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Sikeliot
02-01-2016, 08:02 PM
I have asked similar questions but never so straightforward.

We have established in other threads that modern Greeks indeed have Slavic admixture. But how much? To know, we need to establish a baseline for which population is closest to pre-Slavic Greeks.

If southern Italians are the baseline for pre-Slavic Greeks, then Greeks appear to be 25% Slavic, coming up as 75% South Italian, 25% Russian or Ukrainian. But is this accurate?

Here are two GEDmatch results using the Eurogenes K15 calculator. I have highlighted the Oracle results. Both come from the Peloponnese, which presumably has less Slavic admixture than the north of the country and border regions.

"East Euro" + "Baltic" come out around 20%, compared to much lower among southern Italians.



Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 22.46
2 Atlantic 18.5
3 West_Med 16.66
4 West_Asian 15.92
5 Baltic 12.61
6 Eastern_Euro 7.67
7 North_Sea 3.65
8 Red_Sea 1.82
9 Oceanian 0.46
10 Northeast_African 0.23

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 6.02
2 Central_Greek 10.57
3 Italian_Abruzzo 10.83
4 Bulgarian 11.23
5 Greek_Thessaly 11.65
6 West_Sicilian 11.72
7 East_Sicilian 11.77
8 South_Italian 12.49
9 Ashkenazi 12.82
10 Tuscan 13.15
11 Romanian 14.35
12 Sephardic_Jewish 16.76
13 North_Italian 17.23
14 Italian_Jewish 17.3
15 Algerian_Jewish 17.62
16 Serbian 18.12
17 Tunisian_Jewish 20.51
18 Turkish 21.04
19 Cyprian 21.51
20 Moldavian 22.46

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.6% Greek + 6.4% North_Ossetian @ 5.51
2 93.4% Greek + 6.6% Adygei @ 5.54
3 93.3% Greek + 6.7% Kabardin @ 5.55
4 93.4% Greek + 6.6% Balkar @ 5.55
5 94.6% Greek + 5.4% Abhkasian @ 5.56
6 94.5% Greek + 5.5% Georgian @ 5.62
7 94.5% Greek + 5.5% Ossetian @ 5.64
8 94.4% Greek + 5.6% Chechen @ 5.66
9 94.3% Greek + 5.7% Kumyk @ 5.76
10 95.3% Greek + 4.7% Lezgin @ 5.8
11 93.5% Greek + 6.5% Turkish @ 5.86
12 95.6% Greek + 4.4% Nogay @ 5.86
13 95.4% Greek + 4.6% Kurdish @ 5.87
14 95.3% Greek + 4.7% Azeri @ 5.9
15 96.9% Greek + 3.1% Tabassaran @ 5.92
16 96.5% Greek + 3.5% Iranian @ 5.93
17 96.6% Greek + 3.4% Georgian_Jewish @ 5.94
18 96.7% Greek + 3.3% Armenian @ 5.95
19 97.7% Greek + 2.3% Balochi @ 5.95
20 97.8% Greek + 2.2% Brahui @ 5.95


and then the second one..


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.23
2 West_Med 14.68
3 North_Sea 13.16
4 West_Asian 12.93
5 Baltic 11.03
6 Atlantic 10.39
7 Eastern_Euro 8.04
8 Red_Sea 2.75
9 Amerindian 0.42
10 South_Asian 0.3
11 Southeast_Asian 0.05
12 Siberian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 5.3
2 Greek 6.7
3 Central_Greek 7.54
4 Ashkenazi 7.62
5 East_Sicilian 8.99
6 Italian_Abruzzo 9.31
7 South_Italian 10.79
8 Bulgarian 10.85
9 West_Sicilian 11.09
10 Tuscan 12.55
11 Romanian 12.67
12 Italian_Jewish 14.14
13 Sephardic_Jewish 15.31
14 Algerian_Jewish 15.61
15 Serbian 15.79
16 North_Italian 17.5
17 Tunisian_Jewish 18.73
18 Libyan_Jewish 18.89
19 Cyprian 19.34
20 Turkish 20.44

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.3% Cyprian + 45.7% Hungarian @ 3.47
2 87.9% Greek_Thessaly + 12.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.88
3 55.3% Serbian + 44.7% Cyprian @ 4.02
4 89.3% Greek_Thessaly + 10.7% Iranian_Jewish @ 4.19
5 89.4% Greek_Thessaly + 10.6% Kurdish_Jewish @ 4.2
6 88.8% Greek_Thessaly + 11.2% Assyrian @ 4.23
7 51.6% Cyprian + 48.4% Moldavian @ 4.28
8 89.4% Greek_Thessaly + 10.6% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.31
9 61.3% Romanian + 38.7% Cyprian @ 4.34
10 60.5% Cyprian + 39.5% Ukrainian @ 4.35
11 87.7% Greek_Thessaly + 12.3% Lebanese_Muslim @ 4.37
12 90% Greek_Thessaly + 10% Kurdish @ 4.39
13 90% Greek_Thessaly + 10% Georgian_Jewish @ 4.39
14 58.7% Cyprian + 41.3% East_German @ 4.4
15 68.9% Romanian + 31.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.42
16 84.9% Central_Greek + 15.1% Erzya @ 4.43
17 72.6% Bulgarian + 27.4% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.43
18 86.8% Greek_Thessaly + 13.2% Cyprian @ 4.47
19 68.8% Romanian + 31.2% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.47
20 89.3% Greek_Thessaly + 10.7% Azeri @ 4.48




And now a southern Italian from Calabria:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 32.89
2 West_Asian 16.92
3 West_Med 14.43
4 Atlantic 13.3
5 North_Sea 9.2
6 Baltic 6.18
7 Red_Sea 4.85
8 Eastern_Euro 1.49
9 Northeast_African 0.72

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 4.84
2 Central_Greek 6.15
3 East_Sicilian 6.47
4 Italian_Jewish 7.4
5 Sephardic_Jewish 7.56
6 Ashkenazi 8.18
7 Italian_Abruzzo 8.22
8 Algerian_Jewish 9.26
9 West_Sicilian 9.45
10 Tunisian_Jewish 10.75
11 Cyprian 11.35
12 Greek 11.61
13 Greek_Thessaly 12.59
14 Libyan_Jewish 13.12
15 Lebanese_Muslim 14.18
16 Tuscan 14.73
17 Syrian 15.92
18 Turkish 16.12
19 Samaritan 18.1
20 Lebanese_Christian 18.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 28.8% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.76
2 78% Central_Greek + 22% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.98
3 79.1% Cyprian + 20.9% Irish @ 3.09
4 78.4% Cyprian + 21.6% Southeast_English @ 3.15
5 79.4% Cyprian + 20.6% West_Scottish @ 3.24
6 84.1% South_Italian + 15.9% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.25
7 78.3% Cyprian + 21.7% Southwest_English @ 3.28
8 77.9% Cyprian + 22.1% North_German @ 3.29
9 71.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 28.8% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.36
10 79.1% Cyprian + 20.9% North_Dutch @ 3.38
11 76.1% Cyprian + 23.9% South_Dutch @ 3.41
12 59.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 40.8% Cyprian @ 3.44
13 79.7% Cyprian + 20.3% Orcadian @ 3.45
14 79% Cyprian + 21% Danish @ 3.46
15 85.8% South_Italian + 14.2% Iranian_Jewish @ 3.48
16 85% South_Italian + 15% Assyrian @ 3.49
17 86.2% South_Italian + 13.8% Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.55
18 81% South_Italian + 19% Lebanese_Muslim @ 3.62
19 76% Cyprian + 24% West_German @ 3.71
20 87.1% South_Italian + 12.9% Georgian_Jewish @ 3.72

Odyss
02-01-2016, 08:14 PM
Can you use the Ionian islands especially Zakynthos in your datas please because no mention of Slavic settlements there to my knownledge.

Sikeliot
02-01-2016, 08:27 PM
Can you use the Ionian islands especially Zakynthos in your datas please because no mention of Slavic settlements there to my knownledge.


Here is a result from Lefkada. It might help determine how much of that 20% East European on the mainland is native versus foreign. Ionian islanders are somewhat less Near Eastern than are southern Italians and Aegean islanders, so they might be a better proxy for pre-Slavic Greece.

This result approaches 16% Baltic + East Euro.. not much different. So it makes me wonder if Greeks share ancestry with Slavs and other East Europeans even if not directly Slavic.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.74
2 West_Med 16
3 Atlantic 15.62
4 West_Asian 10.53
5 Baltic 10
6 Red_Sea 7.01
7 North_Sea 6.88
8 Eastern_Euro 6.22
9 South_Asian 0.98

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 5.86
2 Ashkenazi 6.66
3 East_Sicilian 6.89
4 West_Sicilian 6.9
5 Central_Greek 6.96
6 Italian_Abruzzo 7.79
7 South_Italian 8.45
8 Greek_Thessaly 8.81
9 Tuscan 10.71
10 Sephardic_Jewish 10.85
11 Italian_Jewish 11.05
12 Algerian_Jewish 11.54
13 Bulgarian 13.01
14 Tunisian_Jewish 14.81
15 Romanian 15.5
16 North_Italian 16.33
17 Libyan_Jewish 17.24
18 Cyprian 17.62
19 Serbian 18.53
20 Lebanese_Muslim 20.7

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.2% Greek + 12.8% Saudi @ 2.61
2 87.7% Greek + 12.3% Yemenite_Jewish @ 2.74
3 77.6% Sephardic_Jewish + 22.4% Estonian_Polish @ 3.25
4 76.6% Sephardic_Jewish + 23.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.36
5 77.7% Sephardic_Jewish + 22.3% Belorussian @ 3.43
6 71% Sephardic_Jewish + 29% Croatian @ 3.45
7 83.8% Greek + 16.2% Bedouin @ 3.47
8 79.3% Sephardic_Jewish + 20.7% Lithuanian @ 3.48
9 54.9% Sephardic_Jewish + 45.1% Bulgarian @ 3.48
10 68.6% Greek + 31.4% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.52
11 75.5% Algerian_Jewish + 24.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.63
12 75.8% Greek + 24.2% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.65
13 76.9% Sephardic_Jewish + 23.1% Polish @ 3.65
14 53.3% Algerian_Jewish + 46.7% Bulgarian @ 3.66
15 83.9% Greek + 16.1% Palestinian @ 3.67
16 77.1% Sephardic_Jewish + 22.9% Southwest_Russian @ 3.7
17 76.8% Sephardic_Jewish + 23.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.7
18 75.7% Sephardic_Jewish + 24.3% South_Polish @ 3.73
19 76% Sephardic_Jewish + 24% Ukrainian @ 3.79
20 76.7% Algerian_Jewish + 23.3% Estonian_Polish @ 3.8

Sikeliot
02-01-2016, 08:34 PM
Now here is where it gets interesting.. here is a sample result from Catania, Sicily -- a region said to have a lot of Greek influence. But where is their Baltic and East European? There is 4% only. This is much less than the "non-Slavic" influenced Ionian islanders who score much more. What might this mean?

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.9
2 West_Med 16.62
3 West_Asian 15.64
4 Atlantic 15.23
5 North_Sea 8.49
6 Red_Sea 4.36
7 Baltic 4.28
8 Northeast_African 2.29
9 Oceanian 0.99
10 Southeast_Asian 0.2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 3.91
2 Italian_Jewish 6.03
3 East_Sicilian 6.1
4 Central_Greek 6.71
5 Sephardic_Jewish 6.85
6 West_Sicilian 7.58
7 Italian_Abruzzo 7.76
8 Algerian_Jewish 7.84
9 Ashkenazi 9.15
10 Tunisian_Jewish 10.07
11 Greek 11.93
12 Cyprian 12.7
13 Libyan_Jewish 12.78
14 Greek_Thessaly 13.26
15 Tuscan 13.3
16 Lebanese_Muslim 15.97
17 Syrian 17.47
18 Turkish 18.05
19 Samaritan 19.31
20 North_Italian 19.7

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 83% South_Italian + 17% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.39
2 92.7% South_Italian + 7.3% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.54
3 74.9% South_Italian + 25.1% Italian_Jewish @ 3.55
4 80.1% South_Italian + 19.9% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.63
5 93.3% South_Italian + 6.7% Jordanian @ 3.64
6 93.6% South_Italian + 6.4% Palestinian @ 3.65
7 91.9% South_Italian + 8.1% Lebanese_Muslim @ 3.66
8 98.5% South_Italian + 1.5% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 3.67
9 90.1% South_Italian + 9.9% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.67
10 97.8% South_Italian + 2.2% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 3.68
11 98.3% South_Italian + 1.7% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 3.68
12 98.2% South_Italian + 1.8% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 3.69
13 97.9% South_Italian + 2.1% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 3.69
14 94.4% South_Italian + 5.6% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.72
15 95.5% South_Italian + 4.5% Egyptian @ 3.73
16 95.1% South_Italian + 4.9% Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.73
17 95.2% South_Italian + 4.8% Iranian_Jewish @ 3.73
18 98.5% South_Italian + 1.5% Somali @ 3.75
19 96.9% South_Italian + 3.1% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.75
20 86.5% South_Italian + 13.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.76

Odyss
02-01-2016, 08:36 PM
Lefkada is still close to mainland geographically. There always was population mouvements between islands and mainland. Do not use Corfu because there were Epirote settlements. Zakynthos sounded good to me , but still same question applied. Its an interresting topic because peope overbroad have been claiming stuff but theres no very clear picture.

Sikeliot
02-01-2016, 08:37 PM
Lefkada is still close to mainland geographically. There always was populations mouvements between islands and mainland. Do not use Corfu because there were Epirote settlements. Zakynthos sounded good to me , but still same question applied.

I don't have a result from there.

I think comparisons to Calabria and Sicily are valuable, and to the Aegean islands. But we also cannot assume mainland Greeks were ever identical to people in these regions, which have likely always had more contact with the Near East.

Gravetto-Danubian
02-01-2016, 09:03 PM
I have asked similar questions but never so straightforward.

We have established in other threads that modern Greeks indeed have Slavic admixture. But how much? To know, we need to establish a baseline for which population is closest to pre-Slavic Greeks.

If southern Italians are the baseline for pre-Slavic Greeks, then Greeks appear to be 25% Slavic, coming up as 75% South Italian, 25% Russian or Ukrainian. But is this accurate?

Here are two GEDmatch results using the Eurogenes K15 calculator. I have highlighted the Oracle results. Both come from the Peloponnese, which presumably has less Slavic admixture than the north of the country and border regions.

"East Euro" + "Baltic" come out around 20%, compared to much lower among southern Italians.



Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 22.46
2 Atlantic 18.5
3 West_Med 16.66
4 West_Asian 15.92
5 Baltic 12.61
6 Eastern_Euro 7.67
7 North_Sea 3.65
8 Red_Sea 1.82
9 Oceanian 0.46
10 Northeast_African 0.23

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 6.02
2 Central_Greek 10.57
3 Italian_Abruzzo 10.83
4 Bulgarian 11.23
5 Greek_Thessaly 11.65
6 West_Sicilian 11.72
7 East_Sicilian 11.77
8 South_Italian 12.49
9 Ashkenazi 12.82
10 Tuscan 13.15
11 Romanian 14.35
12 Sephardic_Jewish 16.76
13 North_Italian 17.23
14 Italian_Jewish 17.3
15 Algerian_Jewish 17.62
16 Serbian 18.12
17 Tunisian_Jewish 20.51
18 Turkish 21.04
19 Cyprian 21.51
20 Moldavian 22.46

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.6% Greek + 6.4% North_Ossetian @ 5.51
2 93.4% Greek + 6.6% Adygei @ 5.54
3 93.3% Greek + 6.7% Kabardin @ 5.55
4 93.4% Greek + 6.6% Balkar @ 5.55
5 94.6% Greek + 5.4% Abhkasian @ 5.56
6 94.5% Greek + 5.5% Georgian @ 5.62
7 94.5% Greek + 5.5% Ossetian @ 5.64
8 94.4% Greek + 5.6% Chechen @ 5.66
9 94.3% Greek + 5.7% Kumyk @ 5.76
10 95.3% Greek + 4.7% Lezgin @ 5.8
11 93.5% Greek + 6.5% Turkish @ 5.86
12 95.6% Greek + 4.4% Nogay @ 5.86
13 95.4% Greek + 4.6% Kurdish @ 5.87
14 95.3% Greek + 4.7% Azeri @ 5.9
15 96.9% Greek + 3.1% Tabassaran @ 5.92
16 96.5% Greek + 3.5% Iranian @ 5.93
17 96.6% Greek + 3.4% Georgian_Jewish @ 5.94
18 96.7% Greek + 3.3% Armenian @ 5.95
19 97.7% Greek + 2.3% Balochi @ 5.95
20 97.8% Greek + 2.2% Brahui @ 5.95


and then the second one..


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.23
2 West_Med 14.68
3 North_Sea 13.16
4 West_Asian 12.93
5 Baltic 11.03
6 Atlantic 10.39
7 Eastern_Euro 8.04
8 Red_Sea 2.75
9 Amerindian 0.42
10 South_Asian 0.3
11 Southeast_Asian 0.05
12 Siberian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 5.3
2 Greek 6.7
3 Central_Greek 7.54
4 Ashkenazi 7.62
5 East_Sicilian 8.99
6 Italian_Abruzzo 9.31
7 South_Italian 10.79
8 Bulgarian 10.85
9 West_Sicilian 11.09
10 Tuscan 12.55
11 Romanian 12.67
12 Italian_Jewish 14.14
13 Sephardic_Jewish 15.31
14 Algerian_Jewish 15.61
15 Serbian 15.79
16 North_Italian 17.5
17 Tunisian_Jewish 18.73
18 Libyan_Jewish 18.89
19 Cyprian 19.34
20 Turkish 20.44

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.3% Cyprian + 45.7% Hungarian @ 3.47
2 87.9% Greek_Thessaly + 12.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.88
3 55.3% Serbian + 44.7% Cyprian @ 4.02
4 89.3% Greek_Thessaly + 10.7% Iranian_Jewish @ 4.19
5 89.4% Greek_Thessaly + 10.6% Kurdish_Jewish @ 4.2
6 88.8% Greek_Thessaly + 11.2% Assyrian @ 4.23
7 51.6% Cyprian + 48.4% Moldavian @ 4.28
8 89.4% Greek_Thessaly + 10.6% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.31
9 61.3% Romanian + 38.7% Cyprian @ 4.34
10 60.5% Cyprian + 39.5% Ukrainian @ 4.35
11 87.7% Greek_Thessaly + 12.3% Lebanese_Muslim @ 4.37
12 90% Greek_Thessaly + 10% Kurdish @ 4.39
13 90% Greek_Thessaly + 10% Georgian_Jewish @ 4.39
14 58.7% Cyprian + 41.3% East_German @ 4.4
15 68.9% Romanian + 31.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.42
16 84.9% Central_Greek + 15.1% Erzya @ 4.43
17 72.6% Bulgarian + 27.4% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.43
18 86.8% Greek_Thessaly + 13.2% Cyprian @ 4.47
19 68.8% Romanian + 31.2% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.47
20 89.3% Greek_Thessaly + 10.7% Azeri @ 4.48




And now a southern Italian from Calabria:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 32.89
2 West_Asian 16.92
3 West_Med 14.43
4 Atlantic 13.3
5 North_Sea 9.2
6 Baltic 6.18
7 Red_Sea 4.85
8 Eastern_Euro 1.49
9 Northeast_African 0.72

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 4.84
2 Central_Greek 6.15
3 East_Sicilian 6.47
4 Italian_Jewish 7.4
5 Sephardic_Jewish 7.56
6 Ashkenazi 8.18
7 Italian_Abruzzo 8.22
8 Algerian_Jewish 9.26
9 West_Sicilian 9.45
10 Tunisian_Jewish 10.75
11 Cyprian 11.35
12 Greek 11.61
13 Greek_Thessaly 12.59
14 Libyan_Jewish 13.12
15 Lebanese_Muslim 14.18
16 Tuscan 14.73
17 Syrian 15.92
18 Turkish 16.12
19 Samaritan 18.1
20 Lebanese_Christian 18.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 28.8% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.76
2 78% Central_Greek + 22% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.98
3 79.1% Cyprian + 20.9% Irish @ 3.09
4 78.4% Cyprian + 21.6% Southeast_English @ 3.15
5 79.4% Cyprian + 20.6% West_Scottish @ 3.24
6 84.1% South_Italian + 15.9% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.25
7 78.3% Cyprian + 21.7% Southwest_English @ 3.28
8 77.9% Cyprian + 22.1% North_German @ 3.29
9 71.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 28.8% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.36
10 79.1% Cyprian + 20.9% North_Dutch @ 3.38
11 76.1% Cyprian + 23.9% South_Dutch @ 3.41
12 59.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 40.8% Cyprian @ 3.44
13 79.7% Cyprian + 20.3% Orcadian @ 3.45
14 79% Cyprian + 21% Danish @ 3.46
15 85.8% South_Italian + 14.2% Iranian_Jewish @ 3.48
16 85% South_Italian + 15% Assyrian @ 3.49
17 86.2% South_Italian + 13.8% Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.55
18 81% South_Italian + 19% Lebanese_Muslim @ 3.62
19 76% Cyprian + 24% West_German @ 3.71
20 87.1% South_Italian + 12.9% Georgian_Jewish @ 3.72

Interesting. Looking at "Baltic' and "East Euro' components as sole markers of Slavic contribution would markedly underestimate it, because Slavs weren't pure Balts. I.e. the Slavs moving into the Balkans - especially those southern-most - would have had significant "Mediterranean' type ancestry to begin with.

