PDA

View Full Version : 23andme & AncestryDNA results for Italians and Greeks!



Sikeliot
02-27-2016, 11:37 PM
CALABRIA, SOUTHERN ITALY:


#1

http://i67.tinypic.com/16knl07.jpg


#2

http://i63.tinypic.com/255uyw9.jpg



#3

http://i66.tinypic.com/33wtjpj.jpg



#4

http://i63.tinypic.com/2hxalvc.jpg



#5

http://i67.tinypic.com/1hay4n.jpg



#6

http://i63.tinypic.com/qys9dv.jpg



#7


http://i67.tinypic.com/2mop2jd.jpg

Sikeliot
02-27-2016, 11:45 PM
SICILIANS:


#1

http://i63.tinypic.com/34i5pxw.jpg



#2

http://i65.tinypic.com/iwsolu.jpg



#3

http://i68.tinypic.com/2mo8h2p.jpg



#4

http://i66.tinypic.com/317bpu9.jpg



#5

http://i65.tinypic.com/2ufsih4.jpg



#6

http://i66.tinypic.com/2vaeaoj.jpg



#7

http://i65.tinypic.com/i2ms6o.jpg



#8

http://i67.tinypic.com/28qzyw1.jpg



#9

http://i64.tinypic.com/wcg48j.jpg



#10

http://i63.tinypic.com/29mtzc6.jpg



#11

http://i67.tinypic.com/2chq3kk.jpg



#12

http://i68.tinypic.com/i2kig5.jpg



#13

http://i64.tinypic.com/2vkj58k.jpg



#14

http://i64.tinypic.com/mkhrhh.jpg


#15

http://i66.tinypic.com/e89vna.jpg



#16

http://i66.tinypic.com/21edv8k.jpg


#17

http://i64.tinypic.com/vg6fie.jpg



#18

http://i68.tinypic.com/2d2j2b9.jpg



#19

http://i67.tinypic.com/29m11dy.jpg



#20

http://i66.tinypic.com/o8e1ow.jpg

AnnieD
02-28-2016, 07:12 PM
I identify mostly as British diaspora in America, but what strikes me is how consistent these samples seem to cluster in 60-70% Italian cluster vs. none to very little with their Iberian or French / German neighbors at 23andMe.

Dorkymon
02-28-2016, 09:24 PM
I'd definitely be interested to see the results for Central and North Italians if you have them.

Sikeliot
02-28-2016, 11:15 PM
I identify mostly as British diaspora in America, but what strikes me is how consistent these samples seem to cluster in 60-70% Italian cluster vs. none to very little with their Iberian or French / German neighbors at 23andMe.

"Italian" on here is Tuscan and Central Italian mostly, plus some southern Italians in the reference sample. What this shows then is that southern Italians are like their central Italian neighbors, with a sizable West Asian element. When I post Aegean island Greeks, you'll see they score Italian as well.

Dimanto
02-29-2016, 01:05 AM
All Naples (Campania) Italy:

http://i68.tinypic.com/etifzm.png

http://i64.tinypic.com/fehvko.png


http://i67.tinypic.com/25q7rbm.png

http://i67.tinypic.com/53ti74.png

http://i63.tinypic.com/1z53vhw.png

http://i65.tinypic.com/2nhessg.png

http://i65.tinypic.com/24pezcm.png

http://i68.tinypic.com/2gv3ar7.png

http://i64.tinypic.com/11u7qyv.png

http://i63.tinypic.com/2u3w6kz.png

Dimanto
02-29-2016, 01:14 AM
Northern Italy:

http://i63.tinypic.com/2hqwleh.png Como 1

http://i68.tinypic.com/j76v6a.png Como 2

http://i65.tinypic.com/213rwbd.png Udine

http://i64.tinypic.com/ohk75.png Veneto

http://i65.tinypic.com/2qvxjjk.png Friuli Venezia Giulia

http://i63.tinypic.com/1zl94qh.png Padova, Bassano del Grappa, Crespano del Grappa, Milano, Bolzano

http://i63.tinypic.com/2iux315.png South Tyrol

Sikeliot
02-29-2016, 02:16 AM
You can see the difference between the results when you see the North Italians. Campanians have the same strong West Asian affinity as do Sicilians/Calabrese, while the North Italians plot much further north and have other components in its place.

Cascio
02-29-2016, 08:36 AM
Sikeliot and Dimanto, here are my 23andMe results.

