01-25-2016, 06:52 PM
So, basically, this model would involve a founder effect rather than dilution on the Continent. But if this were the case, then it requires that the founding population that entered the Isles was composed almost entirely of DF13 and nothing else. Otherwise, the other haplogroups that entered the Isles in the same time period would have experienced a similar effect. So it still leads to the same apparent contradiction - why did the effect favor only DF13/L21 and none of the other contemporary haplogroups?

So far, ancient DNA seems to show that at around the time of Beaker entry to the Isles, P312 was still very diverse. It was only later that L21 came to dominate so thoroughly. It seems like special pleading to believe that DF13 was the ONLY member of P312 to receive the benefits of this founder's effect in the Isles.

It's not special pleading at all. For one thing, the estimated TMRCA of L21 makes it very unlikely that L21 originated in the Isles, since it predates the arrival of Bell Beaker there, especially given the fact that the Rathlin1 results will probably push the TMRCA of L21 back at least a few centuries.

Here's another thing. You still have the same problem - "[W]hy did the effect favor only DF13/L21 and none of the other contemporary haplogroups?" - whether L21 first arose in the Isles or on the Continent. If you bring in some P312* Bell Beaker man to father the first L21* man very very soon after the arrival of Bell Beaker in the Isles, you still have the problem of how L21/DF13 alone came to dominate the Isles y-dna profile. We know it is likely that I-M223 and I-M284 were already there and probably had been since not long after the end of the LGM. Why didn't one of them come to dominate the Isles y-dna landscape?

The answer is that the Bell Beaker people who arrived in Britain, mainly from the Rhineland, were already predominantly DF13+. Their chiefs and prominent men eventually assumed positions of power and leadership in the Isles and out-bred the competition.

We also know from documented history that other groups arrived in SE Britain from the Continent later whose y-dna profiles probably differed from that of the Copper/Bronze Age Bell Beaker people who went to the Isles. A prime and very much impactful example is the Anglo-Saxons, who were probably mostly R1b-U106 and I-M253. We know they pushed the native Celtic peoples north and west. We see that historical pattern reflected in the modern distribution of y haplogroups in Britain.

We also know from history that Germanic peoples began pressing south and west into Europe from northernmost Germany and from Scandinavia around 700 BC, building to a crescendo in the so-called Migration Period. It is not at all likely they carried much L21 along with them, and they would have shoved what L21 there was left on the Continent west across the Rhine and no doubt wiped out some of it. We see that reflected today in the continental distribution of L21 (little in Germany, much more in Belgium and France) and in its inverse relationship to Germanic languages there.

Webb
01-25-2016, 08:01 PM
It has always struck me as interesting that L21 is a east to west cline, DF27 is a south west to north east cline, and U152 is a south east to north west cline, all three piddling out to roughly the same amounts in the data we have so far in central France. If you were to draw arrows, it seems all three slingshot from somewhere along the headwaters of the Rhine and Danube, roughly.

miiser
01-25-2016, 10:21 PM
Why would every other contemporary continental y haplogroup experience a similar dilution if they were the ones doing the diluting?

Sure, some groups will be the incoming diluters. But, according to this proposal, there were NO other haplogroups besides L21 that were living alongside or mixed in with L21 that were also victims of the Continental diluting? Not even one?


Besides, the idea is that most of L21 migrated to the Isles, just as most of R1b-L23 left eastern Europe and moved west.

L21 managed to appear within a P312 community, breeding profusely for some centuries to accumulate a sizable population on the Continent. During all this time, they managed to keep themselves isolated from the other P312 subclades that coexisted in their Beaker population. Very few leaked out into the surrounding population and very few foreign haplogroups infiltrated into this water tight community. Then, after some centuries, they pick up wholesale and move en masse to the Isles.

I won't say it's impossible. But it sounds an awful lot like special pleading.


The following is from the book, The History of the Celtic People, by 20th century French archaeologist and linguist Henri Hubert.

I agree with everything in that quote, but it doesn't favor your position over any other position.


Here's another thing. You still have the same problem - "[W]hy did the effect favor only DF13/L21 and none of the other contemporary haplogroups?" - whether L21 first arose in the Isles or on the Continent. If you bring in some P312* Bell Beaker man to father the first L21* man very very soon after the arrival of Bell Beaker in the Isles, you still have the problem of how L21/DF13 alone came to dominate the Isles y-dna profile. We know it is likely that I-M223 and I-M284 were already there and probably had been since not long after the end of the LGM. Why didn't one of them come to dominate the Isles y-dna landscape?