In absence of aDNA evidence from both sides of the Danube from 400 AD, 600 AD, and 900AD slices, it might be best to look at Y DNA as a rough but solid guide - i.e. the proportion of I2a - CTS10228 and R1a-Z280 in Greece. It probably reaches 50% in northern parts. But one cannot guarantee when they arrived, so estimates are fraught with risk

Sikeliot
02-01-2016, 09:18 PM
Interesting. Looking at "Baltic' and "East Euro' components as sole markers of Slavic contribution would markedly underestimate it, because Slavs weren't pure Balts. I.e. the Slavs moving into the Balkans - especially those southern-most - would have had significant "Mediterranean' type ancestry to begin with.

In absence of aDNA evidence from both sides of the Danube from 400 AD, 600 AD, and 900AD slices, it might be best to look at Y DNA as a rough but solid guide - i.e. the proportion of I2a - CTS10228 and R1a-Z280 in Greece. It probably reaches 50% in northern parts. But one cannot guarantee when they arrived, so estimates are fraught with risk

So you think it is possible for Greeks to be more significantly descended from Slavic migrants than 20%?

Gravetto-Danubian
02-01-2016, 09:24 PM
So you think it is possible for Greeks to be more significantly descended from Slavic migrants than 20%?

It depends on the region. But yes- I'd bet Greek Macedonia would approach 50%.
There was one region even in Crete (Lasithi plateau) with 20% R1a (Martinez 2007).

Sikeliot
02-01-2016, 09:58 PM
It depends on the region. But yes- I'd bet Greek Macedonia would approach 50%.
There was one region even in Crete (Lasithi plateau) with 20% R1a (Martinez 2007).

I think Epirus and Thrace might have even more Slavic ancestry than Macedonia. On 23andme when they had "Global Similarity" some Epirotes plotted north of me (I am 25% Polish, and the rest Sicilian, Portuguese and even 1/64 Sub-Saharan African from Cape Verde) and were shifted into the Slavic Balkans. I also have a GEDMatch result of a half Cretan, half Thracian (who I can show you) who plots as an average mainland Greek -- given that Cretans are like Sicilians, it means the Thracian side might be even more northern than the Greek average.

eastara
02-02-2016, 05:33 AM
What do you call a "Thracian" Greek, if from the so called Kariots, who lived around the Bulgarian town of Elhovo, they are in fact with original Torlakian origin, who Hellenised very late during Ottoman times. We have one such person in the Bulgarian DNA project and her MyOrigins is no different than the other Bulgarians, plus she has practically no Greek, only Bulgarian relatives.
The Torlaks, who live in Eastern Serbia, Northern Macedonia and North Western Bulgaria have in fact more Eastern Europe, presumably Slavic origin than the Southern Bulgarians and Macedonians.
People should be careful also with the so called Macedonian Greeks. During different population population exchanges on the Balkans and Anatolia some of the Slavs were expelled and the new Greeks who settled there were predominantly of Anatolian origin. The rest of the Slavs got assimilated only recently. One older study about Macedonian Greek haplogroups has collected samples from a village called Nea Nikomedia, who are recent refugee from Anatolia and no Macedonians whatsoever.
Here is to say that the Greeks on the Balkans during Ottoman times were something like the Jews. They lived predominantly in the cities and were merchants or tradesmen. The other area that was exclusively Greek was the Black sea and Aegean coastline and the fishermen villages.
People who were farmers inland were predominantly of Slavic origin. Albanians were initially shepherds in the mountains, but later also had an expansion in what is now Greece. First, when the West Europeans and richer Greeks from the Crusader states got evacuated after the Ottoman conquest, cities like Athens were vacated and the Albanians took over. Later they moved South and East after accepting Islam, pushing other Christians along the way into that direction.

vettor
02-02-2016, 05:48 AM
The ionion islands where over 300 years under Venice and many venetian families settled there

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_Islands_under_Venetian_rule

They also brought all the greek cretan people who did not want to stay under the ottomans to the ionion islands for resettlement..............so you cannot really get any great genetic confirmation on who is who.

also Corfu was under Venice from 1207 to 1797 ...........nearly 600 years

Sikeliot
02-02-2016, 05:54 AM
I notice judging by some results that Aegean islanders have more Northern affinities than Cretans.

ThirdTerm
02-24-2016, 04:13 AM
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/middle_bronze_age_europe.png

The average frequency of the Slavic haplogroup R1a is 11.5% nationally in Greece. It was the Greco-Macedonians and Tharacians, Indo-European tribes inhabiting a large area in Southeastern Europe, who introduced R1a to Greece from 4,000 to 3,500 years ago. R1b is associated with the Dorians, who swept southward into central Greece and then into the southern Aegean area in successive migrations beginning about 1,100 BC.

R1a frequencies in Greece by region

North Greece: 18%
Central Greece: 11%
South Greece: 10.5%
Crete: 9%
Aegean Islands: 10%

Gravetto-Danubian
02-24-2016, 07:09 AM
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/middle_bronze_age_europe.png

The average frequency of the Slavic haplogroup R1a is 11.5% nationally in Greece. It was the Greco-Macedonians and Tharacians, Indo-European tribes inhabiting a large area in Southeastern Europe, who introduced R1a to Greece from 4,000 to 3,500 years ago. R1b is associated with the Dorians, who swept southward into central Greece and then into the southern Aegean area in successive migrations beginning about 1,100 BC.

R1a frequencies in Greece by region

North Greece: 18%
Central Greece: 11%
South Greece: 10.5%
Crete: 9%
Aegean Islands: 10%

Most of R1a in the Balkans, incl Greece, probably came during the early Middle Ages, not the Bronze Age.

Mis
02-24-2016, 08:54 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFZeDifKATM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ_L7zx2RLA
Greeks in Poland. You can see influences of Slavic ?

Tomenable
03-04-2016, 12:58 PM
From Alena Kushniarevich et al., "Genetic Heritage of the Balto-Slavic Speaking Populations..." (2015):


(...) South Slavs in their turn share a similar number of IBD segments with East-West Slavs and with the ‘inter-Slavic’ Romanian, Hungarian and Gagauz populations (Fig 4B; Table G in S1 File). Notably, South Slavs share significantly fewer IBD segments for length classes 1.5–3 cM with their immediate geographic neighbors in south - Greeks, except Macedonian Greeks – than with the group of East-West Slavs (Fig 4B). Altogether, the analysis of IBD segment distributions revealed even patterns of IBD sharing among East-West Slavs–‘inter-Slavic’ populations (Hungarians, Romanians and Gagauz)–and South Slavs, i.e. across an area of assumed historic movements of people including Slavs. (...) we suggest that there is a “central-east European” genetic substratum in West and East Slavs, exemplified by NRY hgs R1a and the k3 ancestry component, and a “south-east European” one, featuring NRY hgs I2a and E plus the k2 ancestry component for South Slavs (Fig 2A and 2B, Fig 3, Table K in S1 File; Tables A,B in S1 File). Notably, the “south-east European” component does not extend to the whole Balkan Peninsula, as South Slavs are differentiated from Greek sub-populations except Macedonian Greeks (Fig 2A, Fig 4B) [55]. (...)

So it seems that only Macedonian Greeks are similar to South Slavs (especially to South-East Slavs: Macedonians and Bulgarians).

'Inter-Slavic' groups (separating South & North Slavs) - such as Hungarians or Austrians - seem to be more genetically Slavic.

Tomenable
03-04-2016, 01:17 PM
Most of R1a in the Balkans, incl Greece, probably came during the early Middle Ages, not the Bronze Age.

Male individual Zeta59 from Grave Circle B in Mycenae had mtDNA haplogroup U5a1a.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_Circle_B,_Mycenae

In ancient DNA records, U5a1a is strongly associated with R1a, so presumably Mycenaeans had substantial R1a:

http://s12.postimg.org/ync8v4fml/Mykeny1a.png

From left to right: Zeta59 (U5a1a), warrior-prince Gamma51 (unknown mtDNA) and Beta52 (unknown mtDNA):

http://s28.postimg.org/o2mxhk8rh/Mykeny1.png

Princess Gamma58 and her (most likely) brother Gamma55 had mtDNA haplogroup K:

http://s12.postimg.org/4j9kij6gt/Gamma_58.jpghttp://s17.postimg.org/q6bmvajov/Gamma_55.png

And male Alpha62 (also from Grave Circle B in Mycenae) - neither K nor U5a1a:

http://s8.postimg.org/uknhy49et/Alfa_62.png

Unfortunately we still don't have any Post-Neolithic ancient Y-DNA from Greece.

Tomenable
03-04-2016, 01:42 PM
Of course, Grave Circle B were burials of the rulling class of Proto-Greeks.

That rulling class could still (at that time) be genetically different from the general populace.

In autosomal terms it was probably more Steppe-derived and less EEF-derived.

===========================

More about Grave Circle B individuals:

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/Image1-2.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/Image3-2.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/Image5-2.jpg

Another reconstruction of warrior-prince Gamma51 (see previous post), unknown mtDNA:

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/Image2-5.jpg

And more about male individual Zeta59 (mtDNA U5a1a - associated with R1a by Maciamo):

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/Image6-2.jpg

Excerpts from Maciamo about links between U5a1a, Steppe origins and R1a in aDNA records:


(...) The Bronze Age shows a different picture. U5a1 (mostly U5a1a) suddenly supersedes U5b in Germany in remains from the Corded Ware and Unetice cultures, both linked with the advance of Indo-Europeans speakers from the Pontic Steppe in southern Russia and Ukraine. U5a1 also turns up in the Andronovo culture in southern Siberia, another culture linked with the Indo-European migrations. U5a1a was also found in elite graves from Mycenaen Greece, the period associated with the introduction of the Proto-Greek branch of Indo-European languages into Greece.

(...)

Iron Age remains tell the same story. U5a1/U5a1a shows up in an Indo-European kurgan burials from Kazakhstan (Lalueza-Fox et al. 2004) and from Khakassia in the Altai (Keyser et al. 2009), in kurgans from the Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture in Mongolia and southern Siberia (Pilipenko et al. 2010), in Scythian and Scytho-Sarmatian remains from Ukraine (Nikitin et al. 2011) and southern Russia (Dersarkissian 2011), and even in the classical Celtic La Tène culture in southern Germany (Knipper et al. 2014).

U5a1a therefore appears very strongly correlated with the Indo-European migrations during the Bronze Age and the Iron Age. More amazingly U5b was never found in any kurgan burial or other Indo-European remains in Asia, which means that the U5b samples from the Corded Ware, Unetice or Urnfield cultures in central Europe could represent the lineages of the indigenous inhabitants of the region who were absorbed by the Indo-European invasions. Another possibility is that U5a1a is associated with the R1a branch of the Indo-Europeans, and that other varieties of U5 would have been carried by R1b people. It is noteworthy that of the two Indo-European branches only Y-haplogroup R1a was found in the above remains from Eastern Europe, Central Asia and Siberia.

Consequently the only conclusion that can be drawn from them is that U5a1a is linked to R1a.

(...)

Tajikistan also happens to be the Asian country with the highest percentage of U5 (7.5%), and most of it is U5a1, with a small minority of U5b1c. This confirms again the association between U5a1 and R1a. (...)

Tomenable
03-04-2016, 03:05 PM
People who brought IE language to Greece were probably a mixture of R1a and R1b-Z2103, hard to say which was more numerous.

Tomenable
03-05-2016, 11:01 AM
Modern Greeks are genetically much closer to Albanians, than to their Slavic neighbours.

sciencediver
03-05-2016, 12:09 PM
Modern Greeks are genetically much closer to Albanians, than to their Slavic neighbours.

That's because they're both untouched by the Slavic element, nothing more.

sciencediver
03-05-2016, 01:32 PM
edit///

Tomenable
03-05-2016, 02:03 PM
Modern Greeks are genetically much closer to Albanians, than to their Slavic neighbours.

That's because they're both untouched by the Slavic element, nothing more.

Let's not exaggerate in the other way around. They are both to some extent touched by the Slavic element - there was Slavic settlement as far as Peloponnesus in Greece, and there are also Slavic toponyms in Albania, especially in Tosk-speaking areas. As for Albanian-Greek similarity - yes one reason would be that both lived in the Balkans before Slavic migrations, but another reason is also - among others - Albanian settlement in Greece (groups such as Arvanites). For example Athens (and in fact most of Attica) used to have Albanian majority in 1830.

An excerpt from a book published in 1855 (it says that 25 years earlier, in 1830, Athens had Albanian majority):

http://s21.postimg.org/6lw13jhx3/Albanian_Athens.png

And of course my statement was about Non-Macedonian Greeks.

Because Macedonian Greeks are - actually - more genetically similar to South-Eastern Slavs than to Albanians.

leonardo
03-05-2016, 02:12 PM
http://s8.postimg.org/uknhy49et/Alfa_62.png

Unfortunately we still don't have any Post-Neolithic ancient Y-DNA from Greece.

Thiis fellow has Slavic appearance, for what it is worth.

Tomenable
03-05-2016, 02:20 PM
Slavic appearance

Is there even such a thing ???

We might talk about Proto-South-Slavic appearance in the context of Slavic migration to the Balkans.

There are sources which describe how those early Proto-South-Slavs looked like.

Łukasz M. Stanaszek, "Phenotype of old Slavs, 6th to 10th centuries" (in Polish + English summary):

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/swarch/Swiatowit-r2001-t3_%2844%29-nB-s205-212.pdf

It is in fact mostly about South Slavs, because that's whom the Byzantines first met and described.

Tomenable
03-05-2016, 02:26 PM
^ I mean "Slavs becoming South" (as back then they were just crossing the Danube and colonizing the Balkans).

leonardo
03-05-2016, 02:34 PM
Is there even such a thing ???


True. Generally speaking, I was noting the dolichocephalic nature and other facial features of the person.

sciencediver
03-05-2016, 03:11 PM
Let's not exaggerate in the other way around. They are both to some extent touched by the Slavic element - there was Slavic settlement as far as Peloponnesus in Greece, and there are also Slavic toponyms in Albania, especially in Tosk-speaking areas. As for Albanian-Greek similarity - yes one reason would be that both lived in the Balkans before Slavic migrations, but another reason is also - among others - Albanian settlement in Greece (groups such as Arvanites). For example Athens (and in fact most of Attica) used to have Albanian majority in 1830.

An excerpt from a book published in 1855 (it says that 25 years earlier, in 1830, Athens had Albanian majority):

http://s21.postimg.org/6lw13jhx3/Albanian_Athens.png

And of course my statement was about Non-Macedonian Greeks.

Because Macedonian Greeks are - actually - more genetically similar to South-Eastern Slavs than to Albanians.

I agree with your post more or less, I disagree about Albanians though. I have seen Albanians claim they used to be a majority in Athens, but I have yet to see any actual numbers confirming this. Also, Athens has been heavily settled by Greeks from other regions since.

Sikeliot
03-05-2016, 07:19 PM
So it seems that only Macedonian Greeks are similar to South Slavs (especially to South-East Slavs: Macedonians and Bulgarians).


This is IBD sharing, not autosomal ancestry.

Sikeliot
03-05-2016, 07:20 PM
That's because they're both untouched by the Slavic element, nothing more.

This isn't true. There is a Slavic element throughout Greece which is partially why mainland Greeks are not plotting with Sicilians and southern Italians on PCA plots and have different results from them on any genetic test.

sciencediver
03-05-2016, 08:18 PM
This isn't true. There is a Slavic element throughout Greece which is partially why mainland Greeks are not plotting with Sicilians and southern Italians on PCA plots and have different results from them on any genetic test.

Ok but as a whole if you take into consideration islanders as well, the Slavic element is not that important compared to the rest of the Balkans.

Tomenable
03-05-2016, 10:00 PM
But why should Sicilians or Southern Italians be identical with or even very similar to Greeks? Sure - there were numerous Greek colonies in those regions, but Greeks weren't native there, and they were just one among many peoples who have ever lived or settled there. Greek rules in that region were just part of its history. And ethnic Greeks were probably never the majority of inhabitants (they mostly settled in coastal cities, while inland areas continued to be inhabited by more indigenous tribes). There were also many other immigrant groups apart from Greeks.

Also an important factor was probably Hellenization - that is, adoption of Greek culture and language by Non-Greek locals.

Tomenable
03-05-2016, 10:17 PM
By the way - we need to remember, that modern Greeks are not really descended from Classical era Greeks (i.e. there is no "purity of blood" since the Classical era), but rather from Hellenistic era and Byzantine era Greeks. During those two eras - Hellenistic and Byzantine - a lot of Non-Greeks became Hellenized and became parts of the Greek ethnos. But the Slavic contribution was apparently relatively minor, compared to other ethnic groups - with the exception of Northern Greece, where amount of assimilated "Slavic blood" could be significant. Here is an interesting text:

http://www.theopavlidis.com/MidEast/part10.htm


Population Peaks and Modern Heritage

Modern Greeks like to emphasize their descent from Greeks of the classical era. A more realistic lineage is from Greeks of the Hellenistic era when the number of people identifying themselves as Greeks reached its peak. The number stayed high till the Arab conquest of the 7th century CE. That event started a series of steep declines, in particular, those that followed the Seljuk and Ottoman Turk conquests with conversions to Islam and adoption of other languages [SV71]. In the west the Greek population decline came as southern Italy and Sicily became part of Italian kingdoms with Greeks adopting both the western version of Christianity and the Italian language (although Greek was spoken in some villages till the 20th century). Therefore descendants of the Hellenistic period Greeks could be found not only in Greece but also in Italy, Turkey, Syria, Egypt, and other parts of the Middle East and Northern Africa. Because of population movements inhabitants of modern Greece descend not only from the Greeks of the classical era but also from Greeks of the largest area of the Hellenistic influence.

We may also ask what happened to the ancient people of Anatolia such as the Hittites, the Phrygians, and the Lydians who all had kingdoms during the 2000BCE to 500BCE period. Croesus (of extraordinary wealth fame) was the last king of Lydia. Gordias (of Gordian knot fame) and Midas (of the golden touch fame) were legendary kings of Phrygia. They all came under Persian rule around 500BCE and under Greek rule two hundred years later. Their descendants almost certainly ended up as Greek speaking subjects of the Hellenistic kingdoms.

This seems to be confirmed by studies of genetic markers. Barbujani and Sokal [BS90] gathered genetic markers from over 3000 European sites and plotted a surface of their distributions. Then they looked for places where there were discontinuities. There is a boundary in the north of Greece separating Greeks from the Slavs. But there are no boundaries along the Ionian or the Aegean seas (even though there is a boundary between Sicily and Malta). In other words, there are no significant genetic differences between Greeks and southern Italians or Greeks and western Turks.

This result is interesting in another way. During the German occupation of Greece during 1941-44, the Germans decreed that modern Greeks were not descendents of ancient Greeks (whom the Germans supposedly admired) but of Slavs, and therefore they could be mistreated accordingly. Of course the Barbujani and Sokal study [ibid] shows that whatever other contributions to modern Greeks exist, they are not Slavic.

Sikeliot
03-05-2016, 10:21 PM
But why should Sicilians or Southern Italians be identical with or even very similar to Greeks? Sure - there were numerous Greek colonies in those regions, but Greeks weren't native there, and they were just one among many peoples who have ever lived or settled there. Greek rules in that region were just part of its history. And ethnic Greeks were probably never the majority of inhabitants (they mostly settled in coastal cities, while inland areas continued to be inhabited by more indigenous tribes). There were also many other immigrant groups apart from Greeks.

Also an important factor was probably Hellenization - that is, adoption of Greek culture and language by Non-Greek locals.

So why would you suggest then that Sicilians and southern Italians are genetically closer to Cypriots and people in Crete than to the Greek mainland? There are some Sicilians who come closer to being similar to mainland Greeks, but they are not the most frequent. In general, Sicilians have a larger Levantine input and seem to be genetically closer to Jews.

The largest non-Greek influence in the Greek gene pool since ancient times was Albanian. Otherwise, Greeks are in fact descended from the ancient people.

Tomenable
03-05-2016, 10:31 PM
Today, there are about 10 million Greeks in Greece (and several million in Diaspora around the world).

In Ancient times, there could be - in absolute numbers - perhaps even more Greek-speaking and Greek-identifying people than today, despite the fact that the total population size of the Mediterranean world was much smaller than now. What it means is that today we have many Non-Greeks in various parts of Europe and MENA regions, who have some Ancient or Early Medieval Greeks / Greek-speakers among their ancestors.

Really, there is probably relatively more of "Greek blood" among Non-Greeks, than of "Non-Greek blood" among Greeks.

Slavic Macedonians might be right that they have some Ancient Greek/Macedonian ancestry. Even Dienekes admitted this. Of course Ancient Macedonians did not speak Slavic, but either a dialect of Greek or some Non-Greek but closely related Graeco-Phrygian language:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Phrygian


So why would you suggest then that Sicilians and southern Italians are genetically closer to Cypriots and people in Crete than to the Greek mainland?

The explanation is easy.

Cypriots & Cretans are more Neolithic (to a larger extent of "Old Europe" stock), while Mainland Greece is more Steppe-derived.

This situation could exist already in Ancient times, long before Slavic migrations. In which part of Greece did Indo-European migrations have most significant impact? Surely not in Crete and Cyprus, where Non-IE languages continued to be spoken longer than in Mainland Greece.

Minoan Crete was of course a Non-Indo-European, Non-Greek civilization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eteocretan_language

In Sicily and Southern Italy you have the same situation. Not to mention, that those areas were under Carthaginian and Arab influences, which increased Non-IE ancestry there (Carthaginian Punic-speakers were Semites with largely Levantine - Phoenician - ancestry).

Cypriots, Cretans, Sicilians and Southern Italians are more genetically similar to Sardinians, than are Mainland Greeks. That was almost certainly the case already in Mycenaean times, even though later each migration could change this situation in one way or another.


In general, Sicilians have a larger Levantine input and seem to be genetically closer to Jews.

Jews have hardly any ANE and WHG / EHG admixtures. Because they have hardly any Steppe Indo-European ancestry.