4 grandparents, Lucca Province, NW Tuscany

Speculative Mode:

99.5pc European

Southern European

56.6pc Italian
5.7pc Iberian
<0.1pc Balkan
Broadly Southern European 19.2pc

Northern European

French and German 1.7pc
British and Irish 1.1pc
Broadly Northern European 10.9pc

Broadly European 4.4pc

Other

Yakut 0.1pc
Broadly Sub-Saharan 0.1pc
Unassigned 0.3pc

Am I characteristically Tuscan/Central Italian with no MENA (beyond what is embedded in their "Italian" category) and low Northern European?

Asimakidis
03-29-2016, 08:02 AM
I have noticed on almost all the results that I have seen of mainland Greeks, Island Greeks etc, that they tend to have more Italian than Balkan, even though that Greece is under the Balkan region.. it seems even to be accurate when comparing Pontic Greeks and Cypriots that typically score the opposite proportions to Middle Eastern/Europe (but that is another discussion). So Greeks tendend to have approx 85/15 (average) Europe/Middle East, and Cypriots/Pontic Greeks (if "pure" from the region and not mixed) had 15/85 Europe/M.E, BUT, the Southern European component was always (without exception almost) Italian for the Pontic Greeks and not Balkan..for mainland Greeks and Islanders Balkan was present but as said before, always much less than the Italian component.

What are your theories about this..? :)

Sikeliot
03-29-2016, 03:22 PM
What are your theories about this..? :)

You are incorrect.

Mainland Greeks ALWAYS have higher Balkan than Italian, I have never seen the opposite unless the person was mostly islander living on the mainland. Mainlanders also do not score MENA.

Asimakidis
03-29-2016, 10:52 PM
Ok, lets go with that. How do we explain the other part, Mainly Italian for Asia Minor Greeks. My original thought was that if the Italian component given in 23andme was before the south slavic admixture in the Greek gene pool and perhaps that is why it is also found withing the populations that did not mix (that is Asia Minor Greeks, that have acquired instead the MENA component). In my case for example (75 Pontic Greek, 25 Thracian Greek) it is hard to pinpoint if I don't get my father's dna as well in the database, but my European component has italian as twice the value of my balkan.

I m here to learn, I welcome the debate so I can understand it more.:)

Asimakidis
03-29-2016, 11:08 PM
Ok. So here are some of them I have seen that are confirmed 100% Pontic Greeks.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8501&stc=1http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8502&stc=1http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8503&stc=1http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8504&stc=1

Asimakidis
03-29-2016, 11:10 PM
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8505&stc=1http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8506&stc=1http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8507&stc=1http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8508&stc=1

Asimakidis
03-29-2016, 11:13 PM
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8509&stc=1http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8510&stc=1http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8511&stc=1http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8512&stc=1last one is me. 75% pontic greek 25 thracian greek.

Sikeliot
03-29-2016, 11:58 PM
"Italian" component lacks the Northeast European affinity present in the Balkans and in most Greeks, so higher Italian and lower Balkan means that the Greek individual in question has smaller affinity to NE European (Baltic/Slavic/Steppe/Yamnaya/etc.).

Aegean islanders clearly have more of this affinity than southern Italians do (hence their Balkan score being present even if lower) but less of it than mainland Greeks (hence their higher Italian overall). Southern Italians, Aegean islanders, Sicilians, and Anatolian Greeks also have extra West Asian, which shows up in their results as well.

Asimakidis
03-30-2016, 01:31 AM
Thank you for a satisfying explanation. :)

dnoone
03-30-2016, 07:17 PM
It would be nice to have gedmatch kit nunbers for the calabrians with extreme mena scores.

Sikeliot
03-30-2016, 07:39 PM
It would be nice to have gedmatch kit nunbers for the calabrians with extreme mena scores.

I have one, actually. same for one of the Sicilians.

Larth
04-07-2016, 11:18 PM
"Italian" component lacks the Northeast European affinity present in the Balkans and in most Greeks, so higher Italian and lower Balkan means that the Greek individual in question has smaller affinity to NE European (Baltic/Slavic/Steppe/Yamnaya/etc.).

Steppe/Yamnaya is not the same of Baltic/Slavic and neither a NE European component.

Morges
04-25-2016, 10:12 AM
Asimakidis I don't see your results but I'm quite interested because the Greeks from Asia Minor are different from other Greeks for the few results I've seen. Are you Pontian no?Was the Pontus colonized by the ancient Greeks in the old times like they settled westward here?

Morges
04-25-2016, 03:08 PM
Sikeliot do you remember the results of those Pontian Greeks?

Sikeliot
04-25-2016, 03:20 PM
Sikeliot do you remember the results of those Pontian Greeks?

Something like 80% Middle East and 20% Italian. No Balkan except minor percentages.

Morges
04-25-2016, 03:21 PM
Something like 80% Middle East and 20% Italian. No Balkan except minor percentages.

