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Passa
02-19-2016, 07:41 PM
Here it is - https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zr7itbDHGgvM.kHmbTTiPAdtQ

It will be updated as new samples get published.

Here's a table with info on samples - 7859

kingjohn
02-19-2016, 09:13 PM
could't the erding sample be e-v13 ?
up untill this day there is 7% e-v13 in bavaria
could be roman soldiers left behaind or earlier migration to southern germany .
regards
adam

Passa
02-25-2016, 02:24 PM
The map has been updated with the new Muslim samples from early medieval France. The table also has been updated: 7971

Ignis90
02-25-2016, 10:23 PM
What about the 700-years-old Bohemian unusual remains (http://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/complex-analysis-of-700yearold-skeletal-remains-found-in-an-unusualgravecase-report-2332-0915-1000138.pdf)? He's predicted Y-chromosome haplogroup E1b1b (and mtdna H).

Passa
02-25-2016, 10:47 PM
What about the 700-years-old Bohemian unusual remains (http://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/complex-analysis-of-700yearold-skeletal-remains-found-in-an-unusualgravecase-report-2332-0915-1000138.pdf)? He's predicted Y-chromosome haplogroup E1b1b (and mtdna H).

Totally unaware of this, thanks! I will update the map tomorrow.

Ignis90
02-25-2016, 10:58 PM
Totally unaware of this, thanks! I will update the map tomorrow.

You're welcome.
Not a very important paper but quite extensive work (including facial reconstruction).

Hilarious jewish vampire hypotheses too, one can at least make its own conclusions based on the reconstruction. :P

Gravetto-Danubian
02-25-2016, 11:17 PM
What about the 700-years-old Bohemian unusual remains (http://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/complex-analysis-of-700yearold-skeletal-remains-found-in-an-unusualgravecase-report-2332-0915-1000138.pdf)? He's predicted Y-chromosome haplogroup E1b1b (and mtdna H).

It is interesting that hg E- and other groups- come up regularly in pre-modern European samples. Whilst this might be due to sample bias, they might have been genuinely more prevalent in Europe as late as the early Middle Ages. Maybe the Black Death played some part in modifying the final genetic landscape in modern Europe ? I know at least a couple of mtDNA studies showed modern Europe is less diverse than late antiquity

Passa
02-26-2016, 01:26 PM
These are Czech guy's closest matches.

7976

He was most likely L540+ (this is a V13 sub-clade). Most matches are Central/East Euro. There are also some British matches, but probably this is due to testing bias. The verdict is: this guy was indigenous to Central Europe, not a Jewish or vampire immigrant :P

I have updated the map and the table with this information. 7977. I am confident that we'll be seeing a new update when Natufian results are out.

P.S. If you notice a study reporting ancient E samples not contained in the map/table, please notify me by posting in this thread. Thanks.

Jean M
02-26-2016, 06:42 PM
What about the 700-years-old Bohemian unusual remains (http://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/complex-analysis-of-700yearold-skeletal-remains-found-in-an-unusualgravecase-report-2332-0915-1000138.pdf)? He's predicted Y-chromosome haplogroup E1b1b (and mtdna H).

Have added this to my online table, but have pointed out that this Y-DNA haplogroup was only predicted on 14 STRs.

Jean M
02-26-2016, 06:46 PM
Hilarious jewish vampire hypotheses too...

Not actually Jewish vampire, but Jewish vs vampire. I was staggered to find the authors taking the vampire concept seriously, and only ruling it out in this case because they found human DNA in human remains. :biggrin1:

Tomenable
03-02-2016, 12:38 PM
the authors taking the vampire concept seriously, and only ruling it out in this case because they found human DNA in human remains.

This reminds me of a book "Daily life of gnomes in the Antiquity and in the Middle Ages. An archaeological study": :biggrin1:

http://www.amazon.com/Zycie-codzienne-krasnoludkow-starozytnosci-wie/dp/8362584238

This book is actually a scientific joke (at least I hope so). :)

BTW - if vampires are undead forms of humans (as depicted in modern fiction), then they should have human DNA, why not?

So human DNA does not even rule out the vampire hypothesis... :biggrin1: However, there are other problems about them:


In 2006, a physics professor at the University of Central Florida wrote a paper arguing that it is mathematically impossible for vampires to exist, based on geometric progression. According to the paper, if the first vampire had appeared on 1 January 1600, and it fed once a month (which is less often than what is depicted in films and folklore), and every victim turned into a vampire, then within two and a half years the entire human population of the time would have become vampires.[103] The paper made no attempt to address the credibility of the assumption that every vampire victim would turn into a vampire.

Halgurd
03-27-2016, 09:17 PM
Thank you for the map :)

Halgurd
03-30-2016, 09:35 PM
I am confident that we'll be seeing a new update when Natufian results are out.

Do you know when the results will come?

Passa
03-31-2016, 04:48 AM
Do you know when the results will come?

No, unfortunately.

ADW_1981
03-31-2016, 05:06 AM
It is interesting that hg E- and other groups- come up regularly in pre-modern European samples. Whilst this might be due to sample bias, they might have been genuinely more prevalent in Europe as late as the early Middle Ages. Maybe the Black Death played some part in modifying the final genetic landscape in modern Europe ? I know at least a couple of mtDNA studies showed modern Europe is less diverse than late antiquity

Wasn't there a LBK related culture that came up within the last 5 months that predicted 2 males as E1b1b? (probably V13) They were malnourished, and I believe the paper was in German and only tested STRs. Should be floating around one of these aDNA threads.

Passa
04-16-2016, 02:12 PM
https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/handle/1887/28495

Individual V2127 (1341-1421 AD) from Oldenzaal (Netherlands) has a 100% probability of being E1b1b according to Whit Athey's predictor. I am therefore updating the map and table to include this individual.

8890

Passa
06-17-2016, 12:40 PM
Doc and map updated with the new Natufian and PPNB Levantine samples.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI

9827

J Man
06-17-2016, 06:00 PM
Doc and map updated with the new Natufian and PPNB Levantine samples.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI

9827

I always had a strong feeling that the Natufians would have a lot of E1b1b present among them. It is nice to see this confirmed now. :)

Arame
06-21-2016, 09:10 AM
So that E-M84 in BA Armenia was not a coincidence. E-Z830 found in Natufians and Levant is the ancestor of E-M84.

Thanks for the map.

kingjohn
06-26-2016, 08:17 AM
passa haplogroup
D was finally found thank god
we wait for so long
to bad it is not that ancient .....:\
any your map is great
regards
adam

kingjohn
06-28-2016, 07:19 PM
how do we know that the erding{germany} samples
are :E-v22 and E-m34 ???:\
str is not enough you need snp test.
str can predict well if it 37-67 markers if it much lower than it is a problem.
regards
adam

kingjohn
07-01-2016, 10:57 PM
i wonder which military unit were send
to this area from dienekes forum : http://dienekes.blogspot.co.il/2012/07/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-from-late.html
and a qoate : The theory of a buried family clan had to be dismissed as well, or rather, be extended to the scenario of several families being buried there with their servants. The results obtained fit the third presumption best, namely that the buried individuals were the members of a military unit interred with their families.
there was a lebanese unit{ probable source for e-v22 and e-m34 among the roman period males found} but it was sent to mainz germany
i will look on the net see what i can find
regards
adam

p.s they used this calculator http://members.bex.net/jtcullen515/haplotest.htm to came to conclusion it is e-v22 and e-m34
with whits calculator the {2 e1b1b1} samples are both e-m78* instead

Passa
09-02-2016, 10:11 PM
This thesis (https://era.library.ualberta.ca/files/wm117r51m/Moussa_Nour_M_201509_PhD.pdf) shows three individuals as being positive to SNP L914.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L914/

Though someone doubts that those individuals really are E. Should I add these samples to the table and map?

kingjohn
12-03-2016, 04:02 PM
dear passa,
you should add the e samples to yor map
of el hiero canary islands
1015–1210 AD{ have to be aboriginals } ;)
they found e-m81 and e-m33 in addition to r1b
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440316301686
regards
adam

Passa
12-03-2016, 07:35 PM
dear passa,
you should add the e samples to yor map
of el hiero canary islands
1015–1210 AD{ have to be aboriginals } ;)
they found e-m81 and e-m33 in addition to r1b
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440316301686
regards
adam

Updated.

John Doe
12-03-2016, 07:56 PM
Kinda crazy to think that the Natufian from that cave in Northern Israel might be a long lost relative of mine. :-P

evon
12-03-2016, 08:12 PM
My family has two DNA matches with YDNA E2 (M75), But they seem absent from the ancient samples..Anybody got any info on E2?

Agamemnon
12-03-2016, 08:40 PM
Kinda crazy to think that the Natufian from that cave in Northern Israel might be a long lost relative of mine. :-P

One of them might even be your direct paternal ancestor, how cool would that be? :lol:

Passa
12-04-2016, 09:59 AM
My family has two DNA matches with YDNA E2 (M75), But they seem absent from the ancient samples..Anybody got any info on E2?

We need more aDNA from Sub-Saharan Africa (especially the Nilotic region) to have at least a minor chance of detecting it among the samples.

Missouri1455
12-10-2016, 11:43 PM
Here it is - https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zr7itbDHGgvM.kHmbTTiPAdtQ

It will be updated as new samples get published.

Here's a table with info on samples - 7859

I believe the ancient arabs belonged to this haplogroup; especially since ethiopia geographically speaking is very close to yemen; i would assume some people migrated by sea to yemen; only time will let us know though.

Missouri1455
12-13-2016, 01:17 AM
I apologize for the duplicate comment just wanted to share this information

Found an interesting link to this topic

http://arabian-archaeology.com/arch5neolithic.htm


Southern Arabia has archaeological links to the Horn of Africa/East Africa stretching back to the Lower Paleolithic - about 1.5 my BP. Modern humans may have entered the region as early as 75,000-50,000 years ago. Traditionally, the Paleolithic is considered to end by 10,000 years ago or the end of the Ice Age although detailed work on this transitional period to the early Holocene has yet to be worked out.

During 75,000-50,000, what haplogroups existed during that period? if were to assume what article is saying is very accurate; what haplogroups would these people fall under?

Usually when it comes to Arabia its believed either the migrants came from north or crossed by the sea; i believe historically both migrations took place especially with the close geographic distance it shares with africa.

Thank you in advance

kingjohn
12-13-2016, 04:52 PM
only ancient dna can prove that
but yes from what i understand j{including j1 came from the north }
after we have the chg sample and also the EHG dude .... :)
it could be that haplogroup e was in arabia at some point along with
the basal euroasian component
i ask davidski who knows a lot and at his basal rich k7 test
eritreans and ethiopians score basal rich but only noise leve of ancint north euroasian and the villbruna related components
best regards
adam

raspberry
12-13-2016, 09:00 PM
To wich haplogroups did the basal euroasian people belong?

Missouri1455
12-13-2016, 11:26 PM
only ancient dna can prove that
but yes from what i understand j{including j1 came from the north }
after we have the chg sample and also the EHG dude .... :)
it could be that haplogroup e was in arabia at some point along with
the basal euroasian component
i ask davidski who knows a lot and at his basal rich k7 test
eritreans and ethiopians score basal rich but only noise leve of ancint north euroasian and the villbruna related components
best regards
adam

You know latley in Arabia there have been an increase in people who belong to the E1b1b haplogroups which is defying the odds that J is the only halogroup that have existed there in modern times; and usually these carriers belong to known tribes which makes one assume that E carriers have existed all along in Arabia and even preceded the J carriers by thousands of years. I believe what resulted in their decrease was the ever increasing tribal warfares, famines, migrations, etc.

I believe this resulted a shift in favour of the j1 and j2 haplogroups in the region. The E1b1b1 haplogroup is also believed to be the haplogroup of the ancient arabians by the experts from the region itself.

This case needs to be studied thoroughly though; thankfully the number of people that participate in these projects from arabia is increasing rapidly which is a good sign.

kingjohn
12-14-2016, 04:08 PM
we know now that E HAD ANCIENT PRESENCE IN THE LEVANT {NATUFIANS ,}
SO EVERYTHING IS POSIBLE :)
BEST REGARDS
ADAM

Missouri1455
12-14-2016, 04:53 PM
we know now that E HAD ANCIENT PRESENCE IN THE LEVANT {NATUFIANS ,}
SO EVERYTHING IS POSIBLE :)
BEST REGARDS
ADAM

That best explanation that can be given with Ancient Arabians who belong to E1b1b1 is they either belonged to E1b1b1 that came from the north(Levant) or the E1b1b1 that came directly from East Africa and both cases seem plausible; in addition E haplogroup carriers make up a sizable minority in the Levant which means this haplogroup(E) definitely had an ancient presence there.

kingjohn
12-14-2016, 05:05 PM
agree with you:D
could be 2 routs :
1}from levant down to arabia
2}from east africa{ethiopia , eritrea area directly to southern arabia}
it is hard to know % of haplogroups in ancient times
example {e-m123 is only 4% in armenia nowdays who would think including me that 2 samples from bronze age armenia will show up }:\
time will tell
regards
adam

Passa
05-10-2017, 05:26 PM
Map updated with Croatian Cardial Neolithic and Ukrainian Trypillian Neolithic samples from Mathieson et al. (2017).

Bane
05-12-2017, 11:51 AM
Great map Passa.

Btw I'd say it is disputable whether Neolithic Catalonian sample is E-V13. All known E-L618(xV13) haplotypes match that sample to the same extent as E-V13 haplotypes do.
I want to say in my opinion it makes more sense to label the sample E-L618 (not E-V13 as it is now).

Megalophias
05-12-2017, 12:01 PM
It's positive for the V13 SNP.

Trojet
05-12-2017, 12:06 PM
It's positive for the V13 SNP.

No, Bane is right. AFAIK, the Neolithic Catalonian sample was predicted as V13 based only on a limited amount of STRs. No confirmation he was V13, but most most definitely E-L618 (V13?).