And this is also the case with Sicilians. Sure, they are a bit more Steppe-derived than Sardinians, but still largely Neolithic-like.

eastara
03-06-2016, 11:05 AM
Greeks are not a homogeneous ethnicity, according to 23andMe autosomally they range from 100% European for the Continental Greeks through considerable percent Middle East in West Anatolia and some of the island, to 100% Middle East for Cyprus and Pontic Greeks from South East Black Sea coast.
Of course only Balkan Greeks have potentially Slavic and Albanian admixture and some of it is very recent. Those further East are just Hellenised Anatolians and other non European ethnicities.
However most of the non converted Eastern Greeks were expelled from Anatolia and now a big mix up is going on in Greece, which eventually will homogenise the population to half European, half Anatolian.

sciencediver
03-06-2016, 01:27 PM
Greeks are not a homogeneous ethnicity, according to 23andMe autosomally they range from 100% European for the Continental Greeks through considerable percent Middle East in West Anatolia and some of the island, to 100% Middle East for Cyprus and Pontic Greeks from South East Black Sea coast.
Of course only Balkan Greeks have potentially Slavic and Albanian admixture and some of it is very recent. Those further East are just Hellenised Anatolians and other non European ethnicities.
However most of the non converted Eastern Greeks were expelled from Anatolia and now a big mix up is going on in Greece, which eventually will homogenise the population to half European, half Anatolian.

Nice propaganda right there. Cypriots come out as 50% Near East 50% European. As for Anatolian Greeks, they don't even differ from islanders if you want to go by 23andme. They come out as 75%+ European, with the exception of Pontic/Black Sea Greeks who show up as fully Near Eastern.

The mainlanders have already mixed with the refugees from Asia Minor since 1920, and their Near East score ranges from 0 to 15%.

Sikeliot
03-06-2016, 05:56 PM
Nice propaganda right there. Cypriots come out as 50% Near East 50% European. As for Anatolian Greeks, they don't even differ from islanders if you want to go by 23andme. They come out as 75%+ European, with the exception of Pontic/Black Sea Greeks who show up as fully Near Eastern.

The mainlanders have already mixed with the refugees from Asia Minor since 1920, and their Near East score ranges from 0 to 15%.

Mainland Greeks seem to on average have 0-1% Near Eastern on 23andme. Islanders range from 5-20%, like Sicilians. I have seen a few Anatolian Greek results and they are similar to the islanders.

Except for Pontic Greeks, who are more or less Hellenized Caucasian people, Greeks are not much if at all more Near Eastern now than before.

Volat
03-06-2016, 06:20 PM
Mainland Greeks seem to on average have 0-1% Near Eastern on 23andme. Islanders range from 5-20%, like Sicilians. I have seen a few Anatolian Greek results and they are similar to the islanders.

Except for Pontic Greeks, who are more or less Hellenized Caucasian people, Greeks are not much if at all more Near Eastern now than before.



MDLP has a sample of Greeks from Azov region (south-eastern Ukraine). They were moved from Crimea by Russian authorities after Russian empire defeated Crimea Khanate.

It appears this group of Pontic Greeks is similar to Greeks and north Caucasians.

> MOracle("Greek_Azov", k=50)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Greek_Azov" "0"
[2,] "Tatar_Crim" "10.5825"
[3,] "Greek_Cretan" "12.9259"
[4,] "Turk" "13.8156"
[5,] "Greek_Center" "15.8799"
[6,] "Cirkassian" "16.5816"
[7,] "Italian-Center" "18.2532"
[8,] "Italian-South" "18.5383"
[9,] "Sicilian" "19.1463"
[10,] "Balkarian" "19.7188"
[11,] "Kumyk" "19.8376"
[12,] "Cypriot" "20.0796"
[13,] "Nogai" "20.1621"
[14,] "Jew_Syria" "20.4746"
[15,] "Ashkenazim_V" "20.5762"
[16,] "Adygei" "20.7403"
[17,] "Kabardinian" "20.7434"
[18,] "Costanoan" "21.1981"
[19,] "Azeri" "21.3089"
[20,] "Ashkenazim" "21.3246"
[21,] "Georgian" "22.464"
[22,] "Lebanese" "22.5694"
[23,] "Sephardim" "23.5457"
[24,] "Armenian" "23.716"
[25,] "NorthOssetian" "23.8172"
[26,] "Kurd" "24.1715"
[27,] "Chechen" "24.2576"
[28,] "Druze" "24.2714"
[29,] "Syrian" "24.4712"
[30,] "Iraqi" "24.6213"
[31,] "Jew-Uzbekistan" "24.8131"
[32,] "Gagauz" "25.1062"
[33,] "Jew_Georgia" "25.4849"
[34,] "Turkmen" "26.1582"
[35,] "Iranian" "26.3646"
[36,] "Ossetian" "26.5085"
[37,] "Jew_Kurd" "27.1658"
[38,] "Romania" "27.3362"
[39,] "Georgian_Laz" "27.4213"
[40,] "Jew-Iraqi" "27.6827"
[41,] "Italian-North" "28.1261"
[42,] "Lezgin" "28.2025"
[43,] "Tabassaran" "28.5549"
[44,] "Bulgarian" "28.7235"
[45,] "Kosovar" "28.8796"
[46,] "Jew-Iran" "29.0845"
[47,] "Roma" "29.3985"
[48,] "Lak" "29.4696"
[49,] "Jordanian" "29.8491"
[50,] "Tadjik" "30.1607"

eastara
03-06-2016, 09:50 PM
Mainland Greeks seem to on average have 0-1% Near Eastern on 23andme. Islanders range from 5-20%, like Sicilians. I have seen a few Anatolian Greek results and they are similar to the islanders.

Except for Pontic Greeks, who are more or less Hellenized Caucasian people, Greeks are not much if at all more Near Eastern now than before.

Sorry, but the mixing of the Continental Greeks with the refugees from Anatolia is inevitable. I may be wrong it will be 50/50 European/Middle East, but it will increase with mixed marriages. Some Greeks from former Soviet Union emigrated to Greece only in the 1980s.
However, 23andMe even decreases the amount of Middle East, as some is included in the Balkan admixture. If you compare with Family Finder Middle East on the Balkans starts with the Croats at about 10%, Serbs 10-20%, Bulgarians have about 20-30, which is similar to Continental Greeks.

Illyro-Vlach
03-06-2016, 09:55 PM
Sorry, but the mixing of the Continental Greeks with the refugees from Anatolia is inevitable. I may be wrong it will be 50/50 European/Middle East, but it will increase with mixed marriages. Some Greeks from former Soviet Union emigrated to Greece only in the 1980s.
However, 23andMe even decreases the amount of Middle East, as some is included in the Balkan admixture. If you compare with Family Finder Middle East on the Balkans starts with the Croats at about 10%, Serbs 10-20%, Bulgarians have about 20-30, which is similar to Continental Greeks.

What do you mean by this percentages, Eastara? My 23andMe gave me 0/1% MENA, with it being assigned to North Africa. I think I'm missing something here.

eastara
03-06-2016, 10:23 PM
I am talking about the Middle East percent by FTDNA MyOrigin. For most Balkanians Middle East is mostly Anatolian(Asia Minor), but some have a small percent Levantine (Eastern Middle East) or even North Africa.

Sikeliot
03-08-2016, 05:02 PM
Sorry, but the mixing of the Continental Greeks with the refugees from Anatolia is inevitable.

"Anatolian Greeks" came from Greece and the islands though, and moved to Anatolia in ancient times! They are genetically within European range, they're NOT Hellenized Middle Eastern people.

Kanenas
05-17-2016, 09:25 PM
People who brought IE language to Greece were probably a mixture of R1a and R1b-Z2103, hard to say which was more numerous.

No. Classical Greeks were probably J2b, E-V13, R1b-Z2103 with some G, T etc. IE languages didn't spread with haplogroups R1a, R1b.

Tomenable
05-18-2016, 05:13 AM
Classical Greeks were already, just like modern Greeks, of mostly Non-Indo-European descent - at least the lower classes of their society.

I was talking about Proto-Greek invaders, who conquered & Indo-Europeanized Pelasgians and other Non-IE groups in what became Greece.

Gravetto-Danubian
05-18-2016, 05:21 AM
Classical Greeks were already, just like modern Greeks, of mostly Non-Indo-European descent - at least the lower classes of their society.

I was talking about Proto-Greek invaders, who conquered & Indo-Europeanized Pelasgians and other Non-IE groups in what became Greece.

You don't know that. We need aDNA to from other areas apart from Russia & Germany to make definite conclusions as to what is "IE" and what isn't; otherwise we risk making half-baked & biased conclusions.
What if it turns out that Mycenean Greeks & HIttites had barely any steppe admixture. When combined with the fact there is barely any archaeological evidence for steppe intrusions into Greece, how then are you going to posit IE became spoken in Greece ? A fashion trend ?

Tomenable
05-18-2016, 03:25 PM
When combined with the fact there is barely any archaeological evidence for steppe intrusions into Greece

There is also barely any archaeological evidence for Steppe intrusions into Britain, isn't it?

Because it was not directly from the Steppe. ;) The same in case of Greece.

Kanenas
05-25-2016, 02:32 AM
Classical Greeks were already, just like modern Greeks, of mostly Non-Indo-European descent - at least the lower classes of their society.

I was talking about Proto-Greek invaders, who conquered & Indo-Europeanized Pelasgians and other Non-IE groups in what became Greece.

I had written something offensive originally. What you read is the result of self-censorship because it doesn't worth it.

The first written account in Polish is from c. 1270 AD. The first written account in Lithuanian is from c. 1503 AD.

Is there a proof that the majority of the population spoke Slavic languages there since antiquity? I think not.

Since everything said about Early Slavs is highly speculative, I can keep my theory that R1a1 wasn't originally Slavic but 'Scythian' (ie Turkic, Uralic, 'Hunnic'? & not Iranian) and they were Slavicized as a result of their Christianization. Turkic Bulgar elite and native non-Slavic Balkanites adopted Slavic languages. Others could have done that too.

But even if I' am wrong isn't it interesting that the most 'pure' Indo-Europeans were the least developed in Antiquity and in Middle Ages?

That's not true only about Northeastern Europe, but if we trust Jordanes (a Goth) it's pretty much true even for Britain 1500 years ago.

Gravetto-Danubian
05-25-2016, 03:10 AM
There is also barely any archaeological evidence for Steppe intrusions into Britain, isn't it?

Because it was not directly from the Steppe. ;) The same in case of Greece.

Well Greece and Britain are very different: as the former requires a more complex permutation of scenarios which we can only tentatively guess for now. To be sure, IE definitely came from somewhere outside the Balkans & Greece after Copper age. Basically, it can only be from west Pontic, North Pontic or west- Central Asia

I have a hypothesis but won't speculate too much for now ;)

Gravetto-Danubian
05-25-2016, 03:47 AM
I had written something offensive originally. What you read is the result of self-censorship because it doesn't worth it.

The first written account in Polish is from c. 1270 AD. The first written account in Lithuanian is from c. 1503 AD.

Is there a proof that the majority of the population spoke Slavic languages there since antiquity? I think not.

Since everything said about Early Slavs is highly speculative, I can keep my theory that R1a1 wasn't originally Slavic but 'Scythian' (ie Turkic, Uralic, 'Hunnic'? & not Iranian) and they were Slavicized as a result of their Christianization. Turkic Bulgar elite and native non-Slavic Balkanites adopted Slavic languages. Others could have done that too.

But even if I' am wrong isn't it interesting that the most 'pure' Indo-Europeans were the least developed in Antiquity and in Middle Ages?

That's not true only about Northeastern Europe, but if we trust Jordanes (a Goth) it's pretty much true even for Britain 1500 years ago.

Don't get irate. It seems all the emphasis is on northern Europe now (Russia, Germany), but more aDNA is coming from Greece. It might teach us a thing or two we didn't know ?

Population development went in ebbs & flows. Central Europe and northern Europe had better environments for hunter-gatherers, the "best" Neolithic areas were central Balkans, the late Neolithic / Copper Age saw the rise of eastern European centres, and during the Bronze Age - Greece & Anatolia. People moved to & from all regions. We don't need to see it as any kind of competition, even if some make antagonizing remarks.

Waldemar
05-25-2016, 08:05 AM
The first written account in Polish is from c. 1270 AD.

We have examples of personal and place names in Polish language since the late 10th century (check Thietmari Chronicon (http://hbar.phys.msu.su/gorm/chrons/thietmar.htm): Miseco, Cidebur, Suentepulc, Bolizlav, Posnan, Wrotizlae, Cracuae, Gnesin, etc.) or earlier if e.g. rulers of Poland known from Gesta principum Polonorum (compiled in c.1113-1116), such as Semimizl, Lestik, Semovith really existed.

The Gniezno Bull (Polish: Bulla gnieźnieńska) a papal bull containing 410 Polish names, published 7 July 1136
http://www.dialektologia.uw.edu.pl/cmsimg/WpnF008.JPG
This document in Polish Wikisource (https://pl.wikisource.org/wiki/Bulla_gnie%C5%BAnie%C5%84ska)

In Frankish Annals we have for example "Milegast (...) regis Wilzorum" (ruler of Veleti in 823 AD) and in the Gniezno Bull we have a place name "Malogost".

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi%C5%82ogost_%28imi%C4%99%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C5%82ogoszcz

As Einhard (ca.775-840 AD), biographer of Charlemagne wrote:
"A certain gulf [i.e., the Baltic] with an unknown length and a width no more than a hundred miles wide and in many places [much] narrower runs from the western ocean towards the east (...) The Slavs [Sclavi], Aisti and other peoples live along the southern shore. The Welatabi [Veleti] were the most prominent of these peoples (...) peoples inhabiting Germania between the Rhine and Vistula rivers, the ocean and the Danube. They almost all speak a similar language, but are very different from each other in customs and appearance. Among these peoples the Welatabi, Sorbs, Obotrites and Bohemians are of special importance"

Waldemar
05-25-2016, 09:33 AM
The first written account in Lithuanian is from c. 1503 AD.

The so-called Elbing Vocabulary from the beginning of the 14th or the end of the 13th century lists 802 thematically sorted words and their German equivalents in the Old Prussian language.

http://donelaitis.vdu.lt/prussian/Elbin.pdf

Some place names in the Old Prussian language are listed for example in the treaty of Christiborc signed on 7 February 1249.

1. "in villa, que vocatur Pozoloue, que alio nomine vocatur Rutiz"
2. "in villa, que vocatur Pastelina"
3. "in loco, que vocatur Lingues"
4. "in loco, qui dicitur Lyopiez"
5. "Chomor Sancti Adalberti"
6. "in Bobuz"
7. "in Geria"
8. "in Geria"
9. "in Prozile"
10. "in Resia"
11. "circa antiquum Christiborc"
12. "Raydez"
13. "novo Christiborc"

http://s27.postimg.org/edln8g69f/Screen_Hunter_1290_Feb_24_13_22.jpg
Source (http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Komunikaty_Mazursko_Warminskie/Komunikaty_Mazursko_Warminskie-r2013-t-n1/Komunikaty_Mazursko_Warminskie-r2013-t-n1-s19-45/Komunikaty_Mazursko_Warminskie-r2013-t-n1-s19-45.pdf)

"Literae Iacobi Leodiensis ecclesiae archidiaconi, domini papae capellani, in Polonia, Prussia, Pomerania vicegerentis, pro Pruthenis neophytis datae" (Treaty of Christiborc)
http://s23.postimg.org/dbuuavv61/p0005.png
Source (http://www.dbc.wroc.pl/dlibra/doccontent?id=14278)

Ibrahim ibn Ya’qub about the language of the Prussians (ca.965 AD):
"Mieszko [of Poland] is bordered to the east by the Rus and to the north by Prussia. The inhabitants of Prussia live on the shore of the Surrounding Sea [east of the Vistula; see here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4967-The-origin-of-the-Slavs/page92)]. They have their own language, and do not know the languages of their neighbours."

S. Adalberti Pragensis episcopi et martyris vita I (997 AD) in Polish:
"[Sw. Wojciech] przewieziony został do Prus. [Tam] zatrzymał się u pewnego Prusa, który znał język polski, wkrótce go nawrócił i nauczył się od niego mowy pruskiej"
Source (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=126973074&postcount=1988)

Volat
05-25-2016, 09:50 AM
I The first written account in Lithuanian is from c. 1503 AD. .

Just because written account of Lithuanian language is relatively late does not mean the language was not spoken for thousands years prior to this time. German and Ruthenian chronicles accounted for Balts in 11th century. Romans accounted for Balts in 100AD. The very language Lithuanians speak consisting of many archaisms and Lithuanian mythology are the evidence of ancient Indo-European culture preserved in east Baltic region. As one early German linguist stated if you want to hear how early IE spoke, then listen to speech of Lithuanian peasant. Or something along those line.

Genetic studies have also shown that modern Lithuanians have a lot of steppe-like (IE) ancestry.

The same applies to Slavic languages. Slavs of the Balkans are a marginal group of Slavdom, who migrated to the Balkans in the last 1,500 years. In saying this I mean not disrespect to them, as they are important part of Slavdom responsible for introducing Christianity and first Slavic alphabet. In comparison to all southern Europeans from Portugal to the Balkans, southern Slavs are genetically most northern group of people. This confirms their northern origins.

Gravetto-Danubian
05-25-2016, 09:57 AM
Just because written account of Lithuanian language is relatively late does not mean the language was not spoken for thousands years prior to this time. German and Ruthenian chronicles accounted for Balts in 11th century. Romans accounted for Balts in 100AD. The very language Lithuanians speak consisting of many archaisms and Lithuanian mythology are the evidence of ancient Indo-European culture preserved in east Baltic region. As one early German linguist stated if you want to hear how early IE spoke, then listen to speech of Lithuanian peasant. Or something along those line.

Genetic studies have also shown that modern Lithuanians have a lot of steppe-like (IE) ancestry.

The same applies to Slavic languages. Slavs of the Balkans are a marginal group of Slavdom, who migrated to the Balkans in the last 1,500 years. In saying this I mean not disrespect to them, as they are important part of Slavdom responsible for introducing Christianity and first Slavic alphabet. In comparison to all southern Europeans from Portugal to the Balkans, southern Slavs are genetically most northern group of people. This confirms their northern origins.

I think you mean the vanguard ;)

But let's not derail this thread. All cultures and people in Europe have fascinating history
I think Kanenas just got irate by some of Tomenable's wording & concepts- which I think he's working on

Kanenas
05-25-2016, 11:26 AM
Just because written account of Lithuanian language is relatively late does not mean the language was not spoken for thousands years prior to this time. German and Ruthenian chronicles accounted for Balts in 11th century. Romans accounted for Balts in 100AD. The very language Lithuanians speak consisting of many archaisms and Lithuanian mythology are the evidence of ancient Indo-European culture preserved in east Baltic region. As one early German linguist stated if you want to hear how early IE spoke, then listen to speech of Lithuanian peasant. Or something along those line.

Genetic studies have also shown that modern Lithuanians have a lot of steppe-like (IE) ancestry.

The same applies to Slavic languages. Slavs of the Balkans are a marginal group of Slavdom, who migrated to the Balkans in the last 1,500 years. In saying this I mean not disrespect to them, as they are important part of Slavdom responsible for introducing Christianity and first Slavic alphabet. In comparison to all southern Europeans from Portugal to the Balkans, southern Slavs are genetically most northern group of people. This confirms their northern origins.

Steppe-like ancestry is though to be IE-related but it isn't in my opinion and it cannot be proven yet. Besides that how much steppe-related ancestry have the following non-IE groups: Estonians, Udmurts, Magyars, Chuvash, Bashkirs, Tatars, Finns, Kyrgyz etc.?

Volat
05-25-2016, 11:42 AM
Steppe-like ancestry is though to be IE-related but it isn't in my opinion and it cannot be proven yet. Besides that how much steppe-related ancestry have the following non-IE groups: Estonians, Udmurts, Magyars, Chuvash, Bashkirs, Tatars, Finns, Kyrgyz etc.?



Estonians have plenty steppe-like ancestry. Baltic Finnic language was spread into Estonia around 3,500 years ago. IE people of Corded Ware of Estonia were culturally assimilated. That's the common view of modern Finnish and Estonians scholars. Volgaic Finns such as Erzya also have plenty of steppe like ancestry. Finns also have plenty. Magyars are genetically not much different to Croats, Slovaks and Slovenes. Chuvash, Bashkirs, Kyrgyz have less IE ancestry. A lot of people living in Volga-Ural region have plenty of IE ancestry because earliest IE lived in the vicinity. On the other hand Greece has plenty middle-eastern ancestry due geographic proximity to the region.

Waldemar
05-25-2016, 12:08 PM
Romans accounted for Balts in 100AD.

But Tacitus' description of the language of Aestii is rather confusing..."Turning, therefore, to the right hand shore of the Suevici sea, we find it washing the country of the Aestiorum, who have the same customs and fashions as the Suevorum, but a language more like the Britannicae."

Kanenas
05-25-2016, 12:43 PM
As Einhard (ca.775-840 AD), biographer of Charlemagne wrote:
"A certain gulf [i.e., the Baltic] with an unknown length and a width no more than a hundred miles wide and in many places [much] narrower runs from the western ocean towards the east (...) The Slavs [Sclavi], Aisti and other peoples live along the southern shore. The Welatabi [Veleti] were the most prominent of these peoples (...) peoples inhabiting Germania between the Rhine and Vistula rivers, the ocean and the Danube. They almost all speak a similar language, but are very different from each other in customs and appearance. Among these peoples the Welatabi, Sorbs, Obotrites and Bohemians are of special importance"

Thanks for that reference. I haven't looked the original text yet but while googling I found this http://www.jassa.org/?p=1625

First of all we should agree on what the region he describes is. The following map is helpful
http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/euriv.gif

I thinks it's obvious that the text refers to Germany, Western Poland, Czech Republic and maybe a part of Western Slovakia and Northern Austria.

