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View Full Version : Z283(xZ282) found from Poland to Switzerland to England



lgmayka
01-31-2016, 02:46 AM
Kit 424729 of Poland has tested Z283+ Z282- . But according to the Y-SNPs page of the R1a Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ysnp), these project members have also tested Z283+ Z282- .
374874 of Switzerland
226541 of Germany
360638 of Germany
199628 of England
N50360 of England
160791
293167
N49600
Ancestral countries are taken from the Y-STRs page of that same project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=yresults).

epp
02-06-2017, 03:03 PM
I believe these samples are crucial to understanding R1a's development. They have a relatively recent TMRCA. What is the common geographical or ethnic factor about them?

I cannot find detailed data for 424729, nor for N50360 (who, being called Bambrook, is presumably a fairly recent relative of 199628's Benbrook - English).
German 266541, 360638, 293167 and N49600 are all members of the same family - Feist.
Swiss 374874 is a Myers. 160971 is a Ledwill (English).

Are they all of ancient European (most likely Germanic) origin? Or are they of ancient Middle Eastern origin (Jewish descent)? The names Feist and Myers are both associated with the Ashkenazi community - and some Swiss Myers were also identified as Anabaptists (possibly descended from Jewish converts?).

If we could confidently answer this question, I believe R1a's entire developmental route would become much clearer. Does anyone have any more information on this?

lgmayka
02-06-2017, 05:07 PM
YFull's R-Z283 haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z283/) displays only one clade outside Z282, namely R-YP4758 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP4758/). The next version of the tree should give a TMRCA estimate for this clade.

Of course, we don't know whether all known Z283xZ282 men belong to R-YP4758. We need more Big Y testing.

epp
02-06-2017, 05:48 PM
The original sample is probably Feist, as the source is listed as FTDNA and it is from Germany. Given the number of SNPs for this sample and the STR variances between the FTDNA samples, my guess is that all of these samples would also be YP4758. The question is - do they derive from a Middle Eastern or a European MRCA?

08-19-2017, 11:54 AM
YFull's R-Z283 haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z283/) displays only one clade outside Z282, namely R-YP4758 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP4758/). The next version of the tree should give a TMRCA estimate for this clade.

Of course, we don't know whether all known Z283xZ282 men belong to R-YP4758. We need more Big Y testing.
Coming soon :beerchug:

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-19-2017, 12:39 PM
Reminds me a bit of RU106 Z326 - it's everywhere, from Scandinavia to Britain, Germany, Poland, Finland Russia, Hungary, Italy etc. etc. John

Dibran
08-23-2017, 03:37 PM
z283 here, negative downstream according to livingDNA. Yelite is undergoing sequencing. Not too long until I have a result. From Albania.

08-26-2017, 09:37 AM
z283 here, negative downstream according to livingDNA. Yelite is undergoing sequencing. Not too long until I have a result. From Albania.

Should be interesting what it shows, I’m in a similar position to you and waiting for my Big Y results, also so far Negative downstream of RZ283.
Can you then upload them to YFull?

Please post your results,

Dibran
08-26-2017, 09:09 PM
Should be interesting what it shows, I’m in a similar position to you and waiting for my Big Y results, also so far Negative downstream of RZ283.
Can you then upload them to YFull?

Please post your results,

Yea, once I get my results I will upload to Yfull, and alert Michal. Should be interesting to see what we learn. Some oral history claims we may possibly come from a Condottieri from Italy. Before it was common to employ Italians, I understand a good number of Condottieri were employed from Germany Scandinavia and England. If the oral history is true, and we come from a foreign Condottieri employed by the King of Albania, then its possible thats how Z283 made its way there if its really negative for the downstream clades.

motley
08-30-2017, 10:49 AM
Hello. I've just registered with this forum because I stumbled across your post in an internet search. I'm an experienced genealogist and interested in using Y-chromosome analysis to help my research into the origins of my unusual surname (Benbrook). However, my knowledge of genetics is at an elementary level.
The sample 199628 belongs to me, and N50360 shares all but 4 of my markers in a 67 marker test and thus we probably have a genealogically relevant common ancestor. I live in England and have an unbroken paternal line through 9 generations in London, England. N50360 lives in the US, but can document his ancestry back to Northamptonshire, England. He also shares my surname (the spelling often varies, as you suggested). So it's probable that my ancestors moved to London from somewhere near Northamptonshire.
My understanding from this thread is that N50360 and I belong to a sub-clade that requires more investigation. A recent email from the R1a project seems to point me towards a Big Y test, but I'm not sure I'm prepared for that level of expense; is there an alternative that would help, but wouldn't cost as much?

lyakh
08-30-2017, 05:21 PM
Interesting is that R1a-Z283xZ282 was found in Poland (#424729). Why it was present here? Who were ancestors of #424729 2000 years ago? Germanics?

Michał
08-30-2017, 11:08 PM
Interesting is that R1a-Z283xZ282 was found in Poland (#424729). Why it was present here?
Why do you consider Poland to be a surprising place for finding Z283xZ282? We know that Z283 was likely associated with Corded Ware people, and Poland was a home for many CWC-derived populations/cultures, so I would say that finding Z283xZ282 in Poland should be nearly equally likely like in any other country associated with CWC.



Who were ancestors of #424729 2000 years ago? Germanics?
We need more data about his specific lineage/subclade under Z283 to answer this question.

Dibran
10-13-2017, 04:18 PM
Coming soon :beerchug:

right there with ya!(Yelite). Doing Y67 too in the interim.

Michał
10-17-2017, 09:48 AM
right there with ya!(Yelite). Doing Y67 too in the interim.
Your 67 STRs are ready, and it seems almost certain that you belong to clade CTS11962 within the large "Slavic" branch M458. More specifically, you are quite likely to belong to subclade YP515, a brother clade for a much more common subclade L1029 under CTS11962, although this needs to be confirmed by further testing (like your Y Elite test).

10-17-2017, 10:04 AM
Thats interesting, didnt LivingDNA already test for Z282, and was Negative?

Michał
10-17-2017, 10:36 AM
Thats interesting, didnt LivingDNA already test for Z282, and was Negative?
Are you sure that LivingDNA tests for Z282? It is not mentioned among the SNPs listed in one of your previous posts (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7099-Features-of-Z283-clade/page2&p=259291#post259291).
However, if Dibran is indeed CTS11962+, he should be reported by LivingDNA as M458+, so either my STR-based prediction is wrong or his M458- result is false negative. User angscoire has previously reported some false negative results he got from LivingDNA (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7099-Features-of-Z283-clade&p=259312&viewfull=1#post259312), so this needs to be taken into consideration. On the other hand, there is still a chance that it is a pure coincidence that Dibran's STR haplotype resembles the CTS11962 haplotypes. In fact, he shows some individual STR results that are rvery rare in clade CTS11962, so there is still a possibility that he belongs to a non-M458 subclade under Z283.

10-17-2017, 10:41 AM
Are you sure that LivingDNA tests for Z282? It is not mentioned among the SNPs listed in one of your previous posts (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7099-Features-of-Z283-clade/page2&p=259291#post259291).
However, if Dibran is indeed CTS11962+, he should be reported by LivingDNA as M458+, so either my STR-based prediction is wrong or his M458- result is false negative. User angscoire has previously reported some false negative results he got from LivingDNA (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7099-Features-of-Z283-clade&p=259312&viewfull=1#post259312), so this needs to be taken into consideration. On the other hand, there is still a chance that it is a pure coincidence that Dibran's STR haplotype resembles the CTS11962 haplotypes. In fact, he shows some individual STR results that are rvery rare in clade CTS11962, so there is still a possibility that he belongs to a non-M458 subclade under Z283.

Hi Michal,

Sorry yes you are correct, I just checked my original email from LivingDNA, they do not test for "Z282", but they do test for, "M458/PF6241"

Here is the contents of their mail to me:-

We test for 18 markers "under" R-Z283. They are as follows:
M458/PF6241
L260/S222
Z280
S204/Z91
CTS8557/Z661
CTS91/S344/Z660
S205/Z92
CTS1211/S3357
P278/P278.1/P278.2
P278/P278.1/P278.2
CTS3402/S3361/V2670
L365/S468
S443/Z289
S221/Z284
L448/S200
S223/Z287
S345/Z288
S342/Z88

Michał
10-17-2017, 10:47 AM
^BTW, the Nevgen predictor says:

62.6% Unsupported subclade
13.3% R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
13.0% R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP444
11.2% R1a Z282>M458>> YP515

Dibran
10-17-2017, 01:37 PM
^BTW, the Nevgen predictor says:

62.6% Unsupported subclade
13.3% R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP417
13.0% R1a Z282>M458>> L1029>YP444
11.2% R1a Z282>M458>> YP515

I can only view Y37. It still says 67 is testing. What does the above mean? Is this in reference to me?

10-17-2017, 02:19 PM
I can only view Y37. It still says 67 is testing. What does the above mean? Is this in reference to me?

yes I think it was Dibran.

Dibran
10-17-2017, 02:22 PM
yes I think it was Dibran.

So If I am reading it right then it means I am 62% likely unknown clade? I have no matches at 37(not sure about 67). Assuming I am in fact L1029, then what are the likely scenarios? Gothic? Slavs entering the Balkans during the Great Migration?

10-17-2017, 02:31 PM
So If I am reading it right then it means I am 62% likely unknown clade? I have no matches at 37(not sure about 67). Assuming I am in fact L1029, then what are the likely scenarios? Gothic? Slavs entering the Balkans during the Great Migration?

19332

I suppose that's very hard now to estimate, but it has narrowed down the possibilities..

Dibran
10-17-2017, 02:52 PM
19332

I suppose that's very hard now to estimate, but it has narrowed down the possibilities..

Well there is no certainty as of yet. Especially with that 62 plus percent unknown factor. I suppose I will have to wait until Yelite is done to have clarity. However, Y67 still says testing.

Michał
10-17-2017, 03:26 PM
I suppose I will have to wait until Yelite is done to have clarity. However, Y67 still says testing.
Your results for all those 67 markers are available both on your personal FTDNA page (in section Y-STR Results) and in our R1a project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?section=yresults, incerase the page size to 7500).

Dibran
10-17-2017, 03:35 PM
Your results for all those 67 markers are available both on your personal FTDNA page (in section Y-STR Results) and in our R1a project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?section=yresults, incerase the page size to 7500).

Why cant I view Y67 at the match level? Only allows 37 in my drop down. Additionally, with nevgen predicting 62.6 unknown, what is the likelihood I will be M458? 38 percent or so? Also, I just checked and I don't come up when finding my name under page size 7500.

Michał
10-17-2017, 06:55 PM
Why cant I view Y67 at the match level? Only allows 37 in my drop down.

I guess you will need to wait a day or two before the 67 STR matches become available. However, I doubt you will get any Y67 matches (when having no matches at 37 or 25 STRs).



Additionally, with nevgen predicting 62.6 unknown, what is the likelihood I will be M458? 38 percent or so?

I am pretty sure those 62.6% include all remaining (known and unknown) subclades under both M458 and L1029, among others.



Also, I just checked and I don't come up when finding my name under page size 7500.

Your private settings make your results invisible for non-members, so you need to be logged in (as a project member) to see all results, including those hidden to non-members. Alternatively, you can change your personal settings and make your results visible to all visitors.

Dibran
10-17-2017, 07:29 PM
I guess you will need to wait a day or two before the 67 STR matches become available. However, I doubt you will get any Y67 matches (when having no matches at 37 or 25 STRs).



I am pretty sure those 62.6% include all remaining (known and unknown) subclades under both M458 and L1029, among others.



Your private settings make your results invisible for non-members, so you need to be logged in (as a project member) to see all results, including those hidden to non-members. Alternatively, you can change your personal settings and make your results visible to all visitors.

I just find this all questionable at best. So LivingDNA lied? and if they didn't lie, then how reliable are results from any company if they can't seem to agree/contradict each other? Additionally( I mentioned it further up with no answer). How would YP515 make it into Albania? Goths? Great Migration Byzantine Slav? What? You also suggested my rare STRs in one clade may indicate a possible non-M458 clade.

Michał
10-17-2017, 07:40 PM
I just find this all questionable at best. So LivingDNA lied? and if they didn't lie, then how reliable are results from any company if they can't seem to agree/contradict each other? Additionally( I mentioned it further up with no answer). How would YP515 make it into Albania? Goths? Great Migration Byzantine Slav? What? You also suggested my rare STRs in one clade may indicate a possible non-M458 clade.
Fortunately enough, you have ordered the Y Elite test, so this should definitely clear it up. It is actually quite common that STRs give equivocal results, so this is not surprising at all. As for LivingDNA, we won't know whether their results are correct until you get your Y Elite test done. Also, let's wait for your Y Elite results before starting to speculate on possible scenarios explaining the presence of your lineage in Albania.

Dibran
10-17-2017, 07:52 PM
Fortunately enough, you have ordered the Y Elite test, so this should definitely clear it up. It is actually quite common that STRs give equivocal results, so this is not surprising at all. As for LivingDNA, we won't know whether their results are correct until you get your Y Elite test done. Also, let's wait for your Y Elite results before starting to speculate on possible scenarios explaining the presence of your lineage in Albania.

Ok, fair enough. Question, the values you entered into nevgen that produced the result with 62 percent unknown. Someone else ran mine through Albanian bloodlines and states it was entered incorrectly. Their read said 57 percent probability of YP515, but 100 percent M458 overall. Whereas your post mention 38% probability and 62 unknown. Which one is it?

Nive1526
10-17-2017, 08:34 PM
Have you tried searching the ysearch.com database by its query function?
http://www.ysearch.org/search_search.asp?uid=&freeentry=true

It contains str results from non-ftdna testers.

Dibran
10-17-2017, 09:30 PM
For STRs I still get this " PANEL 4 (61-67)
Awaiting Lab Results


The rest of them were there since this morning. Thoughts?

Trojet
10-17-2017, 09:50 PM
For STRs I still get this " PANEL 4 (61-67)
Awaiting Lab Results


The rest of them were there since this morning. Thoughts?

