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Barellalee
02-24-2016, 04:45 AM
I'm Posting this as a follow up from another Post. On my Maternal Side, there is R1b L23, from Avellino Province, Italy, with Medieval roots in the Salerno Province. Obviously further Testing would be needed, but I'm aware the money is on that they are one of the Z2103 or Z2105 Subclades. What is the current knowledge on these Branches, specifically the origins of their presence in South Italy?

Joe B
02-26-2016, 07:19 PM
R1b-Z2103 has become a rather broad subject. Many subclades have been found. There is also the possiblity of him being R1b-PF7562 (L23+, L150-, Z2103-, L51-) Please have your relative join the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) if he has not already.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background
http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?147-R1b-Z2103-Z2105
http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?51-R1b-Early-Subclades

Barellalee
03-01-2016, 08:12 AM
R1b-Z2103 has become a rather broad subject. Many subclades have been found. There is also the possiblity of him being R1b-PF7562 (L23+, L150-, Z2103-, L51-) Please have your relative join the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) if he has not already.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background
http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?147-R1b-Z2103-Z2105
http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?51-R1b-Early-Subclades

Thanks, I agree it is an interesting and complex subject. Many have told me it is due to Greek Colonization, but as we see it too widespread to be due only just to that. From Tuscany, to Umbria, to Abruzzo.

mihaitzateo
09-07-2019, 06:46 PM
Well, I was thinking to open a new thread, about R1B-L23.
Highest percentages from Europe, of R1B-L23, are found in Kosovo, if I am not wrong, where R1B-L23 makes more than 20% of the paternal lines.
Romania has also significant R1B, from East Europe, so Romania might also have R1B-L23, but I have not seen any tests till now.
From where most R1B-L23 could come?
From my point of view, most probable is SE Europe Celts.

Lancer
06-14-2020, 07:46 PM
Hello,

I too have tested confirmed R1b-L23. I am both sides Italian and a genetic newbie, But I have found public research if someone can interpret the data.

SOURCE:Advances in Anthropology 2012. Vol.2, No.2, 87-105
Published Online May 2012 in SciRes (http://www.SciRP.org/journal/aa) DOI:10.4236/aa.2012.22010


Ancient History of the Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroup R1b, from Central Asia to Europe, 16,000 to 1500 Years before Present
Anatole A. Klyosov The Academy of DNA Genealogy, Newton, USA Email: [email protected]

