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Passa
02-25-2016, 07:54 PM
Reliable sources are telling me that out of 8 Copts they share with on 23andMe, 5 of them are V65+. The sub-clade breakdown is:

- 5 E-V65 (62.5%)
- 1 E-M123 (12.5%)
- 1 J-M267 (12.5%)
- 1 T-M70 (12.5%)

Anyone else here sharing with Copts on 23andMe and willing to add data?

nee4speed111
03-07-2016, 08:16 AM
I am a copt and 23andme tells my my Paternal DNA is E1b1b1c1a, I'm not sure which sub-clade this is. I'm sharing with other copts who have E1b1b1c, E1b1b1a and E1b1b1c

Almagest
03-07-2016, 10:50 AM
I am a copt and 23andme tells my my Paternal DNA is E1b1b1c1a, I'm not sure which sub-clade this is. I'm sharing with other copts who have E1b1b1c, E1b1b1a and E1b1b1c
I'm not sure how behind 23andme is but I suspect E1b1b1c is E-M34.

Lank
03-07-2016, 04:52 PM
23andMe's E1b1b1c1a is E-M84, which is downstream of M34 and M123.

Agamemnon
03-07-2016, 04:55 PM
23andMe uses ISOGG's 2009 nomenclature, so E1b1b1c1a is E-M84, just like Lank said.

Awale
03-07-2016, 05:06 PM
The heck is it with E-M84 nowadays... Drobbah and I turned up with two supposedly Somali relatives who were E-M84 (mtDNA markers are L2a1a2 & L3f1a) whilst Lank recently noticed the following:


I checked my 23andMe shares, I wasn't aware but 23andMe does test for M84.

I have 3 shares with M34. Of these, 2 are M84 (both Ethiopian, not related to me). One is Eritrean, one of my closest 23andMe relatives, and he is not M84 but rather M290, a very rare branch which has previously only been found in Palestine. Interestingly when looking at my relative finder list, I found one more dude who belongs to the rare M290. I also have one M84 relative, Ethiopian adoptee of unknown origins (but typical Habesha results).

Anyway, need4speed. You're that fellow who recently added me on 23andme, yes? You and him have the same Y-DNA and mtDNA markers and he is a "North African", I'm assuming this is no coincidence. Anyway, Agamemnon and Lank are quite correct as Passa pointed out to me a little while back in private:


c = M123
c1 = M34 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M34/)
c1a = M84 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M84/)

MfA
03-07-2016, 05:40 PM
I am a copt and 23andme tells my my Paternal DNA is E1b1b1c1a, I'm not sure which sub-clade this is. I'm sharing with other copts who have E1b1b1c, E1b1b1a and E1b1b1c

Would be great if you could take a FTDNA SNP pack or even better Fullgenomes/Big-Y. I guess Copts would be Y14899+, (http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M84/) like Palestinian Christians or Ashkenazis.

nee4speed111
03-07-2016, 07:55 PM
The heck is it with E-M84 nowadays... Drobbah and I turned up with two supposedly Somali relatives who were E-M84 (mtDNA markers are L2a1a2 & L3f1a) whilst Lank recently noticed the following:



Anyway, need4speed. You're that fellow who recently added me on 23andme, yes? You and him have the same Y-DNA and mtDNA markers and he is a "North African", I'm assuming this is no coincidence. Anyway, Agamemnon and Lank are quite correct as Passa pointed out to me a little while back in private:



yeah that's me, I'm relatively new to this DNA stuff so have just been adding people who look interesting.

kingjohn
03-08-2016, 11:29 AM
reading all this mybe e-m34 originated in ethiopia
and not egypt.
regards
adam

Passa
03-29-2016, 08:06 PM
I am a copt and 23andme tells my my Paternal DNA is E1b1b1c1a, I'm not sure which sub-clade this is. I'm sharing with other copts who have E1b1b1c, E1b1b1a and E1b1b1c

Fantastic! Could you tell us more about this? How many Copts are you sharing with? What are other haplogroups among them beside E?

nee4speed111
03-30-2016, 04:56 AM
Sure, in terms of maternal-DNA there is: 1 H4, 1 H5, 2 K1a, 1 K1a1b1b, 1 L2a1d , 1 L3e1, 1 M1a1, 2 T1, 4 T1a, 3 T2b

In terms of Y-DNA, there is: 1 E1b1b1a, 1 E1b1b1c, 3 E1b1b1c1a, 1 J1, 2 J1e, 1 J2a1b*, 2 J2b1, 2 T

ashraff
05-30-2016, 09:13 AM
Hi pasaa,

RELIABLE !!! TELLING?!!!! Are you serious ??
who are those 5 people, brothers? cousins??

these percentages are not based on scientific research.... Reliability and telling is not enough.

thanks

E_M81_I3A
07-14-2016, 08:04 PM
For information, here are Y-Dna haplogroup frequencies found in a sample of 33 Copt from Sudan (who are of Egyptian descent) by Hassan et al. 2008

B: 5/33 = 15.15%

J1: 13/33 = 39.4%
J2: 2/33 = 6.1%

E1b1b-M78-V32: 5/33 = 15.15%
E1b1b-M35: 2/33 = 6.1%

K: 1/33 = 3.0%

R1b: 5/33 = 15.15%

So mainly J= 45.5% and E1b1b = 21.2% (but no E-V65)

nee4speed111
07-15-2016, 04:17 PM
So just discovered the Haplogroup tree mutation marker tool, and decided to see what sort of E lineages my relatives on 23andme had. So far

E-M78 = 5
E1b1b1a2* (Not sure what this one is?) = 1
E-V65 = 1
E-M165 = 4
E-M123 = 3
E-M34 = 3
E-M84 = 4

Now because I was using the 23andme relative spreadsheet, I can't confirm every single match is Egyptian as some of them haven't accepted my sharing request, but those are all of the E lineages of the relatives I am sharing with

Passa
07-15-2016, 04:28 PM
So just discovered the Haplogroup tree mutation marker tool, and decided to see what sort of E lineages my relatives on 23andme had. So far

E-M78 = 5
E1b1b1a2* (Not sure what this one is?) = 1
E-V65 = 1
E-M165 = 4
E-M123 = 3
E-M34 = 3
E-M84 = 4

Now because I was using the 23andme relative spreadsheet, I can't confirm every single match is Egyptian as some of them haven't accepted my sharing request, but those are all of the E lineages of the relatives I am sharing with

What about non-E lineages?

lifeisdandy
07-15-2016, 04:38 PM
I am sharing with many copts and these are their ydna and mtdna haplogroups:

1 E1b1b1a1b
6 E1b1b1a
1 E1b1b1a2*
5 E1b1b1a4
4 J2a1b1*
6 j1e
6 T
2 E1b1b1b2a
12 E1b1b1c1a which is the highest I see amongst copts...

mtdna
1 K1a1b1a
1 U5b2b
13 HV
1 L2a1d
3 M1a1
2 R0a1a
2 N1b1b
1 J1b1a
1 L3e2a
1 t2b (me)
1 J1d1
2 K1a
2 T1
1 U6a2
1 J2a2
1 L2a1d
1 H5

lifeisdandy
07-15-2016, 04:45 PM
I am sharing with many copts and these are their ydna and mtdna haplogroups:

1 E1b1b1a1b
6 E1b1b1a
1 E1b1b1a2*
5 E1b1b1a4
4 J2a1b1*
6 j1e
6 T
2 E1b1b1b2a
12 E1b1b1c1a which is the highest I see amongst copts...

mtdna
1 K1a1b1a
1 U5b2b
13 HV
1 L2a1d
3 M1a1
2 R0a1a
2 N1b1b
1 J1b1a
1 L3e2a
1 t2b (me)
1 J1d1
2 K1a
2 T1
1 U6a2
1 J2a2
1 L2a1d
1 H5

J21ab1* is probably of balkan origin or macedonian

Passa
07-15-2016, 04:48 PM
I am sharing with many copts and these are their ydna and mtdna haplogroups:

1 E1b1b1a1b
6 E1b1b1a
1 E1b1b1a2*
5 E1b1b1a4
4 J2a1b1*
6 j1e
6 T
2 E1b1b1b2a
12 E1b1b1c1a which is the highest I see amongst copts...

5/43 = 11.6% E-V65, which is much higher than the Egyptian average (2.4%), and also higher than in most North African regions.

nee4speed111
07-15-2016, 04:53 PM
T-M184? (23andme just says T) = 4
J1-M267 = 2
J1-P58 = 8
J2/J-M172 = 2
J2a1b* = 2
R1b1 P25 = 1

lifeisdandy
07-15-2016, 05:21 PM
so what can we deduce from these haplogroups?

Passa
07-15-2016, 05:44 PM
so what can we deduce from these haplogroups?

Copts have a really high frequency of E-M123 (28% according to your data), which peaks in Dead Sea Jordanians and in some Ethiopian populations. Among Egyptian Arabs it has a frequency of 7%. They also have a higher frequency of E-V65 compared to the rest of Egyptians and most other North Africans. Not sure whether to consider the high M123 in Copts as being an ancient retention or recent founder effect of Levantine origin.

lifeisdandy
07-15-2016, 05:55 PM
Copts have a really high frequency of E-M123 (28% according to your data), which peaks in Dead Sea Jordanians and in some Ethiopian populations. Among Egyptian Arabs it has a frequency of 7%. They also have a higher frequency of E-V65 compared to the rest of Egyptians and most other North Africans. Not sure whether to consider the high M123 in Copts as being an ancient retention or recent founder effect of Levantine origin.

If this subclade is of levantine origin..then what haplogroup would have been considered of native egyptian origin?>

Passa
07-15-2016, 06:01 PM
If this subclade is of levantine origin..then what haplogroup would have been considered of native egyptian origin?>

E-V12(xV32), E-V65 and E-V22 were probably part of the Ancient Egyptian gene pool, but of course we need aDNA from Egypt to confirm this assumption.

jof2311
07-15-2016, 07:05 PM
These Copts are from Egypt?
Egyptians copts are considered as closest egyptians to the anciant egyptians..
So E-v65 seems to be significaly present among these ethnic population, even more than in north african samples , perhaps it 's a signal of the origin of this subhaplogroup?

jof2311
07-15-2016, 07:08 PM
By the way Passa if i understand E1b1b1a4 is equivalent to e-v65?
Thank's

Passa
07-15-2016, 07:42 PM
By the way Passa if i understand E1b1b1a4 is equivalent to e-v65?
Thank's

Yes, E1b1b1a4 is V65 according to ISOGG nomenclature.

Passa
07-15-2016, 07:43 PM
These Copts are from Egypt?
Egyptians copts are considered as closest egyptians to the anciant egyptians..
So E-v65 seems to be significaly present among these ethnic population, even more than in north african samples , perhaps it 's a signal of the origin of this subhaplogroup?

Too early to tell. When more samples will be analysed by YFull we could make assumptions regarding the place of origin of V65.

jof2311
07-15-2016, 07:55 PM
Oh, indeed it's too early, it would be just a clue.
It would be interesting too to know from where are these copts in Egypt..
E-v65 is supposed to be close to E-v12 wich seems to be absent in these samples..?
Regards.

lifeisdandy
07-15-2016, 08:01 PM
Oh, indeed it's too early, it would be just a clue.
It would be interesting too to know from where are these copts in Egypt..
E-v65 is supposed to be close to E-v12 wich seems to be absent in these samples..?
Regards.