Dibran, all your STRs are in, including the 38-67 panel, as you can see here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AlbanianBloodlines?iframe=yresults

The issue seems to be that the FTDNA matching for the 67 panel is not yet done. I assume it's because you had ordered Y37 first and soon after upgraded to Y67.

I see you're predicted: R1a-M458>CTS11962>YP515, which is in contradiction with your LivingDNA results, since they told you that you were tested negative for M458. It's quite possible the prediction is wrong, since you have no close matches either. This can happen due to convergence, meaning your STRs have randomly mutated so that now they appear close to CTS11962>YP515 group. As Michal mentioned, the good news is that you have Y-Elite on the way which will definitely clear things up.

Michał
10-17-2017, 10:38 PM
Question, the values you entered into nevgen that produced the result with 62 percent unknown. Someone else ran mine through Albanian bloodlines and states it was entered incorrectly. Their read said 57 percent probability of YP515, but 100 percent M458 overall. Whereas your post mention 38% probability and 62 unknown. Which one is it?
Perhaps I made a mistake when introducing your STR results, as I have just repeated it again and the numbers are indeed a bit different. However, I still get the highest percentage for "Unsupported subclades". Here is how it looks like:
19337

Could you please ask that person to send you a screenshot, so we could see where the difference is?
One thing that worries me a bit is that Nevgen does not seem to accept all of your extra copies for DYS464 (ie. DYS464e and DYS464f), CDY (ie. CDYc) and DYS459 (ie. DYS459c), so maybe this is where the problem lies (and there is a way to overcome this).

Ancient-Alien
10-17-2017, 10:45 PM
Dibran, all your STRs are in, including the 38-67 panel, as you can see here: ,,

The issue seems to be that the FTDNA matching for the 67 panel is not yet done. I assume it's because you had ordered Y37 first and soon after upgraded to Y67.

I see you're predicted: R1a-M458>CTS11962>YP515, which is in contradiction with your LivingDNA results, since they told you that you were tested negative for M458 positive. It's quite possible the prediction is wrong, since you have no close matches either. This can happen due to convergence, meaning your STRs have randomly mutated so that now they appear close to CTS11962>YP515 group. As Michal mentioned, the good news is that you have Y-Elite on the way which will definitely clear things up.



Whats your opinion Trojet? It would be really strange if he was really tested M458-

He at least has some distant matches as i stated on our project that are GD 13-15 on 67 that are all M458 positive.
But if he is really negative for M458 then it means that even these matches are false and that he is total snow flake. Very unlikely.

Do you give more chance to convergence or M458?

Trojet
10-17-2017, 10:48 PM
Perhaps I made a mistake when introducing your STR results, as I have just repeated it again and the numbers are indeed a bit different. However, I still get the highest percentage for "Unsupported subclades". Here is how it looks like:
19337

Could you please ask that person to send you a screenshot, so we could see where the difference is?
One thing that worries me a bit is that Nevgen does not seem to accept all of your extra copies for DYS464 (ie. DYS464e and DYS464f), CDY (ie. CDYc) and DYS459 (ie. DYS459c), so maybe this is where the problem lies (and there is a way to overcome this).

In fact it was me who told him that DYS464, DYS459, and CDY values are not being entered in the Nevgen calculator due to more multi copy values than usual. So this morning when I manually entered 12,14,14,16 for DYS464, 9,10 for DYS459, and 33,40 for CDY, I got 57% R1a-M458>>YP515. In fact I did save a screenshot:
https://s1.postimg.org/7xpbvwwqun/IMG_20171017_173948.jpg

You are right that now it says higher "unsupported" percentage, which is weird. Not sure why, unless Nevgen adjusted their calculator in the meantime.

Michał
10-17-2017, 11:02 PM
Dibran, you show most of the results that form the so-called CTS11962 signature, which includes such results like DYS391<11, DYS439>10, DY389II<30 (or actually DYS389b<18), DYS452>15, DYS447<24, DYS537<12, DYF406S1>11, DYS413a<22, DYS481>23 and the duplication within the so-called palindromic sequence P1 (encompassing DYS459, DYS464 and CDY), which are all non-modal values for R1a. The only two elements of that signature you are missing are DYS456>16 and DYS446>12.

YP515 is usually recognized based on a co-existence of three additional non-modal STR results, and these are DYS460=10, CDYa<34 and the presence of at least one allele 13 in a multicopy marker DYS464. In our project, we usually assume that the presence of at least two out of those three results is a good predictor for YP515, and you show DYS460=10 and CDYa<34.

Ancient-Alien
10-17-2017, 11:21 PM
Perhaps I made a mistake when introducing your STR results, as I have just repeated it again and the numbers are indeed a bit different. However, I still get the highest percentage for "Unsupported subclades". Here is how it looks like:


Could you please ask that person to send you a screenshot, so we could see where the difference is?
One thing that worries me a bit is that Nevgen does not seem to accept all of your extra copies for DYS464 (ie. DYS464e and DYS464f), CDY (ie. CDYc) and DYS459 (ie. DYS459c), so maybe this is where the problem lies (and there is a way to overcome this).



It was me, but i haven't used the website predictor but nevgen TMRCA aplication.

it gives this result:

Probability-------------------------Fitness
Вѣроватноћа = 100.00% уклапање = 57.04 Р1а М458 Срѣдња Европа
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 39.90 Р1а Z282 Европа
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 39.94 Р1а Z93 Евроазийска
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 33.58 Р1а Y2395 Западна и Сѣверна Европа
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 24.61 Р1а ЦТС4385 Западна Европа
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 25.29 Р2
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 16.38 Р1а Л1280 Млађовци
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 16.58 Р1а Y2613 Карпатско-далматински грозд
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 22.64 Ку М346>М3
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 16.32 Г2а2а - Л91
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 13.18 Ку М346>Z780
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 12.55 Р1б В88
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 11.73 И2а1 Исл



so it predicts him 100% M458 and it has pretty good fitness of 57.04 also.



Furthermore he has matches GD 13-15 on 67 with closest one GD 13 being guy with ID 191519 in R1a project estimated to be 80 generations away.
while on YP515 where he was predicted by R1a admin he has little more differences but only 50 generation TMRCA based on str calculators.

Everything points out he is somewhere below M458

Michał
10-17-2017, 11:25 PM
I just find this all questionable at best. So LivingDNA lied? and if they didn't lie, then how reliable are results from any company if they can't seem to agree/contradict each other?


I see you're predicted: R1a-M458>CTS11962>YP515, which is in contradiction with your LivingDNA results, since they told you that you were tested negative for M458. It's quite possible the prediction is wrong, since you have no close matches either. This can happen due to convergence, meaning your STRs have randomly mutated so that now they appear close to CTS11962>YP515 group.

Whats your opinion Trojet? It would be really strange if he was really tested M458-

He at least has some distant matches as i stated on our project that are GD 13-15 on 67 that are all M458 positive.
But if he is really negative for M458 then it means that even these matches are false and that he is total snow flake. Very unlikely.

Do you give more chance to convergence or M458?
If I had to bet, I would bet that Dibran is M458+ (and CTS11962+), so his M458- result from LivingDNA is just a false negative result (or a no-call), but let's wait and see.

Pribislav
10-17-2017, 11:38 PM
Prediction on desktop version gives even better chances for YP515:

73,78 % YP515

24,50 % Unsuported subclade

19339

Michał
10-18-2017, 12:20 AM
Prediction on desktop version gives even better chances for YP515:

73,78 % YP515

According to my own rough estimates, subclade YP515 seems to be most common in Belarus (2.7%) and Poland (2.2%), while showing much lower frequencies (<0.5%) everywhere else, maybe except Lithuania where it may reach about 1%. In Poland, this subclade is mostly associated with the North-Eastern part of the country, including Podlasie, Mazovia and Eastern Pomerania, where the frequency of YP515 may equal to that in Belarus (or even slightly exceed it).

User Waldemar has once produced similar estimates for the entire clade CTS11962, and it turned out that this clade seems to be most frequent in Belarus (13.05%), followed by Poland (10.22%), so this indicates that also L1029 (a brother clade for YP515) is most common in Belarus (about 10%, compared to about 8% in Poland).

If Dibran is indeed CTS11962+ and YP515+, then it seems most likely that his lineage has reached the Balkans either with the Slavs or with the Goths. Finding relatively close STR and SNP matches may help us distinguish between these two possibilities, although I suspect this won't be easy.

Dibran
10-18-2017, 12:31 AM
Dibran, you show most of the results that form the so-called CTS11962 signature, which includes such results like DYS391<11, DYS439>10, DY389II<30 (or actually DYS389b<18), DYS452>15, DYS447<24, DYS537<12, DYF406S1>11, DYS413a<22, DYS481>23 and the duplication within the so-called palindromic sequence P1 (encompassing DYS459, DYS464 and CDY), which are all non-modal values for R1a. The only two elements of that signature you are missing are DYS456>16 and DYS446>12.

YP515 is usually recognized based on a co-existence of three additional non-modal STR results, and these are DYS460=10, CDYa<34 and the presence of at least one allele 13 in a multicopy marker DYS464. In our project, we usually assume that the presence of at least two out of those three results is a good predictor for YP515, and you show DYS460=10 and CDYa<34.

I suppose Yelite will be more conclusive. May have to wait until January(per email with FGC). Still quite a high amount of unsupported percentage. Is there any indication that the "unsupported" percentage may correspond to LivingDNA placing me in Z283? Perhaps they have a similar examination method, and did not feel confident in further placement? Or is there no doubt that I should at least be Z282(which oddly enough was not tested despite downstream clades being tested).

Dibran
10-18-2017, 12:34 AM
According to my own rough estimates, subclade YP515 seems to be most common in Belarus (2.7%) and Poland (2.2%), while showing much lower frequencies (<0.5%) everywhere else, maybe except Lithuania where it may reach about 1%. In Poland, this subclade is mostly associated with the North-Eastern part of the country, including Podlasie, Mazovia and Eastern Pomerania, where the frequency of YP515 may equal to that in Belarus (or even slightly exceed it).

User Waldemar has once produced similar estimates for the entire clade CTS11962, and it turned out that this clade seems to be most frequent in Belarus (13.05%), followed by Poland (10.22%), so this indicates that also L1029 (a brother clade for YP515) is most common in Belarus (about 10%, compared to about 8% in Poland).

If Dibran is indeed CTS11962+ and YP515+, then it seems most likely that his lineage has reached the Balkans either with the Slavs or with the Goths. Finding relatively close STR and SNP matches may help us distinguish between these two possibilities, although I suspect this won't be easy.

Assuming it entered via italy(per oral history), then I imagine Gothic to be the likely scenario. Whilst still likely in the direct to Balkans scenario, it seems more likely some Sklaveni tribe that invaded Byzantium. In hindsight, what does a lack of matches usually mean with regards to placement and other genealogical factors?

Ancient-Alien
10-18-2017, 12:35 AM
According to my own rough estimates, subclade YP515 seems to be most common in Belarus (2.7%) and Poland (2.2%), while showing much lower frequencies (<0.5%) everywhere else, maybe except Lithuania where it may reach about 1%. In Poland, this subclade is mostly associated with the North-Eastern part of the country, including Podlasie, Mazovia and Eastern Pomerania, where the frequency of YP515 may equal to that in Belarus (or even slightly exceed it).

User Waldemar has once produced similar estimates for the entire clade CTS11962, and it turned out that this clade seems to be most frequent in Belarus (13.05%), followed by Poland (10.22%), so this indicates that also L1029 (a brother clade for YP515) is most common in Belarus (about 10%, compared to about 8% in Poland).

If Dibran is indeed CTS11962+ and YP515+, then it seems most likely that his lineage has reached the Balkans either with the Slavs or with the Goths. Finding relatively close STR and SNP matches may help us distinguish between these two possibilities, although I suspect this won't be easy.

He has no close matches based on Ysearch and R1a project samples. But his further matches GD 13-15 are majority from Belarus, Poland, Russia, etc..
If it turns out that he is indeed M458 we can say that he will probably find M458 relatives on Ysearch and R1a project with who he will have 1500 - 2000 years TMRCA.

The only thing that is stopping us to say he is 100% M458 with closest relatives in Poland, Belarus and so on is his living dna snp that was supposed to test him positive to M458.

As for origin it looks Slavic in origin, and by my opinion arrived in 6th and 7th cet with Early Slavs. As i already told Dibran when we were talking about it on our project.


Im curious to hear about Gothic theory tho?

Dibran
10-18-2017, 12:42 AM
He has no close matches based on Ysearch and R1a project samples. But his further matches GD 13-15 are majority from Belarus, Poland, Russia, etc..
If it turns out that he is indeed M458 we can say that he will probably find M458 relatives on Ysearch and R1a project with who he will have 1500 - 2000 years TMRCA.

The only thing that is stopping us to say he is 100% M458 with closest relatives in Poland, Belarus and so on is his living dna snp that was supposed to test him positive to M458.

As for origin it looks Slavic in origin, and by my opinion arrived in 6th and 7th cet with Early Slavs. As i already told Dibran when we were talking about it on our project.


Im curious to hear about Gothic theory tho?

Most of my Ftdna matches were in Eastern Germany, and some in England, one in Hungary, 2 in Sweden. Idk if Y12 marker matches differs from what you looked at(still learning to navigate the site). Here is matches at Y12.


19341

Ancient-Alien
10-18-2017, 12:53 AM
Most of my Ftdna matches were in Eastern Germany, and some in England, one in Hungary, 2 in Sweden. Idk if Y12 marker matches differs from what you looked at(still learning to navigate the site). Here is matches at Y12.


No, your 12 markers matches go too far back in history and are irrelevant. I was speaking about your matches on 67 markers. So your closest matches based on str markers are on GD 13-15 it means that you have 13 to 15 differences with them on 67 markers compared. Then most of the differences are on faster mutating markers while you have like few differences on mid to slow markers.

Still nothing significant and based on this markers and their mutation rate predictors say that you had common ancestor within 50 - 80 generations on 67 markers with few people i checked under M458.
There is no one closer to you then this people in str marker analysis and every single one of them is M458+ but not all the same clade.