Relevant Discussion: Article Pages 7 -11

"Haplogroup R1b (mainly R1b1a2-L23) among Bashkirs, and in the Caucasus, Anatolia, Middle East R-L23 apparently arose on the eastern side of the Russian Plain, where Europe meets Asia, ~6200 ybp and migrated to the Caucasus and further South, to Anatolia and the Middle East. Another branch of L23 went westward, to Europe, approximately 4500 ybp. The most eastern population with the prevailing R-L23 sub
clade is the Bashkirs, a Turkic-language people who live largely on both sides of the Ural Mountains and in North Kazakhstan. Frequency of R1b haplogroup reaches 84% in the Perm Bashkirs, 81% among Baimak Bashkirs, and lower figures in other Bashkir tribes (Lobov, 2009). 29 of 10 marker haplotypes of subclade R-L23 of the Bashkirs were published (Myres et al., 2010), and their base haplotype is 12 24 14 10 X X X 12 12 13 13 30 - 10. This is a typical albeit slightly mutated L23 haplotype with its characteristic first allele DYS393 = 12. 26 haplotypes of those 29 were identical, as shown above, and the whole Bashkir L23 branch has a common ancestor who lived only 575 ± 175 ybp. However, this base haplotype differs from the European R-L23 base haplotype 12 24 14 10 X X X 12 12 13 14 29 - 11 by three mutations, which sets these two base haplotypes apart by 3/.018 = 167 → 200 conditional generations—5000 years, and places their common ancestor at 5500 ybp. Other Bashkir haplotypes belonged to R-M269 (one haplotype), R-M73 (10 haplotypes), and R-U152 (8 haplotypes). The last series of haplotypes were all identical to each other, and thus are derived from a very recent common ancestor, who certainly had a European origin [U152 arose in Europe 4125 ± 450 ybp (Klyosov, 2011b)]. We therefore see today’s reflection of ancient migrations of the Arbins westward from Central Asia, apparently from the South Siberian region, across the South Urals and further to the Russian Plain and then the Caucasus. Almost all R1b1a2 haplotypes in the Caucasus region belong to the subclade L23 (with its characteristic DYS393 = 12). In a recent paper (Balanovsky et al., 2012) 90 Caucasian haplotypes of R1b haplogroup were listed, and with exception of five R1b* haplotypes and a relatively “young” Abkhazian branch (Figure 7) 79 of 81 haplotypes (97.5%) in the dataset were of the L23 subclade (Note: the cited paper did not consider haplotype trees nor has analyzed the haplotypes in the manner presented here). The same pattern is observed with Armenian R1b haplotypes, and with most of Anatolian R1b haplotypes (Klyosov, 2010c, 2011c). The 67 marker base R-L23 haplotype, obtained from an extended haplotype dataset from the world over (tree Figure 8) is as follows: 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 - 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 17 - 11 11 19 23 16 15 17 17 36 37 12 12 - 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 (L23) The L23 base short Caucasian haplotype in Figure 7 fits exactly to the above haplotype (the matching alleles are marked in bold). A common ancestor of the L23 subclade lived ~6200 ybp (Klyosov, 2010d, 2011a). 81 Caucasian L23 haplotypes containing 425 mutations from their base haplotype, give 425/ 81/.035 = 150 → 176 conditional generations, or 4400 ± 490 years to their common ancestor. The “younger” date (compared with the “age” of L23 of about 6200 ybp) can be explained by a detailed consideration of an extended series of 107 of R-L23 haplotypes listed in the FTDNA Project (see the legend in Figure 8). The tree in Figure 8 splits into two parts. On the left are 38 haplotypes, with the base 12 24 14 11 12 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 - 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 18 - 11 11 19 23 16 16 18 17 36 37 12 12 - 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23 23 15 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 (L23, branch)
Copyright © 2012 SciRes. 93
A. A. KLYOSOV
Copyright © 2012 SciRes. 94


Figure 7. The 19-marker 90 haplotype tree for R1b haplotypes in the Caucasus (Lezghins, Ossets, Avars, Ankhaz, Circassians, Chechens, Dargins, Kaitaks). Haplotypes 1 - 5 (above on the left) represent R1b* subclade, and haplotypes 49, 57 - 59 (above on the left) represent a “young” Abkhazian branch. Haplotypes were listed in (Balanovsky et al., 2012)
On the right are 69 haplotypes, with the base 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 - 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 17 - 11 11 19 23 15 16 18 17 36 38 12 12 - 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 (L23, branch) More than 70% of haplotypes of the Armenians and Turks from the dataset belong to the second and larger branch as well as all eight Iraqis and all five Iranians in the dataset. Presence of R-L23 of the Iranians might be a result of diffusion of the subclade from Anatolia eastward, or the migration of the Arbins might have been southward from the Russian Plain east of the Caspian Sea. Both branches descended from their ancestral R-L23 base haplotype, and are parted by 9 mutations (marked in bold). These 9 mutations are accumulated over 9/.12 = 75 → 81 conditional generations, or 2025 “lateral” years. The first branch split 4600 ± 490 ybp; the second, 4200 ± 440 ybp. Therefore, their common ancestor lived (4600 + 4200 + 2025)/2 = 5400 ± 800 ybp. This fits within margin of error to the time when a common ancestor of the subclade R-L23 lived (~6200 ybp). Extended, 111 marker haplotypes available for the same data- set, and for the smaller branch the base haplotype is as follows: 12 24 14 11 12 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 - 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 18 - 11 11 19 23 16 16 18 17 36 37 12 12 - 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23 23 15 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 - 36 15 9 15 12 25 26
19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 10 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 19 15 19 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 11 11 (L23, branch) It differs by 16 mutations from that of the larger branch (7 mutations added by the 68 - 111 extension), which separates the branches by 16/.198 = 82 → 90 generations, or 2250 years, and the R-L23 common ancestor lived (4600 + 4200 + 2250)/2 = 5525 ± 700 years—similar to 5400 ± 800 ybp, obtained above, and illustrates the consistency of calculations. It seems that the Caucasian R-L23 haplotypes with their common ancestor of 4400 ± 490 years belong to one of the branches in the tree in Figure 8. A much smaller Caucasian R1b dataset, analyzed earlier (Klyosov, 2008a) resulted with similar times—4650 ± 700 ybp, as the recent, larger dataset of short haplotypes (Balanovsky et al., 2012). The Caucasian R-L23 haplotypes may have experienced a population bottleneck around 5000 ybp. 120 of 17 marker Armenian haplotypes were published recently in (Herrera et al., 2011). A haplotype tree, composed from those haplotypes, is shown in Figure 9. It consists of three approximately equal (by number, or by “weight”) branches. Five haplotypes of the M269 mini-branch are nearly equal to each other, evidencing only two mutations among their 85 alleles. Their common ancestor was 300 ± 210 ybp. The balance of 115 haplotypes of L23 subclade, have 784 mutations from their base haplotype 12 24 14 11 11 14 X X 13 13 13 29 - 17 15 19 12 15 12 23 (the right-hand side of the haplotype correponds to DYS 458, 437, 448, GATA H4, DYS 456, 438, 635).