Most copts are originally from upper and middle egypt originally...

jof2311
07-15-2016, 10:05 PM
Ok Lifeisdandy
, Upper and middle Egypt, more samples could be very interesting for both sisters clades v12 and v65, for understanding their split and spread..
Thank's.

nee4speed111
07-16-2016, 12:30 AM
How about E-M78? Both lifeisdany and me have quite a few relatives who belong to this clade

nee4speed111
07-16-2016, 04:56 AM
I am sharing with many copts and these are their ydna and mtdna haplogroups:

1 E1b1b1a1b
6 E1b1b1a
1 E1b1b1a2*
5 E1b1b1a4
4 J2a1b1*
6 j1e
6 T
2 E1b1b1b2a
12 E1b1b1c1a which is the highest I see amongst copts...

mtdna
1 K1a1b1a
1 U5b2b
13 HV
1 L2a1d
3 M1a1
2 R0a1a
2 N1b1b
1 J1b1a
1 L3e2a
1 t2b (me)
1 J1d1
2 K1a
2 T1
1 U6a2
1 J2a2
1 L2a1d
1 H5

So in terms of E lineages, you have
1 E-V32
6 E-M78
1 E1b1b1a2* ( E-V13?)
5 E-V65
2 E-M165
12 E-M84

And I have

E-M78 = 5
E1b1b1a2* (E-V13?) = 1
E-V65 = 1
E-M165 = 4
E-M123 = 3
E-M34 = 3
E-M84 = 4

So we both have significant amounts of E-M78, you have a lot more E-V65 relatives than I do, but that could just be random? and we both have E-M165 wich is a descendant of M183 and M81, which is the Berber subclade I believe. In terms of E-M84, we both have decent amounts although you have way more than I do, but I have the upstream E-M34 and E-M123 clades which your relatives don't seem to have.

You have a single E-V32 relative, and I don't have any, which is pretty interesting too. Also we both have a Single E-V13?(not sure what the * next to it means) clade, which from what i understand is of Greek origins.

Our non-E lineages seem pretty similar too, significant amounts of T-M184(23andme just says T), and lots of J1, sepcifically J1-P58 although I have 2 J1-M267 relatives as well.

jof2311
07-16-2016, 08:31 AM
[I]t's interesting to notice that the Egyptian subclade E-V22 is absent of yours datas? it's true that it is more present in lower Egypt.

lifeisdandy
07-16-2016, 09:23 PM
Im one of those copts with a father with J1-p58... His ancestors came from a northern arabian tribe in ancient times

jof2311
07-17-2016, 10:24 AM
the e-v65 copts you know in your entourage have an old history in the area?

lifeisdandy
07-17-2016, 03:45 PM
All I know is they are all from upper egypt like my family

nee4speed111
07-25-2016, 11:24 PM
H1
H1
H1
H1
H4
HV
HV
HV1
HV1
HV1a
J1c3b
J1d1
K1a
K1a
K1a
K1a
K1a1b1b
L2a1c
L2a1d
L3e1
L3f1b
M1a
M1a1
M1a1
M1a1
M1a1
M1a1
M1a4
M1a4
N1b1
N1b1b
N1c
R0a1a
T1
T1
T1a
T1a
T1a
T2a1b
T2a1b
T2b
T2b
U3a
U3b
U3b
U5a1
U5a2c
U5b2b
U6a
U6a
U6a
U8b
U8b
X2b

Theramster
08-02-2016, 12:02 AM
I am sharing with many copts and these are their ydna and mtdna haplogroups:

1 E1b1b1a1b
6 E1b1b1a
1 E1b1b1a2*
5 E1b1b1a4
4 J2a1b1*
6 j1e
6 T
2 E1b1b1b2a
12 E1b1b1c1a which is the highest I see amongst copts...

mtdna
1 K1a1b1a
1 U5b2b
13 HV
1 L2a1d
3 M1a1
2 R0a1a
2 N1b1b
1 J1b1a
1 L3e2a
1 t2b (me)
1 J1d1
2 K1a
2 T1
1 U6a2
1 J2a2
1 L2a1d
1 H5

Could you please give me the Y haplogroup if applicable of your match whose mtDNA is U5b2b? Thank you

Theramster
08-05-2016, 03:45 PM
It's interesting to also consider linguistics. I came across this study which in spite of some minor confusion between Latin & Greek has a valid thesis. Something that I myself encountered when I studied Coptic. The roots were at times semitic and at tines similar to indoeuropean languages and the grammar felt less semitic and more Indoeuropean. These are just linguistic impressions to someone familiar with Indoeuropean and Semitic languages. This can also have some bearing on the origin of the civilization of Ancient Egypt and its ancient influence on the various other groups which later came to be identified as Semites and Indoeuropean.

Could it be that Egypt was a seminal crossroads of various people who through a process of migrations dispersed to form other culture and branches of humanity?

The_Influence_of_the_Ancient_Egyptian_Language_on_ the_European_Languages

lifeisdandy
08-05-2016, 03:51 PM
Could you please give me the Y haplogroup if applicable of your match whose mtDNA is U5b2b? Thank you

oh sorry I never saw this message..will check now....his ydna is j1e

Theramster
08-08-2016, 01:12 AM
oh sorry I never saw this message..will check now....his ydna is j1e

I checked out your J-P58 paternal line on ftDNA. I'm surprised you were clusterd together with the 2 individuals from Saudia Arabia. By examining the STR data you are indeed closer to them than to the Greek kit following you, yet you haven't shared a common ancestor with them for many thousands of years. I don't know if you tested for downstream SNPs. I wouldn't be surprised if each of these lines had its own unique subclades. They are not close to each other either. They are relatively as distant to each other as to you. This was very informative. If this line is Coptic and not Aramaic ( since i found the same kit under an Aramaic group) then this J line must date back to ancient Egypt, and is not of 7th century Arab provenance. This further shows that Ancient Semites were present in the composition of Ancient Egypt as much as the E line. Just few thoughts. Cheers.

lifeisdandy
08-08-2016, 04:18 PM
I checked out your J-P58 paternal line on ftDNA. I'm surprised you were clusterd together with the 2 individuals from Saudia Arabia. By examining the STR data you are indeed closer to them than to the Greek kit following you, yet you haven't shared a common ancestor with them for many thousands of years. I don't know if you tested for downstream SNPs. I wouldn't be surprised if each of these lines had its own unique subclades. They are not close to each other either. They are relatively as distant to each other as to you. This was very informative. If this line is Coptic and not Aramaic ( since i found the same kit under an Aramaic group) then this J line must date back to ancient Egypt, and is not of 7th century Arab provenance. This further shows that Ancient Semites were present in the composition of Ancient Egypt as much as the E line. Just few thoughts. Cheers.
After speaking with the ftdna j1 administrator..it seems as though he is very confident I am related to these 2 saudi individuals and we share a common ancestor 2100 years ago. Our cluster is 4500 years old and he believes our paternal ancestors were among the earliest semitic speakers in the near east. The question of whether or not the cluster is arabian in origin or egyptian in origin is hard to say for now. I took a big Y test for my father to test for more snps and see what it can show us but the administrator told me it is possible that my paternal ancestor came from northern arabia while the two saudis ancestors stayed put in arabia.

What is also strange is that my father seems to be related to 2 other saudis (not through a common paternal ancestor) which isnt strange being that we are neighbors but its strange given that we are copts and don't intermarry ... but there are so many connections with saudi arabia on my fathers side that im wondering if we do have ancestors from there who converted at one point...

Theramster
08-08-2016, 06:56 PM
After speaking with the ftdna j1 administrator..it seems as though he is very confident I am related to these 2 saudi individuals and we share a common ancestor 2100 years ago. Our cluster is 4500 years old and he believes our paternal ancestors were among the earliest semitic speakers in the near east. The question of whether or not the cluster is arabian in origin or egyptian in origin is hard to say for now. I took a big Y test for my father to test for more snps and see what it can show us but the administrator told me it is possible that my paternal ancestor came from northern arabia while the two saudis ancestors stayed put in arabia.
.

I just don't know how he pinned it down to a common ancestor 2100 years ago. It's more like 3500 years old or even much much older if STR mutations mean anything at all ( which they do). I also argue that the 2 individuals have been equally separated from one another for thousands of years. Have you tried getting your Big Y data analyzed with Yfull? You should. I don't think all three will have the same terminal SNP as assumed by the administrator.

If as I believe it's many thousands of years old then it makes sense it came from the near east and was present in the initial composition of ancient Egypt as a Semitic contribution.

It's always possible that your father may have some autosomal Arab admixture but this says nothing about his patrilineal Y DNA so him being matched autosomally with Saudis generates very little information about the age and history of his Y DNA. Especially if according to your adminstrator the common ancestor is some 2000 years ago, autosomally no Saudi DNA should show. They're 2 different unrelated events...

(Just a disclaimer: I read a complaint from an Italian J-P58 who was told by tbe J1 admin that he somehow descended from Arab tribes who settled in Italy, forgetting that it could be an ancient Semitic migration to Italy, as it most likely is. Only by examining mutations and downstream SNPs can anything be confirmed. Our italian friend was furious about how confident the admin was! )

lifeisdandy
08-08-2016, 07:09 PM
I just don't know how he pinned it down to a common ancestor 2100 years ago. It's more like 3500 years old or even much much older if STR mutations mean anything at all ( which they do). I also argue that the 2 individuals have been equally separated from one another for thousands of years. Have you tried getting your Big Y data analyzed with Yfull? You should. I don't think all three will have the same terminal SNP as assumed by the administrator.

If as I believe it's many thousands of years old then it makes sense it came from the near east and was present in the initial composition of ancient Egypt as a Semitic contribution.

It's always possible that your father may have some autosomal Arab admixture but this says nothing about his patrilineal Y DNA so him being matched autosomally with Saudis generates very little information about the age and history of his Y DNA. Especially if according to your adminstrator the common ancestor is some 2000 years ago, autosomally no Saudi DNA should show. They're 2 different unrelated events...

I have conflicting opinions on the nature of my father's ydna...the only thing anyone seems to agree on is that it's not native to Egypt and represents a semitic migration into the sinai peninsula and then into Egypt. No one knows when though. What is the Yfull? I didn't know about this...only the Big Y.. I am trying to get these other saudi matches to also do the Big Y test but to no avail yet... Agamemnon..the moderator here told me that: "I looked at your STR markers and compared them to your other matches, it seems you and the two Saudi samples share a common ancestor roughly 2,000 years ago, now since we're using STR markers to calculate the TMRCA I think we can add another thousand years, so realistically your common ancestor lived some 3,000 years ago.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that your paternal ancestors arrived in Egypt via the Sinai peninsula, when is a whole different topic. There are several possibilities, the first is that, considering your Saudi matches and the TMRCA estimate, your ancestors came from an Arabian tribe which converted to Christianity at some point (there was a plethora of such tribes), in this case your ancestors might've been employed as foederati by the Byzantine empire before immigrating to Egypt. Another possibility is that your ancestors initially arrived in Egypt with the Hyksos, and that the Saudi individuals have Egyptian ancestry along their paternal line at some point in history. Finally, another possible scenario is that your paternal ancestors made it to Egypt during the Late Neolithic/early Chalcolithic period, the basal status of your cluster under P58 would allow such a scenario to unfold, in turn this would also mean the Saudi individuals have Egyptian ancestors along their paternal line at some point.

In terms of likeliness and considering the overall age of your cluster (4,500 to 5,500 yBP) I'd say it's extremely likely your ancestors were amongst the earliest Semitic-speaking communities.

The best thing would be to take the Big Y test, this would enable you to find specific SNPs delineating your cluster, which would make things easier in case we find an ancient sample belonging to your sample, we'd just have to check whether this sample carries the same marker. I think rare/basal P58 lineages like yours were more common by the past and were weeded out throughout the region's turbulent demographic history.