MfA
05-12-2017, 12:08 PM
As Megalophias said it's SNP tested for V13



STR haplotype, substract 1 from GATA-H4 for FTDNA comparison.

https://abload.de/img/v13_mfa_w5snr.png

His closest matches
https://abload.de/img/iberian_v13_9jscm.png

Maybe a Big Y fundraising is due for N13152 Savarino

Trojet
05-12-2017, 12:15 PM
As Megalophias said it's SNP tested for V13

Interesting. So he was SNP tested V13+. Thanks for sharing, as I thought it was only an STR prediction.

Bane
05-12-2017, 12:19 PM
Thanks for the info!

Passa
05-14-2017, 03:17 PM
Map updated with the new Reihengraeber sample from Sindelsdorf (predicted E1b1b, likelihood: 61.3%).

Source: Rott, Andreas (2017): Phänomene der frühmittelalterlichen Reihengräberzeit aus molekularbiologischer Sicht. Dissertation, LMU München: Faculty of Biology

https://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/20640/

Passa
05-30-2017, 04:01 PM
Map updated with the new Ptolemaic Egyptian sample.

Passa
06-30-2017, 06:45 PM
Map updated with the Neolithic Anatolian sample from Barcın Höyük.

Source: https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de/theses/volltexte/2017/100001355/pdf/100001355.pdf

I also created several levels for my map to better visualize the chronological succession of samples. These levels are: Epipaleolithic/Mesolithic, Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age, Iron Age, Antiquity, Medieval. Along with the levels' names, I also inserted time periods (their association with the archaeological periods is not meant to be precise, given the extreme variability with regards to the start and the end of, for example, the Neolithic in various regions).

Passa
09-22-2017, 11:52 AM
Added I0595 from Kenya and IAM.4, IAM.5 from Morocco.

Passa
10-27-2017, 02:58 PM
Added gun002, gun011, gun012 from Tenerife's late Guanche era (source: http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)31257-5)

Passa
02-21-2018, 11:37 AM
Added CL38, SZ18 from Longobard-era Northern Italy and Hungary, respectively (source: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/02/20/268250.figures-only).
Added II/53 from medieval Hungary (source: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7).

kingjohn
02-21-2018, 03:42 PM
Added CL38, SZ18 from Longobard-era Northern Italy and Hungary, respectively (source: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/02/20/268250.figures-only).
Added II/53 from medieval Hungary (source: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7).

thanks for all your great work
very informative map
kudos.... :)
the only thing that might be a mistake in your map is that you put one barcin hoyuc individual as e-m35
as far as i know none of barcin individual was E so if you can take him out would be great .....
other than that amazing work :)

Passa
02-21-2018, 07:12 PM
the only thing that might be a mistake in your map is that you put one barcin hoyuc individual as e-m35
as far as i know none of barcin individual was E so if you can take him out would be great .

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=254078&viewfull=1#post254078

kingjohn
02-21-2018, 07:44 PM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=254078&viewfull=1#post254078

correct don't know why jeanm don't put it in her neolithic table : :\

Table 65: Informative derived alleles from samples from Anatolia, samples without identifying derived
SNPs positions were excluded. Note that the haplogroup was confirmed by higher number of independent
derived markers only for Bar31.
Sample name Position SNP Haplogroup Coverage Mutation
Akt20 16638804 M438 I2 19 A->G
Bar11 21741703 M35.1 E1b1b1 4 G->C
Bar31
17174741 L156 G2 2 A->T
23244026 P15 G2a 4 C->T
14692227 L32 G2a2b 6 T->C

p.s
also one of the vinca individuals was mtdna h3h in 4500 bc as i belong to h3 also
i find it cool
jean m need to see this paper .......
i will send it to her

Bane
03-03-2018, 05:00 PM
Hi Passa,
you may be interested in this information: I3151 from the Verteba Cave (http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=4425.msg41737#msg41737)

Passa
03-09-2018, 08:19 PM
Hi Passa,
you may be interested in this information: I3151 from the Verteba Cave (http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=4425.msg41737#msg41737)

This sample is already on my map.

____________________________

Added sample Ma911 (Y-DNA D) from the Hoabinhian culture, Malaysia (source: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/08/278374).

Bane
03-09-2018, 08:37 PM
This sample is already on my map.

Indeed it is. But, on your map it is described as E-M96 and Steve found it to be positive for S14609 which is M78 equivalent. I thought maybe you would want to have this update.

kingjohn
03-09-2018, 11:49 PM
This sample is already on my map.

____________________________

Added sample Ma911 (Y-DNA D) from the Hoabinhian culture, Malaysia (source: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/08/278374).

finally ancient D YES............................... B)

p.s
there is also a jomon remain from japanese island who carry D 1500BC
but source japanese :(

Passa
03-10-2018, 02:07 PM
there is also a jomon remain from japanese island who carry D 1500BC
but source japanese :(

Thanks for the info. Added the Jomon individual (source: http://anthrop-meeting.sakura.ne.jp/70/pdf/ittupan_proceeding%20.pdf [C-6]).

Passa
03-15-2018, 08:46 PM
Added Iberomaurusian samples from Taforalt (source: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2018/03/14/science.aar8380).

rafc
03-16-2018, 08:31 AM
Great work as always, Passa!

jof2311
03-19-2018, 07:06 PM
Interesting Map , Passa what do you think about the presence of E-m78 so early in Maghreb around 14000 ybp ?

Rethel
03-19-2018, 07:14 PM
A propos, does have someone actual data about main subclades of E by country.
I was counting lastly this hg, but unfortunatly only main E, what is not sufficient.

At least it would be nice to have some pelasgian, bantu+, berber,
egyptian, cushitic, levantian and E2 separated data to work with.

Passa
05-13-2018, 10:54 AM
Added DA19 (Saka) and DA65 (Tian Shan Hun) samples from https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0094-2.

Baws
05-15-2018, 03:19 AM
Where did you get the E-M35 from Barcın Höyük (Neolithic)? What is the source?

Pribislav
05-15-2018, 08:45 AM
Where did you get the E-M35 from Barcın Höyük (Neolithic)? What is the source?

https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de/theses/volltexte/2017/100001355/pdf/100001355.pdf

page 121

kingjohn
05-15-2018, 04:01 PM
https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de/theses/volltexte/2017/100001355/pdf/100001355.pdf

page 121

wish we knew which branch e-v68
e-z830 ????:\
probably was e-v68 as the ancient sample is close geographically to the balkan

Rethel
05-18-2018, 06:39 PM
A propos, does have someone actual data about main subclades of E by country.
I was counting lastly this hg, but unfortunatly only main E, what is not sufficient.

At least it would be nice to have some pelasgian, bantu+, berber,
egyptian, cushitic, levantian and E2 separated data to work with.

For example, circa 57.22% of all E is E1b1a.
87.84% if it lives in Africa containing 45.36%
of the population of the continent, being also
8.59% of the whole global human population.
So, Bantuids are the strongest among E-men :beerchug:

Of course it should be viewed as +/-.

Baws
05-18-2018, 07:36 PM
So, what do u guys think? Should Y-DNA E be linked with Basal Eurasians?

Passa
08-20-2018, 02:54 PM
Added sample I1171, a Chalcolithic Levantine individual. Source (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05649-9#Sec22).

Passa
10-16-2018, 04:25 PM
Added sample scy197, a Scythian individual from Moldova. Source (http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat4457) (wrongly reported as R1b, shown to be E-CTS1273 by YFull (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bnVJujBs_bQu_dqSVi_dSXUuz9gNIYFX_XlqRrz92mo/htmlview)).

Passa
11-03-2018, 01:24 PM
Added samples SJN001, SJN002, SJN003 from Mexico City (Afro-Mexicans). Source (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327816852_The_genetic_makeup_of_enslaved_Africans_ from_early_Colonial_Mexico_City).

Lupriac
11-08-2018, 02:22 PM
Does it matter if it is European or not ..it Founding line is From a Black Man ...Who is a common Ancestor of All this Subgroups and to whom 92% of all men in The African continent call a common Ancestor Daddy Abraham :-)) A fact that can't be changed by no level of Hate and prejudice of a foolish mind.

Applying modern-day racial classification on a 65,000 years old haplogroup E, not to mention the "Negroid" or "Black" morphology dates back only to the Holocene.

(Brief side note: If Abraham ever existed, then he'd probably be an Akkadian/Levantine herder).

Moderator
11-08-2018, 07:51 PM
This thread is now open after being cleaned up. This is a general warning to please read our Terms of Service before posting again. The admin team are monitoring this thread.

Passa
03-17-2019, 12:41 PM
Added Iberian samples from Olalde et al. (2019) (http://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230).

Passa
04-04-2019, 04:14 PM
Added samples from medieval Hungary. Source (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/597997v1.supplementary-material?fbclid=IwAR2EuYEFxjkilABKuUJ53qUKL4nYfQGn faB9tNMrLPuSOaa7mrQEFkO2DUc).

Farroukh
04-07-2019, 05:06 PM
Please also add one more sample from this paper:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

Farroukh
04-07-2019, 05:06 PM
Please also add one more sample from this paper:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

Passa
04-19-2019, 08:19 PM
Added sample SI-38 from medieval Lebanon. Source (https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(19)30111-9).

digital_noise
04-19-2019, 10:17 PM
Is the (dead) attachment in the first post that has info on the samples still around?

dany198124
04-24-2019, 03:46 PM
Great thread

Uvieu
04-27-2019, 12:51 PM
A very interesting thread. Congratulations.
Does anyone in the group have info on ancient remains tests on E-V65 / E1b1b1a4?

Passa
05-31-2019, 05:19 PM
Map updated with samples from https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2019/05/29/science.aaw6275.

VytautusofAukstaitija
05-31-2019, 06:11 PM
The early I8874 E-V32 sample from Cole's Burial is actually misplaced. It is located close to Lake Elmenteita, and directly north of Kikopey, in Kariandusi.

Looks great seeing all these pre-historic and historic E males in northern SE Africa nonetheless, but the density of samples, from the early Pastoral Neolithic duo, to the Bantu and Pastoral Iron Age all in the Kenyan-Tanzanian Rift inter-lakes region shows this area to have long functioned as a demographic sink in northern SE Africa, which makes sense of its current ethno-linguistic diversity.

Passa
07-12-2019, 11:18 AM
Eastern Scythian individual from Bashkortostan added to the map. Source (https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)30712-2).

Passa
07-18-2019, 11:45 AM
Map updated with two Scandinavian samples from the Viking Age. Source (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1).

Dorkymon
08-20-2019, 03:45 PM
Here it is - https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zr7itbDHGgvM.kHmbTTiPAdtQ

It will be updated as new samples get published.

Here's a table with info on samples - 7859

Just saw this map and thought I'd mention that Glinoe (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hlinaia,_Slobozia,_Transnistria) sits on the other end of Moldova.

"The Glinoe site is located in the Slobodzeya district, in the southeastern part of Moldova(46.6684°N, 29.8001°E). It consists of 114 Scythian barrows dated from the end of the 4thcentury BCE to the 2nd century BCE."

Farroukh
08-21-2019, 03:27 AM
Please, add these samples from India:

Ancient DNA from the skeletons of Roopkund Lake reveals Mediterranean migrants in India

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-11357-9

Passa
08-21-2019, 10:33 AM
Please, add these samples from India:

Ancient DNA from the skeletons of Roopkund Lake reveals Mediterranean migrants in India

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-11357-9

I added the individual in the "Indian cluster" only, because the other one doesn't qualify as "ancient".

DeVerbno
08-21-2019, 01:44 PM
I can not find on the map the result from the tomb of Bela III from this study
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

And two Longobards
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6134036/#!po=0.724638

Passa
08-21-2019, 06:14 PM
I can not find on the map the result from the tomb of Bela III from this study
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

And two Longobards
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6134036/#!po=0.724638

All of them are on the map. Look carefully

Passa
08-24-2019, 12:02 PM
Map updated with five Oranian infants from Taforalt. Source (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248418303750).

Passa
11-07-2019, 08:11 PM
Samples from this paper (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708) on ancient Italic genomes are now on the map.

Farroukh
12-15-2019, 10:46 AM
S. V. Sirotin, D. S. Bogachuk, A. A. Voloshinov, A. A. Tarasova, H. H. Mustafin, I. E. Alborova. Two Unusual Graves of the Late Medieval Period from the Bakhchisaray District of the Republic of Crimea (p. 293) (https://www.archaeolog.ru/media/ksia/ksia-256-redu.pdf)
14-15th century
SNP-results:
#6 - E1b1b1(M35.1)
#22 - E1b1b1b2a1a(CTS4483) (=M84)

https://a.radikal.ru/a13/1912/cd/bf3086adf474.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

Nevgen prediction (GATA H4 was normalized):

#6 is definite E-V13
#22 is definite E-Y5427 (=>E-Y14899)

DeVerbno
02-25-2020, 04:35 PM
Viceroy, leader of the Scandinavian-Slavic squad (Krivichs, Kryvichs, Kryvičý) of a settlement in Bolshevo (tumulus (kurgan) fields 11-12 century), where there was a transit point on Klyazma

https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/rezultaty-testirovaniya-gaplogruppy-y-dnk-dlya-srednevekovogo-slavyanskogo-zahoroneniya-xii-v-v-okrestnostyah-poselka-zagoryanskiy-na

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339007981_TEST_RESULTS_OF_Y-DNA_HAPLOGROUP_FOR_THE_MEDIEVAL_SLAVIC_BURIAL_OF_T HE_12TH_CENTURY_NEAR_ZAGORYANSKY_SETTLEMENT_ON_THE _UPPER_KLYAZMA_MOSCOW_REGION

Passa
02-25-2020, 08:49 PM
S. V. Sirotin, D. S. Bogachuk, A. A. Voloshinov, A. A. Tarasova, H. H. Mustafin, I. E. Alborova. Two Unusual Graves of the Late Medieval Period from the Bakhchisaray District of the Republic of Crimea (p. 293) (https://www.archaeolog.ru/media/ksia/ksia-256-redu.pdf)
14-15th century
SNP-results:
#6 - E1b1b1(M35.1)
#22 - E1b1b1b2a1a(CTS4483) (=M84)

https://a.radikal.ru/a13/1912/cd/bf3086adf474.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

Nevgen prediction (GATA H4 was normalized):

#6 is definite E-V13
#22 is definite E-Y5427 (=>E-Y14899)




Viceroy, leader of the Scandinavian-Slavic squad (Krivichs, Kryvichs, Kryvičý) of a settlement in Bolshevo (tumulus (kurgan) fields 11-12 century), where there was a transit point on Klyazma

https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/rezultaty-testirovaniya-gaplogruppy-y-dnk-dlya-srednevekovogo-slavyanskogo-zahoroneniya-xii-v-v-okrestnostyah-poselka-zagoryanskiy-na

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339007981_TEST_RESULTS_OF_Y-DNA_HAPLOGROUP_FOR_THE_MEDIEVAL_SLAVIC_BURIAL_OF_T HE_12TH_CENTURY_NEAR_ZAGORYANSKY_SETTLEMENT_ON_THE _UPPER_KLYAZMA_MOSCOW_REGION

All of the samples mentioned here have been added to the map. Thank you.

