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wandering_amorite
02-05-2016, 05:58 AM
http://jewishdna.net/

^ I'm not sure if this has been posted about before, but the author has gathered pretty juicy, substantial data showing about 100 distinctive, fine-grained Y-lineages in the Ashkenazi population, each with its own interesting implications. I've never seen anything this exhaustive. An interesting note on the less informative, big-picture scale: 95.4% of Ashkenazi males belong to a branch of Haplogroup J, R, E, G, or Q. Add I, T, and L into the mix and you're at 100%. Contra the Khazar hypothesis (which can never fully be ruled out, especially because of that smidgen of East Asian ancestry that always shows up in the autosomal data), not a single case of C or N.

A surprising tidbit on the finer scale: E1b-L791, my lineage and one of E-M34's major sublineages, is apparently all descended from a single ancestor in the Ashkenazi population, accounting for 5.6% of all men, which makes it the 5th commonest lineage out of about 100.

Thoughts?

Tomenable
03-01-2016, 02:31 AM
Contra the Khazar hypothesis (which can never fully be ruled out, especially because of that smidgen of East Asian ancestry that always shows up in the autosomal data), not a single case of C or N.

But where did you take this information about C or N ??? We - actually - do have Khazar aDNA samples.

Saltovo-Mayaki culture (years 800-900 AD; associated with the Khazar Kaganate) - 4 samples:

Individual - haplogroups:

A80301 - R1a1a1b2a (Y-DNA), I4a (mtDNA)
A80302 - D4m2 (mtDNA)
A80410 - G (Y-DNA)
A80411 - J2a (Y-DNA)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltovo-Mayaki

"Saltovo-Mayaki is the name given by archaeologists to the early medieval culture of the Pontic steppe region roughly between the Don and the Dnieper Rivers. Their culture was a melting pot of Onogur, Khazar, Pecheneg, Magyar, Alan, and Slavic influences. During the ninth century the Saltovo-Mayaki culture was closely associated with the Khazar Khaganate, and archaeological sites from this period are one way that historians track the geographic scope of Khazar influence."

Tomenable
03-01-2016, 02:42 AM
However, we do not have aDNA from Early Medieval or Ancient Jews.

The oldest surviving Jewish male grave in Europe, is the grave of Jacob ha-Bachur, from ca. year 1076/1077, in Worms:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/J%C3%BCdischer_Friedhof_Worms-4277.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/J%C3%BCdischer_Friedhof_Worms-4277.jpg

And here the grave of Yaakov ben Moshe Levi Moelin (born 1365 - died September 14, 1427), also from the same cemetery:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Raschi_grave.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Raschi_grave.jpg

Tomenable
03-24-2016, 11:25 PM
For the record:

Saltovo-Mayaki samples mentioned above, are from this publication (in Russian) by Gennady Afanasiev:

https://www.academia.edu/15713987/Афанасьев_Г.Е._Вень_Ш._Тун_С._Ван_Л._Вэй_Л._Добров ольская_М.В._Коробов_Д.С._Решетова_И.К._Ли_Х.._Хаз арские_конфедераты_в_бассейне_Дона_Естественнонауч ные_методы_исследования_и_парадигма_современной_ар хеологии._М._2015._С.146-153

A table with all samples is on page 152.

Agamemnon
03-25-2016, 01:08 AM
Here's what is said about my own lineage (ZS227, which is directly upstream from Z18271):

In this overview we defined five Ashkenazi J1-ZS227 branches. The J1-ZS227 branch has a Heinila timescale of 2.3 kybp. The present best estimate is 2.5kybp and is based on yfull. Above it is ZS241 which is just below YSC234.

J1-ZS227-1st
J1-ZS227-2nd
J1-ZS227-3rd
J1-ZS227-S12192
J1-ZS227-2762310
In the definition used here, we get five branches. It is likely that the phylogentic tree is more complex than the suggestion that we have five persons arriving in the Ashkenazi countries. The 4 branches are close together and the branches themselves are "broad", so likely they consist of different branches themselves. For the analysis of phylogenetic Jewish trees, it is probably one of the most interesting complex Jewish branches coming from Judea.