Michał
10-18-2017, 12:59 AM
Im curious to hear about Gothic theory tho?
If Dibran was L1029, I would strongly favor the Slavic scenario. By contrast to YP515, its brother clade L1029 is quite common in nearly all Slavic populations, including not only the Eastern and Western Slavs (and the neighboring non-Slavic populations, like the Germans, Hungarians or Balts), but also people of South Slavic ancestry (for example in Bulgaria and Greece, thus mostly in the Eastern part of the Balkans). So far, we have not seen any YP515 cases found south of the Carpathian range, so Dibran would be the first example (if confirmed).

The Goths are supposed to have been close neighbors of the Proto-Slavs, so some Slavic Y-DNA lineages could have been assimilated by the Goths before those Germanic-speaking people migrated to the Balkans and then to Southern Europe. The fact that YP515 is most frequent in Belarus and NE Poland makes it of course possible for some YP515 lineages to penetrate the Gothic community quite early on (ie. before the Wielbark Goths migrated from Poland to Ukraine), although this could also have happened after the Chernyakhov culture was founded just south of the presumably Proto-Slavic Kiev culture. However, I still consider the Slavic (ie. non-Gothic) scenario to be at least equally likely (or even slightly more likely), even if Dibran turns YP515+.

Dibran
10-18-2017, 01:04 AM
No, your 12 markers matches go too far back in history and are irrelevant. I was speaking about your matches on 67 markers. So your closest matches based on str markers are on GD 13-15 it means that you have 13 to 15 differences with them on 67 markers compared. Then most of the differences are on faster mutating markers while you have like few differences on mid to slow markers.

Still nothing significant and based on this markers and their mutation rate predictors say that you had common ancestor within 50 - 80 generations on 67 markers with few people i checked under M458.
There is no one closer to you then this people in str marker analysis and every single one of them is M458+ but not all the same clade.

1500-2400 years is not that conclusive though. I still have no official matches at Y67 level. I imagine that is a personal analysis? Otherwise its not updated for me.

Dibran
10-18-2017, 01:11 AM
If Dibran was L1029, I would strongly favor the Slavic scenario. By contrast to YP515, its brother clade L1029 is quite common in nearly all Slavic populations, including not only the Eastern and Western Slavs (and the neighboring non-Slavic populations, like the Germans, Hungarians or Balts), but also people of South Slavic ancestry (for example in Bulgaria and Greece, thus mostly in the Eastern part of the Balkans). So far, we have not seen any YP515 cases found south of the Carpathian range, so Dibran would be the first example (if confirmed).

The Goths are supposed to have been close neighbors of the Proto-Slavs, so some Slavic Y-DNA lineages could have been assimilated by the Goths before those Germanic-speaking people migrated to the Balkans and then to Southern Europe. The fact that YP515 is most frequent in Belarus and NE Poland makes it of course possible for some YP515 lineages to penetrate the Gothic community quite early on (ie. before the Wielbark Goths migrated from Poland to Ukraine), although this could also have happened after the Chernyakhov culture was founded just south of the presumably Proto-Slavic Kiev culture. However, I still consider the Slavic (ie. non-Gothic) scenario to be at least equally likely (or even slightly more likely), even if Dibran turns YP515+.

Assuming my male ancestor was a Condottieri from Italy, I don't see anything other than Gothic being the scenario. Sure in the case of the Balkans it would be different. Few more months I will have the results.

Ancient-Alien
10-18-2017, 01:25 AM
1500-2400 years is not that conclusive though. I still have no official matches at Y67 level. I imagine that is a personal analysis? Otherwise its not updated for me.


Yes, as i told you on our project discussion earlier, you most likely wont have any match displayed by FTDNA on 67 markers because they show matches only to GD 6 on Y67. and GD 4 on Y37.

while closest people you match are GD 13 (ID: 191519 in R1a project) 80 Gen TMRCA based on calculators and people where have you been grouped in R1a project so YP515.

Example under YP515 where you have been grouped there is Chechen guy just above you ID 700697 based on str markers, calculators say you two had MRCA before approximately 50 generations.
So with him you have more differences on markers then with your closest relative (based on Ysearch and R1a project ) but looks like these are faster mutating markers with less importance so TMRCA is lower, 50 generations x 30 = 1500 years.

67 markers are minimum for one to one good compare but on 111 markers its much more accurate. (both need to have 111)


For example i have done Y111 test in FTDNA but i dont get a single match even on 12 markers. But using this method i found my more distant relatives that FTDNA dont show. That are btw 90% Serbs.
We are like Roman Levantine leftover on Balkan (some kind of Vlachs) and everyone who falls into my cluster is today assimilated in his ethnicity. All of us have TMRCA 900 - 1200 years and except ourselves closest relatives are in Levant.

Michał
10-18-2017, 01:28 AM
In hindsight, what does a lack of matches usually mean with regards to placement and other genealogical factors?
In general, there seem to be three major factors that may contribute to this. Firstly, it happens when you belong to a subclade that is relatively rare (or nearly extinct). Secondly, it happens when you are from an undertested/underrepresented population (so even if your subclade is quite common, you won't get too many matches). Thirdly, it happens when you get (just by accident) a series of relatively recent STR mutations, especially within the first 12-25 markers (so it affects your matches at all levels). In your particular case, these three factors may act in concert, so this is why you show no close matches beyond the first 12 STRs.

Michał
10-18-2017, 01:56 AM
Is there any indication that the "unsupported" percentage may correspond to LivingDNA placing me in Z283? Perhaps they have a similar examination method, and did not feel confident in further placement?
LivingDNA does not test any STR markers, so these two things are not related to each other.


Or is there no doubt that I should at least be Z282(which oddly enough was not tested despite downstream clades being tested).
At the moment, your positive Z282 status is concluded solely from your predicted M458+/CTS11962+ status, so in case you are negative for M458 (and CTS11962), there is practically nothing in your STR results that will strongly predict your Z282 result.

Ancient-Alien
10-18-2017, 02:36 AM
He can always order M458 snp for 39$ upgrade if he feels its worth it and if he dont want to wait few more months for His super elite Y :D

Based on markers he is M458 100% only that we are not sure for subclade under it and ofc we are not sure for M458 because we have contradictory results where living dna should have test him with M458 snp and confirm it but they said its negative.

But if he is negative to M458 then he is some really isolated line with most likely no any close relative within the more thousands of years.. That would most likely separate him from Slavs and from everything recent but it is highly unlikely i would say.. More likely that living dna screwed up somewhere and this are his real matches under M458 in East Europe distant 1500 - 2500 years

Dibran
10-18-2017, 02:49 AM
He can always order M458 snp for 39$ upgrade if he feels its worth it and if he dont want to wait few more months for His super elite Y :D

Based on markers he is M458 100% only that we are not sure for subclade under it and ofc we are not sure for M458 because we have contradictory results where living dna should have test him with M458 snp and confirm it but they said its negative.

But if he is negative to M458 then he is some really isolated line with most likely no any close relative within the more thousands of years.. That would most likely separate him from Slavs and from everything recent but it is highly unlikely i would say.. More likely that living dna screwed up somewhere and this are his real matches under M458 in East Europe distant 1500 - 2500 years


LivingDNA does not test any STR markers, so these two things are not related to each other.


At the moment, your positive Z282 status is concluded solely from your predicted M458+/CTS11962+ status, so in case you are negative for M458 (and CTS11962), there is practically nothing in your STR results that will strongly predict your Z282 result.


Thats the thing. If LivingDNA tests SNPs and not STRs, then wouldn't their assessment be more accurate? As I understand it, If I tested negative for SNPs corresponding to M458, then wouldn't this be more conclusive than a STR level assessment? I mean a false negative is one thing, but a false negative for every branch under Z283? Something doesn't quite add up.

Ancient-Alien
10-18-2017, 03:19 AM
Thats the thing. If LivingDNA tests SNPs and not STRs, then wouldn't their assessment be more accurate? As I understand it, If I tested negative for SNPs corresponding to M458, then wouldn't this be more conclusive than a STR level assessment? I mean a false negative is one thing, but a false negative for every branch under Z283? Something doesn't quite add up.

I am not sure and i never seen living dna, can you show us what they exactly tell you about you Ydna and what data they let you see?

But you are right about your question. SNP test is always more precise and only snp can confirm str marker estimation. Just your markers clearly put you under M458 (where many people you match have already take snps and even BigY), and if that is not true and if all these people you match are false matches meaning its only by accident that markers mutated in similar way then as i stated, you are very isolated line.

Look here:

Вѣроватноћа = 100.00% уклапање = 57.04 Р1а М458 Срѣдња Европа
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 39.90 Р1а Z282 Европа
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 39.94 Р1а Z93 Евроазийска
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 33.58 Р1а Y2395 Западна и Сѣверна Европа
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 24.61 Р1а ЦТС4385 Западна Европа
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 25.29 Р2
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 16.38 Р1а Л1280 Млађовци
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 16.58 Р1а Y2613 Карпатско-далматински грозд
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 22.64 Ку М346>М3
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 16.32 Г2а2а - Л91
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 13.18 Ку М346>Z780
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 12.55 Р1б В88
Вѣроватноћа = 0.00% уклапање = 11.73 И2а1 Исл


Your fitness to M458 is almost the double then to anything else.
You dont have any modelar haplotype or variety that would somewhat nicely fit into your markers except M458, It means that you wont be connected to anything within a thousands of years if you are not M458.
And we used a 67 modal here which is not little.

Even tho snps have advantage when determining haplogroup, in this case it looks more likely that lab made a mistake then that all this matches under M458 are false matches along with your prediction.


I think its more likely that you are M458+ and that you are related to all people within M458+ within a 1000 - 4700 years.

M458 - formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybp

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M458/

Michał
10-18-2017, 08:59 AM
Thats the thing. If LivingDNA tests SNPs and not STRs, then wouldn't their assessment be more accurate? As I understand it, If I tested negative for SNPs corresponding to M458, then wouldn't this be more conclusive than a STR level assessment? I mean a false negative is one thing, but a false negative for every branch under Z283? Something doesn't quite add up.
What do you mean by "false negative for every branch under Z283"? In case you are member of clade CTS11962, then the only false negative result you got from LivingDNA is for M458. And we should also keep in mind that this could be a no-call rather than false negative. Is it possible to get access to the raw data from LivingDNA (like it is possible for Geno2 and other SNP chip-based tests)? This should allow you to distinguish between the false negative and no-call. Furthermore, there is also a possibility that you simply got a back mutation at M458. For example, I know at least one member of major branch Z280 who is actually negative for Z280 itself but positive for a series of mutations downstream of it, which means he got a back mutation at Z280. Such things are extremely rare, but we need to keep in mind that they happen from time to time.

10-18-2017, 09:05 AM
What do you mean by "false negative for every branch under Z283"? In case you are member of clade CTS11962, then the only false negative result you got from LivingDNA is for M458. And we should also keep in mind that this could be a no-call rather than false negative. Is it possible to get access to the raw data from LivingDNA (like it is possible for Geno2 and other SNP chip-based tests)? This should allow you to distinguish between the false negative and no-call. Furthermore, there is also a possibility that you simply got a back mutation at M458. For example, I know at least one member of major branch Z280 who is actually negative for Z280 itself but positive for a series of mutations downstream of it, which means he got a back mutation at Z280. Such things are extremely rare, but we need to keep in mind that they happen from time to time.

Michal,
I believe the LivingDNA data only contains positives, it does not list no calls, or negatives.

Michał
10-18-2017, 09:09 AM
He can always order M458 snp for 39$ upgrade if he feels its worth it and if he dont want to wait few more months for His super elite Y :D

I would wait with this until he checks his raw data at LivingDNA. In case this isn't a no-call, there is also a risk he got a back mutation at M458, so in such case it would be better to test another single mutation defining this branch. Also, you are right that this makes sense only if Dibran is inpatient and can afford spending extra $39 for a mutation that will be covered by his Y Elite test. Alternatively, he may order such a single mutation at YSEQ, where this is much less expensive ($18 only).

Michał
10-18-2017, 09:13 AM
Michal,
I believe the LivingDNA data only contains positives, it does not list no calls, or negatives.
I know, but in many companies that offer similar chip-based tests there is also a possibility to get the raw data file in which all SNPs tested are listed (and the exact result is shown). I have no experience with LivingDNA, but Dibran may contact them and ask about it.

alexfritz
10-18-2017, 11:24 AM
i also got a question;
i tested with Geno2.0NextGen(international kit) and than transferred my raw-date to FTDNA(genographic partnership) and at Genographic i am assigned to CTS11962 and in FTDNA i get further assigned to 'Your Confirmed Haplogroup is R-L1029' all based on positive SNPs M420+>M448+>M198+ etc. yet M417+ does not show up instead i have rs17316771+ is that equivalent? also there is no *(asterisk) i.e. not heterozygious; same with R1a1 i dont have + SRY1532.2/SRY10831.2, i have M448+ and rs2534636+, same question is rs2534636+ equivalent to SRY1532.2/SRY10831.2?

MacUalraig
10-18-2017, 11:43 AM
i also got a question;
i tested with Geno2.0NextGen(international kit) and than transferred my raw-date to FTDNA(genographic partnership) and at Genographic i am assigned to CTS11962 and in FTDNA i get further assigned to 'Your Confirmed Haplogroup is R-L1029' all based on positive SNPs M420+>M448+>M198+ etc. yet M417+ does not show up instead i have rs17316771+ is that equivalent? also there is no *(asterisk) i.e. not heterozygious; same with R1a1 i dont have + SRY1532.2/SRY10831.2, i have M448+ and rs2534636+, same question is rs2534636+ equivalent to SRY1532.2/SRY10831.2?

ybrowse.org is the place to go to answer questions like that - the answer is yes rs17316771=M417.

http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?

http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=chrY;start=19568371;end=19568371;name=M9; class=Sequence;feature_id=170847;db_id=chrY%3Adata base

If you are looking at raw data remember ybrowse is now using hg38 positions and your Geno file should still be on hg19.