Johane Derite
02-25-2020, 09:17 PM
All of the samples mentioned here have been added to the map. Thank you.

Also add this guy:

1. Yaroslav Osmomysl

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaroslav_Osmomysl

http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=10710.0

digital_noise
02-25-2020, 09:22 PM
Looking at the map clearly shows how vacant the supposed birthplace of E-V13 is, namely the Balkans. Its shocking really. Same with Southern Italy.

Johane Derite
02-25-2020, 11:26 PM
Looking at the map clearly shows how vacant the supposed birthplace of E-V13 is, namely the Balkans. Its shocking really. Same with Southern Italy.

There is not one single ancient Dna sample from Albania or Kosova yet, and the balkans is undertested anyway. The rumours of the Moesia antiquity results are that they are 30% Ev13

digital_noise
02-25-2020, 11:52 PM
There is not one single ancient Dna sample from Albania or Kosova yet, and the balkans is undertested anyway. The rumours of the Moesia antiquity results are that they are 30% Ev13

is this a paper currently underway? I'm seriously hungry for some activity in the barren E-V13 world

Johane Derite
02-26-2020, 12:09 AM
is this a paper currently underway? I'm seriously hungry for some activity in the barren E-V13 world

Yes:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18885-A-theory-about-the-origin-of-E-V13&p=641100&viewfull=1#post641100

DeVerbno
02-26-2020, 04:20 AM
All of the samples mentioned here have been added to the map. Thank you.

Thank you!
The exact coordinates of "Bolshevsky-1"
http://www.geokorolev.ru/sprav3/object_kultura_archaeology_0.html

Passa
02-26-2020, 09:36 PM
Also add this guy:

1. Yaroslav Osmomysl

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaroslav_Osmomysl

http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=10710.0

Added. Thanks again.

Passa
02-28-2020, 08:45 PM
Ancient Sardinian samples from this (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6) study and this (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-020-1102-0) one have been added.

Johane Derite
03-01-2020, 07:09 PM
A visualization of some notable EV13s that are ancient and more recent:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESC6qPJXkAML5c4?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Farroukh
03-04-2020, 04:15 PM
Ekaterina Yatsishina's presentation (22:49) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOOVE32-nXI) (in Russian) about DNA analysis of Egyptian mummies from the Pushkin Museum (https://pushkinmuseum.art/exposition_collection/collections/archeology/index.php?lang=en&combi_coll_struct=1#objects).

One of them was the bearer of E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a (equal to E-Y32576 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y32576/))

But who was him? The museum exhibits the sarcophagi of Shepsi-pu-Min, Mahu, Khor-Aha... Who among them was E-Y32576?

Passa
03-26-2020, 04:05 PM
Added new Jomon Y-DNA D samples from this study (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.25.004606v1).
Added new Xiongnu and Mongol samples from this study (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.25.008078v1).

Farroukh
04-08-2020, 08:36 PM
All DE-M145 aDNA samples list (pp.2-3):

https://b.radikal.ru/b24/2004/66/af74f383b253t.jpg (https://b.radikal.ru/b24/2004/66/af74f383b253.jpg)

https://a.radikal.ru/a31/2004/64/859a439338b1t.jpg (https://a.radikal.ru/a31/2004/64/859a439338b1.jpg)

https://indo-european.eu/all-ancient-dna.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1pvaFgd-jNvOZ27b3d-Nsr0H_x3a2S-F4m4WXSiSPppDYdVAwvJBroXsI

Farroukh
04-08-2020, 09:07 PM
What about the 700-years-old Bohemian unusual remains (http://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/complex-analysis-of-700yearold-skeletal-remains-found-in-an-unusualgravecase-report-2332-0915-1000138.pdf)? He's predicted Y-chromosome haplogroup E1b1b (and mtdna H).

Today this guy is highly likely (>90%) predicted as E-V65 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-V65/)

Bane
04-09-2020, 06:31 AM
All DE-M145 aDNA samples list (pp.2-3):https://indo-european.eu/all-ancient-dna.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1pvaFgd-jNvOZ27b3d-Nsr0H_x3a2S-F4m4WXSiSPppDYdVAwvJBroXsI

Interesting list!
However, there is something either unclear or plainly wrong about the I3151 sample from Verteba cave. Namely, this sample has L796 and M5115 listed as positive SNPs which are both on the E-M35 level.
Hence it is unclear why this sample has E-Z830 assigned as its terminal haplogroup?

On top of that we have another analysis which showed that the sample is S14609+ which is on the M78 level and that it is PF1985- which is on the Z830 level. This directly contradicts the haplogroup assignment given in the "Indo-European.eu document".

Pribislav
04-12-2020, 07:09 PM
Additional Y-calls for sample I4246 from Olalde et al. 2019:

I4246; 2473-2030 BC; Camino de las Yeseras; Spain; Iberia_Chl; E1b1b1a2-pre-V1039 (xY161140) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V1039/)

V1039 level:

V3737+ G>T (4 reads)

FT12049/FGC89649/Y166829+ T>A (1 read)

FGC89674/Y161161+ T>A (1 read)

Y27268+ T>A (2 reads)

FGC89702/Y161144+ A>G (1 read)

FGC89717/Y166803+ A>G (2 reads)

Y161159/FGC89625/V7926+ C>A (1 read)

V2641+ G>A (1 read)

FGC89697/Y166828/FT13168 ? G>T (1 derived, 1 ancestral read)

Y166816/FGC89644/FT12757 ? C>A (1 derived, 2 ancestral reads)

Y126037- C>T (1 read)

FGC89635/Y166815/FT12807- C>T (1 read)



V1039>Y161140 level:

V6586/FGC89696/Y161171- T>G (1 read)

Ruderico
04-13-2020, 08:31 AM
Additional Y-calls for sample I4246 from Olalde et al. 2019:

I4246; 2473-2030 BC; Camino de las Yeseras; Spain; Iberia_Chl; E1b1b1a2-(pre?-)V1039 (xY161140) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V1039/)
Thanks Pribislav, that's the sample who has significant north African ancestry so his father or his grandfather were originally somewhere from the southern Mediterranean. It probably had split from its common branch with Y161140 not that many generations before since Y161140's TMRCA is 5000 years

Amhas
04-13-2020, 08:47 AM
Additional Y-calls for sample I4246 from Olalde et al. 2019:

I4246; 2473-2030 BC; Camino de las Yeseras; Spain; Iberia_Chl; E1b1b1a2-(pre?-)V1039 (xY161140) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V1039/)

V1039 level:

V3737+ G>T (4 reads)

FT12049/FGC89649/Y166829+ T>A (1 read)

FGC89674/Y161161+ T>A (1 read)

Y27268+ T>A (2 reads)

FGC89702/Y161144+ A>G (1 read)

FGC89717/Y166803+ A>G (2 reads)

Y161159/FGC89625/V7926+ C>A (1 read)

V2641+ G>A (1 read)

FGC89697/Y166828/FT13168 ? G>T (1 derived, 1 ancestral read)

Y166816/FGC89644/FT12757 ? C>A (1 derived, 2 ancestral reads)

Y126037- C>T (1 read)

FGC89635/Y166815/FT12807- C>T (1 read)



V1039>Y161140 level:

V6586/FGC89696/Y161171- T>G (1 read)

That's a great analysis, thank you for sharing.
Is it possible to have something similar for the Sardinian E-V68* (with North african ancestry) from this paper.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-020-1102-0

Kelmendasi
04-14-2020, 07:15 PM
I have read on another forum that sample SNN001 (San Nicola Necropoli Esterna) from the paper on Sardinia is actually V13>CTS9320 (S20250+) rather than just L618* based on BAM analysis http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=4640.0. Would be great if someone could check if this is correct.

Dorkymon
04-14-2020, 07:18 PM
You guys still have the Glinoe sample from Moldova shown on the other end of the country, in your community map.

Pribislav
04-14-2020, 08:00 PM
I have read on another forum that sample SNN001 (San Nicola Necropoli Esterna) from the paper on Sardinia is actually V13>CTS9320 (S20250+) rather than just L618* based on BAM analysis http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=4640.0. Would be great if someone could check if this is correct.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19227-Population-history-from-the-Neolithic-to-present-(Sardinia)-Marcus-et-al-(2019-)&p=631804&viewfull=1#post631804 (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19227-Population-history-from-the-Neolithic-to-present-(Sardinia)-Marcus-et-al-(2019-)&p=631804&viewfull=1#post631804)

Pribislav
04-15-2020, 04:42 AM
That's a great analysis, thank you for sharing.
Is it possible to have something similar for the Sardinian E-V68* (with North african ancestry) from this paper.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-020-1102-0

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19763-Spread-of-Steppe-ancestry-to-the-Western-Mediterranean-(Fernandes-et-al-2020)&p=659295&viewfull=1#post659295


I15940; 2345-2146 BC; Anghelu Ruju, Sardinia, Italy; Sardinia_Chl; E1b1b1a2-pre-V1039 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V1039/)

V1039 level:

V2196/SK861+ A>G (1 read)

FGC89717/Y166803+ A>G (1 read)

FGC89627/FT13863/Y166814+ C>G (1 read)

V3737+ G>T (1 read)

FGC89671/Y161145/V5369+ T>C (1 read)

Y126037- C>T (2 reads)

Y166816/FT12757/FGC89644- C>A (2 reads)

FGC89697/Y166828/FT13168- G>T (1 read)

Y161177/FGC89803- G>A (3 reads)

Pribislav
04-16-2020, 07:26 PM
This one hasn't been analyzed by me, but it's from a trusted source:

I12031; 500-600 AD; Pla de l'Horta, Girona, Spain; Visigoth_Medieval; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784>Y93395 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y93395/)

Keqa
04-16-2020, 11:59 PM
This one hasn't been analyzed by me, but it's from a trusted source:

I12031; 500-600 AD; Pla de l'Horta, Girona, Spain; Visigoth_Medieval; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784>Y93395 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y93395/)

Yeah, I have checked him out too. Low quality sample but he is indeed Y93395+

Passa
04-18-2020, 11:30 PM
Two ancient DE individuals belonging to the North Caucasus Koban culture added. Source (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X20301486?dgcid=coauthor&fbclid=IwAR1TjmgWfFuhhqc2uHlGZ58J75diggdCcW6Qt2pz5 ss5d5B6i-2hPEIGn58#ab010).

Pribislav
04-18-2020, 11:59 PM
Two ancient DE individuals belonging to the North Caucasus Koban culture added. Source (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X20301486?dgcid=coauthor&fbclid=IwAR1TjmgWfFuhhqc2uHlGZ58J75diggdCcW6Qt2pz5 ss5d5B6i-2hPEIGn58#ab010).

Assignment E1a2a1b1b-CTS4038 for sample no.2 is almost certainly false. Apart from finding that clade in any past or present Caucasus population doesn't make any sense at all, authors for some reason ignored two more probable assignments:

C2-M217 level: CTS8216+

C2-M217>L1373>F3447>F1699 level: FGC16362+

or this one:

R1b-M343 level: L1349+

R1b-M343>>>>M269 level: PF6444+

Besides these, this low coverage sample also has derived calls for haplogroups J1, L and O, so why the authors have chosen to assign it to the least probable of these haplogroups is beyond me.

Hawk
04-19-2020, 12:41 AM
This one hasn't been analyzed by me, but it's from a trusted source:

I12031; 500-600 AD; Pla de l'Horta, Girona, Spain; Visigoth_Medieval; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784>Y93395 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y93395/)

Is his subclade Balkan in origin or some Central European?

Pribislav
04-19-2020, 12:59 AM
Is his subclade Balkan in origin or some Central European?

Looks more Central European to me. Most results on FTDNA and YFull are from Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria, with several from Italy, Malta and England. Given its TMRCA is ~900 BC, my guess is it could've originated in some Early Iron Age Pannonian-Illyrian tribe.

Farroukh
04-19-2020, 09:54 AM
Boulygina et al. Mitochondrial and Y-chromosome diversity of the prehistoric Koban culture of the North Caucasus (2020) (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X20301486?dgcid=coauthor)

Sample number Burial site Mitochondrial haplogroup (Sanger sequencing) Mitochondrial haplogroup (Illumina sequencing) Y-chromosomal haplogroup (Illumina sequencing)
2 Klin-Yar-3 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klin-Yar) J1c J1b1 E1a2a1b1b (E-CTS4038 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-CTS4038/))

E1a-CTS4038 aDNA sample from Koban culture,Stavropol (Russia) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koban_culture)

UPD: Wrong attribution. See comments of Pribislav (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?p=660275#post660275)

Bane
04-19-2020, 11:00 AM
2 Klin-Yar-3 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klin-Yar) J1c J1b1 E1a2a1b1b (E-CTS4038 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-CTS4038/))

E1a-CTS4038 aDNA sample from Koban culture,Stavropol (Russia) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koban_culture)


Pribislav already wrote that this one is most probably wrong assignment:


Assignment E1a2a1b1b-CTS4038 for sample no.2 is almost certainly false. Apart from finding that clade in any past or present Caucasus population doesn't make any sense at all, authors for some reason ignored two more probable assignments:

C2-M217 level: CTS8216+

C2-M217>L1373>F3447>F1699 level: FGC16362+

or this one:

R1b-M343 level: L1349+

R1b-M343>>>>M269 level: PF6444+

Besides these, this low coverage sample also has derived calls for haplogroups J1, L and O, so why the authors have chosen to assign it to the least probable of these haplogroups is beyond me.

