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Jean M
02-26-2016, 11:18 PM
Tomasz Płoszaj, Krystyna Jędrychowska-Dańska, Alicja Masłowska, Tomasz Kozłowski, Wojciech Chudziak, Jacek Bojarski, Agnieszka Robaszkiewicz & Henryk W. Witas, Analysis of medieval mtDNA from Napole cemetery provides new insights into the early history of Polish state, Annals of Human Biology, posted online: 08 Feb 2016

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/03014460.2016.1151550


Contemporary historical anthropology and classical archaeology are concerned not only with such fundamental issues as the origins of ancient human populations and migration routes, but also with the formation and development of interpopulation relations and the mixing of gene pools as a result of interbreeding between individuals representing different cultural units. The contribution of immigrants to the analysed autochthonous population and their effect on the gene pool of that population has proven difficult to evaluate with classical morphological methods. The burial of one individual in the studied Napole cemetery located in central Poland had the form of a chamber grave, which is typical of Scandinavian culture from that period. However, this fact cannot be interpreted as absolute proof that the individual (in the biological sense) was allochtonous. This gives rise to the question as to who was actually buried in that cemetery. The ancient DNA results indicate that one of the individuals had an mtDNA haplotype typical of Iron Age northern Europe, which suggests that he could have arrived from that area at a later period. This seems to indirectly confirm the claims of many anthropologists that the development of the early medieval Polish state was significantly and directly influenced by the Scandinavians.

I don't have access to the full text, which is behind a paywall. Can't imagine how they concluded the mtDNA was Scandinavian. But here you are.

GoldenHind
02-26-2016, 11:23 PM
I don't know of any mtDNA that is uniquely Scandinavian. Ny own, which is from Sweden, is certainly found outside of Scandinavia.

lgmayka
02-27-2016, 03:29 AM
I don't know of any mtDNA that is uniquely Scandinavian.
That's exactly the problem. mtDNA mutates rather rarely--on the average, every couple thousand years. It's simply not specific enough for ethnic classification. My cousin (100% Polish) has 23 exact full-sequence mtDNA matches, from:
Austria
England
Ireland
Norway
Poland
Scotland
Sweden
Wales

C J Wyatt III
02-27-2016, 04:24 AM
That's exactly the problem. mtDNA mutates rather rarely--on the average, every couple thousand years. It's simply not specific enough for ethnic classification. My cousin (100% Polish) has 23 exact full-sequence mtDNA matches, from:
Austria
England
Ireland
Norway
Poland
Scotland
Sweden
Wales

Can you share his haplotype?

Thanks,

Jack

GailT
02-27-2016, 05:27 AM
Can you share his haplotype?

They did not publish the haplotype in the abstract, so someone would have to purchase the article to find out the haplotype. I don't think that is worthwhile because you probably cannot conclude anything about the specific geographic origin of the person from the mtDNA.

Lugus
02-27-2016, 08:11 AM
I don't have access to the full text, which is behind a paywall. Can't imagine how they concluded the mtDNA was Scandinavian. But here you are.

$54? Who makes money from selling these articles? What's the point of hiding from the public the results of your research? For some reason I also prefer to see international teams working together.

Gravetto-Danubian
02-27-2016, 08:40 AM
$54? Who makes money from selling these articles? What's the point of hiding from the public the results of your research? For some reason I also prefer to see international teams working together.

Authors choose journals according to 'impact factor', and whether the article gets accepted or not. The Journal's parent company (in this case Taylor & Francis) make the money, not a cent goes to authors. Yes, they have costs to cover, but the prices are getting obscene - the charges of T & F are one of the highest per article, perhaps second worse to de Gruyter. Other academics can obtain the articles from their universities - but even then some of them cannot, becuase the university might not have a subscription to a said journal.

Authors have the ability to make their article free, but they in turn have to pay, which is a lot to ask for smaller institutions.
But they can make the choice of using more reasonable journals (incl free ones like PLOS One), boycott the more expensive ones, and they can upload their articles to academic sites like Academia or ResearchGate, or simply 'accidently' post a PDF online, but they have to be careful as some Journals and Publishing companies (for book chapters) impose a 'quarantine' for a certain period post publication.

lgmayka
02-27-2016, 10:48 AM
Can you share his haplotype?
If you mean my cousin, he belongs to K1c1b.


64890 Stefania Kolbusz, b. 1909, Kamienica Górna, Poland K1c1b A16129G, T16187C, C16189T, T16223C, T16224C, G16230A, T16278C C195T, A247G, C498d, 522.1A, 522.2C, 309.1C, 315.1C

Jean M
02-27-2016, 10:48 AM
Authors ... can upload their articles to academic sites like Academia or ResearchGate.

