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Agamemnon
02-24-2016, 08:52 PM
The rapid Arab-Islamic conquest during the early Middle Ages led to major political and cultural changes in the Mediterranean world. Although the early medieval Muslim presence in the Iberian Peninsula is now well documented, based in the evaluation of archeological and historical sources, the Muslim expansion in the area north of the Pyrenees has only been documented so far through textual sources or rare archaeological data. Our study provides the first archaeo-anthropological testimony of the Muslim establishment in South of France through the multidisciplinary analysis of three graves excavated at Nimes. First, we argue in favor of burials that followed Islamic rites and then note the presence of a community practicing Muslim traditions in Nimes. Second, the radiometric dates obtained from all three human skeletons (between the 7th and the 9th centuries AD) echo historical sources documenting an early Muslim presence in southern Gaul (i.e., the first half of 8th century AD). Finally, palaeogenomic analyses conducted on the human remains provide arguments in favor of a North African ancestry of the three individuals, at least considering the paternal lineages. Given all of these data, we propose that the skeletons from the Nimes burials belonged to Berbers integrated into the Umayyad army during the Arab expansion in North Africa. Our discovery not only discusses the first anthropological and genetic data concerning the Muslim occupation of the Visigothic territory of Septimania but also highlights the complexity of the relationship between the two communities during this period.

[...]

Paleogenetic and palaeogenomic analyses were conducted on the three Nimes individuals to better understand their bio-geographical origin. To date, only one publication has described the mitochondrial lineage of medieval human remains originating from archeological sites in al-Andalus [11]. These samples date from the 12th-13th centuries AD and, as such, provide a snapshot of the local population gene pool several centuries after the establishment of Muslim domination over the Iberian Peninsula. Thus, the genetic analysis of the Nimes human remains provided a unique opportunity to identify the genetic lineage carried by the individuals associated with the initial part of the Muslim conquest in Western Europe. Using a specific capture of mitochondrial genomes and more than 450 Y chromosome SNPs (Y-SNPs; see S2 File for analyses details), we managed to characterize the complete mitogenomes from all three individuals as well as partial Y-SNPs profiles (S3 Fig, and S3 Table). These results were completely consistent with the classical analyses initially conducted on the human remains (mtDNA and Y-chromosome SNPs analyses, and sequencing of HVR-1; S4 Table) and identified three distinct mtDNA haplotypes: L1c3a for SP7080, which is typically found in African populations; K1a4a for SP7089 and H1 for SP9262, which are more widely distributed across different regions in Europe and Asia but also occur in Africa (Fig 4). The current distribution of these mitochondrial haplotypes is presented as supporting information (S4 Fig). Even if the capture and enrichment of Y-SNPs was less effective, they indicated the presence of the same typical North African haplotype E1b1b1b-M81 [12, 44] in all three males’ DNA samples (S3 Table). It is worth noting that the E-M81 lineage is particularly well-represented among the North African Berber communities, with frequencies up to 70% [45–46] (Fig 4). The significant presence of this haplogroup outside North Africa—i.e., in extant populations of Iberia, Italy and Sicily (S4 Fig)—relates directly to the long-term Arab rule in these regions [46]. If the paternal lineage E-M81 and the maternal lineage L1c3 characterized implies with a high degree of probability a North African origin for all Nimes individuals, we have to note that the large distribution of mtDNA lineages H1 and K (both in North Africa and Europe) do not permit to drive any clear conclusion concerning individuals' maternal ancestry. Indeed, the determination of these maternal lineages on Nimes burials may be both the result of a direct North African maternal origin and the result of admixture between migrating Muslims and local European women. If the low discriminatory power of mtDNA does not permit us to decide between both hypotheses, genome-wide data may permit to precise individuals' ancestries in the next future. Nevertheless, if admixture between Muslims and European women is well established for later al-Andalus periods (genetically established for sites in Andalusia dating to the 12th-13th centuries; [11]), such admixture had not been raised so far for the very first Muslim groups arriving in Europe. If admixture with local women was confirmed concerning Nimes individuals, these data would constitute the most ancient evidence of admixture in the al-Andalus context.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0148583.g004

Source: Gleize et al. 2016 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0148583)

Too bad they didn't get autosomal DNA out of these samples, a more thorough analysis of the specific branches under M81 would've been quite helpful as well. IMO this certainly suggests that the Muslim conquests could account in part for the presence of E-M81 in the Iberian Peninsula, France and Southern Italy. However, it's equally plausible that much of the E-M81 found in the aforementioned areas made its way to Western Europe with the Romans and Carthaginians.

drobbah
02-24-2016, 09:17 PM
How common is mtdna K1a and H in the Maghreb?