The reason Beaker came to dominate over other cultures involves a variety of factors, including technological, cultural, and genetic selection. The more challenging question is why only a handful of subclades within P312 came to dominate so thoroughly over the other subclades of P312 (including all the extinct subclades).

The reason a few major haplogroups of P312, including L21, DF27, and U152 came to dominate within P312 is probably the same reason any genetic population comes to dominate given enough time - a selective advantage over other P312 subclades. This involves no special pleading, but a simple belief in the general evolutionary fact that the haplogroups that tend to dominate are the ones that have superior genes.

So the question is not why L21, DF27, and U152 are so dominant, but why is their dominance concentrated in a particular location? The most straight forward explanation is that they dominated in a particular location because that's where they were located. Alternatively, it is possible for a haplogroup to arise in one place, remain virtually completely segregated and contained, and then relocate as a whole to another location, but Occam's razor does not favor this explanation.


We also know from documented history that other groups arrived in SE Britain from the Continent later whose y-dna profiles probably differed from that of the Copper/Bronze Age Bell Beaker people who went to the Isles. A prime and very much impactful example is the Anglo-Saxons, who were probably mostly R1b-U106 and I-M253. We know they pushed the native Celtic peoples north and west. We see that historical pattern reflected in the modern distribution of y haplogroups in Britain.

I agree that dilution in SE Britain is an obvious effect. We can easily identify other haplogroups, apart from L21, that were affected by this same dilution and exhibit a similar distribution pattern within the Isles. So, for example, I can easily accept that L21 may have first expanded in England, later spread into Ireland, and then been diluted in England by incoming populations that mostly stayed out of Ireland.

The same cannot be said of the L21's population distribution on the Continent. There is NO other haplogroup that exhibits an extra-Isles distribution similar to L21.


We also know from history that Germanic peoples began pressing south and west into Europe from northernmost Germany and from Scandinavia around 700 BC, building to a crescendo in the so-called Migration Period. It is not at all likely they carried much L21 along with them, and they would have shoved what L21 there was left on the Continent west across the Rhine and no doubt wiped out some of it. We see that reflected today in the continental distribution of L21 (little in Germany, much more in Belgium and France) and in its inverse relationship to Germanic languages there.

If this is the explanation, then it is amazing that Germanic peoples managed to selectively push out L21 but none of the other contemporary haplogroups. They seem to have left U106 well enough alone. How did they know whom to push out and whom to ignore? Secret handshake?

Mikewww
01-25-2016, 10:48 PM
... During all this time, they managed to keep themselves isolated from the other P312 subclades that coexisted in their Beaker population. Very few leaked out into the surrounding population and very few foreign haplogroups infiltrated into this water tight community. Then, after some centuries, they pick up wholesale and move en masse to the Isles....
I recommend reading the Wave of Advance Theory work found in several genetics studies. There is no need for L21 keeping itself in isolation if this was a rapidly expanding and moving population. The isolation had nothing to do with "staying at home" but was rather an expansion into virgin territories for the P312 folks. L21 was simply riding the wave but apparently had enough steam to take the British Isles in a fairly intense way.

rms2
01-25-2016, 10:49 PM
Sure, some groups will be the incoming diluters. But, according to this proposal, there were NO other haplogroups besides L21 that were living alongside or mixed in with L21 that were also victims of the Continental diluting? Not even one?

No doubt U152 and DF27 suffered some dilution and shoving west and south at the hands of Germanic U106 and I-M253. There may have been others.

In general, the Celtic groups were shoved west and south by the Germanic incomers. That is an historical fact.

Before that, during the Bronze Age, much of L21 left for the Isles as part of Bell Beaker. Other Bell Beaker groups back filled behind it. They may have been mostly U152 and DF27. Of course, at that time there was probably still a fair amount of L21 left on the Continent.




L21 managed to appear within a P312 community, breeding profusely for some centuries to accumulate a sizable population on the Continent. During all this time, they managed to keep themselves isolated from the other P312 subclades that coexisted in their Beaker population. Very few leaked out into the surrounding population and very few foreign haplogroups infiltrated into this water tight community. Then, after some centuries, they pick up wholesale and move en masse to the Isles.

I won't say it's impossible. But it sounds an awful lot like special pleading.

No, it doesn't sound like special pleading at all. Ancient tribes were largely based on kinship. It shouldn't be surprising at all to find tribes that were almost exclusively of one y haplogroup or other, especially among patriarchal peoples like the Indo-Europeans.

Why do you think ancient Bell Beaker remains thus far are exclusively R1, mostly positive for R1b, and probably all R1b-P312? Where are all the other y haplogroups that were living alongside them? Hadn't they heard of multiculturalism and sharing?



