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Tomenable
01-26-2016, 04:19 PM
There are genetic studies on Kashubians, Kociewiaks, Kurpie and Sorbs, but I have not seen many on Silesians and Wielkopolans.

On Silesians I have found the following studies (none of which deal with things such as haplogroup frequencies):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669549

http://www.forensicscience.pl/pfs/45_raczek.pdf

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/2_2007/2_07t.pdf

https://www.infona.pl/resource/bwmeta1.element.elsevier-0a16e08c-c20f-3c3f-9699-6e0ba90a21fb

http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medline/citation/20860300/

Are there any other genetic studies on them?

On Wielkopolans I have found the following studies (the study from the first link deals with Y-DNA haplogroups):

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=267630

http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(13)00249-4/fulltext

https://www.infona.pl/resource/bwmeta1.element.elsevier-4551ffc8-6f3d-3e77-9672-bb40d3ccaebf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16221537

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23760603

http://150.254.179.40/cgi-bin/expertus.cgi?KAT=%2Fhome%2Fusers%2Fsplendor%2Fpub% 2Fpar%2F&FST=data.fst&FDT=data.fdt&ekran=ISO&lnkmsk=2&cond=AND&mask=2&F_00=02&V_00=Abreu-G%B3owacka+Monica+

Are there any other genetic studies on them?

=============================

This study deals with Y-DNA in Wielkopolska region:

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

However, a lot of samples were just described as "K-M9" (?!). K-M9 samples from this study in Table II.:

Table II. (pages 3 - 10) - 17 Y-STR haplotypes for the Greater Poland population, haplogroups and frequency.

http://s12.postimg.org/yfo6lc7wt/K_M9_samples.png

Silesian
01-26-2016, 11:29 PM
There are genetic studies on Kashubians, Kociewiaks, Kurpie and Sorbs, but I have not seen many on Silesians and Wielkopolans.
Some of the R1b-EE in Silesia >R1b>R-5587TMRCA 4300+ ybp+>BY593+TMRCA 1550ybp > R-Y14306+TMRCA 1300 ybp As you can see on map, possible cluster extends East.-466 C.E.+/-
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/
R-Y5587-Y5587formed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybpinfo
R-V2986-Y11816 * Y11817 * PH1723/BY593/V2986+19 SNPsformed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 1550 ybpinfo
R-Y14306-Y14306formed 1550 ybp, TMRCA 1300 ybpinfo
7501

brother branch R1b-Y5586+R-Y5586Y5586 * Y5588formed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 3600 ybpinfo found in Ossetians.
7502.

vettor
01-27-2016, 08:35 AM
There are genetic studies on Kashubians, Kociewiaks, Kurpie and Sorbs, but I have not seen many on Silesians and Wielkopolans.

On Silesians I have found the following studies (none of which deal with things such as haplogroup frequencies):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669549

http://www.forensicscience.pl/pfs/45_raczek.pdf

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/2_2007/2_07t.pdf

https://www.infona.pl/resource/bwmeta1.element.elsevier-0a16e08c-c20f-3c3f-9699-6e0ba90a21fb

http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medline/citation/20860300/

Are there any other genetic studies on them?

On Wielkopolans I have found the following studies (the study from the first link deals with Y-DNA haplogroups):

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=267630

http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(13)00249-4/fulltext

https://www.infona.pl/resource/bwmeta1.element.elsevier-4551ffc8-6f3d-3e77-9672-bb40d3ccaebf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16221537

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23760603

http://150.254.179.40/cgi-bin/expertus.cgi?KAT=%2Fhome%2Fusers%2Fsplendor%2Fpub% 2Fpar%2F&FST=data.fst&FDT=data.fdt&ekran=ISO&lnkmsk=2&cond=AND&mask=2&F_00=02&V_00=Abreu-G%B3owacka+Monica+

Are there any other genetic studies on them?

=============================

This study deals with Y-DNA in Wielkopolska region:

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

However, a lot of samples were just described as "K-M9" (?!). K-M9 samples from this study in Table II.:

Table II. (pages 3 - 10) - 17 Y-STR haplotypes for the Greater Poland population, haplogroups and frequency.

http://s12.postimg.org/yfo6lc7wt/K_M9_samples.png

using the predictor the first came out as

N1c @99.48 and then next one as
I2a1b3 @99.89

some they will different

Artmar
01-27-2016, 06:11 PM
There is none, I'm afraid. Pretty bad, because Silesia is a really interesting region for testing - provided that you test autochtonous population.

I can search for Silesian R1a haplotypes that we have in R1a Project.



By the way - study of Wielkopolans has the worst set of Y-SNPs I've ever seen, considering that its from the year of 2013 and not from 1999.
Unstable backmutation SRY1532.2 defining R1a, M46 (one of the defining mutations of N1c-Tat) that apparently didn't work, 2 mutations defining IJ included (like it was too hard to test M253 and, let's say, P37.2 ).

Gravetto-Danubian
01-28-2016, 11:09 PM
Yes, I'm not aware of any recent, in depth studies of Poland, Slovakia, or Czech lands. All I recall are a few STR-based studies from early 2000s (Eg Tambets 2004, Semino 2000). Pretty surprising these countries haven't put out anything more recently/ more resolved

Artmar
01-28-2016, 11:29 PM
I've managed to gather some data on R1a found in Silesian testees. Most of the data is from R1a Project and Polish Project, rest is from Germany-YDNA.
I decided not to include samples that don't have known kit number. N=41

SCHNEIDER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254, Wilamowice, #53667
TOMASZEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Żywiec, #N18946
STANIEK, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380*, Ochaby,#N116699
BULAWA, 282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343*, Krzyżowa, #N38418
LASSEK, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380(?), Warszowice, #295227
PATALONG, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?)Mysłowice, #188725
SOBALLA, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2902, Katowice, #N17626
ROSTEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Katowice, #349840
BENTKOWSKI, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962(?)>L1029(?), Chorzów, #178329
SZKOWRON, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905, Mikołów, #439329
GRZESIK,Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Budziska, #N33335
ROLKA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Międzyrzecze, #363910
KOCUR, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2, Niewiesze, #163780
SCHEMBOR, Z282>Z280>CTS1211 (?), Lubliniec, #164946
FREYER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Stare Karmonki, #E1842
SALZMANN, Z282>Z280>Z92, Głubczyce, #192545
LEX, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Głubczyce, #373829
BERNATEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905>YP1364, Głubczyce, #260299
SCHARON, Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123>Y934*, Krapkowice, #232033
GONDRO, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Raszowa, #E11879
STRZODA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP1337, Rostkowice, #288504
SAKRY, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Komprachcice, #N13715
MAXELON, Z282>Z280>CTS1211 (?), Błotnica Strzelecka , #249444
KLEEMANN, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2, Opole, #E5412
HANNAK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>YP414>YP610, Niemodlin, #154913
CHECHELSKI, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>YP414, Brzęczkowice, #376660
PACH, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Laskowice, #N3865
SZCZEPANEK, M417+ predicted (short haplotype, maybe Z280) , Stronie Śląskie, #156577
KRUSZKA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Srebrna Góra, #114248
SCHOBER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962(?)>L1029(?), Wałbrzych, #102574
DINTER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Wałbrzych, #172283
LASSOTA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Oleśnica, #124617
MASUR, Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, Wrocław, #E8695
PFEILER, Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235(?), Wrocław, #161130
JUNG, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921, Wrocław, #97621
MIRKE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905, Świniary (now Wrocław), #338484
BAUM, Z93 (Z94-), Rościsławice, #E7096
SCHWABE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Milicz, #271280
NN, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Czerwonda Woda, #E4579
SCHULZE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254(?), Kałki, #N111740
HAMANN, Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>YP968>YP969>YP4335*, Legnica, #210950

