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Grossvater
02-05-2013, 03:03 PM
Having just gotten my wife's DNA results back, we have discovered that she is at least 22.5% East Asian/Native American.

Most of this is straight up Native American which is no surprise but the small amount of East Asian has me puzzled. Is this ACTUAL recent East Asian ancestry or is this just genetic overlap since the ancestors of the Native Americans originally came from Asia?

The area where my wife's ancestors came from had historical Lipan Apache presence. Could these East Asian references come from Lipan Apache Athabaskans some of whose ancestors came to America from Asia much later than the ancestors of most Native Americans?

Am inferring what the evidence doesn't imply?

AJL
02-05-2013, 08:21 PM
I wish I knew. It would help if we understood whether Ancestry Painting or Ancestry Finder was the main criterion for that kind of matching (my guess is it's a proprietary mix, but we're not looking for exact proportions, just a ballpark estimate).

thetick
02-06-2013, 03:00 AM
There are few DNA samples of the many different NA groups. Many NAs don't test and there are few left without some recent European ancestry. Because of these reasons the available NA samples are not really conclusive of all the NA ancestry. I suspect many true NA segments are incorrectly labeled as East Asian which is the closest group genetically.

If you have colonial ancestry and no known East Asian then I think it's safe to assume the East Asian is mostly indicating Native American. Always keep in mind these tools match the closest genetically and may not necessary indicate true ethnic percentages.

For a simple example if only Russian and Spanish samples are used a German would most likely test 50% Spanish and 50% Russian without having any of that ancestry.

geebee
02-06-2013, 07:03 PM
I might also note that my brother, sister, and I all show a bit more or a bit less than 2% "East Asian and Native American" in 23andMe's Ancestry Composition. Nearly all is identified as Native American, but my sister has two very small "East Asian" segments. One is isolated, but the other is precisely in the middle of an otherwise-Native American segment.

My guess would be that all of it is actually Native American, but a tiny part simply fits East Asian a little better, at least as far as their reference samples are concerned. In the Ancestry Painting days, it was possible to see results for an example Native American individual. It would be nice if this were still true, because that would show whether even someone identified as fully Native American would show "East Asian" segments. I suspect he or she would, but of course I can't prove that.

thetick
02-07-2013, 12:40 AM
I've seen enough 23andme AC results from Latinos with no known East Asian ancestry. It pretty much proves the mix of East Asian / NA (especially small EA segments in larger NA segments) is really just NA. I believe it's just a case of not enough NA sample populations.

There is a good thread at 23andme and currently near the bottom is a post from a user about 23andme support that acknowleadges the problem.
See https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/16107/#most_recent

geebee
02-07-2013, 04:17 AM
I've seen enough 23andme AC results from Latinos with no known East Asian ancestry. It pretty much proves the mix of East Asian / NA (especially small EA segments in larger NA segments) is really just NA. I believe it's just a case of not enough NA sample populations.

There is a good thread at 23andme and currently near the bottom is a post from a user about 23andme support that acknowleadges the problem.
See https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/16107/#most_recent

It's still a great improvement over both Ancestry Painting and the Native American Ancestry Finder lab. As of the last "tweaking" 23andMe did before the lab became moot, only one of the three siblings got "It is likely" as the answer to the question about Native American ancestry. My sister and I both got an "It is possible". I don't know if in my sister's case it might be for the same reason she shows a speck of "East Asian" in Ancestry Composition (but only with the speculative estimate)? For the two of us there was a lengthy explanation about "other possibilities", which presumably could included that the "Asian" ancestry was really "Asian". Certainly they're using better reference populations now than they were!

The funny thing is, when the lab first came out, my daughter got an "It is likely", at the same time I was getting an "It is possible". I guess from my SNPs to hers the algorithm became less confused. After the above-mentioned "tweaking", I think her percentage dropped to just below 1% in Ancestry Painting. As far as I could tell, no one with less than 1% "Asian" was getting an "It is likely" in the NAAF lab. I don't remember exactly how they phrased it, but her answer went all the way down to a "probably not". But that would just be for "recent" Native American ancestry.

EDIT: Not directly germaine to the topic, but in my signature I refer to my Native American ancestor as "Choctaw", and this has apparently been the "conventional thinking" in the extended family for many years. But as far as I can tell, there may be no actual record identifies her as anything other than simply "an Indian". There is also a name, "Emashappa". But again, I'm not sure where that actually comes from. The claim has been around for a while, but I can't find an actual record that supports it.

One cousin, who has done more study of the issue than I have, believes she may actually have been Chitimacha, but I'm not sure what actual evidence he has either. Both "Choctaw" and "Chitimacha" may be based primarily on location, and both were in contact with the French settlers near the Gulf Coast.

EDIT: Not that it means anything, but just for grins I uploaded photos to photobucket.com of my brother and the chairman of the Chitimacha tribe, John Paul Darden (who obviously seems to have some European ancestry).