I agree with everything in that quote, but it doesn't favor your position over any other position.

Sure it does, because it accounts in part for the paucity of L21 on the Continent, especially in NW Germany. If most of the Bell Beaker Folk of that region left it for the Isles, and if most of the males were L21+, then that would leave a lot less L21 there, hence dilution via emigration.




The reason Beaker came to dominate over other cultures involves a variety of factors, including technological, cultural, and genetic selection. The more challenging question is why only a handful of subclades within P312 came to dominate so thoroughly over the other subclades of P312 (including all the extinct subclades).

The reason a few major haplogroups of P312, including L21, DF27, and U152 came to dominate within P312 is probably the same reason any genetic population comes to dominate given enough time - a selective advantage over other P312 subclades. This involves no special pleading, but a simple belief in the general evolutionary fact that the haplogroups that tend to dominate are the ones that have superior genes.

So the question is not why L21, DF27, and U152 are so dominant, but why is their dominance concentrated in a particular location? The most straight forward explanation is that they dominated in a particular location because that's where they were located. Alternatively, it is possible for a haplogroup to arise in one place, remain virtually completely segregated and contained, and then relocate as a whole to another location, but Occam's razor does not favor this explanation.

In this case Occam's Razor is on my side. The evidence against an Isles origin for L21 is pretty solid. It is extremely unlikely that L21 arose late enough to allow its absolute origin to be attributed to Bell Beaker in the Isles, because Bell Beaker arrived in the Isles well after L21 was born.



I agree that dilution in SE Britain is an obvious effect. We can easily identify other haplogroups, apart from L21, that were affected by this same dilution and exhibit a similar distribution pattern within the Isles. So, for example, I can easily accept that L21 may have first expanded in England, later spread into Ireland, and then been diluted in England by incoming populations that mostly stayed out of Ireland.

The same cannot be said of the L21's population distribution on the Continent. There is NO other haplogroup that exhibits an extra-Isles distribution similar to L21.

No other continental y haplogroup has exactly the same history as L21, but other y haplogroups suffered similarly on the Continent at the hands of Germanic-speaking tribes. I mentioned U152 and DF27 above. As I said, the Celtic tribes were shoved south and west by the incoming Germans. Those Celtic tribes were largely P312, while the incoming Germans were largely U106 and I-M253.

You're acting as if peoples and y haplogroups were static on the Continent. They were not.




If this is the explanation, then it is amazing that Germanic peoples managed to selectively push out L21 but none of the other contemporary haplogroups. They seem to have left U106 well enough alone. How did they know whom to push out and whom to ignore? Secret handshake?

What U106 was there in Britain for them to push out? The incoming Anglo-Saxons were themselves largely U106! Why do you think U106 has the distribution in Britain that it has?

There was probably little or no U106 in Britain before the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons.

miiser
01-26-2016, 09:30 AM
If this is the explanation, then it is amazing that Germanic peoples managed to selectively push out L21 but none of the other contemporary haplogroups. They seem to have left U106 well enough alone. How did they know whom to push out and whom to ignore? Secret handshake?


What U106 was there in Britain for them to push out? The incoming Anglo-Saxons were themselves largely U106! Why do you think U106 has the distribution in Britain that it has?

Ack! U106 makes no sense, obviously. I intended to speak of U152, whose distribution shows no sign of Continental dilution corresponding with the distribution pattern of L21. Sorry for the confusion.

I don't argue that there was no dilution of groups other than L21 on the Continent. My argument is that the specific geographic pattern of the hypothetical dilution is not consistent with L21's distribution on the Continent. If L21 was diluted on the Continent, then there should be an inverse distribution pattern corresponding to the displacing population. And there should be dilution patterns in other haplogroups corresponding to the same geographic pattern seen in L21. Yes, U152 and DF27 were diluted. Does the geographic pattern of their dilution at all correspond with the hypothetical dilution of L21? Not even remotely!

There should be at least some degree of correspondence between the dilution pattern of L21 and other haplogroups that were present at the same time, as we see with the dilution that took place in SE England. With the dilution in SE England, there is a consistent geographic pattern of dilution observed across multiple different haplogroups. There is no such agreement in the Continental distribution of L21.

I wanted to correct my error ASAP, but I'll give a more complete response tomorrow when I have more time.

Dubhthach
01-26-2016, 10:04 AM
What I should warn about L21 in Ireland is that some of large groups in Ireland appear to be tied to mass lineage expansion in period after the arrival of Christianity. Historians talk about a near "overthrow" of the older dynastical groups during this period. We have to remember that lineages could undergo fairly massive amplification given societal norms in Gaelic Ireland which lasted until the Tudor conquest of Ireland in late 16th/early 17th century.