An origin in Ancient North Arabian tribes makes the most sense when I look at your cluster, since it probably originated in NW Arabia. Old North Arabian languages were very archaic relatives of Old Arabic which, in turn, were replaced and gradually erased as Old Arabic (and its descendants) spread out, languages such as "Thamudic" (a label which includes several different dialects), Dedanitic, Taymanitic, Hasaitic, Safaitic (which is the closest to Arabic), Dumaitic and Oasis North Arabian.
I'm quite certain your paternal ancestors spoke one (or several) of these languages, I've read a lot about Old North Arabian, if you have questions about this too just ask, I'm a student in linguistics after all "

Theramster
08-08-2016, 07:22 PM
I have conflicting opinions on the nature of my father's ydna...the only thing anyone seems to agree on is that it's not native to Egypt and represents a semitic migration into the sinai peninsula and then into Egypt. No one knows when though. What is the Yfull? I didn't know about this...only the Big Y.. I am trying to get these other saudi matches to also do the Big Y test but to no avail yet... Agamemnon..the moderator here told me that: "I looked at your STR markers and compared them to your other matches, it seems you and the two Saudi samples share a common ancestor roughly 2,000 years ago, now since we're using STR markers to calculate the TMRCA I think we can add another thousand years, so realistically your common ancestor lived some 3,000 years ago.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that your paternal ancestors arrived in Egypt via the Sinai peninsula, when is a whole different topic. There are several possibilities, the first is that, considering your Saudi matches and the TMRCA estimate, your ancestors came from an Arabian tribe which converted to Christianity at some point (there was a plethora of such tribes), in this case your ancestors might've been employed as foederati by the Byzantine empire before immigrating to Egypt. Another possibility is that your ancestors initially arrived in Egypt with the Hyksos, and that the Saudi individuals have Egyptian ancestry along their paternal line at some point in history. Finally, another possible scenario is that your paternal ancestors made it to Egypt during the Late Neolithic/early Chalcolithic period, the basal status of your cluster under P58 would allow such a scenario to unfold, in turn this would also mean the Saudi individuals have Egyptian ancestors along their paternal line at some point.

In terms of likeliness and considering the overall age of your cluster (4,500 to 5,500 yBP) I'd say it's extremely likely your ancestors were amongst the earliest Semitic-speaking communities.

The best thing would be to take the Big Y test, this would enable you to find specific SNPs delineating your cluster, which would make things easier in case we find an ancient sample belonging to your sample, we'd just have to check whether this sample carries the same marker. I think rare/basal P58 lineages like yours were more common by the past and were weeded out throughout the region's turbulent demographic history.

An origin in Ancient North Arabian tribes makes the most sense when I look at your cluster, since it probably originated in NW Arabia. Old North Arabian languages were very archaic relatives of Old Arabic which, in turn, were replaced and gradually erased as Old Arabic (and its descendants) spread out, languages such as "Thamudic" (a label which includes several different dialects), Dedanitic, Taymanitic, Hasaitic, Safaitic (which is the closest to Arabic), Dumaitic and Oasis North Arabian.
I'm quite certain your paternal ancestors spoke one (or several) of these languages, I've read a lot about Old North Arabian, if you have questions about this too just ask, I'm a student in linguistics after all "

Yfull service analyses the BigY BAM file and includes the result into their public Yfull tree. Egypt seems to be a treasure house of these old exotic basal groups which went on elsewhere to have their own lives. I too had a basal result.

Agamemnon agrees with what I thought an ancient ancestor some 3500+ years ago. There is no doubt in my mind that your ancestors are Ancient Semites, who came to Egypt and made what we know to be historic Egypt...

lifeisdandy
08-08-2016, 07:23 PM
Yfull service analyses the BigY BAM file and includes the result into their public Yfull tree. Egypt seems to be a treasure house of these old exotic basal groups which went on elsewhere to have their own lives. I too had a basal result.

Agamemnon agrees with what I thought an ancient ancestor some 3500+ years ago. There is no doubt in my mind that your ancestors are Ancient Semites, who came to Egypt and made what we know to be historic Egypt...

Where do you think they came from? What present day area?

Theramster
08-08-2016, 07:42 PM
Where do you think they came from? What present day area?
It's difficult to say really since we're talking about a very ancient event. What matters is what they became and did in Egypt. Egypt from its inception had Semitic composition as I posted earlier. Ancient Semites lived in the Near East ( Levant - Mesopotamia- Arabia). Some of these people along with others came to Egypt in prehistoric times and fused with the Nile dwellers and forged what we know as Ancient Egypt..

Theramster
08-08-2016, 08:01 PM
I have conflicting opinions on the nature of my father's ydna...the only thing anyone seems to agree on is that it's not native to Egypt and represents a semitic migration into the sinai peninsula and then into Egypt. No one knows when though. What is the Yfull? I didn't know about this...only the Big Y.. I am trying to get these other saudi matches to also do the Big Y test but to no avail yet... Agamemnon..the moderator here told me that: "I looked at your STR markers and compared them to your other matches, it seems you and the two Saudi samples share a common ancestor roughly 2,000 years ago, now since we're using STR markers to calculate the TMRCA I think we can add another thousand years, so realistically your common ancestor lived some 3,000 years ago.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that your paternal ancestors arrived in Egypt via the Sinai peninsula, when is a whole different topic. There are several possibilities, the first is that, considering your Saudi matches and the TMRCA estimate, your ancestors came from an Arabian tribe which converted to Christianity at some point (there was a plethora of such tribes), in this case your ancestors might've been employed as foederati by the Byzantine empire before immigrating to Egypt. Another possibility is that your ancestors initially arrived in Egypt with the Hyksos, and that the Saudi individuals have Egyptian ancestry along their paternal line at some point in history. Finally, another possible scenario is that your paternal ancestors made it to Egypt during the Late Neolithic/early Chalcolithic period, the basal status of your cluster under P58 would allow such a scenario to unfold, in turn this would also mean the Saudi individuals have Egyptian ancestors along their paternal line at some point.

In terms of likeliness and considering the overall age of your cluster (4,500 to 5,500 yBP) I'd say it's extremely likely your ancestors were amongst the earliest Semitic-speaking communities.

The best thing would be to take the Big Y test, this would enable you to find specific SNPs delineating your cluster, which would make things easier in case we find an ancient sample belonging to your sample, we'd just have to check whether this sample carries the same marker. I think rare/basal P58 lineages like yours were more common by the past and were weeded out throughout the region's turbulent demographic history.

An origin in Ancient North Arabian tribes makes the most sense when I look at your cluster, since it probably originated in NW Arabia. Old North Arabian languages were very archaic relatives of Old Arabic which, in turn, were replaced and gradually erased as Old Arabic (and its descendants) spread out, languages such as "Thamudic" (a label which includes several different dialects), Dedanitic, Taymanitic, Hasaitic, Safaitic (which is the closest to Arabic), Dumaitic and Oasis North Arabian.
I'm quite certain your paternal ancestors spoke one (or several) of these languages, I've read a lot about Old North Arabian, if you have questions about this too just ask, I'm a student in linguistics after all "

If you don't mind if ever you get your Big Y BAM file analyzed by Yfull.com please let me know where they have placed you on the Yfull tree ( just google Yfull J-P58). The other Saudis don't have to take BigY really, the STR difference guarantees all three belong to different subclades. Not everyone should take BigY. Enough for only one to take it and by comparing STR we figure out that certain samples can't possibly belong to same subclade. Cheers.

lifeisdandy
08-08-2016, 08:46 PM
So basically I go to yfull.com with my big y file and get it analyzed there?

Theramster
08-08-2016, 09:25 PM
So basically I go to yfull.com with my big y file and get it analyzed there?

Yes. But you have to order your BAM file from ftDNA first. It takes time for them to prepare it. Go to your bigY result, click on 'raw data'. Then click on ' request BAM file'. They should send you an email confirmation. Keep checking till you find a download link to your BAM file. Go to Yfull and upload the file.

lifeisdandy
08-08-2016, 11:58 PM
Ok will do it! Thanks for letting me know.

jof2311
08-09-2016, 05:31 PM
About the subject,if we find some V65 among Egyptian copts ,
anyone have an idea how E-V65 could arrive in South Egypt as it is more common in west North Africa..?

lifeisdandy
08-16-2016, 11:55 AM
I got my big y results !

brownar
08-16-2016, 12:24 PM
What did you learn?

lifeisdandy
08-16-2016, 02:32 PM
What did you learn?

Well it looks like my line is very rare but I need help analyzing it..

Theramster
08-16-2016, 07:31 PM
Well it looks like my line is very rare but I need help analyzing it..

As I expected. It's a very ancient different Semitic line. Egypt tends to harbor these unique branches. What does the result say? I guess Y full is next step.

lifeisdandy
08-16-2016, 08:06 PM
As I expected. It's a very ancient different Semitic line. Egypt tends to harbor these unique branches. What does the result say? I guess Y full is next step.

How can I show you my results?

Theramster
08-16-2016, 08:25 PM
How can I show you my results?

Try to take a snap shot of the haplotree. The SNPS in green are the derived ones. Thanks for wanting to share.

Artmar
08-16-2016, 09:36 PM
I guess that subbranches won't be visible, because branches under V65 are being researched just recently.
Maybe there are some Sanger SNP testing-defined branches but it will change after being properly covered by Big Y of FGC anyway.

That's the newest tree of V65 on the basis of full Y-Chromosome sequencing results: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V65/

Although only tiny part of V65 was sequenced and even a lesser part belongs to YFull, it seems that this branch exploded relatively recently (although NOT AS RECENTLY, as E-M81: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M81/ which is still thought to be present in prehistoric Iberia for some reason). Hopefully, it will diversify quickly. By doing Big Y and professional analysis, you will contribute greatly to the knowledge about V65.

Theramster
08-16-2016, 10:07 PM
I guess that subbranches won't be visible, because branches under V65 are being researched just recently.
Maybe there are some Sanger SNP testing-defined branches but it will change after being properly covered by Big Y of FGC anyway.

That's the newest tree of V65 on the basis of full Y-Chromosome sequencing results: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V65/

Although only tiny part of V65 was sequenced and even a lesser part belongs to YFull, it seems that this branch exploded relatively recently (although NOT AS RECENTLY, as E-M81: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M81/ which is still thought to be present in prehistoric Iberia for some reason). Hopefully, it will diversify quickly. By doing Big Y and professional analysis, you will contribute greatly to the knowledge about V65.

Why are most samples NOT including their country/locations? We have no idea whether or not they're from Egypt or elsewhere.

Another question: date of formation & TMRCA seem to be too distant from one another. Why is that?

Artmar
08-16-2016, 10:22 PM
Why are most samples NOT including their country/locations? We have no idea whether or not they're from Egypt or elsewhere.
Possibly most people just don't know how to set country/location. It's indeed irritating.


Another question: date of formation & TMRCA seem to be too distant from one another. Why is that?
Pretty simple thing.

V65 branch suffered from a long bottleneck and this branch now seems to be formed from over 74 SNPs, including V65.

We obviously don't know an exact position of V65...not until we test a sample that will leave only V65 itself or just with small company of other SNPs, carving out the rest SNPs from this long block.
But for now - V65 is somewhere within this long block. Maybe closer to the top or bottom, maybe in the middle. We have no idea.

