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View Full Version : Rare Y17491 subclade of Z282, found from Poland to Lebanon to Italy



lgmayka
01-31-2016, 02:18 AM
R-Z282 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-Z282/) has three major subclades: Z280, PF6155>M458, and Y2395>Z284. But it also has a fourth, much rarer subclade: R-Y17491 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/).

Kits 132838 of Poland and 187138 of Ukraine belong to R-Y17491. But according to the Y-SNPs page of the R1a Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ysnp), these project members are also Y17491+ .
182305 of Turkey
M9785 of Lebanon
178708 of Italy
Ancestral countries are taken from the Y-STRs page of that same project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=yresults).

khanabadoshi
01-31-2016, 02:32 AM
I didn't even realize they had updated my haplogroup. When did this happen?

R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858? I suppose I'm all by my lonesome in the this subclade?

lgmayka
01-31-2016, 02:53 AM
R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858? I suppose I'm all by my lonesome in the this subclade?
No, YFull would not have defined a new subclade unless someone else had matched you. That person has apparently not been posted to YFull's haplotree (yet?).

If you want to know who matches you, go to the Big Y Matches page of your FTDNA account. In the dropdown list for "Filter matches by subclade", choose "R-Z282 YOU". In the resulting list of names, you should be able to guess your new, closer match.

khanabadoshi
01-31-2016, 03:18 AM
No, YFull would not have defined a new subclade unless someone else had matched you. That person has apparently not been posted to YFull's haplotree (yet?).

If you want to know who matches you, go to the Big Y Matches page of your FTDNA account. In the dropdown list for "Filter matches by subclade", choose "R-Z282 YOU". In the resulting list of names, you should be able to guess your new, closer match.

This is what I see, 3 people -- seem like Polish surnames?

*removed*

lgmayka
01-31-2016, 03:33 AM
This is what I see, 3 people -- seem like Polish surnames?
Please don't post the names of your personal matches--they might consider it an invasion of privacy.

The "match" who actually mismatches you on PF6161 and PF7525 is at a different tree level, so don't count him as a true match.

You could also take a look at the classifications of the R1a Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=yresults).

Michał
02-01-2016, 07:48 PM
I didn't even realize they had updated my haplogroup. When did this happen?

R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858? I suppose I'm all by my lonesome in the this subclade?
Kit 182305 from Turkey/Armenia is the other member of the so-called "West Asian" cluster (previously Y17491-A) who has been recently tested with Big Y and turned out to share five SNPs under Y17491 with you (they were named YP4858-62). Based on STRs, you are predicted to share some more SNPs (under YP4858) with the members of an Arab subcluster that is currently named YP4858-A1A in our R1a project.

alhan
10-04-2017, 12:20 PM
And here I am another member from Turkey under YP4858, and under FGC64132
M420>M459>M198>M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>FGC64133>FGC64132**

Smilelover
10-12-2017, 04:53 AM
There is also 2 sample one from Qatar and the other from bahrain under



M173/M420/M459/M198/M417/Z283/Z282/Y17491/ YP4858/YP5820/BY27345

alhan
10-24-2017, 08:04 AM
I have waited so long to have the results for BigY, luckily right after having the results FTDNA decided to restructure.
Yes I do have the results but I cannot access my BigY page I am stuck with the sequence. I guess I do not have the patience genes in my DNA.

I was hoping to submit my BAM file to YFull. But again this is on hold, because FTDNA is still not providing it after a month. I guess it's because my BAMfile will be in a new format. Then possibly I will have to face problem with YFull because the file is going to be new format??
Anyway, I am not writing to discuss my data waiting journey.

I am here to tell about my understanding of my subclade and brainstorm for its belongings and story.
I will be glad to hear your thoughts on this, now I am very familiar with the subject but I might still be using the terminology wrongly please bear with me.

Here is my sequence
M420>M459>M198>M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>FGC64133>FGC64132*

I want to talk more on Y17491 ( https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/ ).

I am sure there are similar cases under different branches;
under R-17491 there are branches with somehow isolated geographies.

As of October of 2017 R-17491 has two clades downstream.

R-YP4858 and R-YP5872.

R-YP5872 clearly a European clade with members from Germany, Sweden and from some other East European countries. Just like what you would expect from R1a.