As a result you could argue that for some SNP's it was down to luck, been in right place at the right time. I personally think M222 in an Irish context falls into this, as does CTS4466.

miiser
01-26-2016, 12:34 PM
Here's an example of what dilution looks like. Notice the dilution of L21 in the Isles and compare it to the distribution of U106 in the Isles, one of the diluting populations. The interface is obvious and the two distributions are roughly inverse of each other.

7471
L21 and U106 in the Isles


Here's another example of what dilution looks like. Notice the dilution of R1b in Eastern Europe and compare it to the distribution of R1a in Eastern Europe. The interface is obvious and the two distributions are roughly inverse of each other.

7472
R1b and R1a in Eastern Europe


Here's the distribution of L21 on the Continent and its inverse. Notice how the inverse distribution correlates to absolutely nothing at all. This distribution has none of the hallmarks of dilution.

7473
L21 on the Continent and L21's Inverse


For comparison, consider the distribution of U106. Is it the inverse of L21 on the Continent? Not in the least.

7474
U106 on the Continent


What about DF27 and U152? Do they have a dilution pattern similar to the hypothetical dilution pattern of Continental L21? Not remotely.

7475
DF27 and U152 on the Continent


Dilution creates a similar pattern of concentration in every haplogroup it invades or displaces. Dilution typically has an obvious relationship between the diluted haplogroup and the diluting haplogroup. L21's concentration exhibits none of these signs of dilution.

rms2
01-26-2016, 01:28 PM
Honestly, miiser, your argument does not make any sense to me. Continental Europe is a big place with a complex array of y haplogroups and a long history since the likely Copper/Bronze Age exodus of L21 to the Isles. Were you expecting the distribution of any single y haplogroup to be the exact inverse of the distribution of L21 on the continent?

Look at the decline in L21 on the Continent as one moves south and east from northern France and from Belgium. See which y haplogroups (plural) take up the slack, and there you have it. Is that difficult to understand?

For one thing, L21 almost certainly never was dominant over the entire European continent, so one should not expect to see a continent-wide pattern of dilution or even a western Europe-wide pattern of dilution.

Clearly there were movements and changes in northwestern Europe after the Copper/Bronze Age migration of Bell Beaker/L21 to the Isles. Each of those left its mark. It's a complex story. You know, things like the movements of various Gallic tribes, the advance of Germanic peoples west and south beginning in about 700 BC, the Roman conquest of much of northwestern Europe, the decline and fall of Rome and the advance of the barbarian tribes, especially, once again, the Germans.

It isn't at all likely that L21 originated in the Isles, although it is remotely possible. For one thing, even if YFull's current estimate of the origin of L21 ( c. 2500 BC) is right, that cuts things extremely close to the very brink of the arrival of Bell Beaker in the Isles. The very earliest Bell Beaker burials in Britain are rc dated to about 2400 BC, those in Ireland and Scotland to 2300 BC. So maybe, just maybe, the first Bell Beaker people arrived in Britain around the time L21 was born - maybe. That is cutting it close. It strains credulity; at least it strains mine. Bang! Bell Beaker lands in Britain and L21 is born? Wham! Unlikely.

And if the Rathlin1 results push the age of L21 back even just a few centuries, which seems likely, then it is even less likely that L21 first arose in the Isles.

In the end, ancient y-dna may provide the answer, although I suppose that even if an L21 skeleton is dug up in Bavaria and dated to 2600 BC, someone will claim he was born near the site of modern Dublin.

Dubhthach
01-26-2016, 01:43 PM
What I should warn about L21 in Ireland is that some of large groups in Ireland appear to be tied to mass lineage expansion in period after the arrival of Christianity. Historians talk about a near "overthrow" of the older dynastical groups during this period. We have to remember that lineages could undergo fairly massive amplification given societal norms in Gaelic Ireland which lasted until the Tudor conquest of Ireland in late 16th/early 17th century.

As a result you could argue that for some SNP's it was down to luck, been in right place at the right time. I personally think M222 in an Irish context falls into this, as does CTS4466.

The following is on my wish-list of "books" to buy it costs over €635 though!
http://www.deburcararebooks.com/great-book-irish-genealogies/

Consists of Translation plus original Irish text of Leabhar na nGenealach the magnus-opus of Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh (c.1600-1671)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leabhar_na_nGenealach

http://www.deburcararebooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Genealogies-Ordinary1.jpg

MacUalraig
01-26-2016, 03:18 PM
The following is on my wish-list of "books" to buy it costs over €635 though!
http://www.deburcararebooks.com/great-book-irish-genealogies/

Consists of Translation plus original Irish text of Leabhar na nGenealach the magnus-opus of Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh (c.1600-1671)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leabhar_na_nGenealach

http://www.deburcararebooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Genealogies-Ordinary1.jpg

We have a set across the road at Glasgow university library. But I remember first seeing it at NLI - not like having your own copy of course.