Farroukh
04-19-2020, 11:15 AM
Thanks, I updated that post.

Aspar
04-26-2020, 01:56 PM
This one hasn't been analyzed by me, but it's from a trusted source:

I12031; 500-600 AD; Pla de l'Horta, Girona, Spain; Visigoth_Medieval; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>Y35953>PF6784>Y93395 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y93395/)

At CTS1273 level:

CTS5856 = A>G = 1 read
CTS1273 = no reads
CTS3207 = no reads
CTS7237 = G>G = 1 read
PF2217 = no reads
CTS9761 = no reads
Y27158 = C>C = 2 reads

Hmm this sample appears to be negative on two SNP's at CTS1273 level of which one is with 2 reads...

RagingBull
04-28-2020, 01:49 AM
Assignment E1a2a1b1b-CTS4038 for sample no.2 is almost certainly false. Apart from finding that clade in any past or present Caucasus population doesn't make any sense at all, authors for some reason ignored two more probable assignments:

C2-M217 level: CTS8216+

C2-M217>L1373>F3447>F1699 level: FGC16362+

or this one:

R1b-M343 level: L1349+

R1b-M343>>>>M269 level: PF6444+

Besides these, this low coverage sample also has derived calls for haplogroups J1, L and O, so why the authors have chosen to assign it to the least probable of these haplogroups is beyond me.

I have to respectfully disagree regarding the presence of E1a in the Caucasus. E1a and E1b1a have been found near the Caucasus (in Iran, Central Asia and India) and many eyewitnesses, including Herodotus, mention the presence of Sub-Saharan populations in the Colchis region.

Farroukh
04-28-2020, 05:48 AM
African subclades present in Georgia and Azerbaijan up to date. But in this case it was wrong interpretation of Y-SNP results. The sample seems to be R1b-M269.

Hawk
04-28-2020, 07:17 AM
African subclades present in Georgia and Azerbaijan up to date. But in this case it was wrong interpretation of Y-SNP results. The sample seems to be R1b-M269.

Probably the same error happened with Pharaoh Ramesses, but due to appeasing the American mass they never bothered to fix their error. But in this case, confusing E1a with R1b SNP is alarming.

Farroukh
04-29-2020, 03:02 AM
Pharao's Y-DNA was tested for Y-STR only. "E-M2" or "E-V22" are just predictions and nothing else. Both of them are probable for Egypt area.
End of offtopic.

Finn
05-03-2020, 11:46 AM
Ekaterina Yatsishina's presentation (22:49) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOOVE32-nXI) (in Russian) about DNA analysis of Egyptian mummies from the Pushkin Museum (https://pushkinmuseum.art/exposition_collection/collections/archeology/index.php?lang=en&combi_coll_struct=1#objects).

One of them was the bearer of E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a (equal to E-Y32576 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y32576/))

But who was him? The museum exhibits the sarcophagi of Shepsi-pu-Min, Mahu, Khor-Aha... Who among them was E-Y32576?

Many thanks Farroukh!

Exciting! I missed this completely.....:doh:

But this branch is exactly mine!

From an Egyptian sarcophagus to the center of Friesland.....enigmatic.

Of course as you can understand this I'm also very curios now which one was him?

rms2
05-03-2020, 04:53 PM
Many thanks Farroukh!

Exciting! I missed this completely.....:doh:

But this branch is exactly mine!

From an Egyptian sarcophagus to the center of Friesland.....enigmatic.

Of course as you can understand this I'm also very curios now which one was him?

Probably Imhotep. ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_IFk-NA7eo

Finn
05-03-2020, 05:38 PM
Probably Imhotep. ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_IFk-NA7eo

Or.....:biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1:


https://www.gettyimages.nl/detail/video/former-prime-minister-margaret-thatcher-makes-jokes-nieuwsfootage/1B07421_0007

digital_noise
05-03-2020, 06:20 PM
Many thanks Farroukh!

Exciting! I missed this completely.....:doh:

But this branch is exactly mine!

From an Egyptian sarcophagus to the center of Friesland.....enigmatic.

Of course as you can understand this I'm also very curios now which one was him?

this is exciting! congrats on the connection

Ruderico
05-03-2020, 06:20 PM
Many thanks Farroukh!

Exciting! I missed this completely.....:doh:

But this branch is exactly mine!

From an Egyptian sarcophagus to the center of Friesland.....enigmatic.

Of course as you can understand this I'm also very curios now which one was him?

Well if it's the mummy I'm seeing he was from 1st century BC whereas your branch's MRCA lived ~3600BC, so you there's the possibility you may not even have an ancient Egyptian patrilinear ancestor :p but if you do I'd blame it on the Romans

Finn
05-03-2020, 06:58 PM
Well if it's the mummy I'm seeing he was from 1st century BC whereas your branch's MRCA lived ~3600BC, so you there's the possibility you may not even have an ancient Egyptian patrilinear ancestor :p but if you do I'd blame it on the Romans

The last one is a big chance, or my pet theory the Spanish Army that plundered the village of my oldest ancestors:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Boksum

I guess the 'patriarch' lived along the Nile, research I did with Wim Penninx (and with the help of Passa) a few years ago:
http://e-v22.net/origin/
http://e-v22.net/descendants/

Bealfire
05-03-2020, 07:20 PM
EV22 seems to have been quite common among pre-Em81 Northwest Africans. It might even have been one of the main lineages that spread Proto-Berber into Northwest Africa. The presence of relatively old EV22 in Spain and Sardinia are indications of it.

Bealfire
05-03-2020, 07:25 PM
Your lineage has a TMRCA of 5600 years which corresponds perfectly with Neolithic settlements in Egypt and probably a massive demographic boom in the Nile valley without any doubt.

Finn
05-03-2020, 08:11 PM
Well if it's the mummy I'm seeing he was from 1st century BC whereas your branch's MRCA lived ~3600BC, so you there's the possibility you may not even have an ancient Egyptian patrilinear ancestor :p but if you do I'd blame it on the Romans

By the way it's not one they studied nine......


Nine ancient Egyptian mummies (dated preliminarily to the period from the 1st mill. BCE to thefirst centuries CE) from the collection of the State Pushkin Museum of Fine Arts have been studied at theNational Research Centre “Kurchatov Institute” (NRC KI) on the base of the complex of NBICS technol-ogies. Tomographic scanning is performed using a magneto-resonance tomograph (3 T) and a hybrid posi-tron emission tomography/computed tomography (PET-CT) scanner. Three-dimensional reconstructionsof mummies and their anthropological measurements are carried out. Some medical conclusions are drawn based on the tomographic data. In addition, the embalming composition and tissue of one of the mummiesare preliminarily analyzed.

https://www.academia.edu/37446247/Interdisciplinary_Study_of_Egyptian_Mummies_from_t he_Pushkin_State_Museum_of_Fine_Arts_Collection_at _the_National_Research_Centre_Kurchatov_Institute_

Finn
05-03-2020, 09:32 PM
Probably Imhotep. ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_IFk-NA7eo

May I ask a favor? As your wife is Russian can she spell out what is written and said from 22:49 is not only about the E-V22 but also about R1b when I see it well....Thanks in advance!!!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HOOVE32-nXI

Farroukh
05-04-2020, 04:51 AM
Dear Finn,
Highly likely it was Shepsi-pu-Min.
My Russian is fluent, there was also R1b1a1b bearer (eq. to V1636 or FT40455)

Finn
05-04-2020, 09:22 AM
Dear Finn,
Highly likely it was Shepsi-pu-Min.
My Russian is fluent, there was also R1b1a1b bearer (eq. to V1636 or FT40455)

:humble:
Thanks to the attention and cleverness of Farroukh my ydna is no longer dead end street.....

Finn
05-04-2020, 01:28 PM
Dear Finn,
Highly likely it was Shepsi-pu-Min.
My Russian is fluent, there was also R1b1a1b bearer (eq. to V1636 or FT40455)

Why do you think that Shepsi-pu-Min is the E-V22 (/ https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y32576/) one? (of the nine....).

Finn
05-08-2020, 12:39 PM
Probably Imhotep. ;)

[]

And guess what.....

“You don’t think 2,000 years ago that Ancient Egyptians came to Yorkshire –
but they did.”

“It really does widen your horizons – in some ways it blows your mind,”


https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/ancient-egyptians-links-yorkshire-uncovered-1857352?fbclid=IwAR3LxxwFbvFtuYZEGVMBjZsB6JzGzdIo0 lNK0qbqnUx4KVon6zCSvFiKBjM

Passa
05-27-2020, 12:51 PM
Map updated with 6 samples ranging from the Middle Neolithic to the Late Iron Age from today's France. Link (https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/05/20/1918034117) to the paper.

Note: the presence of SNP-tested E samples in BORS-Michelsberg individuals from Alsace indicates that the individual from Bruchsal-Aue in nearby Germany (also part of the Michelsberg culture), predicted E-M215 through STR analysis, may indeed be a real M215 case.

Farroukh
05-27-2020, 06:40 PM
E1b1a1a1a1c2c (5640-5350 ybp) eq. to E-CTS3274 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-CTS3274/) from Ferme de l'Île (Noyen, France) is the first ancient European with stereotyped Sub-Saharan subclade. Very interesting

Kelmendasi
05-27-2020, 06:50 PM
Map updated with 6 samples ranging from the Middle Neolithic to the Late Iron Age from today's France. Link (https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/05/20/1918034117) to the paper.

Note: the presence of SNP-tested E samples in BORS-Michelsberg individuals from Alsace indicates that the individual from Bruchsal-Aue in nearby Germany (also part of the Michelsberg culture), predicted E-M215 through STR analysis, may indeed be a real M215 case.
Very interesting, I think it's possible that these E-M78 samples from the Michelsberg culture will turn out to be positive for L618. I also wonder if the La Tène E-M215 sample is in fact V13+.

Passa
05-28-2020, 03:45 PM
An amazing week overall. The map has been updated with another E sample (V65+), this time from Hellenistic-period Beirut in modern-day Lebanon. Source (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ajhg.2020.05.008).

Three other samples, from Bronze Age Israel, have been added to the map. Source (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024).

Map updated with two E-L795 samples from Bronze Age Northern Levant and Anatolia. Source (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.044).

Ruderico
05-28-2020, 04:01 PM
An amazing week overall. The map has been updated with another E sample (V65+), this time from Hellenistic-period Beirut in modern-day Lebanon. Source (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ajhg.2020.05.008).

There might be more here
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20458-Filling-Important-Gaps-in-the-Genomic-History-of-Southwest-Asia&p=670474#post670474

Edit:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20461-The-Genomic-History-of-the-Bronze-Age-Southern-Levant
1x M34; 2x M34>M84

Lupriac
05-29-2020, 09:52 PM
I found an E-V65 man from Bekaa, Lebanon. It was considered as non-existent in Lebanon, before. Guess what ;) Turns out E-V65 presence is clearly pre-Islamic, when it was most likely from medieval north Africa. Gotta love these samples.

Adamm
05-29-2020, 09:54 PM
I found an E-V65 man from Bekaa, Lebanon. It was considered as non-existent in Lebanon, before. Guess what ;) Turns out E-V65 presence is clearly pre-Islamic, when it was most likely from the medieval age.

Can you tell me more about E-V65, where does it peaks?

Lupriac
05-29-2020, 09:57 PM
Can you tell me more about E-V65, where does it peaks?

(Just so I don't hijack the thread or anything, a quick answer) It appears E-V65 peaks in Libya and is quite a significant clade among Berbers from North Africa. The sample, dating to the Hellenistic era, is V65+ which is very interesting, makes me wonder how this clade got there. Plenty of historical explanations, a Berber merchant who sailed with the Phoenicians perhaps.

Adamm
05-29-2020, 10:02 PM
(Just so I don't hijack the thread or anything, a quick answer) It appears E-V65 peaks in Libya and is quite a significant clade among Berbers from North Africa. The sample, dating to the Hellenistic era, is V65+ which is very interesting, makes me wonder how this clade got there. Plenty of historical explanations, a Berber merchant who sailed with the Phoenicians perhaps.

Thanks for the reply, I asked indeed because I know many several Berbers from a DNA group with this haplogroup and it peaks on the Western coast of Morocco in certain tribes.

Passa
06-05-2020, 01:53 PM
Map updated with a medieval E-V13 sample from Krakauer Berg, Germany. Source (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.20.106971v1).

ashraff
06-05-2020, 10:33 PM
I found an E-V65 man from Bekaa, Lebanon. It was considered as non-existent in Lebanon, before. Guess what ;) Turns out E-V65 presence is clearly pre-Islamic, when it was most likely from medieval north Africa. Gotta love these samples.

Hi. Moe,
Can you please provide me with the markers of the E-V65 sample from Bakaa?
Iam also E-V65 from Palestine,
Thanks in advance

Aspar
06-07-2020, 12:00 PM
Probably the OP didn't see my earlier post but the prediction of the Visigoth as E-Y93395 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y93395/) is wrong and it should be corrected in the map.

This sample is ancestral on two snp's at CTS1273 level:

At E-CTS1273 level:

CTS5856 = A>G (1G)
CTS1273 = no reads
CTS3207 = no reads
CTS7237 = G>A (1G)
PF2217 = no reads
CTS9761 = no reads
Y27158 = C>G (2C)

So the most appropriate classification is:

I12031; 500-600 AD; Pla de l'Horta, Girona, Spain; Visigoth_Medieval; E-V13>E-Z1057>E-CTS5856* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/)

Halgurd
06-11-2020, 01:22 AM
Does anyone know what clade of E-M35 the Catal Hoyuk sample belonged to?