Aforementioned block was formed around 12 kya. It started to spread just around 3 kya. It's then safe to assume, that V65 (as an SNP) formed 12 kya. TMRCA of samples within it is pretty measurable and around 3 kya, obviously.

lifeisdandy
08-16-2016, 11:19 PM
Does this show?

http://i67.tinypic.com/ay2238.jpg

Agamemnon
08-16-2016, 11:21 PM
Does this show?

http://i67.tinypic.com/ay2238.jpg

You're negative for all the current SNPs under P58 on the haplotree, pretty much what I expected, you're in a league of your own so to speak.

Theramster
08-16-2016, 11:33 PM
Does this show?

http://i67.tinypic.com/ay2238.jpg

Can you click on 'More' next to P58 and take a snapshot? Yeah yours is very ancient basal J-P58 as Agamemnon said. It's fascinating how Egypt has these very ancient basal types. Even though it's still too early, it's looking more likely that Egypt was an ancient hub for the most ancient branches of various haplogroups. In your case it's the infamous J-P58. Thanks for sharing, lifeisdandy.

lifeisdandy
08-16-2016, 11:50 PM
This is when I press more..

http://i65.tinypic.com/fuygec.jpg

lifeisdandy
08-16-2016, 11:51 PM
Do you still predict northwest arabia as the origin?

Theramster
08-17-2016, 12:14 AM
Do you still predict northwest arabia as the origin?
I would love to see where that line down from P58 is leading. But ftDNA determined that you must be negative for anything down from J-P58, which makes you a novel addition to the Yfull tree. It will change age estimation and the most recent common ancestor for the whole branch. At this point, lifeisdandy, I wouldn't care too much where it came from into Egypt since as it stands it can legitimately be said to be an Egyptian branch. I believe the other 2 Saudis are distant from you, either they belong to something downstream from you or they will form their own branches along with you. This is where I think Yfull would place you11006

I would truly recommend requesting your BAM file from ftDNA and when ready upload it to Yfull. Make sure you include a location (Egypt) for your sample once you upload it on Yfull website. They will provide you with ID # and account. Congrats. Good results.

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 12:17 AM
Awesome so im rare :)..what do you mean a location?

Theramster
08-17-2016, 12:33 AM
Awesome so im rare :)..what do you mean a location?

Yes indeed rare. It could even be not only Egyptian but a Coptic signature basal branch surviving among Christian Egyptians only. Too early to say but a real possibility. But regardless it is a treat to the genealogical community. Egypt and Christian Egypt is proving to be a treasure house for these ancient goodies that kind of went extinct elsewhere. Yfull didn't have an actual example of P58* even though it is hypothesized. I too had a similar experience with my journey. I'm starting to spot a pattern here.

Theramster
08-17-2016, 12:34 AM
Awesome so im rare :)..what do you mean a location?

Location/country of this YDNA line: Egypt

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 12:44 AM
Do you still think its ancient semitic that helped start egyptian history?

Theramster
08-17-2016, 12:54 AM
Do you still think its ancient semitic that helped start egyptian history?

I think it's a grouping of people Ancient Semites, Proto-Indo-Europeans and Nilotic people. This combination is responsible for the emergence of the Ancient Egypt of history and the old kingdom golden age.

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 12:57 AM
No but i mean you said that my line is ancient semitic in general. So you are saying my ydna line is ancient semitic that has been in egypt for thousands of years...

Theramster
08-17-2016, 01:00 AM
I think it's a grouping of people Ancient Semites, Proto-Indo-Europeans and Nilotic people. This combination is responsible for the emergence of the Ancient Egypt of history and the old kingdom golden age.

Obviously with tests like BigY we can distinguish between ancient groups and others who migrated into Egypt later. Ancient groups are basal upstream in the tree and have their own independent mutations, more recent migrations tend to be less rare and have recognizable downstream mutations.

Theramster
08-17-2016, 01:01 AM
No but i mean you said that my line is ancient semitic in general. So you are saying my ydna line is ancient semitic that has been in egypt for thousands of years...

That's what I believe is true.

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 01:03 AM
You are amazing! Thank you for educating me so much!

Theramster
08-17-2016, 01:08 AM
You are amazing! Thank you for educating me so much!

Thanks for sharing your results with me and for allowing me to learn more about our gene pool. You put flesh and blood with your results to theories one read in books. Cheers.

nee4speed111
08-17-2016, 05:46 AM
How fascinating, I wonder if other J1e copts are similar to lifeisdandy's results?

jof2311
08-17-2016, 09:20 AM
Hey Lifeisdandy, congratulation for those rare results wich will learn us more about the history of J1 lineage in North Africa, not only in Egypt ..
Have you in your Family or Coptic entourage somes peoples tested E-V65+ haplogroup?
Thank you.

JoF.

Artmar
08-17-2016, 10:21 AM
Does this show?

PICTURE

Nevermind, I thought we are speaking of V65 :P. Congratulations on your J1-P58 result. What's your status for Y4067 or L817/L818? You can still be this: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y4067/

jof2311
08-17-2016, 10:29 AM
Hi Artmar,
yes the subject of the post was on V65, among coptics.. we have few informations on this clade, indeed It is often associated with J1 in Egypt and in Maghreb too(Tunisia , Libya , Morocco), if J1 is ancient in these places , we can learn on V65 origin and spread wich can be old too in the same places.


JoF.

Theramster
08-17-2016, 12:28 PM
Nevermind, I thought we are speaking of V65 :P. Congratulations on your J1-P58 result. What's your status for Y4067 or L817/L818? You can still be this: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y4067/

I assume it's negative unless ftDNA misses it.

Theramster
08-17-2016, 12:37 PM
How fascinating, I wonder if other J1e copts are similar to lifeisdandy's results?

Given the trend of Copts showing rare basal upstream subclades, unless someone from each hg tests with BigY and the others test their STR values for comparisons we can never tell. Since they're rare, we can't find sufficient data elsewhere. I recommend someone from the E haplogroup take BigY and share their results and STR values. Lifeisdandy did the J and we have her dad's STR values. I did the R and I have STR values. We're missing a Coptic hg E.

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 01:40 PM
[QUOTE=Theramster;180343]I assume it's negative unless ftDNA misses it.[/QUOTEYou are right..im negative for those..

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 01:41 PM
Nevermind, I thought we are speaking of V65 :P. Congratulations on your J1-P58 result. What's your status for Y4067 or L817/L818? You can still be this: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y4067/

I am negative for those snps...

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 01:42 PM
Given the trend of Copts showing rare basal upstream subclades, unless someone from each hg tests with BigY and the others test their STR values for comparisons we can never tell. Since they're rare, we can't find sufficient data elsewhere. I recommend someone from the E haplogroup take BigY and share their results and STR values. Lifeisdandy did the J and we have her dad's STR values. I did the R and I have STR values. We're missing a Coptic hg E.

As Agamemnon said..my line might have been very common in ancient times but through war, famine etc..our line is rare now..

Theramster
08-17-2016, 01:59 PM
As Agamemnon said..my line might have been very common in ancient times but through war, famine etc..our line is rare now..

A theory is beginning to emerge in my mind, that somehow Egypt has been a shelter for ancient people ( the theoretical basal groups which scientists keep digging up from Ancient skeletons worldwide) who went extinct elsewhere and who together were responsible for the Ancient Egypt of history. Obviously this is just a thought subject to further substantiation with results. Copts are important in this regard due to Genetic isolation and continuity in same location for thousands of years. Other Egyptians will show the effect of recent waves of migrants with similar hg signatures as we see elsewhere in the world (those that didn't go extinct and continued to accumulate further mutations).

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 02:07 PM
A theory is beginning to emerge in my mind, that somehow Egypt has been a shelter for ancient people ( the theoretical basal groups which scientists keep digging up from Ancient skeletons worldwide) who went extinct elsewhere and who together were responsible for the Ancient Egypt of history. Obviously this is just a thought subject to further substantiation with results. Copts are important in this regard due to Genetic isolation and continuity in same location for thousands of years. Other Egyptians will show the effect of recent waves of migrants with similar hg signatures as we see elsewhere in the world (those that didn't go extinct and continued to accumulate further mutations).

So you mean that maybe tumultuous situations in the near east might have resulted in Egypt being a safe haven at some point for these basal type groups that eventually became a part of ancient egypt's population. I think we should encourage more copts to get tested as they may hold more secrets into ancient egyptian's past..

Theramster
08-17-2016, 02:33 PM
So you mean that maybe tumultuous situations in the near east might have resulted in Egypt being a safe haven at some point for these basal type groups that eventually became a part of ancient egypt's population. I think we should encourage more copts to get tested as they may hold more secrets into ancient egyptian's past..

We're really talking about prehistory. Not just the Near East but elsewhere as well. Conditions may have gotten tough for various reasons in different parts in the world which led to them finding shelter in Egypt. There they used their skills learned from being accustomed to different environments which in time forged what we know as the civilization of the pyramid builders. These people survived and thrived as their relatives who stayed behind or migrated elsewhere died out and were replaced by other subclades that eventually populated the world. So I totally agree Copts jokingly may be the Jurassic park of mankind :)

Theramster
08-17-2016, 02:42 PM
We're really talking about prehistory. ...So I totally agree Copts jokingly may be the Jurassic park of mankind :)

It's as if those hg thought to be extinct had continued to live without anyone knowing anything about them. Obviously Jurassic park consisted of clones of extinct creatures. In the case of the Copts they never went extinct in the first place.

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 02:56 PM
It's as if those hg thought to be extinct had continued to live without anyone knowing anything about them. Obviously Jurassic park consisted of clones of extinct creatures. In the case of the Copts they never went extinct in the first place.

Exactly! Copts are a window to the ancient world genetically... ! That is why more of us should get tested! But it just goes to show just how involved semites were in the initial beginnings of egypt..

Theramster
08-17-2016, 03:09 PM
Exactly! Copts are a window to the ancient world genetically... ! That is why more of us should get tested! But it just goes to show just how involved semites were in the initial beginnings of egypt..

It's actually not surprising at all given the Egyptian language is hamito-semitic or Afroasiatic. A branch of its own, not just Hamitic-African but also Asiatic-Semitic. There were Proto-Indo-European as well albeit with lesser frequencies. So if we take into account and assume the veracity of the old kingdom samples I posted earlier, we find an R-M173 which is now the root of all Russia and Europe, and vast portions of Asia. And if we assume veracity of New Kingdom Tutankhamun result, we're faced with an R1b Pharaoh, further downstream subclade of R-M173, a result that's the root hg of half of Western Europe. R is the rarest in Egypt followed by more numerous J and the greater majority should be E. Among these there will be basal ancient types and others will be later arrivals as I explained earlier. Cheers.

jof2311
08-17-2016, 03:12 PM
"Majority should be E" ,you think on E-m78 suclades?

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 03:16 PM
It's actually not surprising at all given the Egyptian language is hamito-semitic or Afroasiatic. A branch of its own, not just Hamitic-African but also Asiatic-Semitic. There were Proto-Indo-European as well albeit with lesser frequencies. So if we take into account and assume the veracity of the old kingdom samples I posted earlier, we find an R-M173 which is now the root of all Russia and Europe, and vast portions of Asia. And if we assume veracity of New Kingdom Tutankhamun result, we're faced with an R1b Pharaoh, further downstream subclade of R-M173, a result that's the root hg of half of Western Europe. R is the rarest in Egypt followed by more numerous J and the greater majority should be E. Among these there will be basal ancient types and others will be later arrivals as I explained earlier. Cheers.

Isnt 20% of egyptian haplogroups is j1? or J in general?

Theramster
08-17-2016, 03:16 PM
"Majority should be E" ,you think on E-m78 suclades?