Tomenable
01-26-2016, 04:57 PM
Here's another example of what dilution looks like. Notice the dilution of R1b in Eastern Europe and compare it to the distribution of R1a in Eastern Europe. The interface is obvious and the two distributions are roughly inverse of each other.

7472
R1b and R1a in Eastern Europe

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7472&d=1453810280

We know that the Corded Ware culture in East and Central Germany was overwhelmingly R1a.

But we don't know if that genetic landscape survived intact since the Copper Age. Most likely it did not survive intact considering that subclades of R1a found in Western Corded Ware were different than modern subclades of R1a found in the same area (East Germany).

So probably more recent events - such as the Slavic westward expansion - shaped the contemporary landscape of R1a versus R1b. The area with high frequency of R1a starts roughly to the east of the line of maximum Slavic westward colonization during the Migration Period:

Of course in reality the Early Medieval Slavic-German ethnic boundary was not a straight line.

But a straight line connecting the Marano Lagoon with the Bay of Kiel is very close to that western boundary of Slavic territory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marano_lagoon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Kiel

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7478&d=1453828448

If you want an exact line, then this map is more accurate (for the ethnic situation in the 9th century AD):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7480&d=1453830191

Mikewww
01-26-2016, 10:57 PM
Moderation note: I understand that some tangents are unavoidable but let's quickly come back to the focus of L21's distribution.

People can message each other privately for details that are on tangents.

miiser
01-26-2016, 11:17 PM
So probably more recent events - such as the Slavic westward expansion - shaped the contemporary landscape of R1a versus R1b. The area with high frequency of R1a starts roughly to the east of the line of maximum Slavic westward colonization during the Migration Period:

I think the same rationale applies to L21's distribution on the Continent. It is the result of a more recent expansion.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7499&d=1453849992

This distribution looks like an obvious radial spreading outward from the Isles. It's not an east-west gradient. It's not a north-south gradient. It's not a NW-SE gradient. It's a radial gradient through and through. I have difficulty seeing how anyone could interpret this as an old Continental distribution that was later diluted by other Continental haplogroups. What other hypothetical Continental groups could possibly have impressed this specific dilution pattern onto L21?

Now, I recognize that a population outflow from the Isles does NOT require that L21 originated in the Isles. But it at least requires that L21 expanded primarily from the Isles, and that there was very little L21 on the Continent when the initial expansion occurred.

rms2
01-27-2016, 02:54 AM
Well, miiser, you are making the same classic mistake that led originally to the flawed and now defunct idea that R1b spent the LGM in the Franco-Cantabrian Refuge, because R1b's distribution "looks like an obvious radial spreading outward" from there following the end of the LGM.

Are you that same MacGregor guy who has been arguing this way for awhile, the one who used to argue that L21 once occupied Doggerland? You sound kind of like him, and I remember that he was a Z253+ guy, like you.

The only significant expansion into Europe from the Isles occurred during the immediate post-Roman period when some Britons emigrated to Armorica, which came to be called Bretagne (Brittany) after them. There was a similar but much smaller emigration from Britain to Galicia in NW Spain, as well. Neither of those could possibly account for all of the continental L21, and it is likely that L21 was already common on both sides of the British Channel for centuries if not millennia before they took place.

Obviously, only ancient y-dna will settle this issue, but I must admit it is aggravating to watch the same old, tired argument from modern haplogroup distribution that was made to defend the damned old R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge idea being trotted out again, this time to assert that L21 was either born in the Isles or "expanded" from the Isles.

miiser
01-27-2016, 03:13 AM
Well, miiser, you are making the same classic mistake that led originally to the flawed and now defunct idea that R1b spent the LGM in the Franco-Cantabrian Refuge, because R1b's distribution "looks like an obvious radial spreading outward" from there following the end of the LGM.

Are you that same MacGregor guy who has been arguing this way for awhile, the one who used to argue that L21 once occupied Doggerland? You sound kind of like him, and I remember that he was a Z253+ guy, like you.

The only significant expansion into Europe from the Isles occurred during the immediate post-Roman period when some Britons emigrated to Armorica, which came to be called Bretagne (Brittany) after them. There was a similar but much smaller emigration from Britain to Galicia in NW Spain, as well. Neither of those could possibly account for all of the continental L21, and it is likely that L21 was already common on both sides of the British Channel for centuries if not millennia before they took place.