Out of which:
- 21 (51% of whole R1a!) people belong to M458>L260 branch
- 5 (12%) people belong to M458>L1029 branch
- 5 (12%) people belong to Z280>CTS1211>YP343 branch
- 7 (17%) people belong to other Z280 branches (likely under CTS3402 for the most of them)
- 2 (4,9%) people belong to Z93 branch

Krefter
01-29-2016, 12:05 AM
I've managed to gather some data on R1a found in Silesian testees. Most of the data is from R1a Project and Polish Project, rest is from Germany-YDNA.
I decided not to include samples that don't have known kit number. N=41

SCHNEIDER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254, Wilamowice, #53667
TOMASZEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Żywiec, #N18946
STANIEK, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380*, Ochaby,#N116699
BULAWA, 282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343*, Krzyżowa, #N38418
LASSEK, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380(?), Warszowice, #295227
PATALONG, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?)Mysłowice, #188725
SOBALLA, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2902, Katowice, #N17626
ROSTEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Katowice, #349840
BENTKOWSKI, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962(?)>L1029(?), Chorzów, #178329
SZKOWRON, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905, Mikołów, #439329
GRZESIK,Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Budziska, #N33335
ROLKA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Międzyrzecze, #363910
KOCUR, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2, Niewiesze, #163780
SCHEMBOR, Z282>Z280>CTS1211 (?), Lubliniec, #164946
FREYER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Stare Karmonki, #E1842
SALZMANN, Z282>Z280>Z92, Głubczyce, #192545
LEX, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Głubczyce, #373829
BERNATEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905>YP1364, Głubczyce, #260299
SCHARON, Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123>Y934*, Krapkowice, #232033
GONDRO, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Raszowa, #E11879
STRZODA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP1337, Rostkowice, #288504
SAKRY, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Komprachcice, #N13715
MAXELON, Z282>Z280>CTS1211 (?), Błotnica Strzelecka , #249444
KLEEMANN, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2, Opole, #E5412
HANNAK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>YP414>YP610, Niemodlin, #154913
CHECHELSKI, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>YP414, Brzęczkowice, #376660
PACH, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Laskowice, #N3865
SZCZEPANEK, M417+ predicted (short haplotype, maybe Z280) , Stronie Śląskie, #156577
KRUSZKA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Srebrna Góra, #114248
SCHOBER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962(?)>L1029(?), Wałbrzych, #102574
DINTER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Wałbrzych, #172283
LASSOTA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Oleśnica, #124617
MASUR, Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, Wrocław, #E8695
PFEILER, Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235(?), Wrocław, #161130
JUNG, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921, Wrocław, #97621
MIRKE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905, Świniary (now Wrocław), #338484
BAUM, Z93 (Z94-), Rościsławice, #E7096
SCHWABE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Milicz, #271280
NN, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Czerwonda Woda, #E4579
SCHULZE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254(?), Kałki, #N111740
HAMANN, Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>YP968>YP969>YP4335*, Legnica, #210950

Out of which:
- 21 (51% of whole R1a!) people belong to M458>L260 branch
- 5 (12%) people belong to M458>L1029 branch
- 5 (12%) people belong to Z280>CTS1211>YP343 branch
- 7 (17%) people belong to other Z280 branches (likely under CTS3402 for the most of them)
- 2 (4,9%) people belong to Z93 branch

This is evidence there's lots of R1a-mega lineages in East Europe. This is obviously because R1a-M417 expanded with mega-lineages. We shouldn't be surprised German Corded Ware R1a is R1a-M417* instead of being apart of modern R1a-mega lineages.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-29-2016, 12:27 AM
This is evidence there's lots of R1a-mega lineages in East Europe. This is obviously because R1a-M417 expanded with mega-lineages. We shouldn't be surprised German Corded Ware R1a is R1a-M417* instead of being apart of modern R1a-mega lineages.

Can you clarify what you mean ?

Krefter
01-29-2016, 01:09 AM
Can you clarify what you mean ?

R1a in East Europe isn't diverse, most belong to a handful of subclades. We see the same pattern in all R1a-M417. In Scandinavia 90%+ of R1a is R1a Z282>Z284 and R1a M417>L664. In Timber Grace/Sintashta/Andronovo ~100%(One is Euro-Z282) of R1a so far is R1a-Z93>Z94>Z2124. Most R1a in South-Central Asia is R1a Z93>Z94>L657.

It looks like R1a-M417 it expanded with "mega-lineages" everywhere it went. German Corded Ware R1a-M417* is a snap-shot/fossil of R1a-M417 lineages that didn't become mega-lineages.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-29-2016, 03:59 AM
R1a in East Europe isn't diverse, most belong to a handful of subclades. We see the same pattern in all R1a-M417. In Scandinavia 90%+ of R1a is R1a Z282>Z284 and R1a M417>L664. In Timber Grace/Sintashta/Andronovo ~100%(One is Euro-Z282) of R1a so far is R1a-Z93>Z94>Z2124. Most R1a in South-Central Asia is R1a Z93>Z94>L657.

Yes I understand that part. European R1a is M417, and specifically 90% Z282, plus some L664, and 'older' forms.


It looks like R1a-M417 it expanded with "mega-lineages" everywhere it went. German Corded Ware R1a-M417* is a snap-shot/fossil of R1a-M417 lineages that didn't become mega-lineages.

Well, most modern lineages which are frequent are "mega-lineages". That's just the way Y DNA works. There are j2 mega-lineages, and I2 mega-lineage, and E-V13 mega-lineage. Perhaps we should use more scientific terminology instead of "mega-lineages".

Specific extant M417 which expanded rapidly are those like L1029 above, and they expaded rather recently. This was over and above M417, which itself was a relatively recent expansion. That's what you're seeing.

Krefter
01-29-2016, 06:06 AM
Well, most modern lineages which are frequent are "mega-lineages". That's just the way Y DNA works. There are j2 mega-lineages, and I2 mega-lineage, and E-V13 mega-lineage. Perhaps we should use more scientific terminology instead of "mega-lineages".