In this case, you can request a copy via ResearchGate, though I don't think I'm going to bother.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Tomasz_Kozlowski3

Lugus
02-27-2016, 01:08 PM
In this case, you can request a copy via ResearchGate, though I don't think I'm going to bother.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Tomasz_Kozlowski3

Thanks, I sent a request, let's see what happens. I'm particularly interested in eastern European Mtdna because my haplogroup even if it's found in many places does seem to have some connection to that area.

Lank
02-27-2016, 01:26 PM
Here is the results and discussion portion:


The mtDNA sequences of two analysed specimens (each performed in four independent replicates) were identical which confirms both the reproducibility of acquired data and the sufficient quality of isolated aDNA. Results for the individual from grave 7, which was characterised by relatively rich grave goods (consisting of an iron knife and a spearhead (Bojarski, 2014)), are typical of this part of the world. Haplotype (7028C, 16304C), classifying the individual to haplogroup H, was highly abundant across Europe (also in Poland) in ancient populations ranging from the Neolithic to the Middle Ages (Melchior et al., 2010, Brandt et al., 2013, Juras et al., 2014, Witas et al., 2015, Lorkiewicz et al., 2015, Ploszaj et al., 2015), and it still remains widespread today (Mielnik-Sikorska et al., 2013). Thus, while this haplotype does not allow for specific conclusions, it certainly does not preclude a Scandinavian origin as, according to the literature, it was present also in Iron Age Denmark (Melchior et al., 2008).

A much more unique mtDNA haplotype was found in the individual from grave 8, who was rather tall for a medieval man (169.8 cm tall) (Florkowski, 1992). The obtained mtDNA haplotype (4529T, 7028T, 16129A 16223T 16304C 16391A, belonging to haplogroup I) is now extremely rare in Europe (0.1%) (Parson and Dur, 2007). In the contemporary Polish population, none of the 1253 HVR I haplotypes determined to date match the medieval one identified in Napole (Malyarchuk et al., 2002, Grzybowski et al., 2007, Mielnik-Sikorska et al., 2013). Moreover, such a haplotype has not been found among the data collected by our team from a variety of archaeological sites and periods between the Neolithic and the Middle Ages (Witas et al., 2015, Lorkiewicz et al., 2015) or among the recently published data on ancient mtDNA from the present-day area of Poland (Juras et al., 2014). This indicates that the individual in question is probably allochtonous. Moreover, the chamber grave (no. 13) unearthed at that site, typical of the Scandinavian culture area, suggests that some members of the small population using the cemetery may have come from northern Europe. Analysis of mtDNA data from this part of Europe clearly shows that haplogroup I is characteristic of ancient Scandinavian populations, where its frequency was 12.5% (Melchior et al., 2010), more than six times higher than today (1.9%) (Helgason et al., 2000). Among the several haplotypes belonging to haplogroup I identified in northern Europe for different historical periods, only one is identical to the haplotype found in Napole. The haplotype in question was identified in an individual (designated as B5) from the Iron Age Bøgebjerggård settlement in present-day Denmark (Melchior et al., 2008). The identified haplotype might represent descendants of the individual, who arrived in Poland during migrations after Iron Age as suggested by archaeologists (Harck and Lübke, 2001). The absence of that haplotype from the contemporary Polish population may be due to the fact that mtDNA is inherited maternally. It should be remembered that allochthonous individuals were more often male than female, which led to the disappearance of the atypical haplogroups from the Polish mtDNA pool over the subsequent generations. Snother likely scenario is that we found the individual belonging to the population of Polish residents carrying such a haplogroup in those days, whose mtDNA haplotype disappeared as a consequence of for e.g. genetic drift.

C J Wyatt III
02-27-2016, 01:43 PM
If you mean my cousin, he belongs to K1c1b.


64890 Stefania Kolbusz, b. 1909, Kamienica Górna, Poland K1c1b A16129G, T16187C, C16189T, T16223C, T16224C, G16230A, T16278C C195T, A247G, C498d, 522.1A, 522.2C, 309.1C, 315.1C


Thanks, that is exactly what I am looking for. My mother has four K1c1b's on her 'one-to-many' lists which she has X-DNA connections to. There could be something interesting here. I'll do some comparisons and get back to you.

Jack

Tomenable
02-27-2016, 02:58 PM
I don't have access to the full text, which is behind a paywall. Can't imagine how they concluded the mtDNA was Scandinavian. But here you are.

Hi Jean M, I do have access.

They concluded that it could be Scandinavian, because it was identical with Iron Age B5 from Bøgebjerggård (Melchior 2008a):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ironagedna.shtml

This is the only exact match they found (in either aDNA or modern DNA), so they presume that it could be a descendant of B5.

