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Bulat
01-28-2016, 05:39 AM
Hello!

In China has conducted research on paleo-DNA testing and the of Ashina clan (documented-archive descendants of Ashina in China), but the results are not yet open.

As you know, there are many descendants of Ashina tribe in Xinjiang, China. And some Ashina clan took Chinese family name “Shi 史” to assimilate into Han people. We have already sampled these people.

about Ashina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashina

Best regards.

Krefter
01-28-2016, 05:54 AM
By "paleo-DNA" do you mean DNA taken from old bones. If so how old are they and where are they from? Do claimed Ashina descendants in China today have a closer relationship to Siberians or Central Asians(Turkemntan, Kazakhstan, etc) than Han Chinese do.

Táltos
01-28-2016, 06:07 AM
Hello!

In China has conducted research on paleo-DNA testing and the of Ashina clan (documented-archive descendants of Ashina in China), but the results are not yet open.

As you know, there are many descendants of Ashina tribe in Xinjiang, China. And some Ashina clan took Chinese family name “Shi 史” to assimilate into Han people. We have already sampled these people.

about Ashina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashina

Best regards.

Hello,
When can we expect results? Is Y DNA tested?

Bulat
01-28-2016, 06:11 AM
By "paleo-DNA" do you mean DNA taken from old bones. If so how old are they and where are they from? Do claimed Ashina descendants in China today have a closer relationship to Siberians or Central Asians(Turkemntan, Kazakhstan, etc) than Han Chinese do.

Sorry, my english language is very bad.

Yes, Paleo-DNA = Ancient DNA.

In China, there are the graves of the princes Ashina kingdom: Ashina Mishe, Ashina Sunishi, Ashina Buchdzhen and etc.

And in China are documented-archive descendants of Ashina.

The descendants of the clan Ashina in China are the names Xiang, Shi, and Chjun.

1) Family 献 (Xian, Xiang). Distributed in Guangdong, the descendants of Ashina Misha.


2) Family Shi

http://f3.s.qip.ru/ZkNFxrIq.jpg

The old spelling spread throughout China.


3) Family Chjun

http://f3.s.qip.ru/ZkNFxrIr.jpg.

Old writing, common in Shaanxi Province - descendants of prince - Ashina Sunishi.

Bulat
01-28-2016, 06:13 AM
Hello,
Is Y DNA tested?

Yes, Y-DNA.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-28-2016, 06:23 AM
Hello!

In China has conducted research on paleo-DNA testing and the of Ashina clan (documented-archive descendants of Ashina in China), but the results are not yet open.

As you know, there are many descendants of Ashina tribe in Xinjiang, China. And some Ashina clan took Chinese family name “Shi 史” to assimilate into Han people. We have already sampled these people.

about Ashina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashina

Best regards.

Excellent !
Can you give specifics as to which sites, dates , cultures ?
Do you mean GokTurk tombs ?

Bulat
01-28-2016, 06:38 AM
Excellent !
Can you give specifics as to which sites, dates , cultures ?
Do you mean GokTurk tombs ?

In China are the tombs of Ashina Mishe, Ashina Sunishi, Ashina Buchdzhen and their descendants.

The links in Russian and Chinese languages:

Ashina Mishe: https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%98%BF%E5%8F%B2%E9%82%A3%E5%BC%A5%E5%B0%84

Ashina Buchdzhen: https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%98%BF%E5%8F%B2%E9%82%A3%E6%96%9B%E7%91%9F%E7%B D%97

Bulat
01-28-2016, 07:00 AM
Excellent !
Can you give specifics as to which sites, dates , cultures ?

I could not find information on the Internet in English about Ashina Mishe, Ashin Ashina Sunishi and Ashina Buchzhen. But this information is in the books, in libraries.

But in English and German languages, look at the books:

1. Ligeti L. Mots de civilisation de Hoyte Asie en transcription Chinoise// Acta Orientalia Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae. — 1950. — T. 1, fasc. 1. - P. 141-178.