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb429/gjsb56/mybrotherandthechairman_zpsc6b29824.jpg

thetick
02-07-2013, 05:27 AM
It's still a great improvement over both Ancestry Painting and the Native American Ancestry Finder lab. As of the last "tweaking" 23andMe did before the lab became moot, only one of the three siblings got "It is likely" as the answer to the question about Native American ancestry. [/IMG]

Until the recently released AC, 23andme admixture very poor. AC is pretty good for European ancestry , but no so great for African or Asian due to few data sample from those groups. The old 23andme NA ancestry result was really only slightly better then a guess which is why it no longer exists. It relied on a few SNPs and your YDNA/MTDNA results. This explains why your daughter could have likely and you would only have possible.

Just curious what you and your daughter's MtDNA are? There are only a few haplogroups that are documented as NA, but keep in mind MtDNA only is the mother's mother line going back.

geebee
02-07-2013, 05:50 AM
Until the recently released AC, 23andme admixture very poor. AC is pretty good for European ancestry , but no so great for African or Asian due to few data sample from those groups. The old 23andme NA ancestry result was really only slightly better then a guess which is why it no longer exists. It relied on a few SNPs and your YDNA/MTDNA results. This explains why your daughter could have likely and you would only have possible.

Just curious what you and your daughter's MtDNA are? There are only a few haplogroups that are documented as NA, but keep in mind MtDNA only is the mother's mother line going back.

Neither of us has a Native American haplogroup. My daughter's is J1c3c at 23andMe, and is traceable back as far as an ancestor who immigrated from Bavaria in the late 1860s. In my case, while I have (at least) two paths leading back to my Native American ancestor, each has a single intervening male, so neither is in my mtDNA line. My haplogroup is H1 at 23andMe and H1bg at FTDNA (where I had the FGS). It traces back to an ancestor born ca. 1727 near the Gulf coast of Mississippi. Based mainly on her surname -- Berda dit Picard -- she would seem to have had French ancestry.

The only other H1bg I'm aware of traces his mtDNA line back to Romania, but only as early as about 1910 or so.

EDIT: My sister actually did get an "It is likely" in NAAF for a while. Then they did that tweaking I mentioned and it became only "possible", while my daughter's went from "likely" to "probably not". Many of my siblings' and my segments are actually almost identical, but there was evidently enough difference overall to yield a different result.

geebee
02-07-2013, 06:06 AM
I do have a few cousins who should have our Native American ancestor's mtDNA, if only I could track them down. She actually left a lot of descendants in southern Mississippi and Louisiana.

EDIT: I checked Relative Finder, and I also seem to have some folks in A2, B2, and C1. Nobody in D1 or X, as far as been able to tell. These are on my "not paternal" side, since there's no actual test data for my mother. And, of course, there's no telling if any of these other folks' mtDNA lines might intersect with any of my ancestors' mtDNA lines.

But when I say my NA ancestor left a lot of descendants, we're talking about families routinely numbering ten or more. There was also quite a bit of cousin marriage, usually most distant than first, but not always. So we may have slightly more shared DNA for any given degree of cousinship. But it also means it could be hard to figure out just who the MRCA might really be in a particular instance, since there could be multiple possibilities.

amerinese
02-12-2013, 11:19 PM
23andMe Ancestry Composition was clever enough to find the one 0.3% segment of Native American ancestry I have, and share with at least two other Americans of colonial ancestry, in the midst of all the East Asian I have. It is the same segment McDonald found independently, and considering I share it with at least two pfedominantly European-Americans, I have good confidence in it being real.

As far as the other issue, what I have read is that the initial run of Ancestry Composition did not include northern or arctic reference samples, which may leave some North American ancestry uncategorized or miscategorized as East Asian. East Asian is a very broad category in the current AC, also having swallowed up the approximate 1% of Australasian ancestry I carry in some other calculators, rather than allow it to be categorized as Oceanian.

I would recommend you run the DIY Dodecad Globe13 on your wife, which I noticed did a reasonably good job of differentiating between Native American and Northeast Asian, reviewing the results for myself and another individual with Taino ancestry. If you can run that calculator, or have someone run it for you, please post her results.

geebee
02-13-2013, 03:14 AM
"I would recommend you run the DIY Dodecad Globe13 on your wife, which I noticed did a reasonably good job of differentiating between Native American and Northeast Asian, reviewing the results for myself and another individual with Taino ancestry. If you can run that calculator, or have someone run it for you, please post her results."

If this was meant for me, neither my wife nor my father has any Native American in Ancestry Composition. Both of them show as 100% European. However, there is an unverified tradition of Native American ancestry in my father's family. Below are the results for all of us. ["Bern" is my dad; "Curt" is my brother; "Luci" is my sister; "Gary" is me; "Kathryn" is my daughter; and "Diane" is her mother]

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb429/gjsb56/DIYDodecad_Globe13_zps595778fd.jpg

I wonder if most Europeans (or European Americans) show some Amerindian in this calculator? Certainly both my wife and father do, despite not showing any Native American in Ancestry Composition or most other biogeographical analyses. I'm not sure whether it means anything, but I also notice that in addition to having half or less the percentage of Amerindian that my siblings and I show (as well as my daughter), they have 0 Siberian. In addition, my daughter's Siberian percentage is greater than mine, and since her mother's is 0 that should not be possible. Clearly, something about the combination of her ancestries must be skewing the results.