Tomenable
02-27-2016, 03:03 PM
I was about to start a thread asking whether there are any exact matches of this haplotype in databases of modern people:

Denmark | Bøgebjerggård [B5] | Female | 0 BC/AD | mtDNA I | 7028T, 10034C, 16129A, 16223T, 16304C, 16391A | Melchior 2008a

Then I found this thread. :) So, are there any known exact matches of this subclade of mtDNA I among the living people?

Tomenable
02-27-2016, 03:08 PM
The guy (male) from the study is (data from Table 1.): mtDNA haplogroup I

Coding sequence*:

7028T, 4529T

HVR I and II haplotype* (67-256; 16125-16400):

73G 16129A 16223T 16304C 16391A

* - Polymorphic sites are numbered according to the revised Cambridge Reference Sequence (rCRS).

Is it really an exact match to B5 sample from Melchior 2008a, though ???

==================

Considering that this guy was a male, I wonder why didn't they also determine what was his Y-DNA haplogroup?

Analyses of strontium isotopes would also be nice, to check if he was locally born, or a 1st generation immigrant.

==================

The sample is from this locality (at the Vistula River): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napole,_Golub-Dobrzyń_County

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8000&d=1456586464

thetick
02-27-2016, 03:16 PM
Making conclusions based on ONE mtDNA sample is just a complete waste of everyone's time and basically meaningless. This paper is junk. The authors should be ashamed. Move on nothing to see here.

Tomenable
02-27-2016, 03:26 PM
Making conclusions based on ONE mtDNA sample is just a complete waste of everyone's time

That guy was buried close to Pomerelia (Eastern Pomerania), which was outside of the Earliest Piast territory anyway.

The presence of some Scandinavians (mainly traders) in Early Medieval Pomerania has not been a mystery for some time.

But it does not prove their influence on the formation of the Early Polish state, which formed in a different region.

I think the authors are just teasing us (they will publish more aDNA - and from actual Piast homeland - this Autumn). :)

See my thread: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon

Tomenable
02-27-2016, 03:29 PM
BTW - isotopic analysis of his teeth is necessary to determine if he was local or immigrant. Y-DNA would also be nice.

He could be a Slavicized descendant of Goths (who had once lived there), rather than a recent Scandinavian migrant.

The only exact mtDNA match for that individual is from Iron Age samples, it seems.


This paper is junk.

It's rather an appetizer.

But this paper is mainly by scientists from Łódź, not by ones from Poznań (who will publish more data this Autumn).

I'm not sure if these two groups are cooperating in aDNA research, or are they working independently.

Tomenable
02-27-2016, 03:53 PM
They did not publish the haplotype in the abstract, so someone would have to purchase the article to find out the haplotype.

Few days ago I sent a request to the authors (via Research Gate website) and they have sent me back the full paper, for free:

www.researchgate.net/




Thanks, I sent a request, let's see what happens. I'm particularly interested in eastern European Mtdna because my haplogroup even if it's found in many places does seem to have some connection to that area.

And the other male from their study (Grave 7) was of mtDNA haplogroup H.


$54?

Yeah, it's way too much for 2 samples of mtDNA... But Gravetto-Danubian explained, that it's not the authors' fault:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6541-Medieval-mtDNA-from-Napole-cemetery-Poland-Scandinavian&p=142875&viewfull=1#post142875

Tomenable
02-27-2016, 04:45 PM
Denmark | Bøgebjerggård | Female | 0 BC/AD | mtDNA I | 7028T, 10034C, 16129A, 16223T, 16304C, 16391A | Melchior 2008a

In a sample of 15854 modern Europeans, 11 were an exact match, mainly in the north of the continent - from Melchior 2008a:

"The exact match to the I type in the HVS-I region of B5 is mainly found in Northern Europe today (11/15,854)"

==============================

BTW:

Napole samples are dated to ca. 1100-1200 (end of 11th - turns of 12th/13th centuries). Jean M already added them:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/medievaldna.shtml

Those dates do not match with the Early Piasts (900s-1000s), but do match with the period of Polish-Danish alliance:

http://www.kopenhaga.msz.gov.pl/en/bilateral_cooperation/diplomatic_relations/?printMode=true

"Diplomatic Relations between Poland and Denmark":


The first records of Polish-Danish relations date back to the early years of the first Polish ruling dynasty, the Piast dynasty. In 996, the first Polish king, Mieszko I, gave his daughter Świętosława in marriage to the Danish King Svend Forkbeard. This move was most probably a part of the Polish king's plan to strengthen his power. Around 1129/1130, the two countries cooperated in arranging a common expedition to the island of Wolin in what is now Northwestern Poland. This alliance, however, did not last for long. Another instance of Polish-Danish rapprochement took place in the 14th century when the Danish King Erik Menved concluded an alliance with the Polish king Władysław the Elbow-high, which was directed against the rising power of the German Margraviate of Brandenburg. Władysław’s son Casimir the Great twice invited the Danish King Valdemar Atterdag to his court in Kraków in the middle of the 14th century. During one of his stays, the Danish King participated in a banquet hosted by Mikołaj Wierzynek – whose restaurant carrying his name still exists today in Kraków’s Main Square. This event was made famous by Polish chronicler Jan Długosz’ depiction of the event.