How about R-YP4858. Looking at the R1a Project page and the YFull, there are some indications.

It is clear that it mostly belongs to Middle East. However there are unclustured members of Italy and Ukraine.
(I know R1a administrators are following this site, I am trying not to violate the privacy of the group or the members -with what I share-, please warn me if I do, I will correct it promptly)

How about these member from Italy and Ukraine. If they were not present in the list under YP4858, I would easily call YP4858 a MiddleEastern SubClade/Cluster. I guess it's hard to go beyond speculation for these members.

There are few distinct geographies present themselves under YP4858,

My country Turkey has several members under YP4858. Two of the members are with Armenian etnicity. Several members including "unknown origin" are from Dersim area of Turkey. It's yet unknown if they have any Armenian background. The members I talked about concentrated under the subclades of YP5820 and BY27345.

I am from Turkey but I do not belong to this group as I am "presumed negative" for YP5820.

Instead I am more related to the Lebanon/Syrian group of people (Levantine Cluster).
Yet I am a bit different looking at even my modest 12 markers (Thanks Michal Milewski for the insight on this issue).

Another group is concentrated more on Kuwait and United Arab Emirates.
As they do not have any BigY results this question remains unanswered. Thanks to Smileover I've learned that there are members from Qatar and Bahrain under BY27345. I am speculating that the members from Kuwait will probably go under BY27345

And the last geography belongs to Pakistan where our own Khanabadoshi belongs.

I wonder when these YP4858 and YP5872 subclades parted their ways from each other.
And if YP4858 (or maybe Y17491 itself) has a similar pathway like Z93 from Asia, considering our member from Pakistan???

To me it's very interesting having all these Y17491 members between Eastern Europe/Scantinavia/Baltics and Middle East without anyone from Caucasia or Balkans to tie them to each other?

Is this a common thing?
By this I mean that having nothing of Y17491 in between East Europe and Turkey is normal?

With the existing data it seems like, just one guy from East Europe decided to go southeast till he reached Turkey.

I know when there are more samples the story will be clearer. But with I have it is quite intriguing.

I'd appreciate any comment from all those interested.

khanabadoshi
10-24-2017, 08:20 AM
I have waited so long to have the results for BigY, luckily right after having the results FTDNA decided to restructure.
Yes I do have the results but I cannot access my BigY page I am stuck with the sequence. I guess I do not have the patience genes in my DNA.

I was hoping to submit my BAM file to YFull. But again this is on hold, because FTDNA is still not providing it after a month. I guess it's because my BAMfile will be in a new format. Then possibly I will have to face problem with YFull because the file is going to be new format??
Anyway, I am not writing to discuss my data waiting journey.

I am here to tell about my understanding of my subclade and brainstorm for its belongings and story.
I will be glad to hear your thoughts on this, now I am very familiar with the subject but I might still be using the terminology wrongly please bear with me.

Here is my sequence
M420>M459>M198>M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>FGC64133>FGC64132*

I want to talk more on Y17491 ( https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/ ).

I am sure there are similar cases under different branches;
under R-17491 there are branches with somehow isolated geographies.

As of October of 2017 R-17491 has two clades downstream.

R-YP4858 and R-YP5872.

R-YP5872 clearly a European clade with members from Germany, Sweden and from some other East European countries. Just like what you would expect from R1a.

How about R-YP4858. Looking at the R1a Project page and the YFull, there are some indications.

It is clear that it mostly belongs to Middle East. However there are unclustured members of Italy and Ukraine.
(I know R1a administrators are following this site, I am trying not to violate the privacy of the group or the members -with what I share-, please warn me if I do, I will correct it promptly)

How about these member from Italy and Ukraine. If they were not present in the list under YP4858, I would easily call YP4858 a MiddleEastern SubClade/Cluster. I guess it's hard to go beyond speculation for these members.

There are few distinct geographies present themselves under YP4858,

My country Turkey has several members under YP4858. Two of the members are with Armenian etnicity. Several members including "unknown origin" are from Dersim area of Turkey. It's yet unknown if they have any Armenian background. The members I talked about concentrated under the subclades of YP5820 and BY27345.

I am from Turkey but I do not belong to this group as I am "presumed negative" for YP5820.