We have to await further testing. At least few BigY (Next generation sequencing) with STR's and many just testing STR'S with ftDNA for comparison.

Theramster
08-17-2016, 03:24 PM
Isnt 20% of egyptian haplogroups is j1? or J in general?

Lifeisdandy & jof2311

https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/egyptian-y-dna-and-mt-dna-reference/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_history_of_Egypt

Here are Y-DNA info about % for E & J.
As for J I'd expect much of it to be of Arab recent origin. That's something analogous to recognizable Arab tribes.

jof2311
08-17-2016, 03:57 PM
Thanks Theramster, Somes Upper Egyptians samples seems to reach over 30% of M78,
and somme J1 here are attribued to the CAPSIAN culture expansion, means very much older than the Arab expansion, interesting..

JoF.

Theramster
08-17-2016, 04:11 PM
Isnt 20% of egyptian haplogroups is j1? or J in general?

Check out the FTDNA Egypt group

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/egypt?iframe=yresults

Look how many of them proudly showcase their Arab descent and their Arab surnames. They are self-consciously of Arab descent. These are the recent migrants I was talking about. Historically entire Arab tribes migrated to the Nile Valley after the 7th century and they were responsible for collecting the Poll taxes from Copts and to keep them subdued. Interesting really.

Theramster
08-17-2016, 04:18 PM
Check out the FTDNA Egypt group

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/egypt?iframe=yresults

Look how many of them proudly showcase their Arab descent and their Arab surnames. They are self-consciously of Arab descent. These are the recent migrants I was talking about. Historically entire Arab tribes migrated to the Nile Valley after the 7th century and they were responsible for collecting the Poll taxes from Copts and to keep them subdued. Interesting really.

11026
11027

11027

Theramster
08-17-2016, 04:29 PM
11026
11027

11027

11028110281102911029
The contrast couldn't be greater. While the Arab tribesman takes pride in his dagger under his belt. The Copt carries his writing tools tucked into his belt. These are real life 19th century portraits.

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 04:49 PM
11028110281102911029
The contrast couldn't be greater. While the Arab tribesman takes pride in his dagger under his belt. The Copt carries his writing tools tucked into his belt. These are real life 19th century portraits.

wow...i always wanted to see how they dressed...what a difference...i dont think my fathers line is from this line of semites...

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 05:26 PM
I'd like to think I descend from ancient semites like the amorites, canaanites, hyksos or akkadians who moved to Egypt..

Theramster
08-17-2016, 07:03 PM
wow...i always wanted to see how they dressed...what a difference...i dont think my fathers line is from this line of semites...

The dark turban and belt were meant to mark Copts for ritual humiliation. These dress codes were finally removed when the Western powers pushed the Ottomans to revoke them. Copts were forbidden to bear arms. So they specialized in writing and accounting and formed the backbone of the bureaucracy. They used mathematical symbols they alone could understand as an intellectual defense mechanism, so rulers couldn't do without them. :)

Theramster
08-17-2016, 07:10 PM
I'd like to think I descend from ancient semites like the amorites, canaanites, hyksos or akkadians who moved to Egypt..

Your line may even precede them. All these like the Ancient Egyptians are historical people. And while they may have at some later time influenced the historic Egyptian gene pool, I think Egypt being an ancient shelter theory is most likely prehistoric. It also explains how historic Egypt suddenly emerged so complete with writing and advanced technique. It synthesized diverse skills of many ancient people, African, semitic and Proto-Indo-European to forge something utterly unique which is now recognizable as Ancient Egypt especially the Old Kingdom period, which later became the golden age which haunted the imaginations of later ancient Egyptians to be emulated and copied.

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 07:14 PM
The dark turban and belt were meant to mark Copts for ritual humiliation. These dress codes were finally removed when the Western powers pushed the Ottomans to revoke them. Copts were forbidden to bear arms. So they specialized in writing and accounting and formed the backbone of the bureaucracy. They used mathematical symbols they alone could understand as an intellectual defense mechanism, so rulers couldn't do without them. :)

wow I didn't know all that...we were quite a smart bunch eh??

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 07:26 PM
Your line may even precede them. All these like the Ancient Egyptians are historical people. And while they may have at some later time influenced the historic Egyptian gene pool, I think Egypt being an ancient shelter theory is most likely prehistoric. It also explains how historic Egypt suddenly emerged so complete with writing and advanced technique. It synthesized diverse skills of many ancient people, African, semitic and Proto-Indo-European to forge something utterly unique which is now recognizable as Ancient Egypt especially the Old Kingdom period, which later became the golden age which haunted the imaginations of later ancient Egyptians to be emulated and copied.

I am not sure that my line precedes them because J1-P58 is thought to have been the main carriers for semitic languages so the earliest semitic speakers were akkadians and canaanites.. or maybe my line is proto semitic.. but either way its sure my ancestors spoke some type of semitic language...

Theramster
08-17-2016, 07:42 PM
I am not sure that my line precedes them because J1-P58 is thought to have been the main carriers for semitic languages so the earliest semitic speakers were akkadians and canaanites.. or maybe my line is proto semitic.. but either way its sure my ancestors spoke some type of semitic language...

I'll let someone more knowledgeable than I am speak about Semitic languages. Agamemnon can add to our knowledge about this issue.

Yet when I speak of Semites I usually have in mind the patrilineal line that gave rise to Semitic languages. Haplogroups long predate language classifications. Obviously J E & R are different patrilineal lines that in time developed their own peculiar recognizable cultures and languages. My focus is on descent and genetics since I see this as the root from which other phenomena like language, temperament and worldview derive. In the sense that Semites speak Semitic languages because they're Semite not they are Semites because they speak Semitic languages. Cheers.

jof2311
08-17-2016, 07:57 PM
Lifeisdandy how can you be sure that your ancestors spoke semitic linguage?
It could be another Afroasiatic linguage supported by J1 lineage..

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 08:00 PM
Lifeisdandy how can you be sure that your ancestors spoke semitic linguage?
It could be another Afroasiatic linguage supported by J1 lineage..

Based on what agamemnon told me...my cluster is 4500 years old which corresponds to when the earliest semitic language came out... and j1-p58 snp is tied to semitic languages based on many studies...I would let agamemnon talk more about it.

lifeisdandy
08-17-2016, 08:28 PM
This was our convo:

"Quote Originally Posted by lifeisdandy
Would you say that all copts with the j1 haplogroups descend from some type of arabian tribe?
Not all, some is bound to be older and related to the Hyksos, so no, not all the Coptic J1 is Arabian in origin, some of it might also be Levantine, or even older (Egyptian per se).

Quote Originally Posted by lifeisdandy
Also what is your thought process on my ancestor being potentially of a northern arabian tribe... I just want to envision the time line.
An origin in Ancient North Arabian tribes makes the most sense when I look at your cluster, since it probably originated in NW Arabia. Old North Arabian languages were very archaic relatives of Old Arabic which, in turn, were replaced and gradually erased as Old Arabic (and its descendants) spread out, languages such as "Thamudic" (a label which includes several different dialects), Dedanitic, Taymanitic, Hasaitic, Safaitic (which is the closest to Arabic), Dumaitic and Oasis North Arabian.
I'm quite certain your paternal ancestors spoke one (or several) of these languages, I've read a lot about Old North Arabian, if you have questions about this too just ask, I'm a student in linguistics after all "

Theramster
08-17-2016, 08:53 PM
Based on what agamemnon told me...my cluster is 4500 years old which corresponds to when the earliest semitic language came out... and j1-p58 snp is tied to semitic languages based on many studies...I would let agamemnon talk more about it.

More clarification: History begins with writing. Historic people are those who are witnessed in written records. How then do we figure out when a certain branch of language emerged? It has to be by written records or primitive deciphered symbols. But we know that languages must have preceded writing, so it's perfectly conceivable for a language to be spoken before it's ever witnessed in record. So when I made distinction between history and prehistory, and historic people like the Akkadians and the Ancient Egyptians and their prehistoric patrilineal lines, in my mind prehistory precedes history, spoken language precedes writing and our knowledge of it and finally people and their lines precede what they produced. So to say that Egypt of history was a synthesis of prehistoric ancient lines evidenced by the presence of basal upstream clades is to say that it is a unique amalgam of what elsewhere had disparate lives. To me it explains the rise of Ancient Egypt, a sort of intellectual multiplier effect occured here and nowhere else. If in doubt check out the pyramids and the logistics needed to accomplish the feats of the Gizah plateau. This required a cumulative genius of vision, design, economic surplus, allocation of resources and a solid command structure.

Theramster
08-19-2016, 03:04 PM
I created a hypothetical Coptic Ancestor using Lazarus out of all the Coptic samples available to me and the result is pretty good
Meet Origen kit# LX375611

I also constructed a Levantine Christian Ancestor out of fewer kits. Results are decent.

Meet Eusebius kit # LX001680

You can use these kits in Gedmatch as any other kit for one-to-one comparisons and admixture.

I was very satisfied with the Coptic Ancestor Origen. If any Copts or Levantine Christians wish to contribute their kits in this hypothetical Ancestor project then please share kit # in public or private.

Whether Copts or Levantine Christians, we're talking about ethno-religious groups with thousands of years of endogamous and genetic isolation from surrounding populations. Within these 2 large groups there are subgroups subject to the same logic. I can more confidently speak of Copts that there is indeed a North-South axis, a sort of variation along a common theme, probably extending back to Ancient time. Linguistically there were two main dialects Bohairic (North) and Sahidic (South). Due to historic adverse conditions Copts tended to cluster in middle Egypt ( Assiut- Minya) by the 15th century, which brought together North and South groups, till modern times when they dispersed all over. All of this is not strange since Ancient Egyptians identified themselves as the people of 'two lands', upper and lower. In Hebrew Egypt is a dual noun. So Eastern African influences were expected southward and Mediterranean and Levantine northward. But as mentioned before all today's Copts are descended from few hundred thousands people in the19th century who clustered in Middle Egypt. All of this makes for a very interesting story

Theramster
08-19-2016, 07:47 PM
11073
11074
Masai people (Nilotic) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai_people
GedrosiaDNA Neolithic k14 for Origen (Coptic Ancestor)
Oracle:
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% BedouinB +50% Bell_Beaker_LN4 @ 23.132704


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% BedouinB +25% LBK_EN1 +25% Masai @ 20.355732


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 + Stuttgart @ 9.424401
2 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 + Hungarian_BA5 @ 9.482982
3 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 + Hungarian_BA7 @ 9.871270
4 BedouinB + LBK_EN1 + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 @ 9.965930
5 BedouinB + LBK_EN2 + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 @ 10.114995
6 BedouinB + Bell_Beaker_LN4 + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 @ 10.211856
7 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA2 + Hungarian_BA3 @ 10.404025
8 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 + Hungarian_BA3 @ 10.611888
9 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA5 + Hungarian_BA7 @ 10.624309
10 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA5 + Nordic_BA1 @ 10.804238
11 BedouinB + Masai + Corded_Ware_BA3 + Hungarian_BA3 @ 11.162329
12 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA7 + Stuttgart @ 11.244805
13 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA4 + Hungarian_BA5 @ 11.319957
14 BedouinB + HungaryGamba_BA1 + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 @ 11.437494
15 BedouinB + Masai + Nordic_BA1 + Stuttgart @ 11.484195
16 BedouinB + Bell_Beaker_LN4 + Masai + Hungarian_BA5 @ 11.560937
17 BedouinB + HungaryGamba_IA + Masai + Hungarian_BA5 @ 11.964485
18 BedouinB + HungaryGamba_IA + Masai + Stuttgart @ 12.244878
19 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA4 + Stuttgart @ 12.361081
20 BedouinB + Masai + Bell_Beaker_BA2 + Hungarian_BA5 @ 12.376483

The Oracle results are deliciously informative. The combination of Proto-Indo-Europeans, Semitic and Nilotic may indeed give us something resembling the Ancient Egyptians.

nee4speed111
08-20-2016, 05:39 AM
You should probably use a calculator that has the new ancient middle eastern samples if you want to be accurate, this one contains none of the populations from the levant or Iran, so its not going to be very accurate. Also I don't think Stuggart is proto-indo-european, he pre-dates them by quite a bit and doesn't have any steppe ancestry as far as I am aware, so its almost impossible for him to be proto-indo-european. He is mostly Neolithic Anatolian farmer.