Grossvater
02-13-2013, 04:07 AM
Amerinese...you were referring to my wife, right? Tell me how to run her results through that calculator. I'm not sure where to start.

Geebee...several years ago I read about a man whose ancestors came from the old Bavarian Palatinate and the Hunsruck of Western Germany who showed surprising East Asian ancestry. It was thought at the time that perhaps this was genetic trace evidence of Attila's Huns who may or may not have been the historic Xiongnu found in Chinese records who originated in Mongolia. Has anyone heard whether this has been clarified or not?

geebee
02-13-2013, 05:20 AM
Grossvater ... Yes, I think the question from Amerinese was probably addressed to you. I hadn't noticed you're earlier post and had thought the question might have been to me, but I was a bit confused. Oh, well.

I'd heard something like that result you mentioned, but as far as I know people with western or southwestern German ancestry don't typically have high East Asian. However, when I ran the calculator my father's East Asian was 0.71%. He also had 0.86% Amerindian. As I mentioned, his family does have a tradition of Native American ancestry, but Ancestry Painting and Ancestry Composition both show him as "100% European".

Now, while pictures perhaps don't lie, they can certainly be misleading. But just for fun, here are pictures of both my parents (taken long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away it seems):

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb429/gjsb56/Dad2_zps8725670b.jpghttp://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb429/gjsb56/Mom_zpsecb08e2f.jpg

Funny thing is, based on identified ancestry, my father's about half German/half Scots-Irish. My mother's German close to half German and one-fourth Spanish, with even smaller amounts of Dutch, Swiss, French, Irish, and Native American. Before I ever did any DNA testing -- which was also before I found my mother's Native American ancestry -- if one of my parents had NA ancestry, I'd have expected it to be my father. When my great grandfather was alive -- who like my father should have been basically German/Scots-Irish -- people used to ask whether one of his parents was an Indian.

EDIT: For even more grins, here's me from the same sitting --

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb429/gjsb56/Gary_zpsb5473bd8.jpg

Grossvater
02-13-2013, 02:52 PM
But just for fun, here are pictures of both my parents (taken long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away it seems):



Der Grossvater was born in that galaxy and remembers it pretty well! Say, I'm curious...how did your Catalan ancestry show up on the 23andMe test? Was it Iberian or just generic Southern European? Was it something else?

amerinese
02-14-2013, 05:08 PM
Sorry for the confusion. My comments were directed at Grossvater in regards to his wife's analysis, Native vs. East Asian, described in the OP.

There are instructions on the Dodecad blog website, for how to install and run DIY Dodecad for various calculators, including the Globe series which are not available on Gedmatch. It requires the download of a tool / environment called R. It's a stumbling block for some people, but many of us have it installed and running. If you wouldn't like to tackle it, an alternative is to send your wife's raw data to a trustworthy person who has it running. I could do it for you, if you like. Send me a PM if you're interested.

geebee
02-14-2013, 08:35 PM
Sorry for the confusion. My comments were directed at Grossvater in regards to his wife's analysis, Native vs. East Asian, described in the OP.

No problem. Actually, your comments weren't really that confusing -- once I noticed Grossvater's earlier post. I just hadn't yet seen in when I first responded to your post. You weren't confusing; I think I just managed to confuse myself. Happens sometimes.

"You know you're thinking really deep thoughts when even you can't understand them." :P

Deborah Jean Ly
09-29-2017, 10:27 PM
Hello. I did a Ancestry test awhile back cause I have been told all my life that we had Native blood. Just could not prove it. I just wanted to check it out. And if i am great, if not that's ok. So under European I was like 87% ((I figured that)) African 0%, Ingenious 0%, East Asian 13%. Which I thought was odd. Cause no one on my Mother's or Father's side are Asian. The only Asian is my husband. And he is Chinese. Maybe sound can can help explain the test to me. thank you. Have a great day.

jortita
09-30-2017, 08:03 AM
Hello. I did a Ancestry test awhile back cause I have been told all my life that we had Native blood. Just could not prove it. I just wanted to check it out. And if i am great, if not that's ok. So under European I was like 87% ((I figured that)) African 0%, Ingenious 0%, East Asian 13%. Which I thought was odd. Cause no one on my Mother's or Father's side are Asian. The only Asian is my husband. And he is Chinese. Maybe sound can can help explain the test to me. thank you. Have a great day.

Some ancestry tests club native american with east asian. Please run your data through one of the calculators available on Gedmatch, MDLP World 22 which has detailed native american ancestry breakdown into North Amerind, Mesoamerican and South Amerind.