Instead I am more related to the Lebanon/Syrian group of people (Levantine Cluster).
Yet I am a bit different looking at even my modest 12 markers (Thanks Michal Milewski for the insight on this issue).

Another group is concentrated more on Kuwait and United Arab Emirates.
As they do not have any BigY results this question remains unanswered. Thanks to Smileover I've learned that there are members from Qatar and Bahrain under BY27345. I am speculating that the members from Kuwait will probably go under BY27345

And the last geography belongs to Pakistan where our own Khanabadoshi belongs.

I wonder when these YP4858 and YP5872 subclades parted their ways from each other.
And if YP4858 (or maybe Y17491 itself) has a similar pathway like Z93 from Asia, considering our member from Pakistan???

To me it's very interesting having all these Y17491 members between Eastern Europe/Scantinavia/Baltics and Middle East without anyone from Caucasia or Balkans to tie them to each other?

Is this a common thing?
By this I mean that having nothing of Y17491 in between East Europe and Turkey is normal?

With the existing data it seems like, just one guy from East Europe decided to go southeast till he reached Turkey.

I know when there are more samples the story will be clearer. But with I have it is quite intriguing.

I'd appreciate any comment from all those interested.


At this point, you should know my paternal line is evidently Baloch and among the Baloch, my tribe is of uncertain lineage (generally regarded as not "pure" Baloch). The oral history of the Baloch is of west to east from the Caspian region, along the way they captured/incorporated other peoples into their tribal system. In which case, my y-DNA fits somewhat nicely. Except for the problem that no one else in Pakistan or Iran or India seems to have the same y-DNA, and it isn't entirely certain if/when a Baloch migration occurred. So currently the thought is that my family is a later migrant from West Asia to South Asia, it seems to be the only way to reconcile the haplogroup. I believe most people think this because my results have been public for a while now, and every study still mentions that all R1a1a in South Asia is Z93+.

Alternatively we could be totally local to the Indus (my family lives off the bank of the Indus River) and considering my father is yDNA: R-Z282+ > RY17491 / mtDNA: U7a -- people may use this as some evidence for the Out-of-India theory. I don't think this is true at all, because then there would be a lot more Z282+ results in my neck of the woods.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's a big mystery for me. Trying to figure out Y17491 will help me figure out history of my tribe. So far my closest match is a Druze from As-Suwayda, Syria. I don't know what conclusions to draw from this.

Except... there is a theory that the Kurds and Baloch were once one people during the Median era. They split and one group went east and one went west. Kurdish and Balochi are both NW Iranian languages so there could be merit to this. Now, futher extrapolating that the other members of this subclade are Turkish and Druze (and some Druze are actually Kurds who converted and it's possible that the Turks under this clade are also of Kurdish ancestry) ... then perhaps we have an explanation for why the Syrian, the Turk, and the Pakistani are all in the same subclade. I'm inclined to lean towards this scenario. I feel like there is a Kurdish connection.


Or... extrapolate this further, maybe those Kurds and Druze have a Turkish-Mongol origin...because everyone in the paternal side of my family have Hazara and Turks high up in their match lists -- the Uzbek maternal side of my family doesn't! So maybe we have the story of a man who went from Eastern Europe to Central Asia (Western to Eastern Steppe), but his brothers went further into Ukraine (explains the European side of the clade). The brother in Central Asia had descendants that went to Turkey with the Seljuks and from there some descendants among the Kurds went south to Syria to become Druze. Others became settled among the Kurds or Turks, while others went east to the Caspian. The one in the Caspian region, migrates with the Baloch to the east... and that Baloch descendant migrates east again to the Indus and voila ... Khanabadoshi!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, I'm pretty sure the Dersim results are Kurdish:


R1a-L62>M417>Z282>YP4858 - DÍrsim, Kurmanji FTDNA: E18606
R1a-L62>M417>Z282>YP4858 - DÍrsim, Kurmanji FTDNA: E21646
R1a-L62>M417>Z282>YP4858 - DÍrsim, Kurmanji FTDNA: E22087
R1a-L62>M417>Z282>YP4858
- Konya, Kurmanji FTDNA: 214352

R1a-L62>M417>Z282>YP4858 -

Kurdistan, Ozbas-Gerceker et al., 2013

alhan
10-24-2017, 01:12 PM
Except for the problem that no one else in Pakistan or Iran or India seems to have the same y-DNA, and it isn't entirely certain if/when a Baloch migration occurred. So currently the thought is that my family is a later migrant from West Asia to South Asia, it seems to be the only way to reconcile the haplogroup. I believe most people think this because my results have been public for a while now, and every study still mentions that all R1a1a in South Asia is Z93+.