Dibran
10-18-2017, 12:00 PM
I would wait with this until he checks his raw data at LivingDNA. In case this isn't a no-call, there is also a risk he got a back mutation at M458, so in such case it would be better to test another single mutation defining this branch. Also, you are right that this makes sense only if Dibran is inpatient and can afford spending extra $39 for a mutation that will be covered by his Y Elite test. Alternatively, he may order such a single mutation at YSEQ, where this is much less expensive ($18 only).

I emailed LivingDNA requesting a more comprehensive complete list of positive and negative SNPs. I doubt they will provide it though. In the site they provide a list of all positive SNPs for download. The negative list of SNPs they provided (including M458) is the same "sgdavies" posted a few pages earlier. Hence both our placement at Z283. I advised them it was for purposes of verifying their placement and that the predicted line on Ftdna differed. I guess we'll see if they provide anything. Though, assuming they are SNP based, I would imagine their assessment is possibly more accurate than STR assessment alone. I think I will wait for Yelite instead of upgrading anything. That test will be way more conclusive than anything. So it's just a matter of patience. Perhaps in the meantime LivingDNA can provide us with something that gives clues. Though I imagine being negative some SNPs on the line is pretty telling.

Trojet
10-18-2017, 12:12 PM
Your 67 STRs are ready, and it seems almost certain that you belong to clade CTS11962 within the large "Slavic" branch M458. More specifically, you are quite likely to belong to subclade YP515, a brother clade for a much more common subclade L1029 under CTS11962, although this needs to be confirmed by further testing (like your Y Elite test).


1500-2400 years is not that conclusive though. I still have no official matches at Y67 level. I imagine that is a personal analysis? Otherwise its not updated for me.

An Albanian from Western Macedonia (which is not far from where Dibran is from) received his YSEQ Alpha-Beta (Y-DNA37) results last night and joined our project. He has 6 differences out of 37 with Dibran. He is predicted R1a-M458 also and I think most definitely they are part of the same cluster. Here is his STRs:
13 25 16 10 11-14 12 12 11 12 11 28 16 9-9-10 11 11 23 14 20 34 12-12-14-15-15-16 10 11 19-23 16 16 17 19 34-34-40 14 11

Dibran
10-18-2017, 12:17 PM
An Albanian from Western Macedonia (which is not far from where Dibran is from) received his YSEQ Alpha-Beta (Y-DNA37) results last night and joined our project. He has 6 differences out of 37 with Dibran. He is predicted R1a-M458 also. Here is his STRs: 13 25 16 10 11-14 12 12 11 12 11 28 16 9-9-10 11 23 14 20 34 12-12-14-15-15-16 10 11 19-23 16 16 17 19 34-34-40 14 11

What does that mean that hes a closer recent match? Is YSEQ STR based? I imagine its not certain yet, Just waiting on livingDNA to provide a comprehensive list. But If I did get negative(and not no calls) on M458 then Idk what to make of it. January is right around the corner though.

Trojet
10-18-2017, 12:21 PM
What does that mean that hes a closer recent match? Is YSEQ STR based? I imagine its not certain yet, Just waiting on livingDNA to provide a comprehensive list. But If I did get negative(and not no calls) on M458 then Idk what to make of it. January is right around the corner though.

Yes, I think it's quite likely he is related to you, or at least part of the same cluster. From what I could see, he is your closest 37 marker match also, I don't think it's a coincidence. And yes, YSEQ does test STRs like FTDNA. You may compare your STRs with him.

Pribislav
10-18-2017, 12:27 PM
Edit: The picture got automatically resized and blurry, so I split it in two.

Dibran's 10 closest matches according to Nevgen:

19351

19352

Dibran
10-18-2017, 12:28 PM
Yes, I think it's quite likely he is related to you. From what I could see, he is your closest 37 marker match also, I don't think it's a coincidence. And yes, YSEQ does test STRs like FTDNA. You may compare your STRs with him.

I can't see him in the project or my matches list? I am quite a laymen in understand this number sequences, so forgive me. We know our clan split into a few lines, one of which went into Macedonia. Elez Koci who died in the early 1900s is also a cousin of our line. How far back is the suspected common ancestor between me and him? does he list his surname?

Trojet
10-18-2017, 12:35 PM
I can't see him in the project or my matches list? I am quite a laymen in understand this number sequences, so forgive me. We know our clan split into a few lines, one of which went into Macedonia. Elez Koci who died in the early 1900s is also a cousin of our line. How far back is the suspected common ancestor between me and him? does he list his surname?

His surname is different from yours. He won't appear at Ftdna project or database, since he is tested with YSEQ. All our results are in the Google sheet. I think a close relationship can be ruled out based on the differences.

Dibran
10-18-2017, 12:40 PM
His surname is different from yours. He won't appear at Ftdna project or database, since he is tested with YSEQ. All our results are in the Google sheet. I think a close relationship can be ruled out based on the differences.

I see, so how far would you suggest the break was? too far to be relevant?

Michał
10-18-2017, 12:55 PM
I emailed LivingDNA requesting a more comprehensive complete list of positive and negative SNPs. I doubt they will provide it though. In the site they provide a list of all positive SNPs for download. The negative list of SNPs they provided (including M458) is the same "sgdavies" posted a few pages earlier. Hence both our placement at Z283. I advised them it was for purposes of verifying their placement and that the predicted line on Ftdna differed. I guess we'll see if they provide anything.
In case they don't send you any raw data file, I would ask them specifically about your M458 result, ie. whether they consider this particular result to be informative in your case (ie. negative rather than no-call).



Though, assuming they are SNP based, I would imagine their assessment is possibly more accurate than STR assessment alone.

Well, this depends. SNPs are indeed much more reliable but only if using Sanger sequencing or NGS. For SNP chips (and some other technologies, like that used for SNP packs at FTDNA), there is a significant risk of getting an unreported no-call or a false positive/negative result. Also, in each case a single SNP result is strongly contradicted by the relatively long STR haplotype, I would rather trust those STR reults, mostly because such a single SNP result may always be a result of a back/recurrent mutation (or just a lab error), not to mention all those no-calls that are quite common in certain types of SNP-based tests.


I think I will wait for Yelite instead of upgrading anything. That test will be way more conclusive than anything. So it's just a matter of patience. Perhaps in the meantime LivingDNA can provide us with something that gives clues.
I think this is a good decision.

Dibran
10-18-2017, 01:00 PM
In case they don't send you any raw data file, I would ask them specifically about your M458 result, ie. whether they consider this particular result to be informative in your case (ie. negative rather than no-call).



Well, this depends. SNPs are indeed much more reliable but only if using Sanger sequencing or NGS. For SNP chips (and some other technologies, like that used for SNP packs at FTDNA), there is a significant risk of getting an unreported no-call or a false positive/negative result. Also, in each case a single SNP result is strongly contradicted by the relatively long STR haplotype, I would rather trust those STR reults, mostly because such a single SNP result may always be a result of a back/recurrent mutation (or just a lab error), no to mention those no-calls that are quite common in certain types of SNP-based tests.


I think this is a good decision.

Forgive me if I am not familiar, but what is a "back mutation". Additionally, I did mention what you stated regarding M458 specifically. I stated that I was predicted positive when LivingDNA placed me as negative. I asked them(in the even they cant provide a full file of SNPs) to confirm whether M458 was a no call or negative. I mentioned the bit about back mutation too. Though I imagine with laymen for customer service I probably won't get anywhere. Hopefully they take care when responding to the inquiry.

Michał
10-18-2017, 01:14 PM
An Albanian from Western Macedonia (which is not far from where Dibran is from) received his YSEQ Alpha-Beta (Y-DNA37) results last night and joined our project. He has 6 differences out of 37 with Dibran. He is predicted R1a-M458 also and I think most definitely they are part of the same cluster. Here is his STRs:
13 25 16 10 11-14 12 12 11 12 11 28 16 9-9-10 11 11 23 14 20 34 12-12-14-15-15-16 10 11 19-23 16 16 17 19 34-34-40 14 11
This is a great finding. The presence of of a relatively rare DYS389I=12 result (especially when accompanied by DYS460=10 and DYS464c=14) plus his known Albanian ancestry make him indeed a very good candidate for a member of a shared subclade under CTS11962 (or under YP515?). GD=6 at 37 STRs indicates a common ancestor living more than 1000 years ago (although this would be within a relatively large margin of error, something like 500-1800), so this is not a close relationship, yet it seems to favor the Slavic (rather than Gothic>Italian) scenario.

I guess he is unlikely to order any NGS test, so once Dibran knows his private SNPs under CTS11962 (or under YP515/L1029), the other Albanian should be encouraged to order at least some of them at YSEQ, as this may reveal a series of new shared SNPs that define this hypothetical Albanian subclade. On the other hand, NGS (Big Y or Y Elite) would be a much better choice, so it is worth considering some kind of collective funding.

Trojet
10-18-2017, 01:19 PM
This is a great finding. The presence of of a relatively rare DYS389I=12 result (especially when accompanied by DYS460=10 and DYS464c=14) plus his known Albanian ancestry make him indeed a very good candidate for a member of a shared subclade under CTS11962 (or under YP515?). GD=6 at 37 STRs indicates a common ancestor living more than 1000 years ago (although this would be within a relatively large margin of error, something like 500-1800), so this is not a close relationship, yet it seems to favor the Slavic (rather than Gothic>Italian) scenario.

I guess he is unlikely to order any NGS test, so once Dibran knows his private SNPs under CTS11962 (or under YP515/L1029), the other Albanian should be encouraged to order at least some of them at YSEQ, as this may reveal a series of new shared SNPs that define this hypothetical Albanian subclade. On the other hand, NGS (Big Y or Y Elite) would be a much better choice, so it is worth considering some kind of collective funding.

This is exactly what I was thinking also ;)

Once Dibran received his Y-Elite, I'm pretty sure we can investigate this for a better precision. As we know YSEQ is the best in the business when it comes to single SNPs. So when Dibran gets his Y-Elite results, we'll request Dibrans most terminal SNP at YSEQ if they don't already have it, and order it for the other member, which would cost only $18 to confirm terminal placement. As you suggested, he can even be tested for Dibrans Private SNPs ($18 each), to find out when the split happened, and define this "Albanian subclade".

Michał
10-18-2017, 01:31 PM
Forgive me if I am not familiar, but what is a "back mutation".
For example, we both are R1a, so we should share a large number of mutations upstream of Z283, but there is a risk that some of those mutations reverted back to the original (ie. ancestral) allele (variant) in one of us, and this is called a back mutation. In fact, nearly all R1a members (and more specifically all R1a-M459 members) share a back mutation at SRY10831, which means we lack an original mutation that arose in one of our much more distant ancestors, while people from related haplogroups, including R1b and R2, are still SRY10831+. This back mutation is frequently named SRY10831.2, although this name is quite confusing (as it suggests the same mutation arising in distantly related haplogroup), therefore SRY10831! would be more appropriate.

Dibran
10-18-2017, 01:33 PM
This is exactly what I was thinking also ;)

Once Dibran received his Y-Elite, I'm pretty sure we can investigate this for a better precision. As we know YSEQ is the best in the business when it comes to single SNPs. So when Dibran gets his Y-Elite results, we'll request Dibrans most terminal SNP at YSEQ if they don't already have it, and order it for the other member, which would cost only $18 to confirm terminal placement. As you suggested, he can even be tested for Dibrans Private SNPs ($18 each), to find out when the split happened, and define this "Albanian subclade".

Pending Y-Elite there is still no guarantee of my placement. Also, the fact that I have no recent matches in history doesn't negate the scenario from Italy to Albania. Ideally this would be confirmed by testing a Pershpalaj(the name we originally bore), but none of the members of that family agreed. When asking an Albanian from Orosh, he said its well known their forefather was hired by Skanderbeg from Italy, and this is partially why they may be disagreeing with testing, if it confirms the story. In order for this to be the case there should be a TMRCA between 4-600 between us and them(roughly 600 years ago they arrive, supposedly splitting up with us migrating to Diber). But, alas, even when offering to pay they refused. I am also still waiting on LivingDNA to either provide an extensive list of the tested SNPs or a confirmation of M458 being either a no call/negative call/ or back mutation. So I will update this section here once I have that.

Michał
10-18-2017, 01:42 PM
I am also still waiting on LivingDNA to either provide an extensive list of the tested SNPs or a confirmation of M458 being either a no call/negative call/ or back mutation.
They should be able to distinguish between a no call and negative result, but it won't be possible to discriminate between a false negative result and a back mutation in this particular case. For this, you will need to wait for your Y Elite results (or, alternatively, for your YSEQ tests).

Dibran
10-18-2017, 01:47 PM
They should be able to distinguish between a no call and negative result, but it won't be possible to discriminate between a false negative result and a back mutation in this particular case. For this, you will need to wait for your Y Elite results (or, alternatively, for your YSEQ tests).

As I suspected, basic customer service can't provide an answer. This is their response.

"Thank you for getting in touch with Living DNA.

The complicated nature of your query means we are not able to support this from our Help Desk. So that we can get you and answer we have asked our Bioinformatics & Development team to help investigate and get a response for you.

We always aim to work with the Bioinformatics team to get these types of queries responded to as quickly as possible but, due the their complicated nature and the existing work loads for the team we ask that you allow up to 30 working days for us to return to you with a response."

Trojet
10-18-2017, 01:55 PM
As I suspected, basic customer service can't provide an answer. This is their response.

"Thank you for getting in touch with Living DNA.

The complicated nature of your query means we are not able to support this from our Help Desk. So that we can get you and answer we have asked our Bioinformatics & Development team to help investigate and get a response for you.

We always aim to work with the Bioinformatics team to get these types of queries responded to as quickly as possible but, due the their complicated nature and the existing work loads for the team we ask that you allow up to 30 working days for us to return to you with a response."

This is the reason why we suggest Albanians test at FTDNA or YSEQ, and contribute to our project at the same time
And we appreciate having you on board, since you decided to test at FTDNA.