Passa
06-13-2020, 12:37 PM
Map updated with several Pastoral Neolithic samples from Kenya and Bantu-related samples from Botswana. Source (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/24/eaaz0183.full).

piye
06-13-2020, 01:48 PM
Map updated with several Pastoral Neolithic samples from Kenya and Bantu-related samples from Botswana. Source (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/24/eaaz0183.full).

What of the east african forager(with no PN or bantu ancestry just as Mota) samples with E and CT haplogroups? Hope they were updated too

The significance is also noted

Passa
06-13-2020, 01:52 PM
What of the east african forager(with no PN or bantu ancestry just as Mota) samples with E and CT haplogroups? Hope they were updated too

The significance is also noted

I do not count 300-year-old samples as "ancients". Regarding the CT samples: unless a sample is confirmed M96+, it won't be shown on the map.

Aspar
06-15-2020, 12:12 PM
Snp calls for I10853, Medieval, 770–1200 CE, NE Iberia : E-CTS1273* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/)

E-V13: (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/)
21228969 V7565/Y3865/FGC11422/SK887+ C>A(1A)
19246289 CTS10084/PF2245/Z1058+ C>T(1T)
22299418 Y3181- T>G(5T) ==> Low mapping quality read(so most possibly a wrong or a false read)

E-Z1057: (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1057/)
no calls

E-CTS1273: (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/)
14724656 CTS3207/PF2224+ C>T(1T)
3562986 Y27158- C>G(2C) ==> Low mapping quality read(so most possibly a wrong or a false read)

E-FT7781: (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT7781/)
no calls

E-Y35953: (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y35953/)
no calls
E-PF6784: (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PF6784/)
8738410 Y36784- A>G(1A)

E-BY3880: (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY3880/)
22235412 BY3880- A>G(1A) ==> Low mapping quality read(so most possibly a wrong or a false read)

E-CTS9320:
23746303 Y3761/FGC36575- C>A(1C)

Finn
06-21-2020, 11:51 AM
Probably Imhotep. ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_IFk-NA7eo


The linking pin:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20751-Aethiops-milites-The-genetic-trace-of-Roman-Egyptian-soldiers-in-North-West-Europe&p=677731#post677731

Lupriac
07-01-2020, 01:44 PM
Passa, is there any information about the terminal SNP of the Ebla sample?

Pribislav
07-01-2020, 03:26 PM
Passa, is there any information about the terminal SNP of the Ebla sample?

ETM010; 2500-2000 BC; Ebla; Syria_EMBA; E-M84>>>CTS9608 (xY179279,BY79385,CTS2633,PF6391,Y84338,BY10898) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9608/)

shadowhite
07-03-2020, 11:33 AM
please delete

shadowhite
07-04-2020, 10:45 AM
Probably the OP didn't see my earlier post but the prediction of the Visigoth as

I12031; 500-600 AD; Pla de l'Horta, Girona, Spain; Visigoth_Medieval; E-V13>E-Z1057>E-CTS5856* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/)

ETM010; 2500-2000 BC; Ebla; Syria_EMBA; E-M84>>>CTS9608 (xY179279,BY79385,CTS2633,PF6391,Y84338,BY10898) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9608/)

HI

Mr. Ted Kandell Says
Analyze sample IAM.5 again and is pre-E-L539 PF2195+ PF2108
is not pre E-M81
What do you think, dear experts?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dUmGqQ3cMbbQYcOYQY4GXS7D-MsmWYZo4KcuAxP4yiU/edit?fbclid=IwAR2Btnk-GKSnFDmOhu-DVmjk10bAhfNfI-kDiakXv60biMnyS4UHiGdSF20#gid=778602462

BAM:

http://open-genomes.org/genomes/Fregel%20(2018)/IAM.5/?fbclid=IwAR2YBfOzYwqxRnpENoLiIb3H_ZqITZH704011hT8 OM1hP-B2Utogv76qXdo

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS1937409

Imesmouden
07-07-2020, 02:19 PM
Any informations about Grotta Colombi sample?

Johane Derite
07-10-2020, 07:39 PM
E-V13 S2979 (E-BY4992) sample in the Hungarian Árpád Dynasty paper:

LINK: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-020-0683-z/tables/2?fbclid=IwAR2M-C1BK3WVftb9jWV_zjxdIkI_NWuPcWE8P0ymS-lP0fju0QE3TJgsuZI

Sample: HU53
Mitochondria: H1c1

Buried: Inside the church, site not specified

(Church: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Basilica_of_the_Assumption_of_the_Blessed_Virgin_M ary )

Riverman
07-10-2020, 07:59 PM
E-V13 S2979 (E-BY4992) sample in the Hungarian Árpád Dynasty paper:

LINK: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-020-0683-z/tables/2?fbclid=IwAR2M-C1BK3WVftb9jWV_zjxdIkI_NWuPcWE8P0ymS-lP0fju0QE3TJgsuZI

Sample: HU53
Mitochondria: H1c1

Buried: Inside the church, site not specified

(Church: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Basilica_of_the_Assumption_of_the_Blessed_Virgin_M ary )

Did they do an autosomal analysis too?

Johane Derite
07-10-2020, 10:23 PM
Did they do an autosomal analysis too?

As far as I saw it was just Y analysis

Kelmendasi
07-10-2020, 11:15 PM
E-V13 S2979 (E-BY4992) sample in the Hungarian Árpád Dynasty paper:

LINK: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-020-0683-z/tables/2?fbclid=IwAR2M-C1BK3WVftb9jWV_zjxdIkI_NWuPcWE8P0ymS-lP0fju0QE3TJgsuZI

Sample: HU53
Mitochondria: H1c1

Buried: Inside the church, site not specified

(Church: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Basilica_of_the_Assumption_of_the_Blessed_Virgin_M ary )
Interesting, E-BY4992 is a downstream of FGC11450 and is just upstream of Y58870 (BY4994) https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y58870/. E-BY4992 has been found in an English sample from the town of Bath in southwestern England, BY4992>BY4994 (Y58870) on the other hand has been found in two Germans from Schleswig-Holstein in northern Germany. The Germans share a TMRCA of 900 ybp.

From what I have gathered the samples are dated back to the 12th century CE, though someone should double-check this as I am not too sure. If sample HU53 really is from this time period, then it would be rather close to the TMRCA of BY4994, suggesting that he may have lived around Central Europe.

capsian
10-14-2020, 04:01 PM
Hello Passa must be corrected culture specimen Cucuteni-Trypillian 6000 years this sample is under E-Z830 not E-M78

Bane
10-14-2020, 04:08 PM
Hello Passa must be corrected culture specimen Cucuteni-Trypillian 6000 years this sample is under E-Z830 not E-M78

How do you know that?

capsian
10-14-2020, 06:09 PM
How do you know that?
Hello i seen it on this site
https://haplogroup.info/all-ancient-dna.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1FX2yfEgqDeFT_C9DDVzvxM9PNeG3Ip 0Riv1v40khhmCLcZPVRZ7o8qKg

Bane
10-14-2020, 06:16 PM
Hello i seen it on this site
https://haplogroup.info/all-ancient-dna.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1FX2yfEgqDeFT_C9DDVzvxM9PNeG3Ip 0Riv1v40khhmCLcZPVRZ7o8qKg

They most likely got it wrong: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=657903&viewfull=1#post657903
There is no explanation for such SNP assignment.

capsian
10-14-2020, 06:24 PM
thank you

leorcooper19
10-23-2020, 05:18 AM
Hey Passa, awesome work on the creation and upkeep of the map! Definitely a needed and appreciated endeavor. I'd just like to submit a correction to the listed terminal on one of the samples. The sample currently labeled as E-Y14899 in the Bakhchysarai district of Crimea is not confirmed to be in that clade; they only have 17 STRs and the Y14899 terminal comes from a low-confidence Nevgen estimate. There are no specific markers within those 17 that are known to be able to consistently distinguish E-Y14899 from other subclades of E-M84. As it stands, the most we can say is that he is somewhere in E-M84. Thanks!

Passa
11-02-2020, 11:13 AM
EDIT: Tell Atchana samples removed due to erroneous haplogroup assignment.

ghazi
11-02-2020, 01:54 PM
Hi Passa, Actually Tell Atchana ALA001 & ALA002 are J1, not E-M123. This has been confirmed by Eirini Skourtanioti

Hawk
11-02-2020, 07:44 PM
Hi Passa, Actually Tell Atchana ALA001 & ALA002 are J1, not E-M123. This has been confirmed by Eirini Skourtanioti

I wonder one thing, how is it possible in an exact science to miss macro-haplogroup E with J. You can missmatch say J1b1b1a with J1b1b1b, or E1b1b1b with E1b1b1a, but this is very strange.

I don't know anything about SNP analysis, but from computation perspective this is scandalous. And all of this papers along with their methodology should be taken seriously as astrology or coffee fortune-telling.

RCO
11-02-2020, 08:43 PM
Yes, one of the most important and decisive demographic marker is the Y-DNA and professional geneticists are always making silly mistakes even us from other scientific fields or areas know much better than them.

Finn
11-04-2020, 08:18 PM
Ekaterina Yatsishina's presentation (22:49) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOOVE32-nXI) (in Russian) about DNA analysis of Egyptian mummies from the Pushkin Museum (https://pushkinmuseum.art/exposition_collection/collections/archeology/index.php?lang=en&combi_coll_struct=1#objects).

One of them was the bearer of E1b1b1a1b2a4b5a (equal to E-Y32576 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y32576/))

But who was him? The museum exhibits the sarcophagi of Shepsi-pu-Min, Mahu, Khor-Aha... Who among them was E-Y32576?

Thanks Farroukh
That's my tree!!! Any idea were this sample will be placed?

Greetings the Frisian Pharoah :biggrin1:

Farroukh
11-08-2020, 07:45 AM
Parker et al. (2020) A systematic investigation of human DNA preservation in medieval skeletons (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-75163-w)

Remnants of 10-12 years old boy (sample KRA005), 1170-1258 AD, E1b1b1a1b1a (E-V13, ISOGG-2020), Krakauer Berg (Germany)

https://d.radikal.ru/d25/2011/89/68c28a9ae0cc.png (https://radikal.ru)

Pribislav
11-08-2020, 03:16 PM
Parker et al. (2020) A systematic investigation of human DNA preservation in medieval skeletons (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-75163-w)

Remnants of 10-12 years old boy (sample KRA005), 1170-1258 AD, E1b1b1a1b1a (E-V13, ISOGG-2020), Krakauer Berg (Germany)

KRA005 belongs to E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>L540 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/).

Riverman
11-11-2020, 01:50 PM
KRA005 belongs to E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>L540 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/).

I didn't saw an autosomal analysis of him so far, was his sample coverage too low?

Pribislav
11-11-2020, 02:40 PM
I didn't saw an autosomal analysis of him so far, was his sample coverage too low?

I don't think so, if he has enough coverage for YFull, he should certainly have enough coverage for Global25.

Riverman
11-11-2020, 03:55 PM
I don't think so, if he has enough coverage for YFull, he should certainly have enough coverage for Global25.

But there is no analysis anywhere, or is one? Did people miss or exclude him?

Farroukh
12-06-2020, 07:17 PM
Ancient DNA: https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/. Map based on all-ancient-dna-2-04-62 from www.haplogroup.info by Carlos Quiles (www.indo-european.eu).

capsian
12-21-2020, 06:32 PM
Hi passa you add this remains ot no
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/6/24/eaaz0183.full.pdf

Max_H
01-31-2021, 06:39 PM
E1b1a1a1a1c2c (5640-5350 ybp) eq. to E-CTS3274 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-CTS3274/) from Ferme de l'Île (Noyen, France) is the first ancient European with stereotyped Sub-Saharan subclade. Very interesting

Bit late here but that's interesting, do we have an autosomal profile of that sample?

Farroukh
02-01-2021, 12:18 AM
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/23/12791

capsian
02-01-2021, 06:33 AM
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/23/12791

Hi Farroukh this remains found in map DE Halplgroup

Farroukh
02-01-2021, 08:44 AM
Sure, they are in.

Passa
02-18-2021, 09:34 PM
Added a whopping 18 new samples from Christian Period Kulubnarti, Nubia. Source (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.17.431423v1).

capsian
02-18-2021, 09:48 PM
Added a whopping 18 new samples from Christian Period Kulubnarti in Nubia. Source (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.17.431423v1).

thanks you passa

The Saite
03-25-2021, 12:15 PM
Added a whopping 18 new samples from Christian Period Kulubnarti, Nubia. Source (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.17.431423v1).

Hey, Passa. Hope you are doing great.
When having time, you can update the V22 individual with his personal name ( Hor-kha son of Horemuia ). He lived between the 7th - 4th century BC at Upper Egypt, Akhmim Area. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhmim) Still he could have been of Northern origins. His mummy was likely exchanged with other individual coffin named lady Tashet when the Russian Archaeologists first time found and examined both. There are other information regrading his genealogy and social status, here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-Genetic-Genealogy-amp-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-(DISCUSSION-ONLY)&p=760336#post760336).

And those are some photos of both coffins, The one without the upper piece is his original coffin, the other is where his mummy currently lies but it belongs to lady Tashet.

44014
44015

Finn
03-25-2021, 03:02 PM
Hey, Passa. Hope you are doing great.
When having time, you can update the V22 individual with his personal name ( Hor-kha son of Horemuia ). He lived between the 7th - 4th century BC at Upper Egypt, Akhmim Area. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhmim) Still he could have been of Northern origins. His mummy was likely exchanged with other individual coffin named lady Tashet when the Russian Archaeologists first time found and examined both. There are other information regrading his genealogy and social status, here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-Genetic-Genealogy-amp-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-(DISCUSSION-ONLY)&p=760336#post760336).

Some photos of both coffins, The one without the upper piece is his original coffin, the other is where his mummy currently lies but it belongs to lady Tashet.