Your case is lot harder than mine. In my case I have a problem of connecting dots and complete the picture; in your case you are just one lonely dot:P
It's hard to understand whether you are the head of a tiger or the tail.

Anyway, it's good to have you under same umbrella. I feel like you already discovered some of the streets of an unknown town, so we don't have to do it anymore. But that does not change the fact that we are lost in an unknown city, unknown street.

By the way, you were one of my closest matches in BigY, when it was working properly. I too share that match from As-Suwayda, not just him two others from Lebanon (Also Druzes). They are the closest to me, but I am not in the same subclade with them. I understand that they do share some additional SNPs that I do not have.
So, it is obvious they are closer to each other. I'm told that their TRMCA is around 2400 years.

When I am able to transfer my data YFull. Hopefully I will have a refined age information, hopefully then I can make more educated guesses based on that.

Anyway my closest matches are Druze people, another recent YDNA match was Druze as well, I am pretty sure, if he had BigY he would be in the list as well.

I am not in a position to fairly discuss Druze history but from some of the references I read regarding Druze history and looking at my matches' TRMCA of 2400 years, I have a feeling that they could be a group of people residing in highlands of Anatolia and migrated to Lebanon/Syria area.
I am thinking the Druze identity did not exist back then, as it is partly a religious one. If so, these people were someone else. Who were they? Were they Meds who would become Kurds with time. Armenians, Assyrians or Turkish?

That leaves us with the several scenarios. Going back to the list of people with DNA data it is not easy to conclude which scenario is the best fit to historical and geneological data we have.

About Dersim people you are totaly right as they define themselves to be Kurmanji, they are Kurds, But I have a question mark whether they're Kurdified Turks originated from Central Asia or the original Kurds/Assyrians/Armenians descending from Meds/Hitites/Urartus of the area and they were the original old landowner. I have tried to read Klyosov paper, but it is Russian and the auto-translation is not satisfying ( http://www.anatole-klyosov.com/09_04_2016.pdf)

You mention of Turkish people of this subclade, I figure except myself I cannot see any other Turkish people. There are Armenians classified under Turkey, Kurdish ones (Kurmanjies) and myself. My mother's side is Turkish, and my father can be classified as Kurdish, ignoring the fact that "they claim Caucasian origin". With the existing people there are Kurdish and Armenian people of Turkey.

You are trully right, it's a big mystery.

I agree with you Kurdish connection seem like easiest scenario.

But it is very interesting when you say your paternal side's matches are consist of Turks and Hazaras. Are you talking about autosomal matches??
I might not be a good reference as my maternal line is Turkish with a recent possible migration route from Azerbaijan to Anatolia. My x-matches seem like they're Turkish when I look at their oracles.

Most of my autosomal matches are mostly from Eastern Turkey, some group originating Malatya-Elazığ-Sivas-Maraş region where Turks and Kurds present. And one group is from Dersim which mostly define themselves as Kurmanji/Zaza and a one Armenian family which look like a outlier in my ancestry line. But all this is in 300 years time frame at most. So it will not be helpfull to relate it to YDNA data.

I guess when I am able to do YFull and have the results it would be very handy to understand and connect it to the historical background. But very likely it will be in the region of 1800-2400 ybp.

I know, my writing is a bit complicated as it reflects my mindhood:)

It is always good to hear from you, please keep in touch.

khanabadoshi
11-16-2017, 09:33 PM
There seems to be a new individual just downstream. Anyone know the ethnicity? By the way, I have added you too Alhan (I hope I got the information correctly).
(I've been trying to compile the whole list of people in the subclades)



ID
Location
YDNA
Tribe
FTDNA/Study ID
mtDNA


KURD
Region 4, Kurdistan
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282 (M458-, M558-, Z284-)
?
Cinnioglu et al., 2004



KURD
Region 4, Kurdistan
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282 (M458-, M558-, Z284-)
?
Cinnioglu et al., 2004



ARMENIAN
Sepastia/Sivas, Turkey
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491+
Oskian Kaspar
223757



KURD
Kurdistan
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858
?
Stenersen et al. 2004
?