If we agree on that we should look the text again

“… Then he subordinated and made tributary all the rough and uncivilized peoples inhabiting Germany between the Rhine and Vistula rivers, the ocean and the Danube. They almost all speak a similar language, but are very different from each other in customs and appearance. Among these peoples the Welatabi, Sorbs, Obotrites and Bohemians are of special importance, and he came into armed conflict with all of them. Other peoples [living there], who far outnumbered them, simply surrendered.”

We should pay attention to two things 1) 'Almost all' speak the same language and 2) "Other peoples [living there], who far outnumbered them, simply surrendered."

Volat
05-25-2016, 01:02 PM
But Tacitus' description of the language of Aestii is rather confusing..."Turning, therefore, to the right hand shore of the Suevici sea, we find it washing the country of the Aestiorum, who have the same customs and fashions as the Suevorum, but a language more like the Britannicae."

Some Romans also accounted for Galindians in 100AD.

Waldemar
05-25-2016, 01:15 PM
1) 'Almost all' speak the same language

Non-Slavic would be Avars, Bulgars, Aestii, etc.


and 2) "Other peoples [living there], who far outnumbered them, simply surrendered."

Other peoples [not mentioned by name, so not Welatabi, Sorbs, Obotrites and Bohemians] (...)


Some Romans also accounted for Galindians in 100AD.

Galindoi - Γαλίνδοι are mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD, and then after nearly 1000 years gap (!) by the Russian chronicles as Goliadj in 1058. How do we know that Ptolemy's Galindoi were the same people as Goliadj?

Do we know any Baltic place and personal names from the pre-1100s AD contemporary written sources?

PS. Between Ptolemy's "Greater Venedae" and certainly Slavic Venethi we have a ~400 years gap (if not counting Tabula Peutingeriana and other debatable sources which could even shorten the gap) and still many researchers claim they were different people.

Volat
05-25-2016, 01:44 PM
Galindoi - Γαλίνδοι are mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD, and then after nearly 1000 years gap (!) by the Russian chronicles as Goliadj in 1058. How do we know that Ptolemy's Galindoi were the same people as Goliadj?

Do we know any Baltic place and personal names from the pre-1100s AD contemporary written sources?

PS. Between Ptolemy's "Greater Venedae" and certainly Slavic Venethi we have a ~400 years gap (if not counting Tabula Peutingeriana and other debatable sources) and people still claim they could be different people.

There's 1000 year gap between Galindoi of Ptolemy and 1,100 of Golyad in Russian chronciles. Majority historians suggested those were Baltic peoples.

Waldemar
05-25-2016, 01:56 PM
Majority historians suggested those were Baltic peoples.

Let's wait for aDNA...We shall see if they were right.

Kanenas
05-25-2016, 02:23 PM
Also, about 'Greeks having Middle Eastern ancestry due to geographical proximity'.
The Greeks have medieval and modern admixture with Christianized people from the North/North-East. Without the recent Slavic (and ''Scythian'?) admixture we would have been more 'Middle Eastern'. And if we had ancient Greek aDNA it would have been proven imo.

I believe that areas like Cyprus, patrilineary at least, are closer to 'Proto-Greeks'. If the 'Proto-Greeks' had R1a1 they would have brought it with them there and that didn't happen. On the contrary, it seems that those who came from the Balkans to Cyprus brought with them J2 and E-V13.

Volat
05-25-2016, 06:33 PM
Let's wait for aDNA...We shall see if they were right.


Balts may not be genetically homogeneous 1,000-2,00- years ago. There's also a genetic drift over time.

Waldemar
05-25-2016, 06:43 PM
Well, we will see...


DNA suggests that Montenegro (or Balkans in general; if we can generalize) saw even more significant turnovers from the Bronze Age to present-day than did Suvalkija/Suwalszczyzna region (or Poland-Lithuania / Central-East Europe in general). Or maybe turnovers were not more significant there, but immigration / repopulation was from more distant regions, and by more genetically distinct populations, while turnovers in Central-East Europe were indeed local. LBA man RISE598 (his Y-DNA haplogroup was R1a) from Turlojiske at the Polish-Lithuanian border, is autosomally located within the range for modern Poles on this PCA chart; by contrast LBA and IA Montenegrin women RISE595 and RISE596 are not only far from each other (suggesting migrations by genetically distinct populations between LBA and IA), but also both are far from modern Montenegrins:

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2016/02/pca-of-rise595-rise596-and-rise598.html

https://s22.postimg.org/4dr0dumoh/Montenegro+Poland+eng.png

Waldemar
05-26-2016, 10:12 AM
We have examples of personal and place names in Polish language since the late 10th century (check Thietmari Chronicon (http://hbar.phys.msu.su/gorm/chrons/thietmar.htm): Miseco, Cidebur, Suentepulc, Bolizlav, Posnan, Wrotizlae, Cracuae, Gnesin, etc.) or earlier if e.g. rulers of Poland known from Gesta principum Polonorum (compiled in c.1113-1116), such as Semimizl, Lestik, Semovith really existed.

Thietmari Chronicon's page
http://s33.postimg.org/o20w01mb3/thietmar066a.jpg
Source (http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de/thietmar/fol.0071.html)

Dorkymon
05-26-2016, 10:53 AM
Judging by the existence of Aromanian communities in Greece, and especially in the Northern part, throughout the ages and their assimilation into the Greek nation, I would suppose that a significant proportion of the Slavic-like DNA is explained by them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Aromanians

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/albania/balkan-vlachs-born-assimilate

Tomenable
05-26-2016, 04:57 PM
I believe that areas like Cyprus, patrilineary at least, are closer to 'Proto-Greeks'.

Why would you think so? Aren't "Greeks" from Cyprus just Hellenized natives ???

What mean, is that Greeks from Cyprus are Greeks culturally, but not by descent.

Cypriots are genetically much closer to peoples of Levantine origin, including Jews.


it seems that those who came from the Balkans to Cyprus brought with them J2 and E-V13.

How many Greeks in your opinion actually came to Cyprus from the Balkans, though?

It seems to me that most of Cypriots are native to their island for thousands of years. Also remember that we have both Turks and Greeks in Cyprus, but genetically they are similar, if I'm not mistaken.

So probably both groups are of local origin - Turkicized Cypriots and Hellenized Cypriots.

Tomenable
05-26-2016, 05:06 PM
These two groups are similar in numbers (both >1 million):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Cypriots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Cypriots

Are there any noticeable genetic differences between them?

If there are no differences between Turks from Cyprus and Greeks from Cyprus, it indicates that "becoming Turk" and "becoming Greek" were both cultural things, and that both of these groups are genetically Non-Greek and Non-Turkic alike, but of native Cypriot stock, who adopted foreign languages and cultures.

Tomenable
05-26-2016, 05:10 PM
Agamemnon wrote in another thread:


IIRC the are no significant differences between Turkish and Greek Cypriots from a genetic standpoint.

Even the Y-DNA frequencies seem to be relatively similar.

Kanenas
05-26-2016, 08:38 PM
Why would you think so? Aren't "Greeks" from Cyprus just Hellenized natives ???

What mean, is that Greeks from Cyprus are Greeks culturally, but not by descent.

Cypriots are genetically much closer to peoples of Levantine origin, including Jews.


No. Pre-Greeks existed in both mainland Greece and in Cyprus and mainland Greece has more modern North-Eastern admixture. (There were no Sclaviniae in Cyprus). In my opinion the Pre-Greeks who were not assimilated early are less likely to have any descendants.

First of all, we should agree that the 'Proto-Greeks' didn't have R1a1. For me, that's important for any further discussion, since I find anything else more possible. If the Myceneans were R1a1 we would expect it to have been higher in Cyprus (and in the areas were the Greeks settled in general).

Especially if 'Indo-Europeans were highly patriarchal and patrilinear' as a Polish blogger says.

During Ottoman occupation there was a relative advantage for those who became Muslims, so that explains turkification.

Becoming a 'Slav' is more of cultural thing than becoming a 'Greek'. I' am sure both things have happened though.

Kanenas
05-26-2016, 09:06 PM
I should clarify that for me admixture isn't bad and a Greek of 'Slavic' or 'Levantine' origin is no less of a Greek for me.

We have documented Arvanitic, Vlach and 'Slavic' presence in Greece since the Middle Ages. That's not true about Cyprus. I personally believe that the Arvanites and the Vlachs were pretty close to Greeks genetically but modern admixture made Greeks more Balkan-shifted. Both R1a1 and I2a are higher in the native inhabitants of Greek Macedonia.

I also said that I believe Cyprus is comparatively closer to 'Proto-Greeks' patrilineary. It's not impossible that their women were more Levantine.

When I first saw that the Greeks have quite a lot of E-V13 and Albanians have even more I wondered can we attribute it to Arvanites? That would make sense if it didn't existed in Cyprus. But the frequencies there are comparable so even if we label it 'Pre-Greek' it was part of 'Hellenes' and their expansion in Mediterranean early on.

AJL
05-26-2016, 09:09 PM
First of all, we should agree that the 'Proto-Greeks' didn't have R1a1.

I'm not sure if you have seen this paper (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html). Naturally there were ancient non-Hellenic people on Crete, and perhaps the R1a there corresponds to Minoans, but I am not sure we can be certain R1a was entirely absent from proto-Greeks.

Gravetto-Danubian
05-26-2016, 11:09 PM
No. Pre-Greeks existed in both mainland Greece and in Cyprus and mainland Greece has more modern North-Eastern admixture. (There were no Sclaviniae in Cyprus). In my opinion the Pre-Greeks who were not assimilated early are less likely to have any descendants.

First of all, we should agree that the 'Proto-Greeks' didn't have R1a1. For me, that's important for any further discussion, since I find anything else more possible. If the Myceneans were R1a1 we would expect it to have been higher in Cyprus (and in the areas were the Greeks settled in general).

Especially if 'Indo-Europeans were highly patriarchal and patrilinear' as a Polish blogger says.


I think that's a fair assessment.


I should clarify that for me admixture isn't bad and a Greek of 'Slavic' or 'Levantine' origin is no less of a Greek for me.

Indeed. There'd probably be no Greece now if not for the Medieval admixture, because the region was demographically devastated in the 6th century.



When I first saw that the Greeks have quite a lot of E-V13 and Albanians have even more I wondered can we attribute it to Arvanites? That would make sense if it didn't existed in Cyprus. But the frequencies there are comparable so even if we label it 'Pre-Greek' it was part of 'Hellenes' and their expansion in Mediterranean early on.

As ive said elsewhere, we lack resolution of E-V13 in SEE & Europe as a whole. E M78 was already present by the late Neolithic (Sopot culture). But its subsequent phasing with all the ebbs & flows remains to be determined.

Sikeliot
05-28-2016, 03:56 AM
I doubt mainland Greeks were ever autosomally like Cypriots. There is no way they could have been substantially different from their northern neighbors. Also, the regions of Sicily with the most Greek input like Enna and Ragusa/Syracuse still shift slightly northeast of other Sicilians, who are more like Cypriots by contrast.

On GEDmatch, mainland Greeks come up like 75% Sicilian, 25% Russian. So if we assume that the original Greeks were like Cypriots, their Slavic DNA is even higher than 25%.

Gravetto-Danubian
05-28-2016, 04:15 AM
I doubt mainland Greeks were ever autosomally like Cypriots. There is no way they could have been substantially different from their northern neighbors. Also, the regions of Sicily with the most Greek input like Enna and Ragusa/Syracuse still shift slightly northeast of other Sicilians, who are more like Cypriots by contrast.

On GEDmatch, mainland Greeks come up like 75% Sicilian, 25% Russian. So if we assume that the original Greeks were like Cypriots, their Slavic DNA is even higher than 25%.

but remember that pre-Iron Age 'Thrace', to cite a 'northern enighbour', was very different to modern South Slavs. So, 25% is a rather conservative but realistic estimate. The figure probably approaches 50% in the Hellenized part of south Macedonia

Sikeliot
05-28-2016, 04:32 AM
but remember that pre-Iron Age 'Thrace', to cite a 'northern enighbour', was very different to modern South Slavs. So, 25% is a rather conservative but realistic estimate. The figure probably approaches 50% in the Hellenized part of south Macedonia

Well the 25% estimate is for results I have seen from Peloponnese. If you consider that Aegean islanders are similar to southern Italians, Peloponnese may be 25% Slavic if we assume they were once like modern day Aegean people.

Gravetto-Danubian
05-28-2016, 04:37 AM
Well the 25% estimate is for results I have seen from Peloponnese. If you consider that Aegean islanders are similar to southern Italians, Peloponnese may be 25% Slavic if we assume they were once like modern day Aegean people.

Oh yep. I agree. Sorry, I didn't realise you were referring to Peloponessus.

Sikeliot
05-28-2016, 04:43 AM
Oh yep. I agree. Sorry, I didn't realise you were referring to Peloponessus.


This is a Peloponnesian on one of the GEDmatch calculators PuntDNA-L K15. From far southern Greece (Lakonia). They are NE European shifted enough to come up halfway between Poles and Cypriots even.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.1% Cypriot + 42.9% Polish @ 1.41
2 53.6% Croatian + 46.4% Cypriot @ 1.47
3 51.5% Hungarian + 48.5% Cypriot @ 1.47
4 50.2% Slovenian + 49.8% Cypriot @ 1.5
5 50.4% Austrian + 49.6% Cypriot @ 1.85
6 72.9% Macedonian + 27.1% Druze @ 1.94
7 55.2% Cypriot + 44.8% Swedish @ 1.95
8 94.7% Greek_Thessaly + 5.3% Yemenese @ 1.97
9 60% Serbian + 40% Cypriot @ 1.98
10 75.3% Bulgarian + 24.7% Assyrian @ 2.02
11 66.5% Bosnian + 33.5% Cypriot @ 2.04
12 94.9% Greek_Thessaly + 5.1% Bedouin_A @ 2.06
13 96.3% Greek_Thessaly + 3.7% Saudi @ 2.06
14 52.2% Cypriot + 47.8% North_German @ 2.06
15 60.5% Cypriot + 39.5% Belarusian @ 2.09
16 77.2% Montenegrin + 22.8% Assyrian @ 2.13
17 63% Serbian + 37% Samaritian @ 2.14
18 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% Syrian @ 2.17
19 62.7% Cypriot + 37.3% Lithuanian @ 2.18
20 96.7% Greek_Thessaly + 3.3% Amhara @ 2.18

Morges
05-29-2016, 07:45 AM
I doubt mainland Greeks were ever autosomally like Cypriots. There is no way they could have been substantially different from their northern neighbors. Also, the regions of Sicily with the most Greek input like Enna and Ragusa/Syracuse still shift slightly northeast of other Sicilians, who are more like Cypriots by contrast.

On GEDmatch, mainland Greeks come up like 75% Sicilian, 25% Russian. So if we assume that the original Greeks were like Cypriots, their Slavic DNA is even higher than 25%.

Actually the most northern province is Trapani but Sicilians are genetically very close each other without big differences from area to area. There aren't barriers...
But anyway you mean that we are genetically like Cypriots?I'm surprised of this statement by you since you've seen tens of studies and autosomal results, we're a lot close to mainland southern neighbors as well as islander Greeks but not Cypriots who are genetically almost Lebanese and quite distant from us. I hope I have misunderstood your statement.

Morges
05-29-2016, 07:50 AM
This is a Peloponnesian on one of the GEDmatch calculators PuntDNA-L K15. From far southern Greece (Lakonia). They are NE European shifted enough to come up halfway between Poles and Cypriots even.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.1% Cypriot + 42.9% Polish @ 1.41
2 53.6% Croatian + 46.4% Cypriot @ 1.47
3 51.5% Hungarian + 48.5% Cypriot @ 1.47
4 50.2% Slovenian + 49.8% Cypriot @ 1.5
5 50.4% Austrian + 49.6% Cypriot @ 1.85
6 72.9% Macedonian + 27.1% Druze @ 1.94
7 55.2% Cypriot + 44.8% Swedish @ 1.95
8 94.7% Greek_Thessaly + 5.3% Yemenese @ 1.97
9 60% Serbian + 40% Cypriot @ 1.98
10 75.3% Bulgarian + 24.7% Assyrian @ 2.02
11 66.5% Bosnian + 33.5% Cypriot @ 2.04
12 94.9% Greek_Thessaly + 5.1% Bedouin_A @ 2.06
13 96.3% Greek_Thessaly + 3.7% Saudi @ 2.06
14 52.2% Cypriot + 47.8% North_German @ 2.06
15 60.5% Cypriot + 39.5% Belarusian @ 2.09
16 77.2% Montenegrin + 22.8% Assyrian @ 2.13
17 63% Serbian + 37% Samaritian @ 2.14
18 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% Syrian @ 2.17
19 62.7% Cypriot + 37.3% Lithuanian @ 2.18
20 96.7% Greek_Thessaly + 3.3% Amhara @ 2.18

We need autosomal, Y and mt analysis of ancient Greeks aDNA to understand if mainland Greeks have absorbed Slavic blood in quantity to change radically their genetic make up.

Volat
05-29-2016, 11:15 AM
Actually the most northern province is Trapani but Sicilians are genetically very close each other without big differences from area to area. There aren't barriers...
But anyway you mean that we are genetically like Cypriots?I'm surprised of this statement by you since you've seen tens of studies and autosomal results, we're a lot close to mainland southern neighbors as well as islander Greeks but not Cypriots who are genetically almost Lebanese and quite distant from us. I hope I have misunderstood your statement.

Among Greeks, Cretan Greeks could be genetically the most similar group to Sicilians.

Morges
05-29-2016, 11:17 PM
Among Greeks, Cretan Greeks could be genetically the most similar group to Sicilians.

Yes as well as other aegean islanders.

Gravetto-Danubian
05-29-2016, 11:28 PM
We need autosomal, Y and mt analysis of ancient Greeks aDNA to understand if mainland Greeks have absorbed Slavic blood in quantity to change radically their genetic make up.

Yes it would be nice, but it's already obvious,
Have you read any history or archaeology on Greece ?

Morges
05-29-2016, 11:32 PM
Yes it would be nice, but it's already obvious,
Have you read any history or archaeology on Greece ?

Yes especially ancient history too.

Agamemnon
05-30-2016, 12:14 AM
Yes it would be nice, but it's already obvious,
Have you read any history or archaeology on Greece ?

While Slavic input in mainland Greece isn't just obvious but undeniable as well, its impact is anything but obvious, ancient DNA would certainly prove useful in quantifying the actual amount of Slavic admixture.

Kanenas
05-30-2016, 01:38 PM
I doubt mainland Greeks were ever autosomally like Cypriots. There is no way they could have been substantially different from their northern neighbors. Also, the regions of Sicily with the most Greek input like Enna and Ragusa/Syracuse still shift slightly northeast of other Sicilians, who are more like Cypriots by contrast.

On GEDmatch, mainland Greeks come up like 75% Sicilian, 25% Russian. So if we assume that the original Greeks were like Cypriots, their Slavic DNA is even higher than 25%.

The Northern neighbors have even more Slavic and Turkic (Bulgar, Cuman etc.) admixture.

Kanenas
05-30-2016, 01:49 PM
This is a Peloponnesian on one of the GEDmatch calculators PuntDNA-L K15. From far southern Greece (Lakonia). They are NE European shifted enough to come up halfway between Poles and Cypriots even.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.1% Cypriot + 42.9% Polish @ 1.41
2 53.6% Croatian + 46.4% Cypriot @ 1.47
3 51.5% Hungarian + 48.5% Cypriot @ 1.47
4 50.2% Slovenian + 49.8% Cypriot @ 1.5
5 50.4% Austrian + 49.6% Cypriot @ 1.85
6 72.9% Macedonian + 27.1% Druze @ 1.94
7 55.2% Cypriot + 44.8% Swedish @ 1.95
8 94.7% Greek_Thessaly + 5.3% Yemenese @ 1.97
9 60% Serbian + 40% Cypriot @ 1.98
10 75.3% Bulgarian + 24.7% Assyrian @ 2.02
11 66.5% Bosnian + 33.5% Cypriot @ 2.04
12 94.9% Greek_Thessaly + 5.1% Bedouin_A @ 2.06
13 96.3% Greek_Thessaly + 3.7% Saudi @ 2.06
14 52.2% Cypriot + 47.8% North_German @ 2.06
15 60.5% Cypriot + 39.5% Belarusian @ 2.09
16 77.2% Montenegrin + 22.8% Assyrian @ 2.13
17 63% Serbian + 37% Samaritian @ 2.14
18 93.8% Greek_Thessaly + 6.2% Syrian @ 2.17
19 62.7% Cypriot + 37.3% Lithuanian @ 2.18
20 96.7% Greek_Thessaly + 3.3% Amhara @ 2.18

You make too many assumptions without knowing anything about Greek history. The assumption that 'far Southern Greece' will have less Slavic admixture is flawed. It depends.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezeritai

Volat
05-30-2016, 03:34 PM
Razib Khan has a short article on Greeks with Slavic ancestry generating a TreeMix tree with arrows showing migrations.



To tease the relationships apart I decided to run TreeMix 20 times. As per reader suggestion, I won’t give you all the plots. But you can download them. Below is a representative one. The various Jewish groups form their own clade. The affinity of Cypriot Greeks with Anatolians is a function I believe of the fact that they are culturally Hellenized (the ancient Bronze Age polity of Cyprus was part of the orbit of Egypt, and was not Greek), even if that is an ancient occurrence. I separated the Greeks into two cluster, the major one being “Greece” and the minor one clustering with southern Italians as “GreeceItaly.” What is pretty obvious is that GreeceItaly has much less of the Slavic admixture. In this tree the Greeks proper are placed near the Balkan and Polish position on the graph, but with a huge migration arrow from nearly the GreeceItaly position. The Balkan node has a smaller migration parameter. The Greeks tend to flip from being near the Poles to being near the GreekItaly cluster, and swapping the migration arrow direction.http://www.unz.com/gnxp/greeks-with-slavic-ancestry-and-without/



http://s33.postimg.org/ut34cunzj/Greece_Out16.jpg

Thunor
05-31-2016, 05:22 PM
Greece was ruled by Ottoman Turks for more than 500 years. Few Slavic raids won't turn Greeks in the Poles of Southern Europe.