Also, 23andMe recently updated their chip from V4 to V5. In the new version they are supposed to test some limited SNPs downstream J2b2-M241, like L283, Z1296, Z1297, Z631. So I asked someone to send me his 23andMe V5 raw data. Upon checking it, he was L283+ Z1296 no call, Z1297 no call, and Z631 negative. So IMO, these companies like 23andMe, LivingDNA are still next to useless regarding Y-DNA research.

Dibran
10-18-2017, 02:06 PM
This is the reason why we suggest Albanians test at FTDNA or YSEQ, and contribute to our project at the same time
And we appreciate having you on board, since you decided to test at FTDNA.

Also, 23andMe recently updated their chip from V4 to V5. In the new version they are supposed to test some limited SNPs downstream J2b2-M241, like L283, Z1296, Z1297, Z631. So I asked someone to send me his 23andMe V5 raw data. Upon checking it, he was L283+ Z1296 no call, Z1297 no call, and Z631 negative. So IMO, these companies like 23andMe, LivingDNA are still next to useless regarding Y-DNA research.

Well there is no guarantee as of yet. So I suppose its the waiting game until then. This Albanian from Macedonia what was his surname? I want to see if I am familiar with it, through marriage and what not.

Regardless, the last 400 years on record we were clearly Albanian. So I imagine since most of these matches theoretically are between 35-80 generations, that the break happened sometime during the first wave of the great migration, or a late middle ages byzantine slav that may have assimilated in Southern Albania somewhere. Assuming the Italy connection is ruled out(which there is nothing to suggest it is just yet), then there is a possible connection to Nikol Koci of West Macedonia(whom descended from Epirus according to record). They were believed to be a Arvanito-Vlach clan with some Greek as well.

If the connection is to him then I imagine a Byzantine Invading Slavic tribe that changed hands to greek vlach Albanian or any order of that is possible. The only Koci outside our own in Diber, are the Koci of Epirus, the descendant of which(Vasil Lupu) became prince of Moldova for 19 years. I also match Polocosers in Molodova, who are supposed descendants by marriage, of the daughter of Vasil Lupu. So the fact I share DNA may be a clue if I really am M458.

Dibran
10-18-2017, 02:20 PM
This is a great finding. The presence of of a relatively rare DYS389I=12 result (especially when accompanied by DYS460=10 and DYS464c=14) plus his known Albanian ancestry make him indeed a very good candidate for a member of a shared subclade under CTS11962 (or under YP515?). GD=6 at 37 STRs indicates a common ancestor living more than 1000 years ago (although this would be within a relatively large margin of error, something like 500-1800), so this is not a close relationship, yet it seems to favor the Slavic (rather than Gothic>Italian) scenario.

I guess he is unlikely to order any NGS test, so once Dibran knows his private SNPs under CTS11962 (or under YP515/L1029), the other Albanian should be encouraged to order at least some of them at YSEQ, as this may reveal a series of new shared SNPs that define this hypothetical Albanian subclade. On the other hand, NGS (Big Y or Y Elite) would be a much better choice, so it is worth considering some kind of collective funding.

Assuming that margin of error is within the 500 range, it makes the scenario of out of Italy more likely no? Supposedly mid 1400s is when the Condottieri was hired from Italy, which is roughly 550-600 years ago. Which falls within that possible margin of error. Otherwise, the Kocis of Epirus may be a closer ancestral match.

Do we know of anyone today who is a descendant of Vasil Lupu Koci? His son who succeeded him took the last name Lupu, and dropped Koci/Coci. If there is a paper trail for living descendants(given Lupu was a type of royalty) is there any way we can check this? The Polocosers supposedly descend from a man who took the daughter of Lupu as his wife. I match the Polocoser in Moldovia too.

Dibran
10-19-2017, 04:22 PM
They should be able to distinguish between a no call and negative result, but it won't be possible to discriminate between a false negative result and a back mutation in this particular case. For this, you will need to wait for your Y Elite results (or, alternatively, for your YSEQ tests).

So livingdna was actually timely from their Bioinformics department. It appears M458 is a no-call,.

19363

Ancient-Alien
10-19-2017, 04:28 PM
Assuming that margin of error is within the 500 range, it makes the scenario of out of Italy more likely no? Supposedly mid 1400s is when the Condottieri was hired from Italy, which is roughly 550-600 years ago. Which falls within that possible margin of error. Otherwise, the Kocis of Epirus may be a closer ancestral match.

Do we know of anyone today who is a descendant of Vasil Lupu Koci? His son who succeeded him took the last name Lupu, and dropped Koci/Coci. If there is a paper trail for living descendants(given Lupu was a type of royalty) is there any way we can check this? The Polocosers supposedly descend from a man who took the daughter of Lupu as his wife. I match the Polocoser in Moldovia too.


He would have to take 67 markers for more detailed compare, on 37 markers compare you guys are estimated around 1000 years one from another.
As Trojet said, most likely same group as you and for sure your closest relative so far.

Ancient-Alien
10-19-2017, 04:29 PM
So livingdna was actually timely from their Bioinformics department. It appears M458 is a no-call,.

19363

very nice that they send you this.

What does no call means? like no result/feedback?

Dibran
10-19-2017, 04:36 PM
What does no call means? like no result/feedback?

I think a no call is when they can't find if its actually negative or not. So it could mean that I just belong to a rare clade that can be dubbed "Albanian" with me and this Albanian from Gostivar being the closest match. Assuming rare clades under the branch would produce a no call. So there is a chance I am or am not M458. I wish they clarified that the first time when I asked for the negative clades.

Ancient-Alien
10-19-2017, 04:41 PM
I think a no call is when they can't find if its actually negative or not. So it could mean that I just belong to a rare clade that can be dubbed "Albanian" with me and this Albanian from Gostivar being the closest match. Assuming rare clades under the branch would produce a no call. So there is a chance I am or am not M458. I wish they clarified that the first time when I asked for the negative clades.

seems like they didnt test Z282 at all and on M458 they got no call so thats why they predicted you Z283.
Waiting for admins to confirm.

Yes i agree with you, who knows what is the reason why they got no call on M458, its still puzzling at least its not negative which even more confirms our theory , it should have been positive on M458, we were not asking for clades down the M458 but for M458 specific snp.

Ancient-Alien
10-19-2017, 04:54 PM
They also got no call on CTS11962 which should have been positive i think. Also they got negative on L260, that is correct i think.
lets wait admins, there is enough data to work on it. You should have opened your own thread with your results, maybe you still can and ask admins to move posts there if you wish.

However,, very interesting

Dibran
10-19-2017, 05:12 PM
They also got no call on CTS11962 which should have been positive i think. Also they got negative on L260, that is correct i think.
lets wait admins, there is enough data to work on it. You should have opened your own thread with your results, maybe you still can and ask admins to move posts there if you wish.

However,, very interesting

I was planning on it, but I got quoted in here so I continued the thread lol. Yea, Yelite will confirm where my placement should be. I don't know too much about no-calls other than its not a negative or a positive lol.

Ancient-Alien
10-19-2017, 05:25 PM
I was planning on it, but I got quoted in here so I continued the thread lol. Yea, Yelite will confirm where my placement should be. I don't know too much about no-calls other than its not a negative or a positive lol.

As i see it they got two no calls where they should perhaps been positives so M458 and CTS11962, while they didnt test Z282 where you should have also been positive and they tested you negative for L260.


You can search for these names on phylogenetc tree and see where they stand one from another.. along with R-YP515 where you have been predicted by strs.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/r1a/


Im sure that someone with better R1a knowledge will tell us more, like these guys that were replying to you earlier.

Dibran
10-19-2017, 05:30 PM
As i see it they got two no calls where they should perhaps been positives so M458 and CTS11962, while they didnt test Z282 where you should have also been positive and they tested you negative for L260.


You can search for these names on phylogenetc tree and see where they stand one from another.. along with R-YP515 where you have been predicted by strs.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/r1a/


Im sure that someone with better R1a knowledge will tell us more, like these guys that were replying to you earlier.

Well it depends. The only likely scenario I think is either I belong to a rare clade under M458 since I have no matches(considering the Albanian from Gostivar is only one matching). The other scenario is no/call is really negative or back mutation(which they can't predict). So its either a rare branch or not M458 at all. I am sure Michal will chime in if I am incorrect in my assessment.

Trojet
10-19-2017, 05:36 PM
So livingdna was actually timely from their Bioinformics department. It appears M458 is a no-call,.

19363

No call basically means they tried testing them, but didn't get a positive or a negative result, so unknown.

At this point we have to trust your STRs. Based on your STRs, you are R1a-M458>CTS11962. Pending confirmation from your Y-Elite.

Ancient-Alien
10-19-2017, 05:37 PM
Well it depends. The only likely scenario I think is either I belong to a rare clade under M458 since I have no matches(considering the Albanian from Gostivar is only one matching). The other scenario is no/call is really negative or back mutation(which they can't predict). So its either a rare branch or not M458 at all. I am sure Michal will chime in if I am incorrect in my assessment.

You do have matches just you dont have them displayed under FTDNA matches, you match plenty of people on GD 13-15/67 where everyone of them is in M458 but not all are the same subclade.

If you are positive to M458 you can safely assume that you match everyone under M458 no matter the clade within a distance of 1000 years (your closest relative) to 4700 years (Age of entire M458).


If you are negative for M458, then we can assume you perhaps dont have matches, but even then this Albanian match from Gostivar might stay in your rare group and you will still have him.

Trojet
10-19-2017, 05:46 PM
So livingdna was actually timely from their Bioinformics department. It appears M458 is a no-call,.

19363


No call basically means they tried testing them, but didn't get a positive or a negative result, so unknown.

At this point we have to trust your STRs. Based on your STRs, you are R1a-M458>CTS11962. Pending confirmation from your Y-Elite.

Initially LivingDNA told you you have tested negative for M458 and Z280. As it turns out M458 is no call or unknown, while Z280 I don't even see that they tested. Pretty lame by them if you ask me...

Dibran
10-19-2017, 05:46 PM
You do have matches just you dont have them displayed under FTDNA matches, you match plenty of people on GD 13-15/67 where everyone of them is in M458 but not all are the same subclade.

If you are positive to M458 you can safely assume that you match everyone under M458 no matter the clade within a distance of 1000 years (your closest relative) to 4700 years (Age of entire M458).


If you are negative for M458, then we can assume you perhaps dont have matches, but even then this Albanian match from Gostivar might stay in your rare group and you will still have him.

The only significant match is the Albanian from Gostivar. Even then it is still extremely far(1000 plus years). The rest are between 30-80 generations which is inconclusive. There is also probability its a back mutation which would give the false read, and with all the unsupported clades, either a rare M458 clade or not M458 at all. I was hoping they gave a full list including other branches to have a comparison. If I have no calls on other branches then it would be more of a mystery. I emailed LivingDNA again requesting complete negative and no calls, not just m458.

Dibran
10-19-2017, 05:48 PM
Initially LivingDNA told you you have tested negative for M458 and Z280. As it turns out M458 is no call or unknown, while Z280 I don't even see that they tested.

They did, they just didn't provide the full list. All they did was look at M458 since I specifically mentioned it, and didn't include anything else. I emailed them again requesting a complete list of negatives and no-calls. In this way if they are all negative, then either m458 is a rare branch, or back mutation/negative. However, If I have no-calls on other branches, then it would be more of a mystery. lol

Trojet
10-19-2017, 06:08 PM
They did, they just didn't provide the full list. All they did was look at M458 since I specifically mentioned it, and didn't include anything else. I emailed them again requesting a complete list of negatives and no-calls. In this way if they are all negative, then either m458 is a rare branch, or back mutation/negative. However, If I have no-calls on other branches, then it would be more of a mystery. lol

I don't think it's a mystery anymore, now that we know M458 is actually a no call instead of negative, so there is no contradiction between your STR prediction (R1a-M458>CTS11962) and SNP testing from LivingDNA anymore ;)

LivingDNA is SNP-chip based testing that tests a pre-programmed limited amount of SNPs. They will run the sample and report whatever calls they got. They will not bother to run it again if they got no call/unknown on certain Y-SNPs that their chip was supposed to test.

Ancient-Alien
10-19-2017, 06:10 PM
The only significant match is the Albanian from Gostivar. Even then it is still extremely far(1000 plus years). The rest are between 30-80 generations which is inconclusive. There is also probability its a back mutation which would give the false read, and with all the unsupported clades, either a rare M458 clade or not M458 at all. I was hoping they gave a full list including other branches to have a comparison. If I have no calls on other branches then it would be more of a mystery. I emailed LivingDNA again requesting complete negative and no calls, not just m458.

Every match is significant ;)

Your newly spawned match from Gostivar is about 35 generations lets say 1000 years, then there is another on 50 generations and one more at 80 in R1a project.

There are clades under the M458 that are formed before 1500-2000 years, so naturally that matches over 50 or 80 generations wont be the same clade as you. But they will still be matches within a M458 and within a 4700 or less years of distance to common ancestor.


Regarding living DNA, as i stated looks like they got no result at all at two SNPs where you should have been positive and one of them they didnt test.

Only one that they are sure that you are negative is L260.



By this we can see that thier result was inconclusive giving that they didnt get Negative neither Positive on the things that markers obviously show you positive to.
Your distance to these matches should be greater then 4700 years which would put you out of M458. While you match Chechen on 2000 years and Polak on 1500 years its obvious you are somewhere around them under M458 but Y-super-elite will most likely form a new branch for you somewhere near them and it will be classified as new Albanian branch of R1a. But they will still be your relatives :)

Dibran
10-19-2017, 06:33 PM
Every match is significant ;)

Your newly spawned match from Gostivar is about 35 generations lets say 1000 years, then there is another on 50 generations and one more at 80 in R1a project.

There are clades under the M458 that are formed before 1500-2000 years, so naturally that matches over 50 or 80 generations wont be the same clade as you. But they will still be matches within a M458 and within a 4700 or less years of distance to common ancestor.


Regarding living DNA, as i stated looks like they got no result at all at two SNPs where you should have been positive and one of them they didnt test.

Only one that they are sure that you are negative is L260.