KURD
Konya, Turkey
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858
Kurmanji
214352



KURD
Kurdistan
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858
?
Ozbas-Gerceker et al., 2013


KURD
Şengal/Sinjar, Nineveh, Iraq
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858
Ezidi
534044
I


KURD
Ankara, Turkey
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858
Kurmanji
Gokcumen et al., 2011


PAKISTAN
Muzaffargarh, Pakistan
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858*-A (Southwest Asian)
Baloch
YF04155
A8a


ARAB
?
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858*-A1 (Arab)
?
348623



ARAB
?
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858*-A1 (Arab)
Alkhaldi
232376



ARAB
?
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858*-A1 (Arab)
?
231554



ARAB
?
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858*-A1 (Arab)
?
M7258



GULF ARAB
Qatar
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>BY27345
?
M11216



GULF ARAB
Buraidah, Al-Qassim, Saudi Arabia
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>FGC64133
العبود الحسن بريدة
404308



TURK
Alhanuşağı, Malatya, Turkey
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>FGC64133>FGC64132*
HŁseyin Alhan, b1835 in Malatya
695626



LEBANESE
Ramliyeh, Lebanon
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>FGC64133>FGC64132-A (Levantine)
جب عز الدين؛ آل سلمان؛ الرملية؛ عاليه
M10846



DRUZE
Kanakir, Syria
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>FGC64133>FGC64132-A (Levantine)
فرع حمدان الحمدان؛ آل الحمدان؛ كناكر؛ السويداء
M11296; YF08660



LEBANESE
Ba'bda, Qraiye, Lebanon
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>FGC64133>FGC64132-A (Levantine)
جب معزّ؛ عائلة ضو؛ القريّة؛ بعبدا
M9785



ARMENIAN
Bitlis, Turkey
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>YP5820
Setrak Avdoyan (nť Yeranossian)
182305



KURD
DÍrsim/Tunceli, Turkey
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>YP5820-A
Kurmanji; PÓlvenkan
E22087
I


KURD
DÍrsim/Tunceli, Turkey
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>YP5820-A
Kurmanji; PÓlvenkan
E18606



KURD
DÍrsim/Tunceli, Turkey
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>YP5820-A
Kurmanji; PÓlvenkan
E21646
U


NEW
?
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>YP5820>YP6513
?
YF11209
?

alhan
11-17-2017, 01:37 PM
There seems to be a new individual just downstream. Anyone know the ethnicity? By the way, I have added you too Alhan (I hope I got the information correctly).
(I've been trying to compile the whole list of people in the subclades)



Great work Khanabadoshi thank you.

The new person's kit number starts with YF, How did you get this info? Do you know his markers?

By the way, I've got a new YDNA match who defines himself as Druze on his info sheet at FTDNA. His kit number is M12067 and our genetic distance is "one". I am speculating that if he had BigY, I am pretty sure we would share more SNPs than that of other Druze members. And I'm pretty sure if he had BigY we would be under same subclade.

I've read in a Facebook page that FTDNA will provide STRs to BigY customers in 2018. That way it will be a lot easier to connect the dots.

khanabadoshi
11-17-2017, 02:37 PM
Great work Khanabadoshi thank you.

The new person's kit number starts with YF, How did you get this info? Do you know his markers?

By the way, I've got a new YDNA match who defines himself as Druze on his info sheet at FTDNA. His kit number is M12067 and our genetic distance is "one". I am speculating that if he had BigY, I am pretty sure we would share more SNPs than that of other Druze members. And I'm pretty sure if he had BigY we would be under same subclade.

I've read in a Facebook page that FTDNA will provide STRs to BigY customers in 2018. That way it will be a lot easier to connect the dots.

The YFXXXX numbers are IDs on yfull tree.
The other numbers are FTDNA kit IDs.


I don't know his FTDNA id, maybe M12067 is him?