Sikeliot
05-31-2016, 05:48 PM
Greece was ruled by Ottoman Turks for more than 500 years. Few Slavic raids won't turn Greeks in the Poles of Southern Europe.

And you see how little impact Turks had genetically.

You can artificially create a genetic Greek (or someone indistinguishable autosomally) by mixing 3 Sicilian grandparents and 1 Russian.

Morges
05-31-2016, 05:50 PM
And you see how little impact Turks had genetically.

You can artificially create a genetic Greek (or someone indistinguishable autosomally) by mixing 3 Sicilian grandparents and 1 Russian.

A continental non-Anatolian Greek but not an islander who is quite similar to a Sicilian or a Calabrese.

sciencediver
05-31-2016, 07:01 PM
Greece was ruled by Ottoman Turks for more than 500 years. Few Slavic raids won't turn Greeks in the Poles of Southern Europe.

Since when your rulers have anything to do with your genetics? Do I have to remind you that Asia Minor was Roman/Greek before becoming Turkish?


more than 500 years
less actually


won't turn Greeks in the Poles of Southern Europe

Compared to Italy or Iberia, the mainland has a big chunk of slavic admixture.

Morges
05-31-2016, 07:26 PM
Since when your rulers have anything to do with your genetics?
Since it regards some zones, I've read a lot of messages on here and on some other forums were Southern Italians are accused to be half Arabs when the muslim military rule was only in Sicily (for a short time also) and not in the rest of Southern Italy/ex Magna Greece, with few or nothing genetic impact. :)
A military rule is a lot different from a colonization.

Agamemnon
05-31-2016, 08:00 PM
And you see how little impact Turks had genetically.

You can artificially create a genetic Greek (or someone indistinguishable autosomally) by mixing 3 Sicilian grandparents and 1 Russian.

While you could be right - heck, Sicilians and South Italians might well turn out to be very similar to populations living in Greece from the 4th century CE right back to the Bronze Age - I think you might also be overestimating the actual amount of Slavic admixture here. I mean, I've seen my fair share of Turks who would get fits like 50% to 60% Cypriot/Ashkenazi/Sephardic/Sicilian/Druze/Samaritan + 40% to 50% Nogai/Turkmen/Uzbek, or even stuff like Greek_Thessaly + Nogai + Turk_Kayseri + Iraqi_Jew... The point being, gedmatch calculators are no substitute for actual aDNA.

Agamemnon
05-31-2016, 08:03 PM
Turks and Greeks: tell them apart

http://www.thelocal.de/userdata/images/article/de/12715.jpg
https://www.neweurope.eu/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/ne19-1_45.jpg
https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/2/2/1391359898532/A-Golden-Dawn-supporter-r-011.jpg
https://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1360787/golden-dawn.jpg?w=400

MODERATOR: Let me tell you how this is going to work, I don't usually send threats, I warn only once. The moment you start violating the forum's ToS I'll be handing down infractions. This is not some sort of silly anthroboard or tabloid, if you have to make a point avoid using pictures of Greek nazis and use data instead.

Sikeliot
05-31-2016, 08:34 PM
Since it regards some zones, I've read a lot of messages on here and on some other forums were Southern Italians are accused to be half Arabs when the muslim military rule was only in Sicily (for a short time also) and not in the rest of Southern Italy/ex Magna Greece, with few or nothing genetic impact. :)
A military rule is a lot different from a colonization.

Anyone with common sense would know that Sicilians were likely more Middle Eastern genetically in ancient times than now. The pre-Phoenician people of Sicily were likely of similar stock to pre-Greek Cypriots and Canaanites but with extra WHG admixture. The Greek, Roman, and Norman conquests would have brought more continental European admixture. Keep in mind many Calabrese are genetically close to Cypriots (though still not as West Asian shifted) and even some Sicilians go that way too.

Sikeliot
05-31-2016, 08:35 PM
A continental non-Anatolian Greek but not an islander who is quite similar to a Sicilian or a Calabrese.

Where is the result? I have seen some results like Sicilians from southeastern Greece, but my understanding is they come out this way because of constant influx from the islands over the millennia.

Agamemnon
05-31-2016, 08:40 PM
Are you saying that the Elymians were for the most part similar to Eteocypriots and Canaanites? While this is possible, I think they'd have significantly more WHG/Villabruna-type admixture than these two, in fact I'd take the Canaanites out of the picture and mention Eteocretans and Minoans instead, since the Canaanites must've had far stronger Afroasiatic affinities than the aforementioned groups (and in my book, these AA affinities would be quintessentially African).

Morges
05-31-2016, 08:46 PM
Anyone with common sense would know that Sicilians were likely more Middle Eastern genetically in ancient times than now. The pre-Phoenician people of Sicily were likely of similar stock to pre-Greek Cypriots and Canaanites but with extra WHG admixture. The Greek, Roman, and Norman conquests would have brought more continental European admixture. Keep in mind many Calabrese are genetically close to Cypriots (though still not as West Asian shifted) and even some Sicilians go that way too.

We have zero aDNA to say it. Imo ancient pre-Greek peoples of Sicily (not pre-Phoenicians that you like a lot but they didn't colonized the island only founded two coastal emporiums) were not genetically so much different autosomally from modern Sicilians, or slightly a bit different. The same Greek colonizers were a minority and intermarried with local inhabitans and who knows if they were modern Greek islander-like. Calabria is not close to Cyprus, it's more European genetically and close to Crete and the Aegean like Sicilians. The way that Calabrians appear a bit more southern-shifted than Sicilians and other mainlander Southern Italians is in my opinion from less continental input from Rome and the middle ages.

Morges
05-31-2016, 08:49 PM
Are you saying that the Elymians were for the most part similar to Eteocypriots and Canaanites? While this is possible, I think they'd have significantly more WHG/Villabruna-type admixture than these two, in fact I'd take the Canaanites out of the picture and mention Eteocretans and Minoans instead, since the Canaanites must've had far stronger Afroasiatic affinities than the aforementioned groups (and in my book, these AA affinities would be quintessentially African).

Yes I agree with possible affinity with Minoans and Aegean which is preserved also today, Elymians for a linguistic point of view spoke an Italic language, close to Sicel, Bruzi and Lucani.
http://lila.sns.it/mnamon/index.php?page=Scrittura&id=49&lang=en

Agamemnon
05-31-2016, 08:53 PM
Yes I agree with possible affinity with Minoans and Aegean which is preserved also today, Elymians for a linguistic point of view spoke an Italic language, close to Sicel, Bruzi and Lucani.
http://lila.sns.it/mnamon/index.php?page=Scrittura&id=49&lang=en

We know virtually nothing about the Elymian language's genetic affiliation, some linguists have made adventurous proposals based on the most obvious phonological aspects of the case system and concluded that the language is Indo-European, but even that is purely theoretical at best... For all I know, Linear A and Elymian might've been related, there's simply no way to tell right now, the data is too scarce and the proposals too bold to be taken seriously..

Morges
05-31-2016, 08:57 PM
We know virtually nothing about the Elymian language's genetic affiliation, some linguists have made adventurous proposals based on the most obvious phonological aspects of the case system and concluded that the language is Indo-European, but even that is purely theoretical at best... For all I know, Linear A and Elymian might've been related, there's simply no way to tell right now, the data is too scarce and the proposals too bold to be taken seriously..

There are few inscription and some theories, but according to Sebastiano Tusa they were probably another tribe of Italic group for archeological findings and especially the pottery.

Sikeliot
05-31-2016, 09:14 PM
Are you saying that the Elymians were for the most part similar to Eteocypriots and Canaanites? While this is possible, I think they'd have significantly more WHG/Villabruna-type admixture than these two, in fact I'd take the Canaanites out of the picture and mention Eteocretans and Minoans instead, since the Canaanites must've had far stronger Afroasiatic affinities than the aforementioned groups (and in my book, these AA affinities would be quintessentially African).

I think that the people of Sicily would have been Minoan-like, and that both Sicily and Crete (which today still plot together) are more "European" like now than they would have been then.

Sikeliot
05-31-2016, 09:17 PM
We have zero aDNA to say it. Imo ancient pre-Greek peoples of Sicily (not pre-Phoenicians that you like a lot but they didn't colonized the island only founded two coastal emporiums) were not genetically so much different autosomally from modern Sicilians, or slightly a bit different. The same Greek colonizers were a minority and intermarried with local inhabitans and who knows if they were modern Greek islander-like. Calabria is not close to Cyprus, it's more European genetically and close to Crete and the Aegean like Sicilians. The way that Calabrians appear a bit more southern-shifted than Sicilians and other mainlander Southern Italians is in my opinion from less continental input from Rome and the middle ages.


I notice that Sicily can be divided roughly in four genetic areas:

a) Messina, Catania, and part of Palermo are genetically indistinguishable from Calabria and from the Aegean islands
b) Enna, Syracuse, and Ragusa, like Apulia on the mainland, shift toward mainland Greece but have not nearly as much North European affinity as them
c) Agrigento, which shifts toward Malta with both inflated North African and West Asian admixture,
d) Western Palermo province and Trapani, who have both inflated MENA admixture and inflated North European, thus plotting with no one else.


The thing that can be said with certainty is, no part of Sicily is as continentally European as is mainland Greece. The admixture is not there.

Agamemnon
05-31-2016, 09:21 PM
I think that the people of Sicily would have been Minoan-like, and that both Sicily and Crete (which today still plot together) are more "European" like now than they would have been then.

I understand that, and it sounds like a pretty realistic model based on what we know, though I tend to think that Sicily might've been more EF-like back then, probably not too different from contemporary Sardinians during the Chalcolithic era, if anything Sicily might've absorbed more CHG-type admixture over time... There are many different scenarios I can think of, but again there is no substitute for ancient DNA.

Morges
05-31-2016, 09:26 PM
I notice that Sicily can be divided roughly in four genetic areas:

a) Messina, Catania, and part of Palermo are genetically indistinguishable from Calabria and from the Aegean islands
b) Enna, Syracuse, and Ragusa, like Apulia on the mainland, shift toward mainland Greece but have not nearly as much North European affinity as them
c) Agrigento, which shifts toward Malta with both inflated North African and West Asian admixture,
d) Western Palermo province and Trapani, who have both inflated MENA admixture and inflated North European, thus plotting with no one else.


The thing that can be said with certainty is, no part of Sicily is as continentally European as is mainland Greece. The admixture is not there.

I actually have seen many results from many parts of Sicily and we tend to be genetically similar each other, I repeat, there are barriers here. For example a guy from Siracusa I know has very similar results (23andme and GEDmatch) of another guy from Palermo. If you mean slight differences, than I can agree with you.

Sikeliot
05-31-2016, 09:28 PM
I actually have seen many results from many parts of Sicily and we tend to be genetically similar each other, I repeat, there are barriers here. For example a guy from Siracusa I know has very similar results (23andme and GEDmatch) of another guy from Palermo. If you mean slight differences, than I can agree with you.

Could you send me the GEDmatch IDs you have for different parts of Sicily? I would be interested to run them myself.

My observation is that the highest MENA in Sicily is in Agrigento and in Palermo, but there are also more outliers that plot north of the average Sicilian in the northwest, while northeastern Sicily is consistently Dodecanese-like and southeastern Sicily is more of an intermediate between Cretans and Peloponnesians.

Morges
05-31-2016, 09:28 PM
I understand that, and it sounds like a pretty realistic model based on what we know, though I tend to think that Sicily might've been more EF-like back then, probably not too different from contemporary Sardinians during the Chalcolithic era, if anything Sicily might've absorbed more CHG-type admixture over time... There are many different scenarios I can think of, but again there is no substitute for ancient DNA.

We return at the same argument of the thread. We have very few aDNA from Italy and Balkan, when we have many of them from various ages, I hope soon, we can answer of many question of this thread like how much slavic blood have absorbed mainland Greeks?etc etc

Morges
05-31-2016, 09:32 PM
Could you send me the GEDmatch IDs you have for different parts of Sicily? I would be interested to run them myself.

My observation is that the highest MENA in Sicily is in Agrigento and in Palermo, but there are also more outliers that plot north of the average Sicilian in the northwest, while northeastern Sicily is consistently Dodecanese-like and southeastern Sicily is more of an intermediate between Cretans and Peloponnesians.

If they want yes. Anyway every individual person will have his personal results, neither all the persons from Agrigento are identical, nor all the ones from Ragusa. I do not agree with these generalizations.

Sikeliot
05-31-2016, 09:52 PM
If they want yes. Anyway every individual person will have his personal results, neither all the persons from Agrigento are identical, nor all the ones from Ragusa. I do not agree with these generalizations.


Send me them? If you have the results then they must have been made public somewhere.

My question is, which region(s) in Sicily would you guess have the most Greek input and the least?

Agamemnon
05-31-2016, 10:00 PM
I notice that Sicily can be divided roughly in four genetic areas:

a) Messina, Catania, and part of Palermo are genetically indistinguishable from Calabria and from the Aegean islands
b) Enna, Syracuse, and Ragusa, like Apulia on the mainland, shift toward mainland Greece but have not nearly as much North European affinity as them
c) Agrigento, which shifts toward Malta with both inflated North African and West Asian admixture,
d) Western Palermo province and Trapani, who have both inflated MENA admixture and inflated North European, thus plotting with no one else.


The thing that can be said with certainty is, no part of Sicily is as continentally European as is mainland Greece. The admixture is not there.

That really sounds like extreme hair-splitting to me, besides I fail to see how Agrigento shifts towards Malta, it falls right into the East Sicilian cluster, see for yourself (West Sicilians in Yellow, East Sicilians in Green, Agrigento in Red, South Italy in Blue):

http://pichoster.net/images/2016/05/31/PCA%20plot%20Sicily%20&%20South%20Italy%20clusters.jpg

Morges
05-31-2016, 10:04 PM
Send me them? If you have the results then they must have been made public somewhere.

My question is, which region(s) in Sicily would you guess have the most Greek input and the least?

I'll send some of their GEDmatch results via pm.
Second question: most Greek input the Eastern and the Southern coast, the least the inner part.

Morges
05-31-2016, 10:05 PM
That really sounds like extreme hair-splitting to me, besides I fail to see how Agrigento shifts towards Malta, it falls right into the East Sicilian cluster, see for yourself (West Sicilians in Yellow, East Sicilians in Green, Agrigento in Red, South Italy in Blue):

http://pichoster.net/images/2016/05/31/PCA%20plot%20Sicily%20&%20South%20Italy%20clusters.jpg

I can confirm, a friend of mine from Agrigento's province get East Sicilians on Eurogenes as first population.

Sikeliot
05-31-2016, 10:28 PM
I'll send some of their GEDmatch results via pm.
Second question: most Greek input the Eastern and the Southern coast, the least the inner part.

I would have assumed Ragusa and Syracuse have the most Greek. I don't see, from DNA results any reason to believe Messina has any significant Greek DNA. Calabria probably not either, since Calabrese only plot with the most outlying Greeks like Dodecanese.

Sikeliot
05-31-2016, 10:28 PM
I'll send some of their GEDmatch results via pm.

I want to see the Gedmatch IDs, but send me whatever you have.

Tomenable
07-24-2016, 06:21 PM
This is a Peloponnesian on one of the GEDmatch calculators PuntDNA-L K15. From far southern Greece (Lakonia). They are NE European shifted enough to come up halfway between Poles and Cypriots even.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.1% Cypriot + 42.9% Polish @ 1.41
2 53.6% Croatian + 46.4% Cypriot @ 1.47
3 51.5% Hungarian + 48.5% Cypriot @ 1.47
4 50.2% Slovenian + 49.8% Cypriot @ 1.5
5 50.4% Austrian + 49.6% Cypriot @ 1.85
6 72.9% Macedonian + 27.1% Druze @ 1.94
7 55.2% Cypriot + 44.8% Swedish @ 1.95
8 94.7% Greek_Thessaly + 5.3% Yemenese @ 1.97

Actually, Ancient Classical-era Greeks did look more Northern European than modern Greeks:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0m3RKbcq2g

sciencediver
07-24-2016, 06:28 PM
these are iron age and classical era balkanic phenotypes, nothing to do with northern europeans. those people in the mosaic look like albanians

Tomenable
07-24-2016, 06:29 PM
55.2% Cypriot + 44.8% Swedish @ 1.95

Maybe this is why it looks like that?:

http://freya.theladyofthelabyrinth.com/?page_id=89


The dawn of the Scandinavian Bronze Age has been traced back to the 16th century B.C and lasted for a thousand years before it was gradually evolved into the Iron Age of the fifth century B.C. The population of Scandinavia of that time is supposed to have consisted of a fusion of groups native to the area from the earliest Neolithic period and of immigrant groups known as the “Battle Axe people” who apparently emerged from east-central Europe and who settled in the Baltic and in Scandinavia during the Neolithic period. Hallmarks of their culture were the battle-axes and individual burials.

It is possible that these were the people who brought with them the Indo-European language and culture to Scandinavia, although there is no certain evidence for this since we do not know what kind of language was being used by the Neolithic and by the Bronze-Age peoples. Indo-European language and culture was certainly dominant in Scandinavia by the time of the Iron Age.

That it was so even in the Bronze Age seems very plausible, also that there were certain likenesses in culture between the Scandinavian upper classes and those of southern Europe such as the aristocratic Greeks who produced the heroic poetry of the Iliad and the Odyssey. There was certainly a great deal of trade and travel between the North and South during the Bronze Age, and even ideas and cultic practice were being exchanged.

Also Dienekes wrote about this ("Links between Mycenaeans and Scandinavia"):

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/05/links-between-mycenaeans-and-scandinavia.html

Also Felice Vinci suggested such links ("The Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales"):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baltic_Origins_of_Homer%27s_Epic_Tales


Felice Vinci is a nuclear engineer, amateur historian and author of The Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales, The Illiad, The Odyssey and The Migration of Myth. William Mullen received his BA in Classics from Harvard College and his PhD from the University of Texas. He was a Professor or post-doctoral Fellow at Berkeley, Princeton, Boston University, and Harvard's Center for Hellenic Studies and St. John's College. Dr. Mullen settled in the Classics Department at Bard College in 1985. Felice shares compelling evidence that the events of Homer's Iliad and Odyssey took place in the Baltic and not the Mediterranean. For years scholars have debated the incongruities in Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, given that his descriptions are at odds with the geography of the areas he purportedly describes. Felice and Bill discuss how a climate change forced the migration of a people and their myth to ancient Greece. Felice identifies the true geographic sites of Troy and Ithaca in the Baltic Sea and Calypso's Isle in the North Atlantic Ocean. We'll hear where the story suggests that the events took place in the Baltic, such as Ulysses' journey along what sounds like the coasts of Norway. Also, we talk about why some tribes in Northern Europe might have stayed during the climate change. Later, we compare Homeric poems with Viking mythology to find similarities and compare Greco-Roman Gods and Goddesses to Norse Gods and Goddesses. Felice Vinci offers a key to open many doors that allow us to consider the age-old question of the Indo-European diaspora and the origin of the Greek civilization from a new perspective.

Note that the average height of male aristocrats from Grave Circle B at Mycenae was 173 cm. That was 6 cm more than the average height of commoners. As we know generally Northern Europeans are taller than Southern Europeans. Also many of Ancient Greek gods and goddesses, heroic mythological figures, as well as people from the upper classes of the society were light-eyed and blond-haired or red-haired:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#Southern_Europe

sciencediver
07-24-2016, 06:32 PM
wow, you slavs are unbelievable

Tomenable
07-24-2016, 06:46 PM
Alexander the Great of Macedon was also famously described as a blond-haired man.

The same is, by the way, true for Italics. Roman nicknames (cognomina) often described how people looked like. Wilhem Sieglin counted among famous Romans, 158 people with nicknames suggesting blond hair (7 Flavi, 20 Flaviani, 10 Fulvi, 121 Fulvii) and 171 with nicknames suggesting red hair (27 Rubrii, 26 Rufi, 24 Rufii, 36 Rufini, 45 Rutilii, 13 Ahenobarbi). Francis Owen, on the other hand, counted as many as 250 blond-haired Flavii among well-known Romans. Among Emperors, the following ones surely had red or blond hair: Octavian Augustus, Nero (subflavo), Caligula (aurea barba), Vitelius (πυρράκης), Domitian (ξανθός), Trajan (caesaries) and Commodus (ουλόξανθος). A redhead was also Cato the Elder, while Sulla was a blonde.

sciencediver
07-24-2016, 06:53 PM
how does this have anything to do with the thread about slavic dna in Greece?

Here's a Minoan face reconstruction, she has light eyes. Maybe Minoans were nordic too tomenable?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/61/dd/b5/61ddb52ae87fc746896bd190b2d580ce.jpg

Tomenable
07-24-2016, 07:01 PM
Mycenaeans buried in Grave Circle B were almost as tall as modern Greeks, despite worse nutrition:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6360-How-much-Slavic-DNA-exists-in-Greece&p=143702&viewfull=1#post143702

Reconstructions of their faces also show that they do not fit well into the Mediterranean World:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6360-How-much-Slavic-DNA-exists-in-Greece/page2&p=143699#post143699

sciencediver
07-24-2016, 07:03 PM
Minoans buried in Grave Circle B were almost as tall as modern Greeks, despite worse nutrition:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6360-How-much-Slavic-DNA-exists-in-Greece&p=143702&viewfull=1#post143702

Reconstructions of their faces also show that they do not fit very well into the Mediterranean World:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6360-How-much-Slavic-DNA-exists-in-Greece/page2&p=143699#post143699

Those are Myceneans...