And I don't get why there are so many mtDNA/Y DNA megal-lineages. Hopefully people are trying to figure out this happens all over the world.


Specific extant M417 which expanded rapidly are those like L1029 above, and they expaded rather recently. This was over and above M417, which itself was a relatively recent expansion. That's what you're seeing.

That's exactly what I'm thinking.

Artmar
01-29-2016, 08:21 AM
]It looks like R1a-M417 it expanded with "mega-lineages" everywhere it went. German Corded Ware R1a-M417* is a snap-shot/fossil of R1a-M417 lineages that didn't become mega-lineages.
Because it was shortly replaced by Bell Beaker, although it seems that some of the lines did make it partially, like CTS4385>L664. I also think that some Z280* and Z283* singletons were still present in some areas of Germany and Switzerland with descendants living even today(what's actually evident basing on some testees from aforementioned areas) but apparently with no further opportunity to explode and become mega-lineages. They were assimilated at some point, apparently, but they weren't a bosses anymore.

Honestly, I doubt that those Corded Ware lines represented M417*, since at least one of such lines from Bergrheinfeldt was later found to be well estabilished under L664. But even if they actually were M417*(TMRCA of what is now M417 is considered to be living just ~5500 ybp), I hope that we will soon find more of such bastards that left living descendants. We have a whole cathegory of people who did 37 markers (or even more of them) that are within some unpredictable branches, so no one knows who they really are until they test some SNPs or even better - order an NGS product like Big Y or Y-Elite. But still, it won't change a bigger picture.

Tomenable
01-29-2016, 06:59 PM
In Timber Grace/Sintashta/Andronovo ~100%(One is Euro-Z282) of R1a so far is R1a-Z93>Z94>Z2124.

Which one is Z282 ??? I must have missed that sample.

As for Corded Ware - at the moment we have the following picture when it comes to R1a subclades in CW:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7529&d=1454094202

I marked areas from which we have samples (except for proto-Unetice RISE431 and low coverage RISE1):

http://s11.postimg.org/iktba9h5v/CW_Y_DNA.png

Krefter
01-29-2016, 09:25 PM
Which one is Z282 ??? I must have missed that sample.


RISE525, Meshovskaya culture: R1a1a1b1a2b(1a1a): Z280+, CTS1211+, YP343+, YP340+, YP371+, Y11175+. Source: Vladimir Tagankin from YFull (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4664-Request-Y-DNA-haplogroup-results-from-Allentoft-2015&p=91355&viewfull=1#post91355)

Gravetto-Danubian
01-29-2016, 09:56 PM
RISE525, Meshovskaya culture: R1a1a1b1a2b(1a1a): Z280+, CTS1211+, YP343+, YP340+, YP371+, Y11175+. Source: Vladimir Tagankin from YFull (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4664-Request-Y-DNA-haplogroup-results-from-Allentoft-2015&p=91355&viewfull=1#post91355)

But this sample wasn't dated . So it could be a Russian from 1853 ha ha
Hence it was "controversial".

Tomenable
01-29-2016, 10:55 PM
But this sample wasn't dated . So it could be a Russian from 1853 ha ha
Hence it was "controversial".

Many Bell Beaker samples were also not dated - so they could be Germans from 1872 with R1b... :)

No, I think that we can safely assume that it was really a sample from Mezhovskaya. ;)

Tomenable
01-29-2016, 10:58 PM
Last time I checked, Mezhovskaya RISE525 sample was considered to be R1a1a1b-Z645* (xZ283, xZ93):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5590-Volga-Steppe-Khvalynsk-culture-(Copper-Age)-from-5200-4000-BC-R1a-and-R1b-together!&p=125412&viewfull=1#post125412

That's why I was surprised by Krefter's post. But if Tagankin reads so, then apparently it is under Z280.

Tomenable
01-29-2016, 11:01 PM
Is Vladimir Tagankin sure that RISE525 is not Z645* ??? That would be a nice link between Z282/3 and Z93/4.

Well, not exactly a link, because it is too young to be ancestral to the latter two branches, hence *, of course.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-29-2016, 11:57 PM
And I don't get why there are so many mtDNA/Y DNA megal-lineages. Hopefully people are trying to figure out this happens all over the world.
.

For Y mega-lineages - i suspect it boils down to 2 things:

1- migration, admixture and local 'turnovers' was a constant in prehistory - as late as the Middle Ages.

2 - men (the Y chromosome) has a lower effective populations size compared to females.

Starting with (2). In a given population men and women would roughly 50% each, but the reproductive success (ie whether a man has offspring) is more variable. Some will have few some none. This is linked to several facts - some of which you have stated - 'chiefs' and princely men are more likely to have offspring becuase they are healthier, have more resources, more women, more likely to actually *live*. That, and exogamy, patrilocailty and other social factors. (Lions and other mammals roam around in packs of males - which kill off other male competition, incl the young- if becoming newly dominant). But is has also to do with biological factors - that is to say, selection might act on Y chromosome. This doesn't bring about the patterns we see, but it might play a role in accentuating them.

With (1) (still slightly hypothetical) we would see a reccurring trend of Y lineage dominance and replacement. At 43 kya, it might have all been that F*(IJK) like Oase, later probably almost wholly C, after the Ice Age mostly I*, with Neolithic farmers mostly G2a, with CWC came R1a. So each new wave changed the Y DNA landscape disproportionatly more than overall genomes. That's why we have been studying Y lineages for all this time - it a very good tracker of migrational events.

So the case with R1 and Yamnaya/ BB/ CWC isn;t unique, although by the Early Bronze Age, heirarchicization & heridity reached an apogee c.f. earlier periods.

But we need formal models (not D stats, but old fashioned population genetics). This'll come Im sure, but i suspect people are still biding their time to get a fuller collection of aDNA. then we can better explain the demography and reproductive patterns, social impacts, etc of the 'waves of migration'. I suspect they'll start with modelling the Neolithic.


Because it was shortly replaced by Bell Beaker, although it seems that some of the lines did make it partially, like CTS4385>L664. I also think that some Z280* and Z283* singletons were still present in some areas of Germany and Switzerland with descendants living even today(what's actually evident basing on some testees from aforementioned areas) but apparently with no further opportunity to explode and become mega-lineages. They were assimilated at some point, apparently, but they weren't a bosses anymore.


Not to mention later still changes - Unetice, Trziniec, Lusatian, Pomoranian culture, etc. These latter were just "local turnovers" - still dominated by R1a (possibly also some I2) but changing the degree and specific types. Eg I am interested to see if Wielbark culture genomes are some type of M458 - but not the L1029 which dominates today in Poland.

lgmayka
01-30-2016, 12:31 AM
Eg I am interested to see if Wielbark culture genomes are some type of M458 - but not the L1029 which dominates today in Poland.
L260 is at least as common as L1029 in modern Poland, if not more so.

leonardo
01-30-2016, 12:47 AM
L260 is at least as common as L1029 in modern Poland, if not more so.