Lancer
06-14-2020, 08:08 PM
mihaitzateo,

You might want to see my new Rib-L23 posting.

Lancer

rms2
06-15-2020, 05:26 PM
Ancient dna has thoroughly refuted Klyosov's "Arbin" stuff, specifically his claim that R1b represents Turkic Tengri worshipers, etc. Klyosov totally made up the term "Arbin" from the sound of AR-ONE-B, in the same way a few years ago some other clowns had designated anyone who belonged to y haplogroup R1a as the "Ar1ans".

There is a certain type of individual who still believes that modern y-haplogroup distribution and various machinations with modern STR haplotypes hold the key to the origins of y-dna haplogroups. That flew all over the place back ten years ago or so, before the revolution in ancient dna testing. Now it's anachronistic, and most of what was done with it, like Klyosov's work, has been discredited.

BTW, you need some SNP testing, because L23 is pretty far up the R1b tree, and there is no way you, as a modern man, have a terminal SNP of L23.

rms2
06-15-2020, 05:51 PM
Ancient dna has thoroughly refuted Klyosov's "Arbin" stuff, specifically his claim that R1b represents Turkic Tengri worshipers, etc. Klyosov totally made up the term "Arbin" from the sound of AR-ONE-B . . .


I hope nobody minds, but I want to discuss briefly my ideas on just how Klyosov came up with his invented term "Arbins". Since he used it to mean R1b, it's pretty obviously based on that. He probably began with the idea to call us the Ar1bs or "Aribs", but realized that looks and sounds in English too much like "Arabs". For a similar reason, he rejected Ar1bins, because it looks and sounds too much like "Arabians".

So Klyosov moved the digit, like this - Rb1 - and added an n to come up with "Arb1ns" or Arbins.

He had to add the n at the end, otherwise his name for our haplogroup would have sounded like the name of an American fast food restaurant chain: Arby's.

Just my guesswork. It doesn't really matter: "Arbins" never caught on and has gone into the dustbin of useless terms.

Lancer
06-15-2020, 09:43 PM
rms2,

I appreciate the input. Does your evaluation of the questionable Arbins term discount the reasoning that R1b-L23 arose in the Caucasus region as per Klyosov's timeline?

rms2
06-15-2020, 11:21 PM
rms2,

I appreciate the input. Does your evaluation of the questionable Arbins term discount the reasoning that R1b-L23 arose in the Caucasus region as per Klyosov's timeline?