A very strong determining factor behind the foreign policies of the two kingdoms was the German expansion – by the Hanseatic League and the Teutonic Order – in the north and in the east. The Polish-Lithuanian Union and the Danish-Swedish-Norwegian Kalmar Union, which were both established in the late 14th century, were motivated by a desire to counteract the widespread German influence. In this context, mention should be made of Erik of Pomerania from the House of Griffins, which was a dynasty ruling the Duchy of Pomerania. Erik was adopted by the Danish Queen Margaret I and thanks to her efforts was crowned the king of the three united Nordic countries in 1397.

The second part of the 16th century marked the beginning of a long period of fighting between the countries around the Baltic Sea to secure themselves the hegemony of the Baltic Region. What the Polish-Danish relations is concerned, this turbulent period was characterized by a series of short-lived alliances, most often directed against Sweden. The most famous episode of the Polish-Danish relationship in this period is undoubtedly the campaign of a corps of Polish soldiers under the leadership of Hetman Stefan Czarniecki. Czarniecki's troops came to the rescue of their Danish ally during the Second Northern War (1655-1660). The Danish King Frederik III had declared war against Sweden in 1657 but, much to his surprise, the Swedish troops soon defeated the Danish army. In 1658, Stefan Czarniecki and his squad of 6.000 soldiers came to the rescue of Denmark. The Polish troops especially distinguished themselves in the liberation of Als and Koldinghus – the former seat of the Danish kings. These events were vividly depicted by the Polish chronicler and nobleman Jan Chryzostom Pasek, who himself took part in the expedition.

In the following decades, the Polish-Danish relations gradually lost their importance (...)

==================

Edit:

More on that Polish-Danish alliance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolesław_III_Wrymouth#Christianization_of_Western_ Pomerania


[B]In 1129 Bolesław concluded with Niels, King of Denmark an alliance directed against Wartislaw I and the attempts of Lothair III, King of Germany to subordinate Western Pomerania. In retaliation for the sack of Płock by Wartislaw I in 1128, Polish-Danish troops took the Western Pomeranian islands of Wolin and Usedom.[171]

ThirdTerm
02-27-2016, 08:08 PM
A much more unique mtDNA haplotype was found in the individual from grave 8, who was rather tall for a medieval man (169.8 cm tall) (Florkowski, 1992). The obtained mtDNA haplotype (4529T, 7028T, 16129A 16223T 16304C 16391A, belonging to haplogroup I) is now extremely rare in Europe (0.1%) (Parson and Dur, 2007). In the contemporary Polish population, none of the 1253 HVR I haplotypes determined to date match the medieval one identified in Napole (Malyarchuk et al., 2002, Grzybowski et al., 2007, Mielnik-Sikorska et al., 2013).


A previous study on the Viking population in Galgedil (Melchior et al. 2008) found Haplogroup I to be a unique Viking genetic marker. The discovery of unique mtDNA haplotype belonging to Haplogroup I in the Napole cemetery is the clear evidence of a Viking settlement in central Poland. The Danish Vikings also carried Haplogroup X, which was also found among Native Americans.



Rare mtDNA haplogroups

Given the small sample sizes the Viking population sample from Galgedil does not differ significantly from other Viking and Iron Age population samples from the Danish past by the haplogroup frequency distribution, however, it is noted that five of the ten subjects harbour mtDNA haplotypes which have either not been observed or are infrequent in modern Scandinavians (Table 1). In particular the observation of haplotype X2c is interesting (subject G7). Haplogroup X is itself rare (0.9% in Scandinavians [51]) but has a very wide geographic range, and X2c is a rare subgroup of X accounting for only 5% of 175 Hg X samples surveyed in 2003 [52]. A possible European (Viking?) origin of haplotype X2a identified among Native Americans has been suggested [53], [54], but X2a has not been detected in Europe and the present observation of X2c amongst the Vikings does not support this proposal.

Among present day Scandinavians Hg I constitutes <2% [55], [56], however, we have previously observed a markedly higher frequency (10–20%) of Hg I in Danish Iron Age and Viking Age population samples (Table S3) [16], [21]. With the observation of Hg I for subject G6 this trend is also seen for the Viking population sample from Galgedil. Interestingly, Hg I shows a low frequency (1 out of 114 subjects) among other ancient populations in Italy, Spain, Great Britain, and early central European farmers [11], [12], [43], [57].