Would you say (generally speaking) that L260 is more common in the south of Poland and L1029 in the north, or perhaps - more precisely, L260 is more common in the southeast and L1029 in the northwest?

lgmayka
01-30-2016, 02:48 AM
Would you say (generally speaking) that L260 is more common in the south of Poland and L1029 in the north, or perhaps - more precisely, L260 is more common in the southeast and L1029 in the northwest?
This map of L260 (http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/35/) shows it fairly common all across Poland, but more concentrated in the northeast and southeast. This map of YP254 (http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/180/) (downstream from L260) is similar.

This map of L1029 (http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/371/) is sparse by comparison, but probably doesn't include those who tested positive for a downstream SNP such as YP593 in this map (http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/931/).

Tomenable
03-09-2016, 12:17 PM
By the way - study of Wielkopolans has the worst set of Y-SNPs I've ever seen, considering that its from the year of 2013 and not from 1999.
Unstable backmutation SRY1532.2 defining R1a, M46 (one of the defining mutations of N1c-Tat) that apparently didn't work, 2 mutations defining IJ included (like it was too hard to test M253 and, let's say, P37.2 ).

In the original study, they had such results (n=201):

R1a = 119 (59,2%)
K-M9 = 38 (18,9%)
R1b = 30 (14,9%)
IJ = 13 (6,5%)
N/A = 1 (0,5%)

After predicting K-M9 & N/A with Nevgen (n=201):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=144503&viewfull=1#post144503

R1a = 119 + 24 = 143 (71,1%)
R1b = 30 + 7 = 37 (18,4%)
IJ = 13 + 6 = 19 (9,5%)
N1c = 0 + 2 = 2 (1%)

Over 70 percent of R1a, more than in Sorbs and Kashubians!

Tomenable
03-09-2016, 11:37 PM
Oh, it seems that there are huge problems with this sample set.

Michał wrote there is only 54,2% of R1a in this sample of 201 from Wielkopolska:



I'm waiting for Michał's next post to see why he thinks (if he really thinks so) that ~70% for Wielkopolska is wrong.

Yes, I am very strongly convinced that this number is wrong.
Firstly, let me note that there is absolutely no correlation between the SNP data provided by the authors and the STR-based haplogroup prediction for particular haplotypes (as performed by myself; I used the Whit Athey's predictor in all those cases when such prediction was beyond my competence). Secondly, the STR results for DYS437 are apparently wrong for a large group of 31 samples (ID125-ID155), and since this was probably an error made when constructing the table, we cannot be sure that the remaining STR data are correct. However, when ignoring those DYS437 results, the frequencies for predicted haplogroups are as follows:

R1a - 109/201 (54.2%)
including L260 - 41/201 (20.4%)
R1b - 39/201 (19.4%)
I1 - 21/201 (10.4%)
I2 - 20/201 (10.0%)
E1b - 3/201 (1.5%)
G2a - 2/201 (1%)
J1 - 2/201 (1%)
N - 2/201 (1%)
Q - 1/201 (0.5%)
L - 1/201 (0.5%)
T - 1/201 (0.5%)

As you can see, the overall frequency of R1a is more or less what one would expect for the entire country. However, the frequencies of L260, R1b, I1 and I2 seem to be a bit higher than the average values for the entire country (though I doubt such differences are statistically significant when using samples of this size).

Tomenable
05-21-2016, 04:46 PM
I've managed to gather some data on R1a found in Silesian testees. Most of the data is from R1a Project and Polish Project, rest is from Germany-YDNA.
I decided not to include samples that don't have known kit number. N=41

SCHNEIDER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254, Wilamowice, #53667
TOMASZEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Żywiec, #N18946
STANIEK, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380*, Ochaby,#N116699
BULAWA, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343*, Krzyżowa, #N38418
LASSEK, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380(?), Warszowice, #295227
PATALONG, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?)Mysłowice, #188725
SOBALLA, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2902, Katowice, #N17626
ROSTEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Katowice, #349840
BENTKOWSKI, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962(?)>L1029(?), Chorzów, #178329
SZKOWRON, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905, Mikołów, #439329
GRZESIK,Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Budziska, #N33335
ROLKA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Międzyrzecze, #363910
KOCUR, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2, Niewiesze, #163780
SCHEMBOR, Z282>Z280>CTS1211 (?), Lubliniec, #164946
FREYER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Stare Karmonki, #E1842
SALZMANN, Z282>Z280>Z92, Głubczyce, #192545
LEX, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Głubczyce, #373829
BERNATEK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905>YP1364, Głubczyce, #260299
SCHARON, Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123>Y934*, Krapkowice, #232033
GONDRO, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Raszowa, #E11879
STRZODA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP1337, Rostkowice, #288504
SAKRY, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Komprachcice, #N13715
MAXELON, Z282>Z280>CTS1211 (?), Błotnica Strzelecka , #249444
KLEEMANN, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2, Opole, #E5412
HANNAK, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>YP414>YP610, Niemodlin, #154913
CHECHELSKI, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>YP414, Brzęczkowice, #376660
PACH, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Laskowice, #N3865
SZCZEPANEK, M417+ predicted (short haplotype, maybe Z280), Stronie Śląskie, #156577
KRUSZKA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Srebrna Góra, #114248
SCHOBER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962(?)>L1029(?), Wałbrzych, #102574
DINTER, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260(?), Wałbrzych, #172283
LASSOTA, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Oleśnica, #124617
MASUR, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, Wrocław, #E8695
PFEILER, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235(?), Wrocław, #161130
JUNG, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921, Wrocław, #97621
MIRKE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905, Świniary (now Wrocław), #338484
BAUM, Z93 (Z94-), Rościsławice, #E7096
SCHWABE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029, Milicz, #271280
NN, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Czerwonda Woda, #E4579
SCHULZE, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254(?), Kałki, #N111740
HAMANN, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>YP968>YP969>YP4335*, Legnica, #210950

Out of which:
- 21 (51% of whole R1a!) people belong to M458>L260 branch
- 5 (12%) people belong to M458>L1029 branch
- 5 (12%) people belong to Z280>CTS1211>YP343 branch
- 7 (17%) people belong to other Z280 branches (likely under CTS3402 for the most of them)
- 2 (4,9%) people belong to Z93 branch

We can add ten more samples to this excellent list:

WARKUS, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905>YP1364, Wrocław, #329542
WIANCKO, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>YP315>YP314, Wrocław, #N156262
VOGT (born 1841), Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260, Zielona Góra, #173783
GAZDA, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237, Bładnice Górne, #465642
KONARSKI, Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905>YP1364>YP3927, Panki, #N77026
NOWAK, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951>YP977>YP1018, Frydek-Místek, #302244
NN, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278, Ostrava, #N35951
KAKOSCHKE, Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>YP315>YP314>YP1409, Brody (German: Pförten), #329518