By this we can see that thier result was inconclusive giving that they didnt get Negative neither Positive on the things that markers obviously show you positive to.
Your distance to these matches should be greater then 4700 years which would put you out of M458. While you match Chechen on 2000 years and Polak on 1500 years its obvious you are somewhere around them under M458 but Y-super-elite will most likely form a new branch for you somewhere near them and it will be classified as new Albanian branch of R1a. But they will still be your relatives :)

I know they are still relatives in an ancestral sense. What I mean is none of them are close. Other than the Albanian from Gostivar(who is still pretty far). Can't wait for Yelite already. lol.

I am hoping to get some recent 500 year ago matches, as I try and dissect oral history narrative, connecting the dots using genetics as much as possible.

If only I could find a Pershpalaj who would test. If they belonged to my branch it would most probably confirm the migration. Or I imagine since we left to Diber from Mirdita, they would have a slightly older branch than mine? Assuming generational mutations branched us off from them.

Trojet
10-19-2017, 06:44 PM
If only I could find a Pershpalaj who would test. If they belonged to my branch it would most probably confirm the migration. Or I imagine since we left to Diber from Mirdita, they would have a slightly older branch than mine? Assuming generational mutations branched us off from them.

All you have to do is find a Pershpalaj and test them with Y-DNA37 from FTDNA or YSEQ Alpha-Beta. If the oral tradition is true, they will match you anywhere from 32/37 to 37/37 markers (GD 0-5 on 37 markers).

Ancient-Alien
10-19-2017, 06:45 PM
I know they are still relatives in an ancestral sense. What I mean is none of them are close. Other than the Albanian from Gostivar(who is still pretty far). Can't wait for Yelite already. lol.

I am hoping to get some recent 500 year ago matches, as I try and dissect oral history narrative, connecting the dots using genetics as much as possible.

If only I could find a Pershpalaj who would test. If they belonged to my branch it would most probably confirm the migration. Or I imagine since we left to Diber from Mirdita, they would have a slightly older branch than mine? Assuming generational mutations branched us off from them.


Yes, to confirm that oral story and connect yourself to perhaps another family, there would have to be that another family tested and your distance should be much closer to them.
None of the people that have tested so far that we know of match you closer then that Albanian from Gostivar and he matches you at about 1000 years with low certainty because of only 37 markers compared.

Dibran
10-19-2017, 06:53 PM
All you have to do is find a Pershpalaj and test them with Y-DNA37 from FTDNA or YSEQ Alpha-Beta. If the oral tradition is true, they will match you anywhere from 32/37 to 37/37 markers (GD 0-5 on 37 markers).

I actually found a few, all of which denied(even when I offered to pay). I spoke to a man from Orosh, who claims the oral history of their region says the Pershpalaj were originated from a Condottieri hired from Italy by Skanderbeg named Pal/Paul. He claims they know this oral history well, and that they probably denied my offer because they don't want it to be true? lol Idk. Maybe its because I am a random dude asking for their DNA lol.

Though my father did mention per oral history that we had a lot of issues in Mirdita, blood feuds and the like, and for some reason or other, 3 of the Pershpalaj brothers went to Diber.

Even when speaking to some of the Pershpalaj, they say they don't know much of their family history as their father/fathers mentioned leaving because things were really bad there.

Skerdilaidas
10-19-2017, 07:21 PM
Regarding Preshpalaj of Orosh, from the literature that I have come across on the net I have concluded that they're actually Kalaj of Kthjelle e Eperme, and came to Orosh as 'nipa' bije (nephews).

Dibran
10-19-2017, 07:27 PM
Regarding Preshpalaj of Orosh, from the literature that I have come across on the net they're actually Kalaj of Kthjelle e Eperme, and came to Orosh as 'nipa' bije (nephews).

Interesting. Interesting indeed. two conflicting cases. Could you site the link about the Pershpalaj? I would very much like to read it. Wait bije Pershpalaj? or bije Kalaj? Where is Kthjelle e Eperme? Born in the states so I really only know about Diber and Puk area lol.

Michał
10-19-2017, 08:57 PM
I think a no call is when they can't find if its actually negative or not.
This is correct, but to really know what no-call means in this case, one needs to know how the SNP chips work. To determine whether a customer is negative or positive for a given SNP, one needs to design a short oligonucleotide sequence (or a "probe") that is complementary to a DNA sequence encompassing a given mutation. A similar oligonucleotide probe is also designed for a non-mutated (ancestral) sequence, so under specific conditions these two probes should recognize/detect a mutated (derived) or non-mutated (ancestral) allele/variant, respectively. By comparing a signal obtained for a "mutated probe" with that for a "non-mutated probe", one should easily determine which signal is significantly stronger, ie. which variant (mutated or non-mutated) is present in the analyzed sample. However, in some cases both signals are nearly equally strong (or equally weak, as this is a matter of relative strength rather than absolute signal intensity), which resembles the so-called heterozygous signal for autosomal loci (sites), ie. when both mutated and non-mutated alleles are present. Of course, such heterozygous result is something absolutely normal for autosomes, but this shouldn't happen for the non-recombining region of chromosome Y, where only one allele should be present. The most common reason for such no-calls is that the probes are poorly designed, so they are unable to discriminate between the mutated and non-mutated target sequence (when used under given conditions), so nearly all people get no-calls when tested for this mutation. However, it is also possible that negative results are called correctly, but the signal produced by the "mutated probe" is not strong enough, so instead of a positive result, we see the no-call results being consistently produced when the mutation is present. It is hard to say whether the latter is true in your specific case - we would need to know whether anyone was tested M458+ or CTS11962+ at LivingDNA and whether the non-M458 people are getting true negative results (rather than no-calls).

Skerdilaidas
10-19-2017, 08:58 PM
Interesting. Interesting indeed. two conflicting cases. Could you site the link about the Pershpalaj? I would very much like to read it. Wait bije Pershpalaj? or bije Kalaj? Where is Kthjelle e Eperme? Born in the states so I really only know about Diber and Puk area lol.

No problem bro, Kthelle is in Mirdite as well and I seem to have mixed them up with Vathaj who are actually nipa bije. Mark Tirta wrote about them, and he only says that Preshpalaj of Spaē (not Orosh) are with origin from Kalaj of Kthelle:

Kėshtu, gjinia Pėrshpalaj e Spaēit e kanė prejardhjen nga Vllaznia Kalaj e Kthellės sė Epėr, natyrisht njė shpėrngulje e ngjarė nė njė kohė tė herėshme, ndoshta dhe 200 e mė tepėr vjet. Vāthajt, tė mbėshtetur, tė mbathur me fisin Bibaj nė Spaē, e kanė prejardhjen nga Fregni i Dibrrit. Vāthi ka ardhė e ėshtė ngulur nė Spaē si "nip" bije, nip nga njė bijė. Shkaku i shpėrnguljes ėshtė se ka mbetur pa prindėr e nėn rrezikun e gjakmarrjes, e ka marrė daja i tij pėr ta ruajtur nga vrasja. I kishin vėnė vėthin nė vesh me qėllim qė, sipas besimeve popullore, kėshtu nuk do ta kapė pushka, pra pėr ta ruajtur nga vrasja. Kėshtu i mbeti mbiemri Vāthi e sot ėshtė njė gjini e tėrė me banim nė Spaē, mbėshtetur nė farefisin Bibaj (P. Gjika, Gjurm., f. 63). Dedajt e Oroshit qė mbahen si gjini, si derė e madhe, si krenė tė kryeherėshme nė kėtė Dhe, ka disa degė tė mbėshtetura me tė si Lalajt, Rrehnakėt e me radhė, pra tė ardhur nė kėtė vend. Njė degė e Lalajve (Dedaj) tė Oroshit ėshtė shpėrngulur dikur e ngulur nė Velėn e Vendit nė Dheun e Malėsisė sė Lezhės (brėnda Mirditės).

http://mirdita.com/forum/arti-e-kultura/historia/755-mirdita-e-mo%C3%A7me-e-migrime-t%C3%AB-popullsis%C3%AB-s%C3%AB-saj

Skerdilaidas
10-19-2017, 09:16 PM
As far as Kalaj are concerned, there doesn't seem to be such a fis in Kthelle (http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=380.0) today. Perhaps they moved out and only part of them settled Spaē while the rest went to other regions. Such a fis exists in Grude, Montenegro today however, and they have tested but are R1b P311(tested at 23andme).

Dibran
10-19-2017, 09:34 PM
As far as Kalaj are concerned, there doesn't seem to be such a fis in Kthelle (http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=380.0) today. Perhaps they moved out and only part of them settled Spaē while the rest went to other regions. Such a fis exists in Grude, Montenegro today however, and they have tested but are R1b P311(tested at 23andme).

Interesting. So do we know for sure this Kalaj in Grude is the same line from Kthelle? Assuming they are, then the Pershpalaj in Spac would have to be R1b P311 right? If this is the case, and the literature is true to their origin, then I would imagine it was through a woman who married into the Koci that the stories of the family would enter our own?

Michał
10-19-2017, 09:59 PM
I am hoping to get some recent 500 year ago matches, as I try and dissect oral history narrative, connecting the dots using genetics as much as possible.

Getting 500 year ago matches won't be easy, especially for someone from Albania, a strongly undertested country. Yo will either need to have a good luck or test some potential distant relatives.

I have tested my Polish relatives from four different Y-DNA lineages, and if not counting some previously known cousins, I have never got any such close match. Instead, those closest SNP/STR matches are for 800 (R1a-FGC19267), 1100 (R1a-YP517), 1350 (E1b-A6295) and 2500 (R1b-S3199) years ago. The 1100 years match is for a lineage of my maternal uncle who is CTS11962>L1029>YP416>YP517, so he belongs to a quite specific subclade under CTS11962, yet he has no 37 and 67 matches reported by FTDNA (if not counting a known cousin), and at 25 STRs he has only 3 matches, all with GD=2 and not tested for any relevant SNPs under M458. Importantly, those three 25 STR matches do not include his closest SNP match (who was tested with Big Y, just like my uncle), and he shows GD=24 at 111 STRs, GD=14 at 67 STRs, GD=10 at 27 STRs, GD=6 at 25 STRs and GD=2 at 12 STRs. Actually, my uncle has some closer STR matches (GD=20 at 111 STRs, GD=12 at 67 STRs and GD=7 at 37 STRs, GD=2 at 25 STRs and GD=0 at 12 STRs) but there is nothing in their STR haplotypes that would suggest a more closely relationship (ie. they don't share any rare STR patterns).

Dibran
10-19-2017, 11:28 PM
Getting 500 year ago matches won't be easy, especially for someone from Albania, a strongly undertested country. Yo will either need to have a good luck or test some potential distant relatives.

I have tested my Polish relatives from four different Y-DNA lineages, and if not counting some previously known cousins, I have never got any such close match. Instead, those closest SNP/STR matches are for 800 (R1a-FGC19267), 1100 (R1a-YP517), 1350 (E1b-A6295) and 2500 (R1b-S3199) years ago. The 1100 years match is for a lineage of my maternal uncle who is CTS11962>L1029>YP416>YP517, so he belongs to a quite specific subclade under CTS11962, yet he has no 37 and 67 matches reported by FTDNA (if not counting a known cousin), and at 25 STRs he has only 3 matches, all with GD=2 and not tested for any relevant SNPs under M458. Importantly, those three 25 STR matches do not include his closest SNP match (who was tested with Big Y, just like my uncle), and he shows GD=24 at 111 STRs, GD=14 at 67 STRs, GD=10 at 27 STRs, GD=6 at 25 STRs and GD=2 at 12 STRs. Actually, my uncle has some closer STR matches (GD=20 at 111 STRs, GD=12 at 67 STRs and GD=7 at 37 STRs, GD=2 at 25 STRs and GD=0 at 12 STRs) but there is nothing in their STR haplotypes that would suggest a more closely relationship (ie. they don't share any rare STR patterns).

Ahh. I see what you mean. I suppose the science is not quite there yet. Pretty amazing at the prospect genetics unfolds. So, does this Albanian I match belong to the same possible rare clade? Or since we split 1000 plus years ago, would we then be part of different clades due to the split? Or would we belong to the same rare clade under M458(assuming I am) but have a different set of SNPs(signifying the break in common ancestor)? At least this is my laymans understanding of it.

If what Skerdilaidas says is true, and the Pershpalaj actually come from Kalaj(who were tested R1b), then this had to be a woman who married into the paternal line, and it was lost in translation. If the Pershpalaj are R1b, the likely connection is Nikolla Koci, father of Vasil Lupu. The Koci were believed to be a Arvanito-Vlach tribe originating from Southern Albania. Nikolla Koci himself, was from Western Macedonia. Perhaps some relatives who stayed and moved over to Diber. Certainly a possibility. I share DNA with the Polocosers from Moldova. They claim descend to The King Doukas who took power after Lupus son, and married the daughter of Lupu. Perhaps if we are connected to the Southern Albanian Koci(where R1a is surely more prominent), this could explain why we share DNA with those descendants in Moldova. Though any number of explanations may exist for shared DNA.

Skerdilaidas
10-20-2017, 02:52 AM
Interesting. So do we know for sure this Kalaj in Grude is the same line from Kthelle? Assuming they are, then the Pershpalaj in Spac would have to be R1b P311 right? If this is the case, and the literature is true to their origin, then I would imagine it was through a woman who married into the Koci that the stories of the family would enter our own?

Hard to say bro where Kalaj from Grude originate. There were rumors in Malesi that they're of non Albanian origin though, but some thought they came with Turks while other deemed it as nonsense, so not sure what to say and I guess all depends who you ask. Their results point toward west to my opinion, however. Kalaj or Kala as a last name seems popular. I also failed to mentioned another "Kala" from Burrel who actually told me is with origin from Mirdite, so he might actually be one of those Kalaj of Kthelle: he has tested at 23andme and is J1. I also have seen a Kaljevic from Montenegro at 23andme who is I2a..