Agamemnon
02-24-2016, 09:28 PM
How common is mtdna K1a and H in the Maghreb?

K1a4a doesn't seem particularly common in North Africa nowadays, in fact that counts for mtDNA haplogroup K as a whole. Haplogroup H1 should be far more common though, H was found in several Ibero-Maurusian samples from Taforalt (Morocco) IIRC.

Odyss
02-24-2016, 09:29 PM
After Queen Kahina's redition , pagan Berbers largely and quickly converted to Islam which merged into their tribal society somewhat. Christian Berbers of coastal Algeria & Tunisia remained Christian for a longer period untill the Almohade uprising ( some ofTunisia Christians notably migranted to Sicily In the 12th century).

Tariq Ibn Zyad who made the conquest of Iberia for Ummeyads was definitely a Berber/Amazigh from Tlemcen ( but I heard Chaoui from the Aures too) , he recruted his soldiers amongst ex-Queen Kahina loyal tribes of Algeria and among the Ghomaras of North Morocco (ancestors of the Riffians).

Agamemnon
02-24-2016, 09:30 PM
After Queen Kahina's redition , pagan Berbers largely and quickly converted to Islam which suited their tribal society pretty well. Christian Berbers of coastal Algeria & Tunisia remained Christian for a longer period untill the Almohade uprising ( some ofTunisia Christians notably migranted to Sicily In the 12th century).

Tariq Ibn Zyad who made the conquestof Ibetia was defnietely a Berber/Amazigh from Tlemcen ( but I heard Chaoui from the Aures as well) , he recruted his soldiers amongst ex-Queen Kahina loyal tribes of Algeria and among the Ghomaras of North Morocco (ancestors of the Riffians).

That's also what I heard.

John Doe
02-24-2016, 09:46 PM
Couldn't have been civilians, the Ummayads weren't there long enough to actually create civilian Muslim life north of the Pyranees. Probably soldiers in the Umayyad army who were KIA and buried near their place of death.

kingjohn
02-24-2016, 10:04 PM
i talled you guys that e- m81 was big part in the wrstern conquest the leaders and brain were j1 but they needed the arm of e-81 berbers.
by the way i think the presence of
E-m81 in cantabaria is much older iron age probably.
regards
and thanks for the link
adam

RCO
02-24-2016, 10:33 PM
Interesting article. We can observe the high frequency of mtDNA H1 in Northwestern Africa. Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup H structure in North Africa - "Like the Iberian Peninsula, the dominant mtDNA haplogroup H subgroups in North Africa are H1 (42%) " http://bmcgenet.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2156-10-8
E1b1b1b - M81 formed 14200 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp
http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M81/
A very big growth in 2000 years only, so a very fast expansion.

Agamemnon
02-24-2016, 10:46 PM
Interesting article. We can observe the high frequency of mtDNA H1 in Northwestern Africa. Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup H structure in North Africa - "Like the Iberian Peninsula, the dominant mtDNA haplogroup H subgroups in North Africa are H1 (42%) " http://bmcgenet.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2156-10-8
E1b1b1b - M81 formed 14200 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp
http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M81/
A very big growth in 2000 years only, so a very fast expansion.

Indeed, and there's much to bet that E-M81's emergence correlates with the breakup of Proto-Berber around the same time.

ADW_1981
02-24-2016, 10:55 PM
Source:

Too bad they didn't get autosomal DNA out of these samples, a more thorough analysis of the specific branches under M81 would've been quite helpful as well. IMO this certainly suggests that the Muslim conquests could account in part for the presence of E-M81 in the Iberian Peninsula, France and Southern Italy. However, it's equally plausible that much of the E-M81 found in the aforementioned areas made its way to Western Europe with the Romans and Carthaginians.

