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Rafal78
02-25-2016, 01:37 AM
I read on another blog that the French profiles and the German profiles used on most of these DNA sites, but specifically Gedmatch, are taken from populations so related that they are almost interchangeable.

Or at the very least there has allowed for a lot of overlap between the DNA Germanic and French profiles.


So this throws my results off. I am apparently very "German" [some sites put at nearly 50% "German"], an erroneous match because coming from upper class society / nobility on the oldest side of my family the marriage, etc. records are quite accurate [I have gone back, and as have other relatives, to the 600s] and likewise accurate with my mother's side [which was mid to upper class British, 15th century]. My grandparents still own a farm / manoir house in the same region of France which has been in the family [French nobility] since the early 14th century [and the 11th century château remains further north].


So I am wondering what DNA sampling site has the most accurate French national reference populations?

And are these reference populations actually taken from the country in question or someone living in the US for example claiming to be French.

ffoucart
02-25-2016, 02:04 AM
Good question.

But I think the answer would be: "does the French have a specific ethnicity?"

I think the answer would be: "No".

Either because too close to neighbors (try to find differences between Northern French and Belgians!), or regionally subdivised (Southern French are considered differently as French nowadays).

But in fact, there are too few French tested.

About nobility, remember that we are all descendants of farmers (especially the French nobility, as many families have been granted nobility only in the XVIIth or XVIIIth century), and that many genealogies of noble families are false (I'm well informed on this specific matter), because at some point, somebody wanted to be "more noble" than he was and falsified documents.

So it means there is no specificities to "aristocratic DNA", even if, in the XVIIIth century, some nobles pretended to be Franks rather than Gauls, as the commoners. ;-)

You can also visit our French subforum.

Rafal78
02-25-2016, 10:29 AM
Good question.

But I think the answer would be: "does the French have a specific ethnicity?"

I think the answer would be: "No".

Either because too close to neighbors (try to find differences between Northern French and Belgians!), or regionally subdivised (Southern French are considered differently as French nowadays).

But in fact, there are too few French tested.

About nobility, remember that we are all descendants of farmers (especially the French nobility, as many families have been granted nobility only in the XVIIth or XVIIIth century), and that many genealogies of noble families are false (I'm well informed on this specific matter), because at some point, somebody wanted to be "more noble" than he was and falsified documents.

So it means there is no specificities to "aristocratic DNA", even if, in the XVIIIth century, some nobles pretended to be Franks rather than Gauls, as the commoners. ;-)

You can also visit our French subforum.

The comment of french farmers really only applies to people whom like to think they are related to nobility. There are a few nobles whose origins are not clear - such as one who might have actually been a knight granted land. However, unlike the inferior person you mentioned, first I have more than enough LEGIT documentation proving my relation to REAL nobility and that potential knight is noted in the family tree as knight [that's what brackets were designed for].

However, the family research into our lineage was started by my uncle nearly 40 years ago and his father, working alongside a historican, was doing as he could beforehand. Ours has been proven through historical records, land titles, church records and as I said on the famous people post by DNA where possible [e.g. living nobility relatives ARE related by DNA as well].

The fact that the family has been wealthy for not merely years but generations, one of my father's mother's relatives owned six different properties in France the 1600s which would indicate that that individual was not some pauper or the old manoir house my grandparents own; the fact that my uncle has hunted with Prince Charles & his sons [and I am not talking as the simple dog handler], and has photos proving such; the fact, that, not only I but other relatives have traced our REAL french nobility lineage back to 600s eradicates the 18th century comments by a mile.

As for aristocratic DNA - for such general things as gedmatch, and commoners using DNA to claim they are nobles, I gave my summary in the famous people. Just people whom suffer illusions of grandeur by pretending they are more than they really are. As I said in the famous people post most DNA profiles and claims via DNA to nobility has zero accuracy. Most DNA claims of "nobility" lineage by the average person - they aren't descended from nobility, they're descended from the villagers [the soldiers].

As I said, not only do I have proven well researched lineage but DNA has marked "living nobility" as relatives. Kindly quit trying to drag me down with the average claims, cause it is like trying to compare an apple not to an orange but a potato.

ffoucart
02-25-2016, 11:13 AM
I was only amphizing the fact that in Europe, we are all from the same genetic stock.

Moreover, you don't have enough historical knowledge to have grievance against you.

If you had so, you would be ashamed by your statements, not only because all kings and queens have commoners as ancestors (remember who William the Conqueror was the son of? Not an isolated case) but your statement about knights is simply ridiculous.
Knights were not part of the nobility, "stricto sensu", until the end of the XIIth century. In fact knights were of mixed origins: cadets of noble families, wealthy farmers, serfs (also called "ministeriales").

The ministeriales were common in Germany, and most nobles took a title (variation of Graf) to be distinguished from them.

Anyway, many aristocratic families falsified their genealogies. It's a fact. There is even very interesting technical aspects (how to add some words, suppress others on an old contract).

I know many families, some high ranked with very commoners as ancestors, but hiding so.

If my grand aunt were still alive (something like a 3d grandmother to me), I don't know how she would react to your conclusion, or I know too well. She was a true lady, and from a very old high ranked family (duke & prince).

Your family is your concern not mine. But as you ask about why there is no clear distinction between French and German, I was only trying to answer.

Dubhthach
02-25-2016, 12:27 PM
Well if you look at the PoBI studies they had at least three distinct ancestral components clusters showing up in France. I wonder if part of issue with testing companies is due to French law, so any sample populations they have might be quite small -- so differenation doens't show up. When you consider history of France/Germany there should be at least some distinctiveness between the two regions.

ffoucart
02-25-2016, 02:38 PM
I can add something: before the 2014 on 23andme, I was 100% French & Getman. So it means that I was (an) part of their French panel. The problem was solved this then (Dienekes wrote an article about the problem and some ideas to solve it).

So, given the lack of Continental testees, no surprise that it's difficult to break France and Germany into different ethnicities (even if it's difficult to distinguish Northern French from Belgians or South Germans).

anglesqueville
02-25-2016, 09:41 PM
I have already posted this PCA on the french subforum some days ago. It comes from https://www.academia.edu/20275663/European_population_genetic_substructure_Further_d efinition_of_ancestry_informative_markers_for_dist inguishing_among_diverse_European_ethnic_groups

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7899&d=1455959277
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7900&d=1455959291

Look on the yellow cluster, that contains northern french (only northern). It's streched between Spain and Russia, overlays Germany and mixes, in its northern part, with Ireland and Norway.Just to feed your thoughts.