Well, the oldest L23 we have comes from the Samara area in what is now Russia. I think it probably arose on the steppe.

Who did you test with to get your L23 result?

Coldmountains
06-16-2020, 01:24 AM
Ancient dna has thoroughly refuted Klyosov's "Arbin" stuff, specifically his claim that R1b represents Turkic Tengri worshipers, etc. Klyosov totally made up the term "Arbin" from the sound of AR-ONE-B, in the same way a few years ago some other clowns had designated anyone who belonged to y haplogroup R1a as the "Ar1ans".

There is a certain type of individual who still believes that modern y-haplogroup distribution and various machinations with modern STR haplotypes hold the key to the origins of y-dna haplogroups. That flew all over the place back ten years ago or so, before the revolution in ancient dna testing. Now it's anachronistic, and most of what was done with it, like Klyosov's work, has been discredited.

BTW, you need some SNP testing, because L23 is pretty far up the R1b tree, and there is no way you, as a modern man, have a terminal SNP of L23.

Just yesterday i read on VK a post on his group about how modern day Russian Balto-Slavic clades are from Fatyanovo and that Fatyanovo was Baltic and Slavic. Again the only argument for this is modern distribution of R1a clades and the historical presence of Balts in Central-West Russia slightly before Slavs. But there are almost more than 2000 years between Fatyanovo and Balto-Slavs in the region and it was already many years ago shown that most Central Russian R1a clades arrived very recently from the southwest with early Slavs.

If the rumours are correct than around 1-5% Fatyanovo Y-dna survived in the region in the most optimistic case and mostly ended in places far away in the east and west. But this is not so surprising based on the fact how mobile Fatyanovo was.

Generalissimo
06-16-2020, 10:41 AM
Just yesterday i read on VK a post on his group about how modern day Russian Balto-Slavic clades are from Fatyanovo and that Fatyanovo was Baltic and Slavic. Again the only argument for this is modern distribution of R1a clades and the historical presence of Balts in Central-West Russia slightly before Slavs. But there are almost more than 2000 years between Fatyanovo and Balto-Slavs in the region and it was already many years ago shown that most Central Russian R1a clades arrived very recently from the southwest with early Slavs.

If the rumours are correct than around 1-5% Fatyanovo Y-dna survived in the region in the most optimistic case and mostly ended in places far away in the east and west. But this is not so surprising based on the fact how mobile Fatyanovo was.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/06/like-three-peas-in-pod.html

Lancer
06-16-2020, 03:38 PM
Testing: Nat. Geo 2.0 and separately FTDNA, confirmed again by Ancestry. Getting results soon from YSEQ. Interested in helping me interpret for SNP testing if needed?
BTW, Klyosov's genetic credentials are outstanding as per the blurb in the journal's article. INMHO, the issue of the name is meaningless in view of the studies testing/findings.

Regards,

rms2
06-17-2020, 01:20 PM
Testing: Nat. Geo 2.0 and separately FTDNA, confirmed again by Ancestry. Getting results soon from YSEQ. Interested in helping me interpret for SNP testing if needed?
BTW, Klyosov's genetic credentials are outstanding as per the blurb in the journal's article. INMHO, the issue of the name is meaningless in view of the studies testing/findings.

Regards,

I'll help if I can.

Klyosov is a smart guy with great credentials, but, like I said, ancient dna has proven that he too is capable of making mistakes, which he did, copiously.

His "Arbin" Turkic Tengri worshiper stuff has a Twilight Zone/Area 51 feel to it, besides being as wrong as drought.

rms2
06-17-2020, 01:58 PM
BTW, does anyone here besides me remember the idea that R1b came from Central Asia, went into the Near East, crossed over to Africa, traveled along the North African littoral, and finally entered Europe via Iberia, spreading to the rest of Europe out of Iberia via the Bell Beaker culture?

That was the hypothesis of that same impeccably-credentialed guy.

Olalde et al was the death knell for all that.