Again, they look more like Albanians and Bulgarians than Northern Europeans.

Tomenable
07-24-2016, 07:05 PM
They had mostly Cro-Magnid and related phenotypes.

Bulgarians are ~50% Northern European genetically.

Tomenable
07-24-2016, 07:06 PM
Pardon, Mycenaeans.

sciencediver
07-24-2016, 07:11 PM
They had mostly Cro-Magnid and related phenotypes.

Bulgarians are ~50% Northern European genetically.

phenotypes are not an argument.

Philip of Macedon.Does he look Scandinavian to you?

http://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/247/flashcards/271247/jpg/slide1341339107561314.jpg

Tomenable
07-24-2016, 07:15 PM
Does he look Scandinavian to you?

No, not Scandinavian, but he doesn't look very Southern European either.

And we don't really know how reliable is this reconstruction.

I prefer phenotype SNPs from ancient DNA when it comes to pigmentation.

Kanenas
07-24-2016, 09:19 PM
Mycenaeans buried in Grave Circle B were almost as tall as modern Greeks, despite worse nutrition:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6360-How-much-Slavic-DNA-exists-in-Greece&p=143702&viewfull=1#post143702

Reconstructions of their faces also show that they do not fit well into the Mediterranean World:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6360-How-much-Slavic-DNA-exists-in-Greece/page2&p=143699#post143699

You have posted this a thousand times in various forums. It says that Mycenaean males were on average 1.67cm while modern Greeks are just a half centimeter taller.

That's obviously wrong. I didn't say anything before because the mistake is too obvious.

I wonder how these books get published.

Tomenable
07-24-2016, 10:14 PM
It says that Mycenaean males were on average 1.67cm

Mycenaean commoners were 1.67 cm, but aristocrats were 6 cm higher than commoners.

sciencediver
07-25-2016, 07:02 AM
I wonder how these books get published.

That's the main problem with books, any westerner can pretend to be an expert in Balkan history and write a book about it, even though in reality most of these scholars have barely even made use of legitimate sources, if there are any... History isn't what you would call an exact science , sadly.

Kanenas
07-25-2016, 08:38 PM
Mycenaean commoners were 1.67 cm, but aristocrats were 6 cm higher than commoners.

This book says pretty much that modern Greeks are 1.67 cm. I hope you understand that this is wrong. Even Chinese people are taller than that.

Skerdilaidas
07-25-2016, 09:43 PM
Mycenaean commoners were 1.67 cm, but aristocrats were 6 cm higher than commoners.

If that's the case, they seem to have been much taller than Northern Europeans of late 18th century:
In the study of John Komlos and Francesco Cinnirella, who researched the Europeans height in the 18th century and estimated the height of English, Irish and Saxon populations. 165 cm and 168 cm were the results for the males of England and Ireland. The shortest in Europe were the Saxon and German soldiers, measured at 164 cm. The major reason for decline or rise in the average height of people is believed to be the nourishment. People were taller the less urbanized and more agricultural and self-sufficient the population was. But other studies have shown that the Russians did not correspond to the general trend. They were short although primarily agricultural, which could be a fact that the agricultural sector was low productive.

Slavs and German peasantry were extremely short in majority. Though they did have a tall minority (Alpines and reduced CM like Baltids etc. are generally short to average in height).

Skerdilaidas
07-25-2016, 10:06 PM
No, not Scandinavian, but he doesn't look very Southern European either.

And we don't really know how reliable is this reconstruction.

I prefer phenotype SNPs from ancient DNA when it comes to pigmentation.

By Southern Europeans you mean Balkan, right? Southern Europe is big and very diverse in phenotype.

Tomenable
07-25-2016, 10:21 PM
Slavs and German peasantry were extremely short in majority.

Slavs invading the Balkans were described as very tall by Byzantine sources.

Check "Phenotype of old Slavs, 6th to 10th centuries", by Łukasz M. Stanaszek:

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/swarch/Swiatowit-r2001-t3_%2844%29-nB-s205-212.pdf

It is based on written accounts. It is in Polish, with English summary at the end.

Skerdilaidas
07-25-2016, 10:29 PM
Slavs invading the Balkans were described as very tall by Byzantine sources.

Check "Phenotype of old Slavs, 6th to 10th centuries", by Łukasz M. Stanaszek:

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/swarch/Swiatowit-r2001-t3_%2844%29-nB-s205-212.pdf

It is based on written accounts. It is in Polish, with English summary at the end.

It's only one Byzantine chronicle that happens to say that, so who knows for what reason. We have today's height and the 18th and 19th century mesuarments to compare. Majority of Slavs, especially Western and Eastern Slavs are are not that tall in average, definitely not taller than Greeks.

Tomenable
07-25-2016, 10:31 PM
It's only one Byzantine chronicle that happens to say that

No, actually there are multiple sources which say this (see the list below).

Stanaszek divided descriptions of Slavic physical appearance by each century.

He used the following authors/sources describing Slavic look in each century:

6th century:

- Procopius of Caesarea
- Theophylact Simocatta
- Theophanes the Confessor
- Pseudo-Maurice

7th century:

- Al-Ahtal
- Ibn Qutaybah

8th century:

- Ibn Al-Kalbi

9th century:

- Al-Baladhuri
- Al-Ğāhiz

10th century:

- Abraham ben Jacob
- Constantine Porphyrogennetos
- Al-Masudi
- Ibn al-Faqih
- Yaqut al-Hamawi*

*He lived in the 13th century but was quoting 10th century sources.

Tomenable
07-25-2016, 10:37 PM
Tall stature was mentioned by at least four sources/authors:

- Theophylact Simocatta*
- Procopius of Caesarea**
- Theophanes the Confessor***
- Pseudo-Caesarius of Nazianzus (6th century AD)****

But Caesarius was not quoted by Stanaszek in his publication.

=========

Excerpts:

* "[the Emperor] welcomed these newcomers from the land of barbarians, and after being amazed by their height and mighty stature, he sent these men to Heraclea"

** "Valerian chose one of the Slavs who are men of mighty stature."

** "they do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men"

*** "The Emperor was admiring their (...) stalwart stature."

**** "Slavs are numerous and tall"

Skerdilaidas
07-25-2016, 11:13 PM
One can cherrypic sources and prove the opposite. Fact remains Slavs in majority are not exceptionally tall, the tallest Slavs are indeed south Slavs like Montenegrins and Serbs which says quite a bit in my opinion. So perhaps the Byzantines were describing them after their alliances and/or mixing with Vlahs and other native groups?

I see many Poles in Canada in daily bases and they look average to me.

Tomenable
07-25-2016, 11:27 PM
South Slavs ARE exceptionally tall, and these sources are describing their arrival to the Balkans in the 6th century AD.

Your argument was that modern Russians are not so tall. Well, modern Russians are also "not so Slavic".

They have Uralic and Mongolian admixtures, among others. East Asian and Siberian admixtures are quite substantial.


One can cherrypic sources and prove the opposite.

Challenge accepted. Feel free to cherrypic some sources from the Early Middle Ages which describe Slavs as short.

Skerdilaidas
07-25-2016, 11:30 PM
Don't have the time nor the wish to debate in your style, I just said one could do exactly what you're doing to prove the opposite. Again, the tallest Slavs come from the Balkans. Case closed.

Tomenable
07-25-2016, 11:31 PM
So perhaps the Byzantines were describing them after their alliances and/or mixing with Vlahs and other native groups?

Romanians - who are descended from Vlachs - are much shorter than South-Western Slavs, who are descended from Slavs described by those sources. The point is that sources describing the arrival of South Slavs to the Balkans in the 6th century described them as tall. And today their descendants are tall too. Of course other groups of Slavs could be shorter, since you know, there is random drift and selection, etc.

Various groups evolve differently, even within the same major ethnos (like Slavs).

But ancestors of South Slavs were already tall when they first crossed the Danube.

They did not "get taller" from mixing with Balkan natives, contrary to what you are insinuating.

Macedonians and Bulgarians are not so tall, and at the same time they have highest % of Native Balkanian ancestry.

Tomenable
07-25-2016, 11:57 PM
Stature is influenced by nutrition + genetics, and when it comes to genetics probably not only autosomes but also Y-DNA plays some role.

I'm not sure about the role of Y chromosome, but if it plays some role then maybe haplogroup I2a can be linked with increased stature. South Slavs tend to have a lot of I2a and it belongs to so young subclades, that it almost certainly came to the Balkans in the 500s AD with Slavs.

So that group of Slavs which invaded the Balkans was probably I2a-rich already in the 6th century when describeed by Byzantine authors.

Skerdilaidas
07-26-2016, 01:51 AM
Stature is mostly influenced by nutrition + life style. The tallest people in the Balkans were the Highlanders; rich dairy and meat diet + less physical work (relaxed for most of the winter, shut down up there from snow, and during spring/summer boys while young were in most cases shepherds that wondered with their flocks of sheep or cattle, so they barely did any hard work). Farmers in other hand did hard work when young, which stunted their growth. Look at Dutch, they were the shortest in Europe a century ago and now are the tallest. Lack of resources the opposite happens, have a look at how Homo Floresiensis went through the process of dwarfisation in the island of Indonesia.

The low landers, where majority of the Slavs settled, were farmers, like majority of the Slavs, and were short to medium in stature - rarely they had some really tall folk. Now you lost all your credibility. If such were the case, Sardinians and the rest of the Slavs, Bulgarians included since they do have a descent amount of I2, would have been the tallest people of Europe.

Tomenable
07-26-2016, 06:15 AM
Stature is mostly influenced by nutrition + life style.

Tell this to Central African Pygmies, who can't grow tall even with best possible nutrition and life style. Stature is genetic too.


were farmers, like majority of the Slav

All sources which describe Early Slavs say that they travelled with large herds / flocks of animals. So animal husbandry was just as important for them, and they practiced slash-and-burn mobile farming (they didn't stay for long time farming the same field, but moved around).


Look at Dutch, they were the shortest in Europe a century ago and now are the tallest.

Sources ???


since they do have a descent amount of I2, would have been the tallest people of Europe.

I wrote that autosomal DNA is responsible for stature - but some studies also suggested that Y-DNA plays a role.

In all populations men are taller than women, which means that some stature-increasing genes are on the Y chromosome too.

However, haplogroup is just one part of Y chromosome and consists of mostly non-coding regions.

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 06:26 AM
On the topic of height, changes between 1896 and 1996 birth cohorts:

https://elife-publishing-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/13410/elife-13410-fig3-v1.jpg

Skerdilaidas
07-26-2016, 06:12 PM
It's obviosly connected to genetics, I haven't said otherwise, but certainly ydna doesn't play much of a role because, after all, it only makes about 1% of our genetic profile. I basically mentioned factors that play a decesive role on stature. Pygmies don't have the best diet, they live in a rain forest, and in fact most scientist have come to the conclusion that they evolved to their present state because of their poor diet; lack of vitamin D, Calcium etc...


Read into it, it's well known how dutch height has increased.

Since you insist, I will play your game: Albanians are divided into two groups linguistically, into Tosk that reside in Southern and Central Albania and into Ghegs which reside in Kosova, most of Western Macedonia, Southern Serbia and Montenegro. Coon observed that Ghegs were much taller than Tosks. You can read on "Mountain of Giants" about it.

Reason I bringing this up is because just over 30% of Tosks ydna is composed of I2a and R1a combined, meaning they received descent amount of Slavic influence over the years. While Ghegs have only 5-8% I2a and R1a combined depending on region. Now, can you tell me why Tosks are shorter than Ghegs, even though they have received so much more Slavic influence? Don't you think the Giant Slavs would have raised their average, at least to surpass the R1b, E-V13 and J2b2 Ghegs?

Volat
07-26-2016, 06:20 PM
It's obviosly connected to genetics, I haven't said otherwise, but certainly ydna doesn't play much of a role because, after all, it only makes about 1% of our genetic profile. I basically mentioned factors that play a decesive role on stature. Pygmies don't have the best diet, they live in a rain forest, and in fact most scientist have come to the conclusion that they evolved to their present state because of their poor diet; lack of vitamin D, Calcium etc...


Read into it, it's well known how dutch height has increased.

Since you insist, I will play your game: Albanians are divided into two groups linguistically, into Tosk that reside in Southern and Central Albania and into Ghegs which reside in Kosova, most of Western Macedonia, Southern Serbia and Montenegro. Coon observed that Ghegs were much taller than Tosks. You can read on "Mountain of Giants" about it.

Reason I bringing this up is because just over 30% of Tosks ydna is composed of I2a and R1a combined, meaning they received descent amount of Slavic influence over the years. While Ghegs have only 5-8% I2a and R1a combined depending on region. Now, can you tell me why Tosks are shorter than Ghegs, even though they have received so much more Slavic influence? Don't you think the Giant Slavs would have raised their average, at least to surpass the R1b, E-V13 and J2b2 Ghegs?

Montengrins , Bosniaks, Herzegovinans, possibly Croats of Dalmatia are no shorter than Ghegs. Those people have loads of I2a and R1a. More than 50%. Genetics play a role, but so do environment and diet.

Skerdilaidas
07-26-2016, 06:25 PM
Montengrins , Bosniaks, Herzegovinans, possibly Croats of Dalmatia are no shorter than Ghegs. Those people have loads of I2a and R1a. More than 50%. Genetics play a role, but so do environment and diet.

Did I say there were shorter? Montenegrin are actually some of the tallest people in the region, and they seem to have the lowest amount of I2a and R1a combined, almost in similar amount to Tosk Albanians and Bulgarians for that matter. Why are they the tallest then, you mind telling me?

Volat
07-26-2016, 06:31 PM
Did I say there were shorter? Montenegrin are actually some of the tallest people in the region, and they seem to have the lowest amount of I2a and R1a combined, almost in similar amount Tosk Albanians have and Bulgarians for that matter. Why are they the tallest than, you mind telling me?

You implied that Tosk who have more I2a+R1a in combination are shorter than Gheg who have less of those haplogroups. I stated not necessarily showing you an example in case of BiH where people have plenty of I2a and R1a in combination. It's also strange to associate height of people with frequency of haplogroups.

Mis
07-26-2016, 06:33 PM
http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2014/08/getting-taller-study-on-european-height.html

Shqiptar are highest

Skerdilaidas
07-26-2016, 06:41 PM
You implied that Tosk who have more I2a+R1a in combination are shorter than Gheg who have less of those haplogroups. I stated not necessarily showing you an example in case of BiH where people have plenty of I2a and R1a in combination. It's also strange to associate height of people with frequency of haplogroups.

You're not paying attention to what is being discussed. I used those examples to demonstrate that ydna/haplogroups don't correlate with height.

Volat
07-26-2016, 06:44 PM
You're not paying attention to what is being discussed. I used those examples to demonstrate that ydna/haplogroups don't correlate with height.

I paid attention to what you wrote. Regardless, what you meant Slavic people of BiH are no shorter than any non-Slavic people in the Balkans.


Skerdilaidas wrote:

Reason I bringing this up is because just over 30% of Tosks ydna is composed of I2a and R1a combined, meaning they received descent amount of Slavic influence over the years. While Ghegs have only 5-8% I2a and R1a combined depending on region. Now, can you tell me why Tosks are shorter than Ghegs, even though they have received so much more Slavic influence? Don't you think the Giant Slavs would have raised their average, at least to surpass the R1b, E-V13 and J2b2 Ghegs?

Mis
07-26-2016, 06:49 PM
ERROR

Skerdilaidas
07-26-2016, 06:53 PM
It's true, men line CTS9219 are high. My whole family is high

Are you trying to say something?

Tomenable
07-26-2016, 06:53 PM
I used those examples to demonstrate that ydna/haplogroups don't correlate with height.

The claim that haplogroups correlate with height can be found in some peer-reviewed publications.

I am also skeptical about this claim. However, autosomal DNA certainly does correlate with height.

Tomenable
03-08-2017, 06:33 PM
"Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks":

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201718a.html

MfA
03-08-2017, 06:44 PM
"Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks":

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201718a.html

Offtopic but they used the correct colonial term "Middle East" which was originally referred to Iran, Central Asia et al.

Mis
03-08-2017, 07:34 PM
Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer and Gustaf Kossinna the dustbin of history.

Illyro-Vlach
03-08-2017, 11:26 PM
"Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks":

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201718a.html


Thanks for this. I will take a look at it later and this just might knock out the Slavic theory....but it doesn't necessarily mean no significant replacement as other populations already in the Balkans could have migrated to the peninsula during the Medieval Era.

Gravetto-Danubian
03-09-2017, 12:34 AM
Thanks for this. I will take a look at it later and this just might knock out the Slavic theory....but it doesn't necessarily mean no significant replacement as other populations already in the Balkans could have migrated to the peninsula during the Medieval Era.

Should be an interesting read. Quickly, if they compared putative Slavic admxiture in greece against, say , poles, it'll be an understimate, as the Slavs which moved in Peloponessus would already be 'Balkan admixed'. I guess without aDNA ; and a pre-determined hypothesis, I'd take this paper with a grain of salt.

eastara
03-09-2017, 09:31 AM
Should be an interesting read. Quickly, if they compared putative Slavic admxiture in greece against, say , poles, it'll be an understimate, as the Slavs which moved in Peloponessus would already be 'Balkan admixed'. I guess without aDNA ; and a pre-determined hypothesis, I'd take this paper with a grain of salt.

Yes, why do they compare them to Russians and Poles and not to other Balkan Slavs. For example Bulgarians, considered a Slavic population, has much more in common with the Greeks than with Russians. At east they admit that Anatolian Greeks are not similar even to Greeks from Peloponnese, let alone Northern Greeks. I am tired of fighting those claiming Greeks are a homogeneous ethnicity. They are also preoccupied with ancient Greeks settling in Italy and forget the long colonisation of Greece by Venetians and other West Europeans living in different Crusader feudal states, which survived long after Ottoman invasion.

Tomenable
03-09-2017, 10:59 AM
as the Slavs which moved in Peloponessus would already be 'Balkan admixed'.

Did they really have enough time for mixing with Balkan populations before invading the Peloponessus?

Dorkymon
03-09-2017, 11:22 AM
Did they really have enough time for mixing with Balkan populations before invading the Peloponessus?

Maybe not with Slavs per se, but there definitely has been some mixing with a further inland population.
See the 2nd most popular Greek surname.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_common_surnames_in_Europe#Greece

Gravetto-Danubian
03-09-2017, 11:50 AM
Did they really have enough time for mixing with Balkan populations before invading the Peloponessus?

Yes they arrived on the Danube in 500 AD.
They settled in Peloponnesus closer to 800AD.

Waldemar
03-09-2017, 12:20 PM
According to the composer of his Vita, Hugeburc of Heidenheim, Bishop Willibald of Eichstätt (700 – 787) went on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land in the year 722. During his journey he passed through the Peloponnese reaching the city of Monemvasia in the land of Slavinia (“….venerunt ultra mare Adria ad urbem Manamfasiam in Slawinia terrae.”)
14424

http://www.jassa.org/?p=8727

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/c8/0d/ea/c80dea31544f615ac735e926a4b28c7f.jpg

"And the whole country [the Peloponnese] was Slavonized and became barbarous when the deadly plague ravaged the universe and when Constantine [V] the one name after dung held the sceptre of the Romans." (ca.744-747)

DFSTFD
03-09-2017, 02:13 PM
Yes, why do they compare them to Russians and Poles and not to other Balkan Slavs. For example Bulgarians, considered a Slavic population, has much more in common with the Greeks than with Russians. At east they admit that Anatolian Greeks are not similar even to Greeks from Peloponnese, let alone Northern Greeks. I am tired of fighting those claiming Greeks are a homogeneous ethnicity. They are also preoccupied with ancient Greeks settling in Italy and forget the long colonisation of Greece by Venetians and other West Europeans living in different Crusader feudal states, which survived long after Ottoman invasion.

Since they lack early medieval Slavic samples (and I guess all the cremation going on doesn't particularly help), they compared them to Russians, Poles, Belarusians and Ukrainians because they're the current Slavic-speaking populations closest to the most likely place of the proto-Slavic urheimat (and likely genetically closer as well). The why is obvious so your objection is weird - Bulgarians are closer to Greeks and even Albanians because they seem to be of mostly pre/non-Slavic Balkan origin though obviously mixed with early Slavs and everything else under the sun like the rest of the Balkans. Obviously they wouldn't compare them to Bulgarians because they'd be seeing all sorts of stuff that was present already.


At east they admit that Anatolian Greeks are not similar even to Greeks from Peloponnese, let alone Northern Greeks. I am tired of fighting those claiming Greeks are a homogeneous ethnicity.

The Paschou et al. paper had already shown that Cappadocians and Pontic Greeks are basically native Anatolians in origin (unlike West Anatolian Greeks who were mostly recent immigrants from the Balkans and the islands in Ottoman times) which we kinda knew already from history. These people are scientists who published in Nature and who aren't that interested in Balkan spats to distory data or (I think) argue in particularly bad faith; definitely lower than the possibility of random forum posters doing that, at least.