44014
44015

:beerchug:

Do we know for sure it is Kor-Ha? #doublecheck

The Saite
03-25-2021, 03:16 PM
:beerchug:

Do we know for sure it is Kor-Ha? #doublecheck

Pretty likely he is. The Coffin 5302 was found in the same area as 5301 (and that's unique the others were found in different areas). Both were opened and examined in 1884. Where the exchange likely happened. When Faroukh first published the leaks. I found at that time a link where the archeologist describes his doupts about the coffins of some mummies being exchanged. Sadly I tried to reach it again in the morning but couldn't. I However found two studies instead. One where the Authors were amazed to find that what supposed to be Hor-Kha mummy was for a female not a male, other one describes both Hor-Kha coffin and lady Tashit one's upon finding both in the same area. And they had similarities in some Hieroglyphics sentences and coffin surfaces. So things make sense IMO.

StillWater
03-25-2021, 03:25 PM
Hey, Passa. Hope you are doing great.
When having time, you can update the V22 individual with his personal name ( Hor-kha son of Horemuia ). He lived between the 7th - 4th century BC at Upper Egypt, Akhmim Area. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhmim) Still he could have been of Northern origins. His mummy was likely exchanged with other individual coffin named lady Tashet when the Russian Archaeologists first time found and examined both. There are other information regrading his genealogy and social status, here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-Genetic-Genealogy-amp-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-(DISCUSSION-ONLY)&p=760336#post760336).

Some photos of both coffins, The one without the upper piece is his original coffin, the other is where his mummy currently lies but it belongs to lady Tashet.

44014
44015

Do we know where he fits in the E-V22 tree?

The Saite
03-25-2021, 03:39 PM
Do we know where he fits in the E-V22 tree?

It fits here E-Y32576 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y32576/). As far as E-BY6800 level.
In both cases it's a close relative for our Dutch friend here, Finn. :)
Also we may see Hor-Kha at yfull soon.

Finn
03-25-2021, 05:05 PM
Pretty likely he is. The Coffin 5302 was found in the same area as 5301 (and that's unique the others were found in different areas). Both were opened and examined in 1884. Where the exchange likely happened. When Faroukh first published the leaks. I found at that time a link where the archeologist describes his doupts about the coffins of some mummies being exchanged. Sadly I tried to reach it again in the morning but couldn't. I However found two studies instead. One where the Authors were amazed to find that what supposed to be Hor-Kha mummy was for a female not a male, other one describes both Hor-Kha coffin and lady Tashit one's upon finding both in the same area. And they had similarities in some Hieroglyphics sentences and coffin surfaces. So things make sense IMO.

I see on this page that Kor Ha is indeed registered under 5301!

https://pushkinmuseum.art/data/fonds/ancient_east/1_1_a/1_1_a_5301/index.php?lang=en

Farroukh
03-26-2021, 02:30 AM
Also we may see Hor-Kha at yfull soon.
I have contacted them and hope too.

Passa
03-26-2021, 10:24 AM
Hey, Passa. Hope you are doing great.
When having time, you can update the V22 individual with his personal name ( Hor-kha son of Horemuia ). He lived between the 7th - 4th century BC at Upper Egypt, Akhmim Area. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhmim) Still he could have been of Northern origins. His mummy was likely exchanged with other individual coffin named lady Tashet when the Russian Archaeologists first time found and examined both. There are other information regrading his genealogy and social status, here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-Genetic-Genealogy-amp-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-(DISCUSSION-ONLY)&p=760336#post760336).

And those are some photos of both coffins, The one without the upper piece is his original coffin, the other is where his mummy currently lies but it belongs to lady Tashet.

44014
44015

Hi The Saite, thank you for your service. I updated the map with the information you found.

Passa
03-26-2021, 08:42 PM
Added two new Scythian E-M215 individuals from Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan, respectively, and one new D-M174 sample from Kazakhstan. Source (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/13/eabe4414).

capsian
03-26-2021, 09:25 PM
Added two new Scythian E-M215 individuals from Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, and one new D-M174 sample from Uzbekistan. Source (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/13/eabe4414).

in peroid Scythians
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/13/eabe4414?fbclid=IwAR1Mcz4Yl-DE7X77RnYLVFf55rGhHzvK1ghMtyo6udj5i7HLK9ZkkhHfJhM

Halgurd
03-26-2021, 10:02 PM
Added two new Scythian E-M215 individuals from Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, and one new D-M174 sample from Uzbekistan. Source (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/13/eabe4414).

Finally E-V13 found in Central Asia. It was about time. Thanks for updating.

Aspar
03-26-2021, 10:08 PM
Finally E-V13 found in Central Asia. It was about time. Thanks for updating.

Is it E-V13 or E-M215? Is there any information on these samples being E-V13?

Passa
03-26-2021, 10:11 PM
Is it E-V13 or E-M215? Is there any information on these samples being E-V13?

The individual Halgurd is referring to is claimed to be V13+ by the authors. Check the source I linked, specifically the supplementary tables.

Aspar
03-26-2021, 10:16 PM
The individual Halgurd is referring to is claimed to be V13+ by the authors. Check the source I linked, specifically the supplementary tables.

Thanks.
Hopefully the BAM files are shared by the authors of the paper so we can check for more downstream SNP's....

Pribislav
03-26-2021, 11:05 PM
Added two new Scythian E-M215 individuals from Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, respectively, and one new D-M174 sample from Uzbekistan. Source (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/13/eabe4414).

There are no samples from Uzbekistan in this paper.


We generated new genome-wide data from skeletal remains of 117 ancient individuals: 1 from Hungary, 76 from Kazakhstan, 17 from Kyrgyzstan, 23 from Russia.

capsian
03-26-2021, 11:42 PM
There are no samples from Uzbekistan in this paper.

where

Passa
03-27-2021, 09:05 AM
There are no samples from Uzbekistan in this paper.

You are right. It's Southern Kazakhstan bordering on Uzbekistan.

Farroukh
03-27-2021, 02:35 PM
ALN008.A0101 2nd-4th c. CE Alai_Nura_300CE D4j E1b1b1b2a(E-M123)

KNT001.A0101 2th-5th c. CE; Otyrar culture Konyr_Tobe_300CE 1741 ±14 245-343 AD I1c1 E1b1b1a1b1a (E-V13)

Alai Nura is in Southern Kyrgyzstan, China border.

Johane Derite
03-27-2021, 05:32 PM
ALN008.A0101 2nd-4th c. CE Alai_Nura_300CE D4j E1b1b1b2a(E-M123)

KNT001.A0101 2th-5th c. CE; Otyrar culture Konyr_Tobe_300CE 1741 ±14 245-343 AD I1c1 E1b1b1a1b1a (E-V13)

Alai Nura is in Southern Kyrgyzstan, China border.

Relevant for the E-V13: "individuals from the Konyr Tobe site located in the ancient city of Otyrar Oasis show a different genetic turnover mostly characterized by an increase in Iranian-related genetic ancestry, most likely reflecting the influence of the Persian empires"

capsian
03-27-2021, 06:34 PM
i think remain on H.g E-V13 Maybe he was the Roman Prisoner of war in Edessa in the year 260 AD
This remains dated in 1755 = 266 AD
so maybe he is Prisoner of war roman

Lupriac
03-27-2021, 07:02 PM
i think remain on H.g E-V13 Maybe he was the Roman Prisoner of war in Edessa in the year 260 AD
This remains dated in 1755 = 266 AD
so maybe he is Prisoner of war roman

From what I understood in Johane's post, members of the site are Iranian-linked, so it seems unlikely to be the case that his individual is a Roman/Italic genetically. Would be interesting to discover his branch.

Farroukh
03-28-2021, 08:29 AM
E-M123 sample likely related to Iranian civilisation of Sogdiana (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdia). E-V13 from Otyrar probably related to Greco-Bactrian Kingdom (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom).

capsian
03-28-2021, 09:44 AM
E-M123 sample likely related to Iranian civilisation of Sogdiana (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdia). E-V13 from Otyrar probably related to Greco-Bactrian Kingdom (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom).

E-M123 Maybe is ancient in cental Asia Maybe since 5000 yrs old
but E-V13 i think very possible remain E-V13 was the Roman Prisoner of war in Edessa in the year 260 AD

capsian
03-28-2021, 09:46 AM
E-M123 sample likely related to Iranian civilisation of Sogdiana (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdia). E-V13 from Otyrar probably related to Greco-Bactrian Kingdom (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom).

it s possible remains E-M123 Under E-Y311991 or E-M34

Farroukh
03-28-2021, 10:40 AM
E-V13 i think very possible remain E-V13 was the Roman Prisoner of war in Edessa in the year 260 AD
There are many possible explanations (descendant of Alexander's Greek, Roman POW and so on).

it s possible remains E-M123 Under E-Y311991 or E-M34
Yes, it is possible.

Halgurd
03-28-2021, 10:48 AM
The E-V13 sample (KNT001) cannot be related to either the Romans or Greco-Bactrians.

The individuals from the ancient city of Otyrar Oasis in southern Kazakhstan show a quite distinct genetic profile. Three of five individuals (“Konyr_Tobe_300CE”) fall close to the published Kangju_250CE individuals from a similar time period and region (11), between Sarmatians and BMAC (Fig. 2C). KNT005 is shifted toward BMAC in PCA (Fig. 2C and fig. S1). Furthermore, KNT005 is the only one carrying a South Asian Y haplogroup, L1a2 (data file S1), and showing a South Asian genetic component in ADMIXTURE (Fig. 2D and fig. S2). KNT004 is shifted in PC1 toward East Asians (figs. S1 to S3). Admixture models including ~10% South Asian and ~50% eastern Eurasian influx adequately explain KNT005 and KNT004, respectively (data file S4). In contrast, the individuals from the site of Alai Nura (Alai_Nura_300CE) in the Tian Shan mountains (~200 km east from the Konyr Tobe site) still lay along the IA cline of the Tian Shan Saka, with four individuals falling closer to Konyr_Tobe_300CE and four closer to the Tasmola/Pazyryk cloud (Fig. 2C and figs. S1 to S3).

Plus his mtdna (https://yfull.com/mtree/I1c1/) seems to be Eastern European in origin.

capsian
03-28-2021, 11:00 AM
The E-V13 sample (KNT001) cannot be related to either the Romans or Greco-Bactrians.

The individuals from the ancient city of Otyrar Oasis in southern Kazakhstan show a quite distinct genetic profile. Three of five individuals (“Konyr_Tobe_300CE”) fall close to the published Kangju_250CE individuals from a similar time period and region (11), between Sarmatians and BMAC (Fig. 2C). KNT005 is shifted toward BMAC in PCA (Fig. 2C and fig. S1). Furthermore, KNT005 is the only one carrying a South Asian Y haplogroup, L1a2 (data file S1), and showing a South Asian genetic component in ADMIXTURE (Fig. 2D and fig. S2). KNT004 is shifted in PC1 toward East Asians (figs. S1 to S3). Admixture models including ~10% South Asian and ~50% eastern Eurasian influx adequately explain KNT005 and KNT004, respectively (data file S4). In contrast, the individuals from the site of Alai Nura (Alai_Nura_300CE) in the Tian Shan mountains (~200 km east from the Konyr Tobe site) still lay along the IA cline of the Tian Shan Saka, with four individuals falling closer to Konyr_Tobe_300CE and four closer to the Tasmola/Pazyryk cloud (Fig. 2C and figs. S1 to S3).

Plus his mtdna (https://yfull.com/mtree/I1c1/) seems to be Eastern European in origin.
but frequency distribution of mtDNA haplogroups I throughout Europe so Maybe also he is was roman from origin Balkanian or descendant greeks44049

Riverman
03-28-2021, 11:08 PM
but frequency distribution of mtDNA haplogroups I throughout Europe so Maybe also he is was roman from origin Balkanian or descendant greeks44049

We also have E-V13 in East Asians, especially Northern China, alongside R1a in particular. So its simply the most likely scenario that some E-V13 made it between the Bronze and Iron Age onto the steppe. There were numerous contacts between the Daco-Thracian and Cimmerian, later Iranian sphere, so this is just the most likely pathway. From the Carpathian E-V13 centre into the steppe nomadic society, with some tribes moving over the steppe into the East. The steppe was a highway in both directions and the Carpathian E-V13 centre was at the end of it in Europe. It would be strange if there would have been no Iranian E-V13 carriers and this sample is just another proof for it, which adds up to the knowledge we have already, like from Chinese E-V13 carriers. The Chinese R1a and E-V13 carriers are also Central and Eastern European linked rather.
Of course, there are other possibilities, like those mentioned, but ancient Iranian is the most likely scenario. It also depends on the exact subclade. Anything known? Guess not.

Huban
03-28-2021, 11:38 PM
There are many possible explanations (descendant of Alexander's Greek, Roman POW and so on).


It would depend largely on his clade. There is no evidence ancient Greeks carried significant E-V13, these are 15 year old assumptions based on debunked theories that E-V13 spread from the Neolithic Greece. E-V13 is significantly more associated with Geto-Thracians, and one Scythian find from Moldova was a Getae. And with 5 out of 6 Iron Age Geto-Thracian finds being E-V13.

Huban
03-29-2021, 12:06 AM
but frequency distribution of mtDNA haplogroups I throughout Europe so Maybe also he is was roman from origin Balkanian or descendant greeks44049

Hg I was found already in Srubnaya culture, so I don't think this clade has Greco/Roman relation. Bashkortostan sample and I1c1a seem to be Steppe Iranic related ultimately going by their locations. Romans weren't active that deep into the Asia. And Greeks were not as rich in E-V13 as it is being suggested by some.

Farroukh
03-30-2021, 02:09 AM
. There is no evidence ancient Greeks carried significant E-V13
There are many evidences of early presence of E-V13 on Balkan region more than last ~5000 years. Army of Alexander was the polyethnic massive and the largest one-time migration flow from Europe to Central Asia. Therefore this scenario also seems to be most real than nomadic migration.

Scythoslav
03-30-2021, 04:30 PM
There are many evidences of early presence of E-V13 on Balkan region more than last ~5000 years..


Can you post some?

Farroukh
03-30-2021, 05:21 PM
E-M35 ancient DNA on the YFull 6.01 tree:
http://www.open-genomes.org/analysis/E-M35/E-M35_ancient_DNA_on_the_YFull_6.01_tree.html

Riverman
04-01-2021, 11:42 AM
There are many evidences of early presence of E-V13 on Balkan region more than last ~5000 years. Army of Alexander was the polyethnic massive and the largest one-time migration flow from Europe to Central Asia. Therefore this scenario also seems to be most real than nomadic migration.