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0002214

Tomenable
02-27-2016, 09:57 PM
The cemetery at Napole has been dated to years 1100-1200, most likely during the reign of Boleslav III:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolesław_III_Wrymouth#Christianization_of_Western_ Pomerania


In 1129 Bolesław concluded with Niels, King of Denmark an alliance directed against Wartislaw I and the attempts of Lothair III, King of Germany to subordinate Western Pomerania. In retaliation for the sack of Płock by Wartislaw I in 1128, Polish-Danish troops took the Western Pomeranian islands of Wolin and Usedom.[171]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels,_King_of_Denmark#Biography


Niels supported the canonization of his brother Canute IV the Holy by bestowing gifts on the clergy of Odense as he sought to enlarge the power and influence of the monarchy through the aid of the church.[4] However, it is likely he did not win the full support of the magnates on Zealand.[4] He also campaigned against the Wends in alliance with Poland.[1] In 1125, Niels' son Magnus was named King of Sweden as Magnus I of Sweden.[6]

When geneticists with poor knowledge of history start researching things, they sometimes draw random conclusions.

In this case associating that grave with the Polish-Danish campaign in Western Pomerania in the 1100s seems obvious.

Authors of this paper failed to notice the obvious connection with historical events related to kings Niels and Boleslav.

============================

BTW:

Napole is not in "central" Poland. It is located in northern Poland, in what - after 1228 - became the Teutonic Order's state:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_the_Teutonic_Order

============================

Edit:

Few days ago, here I wrote about possible Scandinavian admixture in Polish Kashubians (link):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4967-The-origin-of-the-Slavs&p=142193&viewfull=1#post142193


In any case - as you have just noticed - in Kashubian Y-DNA, Scandinavian admixture seems to be more significant than German admixture. Not only I1, but also Q1a (carriers of which were found among Kashubians by Woźniak, Grzybowski et al. 2010) could be from Scandinavia.

And it is possible that some of Kashubian R1a is actually R1a-Z284 or R1a-L664 (but this is just my unsupported speculation at this point).

Here details on Kashubian Y-DNA (204 samples from one source and 64 samples from another):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4967-The-origin-of-the-Slavs&p=142180&viewfull=1#post142180

Tomenable
02-27-2016, 10:05 PM
The Danish Vikings also carried Haplogroup X, which was also found among Native Americans.

Native Americans have a much different, early divergent subclade of haplogroup X, though.

Its presence in America has been associated with the Solutrean Hypothesis, not with Vikings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_hypothesis


The Solutrean hypothesis, first proposed in 1998, is a hypothesis about the settlement of the Americas that claims that people from Europe may have been among the earliest settlers of the Americas.[1][2] Its notable proponents include Dennis Stanford of the Smithsonian Institution and Bruce Bradley of the University of Exeter.[3] The Solutrean Hypothesis contrasts with archaeological orthodoxy which holds that the North American continent was first populated by people from Asia, either by the Bering land bridge (i.e. Beringia) at least 13,500 years ago.[4] or by maritime travel along the Pacific coast or by both.

According to the Solutrean hypothesis, people of the Solutrean culture, 21,000 to 17,000 years ago,[5] in Ice Age Europe migrated to North America by boat along the pack ice of the north Atlantic Ocean. They brought their methods of making stone tools with them and provided the basis for the later (c. 13,000 years ago) Clovis technology that spread throughout North America. The hypothesis is based on similarities between European Solutrean and Clovis lithic technologies.

But since the discovery of Ancient North Eurasians, we don't need Solutreans to explain it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF1UO0-cHLs


Melchior et al. 2008 found Haplogroup I to be a unique Viking genetic marker.

They found just this particular subclade in one woman from a rural village in Iron Age Denmark.

Mitochondrial haplogroup I - taken as a whole - is by no means "a unique Viking genetic marker":

http://s23.postimg.org/5933izycb/image.png

Tomenable
02-27-2016, 10:23 PM
Viking expeditions to North America were well-documented (by the Vikings themselves) in "The Vinland Sagas".

Many people disbelieved that those Sagas tell the truth, until in 1960 archaeologists discovered a Viking settlement in North America:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows

From those Sagas we know, that the total number of Viking settlers in North America was very low - only 140-160 people: women, children and men (including about 60 adult warriors) -, and that around year 1010 AD they were forced by Native Americans to abandon their settlement, and to withdraw back to Greenland. So I really don't think they left any large-scale genetic signature behind them.