Maybe not with Slavs per se, but there definitely has been some mixing with a further inland population.
See the 2nd most popular Greek surname.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_common_surnames_in_Europe#Greece

"Vlachos" has meant "villager", "peasant", "rustic", "shepherd" etc. for centuries in Greek and other Balkan languages. It has lost the original association for pretty much everyone except the few who know what a Romance-speaking Vlach is. There are better ways to show the assimilation of Vlachs in the Balkans than the historically recent acquisition of surnames.

eastara
03-10-2017, 01:54 AM
There were much more Slavic speaking people living in current Greece (Epirus, Thessaly and Peloponnese) until 17-18 century. I am not counting those who left as refugees or with the population exchange after 1878. Before there was a big population movement, largely forgotten or not mentioned for political reasons
It was mainly for 2 reasons. Around mid 17 century much of Eastern Bulgaria, particularly lowlands were Turkified. However at the end of 17 c. there were several big epidemics of plague and cholera, which emptied those regions.
The Ottomans were in the need of farmers and tax payer, so they offered land to population of mountainous areas, which is the South Western Balkans, always in the meed of more farming land. As Slavs were the farmers there ( Greeks lived mainly in the coastal cities), they took advantage from this.
The second was the expansion of the Albanians after they converted to Islam. As the Ottoman central power largely weakened towards the end of 18th c. Albanian warlords practically ruled the South Western Balkans. The Christians, who were not allowed to carry weapons and even ride good horses were left undefended and the only option was to flee East. During that time Eastern Bulgaria was mostly populated with Bulgarians coming from Greece and current South Albania.
The void was filled with Albanians and later Greeks expanding from the coast line.
Of course, those Slav speakers were already admixed with authochthonous Balkan residents, but still carried percentage of the original East European admixture.

TonyC
07-30-2017, 03:32 AM
All of four of my grandparents were born in Greece (Peloponnesus) three in Western Messenia one in Southeastern Arcadia near the Laconian border.
Here is my Eurogenes EU test V2 K15 result:
Any feedback or insights would be much appreciated thanks!

Admix Results:
1 East Med 23.3
2 Atlantic 19.69
3 West Med 15.21
4 West Asian 13.48
5 Baltic 11.49
6 North Sea 10.38
7 Red Sea 3.45
8 Eastern Euro 2.92
9 Amerindian 0.15

Single Pop Sharing
1 Greek 5.53
2 Italian Abruzzo 6.42
3 Tuscan 7.93
4 West Sicilian 8
5 Central Greek 8.12
6 Greek Thessaly 8.33
7 East Sicilian 8.33
8 South Italian 10.09
9 Bulgarian 10.15
10 Ashkenazi 10.62
11 Romanian 12.41
12 North Italian 12.76
13 Italian Jewish 14.93
14 Sephardic Jewish 15.09
15 Serbian 15.88
16 Algerian Jewish 16.12
17 Tunisian Jewish 19.22
18 Spanish Andalusia 19.26
19 Spanish Extremadura 19.6
20 Spanish Murcia 19.7

Mixed Mode Pop Sharing
1 % 69.3 South Italian % 30.7 Austrian
2 % 65.9 Italian Abruzzo % 34.1 Bulgarian
3 % 57.9 West Sicilian % 42.1 Bulgarian
4 % 89.1 Italian Abruzzo % 10.9 Lithuanian
5 % 59 Greek % 41 Italian Abruzzo
6 % 87.5 Italian Abruzzo %12.5 Russian Smolensk
7 % 88.3 Italitan Abruzzo % 11.7 Belorussian
8 % 68 Greek % 32 Tuscan
9 % 50.2 South Ital % 49.8 Bulgarian
10 % 88.5 ital Abruzzo % 11.5 Estonian Polish
11 % 71.4 South Ital % 22.1 Russian Smolensk
12 % 71.4 South Ital 28.5 Croatian
13 % 83.8 Ital Abruzzo % 16.2 Croatian
14 % 92 Greek % French Basque
15 % 87 Greek 12.3 Spanish Castilla
16 %78 South Ital % 22 Polish
18 % 89.3 Greek % 10.7 Spanish Aragon
19 % 87.9 Greek % 12.1 Spanish Valencia
20 % 88.5 Greek % 11.5 Spanish Castilla La Mancha

Sikeliot
07-30-2017, 05:08 AM
All of four of my grandparents were born in Greece (Peloponnesus) three in Western Messenia one in Southeastern Arcadia near the Laconian border.
Here is my Eurogenes EU test V2 K15 result:
Any feedback or insights would be much appreciated thanks!

Admix Results:
1 East Med 23.3
2 Atlantic 19.69
3 West Med 15.21
4 West Asian 13.48
5 Baltic 11.49
6 North Sea 10.38
7 Red Sea 3.45
8 Eastern Euro 2.92
9 Amerindian 0.15

Single Pop Sharing
1 Greek 5.53
2 Italian Abruzzo 6.42
3 Tuscan 7.93
4 West Sicilian 8
5 Central Greek 8.12
6 Greek Thessaly 8.33
7 East Sicilian 8.33
8 South Italian 10.09
9 Bulgarian 10.15
10 Ashkenazi 10.62
11 Romanian 12.41
12 North Italian 12.76
13 Italian Jewish 14.93
14 Sephardic Jewish 15.09
15 Serbian 15.88
16 Algerian Jewish 16.12
17 Tunisian Jewish 19.22
18 Spanish Andalusia 19.26
19 Spanish Extremadura 19.6
20 Spanish Murcia 19.7

Mixed Mode Pop Sharing
1 % 69.3 South Italian % 30.7 Austrian
2 % 65.9 Italian Abruzzo % 34.1 Bulgarian
3 % 57.9 West Sicilian % 42.1 Bulgarian
4 % 89.1 Italian Abruzzo % 10.9 Lithuanian
5 % 59 Greek % 41 Italian Abruzzo
6 % 87.5 Italian Abruzzo %12.5 Russian Smolensk
7 % 88.3 Italitan Abruzzo % 11.7 Belorussian
8 % 68 Greek % 32 Tuscan
9 % 50.2 South Ital % 49.8 Bulgarian
10 % 88.5 ital Abruzzo % 11.5 Estonian Polish
11 % 71.4 South Ital % 22.1 Russian Smolensk
12 % 71.4 South Ital 28.5 Croatian
13 % 83.8 Ital Abruzzo % 16.2 Croatian
14 % 92 Greek % French Basque
15 % 87 Greek 12.3 Spanish Castilla
16 %78 South Ital % 22 Polish
18 % 89.3 Greek % 10.7 Spanish Aragon
19 % 87.9 Greek % 12.1 Spanish Valencia
20 % 88.5 Greek % 11.5 Spanish Castilla La Mancha


Compared to southern Italians you do indeed shift toward Northeast Europe, but I would imagine even ancient Greeks did, too. You do not have the excess of NE European affinity based on this calculator that signifies significant Slavic input, though you must have some Slavic.

What do you score on Dodecad K12b?

TonyC
07-30-2017, 02:28 PM
Here it is Dodecad 12 KB

1 Caucasus 31.36
2 Atlantic Med 28.57
3 North Euro 22.83
4 SW Asia 9.25
5 Gedrosia 5.55
6 NW Africa 2.14
7 SE Asia 0.3

Single Pop Sharing
1 O Italian 5.73
2 Greek 6.46
3 C Italian 7.93
4 Tuscan 9.95
5 TS130 10.58
6 Sicilian 11.59
7 South Italian 11.62
8 Bulgarian 12.52 (Dodecad)
9 Ashkenazy 12.57
10 Ashkenazy (Dodecad) 12.71
11 Bulgarian 12.8
12 Romanians 13.72
13 N Italian (Dodecad) 14.40
14 N Italian 16.68
15 Seph Jews 18.28
16 Morocco Jews 19.96
17 Turkish 24.66
18 Belaeres 25.14
19 Cypriots 25.63
20 Galicia 26. 11

Two Populations
1 70.7 S Italian/Sicilian 29.3 Hungarian 1.4
2 70.8 Sicilian 29.2 Hungarian 1.72
3 78.6 S Italian Sicilian 21.4 Polish 1.79
4 79.2 S Italian Sicilian 20.8 Mixed Slav 2.18
5 83.2 S Italian Sicilian 16.8 Lithuanian 2.19
6 72.3 Ashkenazy 27.7 Mixed Germanic 2.2
7 80.3 S Italian 19.7 Belorussian 2.22
8 78.8 Sicilian 21.2 Polish 2.27
9 82.3 S. Italian 17.7 Lithuanian 2.31
10 73.4 Ashkenazy 26.6 Dutch 2.32
11 54.3 S Italian 45.7 Rumanian 2.36
12 71.7 Ashkenazy 28.3 German 2.37
13 80.4 S Italian Sicilian 19.6 Russian 2.38
14 54.4 Sicilian 45.6 Romanian 2.44
15 85.3 Greek 13.7 Argyll 2.45
16 78.2 S Italian Sicilian 21.8 Ukranian 2.46
17 79.4 Sicilian 20.6 Mixed Slav 2.53
18 86.6 Greek 13. 4 Orcadian 2.56
19 86.7 Greek 13.3 Orkney 2.57
20 86.6 Greek 13. 4 irish 2.58

Sikeliot
07-30-2017, 03:12 PM
You have less of a shift toward Northeast European shift than most mainland Greeks, but it is still present.

TonyC
07-30-2017, 03:31 PM
Thanks for your insights. Quick question. Am new to this was wondering what 0 Italian and TS 130 signify? Again really appreciate your feedback.

bryan
07-30-2017, 03:51 PM
With the exception of Sardinians all European groups have some amount of Baltic and East European like scores in varying degrees. This can be explained with the spread of Indo-European languages and the Steppe migrations from East to West which reached Britain, Iberia and pretty much most parts of Continental Europe.

Eurogenes K13 Baltic scores for different groups

49.40 Belarussian
45.49 Polish
32.19 East German
24.02 Irish
16.32 Greek Thessaly
15.66 Lezgin
11.93 North Italian
11.51 Portuguese
11.49 Spanish Cantabria
10.36 Central Greek
10.18 Afghan_Pashtun
10.16 Ashkenazi
9.03 East Sicilian *
7.59 West Sicilian *
1.59 Sardinian
1.81 Sephardic Jewish
1.24 Vietnamese

As We can see it's not necessarily Slavic, but rather a Continental European component which reach it's peak in the North East but it seems widespread across the whole continent.
The Alps seemed to prevent it's spread towards Italy seems the reason why even North Italians have a low 10-12% range. Sicilians surprisingly reach almost the same amounts of Baltic 7-9%. I assume it came from Aberesche, Continental 'Slavicized' Greeks or Northern migrations.

Sikeliot
07-30-2017, 10:25 PM
As We can see it's not necessarily Slavic, but rather a Continental European component which reach it's peak in the North East but it seems widespread across the whole continent.
The Alps seemed to prevent it's spread towards Italy seems the reason why even North Italians have a low 10-12% range. Sicilians surprisingly reach almost the same amounts of Baltic 7-9%. I assume it came from Aberesche, Continental 'Slavicized' Greeks or Northern migrations.


I've seen some Sicilian results with Baltic either not showing up at all, or as low as like, 3%. It is very insignificant there as well as in Sardinia when compared to most other Europeans.

Surfacing
07-31-2017, 05:06 AM
Slavic input? It's pretty minimal right? Compared to Hungarians and Romanians as an example.

Basta
07-31-2017, 11:56 AM
History says that in early Medieval period Greece north of Peloponnese was almost completely Slavic. The Empire started with the program of strong Hellenization in 11th century, so that until 14th century was left only Slavic village here and there.

Sikeliot
07-31-2017, 12:15 PM
History says that in early Medieval period Greece north of Peloponnese was almost completely Slavic. The Empire started with the program of strong Hellenization in 11th century, so that until 14th century was left only Slavic village here and there.

My impression is in the Peloponnese, fewer Slavs ended up assimilated into a larger Greek population, while in the north, the opposite occurred... most of the population is basically Bulgarian-like.

Peloponnesians descend in part from Cretans and Sicilians.

bryan
07-31-2017, 12:31 PM
Sicilians have too high North African and Sardinian like elements to be a good proxy for the Non Slavic Hellene ancestry for modern Greeks.
Cretan Greeks are probably the closest to what Mainlands were before the high numbers of Slavic migrations to the Mainland.
Neither Russians or Ukrainians may be a good source to dig up the Slavic ancestry on Mainland's population because those groups are too North Eurasian shifted and those components are minimal in the Greek population.
Based on the surnames and historical migrations Vlach and Dacian people seem most likely be the key source of Slavic ancestry in modern Greeks.

Sikeliot
07-31-2017, 01:17 PM
Sicilians have too high North African and Sardinian like elements to be a good proxy for the Non Slavic Hellene ancestry for modern Greeks.
Cretan Greeks are probably the closest to what Mainlands were before the high numbers of Slavic migrations to the Mainland.
Neither Russians or Ukrainians may be a good source to dig up the Slavic ancestry on Mainland's population because those groups are too North Eurasian shifted and those components are minimal in the Greek population.
Based on the surnames and historical migrations Vlach and Dacian people most likely be the key source of Slavic ancestry in modern Greeks.

But Sicilians and Cretans today are basically the same. I don't think Sicilians proxy the pre-Slavic mainland because they are not only too North African and western Mediterranean, but also Levantine.

I read somewhere that the best proxy for the Slavic and other "northern" elements in Greece, are Poles.

As for Cretan vs Sicilian, Cretans still have too high Levantine type input to be a good proxy for pre-Slavic mainland Greeks. Why couldn't we use modern Peloponnesians?

bryan
07-31-2017, 04:09 PM
But Sicilians and Cretans today are basically the same. I don't think Sicilians proxy the pre-Slavic mainland because they are not only too North African and western Mediterranean, but also Levantine.

I read somewhere that the best proxy for the Slavic and other "northern" elements in Greece, are Poles.

As for Cretan vs Sicilian, Cretans still have too high Levantine type input to be a good proxy for pre-Slavic mainland Greeks. Why couldn't we use modern Peloponnesians?

Modern Peloponnese has been under the same process as Thessaly and the Northern Mainland. Some Peloponnese Greeks can be as Northern shifted genetically as some Thessalonian, based on the Greek results I've seen. The ones who start to shift towards the Islands usually have had some ancestors from there or even partially Anatolian.

TonyC
08-01-2017, 12:19 AM
Was wondering if you've seen any results from the Laconian Mani region. The history of that region would at least suggest less Slavic genetic influence.

Claudio
08-01-2017, 09:35 PM
My impression is in the Peloponnese, fewer Slavs ended up assimilated into a larger Greek population, while in the north, the opposite occurred... most of the population is basically Bulgarian-like.

Peloponnesians descend in part from Cretans and Sicilians.

This is uncanny..
I coincidentally had just been posting about this on another thread lol
On 23andMe..
Greek islanders score mostly Italian and then some Balkan.
Greek mainlanders score mostly Balkan and then some Italian.
I theorize that Greek ancestry for both Italians and Greeks is represented in the "Italian" score.
The "Balkan" score found in Greeks and Italians is essentially "Slavic" ancestry.
Greek mainlanders have such a large percentage of "Balkan" in there score because although descended from ancient Greeks and still having some Greek ancestry they are of largely Slavic ancestry from the Slavic migrant invasions and eventual later Hellenization of the Slavs.
Same with Italians on 23andMe.. in my opinion an Italians "Greek" ancestry is muddled up in there "Italian" score and vice a Vera's for Greeks "Greek" score being in there "Italian" score..
When Italians score "Balkan" on 23andMe it is not Greek! but Slavic! From noted Slavic migrant waves and mercenary soldiers that came into Italy in the Middle Ages (some noted for fighting the Arabs at the occupation of Bari in southern Italy) but mostly just from Italians legally actually having Slavic slaves in the Middle Ages hence slavic slave trade.There are loads of Articles all over the net on Slavic immigration in Greece and Italy. 🤔

Claudio
08-01-2017, 10:18 PM
🤔
If you take a look at 23andMe's Autosomal map of Italy based on users of full Italian ancestry and take a look at the distribution of "Balkan" sicily and the foot of Italy opposite sicily has the "lowest" amount of Balkan yet (shock! Horror!) the North East corner of Italy (slap bang and right next to) bordering Slovenia & Croatia has the "largest" concentration of Balkan!
Because It's Slavic! Lol
Check the map out 👍

Volat
08-01-2017, 10:19 PM
Greeks are having Slavic ancestry? In the light of Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Slovaks, Belarusians accounting for 85% of Slavdom? Southern Slavs are Slavs due to cultural and linguistic similarities. If we accept Macedonians to be Slavs, then northern Greeks also have Slavic ancestry.

Claudio
08-01-2017, 10:29 PM
Greeks are having Slavic ancestry? In the light of Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Slovaks, Belarusians accounting for 85% of Slavdom? Southern Slavs are Slavs due to cultural and linguistic similarities. If we accept Macedonians to be Slavs, then northern Greeks also have Slavic ancestry.

Yup!
Mainland Greece was over run with Slavic migrants!
They eventually mixed and were Hellenized!

Sikeliot
08-01-2017, 10:33 PM
Was wondering if you've seen any results from the Laconian Mani region. The history of that region would at least suggest less Slavic genetic influence.

It seems central Greece is less Slavic than the Peloponnese, even Laconia.

bryan
08-01-2017, 10:47 PM
Yup!
Mainland Greece was over run with Slavic migrants!
They eventually mixed and were Hellenized!

I think it's free to say that Mainland Greeks are more North-Eastern shifted compared to Southernmost Italians. On average a Greek would be genetically more Near East shifted than the majority of Italians because not every Italians are Calabrese or Sicilian.

To say an example based on Calculators a person from Tuscany can easily come out as 70% Mainland Greek + 30% British, because the extra Atlantic admixture in Tuscans can make them British like compared to Greeks without any single ancestry from there the same reason why Mainland Greeks seem slightly East European shifted compared to Calarese.
While a Southern Italian can be descibed as 20-30% Austrian or Hungarian compared to a North African Jewish.

Sikeliot
08-01-2017, 11:20 PM
I think it's free to say that Mainland Greeks are more North-Eastern shifted compared to Southernmost Italians. On average a Greek would be genetically more Near East shifted than the majority of Italians because not every Italians are Calabrese or Sicilian.

To say an example based on Calculators a person from Tuscany can easily come out as 70% Mainland Greek + 30% British, because the extra Atlantic admixture in Tuscans can make them British like compared to Greeks without any single ancestry from there the same reason why Mainland Greeks seem slightly East European shifted compared to Calarese.
While a Southern Italian can be descibed as 20-30% Austrian or Hungarian compared to a North African Jewish.

I have seen Greeks still have a NE Euro shift relative to the Abruzzese even. So you would have to go further north for what you are saying to be true.

Even without the Slavic component, Greeks have less SW Asian (Saudi-like) DNA than southern Italians, because they never had an Arab conquest.

Agamemnon
08-02-2017, 01:45 AM
Was wondering if you've seen any results from the Laconian Mani region. The history of that region would at least suggest less Slavic genetic influence.

Second that.

Sikeliot
08-02-2017, 01:59 AM
Second that.

Yes. However, to me they still show evidence of Slavic input. From Dodecad K12b:

The first one:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 33.51
2 Atlantic_Med 28.15
3 North_European 20.81
4 Southwest_Asian 9.07
5 Gedrosia 5.79
6 Southeast_Asian 1.16
7 South_Asian 0.8
8 Northwest_African 0.49
9 Sub_Saharan 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 4.53
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 7.08
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 7.59
4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 9.71
5 Sicilian (Dodecad) 9.96
6 Tuscan (HGDP) 9.97
7 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 10.72
8 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 11.1
9 TSI30 (Metspalu) 11.14
10 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 14.29
11 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 14.52
12 Romanians (Behar) 15.6
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 16.05
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.62
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 17.95
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 18.96
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 22.43
18 Cypriots (Behar) 23.29
19 Turks (Behar) 24.99
20 Baleares (1000Genomes) 26.8

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 62% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 38% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.23
2 60% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 40% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 2.42
3 60.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 39.5% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.67
4 64.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 35.7% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 2.69
5 91.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.2% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.76
6 92.1% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.9% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.84
7 92% Greek (Dodecad) + 8% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.84
8 91.7% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.3% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.86
9 92.1% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.9% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.86
10 91.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.2% British (Dodecad) @ 2.86
11 90.9% Greek (Dodecad) + 9.1% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.9
12 91.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.5% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.91
13 91.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.4% English (Dodecad) @ 2.91
14 91.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.4% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.92
15 61.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 38.3% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.94
16 83.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.8% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.95
17 83.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.1% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.95
18 84% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16% Belorussian (Behar) @ 2.95
19 82.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.7% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.96
20 91.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.5% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.97


Another:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 31.36
2 Atlantic_Med 24.72
3 North_European 22.96
4 Southwest_Asian 10.13
5 Gedrosia 6.04
6 Northwest_African 3.18
7 East_Asian 0.83
8 East_African 0.37
9 South_Asian 0.21
10 Siberian 0.2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 7.56
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.23
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 11.08
4 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 11.99
5 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 12.06
6 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 12.28
7 Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.44
8 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.46
9 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 12.79
10 Romanians (Behar) 13.57
11 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.57
12 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.23
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.81
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 17.85
15 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 19.58
16 North_Italian (HGDP) 20.16
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 22.64
18 Cypriots (Behar) 24.68
19 Turks (Behar) 24.81
20 Lebanese (Behar) 26.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 62.1% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 37.9% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.12
2 78.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.6% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.25
3 78.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.5% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.39
4 57% Romanians (Behar) + 43% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 2.42
5 60% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 40% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 2.51
6 63.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 36.5% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.52
7 78.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.1% Russian (Dodecad) @ 2.56
8 59.3% Romanians (Behar) + 40.7% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.56
9 78.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.2% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.62
10 56.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.4% German (Dodecad) @ 2.63
11 63.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 36.5% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.68
12 79.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 20.7% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.76
13 79% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Russian (Dodecad) @ 2.83
14 61.3% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 38.7% Hungarians (Behar) @ 2.91
15 81.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 18.9% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 2.91
16 79.4% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 20.6% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.92
17 78% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.93
18 76.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.2% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.95
19 82.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.8% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 2.95
20 79% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.99



and this one:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 34.59
2 Atlantic_Med 26.8
3 North_European 19.23
4 Southwest_Asian 10.29
5 Gedrosia 7.8
6 Northwest_African 1.18
7 South_Asian 0.1
8 Siberian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 5.06
2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 8.28
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 8.69
4 Sicilian (Dodecad) 8.74
5 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.09
6 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 9.21
7 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 9.73
8 Tuscan (HGDP) 11.74
9 TSI30 (Metspalu) 12.93
10 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 14.54
11 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 16.1
12 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 16.61
13 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 17.16
14 Romanians (Behar) 17.62
15 N_Italian (Dodecad) 18.14
16 Turkish (Dodecad) 19.92
17 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.99
18 Cypriots (Behar) 21
19 Turks (Behar) 22.41
20 Lebanese (Behar) 24.83

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 6.6% Brahui (HGDP) @ 1.11
2 93% Greek (Dodecad) + 7% Balochi (HGDP) @ 1.28
3 92.7% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.3% Makrani (HGDP) @ 1.34
4 63.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 36.3% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.42
5 64.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 35.1% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 1.68
6 65.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 34.3% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2
7 77.3% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 22.7% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 2.04
8 65.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 34.3% English (Dodecad) @ 2.09
9 65.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 34.6% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.19
10 66.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.5% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 2.25
11 67.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.6% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.28
12 66.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.1% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.35
13 67.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.7% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.44
14 77.8% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 22.2% Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) @ 2.46
15 67.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.8% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.52
16 77.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 22.6% Armenian (Dodecad) @ 2.56
17 93.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 6.5% Sindhi (HGDP) @ 2.6
18 92.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.7% Pathan (HGDP) @ 2.63
19 69.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 30.6% Turkish (Dodecad) @ 2.67
20 89.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 10.2% Tajiks (Yunusbayev) @ 2.67



Now, on the other hand, this person from Attica in central Greece, is what a non-Slavicized mainlander looks like. They still are 10% "Russian" like next to a Sicilian, but this is to be expected even for ancients.