I only briefly skimmed the summary, but doesn't it suggest the rites as being Muslim? In other words, these weren't local but foreign men..at least within a few generations. add: I suppose could be local conversions but I think that's a less likely scenario.

lgmayka
02-24-2016, 11:07 PM
I suppose could be local conversions but I think that's a less likely scenario.
One or more could be the child of a Muslim soldier and a local woman. Islamic law permits sexual relations with a female slave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery#Sexual_intercourse).

Agamemnon
02-24-2016, 11:57 PM
I only briefly skimmed the summary, but doesn't it suggest the rites as being Muslim? In other words, these weren't local but foreign men..at least within a few generations. add: I suppose could be local conversions but I think that's a less likely scenario.

These guys undeniably were soldiers in the Ummayad army. As far as K1a4a goes, this lineage might be local, it is technically possible for a muslim man to take a non-muslim wife as long as she comes from the "People of the Book" (Ahl el Kitab), alternatively we could invoke female captives in this case (the famous malikat el yamin).

Lank
02-25-2016, 04:00 PM
Indeed, and there's much to bet that E-M81's emergence correlates with the breakup of Proto-Berber around the same time.
The question then is if the ancestor of M81 (YFull dates the TMRCA of L19 to 14 kya) is responsible for the spread of pre-proto-Berber, which spread to NW Africa long before the common ancestor of modern Berber languages.

I found this SNP phylogeny (http://l19project.com/forum/download/file.php?id=276&sid=11b6e7f808bf4b8e777c2ae05a814fad&mode=view) in the L19 project, aligned with a timeline here (http://l19project.com/forum/download/file.php?id=238&sid=11b6e7f808bf4b8e777c2ae05a814fad&mode=view). Interestingly, the most divergent branches are found in Gambia, as well as a Barbadian (probably from a recent West African ancestor). It seems most parsimonious that these divergent lineages would have spread south from North Africa in ancient times, which could support a very ancient presence of E-L19 in North Africa. It might be associated with the Mesolithic Capsian culture, which some have associated with the spread of Afroasiatic speakers to the Maghreb.

Megalophias
02-25-2016, 05:05 PM
E1b1b1b - M81 formed 14200 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp
http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M81/
A very big growth in 2000 years only, so a very fast expansion.
That is actually the TMRCA of M183, the main subclade of M81. M81 itself must be older, though perhaps only slightly.

Agamemnon
02-25-2016, 06:27 PM
The question then is if the ancestor of M81 (YFull dates the TMRCA of L19 to 14 kya) is responsible for the spread of pre-proto-Berber, which spread to NW Africa long before the common ancestor of modern Berber languages.

I found this SNP phylogeny (http://l19project.com/forum/download/file.php?id=276&sid=11b6e7f808bf4b8e777c2ae05a814fad&mode=view) in the L19 project, aligned with a timeline here (http://l19project.com/forum/download/file.php?id=238&sid=11b6e7f808bf4b8e777c2ae05a814fad&mode=view). Interestingly, the most divergent branches are found in Gambia, as well as a Barbadian (probably from a recent West African ancestor). It seems most parsimonious that these divergent lineages would have spread south from North Africa in ancient times, which could support a very ancient presence of E-L19 in North Africa. It might be associated with the Mesolithic Capsian culture, which some have associated with the spread of Afroasiatic speakers to the Maghreb.

As far as I can tell, the pattern we're seeing here (a very long period of relative isolation followed by a late expansion) is congruent with the prehistory of Berber and its subsequent language leveling process. My current understanding of AA phylogeny stands as such: Omotic is the most basal split, the next part of the AA family to break away from the core was the Cushitic-Semitic-Berber node, in turn the first to branch off this node was Cushitic, then Semitic and finally Berber. Libyco-Berber is, by far, phylogenetically closer Semitic, if we had the adequate data at our disposal I'm quite certain we'd end up accepting the validity of a Libyco-Semitic branch under the aforementioned Cushitic-Semitic-Berber node. So the underlying statement here is that while the pre-Proto-Cushitic and pre-Proto-Semitic speakers were foragers (little to no doubt about this really), the pre-Proto-Berbers were an isolated fishing (also possibly grain collecting and foraging) community which adopted pastoralism and spread out as nomadic pastoralists unlike the pre-Proto-Cushites and the pre-Proto-Semites who undoubtedly roamed about as foragers.