Sure, E-V13 was spread by Greeks too, but in this case this is just the second best option. Ultimately the exact subclade will be key.

Halgurd
04-02-2021, 12:11 AM
The E-V13 sample in dispute:

Target: KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity:KNT001
Distance: 2.4898% / 0.02489835
52.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
21.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.4 Levant_PPNB
7.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
4.4 TUR_Barcin_N

Defo Indo-Iranian linked.

altvred
04-02-2021, 01:17 AM
I looked through the FASTQ file of KNT001 to see if he was derived for any SNP downstream of V13.

Only included in here positions with at least 3 reads.

The last column in the screenshot represents the depth of coverage.

https://i.imgur.com/MQH6EFk.png

KNT001 is derived for CTS2001 and several other SNPs on YFull; with a high degree of confidence, he's at least E-Y3762.

Farroukh
04-02-2021, 04:16 AM
one Scythian find from Moldova was a Getae.
He was attributed as E-FGC44169

capsian
04-02-2021, 02:06 PM
He was attributed as E-FGC44169

What about remains E-M123

Principe
04-02-2021, 06:31 PM
I looked through the FASTQ file of KNT001 to see if he was derived for any SNP downstream of V13.

Only included in here positions with at least 3 reads.

The last column in the screenshot represents the depth of coverage.

https://i.imgur.com/MQH6EFk.png

KNT001 is derived for CTS2001 and several other SNPs on YFull; with a high degree of confidence, he's at least E-Y3762.

I have to imagine this should be tied to the Ancient Macedonians if he turns out to be somewhere under CTS9320, considering the young age and all the connections to the Southern Balkans, unless someone from the South travelled to the Scythian world, very cool find!

Huban
04-02-2021, 08:57 PM
I have to imagine this should be tied to the Ancient Macedonians if he turns out to be somewhere under CTS9320, considering the young age and all the connections to the Southern Balkans, unless someone from the South travelled to the Scythian world, very cool find!

If he is E-Z17264 then he might be Ancient Macedonian as this clade has some diversity there. And what "Southern Balkans" connections are you talking about? Because E-CTS9320 is the most Northern/Carpathian shifted E-V13 clade of them all and by its spread and diversity its ancestor did not live in the Balkan Penninsula.. This subclade in its origin seems to be proto-Geto-Dacian first and foremost.

E-CTS9320* negative for other subbranches has been found in Ossetians (I tested this sample). There are two E-CTS9320* branches in Romanians/Hungarians too. And for ex. E-Z17107 has seven clades in Carpathian/Ukrainian areas with Iron Age distance to each other. You don't see that at YFull but you do at FTDNA..

I know that in Uzbeks exists per some STR results a E-Y30991* branch (BigY of this branch should be done soon), and such haplotypes are found in Ukraine. It has nothing to do with any sort of Ancient Greeks or Ancient Macedonian Army..

It depends on his exact subclade.. E-Z17264 or possibly E-Z16988 could indicate some Ancient Macedonian link.


He was attributed as E-FGC44169

I know that, and before he was attributed as E-FGC44169, I knew he was S7461- from his BAM file, just I didn't bother to check for FGC44169.

Huban
04-02-2021, 09:08 PM
There are many evidences of early presence of E-V13 on Balkan region more than last ~5000 years. Army of Alexander was the polyethnic massive and the largest one-time migration flow from Europe to Central Asia. Therefore this scenario also seems to be most real than nomadic migration.

Rather than talk about some hypothetical "5000 years old", "Balkan" connections, lets talk about aDNA evidence concerning the E-V13 in Early Iron Age. This evidence says that out of 3 EIA finds of the Pšeničevo culture in Bulgaria all of them were E-V13. This culture was part of Babadag-Pšeničevo complex, and we do also have a female Babadag culture sample MJ12 labelled as "Thraco-Cimmerian", and this sample had such Cimmerian admixture. So the oldest non-Neolithic E-V13 finds are from Geto-Thracian spectrum with clear Thraco-Cimmerian connotations. Therefore it is expected to see some E-V13 in groups such as Cimmerians who were nomadic..

Huban
04-02-2021, 10:41 PM
This evidence says that out of 3 EIA finds of the Pšeničevo culture in Bulgaria all of them were E-V13. This culture was part of Babadag-Pšeničevo complex, and we do also have a female Babadag culture sample MJ12 labelled as "Thraco-Cimmerian"

Just to add. There is clearly strong association of E-V13 with this EIA culture. However progenitors and carriers of this culture were unlikely to have carried an E-V13 SNP that doesn't sport the TMRCA of around 3000 ybp and are strong numerically even today. And there are only few E-V13 clades that fit such a description. E-FGC44169 has EBA TMRCA and its downstream E-BY5022 has a MBA TMRCA..

Principe
04-03-2021, 12:35 AM
If he is E-Z17264 then he might be Ancient Macedonian as this clade has some diversity there. And what "Southern Balkans" connections are you talking about? Because E-CTS9320 is the most Northern/Carpathian shifted E-V13 clade of them all and by its spread and diversity its ancestor did not live in the Balkan Penninsula.. This subclade in its origin seems to be proto-Geto-Dacian first and foremost.

E-CTS9320* negative for other subbranches has been found in Ossetians (I tested this sample). There are two E-CTS9320* branches in Romanians/Hungarians too. And for ex. E-Z17107 has seven clades in Carpathian/Ukrainian areas with Iron Age distance to each other. You don't see that at YFull but you do at FTDNA..

I know that in Uzbeks exists per some STR results a E-Y30991* branch (BigY of this branch should be done soon), and such haplotypes are found in Ukraine. It has nothing to do with any sort of Ancient Greeks or Ancient Macedonian Army..

It depends on his exact subclade.. E-Z17264 or possibly E-Z16988 could indicate some Ancient Macedonian link.



I know that, and before he was attributed as E-FGC44169, I knew he was S7461- from his BAM file, just I didn't bother to check for FGC44169.

Nice detailed response, there are many Albanians and Bulgarians throughout the branch, I guess it could be the false mirror image from Yfull, was not aware of all that additional information, thanks for that. So what are you thinking for the spread? If it has a strong Carpathian/Romanian/Ukrainian spread too, maybe some Dacian Gatae link? Really curious to hear your thoughts.

BukeKrypEZemer
04-03-2021, 11:35 AM
If he is E-Z17264 then he might be Ancient Macedonian as this clade has some diversity there. And what "Southern Balkans" connections are you talking about? Because E-CTS9320 is the most Northern/Carpathian shifted E-V13 clade of them all and by its spread and diversity its ancestor did not live in the Balkan Penninsula.. This subclade in its origin seems to be proto-Geto-Dacian first and foremost.

E-CTS9320* negative for other subbranches has been found in Ossetians (I tested this sample). There are two E-CTS9320* branches in Romanians/Hungarians too. And for ex. E-Z17107 has seven clades in Carpathian/Ukrainian areas with Iron Age distance to each other. You don't see that at YFull but you do at FTDNA..

I know that in Uzbeks exists per some STR results a E-Y30991* branch (BigY of this branch should be done soon), and such haplotypes are found in Ukraine. It has nothing to do with any sort of Ancient Greeks or Ancient Macedonian Army..

It depends on his exact subclade.. E-Z17264 or possibly E-Z16988 could indicate some Ancient Macedonian link.



I know that, and before he was attributed as E-FGC44169, I knew he was S7461- from his BAM file, just I didn't bother to check for FGC44169.

I would wait for attesting any result without ancient DNA. There were also rumors saying R-PF7562 can not be Illyrian ( I dont remember who was very convinced about it), until the leaks from Albania appeared and said the opposite.
Why should Pannonia be ruled out as option?

altvred
04-03-2021, 05:24 PM
The E-M123 sample from the same Kazakhstan study, ALN008 is derived for 4 SNPs downstream of M123 FGC62237/V7477 (2 reads) and Y141924(2 reads) the rest being 1 read.

https://i.imgur.com/fk7dVBi.png

capsian
04-03-2021, 05:47 PM
The E-M123 sample from the same Kazakhstan study, ALN008 is derived for 4 SNPs downstream of M123 FGC62237/V7477 (2 reads) and Y141924(2 reads) the rest being 1 read.

https://i.imgur.com/fk7dVBi.png

i hope uplod to yfull

Thrawn
04-03-2021, 06:00 PM
Some nice migration images

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/818535532786221116/827642583009460274/do-7000-BC-1024x670.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/818535532786221116/827642723536338954/do-5000-BC-1024x738.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/818535532786221116/827642942784667648/do-1000-BC-1024x733.png

Riverman
04-04-2021, 12:53 AM
The blue zone in the 2000-1000 BC map includes the most likely homeland regions for E-V13 in that era.

Farroukh
04-04-2021, 02:11 PM
The E-M123 sample from the same Kazakhstan study, ALN008
Alai Nura is in Southern Kyrgyzstan, China border.

These E-Y31991 results from Southern Kyrgyzstan correlated with older E-Y31991 from Swat (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18263-An-Ancient-Harappan-Genome-Lacks-Ancestry-from-Steppe-Pastoralists-or-Iranian-Farmers&p=599809&viewfull=1#post599809):

S7725.E1.L1 M65a1 E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8191.E1.L1 T2a1b E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8195.E1.L1 U8b1a2b E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
I6899 .. E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1044-830 cal BCE (2785±45 BP, CEDAD LTL13328A) Pakistan
I6900 .. E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1400-1126 cal BCE (3018± 45 BP, CEDAD LTL13327A) Pakistan
I1985 M E1b1b1b2a Udegram_IA 1192-939 calBCE (2880±30 BP, Beta-428667) Pakistan
I3262 H14a E1b1b1b2a Udegram_IA_father.or.son.I1799 976-832 calBCE (2760±25 BP, PSUAMS-2157) Pakistan
I1799 T2a1b E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA_son.I13262 1044-922 calBCE (2830±20 BP, PSUAMS-2632) Pakistan

The Genomic Formation of South and Central Asia

Aspar
04-04-2021, 02:50 PM
The blue zone in the 2000-1000 BC map includes the most likely homeland regions for E-V13 in that era.

That's way off for the period between 2000-1000 BCE TBH.
If we assume that E-V13 spread in Greece mostly during the LBA as we do then the likeliest association would be with the channeled ware which appeared in Greece during the LBA. However the channeled ware was mostly present in the Vatin Culture and it's successors Belegish and Parachin, the Gava Culture of the north Carpathians and other related cultures. So we are talking about the territory of modern Serbia, Moldova and Romania mostly. That's where E-V13 will most likely show up again between 2000-1000 BCE as it did around 300 BCE with the 'Scythian' sample from Moldova.
The blue region on the map is way off for reasons that this region between 2000-1000 BCE was populated with Balto-Slavic and Lusatian tribes and for a reason that we actually have aDNA from the BA of that region unlike Serbia/Romania which showed complete lack of E-V13.

altvred
04-04-2021, 03:26 PM
i hope uplod to yfull

I've sent them an email with all the details about both KNT001 and ALN008.

I don't see any reason for them not to be added as IMHO, they added aDNA with worse coverage, but maybe they will be extra hesitant to add ancient E samples to the tree due to the age calculation issue for the whole haplogroup.

Riverman
04-04-2021, 04:19 PM
That's way off for the period between 2000-1000 BCE TBH.
If we assume that E-V13 spread in Greece mostly during the LBA as we do then the likeliest association would be with the channeled ware which appeared in Greece during the LBA. However the channeled ware was mostly present in the Vatin Culture and it's successors Belegish and Parachin, the Gava Culture of the north Carpathians and other related cultures. So we are talking about the territory of modern Serbia, Moldova and Romania mostly. That's where E-V13 will most likely show up again between 2000-1000 BCE as it did around 300 BCE with the 'Scythian' sample from Moldova.
The blue region on the map is way off for reasons that this region between 2000-1000 BCE was populated with Balto-Slavic and Lusatian tribes and for a reason that we actually have aDNA from the BA of that region unlike Serbia/Romania which showed complete lack of E-V13.

We have the Pannonian samples which make any strong presence of E-V13 in and South of Pannonia very unlikely in that time frame, with the only sample being from Slovakia. So the blue zone is it in my opinion, but rather the Southern part of it, which covers pretty much the later Gáva-Holigrady provinces. So Eastern Slovakia, South Western Poland, Northern Romania and Moldova.
Modern Serbia and Vatin was a possibility I considered before the Pannonian study. No more.
Belegis Ii-Gava is in my opinion a new formation under more Northern Carparthian and Danubian influences and these new elements will be paternally extremely E-V13 rich, exactly from the Gáva-Holigrady core zone.
That's my current position until new data comes in. About the Lusatian provinces in that time we know very little, even less I'd say.
Vatin was the only chance for a relatively more Southern input, but this cant explain the Pannonian results.

Aspar
04-04-2021, 06:08 PM
We have the Pannonian samples which make any strong presence of E-V13 in and South of Pannonia very unlikely in that time frame, with the only sample being from Slovakia. So the blue zone is it in my opinion, but rather the Southern part of it, which covers pretty much the later Gáva-Holigrady provinces. So Eastern Slovakia, South Western Poland, Northern Romania and Moldova.
Modern Serbia and Vatin was a possibility I considered before the Pannonian study. No more.
Belegis Ii-Gava is in my opinion a new formation under more Northern Carparthian and Danubian influences and these new elements will be paternally extremely E-V13 rich, exactly from the Gáva-Holigrady core zone.
That's my current position until new data comes in. About the Lusatian provinces in that time we know very little, even less I'd say.
Vatin was the only chance for a relatively more Southern input, but this cant explain the Pannonian results.