WEDERICH (born 1921), M417+, Zielona Góra (German: Grünberg), #40132
KUBE (born 1832), M512+, Osina Mała (German: Wenig Nossen), #464408

Tomenable
05-21-2016, 06:52 PM
And one more to the list:

P. WŁOSTOWIC (1080-1153 AD), Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP593, Wrocław, #199575

It is this guy, Piotr Włostowic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_Włostowic

Kit #199575 on FTDNA. I wonder who exactly is his modern descendant that tested his Y-DNA? :)

=================

And we can also add Korfanty (kit #277963) - who was R1a-L644:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojciech_Korfanty

Check:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1516-R1a-and-Corded-Ware&p=156163&viewfull=1#post156163

And here Artmar posted more details about that Korfanty sample:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1516-R1a-and-Corded-Ware&p=156257&viewfull=1#post156257

Tomenable
05-21-2016, 10:27 PM
I1-M253 haplogroup - 13 samples from Silesia:

kit #372952 - Silesia, RAUTENBERG (M253+)
kit #E14316 - Żagań, VON NAUMANN (Z58+)
kit #N11115 - Stary Kisielin/Zielona Góra, LIEHR (Z58+)
kit #468007 - Boronów, BULLA (S2077/S2078+)
kit #91645 - Dąbrówka Dolna, WELNA (Z63+)
kit #119162 - Kobyla Góra, MAGNUSKI (L1237+)
kit #188658 - Pietrzykowice, BIALEK (S2078+)
kit #228663 - Karvina, KOPEL (Z140+)
kit #268090 - Rokliny, FRANKE (M253+)
kit #115240 - Stobrawa, DEUTSCHER (Z2336/L22+)
kit #N37278 - Wrocław, DEMSKE (M253+)
kit #167103 - Sośnicowice/Tarnowskie Góry, BOTUR (Z63+)
kit #155178 - Kłodzko, ROSENBERGER (Z140+)

Tomenable
05-21-2016, 10:57 PM
R1b-M269 haplogroup - only 11 samples from Silesia:

kit #227479 - Cieszyn, FIEDLER (M269+)
kit #E1877 - Lower Silesia, QUADE (M269+)
kit #E2541 - Ludwigsthal, SCHIRM (U106, S10185+)
kit #132073 - Kotulin Mały, KORUS (M269+)
kit #B4978 - Ostrava, SELIGA (U152, DF103+)
kit #422423 - Oława, KARPEL (U152, Z49+)
kit #N89895 - Żagań, SCHULZ (U106+)
kit #N114363 - Nowa Sól, SCHMIDT (P312, DF99+)
kit #E4911, E14624 - Kolsko, LEFEBER (P312, L21+)
kit #N11619 - Okunin, SCHILLING (M269+)
kit #176123 - Gliwice, KONIECZNY (Z2103, BY593+)

Tomenable
05-21-2016, 11:14 PM
J2-M172 haplogroup - 5 samples from Silesia:

kit #B27771 - Suszec, JURECZKO (Z631+)
kit #278599 - Wrocław, GABEL (M92+)
kit #N27660 - Zabrze, NN (M172+)
kit #N45394 - Silesia, GILL (FGC21360+)
kit #66138 - Wrocław, ZWIEFKA (L283+)

Tomenable
05-22-2016, 12:46 AM
E1b1b haplogroup - 4 samples from Silesia:

kit #E18170 - Sternalice, STEINERT (PF1975+)
kit #83418 - Racibórz, FIEGLER (V13+)
kit #233387 - Krasne Pole (Ostrava), HONHEISER (V13+)
kit #155147 - Lubin, SEIFLEIN (V13+)

G2a haplogroup - 3 samples:

kit #285720 - Gliwice, BEIDEL (Y8903+)
kit #231079 - Uszyce, KOWALSKI (P15+)
kit #265686 - Lutomia Górna, POHL (L13/L78+)

N1c haplogroup - 3 samples:

kit #N49541 - Rydułtowy, MEISEL (L1025+)
kit #N107445 - Złotoryja, NOWAK (Y4706+)
kit #E11197 - Górki, BLACH (L1025+)

G2b haplogroup - 2 samples:

kit #123331 - Bolesławiec, BRODA, (M377+)
kit #72341 - Podkamień, ADER (M377+)

J1 haplogroup - 2 samples:

kit #77418 - Praszka, GUTFRAJND (Z18271+)
kit #N13360 - Pszczyna, WARZECHA (P58+)

I2a haplogroup - only 1 sample:

kit #300972 - Laskówka, SCHINDLER (CTS5966+)

T haplogroup - 1 sample:

kit #161332 - Zielona Góra, SCHÜTZ (P322+)

Q haplogroup - 1 sample:

kit #89372 - Mikołów, DE KRUPPA (L275+)

===========================
===========================

R1a haplogroup - 54 samples from Silesia:

kit #464408 - Osina Mała, KUBE (M512+)
kit #40132 - Zielona Góra, WEDERICH (M417+)

Branch R1a-L664:

kit #277963 - Siemianowice Śląskie, KORFANTY (L644+)

Branch R1a-Z280:

kit #156577 - Stronie Śląskie, SZCZEPANEK (M417+, Z280?)

Z92:

kit #192545 - Głubczyce, SALZMANN (Z280>Z92+)

CTS1211:

kit #164946 - Lubliniec, SCHEMBOR (Z280>CTS1211?)
kit #249444 - Błotnica Strzelecka, MAXELON (Z280>CTS1211?)

YP343:

kit #N38418 - Krzyżowa, BULAWA (Z280>CTS1211>YP343*)

YP380:

kit #N116699 - Ochaby, STANIEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380*)
kit #295227 - Warszowice, LASSEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380?)