Dibran
10-20-2017, 09:15 AM
Hard to say bro where Kalaj from Grude originate. There were rumors in Malesi that they're of non Albanian origin though, but some thought they came with Turks while other deemed it as nonsense, so not sure what to say and I guess all depends who you ask. Their results point toward west to my opinion, however. Kalaj or Kala as a last name seems popular. I also failed to mentioned another "Kala" from Burrel who actually told me is with origin from Mirdite, so he might actually be one of those Kalaj of Kthelle: he has tested at 23andme and is J1. I also have seen a Kaljevic from Montenegro at 23andme who is I2a..

Me and my father actually share DNA with a few Kala on 23 as well. I will have to look back, perhaps the one you mention is one of them. So 2 Kala/Kalaj with different haplos? So there is a distinct possibility Pershpalaj are either R1b or J1? Or considering both Kala/Kalaj have different lines, perhaps Pershpalaj are a different line and the literature is faulty? Heres hoping I find a Pershpalaj. If you ever encounter one, keep me in mind so I can try and test them lol.

Another possibility, though a stretch making sense of data, I was reading and noticed many families held trusts, when entire houses were wiped out, surviving children were raised under a different house. This could explain through some adoption process, how different lines sprouted from the same family.

I am wondering more and more now if the Koci of Epirus/Western Macedonia are the same as ours? Their origin is Arvanito-Vlach from Southern Albania. Vasil Lupu of Moldova is descended of Nikolla Koci of Western Macedonia. It would explain how we arrived in Diber considering the close proximity to the border. Perhaps we come from a branch of the Western Macedonia Koci? I wonder if there is a surviving male descended of Lupus line in Romania/Moldova. I would assume its easier to find descendants of royal houses easier than the rest of us common folk. So perhaps a record exists somewhere. I would like to find out. Though, R1a being common in the South, it makes it probable the Koci of the South and our Koci are the same line. Most any Koci today of Albanian heritage is all distant branches of our family. The ones in Diber, Shkupe, and Tirana being the closest if I recall.

Michał
10-20-2017, 10:43 AM
So, does this Albanian I match belong to the same possible rare clade? Or since we split 1000 plus years ago, would we then be part of different clades due to the split? Or would we belong to the same rare clade under M458(assuming I am) but have a different set of SNPs(signifying the break in common ancestor)? At least this is my laymans understanding of it.

At the moment, it seems most likely that you and your Albanian match both belong to a very common "Slavic" branch M458, and more specifically to its largest (thus most common) subclade PF7521>(Y2604)>CTS11962. As for your more downstream phylogenetic position, this cannot be predicted with equally high certainty, although it seems quite likely that you belong to subclade YP515 rather than L1029. So far, we don't know any CTS11962+ lineage that would be negative for both YP515 and L1029, although we cannot rule out that such lineages exist, so there is also some probability that your lineage is a part of a novel subclade under CTS11962 (ie. parallel to L1029 and YP515). On the other hand, it is also perfectly possible that you belong to one of the known subclades directly under YP515 (like YP1182 or YP4120) or to one of the multiple known subclades directly under L1029 (like YP263, YP416, YP417, YP444, YP593, YP1703, YP4647, FGC66325, Y34164, YP6045 or YP6048). The vast majority of those subclades cannot be predicted based on STRs (unless one belongs to a very characteristic STR-defined cluster), so this is why we cannot rule them out in your case. Whatever your proper subclade under CTS11962 (and then under YP515 or L1029) is, it seems very likely that your Albanian STR match is also a member of this specific subclade, although you two are also predicted to form a potential more downstream "Albanian" subclade within such a (yet undetermined) parental clade, and this hypothetical "Albanian" subclade is likely to be specific for the Balkans (thus practically absent among the Eastern and Western Slavs). It is hard to say whether this Albanian subclade is common or rare in the Balkans, as all Balkan nations are strongly undertested, and it also depends on how such a "common" or "rare" (sub)clade is defined in such case.

Dibran
10-20-2017, 12:26 PM
At the moment, it seems most likely that you and your Albanian match both belong to a very common "Slavic" branch M458, and more specifically to its largest (thus most common) subclade PF7521>(Y2604)>CTS11962. As for your more downstream phylogenetic position, this cannot be predicted with equally high certainty, although it seems quite likely that you belong to subclade YP515 rather than L1029. So far, we don't know any CTS11962+ lineage that would be negative for both YP515 and L1029, although we cannot rule out that such lineages exist, so there is also some probability that your lineage is a part of a novel subclade under CTS11962 (ie. parallel to L1029 and YP515). On the other hand, it is also perfectly possible that you belong to one of the known subclades directly under YP515 (like YP1182 or YP4120) or to one of the multiple known subclades directly under L1029 (like YP263, YP416, YP417, YP444, YP593, YP1703, YP4647, FGC66325, Y34164, YP6045 or YP6048). The vast majority of those subclades cannot be predicted based on STRs (unless one belongs to a very characteristic STR-defined cluster), so this is why we cannot rule them out in your case. Whatever your proper subclade under CTS11962 (and then under YP515 or L1029) is, it seems very likely that your Albanian STR match is also a member of this specific subclade, although you two are also predicted to form a potential more downstream "Albanian" subclade within such a (yet undetermined) parental clade, and this hypothetical "Albanian" subclade is likely to be specific for the Balkans (thus practically absent among the Eastern and Western Slavs). It is hard to say whether this Albanian subclade is common or rare in the Balkans, as all Balkan nations are strongly undertested, and it also depends on how such a "common" or "rare" (sub)clade is defined in such case.

Thanks. In the meantime I emailed LivingDNA for a full list of no-calls/negatives(not just m458). In this way if the rest are negative, it would lean more probably in the rare clade under m458 you suggested. However, if I have no-calls on other branches I imagine that may raise some questions. So, hopefully they are just as prompt in this case. Does FGC provide their own initial assignment? and then upload to Yfull would be their own assignment? Or does FGC just give you a data file that you have to upload to Yfull regardless?

Trojet
10-20-2017, 12:39 PM
Thanks. In the meantime I emailed LivingDNA for a full list of no-calls/negatives(not just m458). In this way if the rest are negative, it would lean more probably in the rare clade under m458 you suggested. However, if I have no-calls on other branches I imagine that may raise some questions. So, hopefully they are just as prompt in this case. Does FGC provide their own initial assignment? and then upload to Yfull would be their own assignment? Or does FGC just give you a data file that you have to upload to Yfull regardless?

According to the pic you posted a couple of pages ago by LivingDNA (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6349-Z283(xZ282)-found-from-Poland-to-Switzerland-to-England&p=298949&viewfull=1#post298949), in addition to M458, CTS11962 is also no call, with it's brother L260 being negative. Again, this is consistent with your Y67 STR prediction. It appears that's as far as they test (i.e. no other SNPs tested underneath M458>CTS11962, like YP515, L1029, etc).

Michal may be able to give you a better answer as I haven't looked at any FullGenomes testing yet. But AFAIK, FullGenomes will give you their terminal SNP assignment when the results are ready, since they do their own interpretation.

Dibran
10-20-2017, 12:47 PM
According to the pic you posted a couple of pages ago (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6349-Z283(xZ282)-found-from-Poland-to-Switzerland-to-England&p=298949&viewfull=1#post298949), in addition to M458, CTS11962 is also no call by LivingDNA. It appears that's as far as they test (i.e. no other SNPs tested underneath M458>CTS11962).

Michal may be able to give you a better answer as I haven't looked at any FullGenomes testing yet. But AFAIK, FullGenomes will give you their terminal SNP assignment when the results are ready, since they do their own interpretation.

Great, thanks Trojet!

Yea, I was hearing a lot of conflicting information so I wasn't sure whether or not they tested it. This was the list of "negative" snps that were tested. So probably a base level of SNPs were tested. So far they only provided confirmation for M458 and its associated branches having no-calls. L260 was confirmed negative. The rest of the SNP list is pending.

M458/PF6241(No-Call)
L260/S222(Negative)
Z280
S204/Z91
CTS8557/Z661
CTS91/S344/Z660
S205/Z92
CTS1211/S3357
P278/P278.1/P278.2
P278/P278.1/P278.2
CTS3402/S3361/V2670
L365/S468
S443/Z289
S221/Z284
L448/S200
S223/Z287
S345/Z288
S342/Z88

Michał
10-20-2017, 01:03 PM
Does FGC provide their own initial assignment? and then upload to Yfull would be their own assignment? Or does FGC just give you a data file that you have to upload to Yfull regardless?
FGC will give you a couple of files in which your results are shown. It should be noted that these files are not easy to interpret for a non-specialist (so this is very different from the way the results are presented at YFull). However, you should be able to find your "terminal" subclade mentioned there. Also, you may make those files available for one of the admins in our R1a project (like myself), so we will try to help you interpret your results. Apart form those results files, you will also get a link to your huge raw data file (BAM file), which is the kind of data you need to submit to YFull to get their interpretation of your results done. The YFull analysis for SNPs may take about a month (it depends on how busy they are), and it may take significantly longer to get their TMRCA estimates (for your particular subclade) being updated and your STR results being extracted from the BAM file.

Dibran
10-20-2017, 01:58 PM
FGC will give you a couple of files in which your results are shown. It should be noted that these files are not easy to interpret for a non-specialist (so this is very different from the way the results are presented at YFull). However, you should be able to find your "terminal" subclade mentioned there. Also, you may make those files available for one of the admins in our R1a project (like myself), so we will try to help you interpret your results. Apart form those results files, you will also get a link to your huge raw data file (BAM file), which is the kind of data you need to submit to YFull to get their interpretation of your results done. The YFull analysis for SNPs may take about a month (it depends on how busy they are), and it may take significantly longer to get their TMRCA estimates (for your particular subclade) being updated and your STR results being extracted from the BAM file.

I see, So come January we will have a general idea of the correct branch and trajectory, with a more fleshed out classification/TMRCA through assignment at Yfull. Do Yfull/FGC tend to agree on assignment?

Skerdilaidas
10-20-2017, 02:11 PM
Me and my father actually share DNA with a few Kala on 23 as well. I will have to look back, perhaps the one you mention is one of them. So 2 Kala/Kalaj with different haplos? So there is a distinct possibility Pershpalaj are either R1b or J1? Or considering both Kala/Kalaj have different lines, perhaps Pershpalaj are a different line and the literature is faulty? Heres hoping I find a Pershpalaj. If you ever encounter one, keep me in mind so I can try and test them lol.

Another possibility, though a stretch making sense of data, I was reading and noticed many families held trusts, when entire houses were wiped out, surviving children were raised under a different house. This could explain through some adoption process, how different lines sprouted from the same family.

I am wondering more and more now if the Koci of Epirus/Western Macedonia are the same as ours? Their origin is Arvanito-Vlach from Southern Albania. Vasil Lupu of Moldova is descended of Nikolla Koci of Western Macedonia. It would explain how we arrived in Diber considering the close proximity to the border. Perhaps we come from a branch of the Western Macedonia Koci? I wonder if there is a surviving male descended of Lupus line in Romania/Moldova. I would assume its easier to find descendants of royal houses easier than the rest of us common folk. So perhaps a record exists somewhere. I would like to find out. Though, R1a being common in the South, it makes it probable the Koci of the South and our Koci are the same line. Most any Koci today of Albanian heritage is all distant branches of our family. The ones in Diber, Shkupe, and Tirana being the closest if I recall.

it's possible, without testing them you never know. Ok, I will keep an eye for a Preshpalaj.

Have these Koci of Epirus specifically the Lupus branch tested? I wouldn't rely on last names alone, they are pretty useless tracing genealogy among Albanians. I know for example few Koci families from Kosove: Koci of Polac, Drenice are Berishe-Dode; Koci of Junik are Thaē, there are Koci who are Hot, Kabash (Kocajt of Kabash) etc..

Dibran
10-20-2017, 02:30 PM
it's possible, without testing them you never know. Ok, I will keep an eye for a Preshpalaj.

Have these Koci of Epirus specifically the Lupus branch tested? I wouldn't rely on last names alone, they are pretty useless tracing genealogy among Albanians. I know for example few Koci families from Kosove: Koci of Polac, Drenice are Berishe-Dode; Koci of Junik are Thaē, there are Koci who are Hot, Kabash (Kocajt of Kabash) etc..

Maybe the Koci of Kosova and Montenegro different sure. Those from Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria(Arbanas), and a few in Turkey, are all linked to our line. The Koci of Janina I believe call themselves Greeks now. None that I know of have been tested. As for Lupus line in Moldova, I haven't found anything in my search for any living male descendants. If there is any, I would be open to testing them to confirm this possibility.
Given the preponderance of our lineage in the South compared to the North, it is perhaps telling of a likely Southern Albanian origin especially since we don't belong to any major Fis. And if we truly have no connection to Pershpalaj other than marriage, than it makes a possible connection to Lupus line probable yet not certain.

Skerdilaidas
10-20-2017, 04:03 PM
Maybe the Koci of Kosova and Montenegro different sure. Those from Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria(Arbanas), and a few in Turkey, are all linked to our line. The Koci of Janina I believe call themselves Greeks now. None that I know of have been tested. As for Lupus line in Moldova, I haven't found anything in my search for any living male descendants. If there is any, I would be open to testing them to confirm this possibility.
Given the preponderance of our lineage in the South compared to the North, it is perhaps telling of a likely Southern Albanian origin especially since we don't belong to any major Fis. And if we truly have no connection to Pershpalaj other than marriage, than it makes a possible connection to Lupus line probable yet not certain.

Debatable since 'Koci' used to be a military title of some sort during the Ottoman empire hence why some families carry it as a last name, like Bajraktar and Dizdar for example. For that reason alone I would assume that there are many unrelated families that carry such a last name even in Albania. You most likely are not related to Koci of Kabash? Who are from Puke actally and have expanded into Mirdita and most of central Albania. As I said last names are useless.

Dibran
10-20-2017, 04:22 PM
Debatable since 'Koci' used to be a military title of some sort during the Ottoman empire hence why some families carry it as a last name, like Bajraktar and Dizdar for example. For that reason alone I would assume that there are many unrelated families that carry such a last name even in Albania. You most likely are not related to Koci of Kabash? Who are from Puke actally and have expanded into Mirdita and most of central Albania. As I said last names are useless.