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 34.7
2 Atlantic_Med 27.75
3 North_European 16.94
4 Southwest_Asian 11.61
5 Gedrosia 5.66
6 Northwest_African 2.87
7 East_African 0.48

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 5.11
2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 5.48
3 Sicilian (Dodecad) 5.58
4 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 6.66
5 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 6.76
6 C_Italian (Dodecad) 7.59
7 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.79
8 Tuscan (HGDP) 11.47
9 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 11.73
10 TSI30 (Metspalu) 12.66
11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 14.15
12 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 18.26
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 18.5
14 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 18.54
15 Cypriots (Behar) 19.44
16 Romanians (Behar) 19.74
17 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.93
18 Turkish (Dodecad) 20.43
19 Turks (Behar) 23.02
20 Lebanese (Behar) 23.68

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 90.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Russian_B (Behar) @ 1.22
2 90.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.2% Russian (Dodecad) @ 1.25
3 90.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.4% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.25
4 91.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 8.3% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 1.26
5 89.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.2% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.27
6 92.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 7.8% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 1.28
7 90.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 1.31
8 90.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.7% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 1.33
9 77.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 1.42
10 91% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9% Russian (HGDP) @ 1.46
11 92.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 7.6% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.6
12 90.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.7% Polish (Dodecad) @ 1.63
13 79% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Romanians (Behar) @ 1.65
14 92.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 7.7% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.67
15 90.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.79
16 78.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.8% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.84
17 77.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.4% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 1.87
18 90.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.1% Russian (Dodecad) @ 1.9
19 90.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.1% Russian_B (Behar) @ 1.96
20 90% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.96

Agamemnon
08-02-2017, 02:06 AM
Yes. However, to me they still show evidence of Slavic input. From Dodecad K12b:

The first one:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 33.51
2 Atlantic_Med 28.15
3 North_European 20.81
4 Southwest_Asian 9.07
5 Gedrosia 5.79
6 Southeast_Asian 1.16
7 South_Asian 0.8
8 Northwest_African 0.49
9 Sub_Saharan 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 4.53
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 7.08
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 7.59
4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 9.71
5 Sicilian (Dodecad) 9.96
6 Tuscan (HGDP) 9.97
7 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 10.72
8 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 11.1
9 TSI30 (Metspalu) 11.14
10 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 14.29
11 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 14.52
12 Romanians (Behar) 15.6
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 16.05
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.62
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 17.95
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 18.96
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 22.43
18 Cypriots (Behar) 23.29
19 Turks (Behar) 24.99
20 Baleares (1000Genomes) 26.8

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 62% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 38% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.23
2 60% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 40% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 2.42
3 60.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 39.5% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.67
4 64.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 35.7% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 2.69
5 91.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.2% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.76
6 92.1% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.9% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.84
7 92% Greek (Dodecad) + 8% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.84
8 91.7% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.3% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.86
9 92.1% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.9% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.86
10 91.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.2% British (Dodecad) @ 2.86
11 90.9% Greek (Dodecad) + 9.1% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.9
12 91.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.5% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.91
13 91.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.4% English (Dodecad) @ 2.91
14 91.6% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.4% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.92
15 61.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 38.3% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.94
16 83.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.8% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.95
17 83.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.1% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.95
18 84% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16% Belorussian (Behar) @ 2.95
19 82.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.7% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.96
20 91.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 8.5% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.97


Another:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 31.36
2 Atlantic_Med 24.72
3 North_European 22.96
4 Southwest_Asian 10.13
5 Gedrosia 6.04
6 Northwest_African 3.18
7 East_Asian 0.83
8 East_African 0.37
9 South_Asian 0.21
10 Siberian 0.2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 7.56
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.23
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 11.08
4 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 11.99
5 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 12.06
6 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 12.28
7 Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.44
8 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 12.46
9 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 12.79
10 Romanians (Behar) 13.57
11 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.57
12 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.23
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.81
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 17.85
15 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 19.58
16 North_Italian (HGDP) 20.16
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 22.64
18 Cypriots (Behar) 24.68
19 Turks (Behar) 24.81
20 Lebanese (Behar) 26.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 62.1% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 37.9% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.12
2 78.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.6% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.25
3 78.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.5% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.39
4 57% Romanians (Behar) + 43% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 2.42
5 60% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 40% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 2.51
6 63.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 36.5% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.52
7 78.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.1% Russian (Dodecad) @ 2.56
8 59.3% Romanians (Behar) + 40.7% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.56
9 78.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.2% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.62
10 56.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.4% German (Dodecad) @ 2.63
11 63.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 36.5% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.68
12 79.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 20.7% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.76
13 79% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Russian (Dodecad) @ 2.83
14 61.3% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 38.7% Hungarians (Behar) @ 2.91
15 81.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 18.9% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 2.91
16 79.4% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 20.6% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.92
17 78% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.93
18 76.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.2% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.95
19 82.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.8% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 2.95
20 79% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.99



and this one:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 34.59
2 Atlantic_Med 26.8
3 North_European 19.23
4 Southwest_Asian 10.29
5 Gedrosia 7.8
6 Northwest_African 1.18
7 South_Asian 0.1
8 Siberian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 5.06
2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 8.28
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 8.69
4 Sicilian (Dodecad) 8.74
5 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.09
6 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 9.21
7 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 9.73
8 Tuscan (HGDP) 11.74
9 TSI30 (Metspalu) 12.93
10 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 14.54
11 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 16.1
12 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 16.61
13 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 17.16
14 Romanians (Behar) 17.62
15 N_Italian (Dodecad) 18.14
16 Turkish (Dodecad) 19.92
17 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.99
18 Cypriots (Behar) 21
19 Turks (Behar) 22.41
20 Lebanese (Behar) 24.83

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 6.6% Brahui (HGDP) @ 1.11
2 93% Greek (Dodecad) + 7% Balochi (HGDP) @ 1.28
3 92.7% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.3% Makrani (HGDP) @ 1.34
4 63.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 36.3% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.42
5 64.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 35.1% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 1.68
6 65.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 34.3% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2
7 77.3% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 22.7% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 2.04
8 65.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 34.3% English (Dodecad) @ 2.09
9 65.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 34.6% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.19
10 66.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.5% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 2.25
11 67.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.6% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.28
12 66.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.1% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.35
13 67.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.7% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.44
14 77.8% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 22.2% Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) @ 2.46
15 67.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.8% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.52
16 77.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 22.6% Armenian (Dodecad) @ 2.56
17 93.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 6.5% Sindhi (HGDP) @ 2.6
18 92.3% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.7% Pathan (HGDP) @ 2.63
19 69.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 30.6% Turkish (Dodecad) @ 2.67
20 89.8% Greek (Dodecad) + 10.2% Tajiks (Yunusbayev) @ 2.67



Now, on the other hand, this person from Attica in central Greece, is what a non-Slavicized mainlander looks like. They still are 10% "Russian" like next to a Sicilian, but this is to be expected even for ancients.

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 34.7
2 Atlantic_Med 27.75
3 North_European 16.94
4 Southwest_Asian 11.61
5 Gedrosia 5.66
6 Northwest_African 2.87
7 East_African 0.48

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 5.11
2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 5.48
3 Sicilian (Dodecad) 5.58
4 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 6.66
5 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 6.76
6 C_Italian (Dodecad) 7.59
7 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.79
8 Tuscan (HGDP) 11.47
9 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 11.73
10 TSI30 (Metspalu) 12.66
11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 14.15
12 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 18.26
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 18.5
14 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 18.54
15 Cypriots (Behar) 19.44
16 Romanians (Behar) 19.74
17 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.93
18 Turkish (Dodecad) 20.43
19 Turks (Behar) 23.02
20 Lebanese (Behar) 23.68

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 90.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Russian_B (Behar) @ 1.22
2 90.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.2% Russian (Dodecad) @ 1.25
3 90.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.4% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.25
4 91.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 8.3% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 1.26
5 89.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.2% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.27
6 92.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 7.8% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 1.28
7 90.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 1.31
8 90.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.7% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 1.33
9 77.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 1.42
10 91% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9% Russian (HGDP) @ 1.46
11 92.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 7.6% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.6
12 90.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.7% Polish (Dodecad) @ 1.63
13 79% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Romanians (Behar) @ 1.65
14 92.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 7.7% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.67
15 90.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.79
16 78.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.8% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.84
17 77.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.4% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 1.87
18 90.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.1% Russian (Dodecad) @ 1.9
19 90.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.1% Russian_B (Behar) @ 1.96
20 90% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.96

Can you post their Eurogenes K13 and PuntDNAL K13 Global & K15 results? I tend not to put too much stock in Dodecad K12b when dealing with Mediterranean populations.

Sikeliot
08-02-2017, 02:19 AM
Can you post their Eurogenes K13 and PuntDNAL K13 Global & K15 results? I tend not to put too much stock in Dodecad K12b when dealing with Mediterranean populations.

Should I just send their GEDmatch IDs?

Agamemnon
08-02-2017, 02:21 AM
Should I just send their GEDmatch IDs?

Sure, I'd appreciate that!

Sikeliot
08-02-2017, 11:22 AM
Sure, I'd appreciate that!

I sent them to you.

Dibran
10-24-2017, 07:42 PM
This is IBD sharing, not autosomal ancestry.

What is the difference between IBD sharing and Autosomal?

Dibran
10-25-2017, 12:38 PM
these are iron age and classical era balkanic phenotypes, nothing to do with northern europeans. those people in the mosaic look like albanians

lmao the one on the left does look like my brother in law, albeit a very fair one.

Dibran
10-25-2017, 01:04 PM
Stature is mostly influenced by nutrition + life style. The tallest people in the Balkans were the Highlanders; rich dairy and meat diet + less physical work (relaxed for most of the winter, shut down up there from snow, and during spring/summer boys while young were in most cases shepherds that wondered with their flocks of sheep or cattle, so they barely did any hard work). Farmers in other hand did hard work when young, which stunted their growth. Look at Dutch, they were the shortest in Europe a century ago and now are the tallest. Lack of resources the opposite happens, have a look at how Homo Floresiensis went through the process of dwarfisation in the island of Indonesia.

The low landers, where majority of the Slavs settled, were farmers, like majority of the Slavs, and were short to medium in stature - rarely they had some really tall folk. Now you lost all your credibility. If such were the case, Sardinians and the rest of the Slavs, Bulgarians included since they do have a descent amount of I2, would have been the tallest people of Europe.

Yea, my fathers side were mostly farmers/builders(average to slightly tall). Grandmothers side mainly farmers(average to short). My moms side were Malesor, didn't do much farming, all my uncles are at least 6 foot or more. I am only a hair shy of 5'9, slightly taller than my father. I have a shitty diet though, even stunted my growth since I was heavier as a kid. Doctors said I was supposed to be 5'11-6', taking into account a healthy activity level and diet.

Dibran
10-25-2017, 01:23 PM
🤔
If you take a look at 23andMe's Autosomal map of Italy based on users of full Italian ancestry and take a look at the distribution of "Balkan" sicily and the foot of Italy opposite sicily has the "lowest" amount of Balkan yet (shock! Horror!) the North East corner of Italy (slap bang and right next to) bordering Slovenia & Croatia has the "largest" concentration of Balkan!
Because It's Slavic! Lol
Check the map out 👍

you're full of it. Albanians score the highest Balkan, especially Ghegs, upwards of 90-97 percent. The actual Slavs score little. Now if you mentioned the Balkan component on MyHeritage I would agree, as in this version Albanians score negligible amounts of Balkan and Slavs very high amounts.

vettor
10-25-2017, 04:45 PM
depends on the testing company and what they use as balkan..........some have balkan as, no slovenia, romania or istria and other testers include some of these 3 or all of them in their term balkan

some include the julian alps ( part of the alps ) in slovenia and istria ...........and others include these julian alps under balkan along with the dinaric alps

Dibran
10-25-2017, 05:25 PM
depends on the testing company and what they use as balkan..........some have balkan as, no slovenia, romania or istria and other testers include some of these 3 or all of them in their term balkan

some include the julian alps ( part of the alps ) in slovenia and istria ...........and others include these julian alps under balkan along with the dinaric alps

Yes, exactly. However, in the case of 23andme Balkan, is highest among Albanians, with Ghegs scoring well over 90 percent, Tosk usually score in the 80's. Its not based on Slavic(or south Slavic specifically). If it was, these percentages would be negligible among Albanians and in the 90s for Southern Slavs, which is obviously not the case. The highest I see Slavs score is up to 60 percent, and this is usually among Macedonians, and Bulgarians who are autosomally closer to Greeks/Albanians. I think Dorkymon also posted a large list of Romanian 23andme results. All of which ranged from 20-60 Balkan. There may have been an outlier with higher scores, but generally the elevated Balkan scores are only found with Albanians.

eastara
10-26-2017, 12:12 AM
Yes, exactly. However, in the case of 23andme Balkan, is highest among Albanians, with Ghegs scoring well over 90 percent, Tosk usually score in the 80's. Its not based on Slavic(or south Slavic specifically). If it was, these percentages would be negligible among Albanians and in the 90s for Southern Slavs, which is obviously not the case. The highest I see Slavs score is up to 60 percent, and this is usually among Macedonians, and Bulgarians who are autosomally closer to Greeks/Albanians. I think Dorkymon also posted a large list of Romanian 23andme results. All of which ranged from 20-60 Balkan. There may have been an outlier with higher scores, but generally the elevated Balkan scores are only found with Albanians.

Albanians score 90% Balkan not because they are somehow more indigenous, but they are closer to other Albanians, who are used as reference. Bulgarians are not so close to each other, hence they score only 60-70%. About Romanians it has been noted before they are heterogeneous, some in fact closer to Hungarians and Ukrainians, and score less Balkan.

Dibran
10-26-2017, 02:06 AM
Albanians score 90% Balkan not because they are somehow more indigenous, but they are closer to other Albanians, who are used as reference. Bulgarians are not so close to each other, hence they score only 60-70%. About Romanians it has been noted before they are heterogeneous, some in fact closer to Hungarians and Ukrainians, and score less Balkan.

You are basically reiterating my point. Balkan is based more on neolithic like components native to southeast europe. It is higher in Albanians simply because Albanians are in fact Homogenous and do have higher neolithic ancestry in the Balkans on average compared to their neighbors. Also that is why I iterated the point that Balkan has a range of 20-60 for Slavs and Romanians from what I noticed, varying region to region. Probably indicated varied origin. To say Balkan is specifically Albanian is to say anyone with a Balkan percentage has Albanian ancestry. Which sound more ridiculous to you? the fact its a neolithic component or an Albanian one? I am fairly certain its the former rather than latter. Which explains why its higher in Albanians and Greeks. Even Macedonians and Bulgarians are autosomally closer to Greeks and Albanians. You will notice the more Slavic admixed groups score lower balkan component, which I believe is just a proxy for neolithic like ancestry.

Skerdilaidas
10-26-2017, 03:16 AM
Albanians score 90% Balkan not because they are somehow more indigenous, but they are closer to other Albanians, who are used as reference. Bulgarians are not so close to each other, hence they score only 60-70%. About Romanians it has been noted before they are heterogeneous, some in fact closer to Hungarians and Ukrainians, and score less Balkan.

There were only like 5 Albanians in the hypothetical Balkan cluster at 23andme last time I checked. In large majority the cluster is composed of Greeks and south Slavs, there is almost as many Maltese as Albanians in there lol.

How does your statement make any sense?

Sikeliot
10-26-2017, 04:08 AM
What is interesting is on GEDmatch I have seen a number of Thessalians, Macedonians, and Epirotes who are closer to the Bulgarian reference populations rather than to the Albanian ones. I think parts of Greece have more Slavic admixture than Albania has.

Dibran
10-26-2017, 04:09 AM
There were only like 5 Albanians in the hypothetical Balkan cluster at 23andme last time I checked. In large majority the cluster is composed of Greeks and south Slavs, there is almost as many Maltese as Albanians in there lol.

How does your statement make any sense?

It would make little sense that this component is based on South Slavs and Greeks predominantly, when they both score nearly twice as low as Albanians in this component. Now, if as you mentioned this cluster has 5 Albanians, could these 5 Albanians be what skews our results to high Balkan? Given we cluster with those 5 samples?

That would make sense. Maybe if more Albanians tested, the results would be adjusted? I do know Albanians are not part of the Balkan sample on MyHeritage and so we normally score 'Greek' which is a proxy for Greek/Albanian/Bulgarian. I score 10 percent or so of Balkan on myheritage. My father none. My mom is from Puka. I noticed many Malsore had a bit of Balkan in their myheritage. I just uploaded my moms raw data to myheritage, so we shall see what she gets. I think shes mixed though. Has 13 percent East Balkan on K36.

eastara
10-26-2017, 10:44 AM
The fact that Albanians are autosomally very close to each other is supported by other studies. 5 references may be enough that everybody else is close to them. However, there are Albanians who score much less - like 70%. I used to invite all available Balkanians to share on 23andMe, when it was the only good commercial Admixture test, so have a good picture about that.
Sometimes people are closer to other neighbouring ethnicities, than to their own average. I think the 23andMe algorithm does not give the average comparison to all Balkan samples, but rather the closest. Initially I scored 100% Balkan as I was used as a reference. Later they improved the algorithm, but still those used as a reference and their closest relatives could have a biased score.

Sikeliot
11-12-2017, 02:24 PM
Now that we have ancient populations to use as models, when you compare to Mycenaeans, how Slavic are modern Greeks? And how Levantine are Sicilians and southern Italians?

lukaszM
01-23-2018, 11:53 AM
The fact that Albanians are autosomally very close to each other is supported by other studies. 5 references may be enough that everybody else is close to them. However, there are Albanians who score much less - like 70%. I used to invite all available Balkanians to share on 23andMe, when it was the only good commercial Admixture test, so have a good picture about that.
Sometimes people are closer to other neighbouring ethnicities, than to their own average. I think the 23andMe algorithm does not give the average comparison to all Balkan samples, but rather the closest. Initially I scored 100% Balkan as I was used as a reference. Later they improved the algorithm, but still those used as a reference and their closest relatives could have a biased score.

Hi, how do you know you were reference? They informed you? Or only from this 100% score?

eastara
01-24-2018, 01:13 AM
Hi, how do you know you were reference? They informed you? Or only from this 100% score?

Yes, a few years ago 23andMe used their own clients as references as there were no Balkan scientific samples. They have written how many from each ethnicity, but did not inform personally, the clue was showing 100% something. This is because the algorithm was looking for the closest match and I was a perfect one with myself. I think Dienekes himself pointed how to avoid this, by dividing them into groups of 5, etc. I don't remember exactly. This was fixed, but not very fast, maybe after about a year in the next version and I fell from 100% Balkan to 65%.
I think something like that is happening with FTDNA MyOrigins as some Balkan people, for example, show 100% SouthEast Europe, they are probably used as references.

Alexandra_K
06-06-2018, 06:08 AM
Hello,
I score 100% Southeast Europe at FTDNA and I wondered why there could be no more variation (in all other vendors my results are much more variable).
I am Greek. My mother comes 100% from Epirus and my father 50% from Kephalonia and 50% from Kea.

As to the beginning of the thread, I noticed you used the K15 results of some Greeks in order to compare. I could also post mine if you are interested - as well as my mother's and father's. They are based on MyHeritage raw data which was the first company I ever tested with (last year). I also have my husband's who is Italian (with roots from Marche and Sicily).

By the way, is K15 more accurate than K13? For some reason I was recommended to use K13 mainly.

Alexandra_K
06-06-2018, 06:17 AM
I forgot to mention that according to our family history from Epirus (area of Ioannina), the family has also Vlach and Arvanite roots, plus historically our village used to be one of the Slavic settlements of the Middle Ages (named Tserkovista until 1928). Concerning the history of the village, I have read that mainly Slavic men would marry to local women back then and that the Slavic element became gradually assimilated (genetically and culturally) through the centuries. The center of our village was called until recently Selio (from selo). The village was afterwards also occupied by Bulgarians, Serbians and last but not least, the Ottomans. Hence my curosity to understand if all this still shows in autosomal DNA.
I don't know as many details about the family/local history regarding Kephalonia and Kea (only the general historical info regading the two islands).