So the hellenization in Anatolia was more likely culturally rather than a massive settlements...

Sikeliot
04-25-2016, 03:49 PM
So the hellenization in Anatolia was more likely culturally rather than a massive settlements...

Yes. Outside of continental Greece, this is how Hellenization happened.

Morges
04-25-2016, 03:54 PM
Yes. Outside of continental Greece, this is how Hellenization happened.

It might be interesting to see what is the first reference population for the Pontians, I have read many get Armenians at the first population in Oracle. Such interesting.

Sikeliot
04-25-2016, 03:57 PM
It might be interesting to see what is the first reference population for the Pontians, I have read many get Armenians at the first population in Oracle. Such interesting.

Usually other groups in the Caucasus, which suggests Pontians are of native Caucasian origins.

Western Anatolian Greeks are more similar to southern Italians and the Aegean.

Morges
04-25-2016, 04:09 PM
Who knows what these ones are genetically. Ethnic Greeks lived there or like Pontians simply hellenized locals?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochian_Greek_Christians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Egypt

Sikeliot
04-25-2016, 04:19 PM
Who knows what these ones are genetically. Ethnic Greeks lived there or like Pontians simply hellenized locals?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochian_Greek_Christians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Egypt

Egyptian Greeks are literally ethnic Greeks living in Egypt. I have the genetic result of one on GEDmatch and they're even less Near Eastern than many islanders.

I don't know about the others, but from what I have seen in the Paschou et al. study, Cappadocian Greeks are genetic West Asians, thus Hellenized. I assume the same is true for Antioch Greeks, of which only few exist today.

Morges
04-25-2016, 04:27 PM
Uhm the Antiochian Greek's wikipedia page said they are around one million and half scattered in many parts of the world, but not in Greece. Curious.

Sikeliot
04-25-2016, 04:36 PM
Uhm the Antiochian Greek's wikipedia page said they are around one million and half scattered in many parts of the world, but not in Greece. Curious.

Chances are they are Hellenized natives and do not even consider themselves ethnic Greeks, just Greek Orthodox Christians.

Did you receive the message I sent you?

vettor
04-25-2016, 06:33 PM
Usually other groups in the Caucasus, which suggests Pontians are of native Caucasian origins.

Western Anatolian Greeks are more similar to southern Italians and the Aegean.

I think the Italian influence/genetics is more modern in the Aegean than renaissance or medieval.

After Italy defeated Turkey in 1912 , many Italian families where sent to populate and mix with the indigenous Greeks on these Aegean islands.
Italian was compulsory in all schools.

My Greek friend from Samos , his father, knows italian 100% and stated his father moved from syracuse ( sicily) to Samos at the end of WW1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Islands_of_the_Aegean

IMO, Older Italian genetically in the Aegean , seems to be "washed away" due to the small population over many centuries.

Sikeliot
04-25-2016, 06:36 PM
I think the Italian influence/genetics is more modern in the Aegean than renaissance or medieval.

After Italy defeated Turkey in 1912 , many Italian families where sent to populate and mix with the indigenous Greeks on these Aegean islands.
Italian was compulsory in all schools.

My Greek friend from Samos , his father, knows italian 100% and stated his father moved from syracuse ( sicily) to Samos at the end of WW1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Islands_of_the_Aegean

IMO, Older Italian genetically in the Aegean , seems to be "washed away" due to the small population over many centuries.

I don't agree with this hypothesis. Nearly every Aegean islander scores Italian as their primary component on 23andme, so unless Greek islanders are all of recent Italian descent, some of it is ancient.

I suspect populations like Minoans, Pelasgians, Mycenaeans if alive today would score large portions of Italian too.

wandering_amorite
04-25-2016, 10:38 PM
9012

My friend, whose mother is Calabrian, with family lore (or amateur scholarship) suggesting an Arbereshe origin.

Does the 1:1 Italian:Balkan ratio here pretty much back that up?

Note: his father is mostly Irish, with some English and Spanish ancestry.

Sikeliot
04-25-2016, 10:59 PM
9012

My friend, whose mother is Calabrian, with family lore (or amateur scholarship) suggesting an Arbereshe origin.

Does the 1:1 Italian:Balkan ratio here pretty much back that up?

Either that or significant Greek influence, but all of the people I know of 100% ancestry from Calabria never score above 10% of Balkan so it may be Albanian too.

Morges
04-26-2016, 08:32 AM
I think the Italian influence/genetics is more modern in the Aegean than renaissance or medieval.

After Italy defeated Turkey in 1912 , many Italian families where sent to populate and mix with the indigenous Greeks on these Aegean islands.
Italian was compulsory in all schools.