P278.2:

kit #E5412 - Opole, KLEEMANN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
kit #N35951 - Ostrawa, NN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
kit #163780 - Niewiesze, KOCUR (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)

CTS3402>YP237:

kit #465642 - Bładnice Górne, GAZDA (Z280, CTS3402>YP237+)
kit #161130 - Wrocław, PFEILER (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP235?)
kit #302244 - Frydek-Mistek, NOWAK (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP951, YP1018+)

CTS3402>Y33:

kit #210950 - Legnica, HAMANN (Z280, CTS3402>Y33, YP4335*)
kit #N17626 - Katowice, SOBALLA (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2902+)

S18681

kit #E8695 - Wrocław, MASUR (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681)
kit #N156262 - Wrocław, WIANCKO (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314+)
kit #329518 - Brody (Pförten), KAKOSCHKE (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314>YP1409+)

Branch R1a-M458:

Clade L260:

kit #188725 - Mysłowice, PATALONG (M458, L260?)
kit #349840 - Katowice, ROSTEK (M458, L260?)
kit #172283 - Wałbrzych, DINTER (M458, L260?)
kit #124617 - Oleśnica, LASSOTA (M458, L260?)
kit #N33335 - Budziska, GRZESIK (M458, L260?)
kit #N18946 - Żywiec, TOMASZEK (M458, L260?)
kit #N13715 - Komprachcice, SAKRY (M458, L260+)
kit #363910 - Międzyrzecze, ROLKA (M458, L260+)
kit #E1842 - Stare Karmonki, FREYER (M458, L260+)
kit #N3865 - Laskowice, PACH (M458, L260+)
kit #114248 - Srebrna Góra, KRUSZKA (M458, L260+)
kit #E4579 - Czerwona Woda, NN (M458, L260+)
kit #173783 - Zielona Góra, VOGT (M458, L260+)

YP1337:

kit #288504 - Rostkowice, STRZODA (M458, L260>YP1337+)

YP254:

kit #N111740 - Kałki, SCHULZE (M458, L260, YP256>YP254?)
kit #53667 - Wilamowice, SCHNEIDER (M458, L260, YP254+)
kit #376660 - Brzęczkowice, CHECHELSKI (M458, L260, YP254>YP414+)
kit #154913 - Niemodlin, HANNAK (M458, L260, YP254>YP414>YP610+)

Y2905:

kit #439329 - Mikołów, SZKOWRON (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
kit #338484 - Świniary, MIRKE (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
kit #260299 - Głubczyce, BERNATEK (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
kit #329542 - Wrocław, WARKUS (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
kit #N77026 - Panki, KONARSKI (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364>YP3927+)

Clade L1029:

kit #178329 - Chorzów, BENTKOWSKI (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
kit #102574 - Wałbrzych, SCHOBER (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
kit #373829 - Głubczyce, LEX (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #E11879 - Raszowa, GONDRO (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #271280 - Milicz, SCHWABE (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #199575 - Wrocław, Piotr WŁOSTOWIC (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP593+)
kit #97621 - Wrocław, JUNG (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921+)

Branch R1a-Z93:

kit #E7096 - Rościsławice, BAUM (Z93, Z94-)
kit #232033 - Krapkowice, SCHARON (Z93, Z2124>Z2123, Y934*)
kit #N103033 - Silesia, CHRISTMANN (Z93, Z2124>Z2122, CTS6+)

Gravetto-Danubian
05-22-2016, 01:05 AM
Shouldn't we be de-identifying these gentlemen ?

Tomenable
05-22-2016, 01:18 AM
Summary of Silesian (pre-war) Y-DNA haplogroups:

Sample size = 100

R1a ---- 54
I1 ------ 13
R1b ---- 11 (surprisingly low)
J2 ------ 5
E1b ---- 4
G2a ---- 3
N1c ---- 3
J1 ------ 2
G2b ---- 2
I2a ----- 1 (surprisingly low)
T ------- 1
Q ------- 1

Total - 100

For details see the list of samples in posts #27-30.

Tomenable
05-22-2016, 01:20 AM
Shouldn't we be de-identifying these gentlemen ?

They all lived in the 17th, early 20th, 18th, 19th, etc. centuries.

And also, this data is openly/publicly available in FTDNA Projects.

Tomenable
05-22-2016, 09:41 AM
And R1a subclades:

Z283 - 48/54
--Z280 - 18/48
----Z92 - 1/18
----CTS1211* - 8/18
------CTS3402 - 8/18
--M458 - 30/48
----L260 - 23/30
----CTS11962** - 7/30
Z93 - 3/54
L664 - 1/54
M417+ - 1/54
M512+ - 1/54

*Without CTS3402
**Mostly L1029+

Tomenable
05-22-2016, 10:19 AM
Subclades of R1a-Z283 in Silesia and in the "Polish Project" (PL-LT Commonwealth Project):

1) "Polish Project" FTDNA:

R1a-Z283+ in total - 1167, including:

--Z280 - 595/1167
----Z92 - 119/595
----CTS1211* - 102/595
------CTS3402 - 363/595
--M458 - 556/1167
----L260 - 300/556
----CTS11962** - 247/556

2) Silesian sample FTDNA:

R1a-Z283+ in total - 48, including:

--Z280 - 18/48
----Z92 - 1/18
----CTS1211* - 8/18
------CTS3402 - 8/18
--M458 - 30/48
----L260 - 23/30
----CTS11962** - 7/30

*Without CTS3402
**Mostly L1029+

Tomenable
05-23-2016, 10:57 AM
It seems that this map validates that the sample of 100 posted above is representative:

The map is from Robert Gabel's website: http://www.robertgabel.de/

It also can be found here: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/germany/about/results

http://www.robertgabel.de/haplosgermany_e.png

Though my Silesian sample of 100 includes men from both German and Polish Projects.

Mis
05-23-2016, 12:41 PM
Was ist das R1b-M269 3%

Waldemar
05-23-2016, 03:08 PM
And one more to the list:

P. WŁOSTOWIC (1080-1153 AD), Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP593, Wrocław, #199575

It is this guy, Piotr Włostowic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_Włostowic

Kit #199575 on FTDNA. I wonder who exactly is his modern descendant that tested his Y-DNA?

An article from 2014:
"- Być może pozbierano kości Włostowiców i złożono tutaj? - zastanawia się prof. Kadłuczka. - Kości są badane przez krakowskich antropologów. W razie potrzeby i w miarę możliwości przeprowadzone zostaną testy DNA. Mamy kontakt z rodzinami wywodzącymi się od Włosta. Czekam z niecierpliwością na ich wyniki."

http://m.wroclaw.wyborcza.pl/wroclaw/1,106542,16409343,Jedyna_taka_Gorka__gdzie_czaszka mi_grali_w_kregle.html

Tomb of Piotr Wlostowic (destroyed by Lutherans in 1529):
http://s33.postimg.org/i2pzs9az3/Screen_Hunter_1397_May_23_15_13.jpg

Annales seu cronicae incliti Regni Poloniae about Piotr Wlostowic' funeral:

Pogrzeb miał wspaniały z udziałem wielkiej liczby Polaków, którzy uczciwszy go na uroczystościach żałobnych, okazali, jak bardzo kochali go za życia. Do dnia dzisiejszego imię komesa Piotra ze Skrzynna cieszy się u Polaków rozgłosem i sławą. Jego żona Maria, która zmarła później, została pochowana w tym samym grobowcu co Piotr, by zająć miejsce obok prochów małżonka.

Dwuwiersz wypisany na grobowcu świadczy, że pogrzebano tam oboje. Oto on:
„Tu Piotra z wierną żoną Marią w grób złożono Z woli ojca Wilhelma wspaniały marmur położono".