The logical conclusion is that the Capsian culture is inadequately ancient (Mesolithic) and might not have anything to do with the pre-Proto-Berbers. IMHO L19 was one out of several E-M35.1 lineages - of about the same age - carried by the earliest AA speakers, which is too early for anything remotely Berber, that being said the fact that its basal branches were found in a Gambian and a Barbadian individual does suggest a long presence of this lineage in North Africa, so I could be wrong of course. If so, we'd have to push PAA unity back to ~18,500 yBP instead of ~13,000 yBP which I feel is the most accurate timeframe here. Not exactly likely, but still possible nonetheless.

kingjohn
02-25-2016, 07:14 PM
the big question after those nimes bodies
are the distrebution of E-M81 in france is correlated with muslem conquest ??????
or it is more ancient ???? {roman , iron age}
auvergene in france is 5% e-m81 they could be descendnets of muslim soldiers .
but this will not explain e-m81 in 4% in lille far north of france.
we are still wallking in the dark about the spread of this haplogroup E-m81
regards
adam

Helgenes50
02-25-2016, 07:19 PM
the big question after those nimes bodies
are the distrebution of E-M81 in france is correlated with muslem conquest ??????
or it is more ancient ???? {roman , iron age}
auvergene in france is 5% e-m81 they could be descendnets of muslim soldiers .
but this will not explain e-m81 in 4% in lille far north of france.
we are still wallking in the dark about the spread of this haplogroup E-m81
regards
adam

In Lille, E-M81 is probably of Spanish origin.
Nothing to see with the Islamic conquest.

Lank
02-25-2016, 07:26 PM
As far as I can tell, the pattern we're seeing here (a very long period of relative isolation followed by a late expansion) is congruent with the prehistory of Berber and its subsequent language leveling process. My current understanding of AA phylogeny stands as such: Omotic is the most basal split, the next part of the AA family to break away from the core was the Cushitic-Semitic-Berber node, in turn the first to branch off this node was Cushitic, then Semitic and finally Berber. Libyco-Berber is, by far, phylogenetically closer Semitic, if we had the adequate data at our disposal I'm quite certain we'd end up accepting the validity of a Libyco-Semitic branch under the aforementioned Cushitic-Semitic-Berber node. So the underlying statement here is that while the pre-Proto-Cushitic and pre-Proto-Semitic speakers were foragers (little to no doubt about this really), the pre-Proto-Berbers were an isolated fishing (also possibly grain collecting and foraging) community which adopted pastoralism and spread out as nomadic pastoralists unlike the pre-Proto-Cushites and the pre-Proto-Semites who undoubtedly roamed about as foragers.
Thanks for elaborating!

Do you have a source about the subsistence patterns of the pre-proto branches? I would be interested in reading and learning more about it. And where does Chadic fit into all of this?


The logical conclusion is that the Capsian culture is inadequately ancient (Mesolithic) and might not have anything to do with the pre-Proto-Berbers. IMHO L19 was one out of several E-M35.1 lineages - of about the same age - carried by the earliest AA speakers, which is too early for anything remotely Berber, that being said the fact that its basal branches were found in a Gambian and a Barbadian individual does suggest a long presence of this lineage in North Africa, so I could be wrong of course. If so, we'd have to push PAA unity back to ~18,500 yBP instead of ~13,000 yBP which I feel is the most accurate timeframe here. Not exactly likely, but still possible nonetheless.
Yeah, M35's TMRCA is about 25 kya which is clearly way too old for PAA. M35 is most diverse in North Africa, so there should have been various M35 branches (and L19 dated to ~14 kya, may be one of them) in North Africa at the time of PAA's dispersals. If so, something downstream of L19, may be responsible for pre-proto-Berber. Other possible candidates are M78 (V65?), maybe even J1 (we desperately need high resolution testing of Afroasiatic J1 lineages). But of course, this is all very speculative for now.