It is very likely that the children of ZS227-group (that have all the reported 24 markers) were Jewish is Judea-Israel. First estimate is 500 BCE (accuracy of about 500 years). One of the branches is S10608 (which is one of 7 equal markers). This branch has two subbranches (S12192 and 2762310), which are both Ashkenazi. The SNP's of the Ashkenazi groups ZS227-1st and ZS227-2nd are not yet sequenced with Big-Y or FullGenomes.

With all the available data of the J1-ZS227 group, it is expected that the descendant lines are Jewish or conversos. No other lines are found.

The people in these groups are often called the Cohen haplotype. The definition is not very strict, which lead to many confusing reports in the literature.

This group has many people on the Sephardic page of ftdna: N64408 Cohen from Turkey and Benveniste (4890) from Spain and Benveniste (105130) from Turkey, 201445 (Cohen, Iran), 68780 (Anzaroot, Syrian), 41226 (Anzarut, Lebanon), 252433 (Cohen, Egypt), 213201 (Evans, Italy).

In the public data one person is found as ZS241+ ZS227-. This is 165857 from Egypt. No information is found on the background of this person. ZS241+ has a Heinila time estimate of 3.7kybp.

See also the discussion on Cohen.

It makes it clear that the Cohen Jewish Priesthood is seriously given from father to son over the complete phylogenetic tree from the most recent common ancestor of this group to present. The tmrca by using STR and SNP is about 2.3-2.6 kybp. This means 600 BCE or 300 BCE. The error ranges are still quite large that it is inprinciple possible that the tmrca is after the year 0; however it is unlikely. It is most likely that it originated in the early period of Judaism.

An older article on this subject is by Hammer, Behar et al. (2009). They give some information on geographical distribution of some people in this group.

AJL
03-25-2016, 03:26 AM
Add I, T, and L into the mix and you're at 100%. {EDIT} ...not a single case of C or N.

The 100% is due to rounding, I guess? Because there is one Ashkenazi C-M8 and one Ashkenazi F at 23andme that I know of. They seem extremely rare though, and neither has had his Y tested at FTDNA to my knowledge.

seferhabahir
03-25-2016, 04:22 PM
Here is what it says about my paternal branch..

"This branch comes from Western-Europe. It is most likely a person was converted to Judaism in Iberia or Western-Europe. Some persons can be found in ftdna project of Z251. A555 is only found in Jewish members of this group. The parent group (S9294) has only people from Scotland and England. I have not yet found an indication of a time estimate of the MRCA of the S9294."

I think the above is a common misconception that I have been arguing against for years, with my view now well supported by recent NGS results. I can't explain why people think the common ancestor of A555 Jews was likely a convert to Judaism in the Middle Ages when it is obvious the time of divergence of that led to the ancestor of the Jewish group in L21 looks to be about 4000 years ago and there are no non-Jews with similar STRs or SNPs. If a recent conversion, I would think there would be some non-Jews with A555 or similar SNPs. Yfull lists the time of S9294 at 4000 years ago, and that is when the Jewish ancestral divergence likely occurred (albeit probably in Southern Europe).

As I have mentioned in other threads, this Jewish L21 branch most likely comes from a person who might have converted to Judaism in the Levant 3000 years ago after a sea voyage in the Mediterranean (Sherdan maybe, a la Adam Zertal's El-Ahwat conjecture?), and not in Western Europe 1000 ago, which is the TMRCA. One of these days, someone will uncover a Middle Eastern tester with L21 (would be the first ever as far as I know, and if ever there was someone in the Middle East with L21 it would be somebody related to the Ashkenazi Jews and not the Scotland or England branches of S9294). Just my two cents.

EDIT: Just to be accurate, the ancestral Jewish divergence happened after FGC11986 (not S9294).

seferhabahir
03-25-2016, 04:41 PM
As I have mentioned in other threads, this Jewish L21 branch most likely comes from a person who might have converted to Judaism in the Levant 3000 years ago after a sea voyage in the Mediterranean (Sherdan maybe, a la Adam Zertal's El-Ahwat conjecture?), and not in Western Europe 1000 ago, which is the TMRCA. One of these days, someone will uncover a Middle Eastern tester with L21 (would be the first ever as far as I know, and if ever there was someone in the Middle East with L21 it would be somebody related to the Ashkenazi Jews and not the Scotland or England branches of S9294). Just my two cents.