Do tej pory istnieje w Polsce wiele kościołów murowanych, które — jak podają — zostały przez niego wzniesione.
Source (http://www.dbp.wroc.pl/biblioteki/wroclaw/attachments/article/714/Jan%20D%C5%82ugosz_Roczniki%20czyli%20Kroniki%20s% C5%82awnego%20Kr%C3%B3lestwa%20Polskiego_V-VI.pdf)

https://suw.biblos.pk.edu.pl/resources/i1/i2/i6/i2/i5/r12625/StalaK_PrezbiteriumDawnego.pdf

http://wratislavia.archeo.uni.wroc.pl/15-tom/2-1.pdf

Tomenable
05-23-2016, 04:02 PM
Was ist das R1b-M269 3%

Probably subclades of R1b-M269 other than L51 (old name: ht35, haplotype 35):

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif

Tomenable
05-23-2016, 05:20 PM
As for this sample:

KUBE (born 1832), M512+, Osina Mała (German: Wenig Nossen), #464408


Kube is most likely Y2902. I've found even more samples but to some of them I have no access at all.

By the way - FTDNA Silesian Project will be established in a few weeks:


I will be possibly included as an admin to the Silesian DNA project (which is to be opened in the next few weeks). We will gather as many "safe" samples as we can and many autochtonous Silesians are to be tested thanks to the Silius Radicum association.

I did some searching, and it is a very interesting association indeed:

http://siliusradicum.pl/category/genealogia-genetyczna/

http://siliusradicum.pl/strony-poswiecone-dna/

http://siliusradicum.pl/dna-naszych-przodkow/

https://www.facebook.com/siliusradicum/

All in Polish, but there is: http://free-website-translation.com/?en

Silesian
05-23-2016, 06:55 PM
Was ist das R1b-M269 3%
Y-5587-Silesians
Y-5586- Digor Ossetians
http://oi65.tinypic.com/103egx3.jpg

http://oi64.tinypic.com/71pi7a.jpg

http://oi67.tinypic.com/11htoaw.jpg

see-http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/637/

Tomenable
05-24-2016, 06:52 AM
By the way:

Here is where Rebala's "Paternal landscape" 2012 study German samples were from:

7 - Mecklenburg (only pre-WW2 inhabitants)
8 - western Bavaria (as above)
5 - Slavic Sorbs (as above)

7+8 = German samples (Krzysztof Rebala's study) / Y-DNA from Robert Gabel's map:

http://s33.postimg.org/4ntdd0xdr/Meck_Bav.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/0Plxrlm.png

So Rebala found "significant differentiation" because he sampled only these regions.

Link to Rebala's study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3598329/

Gabel's full map: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6315-Genetics-of-Silesians-and-Wielkopolans&p=158997&viewfull=1#post158997

Waldemar
05-24-2016, 07:57 AM
And one more to the list:

P. WŁOSTOWIC (1080-1153 AD), Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP593, Wrocław, #199575

It is this guy, Piotr Włostowic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_Włostowic

Kit #199575 on FTDNA. I wonder who exactly is his modern descendant that tested his Y-DNA?

Kit #199575 (Dunin-Wasowicz, Poland) - R-YP593 (Dunin Clan DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Dunin/default.aspx?section=yresults))

The Dunin-Wasowicz family (http://www.genealogia.okiem.pl/genealogia.php?n=wasowicz) (Labedz coat of arms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81ab%C4%99d%C5%BA_coat_of_arms))
Stowarzyszenie Członkow Rodu Duninow herbu Labedz (https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stowarzyszenie_Rodu_Dunin%C3%B3w)
Duninowie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duninowie)

According to Jan Dlugosz Piotr Wlostowic' family originated in Denmark, explaining his later nickname, 'Dunin', "the Dane"...but his DNA is rather typically West Slavic. Tomenable about Denmark-Poland relations before the 1100s wrote here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7096-Athanasiadis-et-al-2016-Genetic-History-of-Denmark

AJL
05-24-2016, 09:58 PM
I was reading an interesting article (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/09/searching-for-nazi-gold) recently that said that certain parts of Silesia were settled almost entirely at the end of, and after, the Second World War, primarily from eastern Poland, so certain areas might not be as representative of local genetics as others -- and I am glad you said "pre-war." In the cases where there are both German-sounding and Polish-sounding names in the same subclade, I tend to think that the subclade is more rooted in the area, but maybe that's not the most scientific approach. Certainly one of those cases (#N103033) is known to have remote Jewish ancestry.

Tomenable
05-25-2016, 06:52 AM
I was reading an interesting article (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/09/searching-for-nazi-gold) recently that said that certain parts of Silesia were settled almost entirely at the end of, and after, the Second World War, primarily from eastern Poland, so certain areas might not be as representative of local genetics as others -- and I am glad you said "pre-war." In the cases where there are both German-sounding and Polish-sounding names in the same subclade, I tend to think that the subclade is more rooted in the area, but maybe that's not the most scientific approach. Certainly one of those cases (#N103033) is known to have remote Jewish ancestry.

If you are interested, here is a good series of PDF e-books about the history of Silesia, in English:

Vol. 1. (years c. 950-1526) - http://www.bibliotekacyfrowa.pl/Content/49790/Cuius_regio_vol_1.pdf

Vol. 2. (years 1526–1740) - http://www.bibliotekacyfrowa.pl/Content/73766/Cuius_regio_vol_2.pdf

Vol. 3. (years 1740-1918) - to my knowledge, this volume has not been published yet.

Vol. 4. (years 1918-1945) - http://www.bibliotekacyfrowa.pl/Content/64229/Cuius_regio_vol_4.pdf

Vol. 5. (years 1945-2015) - http://www.bibliotekacyfrowa.pl/Content/76597/Cuius_regio_vol_5.pdf

AJL
05-25-2016, 02:18 PM
Thanks, looks like a good series!

Tomenable
06-20-2016, 08:21 PM
Summary of Silesian (pre-war) Y-DNA haplogroups:

Sample size = 100

R1a ---- 54
I1 ------ 13
R1b ---- 11 (surprisingly low)
J2 ------ 5
E1b ---- 4
G2a ---- 3
N1c ---- 3
J1 ------ 2
G2b ---- 2
I2a ----- 1 (surprisingly low)
T ------- 1
Q ------- 1

Total - 100

For details see the list of samples in posts #27-30.