JoeyP37
06-17-2020, 05:34 PM
I thought Arbin was fun but in that it had something to do with Basques. My fondness for Ar1an has to do with one, I am one, and two, there is a R1a-CTS6 Ashkenazi Levite line making them Aryans while Hitler, who was E1b, was not. Very amusing to me.

rms2
06-17-2020, 06:49 PM
As I recall, and my memory could be hazy on this, Klyosov did predict before the fact that Yamnaya would be primarily R1b, but he tagged Yamnaya as Turkic.

Lancer
06-24-2020, 07:10 PM
CONCLUSION
Our findings reveal that the early spread of Yamnaya Bronze Age pastoralists had limited genetic impact in Anatolia as well as Central and South Asia. As such, the Asian story of Early Bronze Age expansions differs from that of Europe. Intriguingly, we find that direct descendants of Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherers of Central Asia, now extinct as a separate lineage, survived well into the Bronze Age. These groups likely engaged in early horse domestication as a prey-route transition from hunting to herding, as otherwise seen for reindeer. Our findings further suggest that West Eurasian ancestry entered South Asia before and after, rather than during, the initial expansion of western steppe pastoralists, with the later event consistent with a Late Bronze Age entry of IE languages into South Asia. Finally, the lack of steppe ancestry in samples from Anatolia indicates that the spread of the earliest branch of IE languages into that region was not associated with a major population migration from the steppe.




https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6396/eaar7711#:~:text=The%20Yamnaya%20expansions%20from %20the,languages%20and%20possibly%20horse%20husban dry.&text=Thus%2C%20in%20contrast%20to%20Europe,direct% 20genetic%20impact%20in%20Asia.

Lancer
06-28-2020, 07:02 PM
Well, the oldest L23 we have comes from the Samara area in what is now Russia. I think it probably arose on the steppe.

Who did you test with to get your L23 result?

rms,

I have some early STR results, but have no idea what they mean regarding migrations. Can you say?

PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
Value 12 12 19-23 16 15 17 17 37-38 12 12

rms2
06-28-2020, 11:03 PM
rms,

I have some early STR results, but have no idea what they mean regarding migrations. Can you say?

PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
Value 12 12 19-23 16 15 17 17 37-38 12 12

Can't say much except that they look pretty typical for someone who is R1b-Z2103. Hard to do much with 12 markers.

Lancer
06-29-2020, 03:18 PM
Can't say much except that they look pretty typical for someone who is R1b-Z2103. Hard to do much with 12 markers.

Thanks, but I'm testing R1b-CTS 9219. What are these panels then? On this run I tested 37 markers

Kelmendasi
06-29-2020, 04:00 PM
Thanks, but I'm testing R1b-CTS 9219. What are these panels then? On this run I tested 37 markers
Could you post your Y-37 STRs please?

Edit: Are you kit 211020 in FTDNA?

Lancer
06-29-2020, 06:00 PM
As a novice, I'm not really sure what this article is implying to my Italian search via the Steppes, but it seems to be both relevant and important.


https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/maros-shows-yamnaya-derived-east-bbc-ancestry-and-local-admixture/

JoeyP37
06-29-2020, 06:17 PM
Ah, but that is from a crackpot site run by a man prejudiced against Eastern Europeans and motivated to show that they are simple Uralic hunter-gatherers who were Indo-Europeanized (and civilized by extension) by the Bell Beakers of Western Europe. Has fondness for Florin Curta's negationist theorems on Slavic ethnogenesis (i.e. Slavs didn't exist until the Avar era and are a grab bag of ancient ethnicities knit together by the koine lingua franca now known as Early Slavic), which reinforces my beliefs in his prejudice against Slavs.

ADW_1981
06-29-2020, 06:38 PM
Ah, but that is from a crackpot site run by a man prejudiced against Eastern Europeans and motivated to show that they are simple Uralic hunter-gatherers who were Indo-Europeanized (and civilized by extension) by the Bell Beakers of Western Europe. Has fondness for Florin Curta's negationist theorems on Slavic ethnogenesis (i.e. Slavs didn't exist until the Avar era and are a grab bag of ancient ethnicities knit together by the koine lingua franca now known as Early Slavic), which reinforces my beliefs in his prejudice against Slavs.