By coincidence, I was within 10 miles of the El-Ahwat site last week while visiting Caesarea (perhaps where my long lost ancestor landed his ship)...

8368

John Doe
03-25-2016, 05:08 PM
Here's what is said about my own lineage (ZS227, which is directly upstream from Z18271):

In this overview we defined five Ashkenazi J1-ZS227 branches. The J1-ZS227 branch has a Heinila timescale of 2.3 kybp. The present best estimate is 2.5kybp and is based on yfull. Above it is ZS241 which is just below YSC234.

J1-ZS227-1st
J1-ZS227-2nd
J1-ZS227-3rd
J1-ZS227-S12192
J1-ZS227-2762310
In the definition used here, we get five branches. It is likely that the phylogentic tree is more complex than the suggestion that we have five persons arriving in the Ashkenazi countries. The 4 branches are close together and the branches themselves are "broad", so likely they consist of different branches themselves. For the analysis of phylogenetic Jewish trees, it is probably one of the most interesting complex Jewish branches coming from Judea.

It is very likely that the children of ZS227-group (that have all the reported 24 markers) were Jewish is Judea-Israel. First estimate is 500 BCE (accuracy of about 500 years). One of the branches is S10608 (which is one of 7 equal markers). This branch has two subbranches (S12192 and 2762310), which are both Ashkenazi. The SNP's of the Ashkenazi groups ZS227-1st and ZS227-2nd are not yet sequenced with Big-Y or FullGenomes.

With all the available data of the J1-ZS227 group, it is expected that the descendant lines are Jewish or conversos. No other lines are found.

The people in these groups are often called the Cohen haplotype. The definition is not very strict, which lead to many confusing reports in the literature.

This group has many people on the Sephardic page of ftdna: N64408 Cohen from Turkey and Benveniste (4890) from Spain and Benveniste (105130) from Turkey, 201445 (Cohen, Iran), 68780 (Anzaroot, Syrian), 41226 (Anzarut, Lebanon), 252433 (Cohen, Egypt), 213201 (Evans, Italy).

In the public data one person is found as ZS241+ ZS227-. This is 165857 from Egypt. No information is found on the background of this person. ZS241+ has a Heinila time estimate of 3.7kybp.

See also the discussion on Cohen.

It makes it clear that the Cohen Jewish Priesthood is seriously given from father to son over the complete phylogenetic tree from the most recent common ancestor of this group to present. The tmrca by using STR and SNP is about 2.3-2.6 kybp. This means 600 BCE or 300 BCE. The error ranges are still quite large that it is inprinciple possible that the tmrca is after the year 0; however it is unlikely. It is most likely that it originated in the early period of Judaism.

An older article on this subject is by Hammer, Behar et al. (2009). They give some information on geographical distribution of some people in this group.

I'm a confirmed Z827, unfortunately it doesn't seem to be specific enough to give me much info. Any prediction of a more downstream marker?

Viktor Reznov
03-30-2016, 06:14 AM
Thanks for the site. Pretty interesting. I see that the collector of data made a pretty clear distinction between L556 and other M92 lineages, and that this distinction is well-reflected in the frequency of those lineages. I tested with 23andme and unfortunately they only check for M92 and L556. I wonder if it's possible that there are other, undiscovered "Jewish" branches under that SNP. I might just get a more informative test myself.

Here is what it says about my paternal branch..

"This branch comes from Western-Europe. It is most likely a person was converted to Judaism in Iberia or Western-Europe. Some persons can be found in ftdna project of Z251. A555 is only found in Jewish members of this group. The parent group (S9294) has only people from Scotland and England. I have not yet found an indication of a time estimate of the MRCA of the S9294."

I think the above is a common misconception that I have been arguing against for years, with my view now well supported by recent NGS results. I can't explain why people think the common ancestor of A555 Jews was likely a convert to Judaism in the Middle Ages when it is obvious the time of divergence of that led to the ancestor of the Jewish group in L21 looks to be about 4000 years ago and there are no non-Jews with similar STRs or SNPs. If a recent conversion, I would think there would be some non-Jews with A555 or similar SNPs. Yfull lists the time of S9294 at 4000 years ago, and that is when the Jewish ancestral divergence likely occurred (albeit probably in Southern Europe).

As I have mentioned in other threads, this Jewish L21 branch most likely comes from a person who might have converted to Judaism in the Levant 3000 years ago after a sea voyage in the Mediterranean (Sherdan maybe, a la Adam Zertal's El-Ahwat conjecture?), and not in Western Europe 1000 ago, which is the TMRCA. One of these days, someone will uncover a Middle Eastern tester with L21 (would be the first ever as far as I know, and if ever there was someone in the Middle East with L21 it would be somebody related to the Ashkenazi Jews and not the Scotland or England branches of S9294). Just my two cents.

EDIT: Just to be accurate, the ancestral Jewish divergence happened after FGC11986 (not S9294).
It certainly is a mystery. L21 is associated with Celts and the Sea Peoples came from around the Aegean. Maybe your ancestor got really lost :P
I agree with you that the fact the ME is pretty under-studied for obvious reasons makes it reasonable to suggest its an old Middle-Eastern line, coupled with the deep time of divergence from Europeans.

http://jewishdna.net/

^ I'm not sure if this has been posted about before, but the author has gathered pretty juicy, substantial data showing about 100 distinctive, fine-grained Y-lineages in the Ashkenazi population, each with its own interesting implications. I've never seen anything this exhaustive. An interesting note on the less informative, big-picture scale: 95.4% of Ashkenazi males belong to a branch of Haplogroup J, R, E, G, or Q. Add I, T, and L into the mix and you're at 100%. Contra the Khazar hypothesis (which can never fully be ruled out, especially because of that smidgen of East Asian ancestry that always shows up in the autosomal data), not a single case of C or N.

A surprising tidbit on the finer scale: E1b-L791, my lineage and one of E-M34's major sublineages, is apparently all descended from a single ancestor in the Ashkenazi population, accounting for 5.6% of all men, which makes it the 5th commonest lineage out of about 100.

Thoughts?
The problem, from the standpoint of the proponents of the Khazar theory, is the fact they claim Jews should score something like 50% East Asian on all tests, not 1%.

wandering_amorite
03-31-2016, 09:25 PM
The Khazar hypothesis in its orthodox form is obviously dead. I'm just talking about the question of whether there's any Khazar contribution to speak of.

seferhabahir
03-31-2016, 11:32 PM
It certainly is a mystery. L21 is associated with Celts and the Sea Peoples came from around the Aegean. Maybe your ancestor got really lost :P
I agree with you that the fact the ME is pretty under-studied for obvious reasons makes it reasonable to suggest its an old Middle-Eastern line, coupled with the deep time of divergence from Europeans.

My suggestion is based on L21 being more associated with Bell Beaker populations that predate Celts. Bell Beaker made it into Sardinia and Sicily before there were Celts in Europe, which is why I bring up Sherdan in Sardinia as a possibility. Also a continuing mystery to me is why there are no other L21 haplogroups with Jews in them, just Z251 > Z18600 > S11556 > S9294 > BY3230 > FGC11986 > A555. I know you were just kidding, but instead of getting lost, the original A555 guy was a descendant of somebody that likely just sailed off and disappeared from Europe. Finding some non-Jews with many shared SNPs between FGC11986 and A555 would lead me to think much more seriously about Roman Empire era conversions from 2000 years ago.

seferhabahir
04-05-2016, 12:16 AM
My suggestion is based on L21 being more associated with Bell Beaker populations that predate Celts. Bell Beaker made it into Sardinia and Sicily before there were Celts in Europe, which is why I bring up Sherdan in Sardinia as a possibility.

Here are some ways that a piece of R-Z251 might have made its way into Sardinia about the time of my estimates for divergence of the Jewish precursor A555 lineage from the rest of FGC11986 (about 1750 BCE - note that YFull estimates S9294 formation around 2000 BCE) somewhere in Central Europe. The Bonnanaro culture is the last evolution of Bell Beaker culture in Sardinia, and likely a precursor of Nuragic culture, the key that Adam Zertal was using to link Sherdan in Sardinia to archaeological sites in Canaan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnanaro_culture

"The Bonnanaro culture is a protohistoric culture that flourished in Sardinia during the 2nd millennium BC (1800-1600 BC), considered to be the first stage of the Nuragic civilization... The Bonnanaro culture had been described by scholars as the Sardinian regionalization of the pan-European Bell Beaker culture, with some influences from the Polada culture of northern Italy. Starting from the late Copper Age, the island was settled by people who came probably by sea from Spain, southern France (early Beaker phase) and Central Europe (late Beaker phase) in various small waves. Polada culture influences, regarding ceramics in particular, are especially strong in the early Bonnanaro phase (or Bonnanaro A1)."

All pretty circumstantial stuff, but the key pieces seem to be here to produce a highly isolated genetic haplogroup with a possible history in the Middle East and with no real STR or SNP relationships (e.g., DYS388=11 and A555) to the rest L21 after my estimated divergence date.

See also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture_in_Sardinia

Viktor Reznov
07-21-2016, 01:49 PM
Here's what is said about my own lineage (ZS227, which is directly upstream from Z18271):

In this overview we defined five Ashkenazi J1-ZS227 branches. The J1-ZS227 branch has a Heinila timescale of 2.3 kybp. The present best estimate is 2.5kybp and is based on yfull. Above it is ZS241 which is just below YSC234.

J1-ZS227-1st
J1-ZS227-2nd
J1-ZS227-3rd
J1-ZS227-S12192
J1-ZS227-2762310
In the definition used here, we get five branches. It is likely that the phylogentic tree is more complex than the suggestion that we have five persons arriving in the Ashkenazi countries. The 4 branches are close together and the branches themselves are "broad", so likely they consist of different branches themselves. For the analysis of phylogenetic Jewish trees, it is probably one of the most interesting complex Jewish branches coming from Judea.

It is very likely that the children of ZS227-group (that have all the reported 24 markers) were Jewish is Judea-Israel. First estimate is 500 BCE (accuracy of about 500 years). One of the branches is S10608 (which is one of 7 equal markers). This branch has two subbranches (S12192 and 2762310), which are both Ashkenazi. The SNP's of the Ashkenazi groups ZS227-1st and ZS227-2nd are not yet sequenced with Big-Y or FullGenomes.

With all the available data of the J1-ZS227 group, it is expected that the descendant lines are Jewish or conversos. No other lines are found.

The people in these groups are often called the Cohen haplotype. The definition is not very strict, which lead to many confusing reports in the literature.

This group has many people on the Sephardic page of ftdna: N64408 Cohen from Turkey and Benveniste (4890) from Spain and Benveniste (105130) from Turkey, 201445 (Cohen, Iran), 68780 (Anzaroot, Syrian), 41226 (Anzarut, Lebanon), 252433 (Cohen, Egypt), 213201 (Evans, Italy).

In the public data one person is found as ZS241+ ZS227-. This is 165857 from Egypt. No information is found on the background of this person. ZS241+ has a Heinila time estimate of 3.7kybp.

See also the discussion on Cohen.

It makes it clear that the Cohen Jewish Priesthood is seriously given from father to son over the complete phylogenetic tree from the most recent common ancestor of this group to present. The tmrca by using STR and SNP is about 2.3-2.6 kybp. This means 600 BCE or 300 BCE. The error ranges are still quite large that it is inprinciple possible that the tmrca is after the year 0; however it is unlikely. It is most likely that it originated in the early period of Judaism.

An older article on this subject is by Hammer, Behar et al. (2009). They give some information on geographical distribution of some people in this group.
Truest Judean from the mountains of Judea;)

Ethereal
03-23-2018, 06:46 PM
Here is what it says about my paternal branch..

"This branch comes from Western-Europe. It is most likely a person was converted to Judaism in Iberia or Western-Europe. Some persons can be found in ftdna project of Z251. A555 is only found in Jewish members of this group. The parent group (S9294) has only people from Scotland and England. I have not yet found an indication of a time estimate of the MRCA of the S9294."

I think the above is a common misconception that I have been arguing against for years, with my view now well supported by recent NGS results. I can't explain why people think the common ancestor of A555 Jews was likely a convert to Judaism in the Middle Ages when it is obvious the time of divergence of that led to the ancestor of the Jewish group in L21 looks to be about 4000 years ago and there are no non-Jews with similar STRs or SNPs. If a recent conversion, I would think there would be some non-Jews with A555 or similar SNPs. Yfull lists the time of S9294 at 4000 years ago, and that is when the Jewish ancestral divergence likely occurred (albeit probably in Southern Europe).

As I have mentioned in other threads, this Jewish L21 branch most likely comes from a person who might have converted to Judaism in the Levant 3000 years ago after a sea voyage in the Mediterranean (Sherdan maybe, a la Adam Zertal's El-Ahwat conjecture?), and not in Western Europe 1000 ago, which is the TMRCA. One of these days, someone will uncover a Middle Eastern tester with L21 (would be the first ever as far as I know, and if ever there was someone in the Middle East with L21 it would be somebody related to the Ashkenazi Jews and not the Scotland or England branches of S9294). Just my two cents.

EDIT: Just to be accurate, the ancestral Jewish divergence happened after FGC11986 (not S9294).

Very very unlikely man...

Myth
03-27-2018, 03:48 AM
i am also zs227 and cohen

ffoucart
03-27-2018, 05:39 AM
Here is what it says about my paternal branch..

"This branch comes from Western-Europe. It is most likely a person was converted to Judaism in Iberia or Western-Europe. Some persons can be found in ftdna project of Z251. A555 is only found in Jewish members of this group. The parent group (S9294) has only people from Scotland and England. I have not yet found an indication of a time estimate of the MRCA of the S9294."

I think the above is a common misconception that I have been arguing against for years, with my view now well supported by recent NGS results. I can't explain why people think the common ancestor of A555 Jews was likely a convert to Judaism in the Middle Ages when it is obvious the time of divergence of that led to the ancestor of the Jewish group in L21 looks to be about 4000 years ago and there are no non-Jews with similar STRs or SNPs. If a recent conversion, I would think there would be some non-Jews with A555 or similar SNPs. Yfull lists the time of S9294 at 4000 years ago, and that is when the Jewish ancestral divergence likely occurred (albeit probably in Southern Europe).

As I have mentioned in other threads, this Jewish L21 branch most likely comes from a person who might have converted to Judaism in the Levant 3000 years ago after a sea voyage in the Mediterranean (Sherdan maybe, a la Adam Zertal's El-Ahwat conjecture?), and not in Western Europe 1000 ago, which is the TMRCA. One of these days, someone will uncover a Middle Eastern tester with L21 (would be the first ever as far as I know, and if ever there was someone in the Middle East with L21 it would be somebody related to the Ashkenazi Jews and not the Scotland or England branches of S9294). Just my two cents.

EDIT: Just to be accurate, the ancestral Jewish divergence happened after FGC11986 (not S9294).

L21 on the continent is undertested, and many Continental subclades are still unknown as a result. Obviously, the divergence between Continental and British subclades happened 4000 years ago.

It is extremely unlikely that L21 reached the Levant before the Roman Empire, and it is far more likely that Jewish subclades are the result of some Medieval conversions (attested by the way, even in Frankish elites).

You are right about the fact that L21 diffused by BBs, but it is important to note it is correlated to Northern Sea BBs, not to Southern BBs (to date).

Ethereal
04-10-2018, 12:46 PM
L21 on the continent is undertested, and many Continental subclades are still unknown as a result. Obviously, the divergence between Continental and British subclades happened 4000 years ago.

It is extremely unlikely that L21 reached the Levant before the Roman Empire, and it is far more likely that Jewish subclades are the result of some Medieval conversions (attested by the way, even in Frankish elites).

You are right about the fact that L21 diffused by BBs, but it is important to note it is correlated to Northern Sea BBs, not to Southern BBs (to date).

Agreed, it's just delusional thinking. The same goes for my Y DNA (I1 - it's the branch that contains the Polish and Romanian subbranches here: https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y12329/).

The tmrca seems to be 1350 ybp, but the fact that it's with Norwegians (and also within a branch (L338+) that is comparatively rare among Scandinavians and much more common among West Germanics) makes something seem odd to me. I mean, was the conversion to Judaism really directly from a Norwegian that left no other (tested) male descendants outside of Norway? The tmrca indicates this is before the Viking age...

If I had a hunch, I'd actually guess that this somehow has a parallel course to R1b-Ivanhoe, which is also a typically West Germanic branch, but seems to have actually come from conversion among the Sephardim.

Ethereal
04-10-2018, 12:59 PM
As always, any ideas are welcome. I get that my Y DNA I1 is a pretty fringe case though, so it's hardly of importance.

Eihwaz
04-11-2018, 03:23 AM
As always, any ideas are welcome. I get that my Y DNA I1 is a pretty fringe case though, so it's hardly of importance.

Sounds like it could've been introduced into the North Sea genepool in the Vendel Era or earlier. Check out these fits for Dutch_Ashkenazy averages, which are Ashkenazis with the absolute highest NW Euro admixture:

Hessen,26
Sephardi_Portugal_Belmonte,18
FR_Corsica,12.8
Belarus_Ashkenazy,10.4
Druzes,7.4
GR_Thrace,7.2
Dutch_Drenthe,3.4
Pontic_Greeks,3
Islas_Baleares,2.8
Nordrhein-Westfalen,2.2
Yemen_Jew,1.2
FR_Brittany,0.8
IT_Liguria,0.8
Samaritan,0.8
Finnish_Swede,0.6
Vepsians,0.6
Velamas,0.4
Australian_Aborigine,0.2
IT_Lazio,0.2
Mala,0.2
Mumbai_Jew,0.2
Nieder-Schlesien,0.2
RU_Pinega,0.2
Schleswig-Holstein,0.2
Tunisian_Berber_Chenini,0.2

Sounds like you have some distant ancestry from these Dutch Ashkenazis or a population similar to them. Maybe Lukasz could make a k36 report for you to figure that out?

Ethereal
04-11-2018, 02:18 PM
Sounds like it could've been introduced into the North Sea genepool in the Vendel Era or earlier. Check out these fits for Dutch_Ashkenazy averages, which are Ashkenazis with the absolute highest NW Euro admixture:

Hessen,26
Sephardi_Portugal_Belmonte,18
FR_Corsica,12.8
Belarus_Ashkenazy,10.4
Druzes,7.4
GR_Thrace,7.2
Dutch_Drenthe,3.4
Pontic_Greeks,3
Islas_Baleares,2.8
Nordrhein-Westfalen,2.2
Yemen_Jew,1.2
FR_Brittany,0.8
IT_Liguria,0.8
Samaritan,0.8
Finnish_Swede,0.6
Vepsians,0.6
Velamas,0.4
Australian_Aborigine,0.2
IT_Lazio,0.2
Mala,0.2
Mumbai_Jew,0.2
Nieder-Schlesien,0.2
RU_Pinega,0.2
Schleswig-Holstein,0.2
Tunisian_Berber_Chenini,0.2

Sounds like you have some distant ancestry from these Dutch Ashkenazis or a population similar to them. Maybe Lukasz could make a k36 report for you to figure that out?

I definitely don't, and my autosomal reports are entirely standard for Ashkenazim. The tmrca for Ashkenazi Y DNA I1 with the closest "Gentile" branch is 1350 ybp. I suspect there will be a closer one around 1000 ybp, maybe even more recent, that is untested, but who knows at this point.

Eihwaz
04-11-2018, 08:01 PM
I definitely don't, and my autosomal reports are entirely standard for Ashkenazim. The tmrca for Ashkenazi Y DNA I1 with the closest "Gentile" branch is 1350 ybp. I suspect there will be a closer one around 1000 ybp, maybe even more recent, that is untested, but who knows at this point.

My dad scores 100% "Ashkenazi" in 23andme (as well as a 31.92 in Eurogenes Jtest, which is higher than your score) but still shows heightened affinity towards the Dutch Ashkenazi average in k36. What are your k36 scores? That calculator has a shitload of components. Even if you just show a distant connection to that population, (which may have heightened I1 due to its Germanic affinity) I don't see why it's that far-fetched of an idea to have a paternal ancestor from the Germanic Iron Age.

Ethereal
04-11-2018, 11:41 PM
My dad scores 100% "Ashkenazi" in 23andme (as well as a 31.92 in Eurogenes Jtest, which is higher than your score) but still shows heightened affinity towards the Dutch Ashkenazi average in k36. What are your k36 scores? That calculator has a shitload of components. Even if you just show a distant connection to that population, (which may have heightened I1 due to its Germanic affinity) I don't see why it's that far-fetched of an idea to have a paternal ancestor from the Germanic Iron Age.

If I had a paternal ancestor from the Germanic Iron Age, which I see likely, it would not affect my K36 score in the slightest.