Obviously, only ancient y-dna will settle this issue, but I must admit it is aggravating to watch the same old, tired argument from modern haplogroup distribution that was made to defend the damned old R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge idea being trotted out again, this time to assert that L21 was either born in the Isles or "expanded" from the Isles.

Silliness. Rather than making a sincere and legitimate counter to my argument in a debate with the goal of truth finding, you have deliberately misrepresented my position in order to create a straw man argument to defend your entrenched position.

I've made it very clear in my previous arguments that I believe R1b originated in the east. And I've specifically made a distinction between the collection of evidence that is consistent with R1b originating in the east (not only based on variance of R1b but also based on the haplogroup distributions themselves, including those that interface with R1b and other colocated haplogroups) versus the total absence of comparable evidence surrounding a hypothetical expansion of L21 on the Continent.

rms2
01-27-2016, 03:24 AM
Silliness. Rather than making a sincere and legitimate counter to my argument in a debate with the goal of truth finding, you have deliberately misrepresented my position in order to create a straw man argument to defend your entrenched position.

I've made it very clear in my previous arguments that I believe R1b originated in the east. And I've specifically made a distinction between the collection of evidence that is consistent with R1b originating in the east (not only based on variance of R1b but also based on the haplogroup distributions themselves, including those that interface with R1b and other colocated haplogroups) versus the total absence of comparable evidence surrounding a hypothetical expansion of L21 on the Continent.

You may not like my argument, but it is not "silliness". What I said is that your argument is for all intents and purposes the very same argument that was made to defend the old R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge idea, in this case enlisted in support of the idea that L21 either originated in the Isles or expanded from there. It is an argument based on modern haplogroup distribution which I think gets the direction wrong, just as the old FC Refuge idea got it wrong.

Just as ancient y-dna has put paid to the FC Ice Age Refuge for R1b, I trust it will do the same for the Isles as the birthplace of L21.

At least you appear to have given up on Doggerland.

miiser
01-27-2016, 04:35 AM
Are you that same MacGregor guy who has been arguing this way for awhile, the one who used to argue that L21 once occupied Doggerland? You sound kind of like him, and I remember that he was a Z253+ guy, like you.

I do not share MacGregor's views. If you believe this is a duplicate account with MacGregor, you should report me to the admin. If you are just making ridiculous ad hominem attacks in order to try to discredit me, then I request that the admin respond appropriately to this behavior.

ffoucart
01-27-2016, 07:08 AM
Given the low level of testing in continental Europe, especially in France/Germany/Benelux, an argument based on modern distribution can't be seriously used.

The other difficulty lies in 2 regions of high level of L21 with no clear link with Britain: the Basques and South Norway. I think it is clear now that the Norwegian L21 is not mainly due to Vikings taking captives to Norway. It must be more ancient, and probably linked to the Bell Beakers expansion but not from the Isles.

Dubhthach
01-27-2016, 10:17 AM
Given the low level of testing in continental Europe, especially in France/Germany/Benelux, an argument based on modern distribution can't be seriously used.

The other difficulty lies in 2 regions of high level of L21 with no clear link with Britain: the Basques and South Norway. I think it is clear now that the Norwegian L21 is not mainly due to Vikings taking captives to Norway. It must be more ancient, and probably linked to the Bell Beakers expansion but not from the Isles.

Well there was noted connectivity between South Norway and Ireland during the Viking period. For example large amounts of Irish "loot" found in burials etc:

http://irisharchaeology.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Viking-budha-figure.jpg

or:

http://irisharchaeology.ie/2015/01/fragments-of-an-irish-type-reliquary-discovered-in-denmark/

Without a breakdown of exact clades of L21 in Norway (eg. are the similiar to ones found in Ireland or Britain or belonging to earlier branches etc.) I don't think we'll have an answer for that. aDNA from Norway (which I don't think any has been published) will help in long run no doubt.

Tolan
01-27-2016, 11:33 AM
The Armorica (Brittany, Basse-Normandie and Pays de Loire), as the west of the British Isles, were probably less affected by successive migrations since the Copper Age from Central Europe.
The Armorica, for example, has little culture of Hallstatt:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#Hallstatt_La_Tène

The presence of L21 in Armorica is probably not exclusively linked to the invasion of Brittany.
The Breton have invaded the western of Brittany, which is only a small part of Armorica.