I have to ask my father about Kabash Koci. I know its a military title. I know for a fact the Koci of Macedonia, most including Tirana, Diber, Ostren, are part of our extended line. I know this because we associate with these Kocis on a regular basis. It's not like we haven't met them. So you can't say I am not related to Koci outside of Diber. I know for a fact we are.

We have been to their weddings and them ours. We do not intermarry because we know we are blood. Now, for the Epirus Koci, that could be a coincidence of last name sure.

As for the Koci specifically from Albania, such as Koci from Tirana, Koci from Diber, Koci from Ostren, Koci from all over Western Macedonia are direct branches of our family to whom we associate. The Koci you mention in Kosova Montenegro, and Kabashi, we have no relation to as far as I know. Unless a random Koci slipped up north.

Additionally, while autosomal is not telling, My father comes closer to Southern Albania, not only in nmonte, but even similarity maps. I come more northern due to my mother being from Puka. But, for a Dibran, we resemble the Mirditore in physical stature, yet, my father is more Alpine/Med than Dinaric. Also, we share DNA with a number of Mirditore families. In fact the Kala you mentioned being J1 from Burrel, is the exact one we match. He even shares DNA with all the Kocis tested on 23andme that are our line. So I suspect it could be from a woman who married in, and the story got mixed up over time(regarding the Pershpalaj). Also, are the Koci in Kabash, and Kosova DNA tested to confirm their haplo? because if not, it can go either way.

Obviously oral history is proving not to be too consistent here. Perhaps consider oral history has holes elsewhere.

Skerdilaidas
10-20-2017, 05:29 PM
There is only one Kabashi tested so far at 23andme and he is from Gjakove, so not certain which brotherhood or branch he belongs to. He is I1 (our large clans though in most cases seem to be heterogenous, so who knows).

Maybe that should be your starting point, test a Koci from there?

Dibran
10-20-2017, 05:32 PM
There is only one Kabashi tested so far at 23andme and he is from Gjakove, so not certain which brotherhood or branch he belongs to. He is I1 (our large clans though in most cases seem to be heterogenous, so who knows).

Maybe that should be your starting point, test a Koci from there?

From Kabashi? Perhaps. Since I know the other ones I listed we are related. Outside of them all other Koci are in question. Is the surname Kabashi also a major family from there? or is it just a coincidence? I know we have DNA relatives mbi emren Kabashi. Just don't know where from.

I plan to make a compiled list of surnames we share DNA with and post it on Albanian Bloodlines(unless that violates some group rules) lol. Perhaps it can provide clues you may detect. Our closest from most Albanian matches on Gedmatch seems to be Trojet and Kelmandasi. Then as generations go the matches get more distant. Kelmandasi recently tested 23andme, and the match was confirmed again. Me and my father.

I had my mom test ancestry DNA which had a HUGE amount of Albanians, even for my ancestry file. They even refined their classifications and breakdown. Italy/Greece is now "Southern Europe", and Albanians tend to belong to the Albania/Greece/Turkey cluster of Southern Europe(why Turkey is included I don't know) I assume only the western portion. East Europe was broken down for my mother as "Northeast Italy/Croatia/Bosnia/Montenegro". This explains why I get Balkan on Myheritage, which my father gets none. And it seems Slavs score higher Balkan in that particular calculator. My mothers paternal grandmother was Pitsari with supposed ancestry from Montenegro.

My ancestry file hasn't updated yet though(have to call them) hers were visible when I got the results:

19383

Kelmendasi
10-20-2017, 09:12 PM
Hard to say bro where Kalaj from Grude originate. There were rumors in Malesi that they're of non Albanian origin though, but some thought they came with Turks while other deemed it as nonsense, so not sure what to say and I guess all depends who you ask. Their results point toward west to my opinion, however. Kalaj or Kala as a last name seems popular. I also failed to mentioned another "Kala" from Burrel who actually told me is with origin from Mirdite, so he might actually be one of those Kalaj of Kthelle: he has tested at 23andme and is J1. I also have seen a Kaljevic from Montenegro at 23andme who is I2a..
Would be great if we can test the J1 Kalaj so we can see if I belong to the same clade, I also would like the J1 Beqaj from Grude to test so I will try and persuade him to test

Michał
10-20-2017, 09:38 PM
Do Yfull/FGC tend to agree on assignment?
We need to keep in mind that neither FGC nor YFul have full access to all NGS-tested samples. Therefore, YFull might be for example unable to assign you to a novel downstream subclade shared with someone who was tested with Big Y or Y Elite but did not submit his BAM file to YFull. Similarly, FGC might be unable to assign you to a novel subclade shared with someone who was tested with Big Y. However, both these companies should reveal a list of your "private" SNPs that can be used to search for potential close SNP matches among those tested/analyzed at other companies. These lists are likely to be slightly different, especially when comparing the low quality novel variants (as FGC and YFull use slightly different criteria to identify reliable novel variants), but I would say that about 95% of the high quality novel variants should be the same in both companies.

Dibran
10-20-2017, 10:26 PM
Would be great if we can test the J1 Kalaj so we can see if I belong to the same clade, I also would like the J1 Beqaj from Grude to test so I will try and persuade him to test

I was also thinking this at first glance, and if the match is associated through them too.

Kelmendasi
10-21-2017, 11:47 AM
I was also thinking this at first glance, and if the match is associated through them too.
Could you ask the Kalaj match of yours who is J1 to test with Yseq or Ftdna?

Dibran
10-21-2017, 02:03 PM
Could you ask the Kalaj match of yours who is J1 to test with Yseq or Ftdna?

Sure. I will send him a PM

Dibran
10-21-2017, 02:27 PM
This is a great finding. The presence of of a relatively rare DYS389I=12 result (especially when accompanied by DYS460=10 and DYS464c=14) plus his known Albanian ancestry make him indeed a very good candidate for a member of a shared subclade under CTS11962 (or under YP515?). GD=6 at 37 STRs indicates a common ancestor living more than 1000 years ago (although this would be within a relatively large margin of error, something like 500-1800), so this is not a close relationship, yet it seems to favor the Slavic (rather than Gothic>Italian) scenario.

I guess he is unlikely to order any NGS test, so once Dibran knows his private SNPs under CTS11962 (or under YP515/L1029), the other Albanian should be encouraged to order at least some of them at YSEQ, as this may reveal a series of new shared SNPs that define this hypothetical Albanian subclade. On the other hand, NGS (Big Y or Y Elite) would be a much better choice, so it is worth considering some kind of collective funding.

Idk how accurate this thing it" http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html#FTDNARates "

I entered my haplotype plus the one from Gostivar

It said(based on entering 100 percent probability in the "other" field), that TMRCA between me and him is 600 years. I imagine I entered something wrong or this tool is not accurate.

Michał
10-21-2017, 02:53 PM
Idk how accurate this thing it" http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html#FTDNARates "

I entered my haplotype plus the one from Gostivar

It said(based on entering 100 percent probability in the "other" field), that TMRCA between me and him is 600 years. I imagine I entered something wrong or this tool is not accurate.
In my opinion, the STR-based predictions that are produced by this tool are underestimates, although this doesn't mean those 600 years is something extremely unlikely in this particular case. It is certainly possible that your MRCA lived only 600 ago, although I consider it more likely that your most recent ancestor lived more than 1000 years ago. Another thing we need to keep in mind is a huge margin of error for all such estimates (both SNP-based and STR-based) that are produced based on comparing just two lineages.

Dibran
10-21-2017, 02:56 PM
In my opinion, the STR-based predictions that are produced by this tool are underestimates, although this doesn't mean those 600 years is something extremely unlikely in this particular case. It is certainly possible that your MRCA lived only 600 ago, although I consider it more likely that your most recent ancestor lived more than 1000 years ago. Another thing we need to keep in mind is a huge margin of error for all such estimates (both SNP-based and STR-based) that are produced based on comparing just two lineages.

I see, thank you Michal.

Dibran
10-21-2017, 07:39 PM
In my opinion, the STR-based predictions that are produced by this tool are underestimates, although this doesn't mean those 600 years is something extremely unlikely in this particular case. It is certainly possible that your MRCA lived only 600 ago, although I consider it more likely that your most recent ancestor lived more than 1000 years ago. Another thing we need to keep in mind is a huge margin of error for all such estimates (both SNP-based and STR-based) that are produced based on comparing just two lineages.


Ran Ysearch and it says I have "3" matches at 0 distance. I am the first guy from Albania. the rest my "matches". Can you indicate the TMRCA from this in any way? Or is this unreliable?


19401

Dibran
10-21-2017, 08:15 PM
In my opinion, the STR-based predictions that are produced by this tool are underestimates, although this doesn't mean those 600 years is something extremely unlikely in this particular case. It is certainly possible that your MRCA lived only 600 ago, although I consider it more likely that your most recent ancestor lived more than 1000 years ago. Another thing we need to keep in mind is a huge margin of error for all such estimates (both SNP-based and STR-based) that are produced based on comparing just two lineages.

I ran Y search again This time at 37 markers with maximum distance allowance of 6: Here is my kit, perhaps you can make better sense through your searches: kit:7T24T

19404

Dibran
10-21-2017, 09:04 PM
We need to keep in mind that neither FGC nor YFul have full access to all NGS-tested samples. Therefore, YFull might be for example unable to assign you to a novel downstream subclade shared with someone who was tested with Big Y or Y Elite but did not submit his BAM file to YFull. Similarly, FGC might be unable to assign you to a novel subclade shared with someone who was tested with Big Y. However, both these companies should reveal a list of your "private" SNPs that can be used to search for potential close SNP matches among those tested/analyzed at other companies. These lists are likely to be slightly different, especially when comparing the low quality novel variants (as FGC and YFull use slightly different criteria to identify reliable novel variants), but I would say that about 95% of the high quality novel variants should be the same in both companies.

Koci match with alot of marker matches from Ireland? am I reading this right? dafuqqq. Don't know of any Koci in Ireland. The thing is, its listed as country of origin.

19406

khanabadoshi
10-21-2017, 09:05 PM
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Khana
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Dibran
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Out of curiosity, thought I'd compare you calls with mine.

Michał
10-21-2017, 09:09 PM
I ran Y search again This time at 37 markers with maximum distance allowance of 6: Here is my kit, perhaps you can make better sense through your searches: kit:7T24T

Those matches are for 12 or less SNPs, so I'm afraid they are meaningless.

Dibran
10-21-2017, 09:10 PM
Those matches are for 12 or less SNPs, so I'm afraid they are meaningless.

figured as much ughh lol

Dibran
10-21-2017, 09:11 PM
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Dibran
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Out of curiosity, thought I'd compare you calls with mine.

What does it mean? matching/unmatching between us?

Ancient-Alien
10-24-2017, 04:57 PM
I ran Y search again This time at 37 markers with maximum distance allowance of 6: Here is my kit, perhaps you can make better sense through your searches: kit:7T24T


this is your match list when Ysearch properly used, as you can see you match people from GD 11 to GD 16 on 67 markers compared.

https://i.imgur.com/60FBYu6.jpg

Dibran
10-24-2017, 05:33 PM
this is your match list when Ysearch properly used, as you can see you match people from GD 11 to GD 16 on 67 markers compared.

https://i.imgur.com/60FBYu6.jpg

Those distances are huge though. Was trying to establish/find closer matches.

Ancient-Alien
10-24-2017, 05:46 PM
Those distances are huge though. Was trying to establish/find closer matches.

Distance is not that "huge", with many of these people you will have TMRCA 1500 - 2500 years.. these are your legit matches at GD 11 to 15.
As we already concluded, you dont have any closer matches among people tested so far and these are your closest ones when 67 markers compared, along with Albanian guy that tested 37 markers.

With more and more people testing i am sure you will get more matches with time, R1a is not that rare..

Dibran
10-24-2017, 06:02 PM
Distance is not that "huge", with many of these people you will have TMRCA 1500 - 2500 years.. these are your legit matches at GD 11 to 15.
As we already concluded, you dont have any closer matches and these are your closest ones when 67 markers compared, along with Albanian guy that tested 37 markers.

With more and more people testing i am sure you will get more matches with time, R1a is not that rare..

In terms of establishing closer matches, I would say 1500-2500 is pretty damn distant, man. A couple of those matches are not even R1a(J1c/R1b)? One is an undetermined R(r1a?/r1b?) A good majority of unknowns. confusing how theres a match with different haplos...

Ancient-Alien
10-24-2017, 06:10 PM
In terms of establishing closer matches, I would say 1500-2500 is pretty damn distant, man. A couple of those matches are not even R1a(J1c/R1b)? One is an undetermined R(r1a?/r1b?) A good majority of unknowns. confusing how theres a match with different haplos...

Its not distant, to find closer matches naturally some of your closer paternal line would have to test STRs which obviously none has done that yet.. I dont have closer match then 1000 years myself either and closest ones are similar to yours GD 10 - 15 on Y67.

Other haplos can be shown because sometimes differences in very slow mutating marker can mean difference between haplotypes that split like 15 000 - 16 000 years ago. Or due to a convergence. Hence why you get R1b match.. That would be false match.

But i am sure that others who are R1a where all are M458 are true matches, and with most you have most differences only on fast markers, then there is few and not so significant differences on mid to slow markers. And these that are R or unknown most are R1a>M458 but they didnt state their haplotype on Ysearch upon creating their profile, but if you put their markers in nevgen for example you will see clearly that they are M458 and subclades below it. And with some of them you have 1500 - 2000 years TMRCA, as i already compared you earlier with two guys and informed you about them.
To be sure matches are true, its best to compare with people from your subclade or close ones around it.


GD is simply a genetic difference or genetic distance on markers compared, then you need to go further in details and see whats the mutation rate of these markers or put them in TMRCA calculators to do calculation for you. If you have many differences on slow markers then you can suppose these people are not same haplotype as you and as you see sometimes difference in few slow markers can mean difference in R1b and R1a http://www.rogersdna.com/geddna/mutate.php