Theramster
08-20-2016, 03:11 PM
You should probably use a calculator that has the new ancient middle eastern samples if you want to be accurate, this one contains none of the populations from the levant or Iran, so its not going to be very accurate. Also I don't think Stuggart is proto-indo-european, he pre-dates them by quite a bit and doesn't have any steppe ancestry as far as I am aware, so its almost impossible for him to be proto-indo-european. He is mostly Neolithic Anatolian farmer.
You have the kit numbers. Please experiment with them as you see fit and share your ideas.

As for who's Proto-Indo-European, I refer you to an earlier thread post here about how I define a Semite. I have a different common sense set of criteria when it comes to these terms.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6532-Egyptian-Copts-high-in-E-V65&p=180637&viewfull=1#post180637


You should probably use a calculator that has the new ancient middle eastern samples if you want to be accurate, this one contains none of the populations from the levant or Iran, so its not going to be very accurate. Also I don't think Stuggart is proto-indo-european, he pre-dates them by quite a bit and doesn't have any steppe ancestry as far as I am aware, so its almost impossible for him to be proto-indo-european. He is mostly Neolithic Anatolian farmer.


You have the kit numbers. Please experiment with them as you see fit and share your ideas.

As for who's Proto-Indo-European, I refer you to an earlier thread post here about how I define a Semite. I have a different common sense set of criteria when it comes to these terms. (POST 111 & 107)

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6532-Egyptian-Copts-high-in-E-V65&p=180637&viewfull=1#post180637


Now my criteria make arguing about linguistic dating really irrelevant as long as precursor real 'proto' populations were located. If we wipe out all historical knowledge as is the case with ancient prehistory up to this point, and we examine Copts, linguistically they don't speak their ancestral language (they speak some dialect of a Semitic language) which we'll never know without history, their genes from skeletons or living samples are the real identifier. A smart scientist would be able to reconstruct ancestral worldview and language from the botched up Arabic dialect they speak by comparing it to other Arabic dialects and so on. The point made here that in absence of written records, we are only left with DNA evidence linked to locations, as precursors to later populations of same locale. So we identify the earlier by the later, by saying they're proto or pre-proto.

Stuttgart is much later than Karelia and I don't know what to call the Karelian sample from a genetic point of view other than Proto-Indo-European. I'll let experts wrestle with linguistics.

11090
11091





http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30956-Genetics-Archaeology-amp-Linguistics-support-PIE-homeland

Theramster
08-20-2016, 03:27 PM
You should probably use a calculator that has the new ancient middle eastern samples if you want to be accurate, this one contains none of the populations from the levant or Iran, so its not going to be very accurate. Also I don't think Stuggart is proto-indo-european, he pre-dates them by quite a bit and doesn't have any steppe ancestry as far as I am aware, so its almost impossible for him to be proto-indo-european. He is mostly Neolithic Anatolian farmer.

Whether the migration route is northward ( Anatolia ->Europe) or southward ( Europe->Anatolia) it's really irrelevant when it comes to the Egyptian case. Whether these European populations came from the Steppe or from Anatolia, and these successive waves of migration forged Indo-European speaking people or whatever other details which may be important for a European, it just means there's a racial input from the North into Egypt which was instrumental in forging what later became Ancient Egypt, as there is a racial African Nilotic substratum and a Near eastern input which I like to call Semitic.

Theramster
08-20-2016, 04:36 PM
11073
11074
Masai people (Nilotic) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai_people
GedrosiaDNA Neolithic k14 for Origen (Coptic Ancestor)
Oracle:
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% BedouinB +50% Bell_Beaker_LN4 @ 23.132704


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% BedouinB +25% LBK_EN1 +25% Masai @ 20.355732


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 + Stuttgart @ 9.424401
2 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 + Hungarian_BA5 @ 9.482982
3 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 + Hungarian_BA7 @ 9.871270
4 BedouinB + LBK_EN1 + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 @ 9.965930
5 BedouinB + LBK_EN2 + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 @ 10.114995
6 BedouinB + Bell_Beaker_LN4 + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 @ 10.211856
7 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA2 + Hungarian_BA3 @ 10.404025
8 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 + Hungarian_BA3 @ 10.611888
9 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA5 + Hungarian_BA7 @ 10.624309
10 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA5 + Nordic_BA1 @ 10.804238
11 BedouinB + Masai + Corded_Ware_BA3 + Hungarian_BA3 @ 11.162329
12 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA7 + Stuttgart @ 11.244805
13 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA4 + Hungarian_BA5 @ 11.319957
14 BedouinB + HungaryGamba_BA1 + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 @ 11.437494
15 BedouinB + Masai + Nordic_BA1 + Stuttgart @ 11.484195
16 BedouinB + Bell_Beaker_LN4 + Masai + Hungarian_BA5 @ 11.560937
17 BedouinB + HungaryGamba_IA + Masai + Hungarian_BA5 @ 11.964485
18 BedouinB + HungaryGamba_IA + Masai + Stuttgart @ 12.244878
19 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA4 + Stuttgart @ 12.361081
20 BedouinB + Masai + Bell_Beaker_BA2 + Hungarian_BA5 @ 12.376483

The Oracle results are deliciously informative. The combination of Proto-Indo-Europeans, Semitic and Nilotic may indeed give us something resembling the Ancient Egyptians.

Information on Hungarian samples

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30570-Ancient-DNA-from-Hungary-Christine-Gamba-et-al

Theramster
08-20-2016, 04:53 PM
Information on Hungarian samples

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30570-Ancient-DNA-from-Hungary-Christine-Gamba-et-al

11094
Taken from this paper here
http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2012/09/06/genetics.112.145037.figures-only
about Ancient admixture in Europe

Theramster
08-20-2016, 05:07 PM
11094
Taken from this paper here
http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2012/09/06/genetics.112.145037.figures-only
about Ancient admixture in Europe

11095

Taken from http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/full/nature13673.html#ref3

Theramster
08-20-2016, 08:25 PM
11073
11074
Masai people (Nilotic) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai_people
GedrosiaDNA Neolithic k14 for Origen (Coptic Ancestor)
Oracle:
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% BedouinB +50% Bell_Beaker_LN4 @ 23.132704


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% BedouinB +25% LBK_EN1 +25% Masai @ 20.355732


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 + Stuttgart @ 9.424401
2 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 + Hungarian_BA5 @ 9.482982
3 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 + Hungarian_BA7 @ 9.871270
4 BedouinB + LBK_EN1 + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 @ 9.965930
5 BedouinB + LBK_EN2 + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 @ 10.114995
6 BedouinB + Bell_Beaker_LN4 + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 @ 10.211856
7 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA2 + Hungarian_BA3 @ 10.404025
8 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 + Hungarian_BA3 @ 10.611888
9 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA5 + Hungarian_BA7 @ 10.624309
10 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA5 + Nordic_BA1 @ 10.804238
11 BedouinB + Masai + Corded_Ware_BA3 + Hungarian_BA3 @ 11.162329
12 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA7 + Stuttgart @ 11.244805
13 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA4 + Hungarian_BA5 @ 11.319957
14 BedouinB + HungaryGamba_BA1 + Masai + Hungarian_BA3 @ 11.437494
15 BedouinB + Masai + Nordic_BA1 + Stuttgart @ 11.484195
16 BedouinB + Bell_Beaker_LN4 + Masai + Hungarian_BA5 @ 11.560937
17 BedouinB + HungaryGamba_IA + Masai + Hungarian_BA5 @ 11.964485
18 BedouinB + HungaryGamba_IA + Masai + Stuttgart @ 12.244878
19 BedouinB + Masai + Hungarian_BA4 + Stuttgart @ 12.361081
20 BedouinB + Masai + Bell_Beaker_BA2 + Hungarian_BA5 @ 12.376483

The Oracle results are deliciously informative. The combination of Proto-Indo-Europeans, Semitic and Nilotic may indeed give us something resembling the Ancient Egyptians.

More to consider about Origen ( Hypothetical Coptic Ancestor)


What is interesting is the presence of Kalash ( Current Indigenous Indo-European), Afiansevo-Yamnaya (Ancient Indo-European) and strangely Amerindian. All amount to some 9%.

As shown above Ancient Europe had 3 differentiated populations which mixed together to forge Indo-European speaking people. One component is the Early Farmers, another Western hunter gatherers ( that didn't contribute to Near East) and a North Eurasian component (Mesolithic European hunter - please see above).

111031110511104
11106

When we look at Egyptian Y-DNA breakdown, we'll find haplogroups associated with Neolithic European farmers (G - J2 - E), a minority (Q-P-R- some 6%) associated with Indo-Europeans or their ancestors, a handsome third of African haplogroup (A - E which could be Early neolithic farmers as well!) and finally some third of haplogroups associated with Semites/South West Asian like J and subclades. This is more or less pretty consistent with the calculator's results. Obviously there are many holes in our knowledge about specific haplogroups and their ancient associations, that's why I couldn't specify the specific associations of k or I or certain E subclades. But generally a picture is emerging of constituent contributors to Ancient Egyptian gene pool. It's also intresting that the Hungarian ancient samples belong to Y hg I and J2.( See Oracle results above)

Link to North Eurasian ancient origin of Mesolithic ancient Europeans and Amerindians here
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/full/nature12736.html

Theramster
08-20-2016, 09:39 PM
More to consider about Origen ( Hypothetical Coptic Ancestor)


What is interesting is the presence of Kalash ( Current Indigenous Indo-European), Afiansevo-Yamnaya (Ancient Indo-European) and strangely Amerindian. All amount to some 9%.

As shown above Ancient Europe had 3 differentiated populations which mixed together to forge Indo-European speaking people. One component is the Early Farmers, another Western hunter gatherers ( that didn't contribute to Near East) and a North Eurasian component (Mesolithic European hunter - please see above).

111031110511104
11106

When we look at Egyptian Y-DNA breakdown, we'll find haplogroups associated with Neolithic European farmers (G - J2 - E), a minority (Q-P-R- some 6%) associated with Indo-Europeans or their ancestors, a handsome third of African haplogroup (A - E which could be Early neolithic farmers as well!) and finally some third of haplogroups associated with Semites/South West Asian like J and subclades. This is more or less pretty consistent with the calculator's results. Obviously there are many holes in our knowledge about specific haplogroups and their ancient associations, that's why I couldn't specify the specific associations of k or I or certain E subclades. But generally a picture is emerging of constituent contributors to Ancient Egyptian gene pool. It's also intresting that the Hungarian ancient samples belong to Y hg I and J2.( See Oracle results above)

Link to North Eurasian ancient origin to Mesolithic ancient Europeans and Amerindians here
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/full/nature12736.html

11108

This is Origen ( hypothetical Coptic ancestor) GedrosiaDNA Neolithic k14 breakdown

Theramster
08-20-2016, 09:59 PM
11108

This is Origen ( hypothetical Coptic ancestor) GedrosiaDNA Neolithic k14 breakdown

Finally this is Egyptian ( Not specifically Copts) Y DNA breakdown
11109
Pretty similar ( not identitical) to Origen breakdown
11110
When known Y DNA associations are taken into account as shown above
I haven't figured out the South Indian association yet. Amerindian connection was interesting (above).