Atlantic Bronze Age may also take a role (trade between the Islands, Armorica and the Iberian Peninsula).
But first, it is likely that L21 spread simultaneously in the Islands and the North of France.
The history of the following migrations did differences in the proportion of L21

rms2
01-27-2016, 12:05 PM
I do not share MacGregor's views. If you believe this is a duplicate account with MacGregor, you should report me to the admin. If you are just making ridiculous ad hominem attacks in order to try to discredit me, then I request that the admin respond appropriately to this behavior.

Asking if you are the same MacGregor who used to argue for a Doggerland origin of L21 is not an ad hominem attack. Your posts often remind me of his, that's all, and, as I said, he was also Z253+, so I thought you might be him. If you're not, you're not. Big deal.

rms2
01-27-2016, 12:11 PM
The Armorica (Brittany, Basse-Normandie and Pays de Loire), as the west of the British Isles, were probably less affected by successive migrations since the Copper Age from Central Europe.
The Armorica, for example, has little culture of Hallstatt:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#Hallstatt_La_Tène

The presence of L21 in Armorica is probably not exclusively linked to the invasion of Brittany.
The Breton have invaded the western of Brittany, which is only a small part of Armorica.

Atlantic Bronze Age may also take a role (trade between the Islands, Armorica and the Iberian Peninsula).
But first, it is likely that L21 spread simultaneously in the Islands and the North of France.
The history of the following migrations did differences in the proportion of L21

Right, and the levels of L21 elsewhere on the Continent cannot possibly be attributed to the post-Roman period emigration of Britons, unless one wants to argue, for example, that L21 got to be about 10% in modern Belgium because that many Walloons are descended from Bretons.

The modern distributions of y haplogroups have to be interpreted in light of historical and archaeological evidence, otherwise, one always gets the same impression: that y haplogroups originated in the places where they are most frequent today and expanded into the places where they are less frequent. Evidently, in many if not most cases, the exact opposite is true.

evon
01-27-2016, 01:01 PM
Given the low level of testing in continental Europe, especially in France/Germany/Benelux, an argument based on modern distribution can't be seriously used.

The other difficulty lies in 2 regions of high level of L21 with no clear link with Britain: the Basques and South Norway. I think it is clear now that the Norwegian L21 is not mainly due to Vikings taking captives to Norway. It must be more ancient, and probably linked to the Bell Beakers expansion but not from the Isles.

There has been strong historically connections between Scotland and western Norway during what is known in Norway as the Scottish era (http://nordlands-stream.com/html/NT1630.html), which could also be interpreted as Irish via Scotland, I have a few Scottish ancestors from this time period as the settlement was very extensive. As for my own L21+, I would guess it is either very old, stemming from the Copper trade between western Norway and continental Europe (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255667733_Copper_production_in_Bronze_Age_Norway), or it could very well turn out to be Scottish or German, but so far I have traced it back to the early 1500's without finding any non-Norwegians along my direct YDNA line..

ffoucart
01-27-2016, 02:23 PM
My point is more the probable presence of L21 in Norway before the Vikings aka the slaves trade.
I could be wrong, but I think at least some L21 must be ancient, and diffused from the point of origin rather than the Isles.
Don't misunderstand me: I don't care that my distant ancestors were living in the Isles or elsewhere. Given where my ancestors were living, I have some ancestry in the Isles, in Scandinavia and so on.
But even with slaves trade and other commercial exchange through time with the Isles but also with Low Countries and Germany (remember the Hanse, ....), and the Plague, I still don't see how this hotspot can appear (given other parts of Scandinavia don't have high level of L21 even with Scottish immigration).
Remember also that many Vikings in the Isles where Danish.

Webb
01-27-2016, 02:27 PM
I think the same rationale applies to L21's distribution on the Continent. It is the result of a more recent expansion.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7499&d=1453849992

This distribution looks like an obvious radial spreading outward from the Isles. It's not an east-west gradient. It's not a north-south gradient. It's not a NW-SE gradient. It's a radial gradient through and through. I have difficulty seeing how anyone could interpret this as an old Continental distribution that was later diluted by other Continental haplogroups. What other hypothetical Continental groups could possibly have impressed this specific dilution pattern onto L21?

Now, I recognize that a population outflow from the Isles does NOT require that L21 originated in the Isles. But it at least requires that L21 expanded primarily from the Isles, and that there was very little L21 on the Continent when the initial expansion occurred.