2. Ligeti L. Le tabghaych, un dialecte de la langue Sien—bi // Mongolia Studies. - Budapest, 1970. - P. 265-308.

3. L i u M a u-t s a i. /Besprechung/ // Central Asiatic J. - 1958a. - Vol. 4, N 1. - P. 73-81. - Bespr. von: Takeo Abe. Nishi-Uiguru Kokushi no Kenkyü (Studien Über die Geschichte des West—Unighure—Reichen ).Kyoto, 1955.

4. Liu M a u—t s a i. Die Chinesischen Nachrichten zur Geschichte der Ost— Türken (T'u-kue). - Wiesbaden, 1958b. - (Göttingen Asiatische Forschungen; Bd 10).

5. L i u M a u—t s a i. Kutscha und seinen Bezihungen zu China vom 2. Jh.v. bis zum 6. n. Chr. — Wiesbaden, 1969. — (Asiatische Forschungen; Bd 27).

6. Mackerras C. The Uighur Empire (744—840). According to the T'ang Dynastic Histories. — Canberra, 1968. — (Centre of Oriental Studies. The Australian National University Occasional Paper; N 8).

7. Mackerras C. Sino—Uighur Diplomatic and Trade Contacts (744—840)/; Central Asiatic J. - 1969. - Vol. 13, N 1. - P. 215-240.

8. Mackerras C. The Uighur Empire. According to T'ang Dynastic Histories. A. Study in Sino—Uighur Relations 744—840. — Canberra, 1972. - (Asian Publications Series, N 2). M

J1 DYS388=13
01-28-2016, 09:31 AM
The Chinese Wikipedia sites say these two individuals were from the Western Tujue, equated by the Chinese characters to Göktürks here ---
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göktürks

yakuzi
01-30-2016, 05:35 PM
Hello!

In China has conducted research on paleo-DNA testing and the of Ashina clan (documented-archive descendants of Ashina in China), but the results are not yet open.

As you know, there are many descendants of Ashina tribe in Xinjiang, China. And some Ashina clan took Chinese family name “Shi 史” to assimilate into Han people. We have already sampled these people.

about Ashina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashina

Best regards.

Hi there, thanks for the information. Do you know which university, and which academicians are conducting this research? What is the title of their study, which department?

And as you probably know previously there was an ancient dna study of Saltovo Majaki Khazar Turks. Link (https://www.academia.edu/15713987/%D0%90%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%B5%D 0%B2_%D0%93.%D0%95._%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%9B._%D0 %92%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8C_%D0%A8._%D0%92%D1%8D%D0%B9_% D0%9B._%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE% D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%9C.%D0%92. _%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%94 .%D0%A1._%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B 2%D0%B0_%D0%98.%D0%9A._%D0%9B%D0%B8_%D0%A5._%D0%A2 %D1%83%D0%BD_%D0%A1._%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%8 0%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%84 %D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8B_%D0%B2_ %D0%B1%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B5_% D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%A2%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D 1%81%D1%8B_%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0 %BE%D0%B2_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%92%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0 %BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B 9_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%83%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%B A%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%84%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%86% D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%95%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D 0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%83%D1% 87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B 4%D1%8B_%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE %D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D0%B0 %D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%BC%D0%B0_%D1%81% D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0 %BE%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0% BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B8_._%D0%9C._%D0%98%D0%90_%D0%A0 %D0%90%D0%9D._2015)

Do you know of other recent ancient dna studies/researches regarding the Scythians, Huns, Gok Turks, Khazars, Proto Bulgarians, Uzes?

zky
02-03-2016, 08:54 PM
Yes, Y-DNA.

Can you say which Y-DNA groups were found in these tombs? My hypothesis is that Q-P36 will be represented in findings.

Bulat
03-15-2016, 05:58 PM
So, tomorrow, March 17, 2016 (the Shanghai time) will be published our unofficial note about subclade Ashina.

We will try to make this an informal review with the scietists from China.