The thing is, most of the aDNA we have is from Hungary. How many we have from Serbia or Romania between 2000 - 1000 BCE? We don't have any yet of course. The Mokrin Culture aDNA we have from Serbia is dated at the end of the 3rd millennium and it's from a culture that was Bell Beaker related and which practiced inhumations rather than cremations, a feature I consider equally important along with the channeled ware in order to track the movements of E-V13 related people. We have plenty of aDNA from South-East Poland dated between 2500 - 2000 BCE and no E-V13 as of yet. Therefore I don't see the logic in tracing E-V13 there when we know that even Gava related pottery mostly spread southwards, not northwards into Poland. Then again, even though we agree that E-V13 was probably present in Gava, restricting it only and only to Gava it's not reasonable. As for Vatin Culture, it was characteristic for the cremation burial in urns along with the channeled pottery. These characteristics alone were very different than the ones of the Mokrin/Maros culture which suggests a major change of population between 2000 - 1600 BCE considering that Vatin Culture is dated between 1600 - 1300 BCE. Let's wait for aDNA from Serbia/Romania/Moldova between 2000 - 1000 BCE, that will answer a lot of questions but I'm sure E-V13 will show up there considering that the main two traces and characteristics(cremations and channeled ware) were already spread there in the MBA/LBA.

Edit: Of course, uncremated remains will be needed in order to answer that question and that alone will be a very difficult task...

Riverman
04-04-2021, 07:11 PM
The thing is, most of the aDNA we have is from Hungary. How many we have from Serbia or Romania between 2000 - 1000 BCE? We don't have any yet of course. The Mokrin Culture aDNA we have from Serbia is dated at the end of the 3rd millennium and it's from a culture that was Bell Beaker related and which practiced inhumations rather than cremations, a feature I consider equally important along with the channeled ware in order to track the movements of E-V13 related people. We have plenty of aDNA from South-East Poland dated between 2500 - 2000 BCE and no E-V13 as of yet. Therefore I don't see the logic in tracing E-V13 there when we know that even Gava related pottery mostly spread southwards, not northwards into Poland. Then again, even though we agree that E-V13 was probably present in Gava, restricting it only and only to Gava it's not reasonable. As for Vatin Culture, it was characteristic for the cremation burial in urns along with the channeled pottery. These characteristics alone were very different than the ones of the Mokrin/Maros culture which suggests a major change of population between 2000 - 1600 BCE considering that Vatin Culture is dated between 1600 - 1300 BCE. Let's wait for aDNA from Serbia/Romania/Moldova between 2000 - 1000 BCE, that will answer a lot of questions but I'm sure E-V13 will show up there considering that the main two traces and characteristics(cremations and channeled ware) were already spread there in the MBA/LBA.

The issue with Pannonia is that its the bridge between the Northern Danubian-Carpathian and the Southern Danubian-Balkan sphere. It is absolutely decisive that we have no E-V13 at all, for sure not in significant numbers, in Pannonia in the crucial time. This means to me that Vatin is out.
What we both might agree is that the Channelled/Fluted Wares are the cultural formations which spread E-V13 primarily and that Belegis II-Gava is probably not just any but THE most important spreader for E-V13 by and large. There is, to me, absolutely no way that Belegis II is not packed with E-V13 and responsible for the spread of not all (!), but a lot of the modern, surviving E-V13. Probably the single most important for the Balkans with very high certainty. I posted links to maps showing its spread along the Danube and down to Greece.
The question however is, where was Belegis II-Gava coming from and who brought it to them? Because most of the areas in which it spread, where, going by the results we have by now, not E-V13 at all before. And that question, especially considering the Pannonian study and its preliminary results, leads us further to the North, not more Southern than Slovakia.

And I read some interesting interpretations concerning Belegis II, which some considered to be more independent from Gáva-Holigrady, but I don't agree with that. Concerning the timing, to me if somebody says 2000-1000, I can't just count the last 300 years of that period primarily. So yes, by 1.300, I expect E-V13 to move into modern Serbia, especially the Northern parts, but 2.000-1.300 BC, that's the majority of the time for this period. So in this period, between 2.000-1.000 BC, E-V13 descended down the Danube, through Pannonia and along the Carpathians on both sides, that is something we can again agree with. But for most of the time, 700 years of this 1.000 year period, I expect them to be North, not more Southern than the Northern Carpathians, probably with the exceptions of individuals and small clans here and there, we can never exclude that. But the bulk was sitting North, coming down, as a conquering and colonising group, later.

Coming back to Belegis II, I found especially that quotation to be decisive:

In der Spätbronzezeit gerät der serbische Teil des Donaugebiets unter den starken Einfluss des expandierenden Gava-Komplexes. Dieser Prozess verläuft kontinuierlich in den Nekropolen der Mittelbronzezeit der Dubovac- und der Belegiš-Gruppe. Dabei gehen die früher charakteristischen Urnenformen verloren und auch die Verzierungen ändern sich. Sowohl die für die Dubovac-Gruppe kennzeichnen-den ornamentalen Motive, die aus Stempelmustern, Riefen und Einkerbungen bestehen, als auch die Einkerbungen und unechten Schnurmuster der Belegiš-Gruppe gehen verloren. Kannelierte und feinpolierte schwarze Keramik, die für den Gava-Komplex typisch ist, wird häufig. Zu diesen Neuerungen gesellen sich zahlreiche Bronzehorte.

http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576_0x002debf2.pdf

So the authors assume a break, a real turning point in the archaeological record at the transition of the older forms, Belegiš II is a new complex under the influence of the Gáva-Holigrady source. The timing is ideal, it fits with the final split of Northern and Southern subclades of E-V13, which fall mostly in the LBA-EIA time frame.

The exact same thing happened in Bulgaria with the Fluted Ware Horizon! The same influence, the same impact, on both sides of the Carpathians and from the original centre of Gáva-Holigrady. However, in the West the transition to the fully developed Iron Age was less continuous in my opinion, which leaves the option of Belegiš-Gava being Thracian, but later assimilated.

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41123&d=1605226594
https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41123&d=1605226594

More arguments in this post:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21898-Why-is-E-V13-so-confusing&p=719409&viewfull=1#post719409

So I think that Belegiš II is key, but its origins may lie in a new input from the relative North, from what was the centre of Gáva-Holigrady. The break between Belegiš and Belegiš II-Gava might be it for the Southern Danubian zone. This is all no earlier than 1.300 BC, which is when E-V13 should drastically increase in the Serbian-Bulgarian sphere.

I might also quote from another paper:

The emergence of the channeled pottery in the larger areas of Vojvodina, on the Srem necropolis (Surcin, Belegis) in the south Banat area (Vojlovica, Opovo-Beli breg, Kovacica – Vinogradi) marks without a doubt the Late Bronze Age that lasted until the beginning of the 1st millennium BC. The more recent investigations in Romania and at sites in Vojvodina, mostly necropolis but also the settlements (Feudvar, Zidovar, Ekonomija Sava and others) suggest the need to distinguish the third phase of the Belegis culture. In this phase the elements of Gava complex like channeled garlands, oblique channels (twisting) at the junction of the upper and lower cones of urns and bowls were particularly emphasized. The occurrence of Gava elements at the Romanian sites is characteristic of the finds from great tumulus “Gramurada lui Ticu” near Susani or the necropolis “Ticvanul Mare” in Romanian Banat.

http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-0241/2003/0350-02410454023T.pdf

What I found particularly interesting is that at the end of the Bronze Age, similar stylistic elements, all coming from the Gáva-Holigrady core zone, appear from Eastern Germany (Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt), to Southern Poland, in the Western Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, Serbia, down to Bulgaria and Greece, even with offshoots into Anatolia and the Eastern Mediterranean. They cover the whole one of early E-V13 spread possible and there is so far no concentrated appearance of E-V13 anywhere before the channeled pottery.
I don't think Vatin and Belegiš (I) will be E-V13 at all, there is lot which speaks against it, though I can't exclude it without more tests. But more likely is a big push with the transition into Belegiš II-Gava, not before and this means E-V13 was indeed sitting not further South but Slovakia-very Northern Romania for a long time.

altvred
04-05-2021, 12:52 AM
KNT001 is derived for CTS2001 and several other SNPs on YFull; with a high degree of confidence, he's at least E-Y3762.

A bit of an update on KNT001, no SNPs downstream of E-CTS9320 but here are some he is negative for

https://i.imgur.com/4OXWrwy.png

We can probably rule out E-BY3890 and E-Y84585 as candidates.

Here's the full list, anything that isn't a minus sign means that the SNP has no coverage.


E-CTS9320 CTS2001+ CTS8092(?) CTS9320/V3518+ S20250+ S24009(?) S24732($) S26015+ Y125993/FT91455(?) Y3761/FGC36575(?) Y3765(?) Y37954/FGC68345(?)
┣━E-BY3890 BY3890-
┣━E-BY4526 BY4526/Z37530($)
┃ ┣━E-BY4529 Y21868/BY4529(?)
┃ ┃ ┗━E-Y20805 A10952/BY4523($) A10953/BY4524($) A10954/BY4527(?) A10955/BY4528- Y188362(?) Y20805/BY4545(?) Y21869/BY4525-
┃ ┃ ┗━E-BY4573 BY4566(?) BY4567($) BY4568($) BY4569($) BY4570($) BY4571(?) BY4572(?) BY4573($) BY4574($) BY4580($) BY4581(?) F16646(?) Y218847/FT381475(?) Y71975-
┃ ┣━E-S10743 BY103341(?) BY122684(?) S10743(?)
┃ ┗━E-Y41959 BY3890- BY4553(?) BY4554(?) BY4555($) BY4558(?) BY4559(?) BY4561- BY4562(?) BY4563(?) BY4564- FGC1425/Y9263- FT11929(?) FT12110(?) FT80670(?) Y126542(?) Y166875/FT13314- Y166876(?) Y167264/FT13232(?) Y167265(?) Y41959($)
┃ ┗━E-BY4551 BY4551(?) Y162611-
┃ ┗━E-BY4557 BY4557($)
┣━E-Y84585 A3909- A3910- BY20093- BY20094- Y101308(?) Y106891- Y107454(?) Y111532($) Y112365- Y84585(?) Y84924- Y86168(?) Y93073(?) Y96943(?) Y99902(?)
┃ ┗━E-Y103928 FGC44469($) Y103928- Y112878- Y84692(?) Y88210($) Y89542(?) Y91258- Y91603- Y92244- Y95986- Y96548(?) Y97192-
┣━E-Z16988 Y3856/Z16988($)
┃ ┣━E-BY34282 BY34282($) BY34295(?) BY34299(?) Y193397(?)
┃ ┃ ┣━E-BY50887 BY50887- FT88193(?)
┃ ┃ ┃ ┗━E-BY155704 BY155589- BY155704(?) FT89341(?)
┃ ┃ ┃ ┣━E-BY176411 BY176411- BY176470($) BY176595- BY176866(?) BY176904(?) BY177016- BY177097(?) BY177230- BY177317- BY177405(?) Y182020(?)
┃ ┃ ┃ ┗━E-Y133830 BY153053($) BY153266($) BY153593($) BY154051- BY155810($) BY193806/Y162372- BY195200/Y161661($) FT88207(?) FT88233(?) FT89249(?) FT89586(?) FT89762(?) FT89774(?) Y133830(?) Y226147(?)
┃ ┃ ┃ ┗━E-Z13591 Z13591($)
┃ ┃ ┗━E-FT12534 F14488/Z25920($) FT12534- Y183362- Y183363(?)
┃ ┃ ┗━E-Y172786 FT44630(?) Y172786-
┃ ┣━E-BY66796 BY106610(?) BY114936(?) BY117876(?) BY126254(?) BY132788(?) BY136758(?) BY137820(?) BY217271(?) BY5281(?) BY66796(?) BY73334(?) FT261752/Y195970(?) MF3571(?) Y152805(?) Y152825(?) Y152828(?)
┃ ┣━E-FT30969 BY123501(?) FT30969($)
┃ ┣━E-Z21340 BY145251(?) Y110616($) Z21340(?) Z21350(?)
┃ ┃ ┗━E-BY55359 BY104670(?) BY106988(?) BY107937($) BY111313- BY115529/V6752(?) BY123856(?) BY55359- BY64057(?) BY74766(?) BY99733(?)
┃ ┣━E-Z27131 FT156041(?) FT19186(?) Y182866/FT178306(?) Y182900/FT178305(?) Z27131-
┃ ┗━E-Z38664 Z38664-
┣━E-Z17107 BY34290(?) BY4425($) Z17107($) Z17395-
┃ ┣━E-A19247 A19247($)
┃ ┗━E-Y30991 Y30991-
┣━E-Z17264 Y6227/Z17264($)
┃ ┣━E-PH1173 BY4280(?) PH1173/BY4281($) PH2415/BY4330(?) Y126364(?)
┃ ┃ ┣━E-BY4289 BY4286(?) BY4289(?)
┃ ┃ ┣━E-BY4404 BY4404(?)
┃ ┃ ┃ ┗━E-BY4418 BY4418- BY4419-
┃ ┃ ┗━E-YP223 BY102768(?) BY104415(?) BY108119(?) BY128924(?) BY140629(?) BY68838(?) BY73854(?) BY74646(?) Y150818(?) Y151937(?) Y151941(?) Y151943(?) Y151952(?) Y151961(?) Y197423(?) Y197424(?) YP223/S17790($)
┃ ┣━E-Y21945 BY4353(?) Y19575- Y21945/BY4363($) Y21946/BY4359(?) Y21947/BY4365($) Y23079/BY4361- Y23080/BY4349(?) Y23081/BY4350(?) Y23082/BY4355($) Y23083(?) Y23084/BY4354(?) Y23085/BY4356- Y23086/BY4351($) Y23087/BY4362(?) Y23088/BY4348($) Y3132/FGC5638($)
┃ ┗━E-Z17264a
┗━E-Z25461 S19928($) Z25461-
┣━E-BY20077 BY20077- BY20078($) BY20079($) Z8343(?)
┃ ┗━E-BY20074 BY20073- BY20074(?) BY20075(?) BY20076(?) BY20080(?) BY20081(?) BY20082(?) BY20083($) BY20084($) BY20085($) BY20087- BY20088(?) BY20089($) BY20090(?) BY20091(?) BY96149(?) Y84060(?) Y88481(?)
┣━E-BY4518 BY4507(?) BY4518-
┗━E-FT79190 FT79190($) FT79653($)