"The Vinland Sagas" describe the final battle of Vikings versus Native Americans (called Skraelings by the Vikings):

Quote:


(...) Thereupon [Thorfinn] Karlsefni and his men took red shields and displayed them. The Skraelings sprang from their boats, and they met and fought. Sharp rain of missiles fell down, because the Skraelings had slings. Karlsefni and Snorri noticed, that using long wooden bars they were lifting large round items, almost as large as a sheep's stomach, dark blue to black in colour. They were throwing them over the heads of Karsefni's men, and they were making terrific noise when falling down.

That thing to such an extent terrified Karlsefni and his people, that they could only think about escaping along the bank of the river, as it seemed to them that the crowd of Skraelings was pushing on them from all sides. They didn't stop, until they reached some rocks, where they stopped and stood their ground for some time, but then started running again.

Freydis Eriksdottir came out of doors and seeing that Karlsefni and the men were fleeing, she shouted:

"Why are you running from these wretches? I thought, that such courageous men were going to slaughter them like cattle. If only I had a weapon, I would have fought better than any of you."

But they did not react to her words, so Freydis tried to join them in their run, but could not keep up in escape since she was pregnant. She reached the edge of a nearby forest, and the Skraelings were just behind her.

Then she saw a dead man before her. It was Thorbrand, son of Snorri, his skull was pierced by blade of a flat stone, a naked sword lied beside him. Freydis snatched it up and as the Skraelings came close she let fall her shirt and slapped her breasts with the naked blade. Seeing this the Skraelings were frightened and ran to their boats and rowed away. Then Karlsefni and his men came close to her, and praised her bravery.

Two men of Karlsefni and four Skraelings were killed. But Karlsefni suffered a defeat. It now seemed clear to Karlsefni and his people that though this was an attractive country their lives there would be filled with fear and turmoil because of the Skraelings and so they decided to leave [back to Greenland]. (...)

The Viking leader described above, was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorfinn_Karlsefni

Those mysterious items thrown by Native warriors (which made "terrific noise when falling down"), were probably harpoons with floats made of bladders ("almost as large as a sheep's stomach"). Probably the group of Skraelings was going for sea hunting when they encountered those Vikings accidentally (this would explain why they were throwing harpoons with floats - they had no time to detach floats from harpoons).

BTW - the Viking name of Inuits (and Native Americans in general) was Skraelingar.

On the other hand, the Inuits named those newcomers from Europe - Kavdlunait.

===================================

A book about Viking expeditions to North America:

http://www.heathengods.com/library/Early%20Norse%20Visits%20to%20North%20America%20-%20WH%20Babcock.pdf

Farley Mowat also wrote about those events.

Gravetto-Danubian
02-28-2016, 12:30 AM
Poland and the east Baltic have had a long and complex history of interaction with Scandinavia
This would make a very good and doable PhD project for some young scholars - taking a diachronic sampling of northern Poland and southern Scandinavia to stratify any genetic interchange

Notable episodes might be :
- Nordic Bronze Age <-> Lausitz culture
- Jastorf < -> Przeworsk
- scandza<-> okswyie-> WIelbark
- Migration age : notable Scandinavian burials in Pomerania, incl. the Elblag group
- Vendel period, Middle Ages

Tomenable
02-28-2016, 04:01 AM
Good points Gravetto-Danubian, there is also evidence of West Slavic influence in Medieval Scandinavia, for example:

- Slavic pottery: Feldberg, Menkendorf and Fresendorf type pots (with various trade goods inside) exported to Scandinavia
- Slavic toponyms in Denmark (particularly in the islands of Lolland, Falster, Langeland, Fyn, Zealand, etc.) - for example the following settlements have names of Slavic origin (or named after Slavic inhabitants): Korbelitse, Kuditse, Kunditse, Revitse, Tillitse, Binnitse, Kramnitse, Billitse, Jerlitse, Vindeby, Vindeballe, Vindeltorp, Vinde Sæby, Vindeholme, Vindbyholt, Vinderup, Vinde Helsinge, Vinderup, Vindebode, Vinderød, Fribrødre, etc.
- Slavs settling on Bornholm: https://www.academia.edu/348813/Homelands_lost_and_gained._Slavic_migration_and_se ttlement_on_Bornholm_in_the_early_Middle_Ages
- in the 12th century Denmark opened its borders to Polabian Slavic refugees fleeing from Saxon crusaders
- Slavic mercenaries played a big role in the formation/expansion of Denmark under Harald Bluetooth (per Saxo Grammaticus, "Gesta Danorum")
- What Saxo wrote has actually been confirmed by analyses of strontium isotopes from Trelleborg fortress (source (http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9431425))
- Numerous examples of dynastic intermarriages between Slavic princesses and Scandinavian monarchs
- One of Harald Bluetooth's wifes was also Slavic: http://history.org.ua/JournALL/ruthenica/ruthenica_2011_suppl4/10.pdf
- Saxo in Book 8 testifies to Slavic presence in Scandinavia already in the 8th century: https://sites.google.com/site/margreteerykiunia/44-saxo/ksiega-08
- Slavic fleets both participated in sea battles between against various Scandinavian factions, as well as raided Scandinavia
- in 1134-1136 Slavs captured Roskilde and Kungahälla/Konghelle in Norway: see e.g. this article (http://www.lodose.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/013b-Bohus-Fortress-Kungah%C3%A4lla-Kung%C3%A4lv-eng.pdf) and this Saga (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/598/598-h/598-h.htm).
- per "Historia Ecclesiastica" by Orderic Vitalis, Poles (Poleni) and Veleti participated in Svein Estridsen's invasion of England in 1069
- also Cnut the Great had Polish and possibly other Slavic reinforcements (Polish-Danish alliance) or mercenaries in England in 1015-1016
- other sources such as for example: Adam of Bremen, "Chronicon Thietmari", "Cnutonis regis gesta sive enconium Emmae reginae", "Jomsvikinga Saga" and "Chronica Slavorum" also mention Slavic allies / mercenaries fighting side by side with Scandinavians
- Bluetooth's wife (and Forkbeard's mother) was Slavic - daughter of Obodrite Mstivoy; then Forkbeard's wife (and Cnut's mother) was also Slavic - daughter of Poland's Mieszko I; what it means is that Cnut the Great could actually be genetically more Slavic than Scandinavian
- check also: Mats Roslund, "Cultural transmisson between Slavs and Scandinavians 900 to 1300 AD", Leiden 2007 (https://books.google.pl/books?id=AyIhBW-GqVkC&pg=PR11&lpg=PR11&dq=Guests+in+the+House.+Cultural+transmission+betw een+Slavs+and+Scandinavians+900+to+1300+AD&source=bl&ots=R7_Wl-bbAI&sig=8INQ2Ku_anh7PQwaUpdfLoB1Isg&hl=pl&sa=X&ei=2BdYU53_AobC7AaVpIDwBg&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Artmar
02-28-2016, 01:31 PM
In any case - as you have just noticed - in Kashubian Y-DNA, Scandinavian admixture seems to be more significant than German admixture. Not only I1, but also Q1a (carriers of which were found among Kashubians by Woźniak, Grzybowski et al. 2010) could be from Scandinavia.

And it is possible that some of Kashubian R1a is actually R1a-Z284 or R1a-L664 (but this is just my unsupported speculation at this point).

We have many Kashubian and other Eastern Pomeranian samples in R1a Project and most of them represent certain clades under Z280. For the biggest part, it is:
CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365
CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951>YP977>YP1018

Z280 constitutes for about 40% of a whole Kashubian Y-DNA pool. Maybe it's a 36-38%, with some room for various rare Z282(xZ280,xM458) cases or Z93 singletons.

For a lesser part (~20%), it's an M458, mostly subclades of L1029. L260 is marginal, rather not more frequent than 5% of a whole.

I have no knowledge of any L664 from Kashubia, both from commercial testing and thesis of Rebala from 2012(since L664 is easily detectable even on low level). I haven't observed any Z284 from Kashubia so far but some singletons may soon be found among FTDNA testees, who knows.

Speaking of Q1a - we have one Big Y testee from Kashubia (with genealogy from Koscierzyna), who turned out to represent a rare clade under Q-L53 and he is related more to two Chechens(?)than anyone else.
His result is now being analysed by YFull: http://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-YP4000/

Finally - I'm no expert on I1 types but we can sefaly assume that most of Kashubian I1 represents some continental types. Otherwise, we should see some accompanying R1a and R1b subclades that are typical for Scandinavia, shouldn't we?

I hope it should help.

Tomenable
03-09-2016, 12:08 AM
I haven't observed any Z284 from Kashubia so far

I'm using Nevgen predictor to figure out what were terminal SNPs/hgs of people classified as "K-M9" in this study on Wielkopolska:

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

http://www.nevgen.org

According to Nevgen, sample ID63 has 81,65% probability of being R1a Y2395>Z284>L448 and 7,35% of being R1a Y2395>YP694.

I've also found one N1c (ID01), four I2a1b3 (ID33, 36, 43, 45), one I1 (ID51) and one generic R1a (ID60) among these "K-M9" so far.

That I1 (sample ID51) is predicted by Nevgen to be most likely Z63>BY151>BY351, followed by Z58>Z59>Z60 and Z58>Z138>S2293.

I still haven't checked:

ID66, 67, 74, 81, 83, 87, 88, 89, 98, 106, 111, 112, 113, 129, 143, 144, 150, 151, 157, 158, 173, 179, 180, 181, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188.