Now, we Know not only haplogroup Ashin, but their subclade.

Also known haplogroup of Clan Ashide.

To Wait, a one day (Shanghai time).

Looking ahead - I note, of all the historians of the past most true origin of Ashina wrote Sergei G. Kjyashtorny. See: Kjyashtorny S.G. The Royal Clan of the Turks and the Problem of its Designation//Post-Soviet Central Asia. Edited by Touraj Atabaki and John O’Kane. Tauris Academic Studies. London*New York in association with IIAS. The international Institute for Asian Studies. Leiden-Amsterdam, P.366-369.

About Kjyashtorny S.G (in russian Wiki)
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BB%D1%8F%D1%88%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BD%D 1%8B%D0%B9,_%D0%A1%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%B9_% D0%93%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0 %B2%D0%B8%D1%87

Bulat
03-16-2016, 10:48 AM
THE HAPLOGROUPS OF THE REPRESENTATIVES FROM ANCIENT TURKIC CLANS — ASHINA AND ASHIDE

S.-Q. Wen, B.A. Muratov, R.R. Suyunov

In 2015-2016 yy. in Fudan University (Shanghai), headed by ethnogenomist Shao-Qing Wen (文少卿)[1] in China were tested to determine the Y-DNA haplogroup the representatives from aristocratic Turkic clans Ashina[2] (creators and managers Turkic Khanate in the VI-VII centuries) and Ashide[3].

Subclade of clan Ashina: R1a-Z93, Z94+, Z2123-, Y2632-. Recommended to request SNPs — Z2124, Z2122.

Subclade of clan Ashide: Q1a-L53.

http://f6.s.qip.ru/FspxfBEq.png

See here:
https://www.academia.edu/23316012/Wen_S.-Q._Muratov_B.A._Suyunov_R.R._The_haplogroups_of_th e_representatives_from_ancient_Turkic_clans_-_Ashina_and_Ashide_BEHPS_ISSN_2410-1788_Volume_3_2_1_2_March_2016_P.154-157

Táltos
03-16-2016, 01:48 PM
Thanks for the information. But just so I understand, because I could take representatives either way. Are these the haplogroups of the descendants of the clan Ashina in China with the names Xiang, Shi, and Chjun?

Or are they from graves in China that are of the princes Ashina kingdom: Ashina Mishe, Ashina Sunishi, Ashina Buchdzhen that you had indicated in post #4?

parasar
03-16-2016, 02:48 PM
"Ashina Clan (literal translation —
Celestial [4]) are descendants Bumyn Qaghan [5] and Istemi Qaghan [6] in the ruling house of the Turkic khanate ...

Subclade of clan Ashina: R1a-Z93, Z94+, Z2123-, Y2632-. Recommended to request SNPs -
Z2124, Z2122.

If the assumption of a "Pashtun cluster" will be right, then the representatives of the Ashina clan should be further tested for SNP YP413. If Ashina will subclade Z2122, again will become a topical issue of the relationship Ashina with the Khazars. Not excluded and any other results of subclades of representatives from Ashina clan -
L657, Z94*Parent and others."

So am I reading correctly that SNPs were not tested? Or was Z93 and Z94 confirmed? Or were only STRs tested and SNPs predicted?
Thanks.

Bulat
03-16-2016, 03:57 PM
So am I reading correctly that SNPs were not tested? Or was Z93 and Z94 confirmed? Or were only STRs tested and SNPs predicted?
Thanks.
Tested now only Z93, Z94, Z2123, Y2632.

Results: Z93+, Z94+, Z2123-, Y2632-

Z2124, Z2122 - not tested.

Best regards

Bulat
03-16-2016, 04:13 PM
Or are they from graves in China that are of the princes Ashina kingdom: Ashina Mishe, Ashina Sunishi, Ashina Buchdzhen that you had indicated in post #4?
Serious studies on the Ashina and Ashide clans only started.

These researches consist of two parts.

1 part - paleo-DNA of Ashina and Ashide clans,
2 part - testing of descendants from Ashina and Ashide clans with really documental-archive materials of these clans.