So kind of like "Archi" on Eurogenes, but going the opposite direction. On maligned, one tolerated for some bizarre reason.

Lancer
06-29-2020, 07:10 PM
Could you post your Y-37 STRs please?

Edit: Are you kit 211020 in FTDNA?

Above, not my kit. But here are my Y-37

PANEL 1 (1-12)
Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 ** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II ***
Value 12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 31
PANEL 2 (13-25)
Marker DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
Value 16 8-10 11 11 24 15 19 31 14-15-16-18
PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
Value 12 12 19-23 16 15 17 17 37-38 12 12

Cascio
06-29-2020, 07:17 PM
So kind of like "Archi" on Eurogenes, but going the opposite direction. On maligned, one tolerated for some bizarre reason.

Why is "Archi" tolerated?
He's a disruptive influence. A bot?

rms2
06-29-2020, 07:49 PM
Thanks, but I'm testing R1b-CTS 9219. What are these panels then? On this run I tested 37 markers

CTS9219 is downstream of Z2103, so you're also Z2103+.

CTS9219 (https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnapedigree.asp?RecordID=32662)

ADW_1981
06-29-2020, 11:14 PM
Why is "Archi" tolerated?
He's a disruptive influence. A bot?

Good question, some sort of Russian or Ukrainian bot.

Lancer
08-27-2020, 02:26 PM
From around 4,000 to 2,000 BC the forest-steppe northwestern Pontic region was occupied by people who shared a nomadic lifestyle, pastoral economy and barrow burial rituals. It has been shown that these groups, especially those associated with the Yamnaya culture, played an important role in shaping the gene pool of Bronze Age Europeans, which extends into present-day patterns of genetic variation in Europe. Although the genetic impact of these migrations from the forest-steppe Pontic region into central Europe have previously been addressed in several studies, the contribution of mitochondrial lineages to the people associated with the Corded Ware culture in the eastern part of the North European Plain remains contentious. In this study, we present mitochondrial genomes from 23 Late Eneolithic and Bronze Age individuals, including representatives of the northwestern Pontic region and the Corded Ware culture from the eastern part of the North European Plain. We identified, for the first time in ancient populations, the rare mitochondrial haplogroup X4 in two Bronze Age Catacomb culture-associated individuals. Genetic similarity analyses show close maternal genetic affinities between populations associated with both eastern and Baltic Corded Ware culture, and the Yamnaya horizon, in contrast to larger genetic differentiation between populations associated with western Corded Ware culture and the Yamnaya horizon. This indicates that females with steppe ancestry contributed to the formation of populations associated with the eastern Corded Ware culture while more local people, likely of Neolithic farmer ancestry, contributed to the formation of populations associated with western Corded Ware culture. The forest-steppe northwestern Pontic region of the middle Dniester and Prut interfluve was a place of contact and exchange routes between human populations inhabiting the drainages of the Black and Baltic Seas from around 4,000 to 2,000 BC 1. During this time, the region was occupied by forest-steppe populations attributed to Published: xx xx xxxx OPEN

Silesian
08-29-2020, 11:08 AM
From around 4,000 to 2,000 BC the forest-steppe northwestern Pontic region was occupied by people who shared a nomadic lifestyle, pastoral economy and barrow burial rituals. It has been shown that these groups, especially those associated with the Yamnaya culture, played an important role in shaping the gene pool of Bronze Age Europeans, which extends into present-day patterns of genetic variation in Europe. Although the genetic impact of these migrations from the forest-steppe Pontic region into central Europe have previously been addressed in several studies, the contribution of mitochondrial lineages to the people associated with the Corded Ware culture in the eastern part of the North European Plain remains contentious. In this study, we present mitochondrial genomes from 23 Late Eneolithic and Bronze Age individuals, including representatives of the northwestern Pontic region and the Corded Ware culture from the eastern part of the North European Plain. We identified, for the first time in ancient populations, the rare mitochondrial haplogroup X4 in two Bronze Age Catacomb culture-associated individuals. Genetic similarity analyses show close maternal genetic affinities between populations associated with both eastern and Baltic Corded Ware culture, and the Yamnaya horizon, in contrast to larger genetic differentiation between populations associated with western Corded Ware culture and the Yamnaya horizon. This indicates that females with steppe ancestry contributed to the formation of populations associated with the eastern Corded Ware culture while more local people, likely of Neolithic farmer ancestry, contributed to the formation of populations associated with western Corded Ware culture. The forest-steppe northwestern Pontic region of the middle Dniester and Prut interfluve was a place of contact and exchange routes between human populations inhabiting the drainages of the Black and Baltic Seas from around 4,000 to 2,000 BC 1. During this time, the region was occupied by forest-steppe populations attributed to Published: xx xx xxxx OPEN