Do you know anything about these Arabs? I'm having a hard time identifying where they are from even.




ARAB
?
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858*-A1 (Arab)
?
348623



ARAB
?
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858*-A1 (Arab)
Alkhaldi
232376



ARAB
?
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858*-A1 (Arab)
?
231554



ARAB
?
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858*-A1 (Arab)
?
M7258





Do you know if these Lebanese are Druze? M10846 says something like "Jab Ezzdin; Family - Al-Salman". M9785 says "Jab M'uz; Family - Dhou".




LEBANESE
Ramliyeh, Lebanon
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>FGC64133>FGC6413 2-A (Levantine)
جب عز الدين؛ آل سلمان؛ الرملية؛ عاليه
M10846




LEBANESE
Ba'bda, Qraiye, Lebanon
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>FGC64133>FGC6413 2-A (Levantine)
جب معزّ؛ عائلة ضو؛ القريّة؛ بعبدا
M9785





Also the Druze from As-Suwaidah; Kanakir, Syria is categorized a little differently on yFull than he is on FTDNA. In the spreadsheet I posted as he is on FTDNA. However, on yFULL he is with me:
https://i.gyazo.com/f2b67a69bb73f923aad720ddaa51e797.png

You can see the new person there too.

If you haven't, I'd suggest uploading your BAM file to yfull.com. They are very good at visualizing the tree and interpreting your data.

Michał
11-17-2017, 05:56 PM
The YFXXXX numbers are IDs on yfull tree.
The other numbers are FTDNA kit IDs.

I don't know his FTDNA id, maybe M12067 is him?

He is either kit M11216 or his close STR match who has been tested with Big Y but has not joined our project yet (so I don't know his FTDNA kit number). They form a common subclade under YP5820 that is named YP6513 in YFull but BY27345 in FTDNA.

alhan
11-20-2017, 01:20 PM
I don't know his FTDNA id, maybe M12067 is him?
Do you know anything about these Arabs? I'm having a hard time identifying where they are from even.




ARAB
?
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858*-A1 (Arab)
?
348623



ARAB
?
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858*-A1 (Arab)
Alkhaldi
232376



ARAB
?
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858*-A1 (Arab)
?
231554



ARAB
?
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858*-A1 (Arab)
?
M7258





Do you know if these Lebanese are Druze? M10846 says something like "Jab Ezzdin; Family - Al-Salman". M9785 says "Jab M'uz; Family - Dhou".




LEBANESE
Ramliyeh, Lebanon
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>FGC64133>FGC6413 2-A (Levantine)
جب عز الدين؛ آل سلمان؛ الرملية؛ عاليه
M10846




LEBANESE
Ba'bda, Qraiye, Lebanon
R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858>FGC64133>FGC6413 2-A (Levantine)
جب معزّ؛ عائلة ضو؛ القريّة؛ بعبدا
M9785





If you haven't, I'd suggest uploading your BAM file to yfull.com. They are very good at visualizing the tree and interpreting your data.


It's almost three months of waiting for BAM file. FTDNA is so slow providing BAM file, I am just tired. I will submit my BAM File when they provide the link.

The Arabs on YP4858*A*; most likely all of them are from Kuwait, but I did not have a chance to discuss with any of them; so, it's pure speculation at this point.
Looking at their markers kit numbers 348623&232376 seem a lot different than kit numbers 231554 & M7258.

I am a member of Druze Project under FTDNA, and the Administrator of the Project has deep knowledge of these Lebanese testers and managing their kits. From our correspondence with him, I can tell you that all three members classified under "FGC64132-A Levantine cluster" are Druzes.
In addition to these three testers, in the Druze project we have M12067 under R-FGC64132. He is probably one of my recent YDNA matches at one step, (I say probably because I cannot see the kit number on YDNA matches page of FTDNA!)

Being a recent DNA match, I don't think the new guy in the list YF11209 is M12067.