George
03-09-2016, 12:22 AM
"four I2a1b3 "(#28) ?? Do you mean I2a1b2 ?

Tomenable
03-09-2016, 12:28 AM
"four I2a1b3 "(#28) ?? Do you mean I2a1b2 ?

No, it predicted those four samples (ID36, 33, 43 and 45) as I2a1b3 - check on your own:

Here is the list of all "K-M9" samples: http://s12.postimg.org/yfo6lc7wt/K_M9_samples.png

Since my last post, I have tested also ID66 and 67 with Nevgen, both are predicted as R1a.

ID66 is probably M458 (>50% chance) and ID67 is probably Z280 (also >50% chance).

Tomenable
03-09-2016, 12:42 AM
I'm not sure how accurate such predictors are with 16 Y-STR markers in predicting subclades.

But in those cases (ID36, 33, 43, 45) Nevgen showed probablity of I2a1b3 as ~100%, very high.

BTW:

ID74 is also R1a (100% chance), and with ~70% probability it is R1a Z282 > Z280 > L1280.

George
03-09-2016, 12:48 AM
No, it predicted those four samples (ID36, 33, 43 and 45) as I2a1b3 - check on your own:

Here is the list of all "K-M9" samples: http://s12.postimg.org/yfo6lc7wt/K_M9_samples.png

Since my last post, I have tested also ID66 and 67 with Nevgen, both are predicted as R1a.

ID66 is probably M458 (>50% chance) and ID67 is probably Z280 (also >50% chance).

I don't see any I2a1b3 in ISOGG and don't really know what this refers to...

Tomenable
03-09-2016, 12:55 AM
I don't see any I2a1b3 in ISOGG and don't really know what this refers to...

OK, I know what the problem is - the name has changed. Nevgen is still using the pre-2014 name:

Useful website: http://dna.scangen.se/snp/snp_hg_converter.php?lang=sv&convert_year=2012&snp=L621

http://s29.postimg.org/9lecq2kuv/Name_change.png

So yes, you are right - it is now I2a1b2 (since 2014). It was called I2a1b3 only in 2012-2013. :)

Tomenable
03-09-2016, 01:06 AM
I have tested 2 more sample - ID81 was 100% chance for R1a and >90% for R1a-M458.

ID83 is R1a, but again a highly atypical result (like ID63), check this Nevgen prediction:

http://s29.postimg.org/ph7s740t3/ID83.png

I guess we can trust that it is really R1a, but can we trust this prediction of subclade ???

Tomenable
03-09-2016, 01:16 AM
According to Michał (who is a moderator here), other cases of Y2395*/YP694 are already known from Poland:

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=1723&start=20


(...) rare cases of R1a, like Ra-Y2395*/YP694 or R1a-M459*) that are known from the Polish FTDNA project.

So maybe this prediction for ID83 is really accurate ???

Tomenable
03-09-2016, 01:22 AM
Prediction for sample ID87 - 99% probability of R1b U106>Z381>Z301>L48>L47.

And 0,4% probability of R1b U106>Z381>Z301>L48>Z9>Z331. 100% for R1b.

========================

ID88 is some kind of R1b-P312 (most likely DF19, but can also be DF13 under L21).

ID89 is something under R1a-M458 with close to ~100% confidence.

ID98 is a weird R1a sample again (probably Z280, but also high probability of Y2395).

========================

In that study (n=201), as many as 19% of all samples - 38 - were labeled as K-M9:

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

So far I have Nevgen-predicted 18 out of these 38. Here are the most likely results:

ID01 - N1c
ID33 - I2a1b2-L621
ID36 - I2a1b2-L621
ID43 - I2a1b2-L621
ID45 - I2a1b2-L621
ID51 - I1a3a2-BY351
ID60 - R1a1a1b2a-Z94
ID63 - R1a1a1b1a3a-L448
ID66 - R1a1a1b1a1-M458
ID67 - R1a1a1b1a2-Z280
ID74a - R1a1a1b1a2-Z280
ID74b - R1a1a1b1a2-Z280
ID81 - R1a1a1b1a1-M458
ID83 - R1a1a1b1a-YP694
ID87 - R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b1-L47
ID88 - R1b1a1a2a1a2e-DF19
ID89 - R1a1a1b1a1-M458
ID98 - R1a1a1b1a2-Z280

Twenty more K-M9 samples to go:

http://www.nevgen.org

ID106
ID111
ID112
ID113
ID129
ID143
ID144
ID150
ID151
ID157
ID158
ID173
ID179
ID180
ID181
ID184
ID185
ID186
ID187
ID188

Tomenable
03-09-2016, 11:24 AM
I have posted the remaining predictions here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=144564&viewfull=1#post144564