Theramster
08-21-2016, 03:52 AM
Finally this is Egyptian ( Not specifically Copts) Y DNA breakdown
11109
Pretty similar ( not identitical) to Origen breakdown
11110
When known Y DNA associations are taken into account as shown above
I haven't figured out the South Indian association yet. Amerindian connection was interesting (above).

11111

I made a summary of everything I discussed today and made a comparison between Origen and Eusebius with probable Gene flow. Cheers.

Theramster
08-21-2016, 03:13 PM
11122
Haplogroup E haplotree with subclade association to various people. Early Europeans Farmers belonged to same root E1b1b?. Further SNP testing in this group among Copts and Levantines will prove very informative.

lifeisdandy
08-29-2016, 01:12 AM
My results in comparison:

Population
N_Amerindian -
Afansievo_Yamnaya 0.48
Kalash 4.59
Siberian -
S_Amerindian -
Sub_Saharan 2.34
SE_Asian 1.55
E_African 13.73
SW_Asian 37.48
Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 14.92
SHG_WHG -
Early_European_Farmers 22.39
S_Indian 2.52
Papuan -

Theramster
08-29-2016, 04:58 PM
My results in comparison:

Population
N_Amerindian -
Afansievo_Yamnaya 0.48
Kalash 4.59
Siberian -
S_Amerindian -
Sub_Saharan 2.34
SE_Asian 1.55
E_African 13.73
SW_Asian 37.48
Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 14.92
SHG_WHG -
Early_European_Farmers 22.39
S_Indian 2.52
Papuan -

Hi lifeisdandy,
I believe I used your kit in this construction. If you even look more closely by chromosome ( 2nd option on the calculator) you'll find SHG & WHG reaching up to 5.9% in chromosome 2 and up to 3% in others. It all confirms what has been discussed here and the other 'Coptic Oracle result' group. Picture is becoming even sharper.

Theramster
08-29-2016, 05:01 PM
My results in comparison:

Population
N_Amerindian -
Afansievo_Yamnaya 0.48
Kalash 4.59
Siberian -
S_Amerindian -
Sub_Saharan 2.34
SE_Asian 1.55
E_African 13.73
SW_Asian 37.48
Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 14.92
SHG_WHG -
Early_European_Farmers 22.39
S_Indian 2.52
Papuan -

You'll also find North Amerindian up to 4% on chromosome 17 and up to 3% on others. Again further confirming ideas discussed by me in both groups about Ancient Egyptian origin.

Theramster
08-29-2016, 07:48 PM
I want to take our Coptic genomics investigation to the next level. Let's look for specific genes and see what the Coptic genotypes are. I desire whatever shared genotypes to remain anonymous. So even if you share your own, please keep them impersonal. The only aim here is to see what Copts are made of. Please solicit the genotypes of other fellow Copts in order to get an idea about Coptic genomics.
I selected 3 genes
1.RS1426654 used to determine ancestry European, African or Asian. Related to skin pigmentation and mutation in this gene dates back to probably a single ancestor 10000 years ago.
2. RS1906252 associated with g ( general intelligence and cognitive abilities).
3. RS1815739 associated with athleticism

Please gather any genotype you can for these 3 genes. The Genotypes can be found by searching for the gene (above) in the raw data in 23andme. Once enough genotypes have been collected I will discuss the meaning of the results. Copts are very interesting since they are both African and Eurasian people. I truly hope for decent participation. Thank you.

lifeisdandy
08-29-2016, 09:04 PM
This is whats written about coptic genetics in wikipedia which is not accurAte at all:

"The Copts of Egypt have distinct genetics from the Arab majority, with a lower degree of Middle Eastern ancestry and higher levels of North African and sub-Saharan African genetics. A 2008 study of a Copts of Egyptian descent (though living in Sudan) found relatively high frequencies of the Sub-Saharan Haplogroup B. According to the study, the presence of Sub-Saharan haplogroups may also be consistent with the historical record in which southern Egypt was colonized by Nilotic populations during the early state formation.[39]"

Are they comparing with non coptic egyptians or arabians?

Theramster
08-29-2016, 11:25 PM
This is whats written about coptic genetics in wikipedia which is not accurAte at all:

"The Copts of Egypt have distinct genetics from the Arab majority, with a lower degree of Middle Eastern ancestry and higher levels of North African and sub-Saharan African genetics. A 2008 study of a Copts of Egyptian descent (though living in Sudan) found relatively high frequencies of the Sub-Saharan Haplogroup B. According to the study, the presence of Sub-Saharan haplogroups may also be consistent with the historical record in which southern Egypt was colonized by Nilotic populations during the early state formation.[39]"

Are they comparing with non coptic egyptians or arabians?

I didn't want to argue this any further on the other group (you can go read the discussion in the 'Coptic Oracle result'). To summarize, I don't think the Sudanese Copts represent all Copts. They only represent the Southern end of the spectrum. I can see that the common wisdom now is to equate these results with the Coptic profile. Whoever is like them among the Copts is considered pure Copt, and whoever differs is an outlier. In fact Sudanese Copts resemble a sub-profile of Copts, but there are others. All together give us something like Origen, which is a construction of common genetic heritage of all participants. Regardless online bloggers are using you in relation to this study, you can read what they had to say here
http://anthromadness.blogspot.ca/2015/06/copts-example-of-pre-islamic-and-arab.html?m=1

And yes Copts do have proto-indo-european, ancient North Eurasian, and other precursors to populations in Eurasia & the Americas and even Western hunter gatherers at small levels. These are not outliers. They're there in the genepool at small amounts consistent with the Y-DNA evidence. They get shuffled or selected or whatever so some have them more than others but most have them in chromosome by chromosome analysis ( as I pointed it out earlier regarding your kit).They also have Semitic and African DNA. The least component is the African albeit it's very significant.

The only conclusion they drew is that Copts are more Eurasian and were not affected by Muslim subsaharan slave trade. Now it's not news that Copts must be different from non-Copts, but to use the Sudanese Copts and ignore the mainland strikes me as not so wise. Why should I take these Coptic migrants as the measure of what is Coptic and ignore other Mediterranean or even European Coptic migrants?

Theramster
08-30-2016, 12:41 AM
This is whats written about coptic genetics in wikipedia which is not accurAte at all:

"The Copts of Egypt have distinct genetics from the Arab majority, with a lower degree of Middle Eastern ancestry and higher levels of North African and sub-Saharan African genetics. A 2008 study of a Copts of Egyptian descent (though living in Sudan) found relatively high frequencies of the Sub-Saharan Haplogroup B. According to the study, the presence of Sub-Saharan haplogroups may also be consistent with the historical record in which southern Egypt was colonized by Nilotic populations during the early state formation.[39]"

Are they comparing with non coptic egyptians or arabians?

11250

Lifeisdandy
In the blog they assume you have no ANE like the Sudanese Copts.
Here are your results by chromosome
11251

To make a claim that the Coptic gene pool has no Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) ancestry is factually wrong when up to 8% of your chromosome 19 is of this ancestry. There is a huge difference between 'absent from genepool' and 'small representation in genepool' when it comes to determining ancestry. Your case is similar to other Copts.

lifeisdandy
08-30-2016, 01:28 AM
And just so I understand this ANE comes from where exactly?

lifeisdandy
08-30-2016, 01:30 AM
I think the african is ancient though as well as the south west asian and not as recent as 500 years. In 23ane I score 0% ssa which leads me to believe our african is from ancient times.

nee4speed111
08-30-2016, 02:15 AM
Measuring a component by individual chromosomes instead of the total admixture figure is flawed, as not all the chromosomes are the same size and they tend to contain alot of noise. The Sudanese copts would also get ANE if you did it by chromosome, and lifeisdandy would hav West African and ASE if we went by single chromosome figures. There is a reason nobody examines ancestry by single chromosomes, as the general rule of thumb is that things less than 1% are just what is called noise, and thus are not real segments.

Or to demonstrate, here are the results of a Nigerian who scores 100% African when he does African specific tests, here are his results chromosome by chromosome on the ANE K7 test

http://i.imgur.com/pIrWkys.jpg

Now I know this Nigerian dude is 100% African, as his results on tests designed for africans specifically such as Ethiohelix he scores 100% African components, and if you put his results through a D-stat he wouls also be 100% African. But according to that chromosome painting, He has WHG, ANE and ASE, all wildly implausible things for a Nigerian to have.

Theramster
08-30-2016, 03:18 AM
Measuring a component by individual chromosomes instead of the total admixture figure is flawed, as not all the chromosomes are the same size and they tend to contain alot of noise

This is simply to evade the evidence since you still trust the total average of all chromosomes, taking size into account.


There is a reason nobody examines ancestry by single chromosomes, as the general rule of thumb is that things less than 1% are just what is called noise, and thus are not real segments.
And that's equally the reason why they miss a lot of clues. You're pretty good at informing me about the common wisdom. I question these presuppositions because they have no explanatory power. We end up more ignorant and confused than when we started out. This amounts to being arbitrary, governed by a priori judgments about people's backgrounds. This is not science, this is prejudice and it ends up confirming what one started out with and confusing the uninformed. And since we opened the discussion again, let me share with you what your suggestions, based on common wisdom of what a Copt should look like, in the other group, produced
112531125411255



Now I know this Nigerian dude is 100% African, as his results on tests designed for africans specifically such as Ethiohelix he scores 100% African components, and if you put his results through a D-stat he wouls also be 100% African. But according to that chromosome painting, He has WHG, ANE and ASE, all wildly implausible things for a Nigerian to have

We look at data differently, my friend. To me this corroborates the Bantu Y-DNA evidence, of ancient Eurasian migration into Africa. I suggest you read up about Bantu people
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-bantu-people/
11256
Taken from Hassan, Hisham Y. et al. 2008 Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History

Coptic levels are higher, Levantines are even higher and Europe and Asia will be even higher. Consistent with the levels of Eurasian Y-DNA in these populations.

nee4speed111
08-30-2016, 03:49 AM
This is simply to evade the evidence since you still trust the total average of all chromosomes, taken size into account.


And that's equally the reason why they miss a lot of clues. You're pretty good at informing me about the common wisdom. I question these presuppositions because they have no explanatory power. We end up more ignorant and confused than when we started out. This amounts to being arbitrary, governed by a priori judgments about people's backgrounds. This is not science, this is prejudice and it ends up confirming what one started out with and confuse the uninformed. And since we opened the discussion again, let me share with you what your suggestions, based on common wisdom of what a Copt should look like, in the other group, produced
112531125411255



We look at data differently, my friend. To me this corroborates the Bantu Y-DNA evidence, of ancient Eurasian migration into Africa. I suggest you read up about Bantu people
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/the-bantu-people/
11256
Taken from Hassan, Hisham Y. et al. 2008 Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History

Coptic levels are higher, Levantines are even higher and Europe and Asia will be even higher. Consistent with the levels of Eurasian Y-DNA in these populations.

The fulani are a specific ethnic group that has known North African ancestry, they always score at least 20-30% Non-African and their North African ancestry is easily traceable. Nigerians in general do not score any non-african ancestry, which is why I linked those chromosomes. The Fulani are a specific ethnic group and it is misleading to use them as a stand in for the average Nigerian as some of our West-African members on this site's results attest to.