In our article is written only what I can tell you now, namely: # number of kits, names of scientists of this theme , the haplotypes of kits and SNPs.
Everything else will be published in the official bulletin of Fudan University.
Sincerely.

Baws
03-16-2016, 07:37 PM
R1a and Q1a? So those could be the true Turkic markers? The Turks were descended from ANE tribes?

Krefter
03-16-2016, 07:43 PM
R1a and Q1a? So those could be the true Turkic markers? The Turks were descended from ANE tribes?

Partly descended of ANE.

Baws
03-16-2016, 08:11 PM
Partly descended of ANE.

Partly, from paternal side, just like Proto-Indo Europeans.

Lathdrinor
03-18-2016, 01:19 AM
R1a and Q1a? So those could be the true Turkic markers? The Turks were descended from ANE tribes?

The Turks were a diverse confederation of steppe nomads. The presence of both R1a and Q1a within its ruling clans already shows this, as R1a and Q1a have different geographic distributions.

Nonetheless the study is useful for helping with certain historical problems such as whether the Ashina clan was, in fact, a Saka clan. Of course the haplogroup alone can't answer this question. But it could serve as supporting evidence though we'd need to know more about the Saka and their neighbors' haplogroups.

btmacdowell
07-12-2017, 11:27 PM
Bulat,

Looking back at this, thanks for your work on this topic. Any new developments since last post? Thanks,

parasar
11-30-2020, 10:06 PM
THE HAPLOGROUPS OF THE REPRESENTATIVES FROM ANCIENT TURKIC CLANS — ASHINA AND ASHIDE

S.-Q. Wen, B.A. Muratov, R.R. Suyunov

In 2015-2016 yy. in Fudan University (Shanghai), headed by ethnogenomist Shao-Qing Wen (文少卿)[1] in China were tested to determine the Y-DNA haplogroup the representatives from aristocratic Turkic clans Ashina[2] (creators and managers Turkic Khanate in the VI-VII centuries) and Ashide[3].

Subclade of clan Ashina: R1a-Z93, Z94+, Z2123-, Y2632-. Recommended to request SNPs — Z2124, Z2122.

Subclade of clan Ashide: Q1a-L53.

http://f6.s.qip.ru/FspxfBEq.png

See here:
https://www.academia.edu/23316012/Wen_S.-Q._Muratov_B.A._Suyunov_R.R._The_haplogroups_of_th e_representatives_from_ancient_Turkic_clans_-_Ashina_and_Ashide_BEHPS_ISSN_2410-1788_Volume_3_2_1_2_March_2016_P.154-157

Any further SNP tests on the Ashina? L657, Z2124?
From the STRs it looks to me that the Amudzha - R1a-Z93: 13 25 15 11 11 14 12 12 10 13 11 31 16 9 9 11 11 25 14 20 34 12 15 16 16 11 12 19 23 15 15 18 19 35 39 14 11 - may be L657+.
Are the Amudzha Ashina? Kayi? Ottoman?

What is the etymology of Kayi? Kavi? Eg. Kavi Vishtasp, Kai Khusrow?

btmacdowell
12-01-2020, 01:03 AM
Yes, had been wondering if relatively new R-F1019* on YFull (ERS1066775) was maybe connected... Just a notion I had.

Afshar
12-01-2020, 05:46 PM
Any further SNP tests on the Ashina? L657, Z2124?
From the STRs it looks to me that the Amudzha - R1a-Z93: 13 25 15 11 11 14 12 12 10 13 11 31 16 9 9 11 11 25 14 20 34 12 15 16 16 11 12 19 23 15 15 18 19 35 39 14 11 - may be L657+.
Are the Amudzha Ashina? Kayi? Ottoman?

What is the etymology of Kayi? Kavi? Eg. Kavi Vishtasp, Kai Khusrow?

Amudzha comes from the word amca, which means paternal uncle, so they are from the Kayi bloodline.