I suspect that part of the issue is that we often times associate a whole haplogroup with specific movement. Each small snp cluster under L21 should be examined, and recognized as a potential separate movement, era, culture, whatever. So if a particular sublcade of L21 is most numerous in the Isles, it really could be as a result of controlling ports of call. If this particular clade made it to the most convenient place on the continent to launch boats to the Isles, they would essentially be controlling all movements of people and trade between the two said locations. This would give these people controlling both sides of the port of calls a huge advantage in a number of different ways. I am DF27, but I work for a powerful King, who is say L21>DF13. I do a good job for the King and I am given a decent living in Britain, with access to women and housing and food. My line prospers well, and after several generations there are many of my descendants living in Britain, but not near as many descendants as the King and his relatives, who have flourished in Britain and say the port of call in France, because for generations his clan has controlled both sides. Just an example of manmade bottlenecking.

evon
01-27-2016, 02:32 PM
My point is more the probable presence of L21 in Norway before the Vikings aka the slaves trade.
I could be wrong, but I think at least some L21 must be ancient, and diffused from the point of origin rather than the Isles.
Don't misunderstand me: I don't care that my distant ancestors were living in the Isles or elsewhere. Given where my ancestors were living, I have some ancestry in the Isles, in Scandinavia and so on.
But even with slaves trade and other commercial exchange through time with the Isles but also with Low Countries and Germany (remember the Hanse, ....), and the Plague, I still don't see how this hotspot can appear (given other parts of Scandinavia don't have high level of L21 even with Scottish immigration).
Remember also that many Vikings in the Isles where Danish.

Scottish settlement in Norway was mostly limited to western Norway and it correlates to where L21+ is found in Norway, but the same area in Norway also got lots of immigration from Holland, Germany and Denmark, some villages were composed of mostly non-Norwegians, and most villages in this region have local names with links to either one of these ethnic groups, so all in all, it is hard to say what the point of entry was for L21+.

The black plague devastated the Norwegian population, so much so that our nobility and learned class died out, which is why we use Latin letters today, and also why our two Norwegian languages are closer to Danish then they are to Icelandic. So one could argue that much of the current western Norwegian genepool was introduced after the plague, during the height of the German and Danish immigration into Norway.

But as I mentioned before, western Norway has been involved in the copper trade since ancient times, and I remember reading an article about Norwegian copper in the Agean region due to trade with Minoans etc..So who knows, Guess I should test more SNP's to see if I belong to a German or Scottish sub-clade of L21+, that might help ...

rms2
01-27-2016, 02:57 PM
There was also some Bell Beaker settlement in southwestern Norway during the Bronze Age.

ffoucart
01-31-2016, 03:17 PM
Scottish settlement in Norway was mostly limited to western Norway and it correlates to where L21+ is found in Norway, but the same area in Norway also got lots of immigration from Holland, Germany and Denmark, some villages were composed of mostly non-Norwegians, and most villages in this region have local names with links to either one of these ethnic groups, so all in all, it is hard to say what the point of entry was for L21+.

The black plague devastated the Norwegian population, so much so that our nobility and learned class died out, which is why we use Latin letters today, and also why our two Norwegian languages are closer to Danish then they are to Icelandic. So one could argue that much of the current western Norwegian genepool was introduced after the plague, during the height of the German and Danish immigration into Norway.

Yes, all in all you are right.

But as L21 is not high in Germany or Danemark, why a higher level in Norway? Because of Scottish and Irish only?

And emigration from South Western Norway to Scotland/Low Countries/Germany has been high (notably to Low Countries at least in the XVII and XVIIIth centuries). Nevertheless, most Norwegians still got high Scandinavian in the calculators, meaning their ancestors who came from other parts of Europe weren't so numerous.

And remember that the Plague was everywhere in Europe, killing millions (the Third Part of the World). Many places were deserted, not only Norway.

I think the answer lies in more testing. We will see if some subclades are specific to Scandinavia and some parts of the Continent.

Moderator
02-07-2016, 10:21 PM
[MOD] Bumping threads to highlight perceived personalization of the discussion (on the back of warnings in other threads) is deemed by us to be a breach of sections 3.10 and 3.11:



3.10 Certain standards of quality control will be enforced to ensure a productive forum atmosphere. Invectives and posts devoid of substance (e.g. threads or replies consisting solely of inflammatory content or triviality) will be considered junk postings and deleted. Breaches in basic forum etiquette include (and are not limited to) cross-posting different threads, consecutive posting in existing threads and reviving old threads whose course of discussion has long since expired ("necro-bumping").

3.11 Anthrogenica encourages its members to participate in discussions in a topic-focused manner. Personalization of discussions is completely prohibited at all times. This includes (and is not limited to) direct personal attacks, accusations, insinuations and false disclosures. Additionally, discussions that degenerate into inconsequential flaming or inanity will be deleted without prior notice.


We make this clear as often as possible - If there's problematic content, report it to us, rather than turning threads into public spectacles.

The exchange will be removed and infractions will follow shortly.