Ever notice the overlay and continuity of Yamnaya R1b-L23>Z2109+ burials that contain,
wagons and or horses,battle axe/bow- horse-oxen-<European turtle geography ?> stelae< Kernosovskiy stelae>, precious metal silver<white> ornaments, <like hair rings>

Hittite: ������ (ḫarkiš), ������ (ḫarkaiš, “white, bright”)Tocharian: *ārkw(ä)i (“white”)[6]
Tocharian A: ārki
Tocharian B: ārkwi
Sanskrit: अर्जुन (árjuna)and the spread of basal <phylogeny > Yersinia pestis ?

Lancer
09-08-2020, 05:03 PM
A very interesting evaluation of the R1b-Z2103 variant occurrence. A study, though unfortunately dated, utilizing STR DYS analysis. Study data via Ancestry.com.

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/genealogy/haplo_r1b_ht35_analysis.htm

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/genealogy/haplo_r1b_ht35_analysis.htm#ht35_one

rms2
09-11-2020, 09:02 PM
"Dated" is the operative term. Being a bit dated myself, I remember all the "Ht35" vs "Ht15" stuff. Turned out to be useless. Both represent brother clades under L23 and aren't as fundamentally separate and distant as once thought. SNPs, the resultant phylogenetic tree, and ancient dna results are much better indicators than all the old mumbo-jumbo and speculation with STR haplotypes.

Lancer
09-12-2020, 02:10 PM
Hi,
Agree. See my posting under Z2103.

rms2
09-12-2020, 04:19 PM
My memory may be a little hazy, but as I recall one of the reasons for pushing an alleged big distinction between "Ht35" and "Ht15" was because the existence of Ht35 threw a monkey wrench into the then-popular belief that R1b spent the LGM in the Franco-Cantabrian Refuge and only emerged from there as the ice began to recede and the weather improved and warmed.

The defenders of that old chestnut had to try to make "Ht35" out as if it was almost not R1b and not at all closely related to "Ht15".

Bogus.

Silesian
09-15-2020, 12:45 PM
Yfull dates for L23+ ancestor to L51+ and Z2103+ and relative dates for cultures, Afanasievo for example both are found L51 and Z2103+ 5300 YBP+/-

R-L23 PF6404 * L478/PF6403 * MF36433/L23/S141/PF6534formed 6400 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybpinfo

R-L51 PF6414 * PF6535 * CTS10373/PF6537/FGC39+1 SNPsformed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybpinfo

R-Z2103 S20902/Z8130 * Z2104/PF7575 * Z2107/CTS7340+4 SNPsformed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 5400 ybpinfo

Yamna culture, Pit Grave-Dates c. 3300–2600 BC
Bell Beaker culture Dates c. 2800–1800 BC
Afanasievo culture Dates 3300 BCE — 2500 BCE

Lancer
09-20-2020, 03:17 PM
These are maps of modern distribution of haplogroup R1b-M269 and its main subclades, using natural neighbour interpolation.

The expansion of extant R1b-M269 subclades was most likely associated originally with the expansion of Proto-Indo-Europeans.






https://indo-european.eu/y-dna-and-mtdna-maps/haplogroup-r1b-m269/