You say that listening to the common wisdom is flawed, yet this common wisdom comes from the very people who make these calculators and tests, who have degrees in genetics and publish academic papers. We can only know what signals are old and young when the DNA evidence is collaborated by Ancient DNA (which should hopefully be coming soon), and the results we have now from the Ancient Levant and Anatolia seem to indicate that ANE is a relatively recent phenomenon, as it is completely absent in both pre-neolithic (Natufian) and neolithic samples, only making an appearance in the latter Bronze age ones.

In regards to the Sudanese copts specifically, you are wrong in that they are more African genetically speaking than Egyptian copts, they tend to cluster with Palestinians and Yemenite jews which is exactly where lifeisdandy and most copts seem to cluster, which makes their african ancestry between 10-15%, which I'm sure you've seen in the samples is basically in line with coptic results on average. Their more African Y-DNA with the appareance of B lineages is odd, but it doesn't seem to have impacted their autosomal profile in any real way

Theramster
08-30-2016, 04:07 AM
The fulani are a specific ethnic group that has known North African ancestry, they always score at least 20-30% Non-African and their North African ancestry is easily traceable. Nigerians in general do not score any non-african ancestry, which is why I linked those chromosomes. The Fulani are a specific ethnic group and it is misleading to use them as a stand in for the average Nigerian as some of our West-African members on this site's results attest to.

You say that listening to the common wisdom is flawed, yet this common wisdom comes from the very people who make these calculators and tests, who have degrees in genetics and publish academic papers. We can only know what signals are old and young when the DNA evidence is collaborated by Ancient DNA (which should hopefully be coming soon), and the results we have now from the Ancient Levant and Anatolia seem to indicate that ANE is a relatively recent phenomenon, as it is completely absent in both pre-neolithic (Natufian) and neolithic samples, only making an appearance in the latter Bronze age ones.

In regards to the Sudanese copts specifically, you are wrong in that they are more African genetically speaking than Egyptian copts, they tend to cluster with Palestinians and Yemenite jews which is exactly where lifeisdandy and most copts seem to cluster, which makes their african ancestry between 10-15%, which I'm sure you've seen in the samples is basically in line with coptic results on average. Their more African Y-DNA with the appareance of B lineages is odd, but it doesn't seem to have impacted their autosomal profile in any real way

The fulani are a specific ethnic group that has known North African ancestry, they always score at least 20-30% Non-African and their North African ancestry is easily traceable. Nigerians in general do not score any non-african ancestry, which is why I linked those chromosomes. The Fulani are a specific ethnic group and it is misleading to use them as a stand in for the average Nigerian as some of our West-African members on this site's results attest to.

You say that listening to the common wisdom is flawed, yet this common wisdom comes from the very people who make these calculators and tests, who have degrees in genetics and publish academic papers. We can only know what signals are old and young when the DNA evidence is collaborated by Ancient DNA (which should hopefully be coming soon), and the results we have now from the Ancient Levant and Anatolia seem to indicate that ANE is a relatively recent phenomenon, as it is completely absent in both pre-neolithic (Natufian) and neolithic samples, only making an appearance in the latter Bronze age ones.

Nee4speed I usually include a lot of references. You're missing the point of the post. We ought to question anything that doesn't make sense.

Why are you telling me that ANE is a recent phenomenon? This is exactly what I concluded. It just seems I share too much that is not considered. I've been speaking about Ancient Eurasian migrations into the Levant, Egypt and Africa. Obviously these people migrated and admixed with existing people. So we have layers of autosomal DNA. I also notice you seem to ignore Y DNA evidence. Fulani and Bantu have Eurasian Y DNA which must have come through North Africa even Egypt. Which explains the existence of Eurasian autosomal DNA even in trace amounts.

Finally I take what the Scientific community produces and try to make sense of and question. That's science. I don't treat them as religious dogma.

As for your last paragraph, I'll let lifeisdandy answer you. Of course it's more African than her by some 4% as she probably scores more on the South West Asian. They're more like Origen, all Copts together that is. I don't like these 10-15% ranges, which would make sense for a European but it does make all the difference when you're examining a population like Copts.

nee4speed111
08-30-2016, 04:19 AM
Nee4speed I usually include a lot of references. You're missing the point of the post. We ought to question anything that doesn't make sense.

Why are you telling me that ANE is a recent phenomenon? This is exactly what I concluded. It just seems I share too much that is not considered. I've been speaking about Ancient Eurasian migrations into the Levant, Egypt and Africa. Obviously these people migrated and admixed with existing people. So we have layers of autosomal DNA. I also notice you seem to ignore Y DNA evidence. Fulani and Bantu have Eurasian Y DNA which must have come through North Africa even Egypt. Which explains the existence of Eurasian autosomal DNA even in trace amounts.

Finally I take what the Scientific community produces and try to make sense of and question. That's science. I don't treat them as religious dogma.

As for your last paragraph, I'll let lifeisdandy answer you. Of course it's more African than her by some 4% as she probably scores more on the South West Asian. They're more like Origen, all Copts together that is. I don't like this 10-15% ranges, which would make sense for a European but it does make all the difference when you're examining a population like Copts.

Okay I think we are misinterpreting each other here, I never disagreed about SW-Asian/Natufian/Eurasian ancestry being very old in Egypt, we are in agreement about this and it seems that you think that I believe that the Eurasian ancestry in copts is recent or "new". I agree with you completely, in that both our Haplogroups and autosomal profiles indicate that this is a very old connection, which predates Egyptian civilization by a long time.

15% was the maximum amount that the Sudanese copts had, most of them had less theramaster, the samples were examined by the Eurogenes blog owner and they tended to fall within the 10-15% range which is why I mentioned that figure. Also what do you mean I ignore the Y-DNA evidence, I said that Fulani have North African Admixture which is 80% Eurasian on average, but they have berber admixture not Egyptian as they score "North African" in large amounts, which is a component that peaks in berbers.

In regards to Bantu specifically, you will have to narrow it down to a specific ethnic group as Bantu is a language family composed of more than 300 ethnic groups, its difficult to generalize.

Theramster
08-30-2016, 05:46 AM
Okay I think we are misinterpreting each other here, I never disagreed about SW-Asian/Natufian/Eurasian ancestry being very old in Egypt, we are in agreement about this and it seems that you think that I believe that the Eurasian ancestry in copts is recent or "new". I agree with you completely, in that both our Haplogroups and autosomal profiles indicate that this is a very old connection, which predates Egyptian civilization by a long time.

15% was the maximum amount that the Sudanese copts had, most of them had less theramaster, the samples were examined by the Eurogenes blog owner and they tended to fall within the 10-15% range which is why I mentioned that figure. Also what do you mean I ignore the Y-DNA evidence, I said that Fulani have North African Admixture which is 80% Eurasian on average, but they have berber admixture not Egyptian as they score "North African" in large amounts, which is a component that peaks in berbers.

In regards to Bantu specifically, you will have to narrow it down to a specific ethnic group as Bantu is a language family composed of more than 300 ethnic groups, its difficult to generalize.
I'm glad we agree about something.

Most Subsaharan Africa are descendant from Ancient Bantu who colonized the South from what is now the area of Nigeria. You ignore the Y DNA evidence because there is Eurasian Y DNA like basal haplogroup R1* which is also found in Egypt. I don't have to narrow it down at all. No one knows where the Berbers were in ancient times. We are talking about admixture in a constant state of Flux over thousands of years. All I can assert is that I'm not as surprised to see ANE in Nigeria. In fact I'd be surprised if I don't see any Eurasian DNA there.

As for the Sudanese Copts, for a European it's easy to lump 15% African with 10% African. We don't know how many. But I assure you 15% is pretty high when dealing with Copts. You must ask me why? It all comes down to perspective. Coptic DNA is sensitive to these changes among its own components since it doesn't have one component that identifies it as such in comparison to say Northern European or Southern Arabia or Southern India or Even subsaharan Africa. Coptic DNA's general signature is a plurality of Eurasian elements with one minor African element. Any change among these does create a sub-profile. Please consider how I described it above. So Coptic genomics will have to be sensitive to Coptic reality in order to make sense of our own experience and the data at hand and history ancient(migrations) and modern(isolation).

Copts in their divergent profiles can fit phenotypically in different populations, and even genetically as shown in oracle results when Copts are not included.

You raised objections that some of my kits seem to be mixed with Europeans ( which may be true but their Coptic side was more African. When I removed them I ended up with a less African profile and more South West Asian). How can you be sure Sudanese Copts have not intermarried with Sudanese? I personally know of such real life examples.

I for one fall below the 10% and while you may brand me an outlier. Doing so simply confirms a priori criterion of what is a Copt. So we end up denying reality for some study, which logically must represent something south of Upper Egypt. I would use it to give me the upper level of SSA. The lower end is subject to the expansion of your samples to a larger amount from different locations in Egypt.

Theramster
08-30-2016, 06:23 AM
And just so I understand this ANE comes from where exactly?

Hi lifeisdandy
Here is the whole story
http://anthromadness.blogspot.ca/2015/09/ancient-north-eurasian.html?m=1
Basically a precursor population to modern Europeans and Asians. I like the humble approach this writer is taking in approaching the subject. Sometimes the right answer is that we don't know enough, but what we know is that groups that were constituents of Europe and Asia migrated southward to the Levant and Egypt, and even to Africa. These Proto-Indo-European people were less numerous but I believe most effective. They left traces of their autosomal DNA in all of us, and their Y-DNA in few of us. Now this group could have been several things ANE(Ancestral North Eurasian) CHG (Caucusus hunter gatherers), West Asian, but what's important is that they moved south and affected existing people's make up as they changed Europe's make up. The result of this admixture is the historic people we know, in the Levant, Ancient Egypt, India, Arabia, Persia...etc.

Any attempt at rigid dogmatism here beyond a general outline is to miss the forest for the trees. The only trees we have are pretty much us, the product of a long history of admixture and selection.

Theramster
08-30-2016, 11:00 PM
@Nee4speed111
In a previous post we made reference to North Eurasian connection to Amerindian DNA and we made the connection between Ancient Eurasian migration to Egypt and the trace amounts of Amerindian DNA among Copts and Levantines
Here http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6532-Egyptian-Copts-high-in-E-V65&p=181330&viewfull=1#post181330

This is a possible path for Papuan and Oceanian or even East Asian and South Indian DNA to have reached Egypt and the Levant. The key is the Red Sea ancient trade in Egypt. And the possible admixture between Oceanic and Papuan populations as recent as 4200 years ago with South India.
11281
And the Genetic connection here
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/14/science/la-sci-india-australia-migration-20130115

Theramster
08-30-2016, 11:03 PM
Nee4speed111
In a previous post we made reference to North Eurasian connection to Amerindian DNA and we made the connection between Ancient Eurasian migration to Egypt and the trace amounts of Amerindian DNA among Copts and Levantines
Here http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post181330

This is a possible path for Papuan and Oceanian or even East Asian and South Indian DNA to have reached Egypt and the Levant. The key is the Red Sea ancient trade in Egypt. And the possible admixture between Oceanic and Papuan populations as recent as 4200 years ago with South India.
11282

And the Genetic connection here

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/14/science/la-sci-india-australia-migration-20130115

The Saite
03-26-2019, 01:23 PM
We need these Coptic E-V65 samples to be added to YFull .. iam sure it will Change the most recent common ancestor time by maybe thousands of years

The Saite
03-26-2019, 01:25 PM
Can any one please share more Coptic Y-DNA samples ?
I would be very grateful .. thanks in advance