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View Full Version : S38/L624 Scottish HG (Welsh Links?)



castle3
02-22-2016, 07:08 AM
The S389/L624 haplogroup has now been found in over 40 Scottish surnames. In some, the surname concerned has S389/L624 as the mainstream HG, while in others it is in the minority, or perhaps the result of an NPE etc.The HG has a north-east Scottish bias, but with hot-spots in Stirling, Argyll (nr Loch Fyne) plus Dumfries & Galloway.
Interestingly, S389/L624 falls under ZZ37, which contains S27900 - a very Welsh HG. Initially I wondered if there was something in the old myth which suggested that Cunedda, reputedly of Clackmannanshire, had settled in Wales. However, I think it likely that this was yet another case of propagandists at work trying to bolster the prowess of their ancestors. The only two S27900 testees who aren't, at the time of posting, of likely Welsh origin are via Scotland.
That said, the link to Wales needs explanation. It's been suggested that Ancient Welsh DNA most closely resembles that of the post-Ice Age settlers in Britain, so is of great interest. My current view is that Beaker Folk (metallurgists?) entered north-east Scotland, then followed the Great Glen south-west into Argyll etc. The trade route down from Argyll to Wales & Cornwall is well documented, with Cornish tin & Welsh gold found in Scottish & Irish artefacts etc. Beaker pottery was found in Llannon, Carmarthenshire which resembled that found in Ballymenach, Argyllshire. Llannon lies a few miles east of Allt Cunedda Hill, near Kidwelly. Ironically Caradoc, who is known to Welsh researchers, had a nickname which is of great interest to me as it mirrors my surname. The timescale means that this was almost certainly a coincidence!
Obviously, ancient DNA testing of Scottish remains will be vital, so the current work of bodies such as Aberdeen University etc are of great interest. In 2015, the University suggested that potential Pictish & other remains were being analysed.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-22-2016, 07:57 AM
I've come across quite a few ancient references to associations between Wales and Scotland, whether myth or not, I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was based on fact.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwie-baE8YrLAhWHzRQKHYcfBZUQFggvMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fscotland%2Fhistor y%2Farticles%2Fkingdom_of_the_britons%2F&usg=AFQjCNHk264HhUnYtuLdo-C9rGfz2wnjxQ

From an entry on "The Welsh" in Wikipedia :-
"The process whereby the indigenous population of 'Wales' came to think of themselves as Welsh is not clear. There is plenty of evidence of the use of the term Brythoniaid (Britons); by contrast, the earliest use of the word Kymry (referring not to the people but to the land—and possibly to northern Britain in addition to modern day territory of Wales) is found in a poem dated to about 633. The name of the region in northern England now known as Cumbria is derived from the same root.[39] Only gradually did Cymru (the land) and Cymry (the people) come to supplant Brython. "

castle3
02-22-2016, 08:45 AM
Tim Clarkson has written extensively on the Picts, Strathclyde Britons & other 'tribes', John. He has a fine website which, from memory, can be accessed by Googling:
Tim Clarkson Senchus
I've seen the 'Historia Brittonum' ref to Cunedda & Manaw Goddodin etc, but as I said, most see the Cunedda links as highly suspicious!
Ancient DNA from Wales would be useful. I'm not sure what projects are under way, if any, in Wales. My main focus is on Scotland, but anything under ZZ37, where S389/L624 lies, would be of interest. I gather that S27900 is found in some 2% of Welsh testees. The age of ZZ37, S389/L624 and S27900 all appear to be nearly 4,500 years old (2,500 BC). These estimates are obviously very loose & subject to change.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-22-2016, 08:58 AM
An interesting read on the Mabinogion - doesn't contribute much in the way of proof though. :)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwixm8Hx_4rLAhXKtxQKHZFpCmEQFggwMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nantlle.com%2Fmabinogi-saesneg-places-mentioned-in-the-first-branch.htm&usg=AFQjCNGVFxBa4VmDVgVUXFckobTNdg-Gzg

castle3
02-22-2016, 11:31 AM
Thanks John. I think we'll see some more accurate dating of various sub-R-P312 groups over the coming year. That'll help add weight to various theories.

castle3
02-23-2016, 09:18 AM
An interesting read on the Mabinogion - doesn't contribute much in the way of proof though. :)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwixm8Hx_4rLAhXKtxQKHZFpCmEQFggwMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nantlle.com%2Fmabinogi-saesneg-places-mentioned-in-the-first-branch.htm&usg=AFQjCNGVFxBa4VmDVgVUXFckobTNdg-Gzg

A bit off topic, but Way's 'Fabliaux of Tales' vol 1, based on a version published in 1796, states:

'Caradoc Freich-fras: from braich, an arm, and bras, thick or strong. (In the Armoric dialect brech is an arm, and bras is great).'

Oddly, 'Bras' is arm in French, while in Breton it seems to mean big or great.

Sir Bernard Burke's 'Extinct & Dormant Peerages' mentions Caradog Vreichvras and Cradoc Fraich Fras, and states that 'Fraich Fras is now known in English as Armstrong'. It also mentions connections with the Lord of Gloucester, plus later links to Brecon.

Obviously the timescale means it's extremely unlikely that the above led to the Armstrong surname appearing centuries later on the Anglo-Scottish Border, but it is intriguing to see the epithet appearing in areas where ancient, indigenous tribes flourished. Also, I thought the mention of Armorica was of interest, for obvious reasons.