A map with 96 of these samples (4 have no exact location given so I couldn't place them):

https://s31.postimg.org/m55t8jgor/Map_Silesia.png

https://s31.postimg.org/m55t8jgor/Map_Silesia.png

Tomenable
06-20-2016, 08:41 PM
It seems that R1b was most frequent in north-western part of Silesia, around Grünberg:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zielona_Góra

====
Edit:

What if we divide the region into its two historical parts?:

https://s32.postimg.org/6op30x89h/Lower_and_Upper.png

Historical border between Upper and Lower Silesia:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-y0xiVjGh3mM/UQ2Rid2-q0I/AAAAAAAAANA/AtE3zQle544/s1600/historyczny+ślask.jpg

^ If we apply that line of divide, we can see lower % of R1a in Lower Silesia (as expected):

Upper Silesia - 48 samples of which 30 R1a = 62,5%
Lower Silesia - 48 samples of which 23 R1a = 47,9%

However:

Grünberg region - 11 samples of which 4 R1a = 36,4%
Rest of Lower Silesia - 37 samples of which 19 R1a = 51,4%

Saetro
06-21-2016, 08:22 AM
Tomenable
It seems that R1b was most frequent in north-western part of Silesia, around Grünberg:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zielona_Góra

What if we divide the region into its two historical parts?:

The Old Lutherans and other ethnic Germans who came to South Australia from Silesia, were all from Lower Silesia, for all the examples I have seen (a few hundred).
About as far to the South East as they went was to Wroclaw, and this was usually to the university or seminary, for religious training.
Their stories of the Old Country mention people of Slavic ethnicity, so Lower Silesia still had many Poles.
But I think your proportions are probably a fairly good indication of who was more prevalent where.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-26-2016, 02:21 AM
There are genetic studies on Kashubians, Kociewiaks, Kurpie and Sorbs, but I have not seen many on Silesians and Wielkopolans.

On Silesians I have found the following studies (none of which deal with things such as haplogroup frequencies):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669549

http://www.forensicscience.pl/pfs/45_raczek.pdf

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/2_2007/2_07t.pdf

https://www.infona.pl/resource/bwmeta1.element.elsevier-0a16e08c-c20f-3c3f-9699-6e0ba90a21fb

http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medline/citation/20860300/

Are there any other genetic studies on them?

On Wielkopolans I have found the following studies (the study from the first link deals with Y-DNA haplogroups):

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=267630

http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(13)00249-4/fulltext

https://www.infona.pl/resource/bwmeta1.element.elsevier-4551ffc8-6f3d-3e77-9672-bb40d3ccaebf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16221537

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23760603

http://150.254.179.40/cgi-bin/expertus.cgi?KAT=%2Fhome%2Fusers%2Fsplendor%2Fpub% 2Fpar%2F&FST=data.fst&FDT=data.fdt&ekran=ISO&lnkmsk=2&cond=AND&mask=2&F_00=02&V_00=Abreu-G%B3owacka+Monica+

Are there any other genetic studies on them?

=============================

This study deals with Y-DNA in Wielkopolska region:

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

However, a lot of samples were just described as "K-M9" (?!). K-M9 samples from this study in Table II.:

Table II. (pages 3 - 10) - 17 Y-STR haplotypes for the Greater Poland population, haplogroups and frequency.

http://s12.postimg.org/yfo6lc7wt/K_M9_samples.png

Have u come across any Y DNA studies on Sorbs ?

Saetro
06-26-2016, 11:56 PM
Have u come across any Y DNA studies on Sorbs ?

Veeramah's paper on the Sorbs' autosomal DNA Genetic variation in the Sorbs of eastern Germany
in the context of broader European genetic diversity http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n9/pdf/ejhg201165a.pdf
refers to four previous studies that covered aspects of yDNA -

9 Behar DM, Thomas MG, Skorecki K et al: Multiple origins of Ashkenazi levites:
y chromosome evidence for both near Eastern and European ancestries. Am J Hum
Genet 2003; 73: 768–779.
10 Rodig H, Grum M, Grimmecke HD: Population study and evaluation of 20 Y-chromosome
STR loci in Germans. Int J Legal Med 2007; 121: 24–27.
11 Immel UD, Krawczak M, Udolph J et al: Y-chromosomal STR haplotype analysis reveals
surname-associated strata in the East-German population. Eur J Hum Genet 2006; 14:
577–582.
12 Krawczak M, Lu TT, Willuweit S, Roewer L: Genetic diversity in the German population.
in: Cooper D, Kehrer-Sawatzki H (eds): Handbook of Human Molecular Evolution.
Wiley: Chichester, 2008, Vol 12, pp 451–456.

Unfortunately, one of these looks to be associated with criminology.
That Polish paper with the undifferentiated K-M9 samples was also for criminologists, who have different goals and may have felt this level of differentiation was quite enough for their needs.

Tomenable
06-27-2016, 05:03 PM
Have u come across any Y DNA studies on Sorbs ?

There are at least two - Behar's 2003 study on Levites, and Rębała's 2013 study.

Doron M. Behar sampled 112 Sorbs for Y-DNA, and Krzysztof Rębała sampled 123.

Behar found 71 with hg R1a (= 63,4%) and Rębała found 80 with R1a (= 65,0%).

lyakh
03-25-2017, 09:40 PM
About 35% of Sorbs from Rębała's study have M458 and DYS439=10, what suggests R1a-M458-L260-YP256 (or even YP254). Sorbs may have more YP254 than average Poles despite being not classified as Lechitic.

I suppose that in Silesia there was a lot of YP254 in medieval times. And I think that there was also lot of YP254 in Greater Poland.

Non-Lechitic Czechs appear to have relatively large share of YP1337, which is other branch of L260 than YP256 and has >10 on DYS439.

Silesian
03-26-2017, 06:43 PM
About 35% of Sorbs from Rębała's study have M458 and DYS439=10, what suggests R1a-M458-L260-YP256 (or even YP254). Sorbs may have more YP254 than average Poles despite being not classified as Lechitic.

I suppose that in Silesia there was a lot of YP254 in medieval times. And I think that there was also lot of YP254 in Greater Poland.

Non-Lechitic Czechs appear to have relatively large share of YP1337, which is other branch of L260 than YP256 and has >10 on DYS439.

Comparing Silesian R1a with Poles Finns and Slavs-TMRCA-
R-YP256 P258 * YP260+ TMRCA 2300 ybp
R-YP254Y TMRCA 2000 ybpinfo
R-YP1337Y11818 * FGC32029/YP1339 * FGC32031/YP134, TMRCA 1750 ybp

Silesian R1b-
R-V2986PH1723/BY593/V2986 * Y11811 * Y14079 TMRCA 1600 ybp


Other Polish- Here are some Polish.
I-S2078 TMRCA 3900 ybp
I-Y12911/A2423 TMRCA 750 ybp
R-L617 TMRCA 3800 ybp
R-Y14306 formed 1600 ybp, TMRCA 1300 ybp
R-PH2147 TMRCA 1600 ybp

Finnish
I-L258/S335formed TMRCA 1750 ybp

Slavic
I-PH908TMRCA 1850 ybp

Mis
03-26-2017, 07:28 PM
R1b-PH2147 weszło do Polski z Węgier.
Węgry > Morawy > Śląsk> Wielkopolska.
Żadne badania w Polsce tego wychwyciło.