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View Full Version : C2b1a1b-F3985, is it "Old European" just like C1a2-V20 ???



Tomenable
01-26-2016, 08:16 PM
"C Haplogroup Y-DNA" Project on Family Tree DNA includes the following samples from Europe (broken down by regions):

C1a2 (as we know, this is "Old European" subclade) - in total 15 samples:

C1a2-V20:

Ireland - 2
Upper Lusatia (Leipzig) - 1

C1a2a-V222:

Scotland - 1
Ireland - 1
England - 1
Calabria - 1
Subcarpathia (Komarnyky, near Lviv) - 1
Ithaca Island - 1
Hungary - 1
Ulster - 2

C1a2a2-Z29329:

Subcarpathia (Stare Miasto, near Rzeszów) - 1
Valencian Country (Soneja) - 1
Aragon - 1

==============================

But they have also other subclades, which have not yet been found in ancient DNA.

In particular C2b1a1b looks like it could also be present in Europe for a long time (what do you think?):

C2b1-F1699:

Rhineland - 1
Thuringia - 1
Upper Spiš (Slovenská Ves) - 1

C2b1a1b-F3985:

Vorarlberg - 1
Českobudějovická Pánev - 1
Mazovia - 2

===========================

As well as:

C2e-Z1338 (East Asian?):

Ireland - 1

C2b1c-F4002 (Mongolian?):

Russia (Sudzha, Kursk Oblast) - 1
Ukraine (Poltava) - 1
Bukovina (Rădăuţi) - 1

===========================

And samples of C in case of which exact subclade has not yet been tested:

Cornwall - 1
Rhineland - 1
Sicily - 1
Campania - 1

Tomenable
01-26-2016, 08:30 PM
Also in: "Y chromosome polymorphisms and haplotypes in South Saxony-Anhalt (Germany)":

http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(05)00021-6/pdf

Authors found 1 sample (frequency 0.43%) of C among 234 Germans from Halle an der Saale.

This sample is not included in the list from the Opening Post above.

Tomenable
01-26-2016, 08:55 PM
What strikes me is that even of these few samples of C1a2 and C2b1a which have been identified in modern Europe, most are carried by people who live in (or whose earliest known paternal ancestors come from) either mountainous, surrounded by mountains (basins / valleys) or water from most sides (islands / peninsulas), as well as otherwise remote regions. I don't think that it is just a coincidence.

lgmayka
01-26-2016, 09:54 PM
C2b1c-F4002 (Mongolian?)
This is the so-called Genghis Khan cluster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_Genghis_Khan#DNA_evidence). YFull's C-Y4541 (http://yfull.com/tree/C-Y4541/) is the alleged Genghis Khan progeny, with a TMRCA of 850 ybp. YFull places F4002 itself one level higher (http://yfull.com/tree/C-F1918/), with a TMRCA of 2600 ybp.

lgmayka
01-26-2016, 10:31 PM
C2b1a1b-F3985
According to ISOGG (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpC.html), the sibling of C2b1a1b-F3985 is C2b1a1a-P39, the Native American clade (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ydna_C-P39/default.aspx?section=yresults), so one might suspect that the two diverged in Central Asia. Unfortunately, not a single C-P39 has submitted his BAM file to YFull.

Megalophias
01-26-2016, 10:47 PM
F3895 shares many SNPs with a Manchu (from Shi Yan) and an Altai-Kizhi (from Karmin). Also related are Native American and Koryak lineages. How old the divergence is I couldn't say, but most likely post-LGM, and it could easily be very recent (Turko-Mongolic).

It's difficult to be sure that rare branches are specifically European because there simply isn't comparable data from the potential source populations in most cases.

apachewolf
03-14-2016, 08:55 AM
Regarding C-P39, that could change soon. When I can afford it, I may submit my full Big-Y BAM file to YFull.

apachewolf
03-15-2016, 05:24 AM
If you already have a C-P39 BAM file...

I got your PM, but I can't PM you back because I don't have 10 posts yet.

Anyway, interesting that payment isn't due until analysis is complete. Surprising that no one has uploaded this particular subclade yet. What would be your interest in the C-P39 group? Are you a researcher? I'll try to get it uploaded as soon as possible.

lgmayka
03-16-2016, 09:21 AM
Surprising that no one has uploaded this particular subclade yet. What would be your interest in the C-P39 group? Are you a researcher? I'll try to get it uploaded as soon as possible.
Yes, please submit to YFull as soon as possible. I am very interested to know how long ago Native American C-P39 diverged from Siberian-European C-F1756.

apachewolf
03-16-2016, 10:55 PM
I has been submitted to YFull.

apachewolf
03-30-2016, 12:48 AM
SNP is processed under 11100 for C-P39.

apachewolf
03-31-2016, 04:39 AM
Terminal SNPs: F3815 • F4039 • FGC16228/Y4501 • Y11100/FGC16525

Megalophias
03-31-2016, 04:56 PM
Terminal SNPs: F3815 • F4039 • FGC16228/Y4501 • Y11100/FGC16525
Which is Y11100* I guess. Any way to find out what the polypmorphic positions below Y11100 equivalent are? The most likely candidate to share downstream SNPs would be the B77 sample from Karmin et al.

apachewolf
03-31-2016, 06:41 PM
Which is Y11100* I guess. Any way to find out what the polypmorphic positions below Y11100 equivalent are? The most likely candidate to share downstream SNPs would be the B77 sample from Karmin et al.