Agamemnon
02-25-2016, 09:54 PM
Thanks for elaborating!

Do you have a source about the subsistence patterns of the pre-proto branches? I would be interested in reading and learning more about it. And where does Chadic fit into all of this?

Much of the sources relate to pre-Proto-Semitic biradical roots, for instance there's Bernice Varjick Hecker's 2007 paper on The Biradical Origin of Semitic Roots (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/etd/d/2007/heckerb18583/heckerb18583.pdf) and Agmon & Bloch's Statistical analysis of the morphology of Semitic roots (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0083780) though I vehemently take issue with the Nostraticist tone of these works (as well as Agmon & Bloch's subtle hint towards the Natufians being the PAAs). On Berber, Roger Blench's work and articles on the language leveling process which occured are some of the best available, despite his tendency to vouch for late dates (quite unusual since supporters of a West Asian urheimat are more prone to invoke late dates), and there are countless sources in French on this issue. I've also read much of what Ehret has written on Cushitic, which is much more reliable than his reconstruction of PAA if you ask me. And then there's my own work, which you won't find on the internetz :lol:

I read a lot about Chadic, I initially wanted to gauge the validity of the so-called "Chado-Berber" node and well, the more I read about Chadic the less plausible it sounded. In turn, Chadic verbal morphology shares quite a few traits with Ancient Egyptian verbal morphology, so I tend to think the two formed a node of their own, if they weren't totally separate branches of course. One thing's for sure: Chadic and Egyptian were the very last branches to break away from the AA trunk (which is paradoxical considering the fact that Ancient Egyptian is the oldest AA language we know of).


Yeah, M35's TMRCA is about 25 kya which is clearly way too old for PAA. M35 is most diverse in North Africa, so there should have been various M35 branches (and L19 dated to ~14 kya, may be one of them) in North Africa at the time of PAA's dispersals. If so, something downstream of L19, may be responsible for pre-proto-Berber. Other possible candidates are M78 (V65?), maybe even J1 (we desperately need high resolution testing of Afroasiatic J1 lineages). But of course, this is all very speculative for now.

I really think M81 closely follows the development of Berber, but like you said there are other possible candidates, notably V65 and possibly J1 (which is old enough to have been around back when the earliest Libyco-Berber communities were emerging) though it would be nice to know more about the J1 branches we're dealing with here.
But yes, these are just educated guesses.

RCO
02-25-2016, 11:46 PM
From another thread and another article about North African J1-P58 and E-M81: Regueiro's article: From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome prospective.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25701402


J1a2b2a*-L222.2 is the only J1a2b-lineage observed in the Northwest African (NA) populations of Tunisia and Morocco. In this region, this mutation displays frequencies of 25% in Sfax, 15% in Béja and 17% in Morocco. However, no individuals with this sub-haplogroup were found in Spain where only paragroup J1a2b2*-L147.1 is detected. The highest frequency of L222.2 is seen in Qatar (39%) followed by Oman (12%), Egypt and Bahrain (5%), and UAE and Yemen (2%). Conversely, the L147.1 mutation ranges from 59% in Yemen to 2% in Bahrain. It is interesting to note that J1a2b2a1-L65.2 is observed at low frequencies in Qatar (7%), Bahrain and Yemen (2%) but reaches 21% in UAE. Haplogroup J1a2b1-L92.1 was only detected in two populations and at low frequencies: UAE (4%) and Oman (3%). Undefined paragroup J1a2b*-P58 is found at low frequencies in Yemen (6%), Bahrain (5%), Oman (2%) and Qatar (1%).

No Arab L222.2 J1 types were found in Iberia, only Berber E-M81 types.

Romilius
02-26-2016, 09:34 AM
That E-M81 - K1 sample makes me think about that legend about the origins of the Cagot caste in the Pyrenees dealing with a group of moor soldier refugees...

ffoucart
02-26-2016, 09:47 AM
That E-M81 - K1 sample makes me think about that legend about the origins of the Cagot caste in the Pyrenees dealing with a group of moor soldier refugees...
I've read another legend saying that the Cagots were descendants of the Wisigoths (that's why they were fair haired).

But I think that more probably they were people living in the margins, in link with wood and forests.