Kit number M12067 is closer to me (695626 in case anyone wonders my kit number) than other members at Y12. I might have a closer TRMCA with him, but again that is just a speculation. I've learned about Druze's members, their names and background from the administrator of Druze project but I guess it will not be appropriate to disclose this info here.

alhan
01-12-2018, 12:48 PM
KURD Ankara, Turkey R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858 Kurmanji Gokcumen et al., 2011

Khanabadoshi, do you know the sample number for this sample on Gokcumen's paper. I'm guessing he is one of the testers from the village of Merkez.
It's interesting I have some STR markers on these testers, I am not sure if that data had any depth to classify them down to YP4858..

khanabadoshi
01-14-2018, 04:41 AM
KURD Ankara, Turkey R-M417>Z645>Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858 Kurmanji Gokcumen et al., 2011

Khanabadoshi, do you know the sample number for this sample on Gokcumen's paper. I'm guessing he is one of the testers from the village of Merkez.
It's interesting I have some STR markers on these testers, I am not sure if that data had any depth to classify them down to YP4858..

MfA will know better, I think he curated the results.

alhan
01-16-2018, 11:11 AM
While waiting for my BAM File. I took the opportunity and have my VCF tested by YFull. They will upgrade my account when my BAM File is available.

Now I am officially YF11543 and on the YTree.

20852

However I see that they did not yet established a new branch down from R-YP4858 (As FTDNA did FGC64132)

My understanding they do not use FGC as new clade title in YFull.
I wonder if they are going to form a new "YP" clade on the YTree??

alhan
01-25-2018, 08:43 AM
I think since YFull do not have my BAM file (only VCF)

- They're not recalculating TMRCA for YP4858
- Not forming a new subclade under YP4858

Any ideas?

lgmayka
01-26-2018, 01:52 AM
I think since YFull do not have my BAM file (only VCF)

- They're not recalculating TMRCA for YP4858
- Not forming a new subclade under YP4858
According to YFull's own advertisement, VCF files do cause changes/additions in the haplotree--but as always, only with the next iteration of the tree. Right now, the tree is at 6.01. Wait for 6.02.

You are correct that VCF files cannot yield TMRCA estimates.

alhan
01-31-2018, 12:12 PM
At this point, you should know my paternal line is evidently Baloch and among the Baloch, my tribe is of uncertain lineage (generally regarded as not "pure" Baloch). The oral history of the Baloch is of west to east from the Caspian region, along the way they captured/incorporated other peoples into their tribal system. In which case, my y-DNA fits somewhat nicely. Except for the problem that no one else in Pakistan or Iran or India seems to have the same y-DNA, and it isn't entirely certain if/when a Baloch migration occurred. So currently the thought is that my family is a later migrant from West Asia to South Asia, it seems to be the only way to reconcile the haplogroup.

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It's a big mystery for me. Trying to figure out Y17491 will help me figure out history of my tribe. So far my closest match is a Druze from As-Suwayda, Syria. I don't know what conclusions to draw from this.

Or... extrapolate this further, maybe those Kurds and Druze have a Turkish-Mongol origin...because everyone in the paternal side of my family have Hazara and Turks high up in their match lists -- the Uzbek maternal side of my family doesn't! So maybe we have the story of a man who went from Eastern Europe to Central Asia (Western to Eastern Steppe), but his brothers went further into Ukraine (explains the European side of the clade). The brother in Central Asia had descendants that went to Turkey with the Seljuks and from there some descendants among the Kurds went south to Syria to become Druze. Others became settled among the Kurds or Turks, while others went east to the Caspian. The one in the Caspian region, migrates with the Baloch to the east... and that Baloch descendant migrates east again to the Indus and voila ... Khanabadoshi!


Khanabadoshi, while I was digging my autosomal matches. I noticed that you and myself are not only related through our YDNA but possibly also through Autosomal data.

I've seen you and almost all your family members are a match to a person from Turkey(alias: IMO*). Seeing this I decided to push the thresholds of Gedmatch in order to have some sensible connection between us.

And yes, beyond the thresholds we do match on several chromosomes. It really looks like irrelevant matches -2,70 cM being the longest- but knowing our YDNA match and your match to that person from Turkey, I think there might be something relevant.

Besides, I do also match to your match (IMO*).

I think your connection to Anatolia and As-Suwayda might not be that deep in history.

Because, there is a possibility that we connect to some other people from Iran, Azerbaijan as well.

I've already sent you and e-mail with the details of these connections. Hoping that with your technical knowledge we can confirm or ignore this possibility.