Yes it is under Y11100* that I can see. I'm new at this, not sure if still processing because I don't show any Age estimation yet on my report. STR's are still processing. On Hg and SNP's positive section at very top just above P39 it shows S8587 level C-Y11100* private.

apachewolf
04-26-2016, 03:51 AM
New YFull 4.4 available showing subclade C-P39. How do I read Age Estimation for the subclade?

lgmayka
04-26-2016, 10:05 AM
New YFull 4.4 available showing subclade C-P39. How do I read Age Estimation for the subclade?
Take a look at its immediate parent, C-F3918. C-F3918 divided into two subclades, Native American C-P39 and Eurasian C-F1756 (https://yfull.com/tree/C-F3918/), roughly 13,200 years ago.

In order to get a TMRCA of C-P39 itself, YFull would require a second C-P39 example.

In contrast, Q-M930 divided into Native American Q-M3 and European Q-L804 (https://yfull.com/tree/Q-M930/) roughly 15,000 years ago. (I don't know whether Q-L804 has ever been found in Asia.)

apachewolf
05-05-2016, 05:07 AM
Here's a fun question. In my BigY results I show a matching group of 9 people in my C-P39 haplogroup, and I have one non-matching known SNP across the broad with them all and that is CTS9623 in a derived state. What does this mean?

lgmayka
05-05-2016, 09:20 AM
In my BigY results I show a matching group of 9 people in my C-P39 haplogroup, and I have one non-matching known SNP across the broad with them all and that is CTS9623 in a derived state. What does this mean?
According to YFull's search utility (https://yfull.com/search-snp-in-tree/), CTS9623 recurs very, very often on the haplotree, so I wouldn't give it much weight.

Are you saying that 8 or 9 C-P39 men have taken the Big Y test, but have not submitted their BAM files to YFull for professional analysis? You could email them, asking them to do so. They would flesh out the tree considerably.

apachewolf
05-05-2016, 03:39 PM
According to YFull's search utility (https://yfull.com/search-snp-in-tree/), CTS9623 recurs very, very often on the haplotree, so I wouldn't give it much weight.

Are you saying that 8 or 9 C-P39 men have taken the Big Y test, but have not submitted their BAM files to YFull for professional analysis? You could email them, asking them to do so. They would flesh out the tree considerably.

Yes, I was just wondering what it might mean that my Big Y result is positive for CTS9623 and is not shared with the other 9 Big Y matches in the subclade group project. Is it something that comes into play when determining TMRCA was my curiosity.

Stats show there are 12 of us with Big Y test results in our project and it looks like I match 9 of them to some degre. With more participants joining the project, project managers have decided to take a deep dive into family genealogy by getting all 41 participants (mostly related in family groups) upgraded to DNA-111 as a baseline, most of which has been done already. They plan to write a revised and updated report sometime in 2016 on C-P39, analysis will include 111 marker result comparisons, new geo-locations, tribal / family relationships, C P39 SNP findings and new SNPs and Big Y results. Here is the link to blog post on current project details https://dna-explained.com/2016/02/04/further-analysis-of-native-american-haplogroup-c-p39-planned/

lgmayka
05-05-2016, 10:48 PM
Is it something that comes into play when determining TMRCA was my curiosity.
Highly recurrent SNPs are usually ignored for TMRCA purposes, although that's a simplification. (Theoretically, one should weight each SNP inversely to its recurrence rate.)

I suggest you persuade at least one of your Big Y matches to submit his BAM file to YFull. YFull will then be able to estimate a TMRCA for the two of you.

jpb
09-05-2016, 12:56 AM
I have C2e Z1338+ and I am European.

lgmayka
09-05-2016, 03:14 AM
I have C2e Z1338+ and I am European.
Your profile says, more specifically, CT3385+ . (See YFull's C-CTS3385 (https://yfull.com/tree/C-CTS3385/).) Perhaps if you order the Big Y and submit the raw data to YFull, YFull can estimate your TMRCA with the Beijing research sample NA18612.

jpb
09-05-2016, 03:56 AM
I am CTS3385+ for sure! I just was simplifying it. :-) Good idea! Thanks!

lgmayka
09-05-2016, 01:21 PM
I am CTS3385+ for sure!
Which testing company determined this--National Geographic, perhaps? If so, I hope you have transferred your results and DNA samples to FTDNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/landing/nat-geo-transfer.aspx#/verify), so that you can test further.

Once you have an FTDNA account, feel free to join the Polish Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/polish/activity-feed) (since your profile lists some Eastern European ancestry).

jpb
09-05-2016, 02:05 PM
I did not test at National Geographic. I am doing the autosomal Family Finder test and have an FTDNA account. My Y line is Western European. My Eastern European is Pomeranian. I think they were Slavic but had German surnames. I may join the Polish project. Is there a Pomeranian project?

lgmayka
09-06-2016, 01:24 AM
Is there a Pomeranian project?
Here is one (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/pommern/about/background), but I don't see the name or email address of an administrator. :confused: