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Krefter
02-18-2016, 01:52 PM
Ian Logan has recently uploaded a fully-sequenced Phoenician mtDNA from Carthage.

An ancient phoenician mtDNA sequence on GenBank (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2016-01/1453900636)

The result is U5b2c1. Maybe he was La brana-1's sister's great1000 grandchild.

Odyss
02-18-2016, 02:00 PM
Lol , most people in Carthage were local Berbers , that's more like anciens Berber mtDNA.

Ignis90
02-18-2016, 03:04 PM
Lol , most people in Carthage were local Berbers , that's more like anciens Berber mtDNA.

Indeed, but at first sight, U5b2c1 doesn't look as local as U5b1b1 (most common U5 in modern Northwest Africa, among plenty others subclades) for instance. Of course, modern diversity sometimes doesn't give the whole picture of the ancient diversity in the same region.

What is sure though is that U5b2c1 is not Phoenician/Levantine. Could be local Berber/Carthaginian or through trades a recent Iberian arrival.

Odyss
02-18-2016, 03:12 PM
Yeah , the Carthaginians had plenty of colonies in coastal Iberia as well.

Xuipa
02-18-2016, 03:12 PM
Ian Logan has recently uploaded a fully-sequenced Phoenician mtDNA from Carthage.

An ancient phoenician mtDNA sequence on GenBank (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2016-01/1453900636)

The result is U5b2c1. Maybe he was La brana-1's sister's great1000 grandchild. YES! if this was poker , that mtdna should make this " read them and weep" moment !

Xuipa
02-18-2016, 03:32 PM
most of those in Iberia were created by refugees who couldn't get home after Joshua's long day.

Xuipa
02-19-2016, 12:07 AM
if anyone finds out the details of this individuals burial please post it here.
so far I can't find anything because there is no info here to search.
thanks !

Jean M
02-19-2016, 09:04 AM
if anyone finds out the details of this individuals burial please post it here.

According to Ian Logan's post, this sequence is to accompany the paper (unpublished so far):

Matisoo-Smith ,E.A., Gosling, A., Boocock, J., Kardailsky, O., Kurumilian, Y., Roudesli-Chebbi, S., Badre, L., Morel, J.-P., Sebai, L.L. and Zalloua, P.A, "A European mitochondrial haplotype identified in ancient Phoenician remains from Carthage, North Africa".

GailT
02-19-2016, 02:52 PM
The ancient Phoenician sample shares 3 of its extra mutations with two modern samples. A5351G, G6023A,and C9869T are also found in EF657625 (from Hernstadt, an unspecified "European" sample) and Z2478 from Marques et al., from central Portugal, So it seems to be a mtDNA lineage that originated in Europe. It differs by 4 mutations from those samples so the common maternal ancestor of the Phoenician and the two modern European samples could be approximately 3000 to 4000 years ago. (The estimate is uncertain because of the high variability in the mutation rate.)

edit: The Hernstadt "European" samples were from the UK and the US, so it is uncertain where specifically in Europe they originated, but western Europe is likely.

Lugus
02-19-2016, 03:28 PM
We still don't know the approximate time of this sample. Indeed there was a lot of contact between the Phoenicians and afterwards the Carthaginians and the Iberian Peninsula and if it wasn't for the Romans my mother tongue would be now a Semitic language. I can't wait to read the paper. It seems also the authors think the genotype is European.

Xuipa
02-19-2016, 11:06 PM
so was it Elissa(t) or one of her sons ? she the niece of Jezabel and she who founded Carthage . since Sea people buried their dead at sea, except royal kings and great men there is a chance.

or was that maybe mt dna from here ?
http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/10897 and a scene eerily similar too this record .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narmer_Palette

since Menes liked to lop off heads just like that Palette proves , it is quite close to this record , if there was just one more skull ! and if the magic time machines were wrong :P .
this could be this scene through the facts , but there is only 9 skulls instead of 10 ( as if no one could have found just one in 4000 years ) ;P . but it is so close I have to find out the mtdna's that are there .

Humanist
05-25-2016, 05:44 PM
Matisoo-Smith EA, Gosling AL, Boocock J, Kardailsky O, Kurumilian Y, Roudesli-Chebbi S, et al. (2016) A European Mitochondrial Haplotype Identified in Ancient Phoenician Remains from Carthage, North Africa. (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0155046) PLoS ONE 11(5): e0155046. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0155046


While Phoenician culture and trade networks had a significant impact on Western civilizations, we know little about the Phoenicians themselves. In 1994, a Punic burial crypt was discovered on Byrsa Hill, near the entry to the National Museum of Carthage in Tunisia. Inside this crypt were the remains of a young man along with a range of burial goods, all dating to the late 6th century BCE. Here we describe the complete mitochondrial genome recovered from the Young Man of Byrsa and identify that he carried a rare European haplogroup, likely linking his maternal ancestry to Phoenician influenced locations somewhere on the North Mediterranean coast, the islands of the Mediterranean or the Iberian Peninsula. This result not only provides the first direct ancient DNA evidence of a Phoenician individual but the earliest evidence of a European mitochondrial haplogroup, U5b2c1, in North Africa.

crossover
05-27-2016, 08:07 PM
why didn't they get autosomol and y-dna?

rozenfeld
05-27-2016, 08:18 PM
why didn't they get autosomol and y-dna?

First, the sample is from area with hot climate, so DNA is more degraded compared to samples from Central Europe. Second, this lab(University of Otago, New Zealand) may not have enough experience, equipment or funding to do full genome.

Saetro
05-28-2016, 02:27 AM
Agree with Rozenfeld that DNA degradation is likely.
There are many more copies of mtDNA in us, so the mere numbers present tend towards more mtDNA surviving and being extracted. Whatever the relative tendency towards degradation, mtDNA survives better.
Hence its use for identifying now, soldiers buried hurriedly during WWI without adequate other ID. Their yDNA has degraded.

Some academic researchers test one aspect at a time, so they release early results first.
Others maximise focus on each aspect by publishing separate papers on each aspect.
This also helps them maximise the number of papers published, which tends to be a KPI.
(Which makes it more likely that they get funding for more such work - for us to read.)

Ignis90
05-28-2016, 10:37 AM
First, the sample is from area with hot climate, so DNA is more degraded compared to samples from Central Europe. Second, this lab(University of Otago, New Zealand) may not have enough experience, equipment or funding to do full genome.

It's not particularly hotter than Anatolia, Armenia or Iberia which are regions which gave autosomal and y-dna haplogroups. When only mtdna is retrieved, it's usually because they don't have the funding or the equipment as you said, or because they have this old way of doing things, which is to focus on mtdna only (and is technically easier to do).

There is also ancient (not so ancient) Canarian y-dna retrieved from a place with a more or less similar climate.

So climate plays a role, yes, but I don't think it's always the reason.

ffoucart
05-28-2016, 12:09 PM
Here, given what we could read in French speaking newspapers, could be a problem of founding. The emphasis is put to the importance of Phenicians for European Civilzation, and the lack of knowledge we have about them. Very much like: I need money to go further into their DNA.

Chief
05-29-2016, 01:53 AM
Probably the descendant of some European slave.

Ignis90
05-29-2016, 05:58 PM
^
A slave with a proper burial? Very unlikely. With goods in the burial? Certainly not.

J Man
05-30-2016, 02:58 AM
^
A slave with a proper burial? Very unlikely. With goods in the burial? Certainly not.

He said a ''descendant'' of some European slave. The slave ancestress could be quite far back in time which would not matter so much for the young man's status if his slave ancestress existed many hundreds of years before he was born. Who knows though really? This is all just pure speculation.

Odyss
05-30-2016, 08:47 AM
U5bc2 is rare even in Europe. So it doesn't really mean it was not present in NW Africa during the antiquity ( it' s probably still present there but very rare). This said , the closest matches are Portuguese so the Iberian origin is fairly likely. But let's not forget HG lineages in Iberia and Northern Africa are undishtinguable from each other with similar matches and several studies have mentionned it.