My Greek friend from Samos , his father, knows italian 100% and stated his father moved from syracuse ( sicily) to Samos at the end of WW1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Islands_of_the_Aegean

IMO, Older Italian genetically in the Aegean , seems to be "washed away" due to the small population over many centuries.

I don't think so, most of these Italians have returned to Italy, like the French and other Europeans returned to France after abandoned the colonies. Italians have abandoned Lybia and Somalia for example and returned to homeland.

Sikeliot
04-26-2016, 03:34 PM
I don't think so, most of these Italians have returned to Italy, like the French and other Europeans returned to France after abandoned the colonies. Italians have abandoned Lybia and Somalia for example and returned to homeland.

Yes. As I mentioned the likely scenario is that Aegean islanders were always more similar to southern Italians.

sciencediver
04-26-2016, 05:41 PM
Some forum members argue that the Italian on 23andme is just ancient Italian or Neolithic overlap .If this were true then how could one explain:

1- that some Cretan ''outliers'', who are still as Neolithic as the rest of the island, score very low Italian compared to the average of the island?
2-that Italian peaks in places where the probability of Italian+RomeoByzantine-related ancestry is the highest , ie Dodecanese (under Italian rule until recently), Crete (mostly Byzantine . + 500 years under Venice) and the Anatolian Greeks , aka the Romioi of Anatolia.
3-That Crete, who is more neolithic+CHG than the Dodecanese, scores lower Italian than them ,almost always.
4-If Italian is East Med, then why do Albanians and Greek mainlanders score very little of it?
5-If it is indeed just overlap, why doesn't it fall under the ''nonspecific southern european'' instead of Italian?
6-Italy is always in the top 5 countries of ancestry for the Greek regions that get Italian (Cyprus, Dodecanese, Crete,'' Anatolian'' Greeks.

Dorkymon
04-26-2016, 07:09 PM
Some forum members argue that the Italian on 23andme is just ancient Italian or Neolithic overlap .If this were true then how could one explain:

1- that some Cretan ''outliers'', who are still as Neolithic as the rest of the island, score very low Italian compared to the average of the island?
2-that Italian peaks in places where the probability of Italian+RomeoByzantine-related ancestry is the highest , ie Dodecanese (under Italian rule until recently), Crete (mostly Byzantine . + 500 years under Venice) and the Anatolian Greeks , aka the Romioi of Anatolia.
3-That Crete, who is more neolithic+CHG than the Dodecanese, scores lower Italian than them ,almost always.
4-If Italian is East Med, then why do Albanians and Greek mainlanders score very little of it?
5-If it is indeed just overlap, why doesn't it fall under the ''nonspecific southern european'' instead of Italian?
6-Italy is always in the top 5 countries of ancestry for the Greek regions that get Italian (Cyprus, Dodecanese, Crete,'' Anatolian'' Greeks.

What I find interesting personally is that while it occurs at low levels, the Italian component is present in the majority of Romanian samples that I have found on 23andme.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6722-Romanian-23andme

Sikeliot
04-26-2016, 08:42 PM
Some forum members argue that the Italian on 23andme is just ancient Italian or Neolithic overlap .If this were true then how could one explain:

1- that some Cretan ''outliers'', who are still as Neolithic as the rest of the island, score very low Italian compared to the average of the island?
2-that Italian peaks in places where the probability of Italian+RomeoByzantine-related ancestry is the highest , ie Dodecanese (under Italian rule until recently), Crete (mostly Byzantine . + 500 years under Venice) and the Anatolian Greeks , aka the Romioi of Anatolia.
3-That Crete, who is more neolithic+CHG than the Dodecanese, scores lower Italian than them ,almost always.
4-If Italian is East Med, then why do Albanians and Greek mainlanders score very little of it?
5-If it is indeed just overlap, why doesn't it fall under the ''nonspecific southern european'' instead of Italian?
6-Italy is always in the top 5 countries of ancestry for the Greek regions that get Italian (Cyprus, Dodecanese, Crete,'' Anatolian'' Greeks.


What do those Cretan "outliers" score? Show me an example.

Anyway here is how I would address your points.

1) I cannot address this without seeing their results. If their low Italian comes at the expense of higher Balkan, then it means more mainland Greek ancestry; if it comes at the expense of higher West Asian, well some southern Italians score abnormal levels of Middle Eastern also.

2) Because these regions under Byzantine and Italian rule for longer were less affected by the Slavic migrations, saw fewer Slavs assimilated, and had less influence from Arvanites.

3) Dodecanese have less mainland Greek input than Cretans and score less "Balkan" as well.

4) Albanian and Greek mainlanders have less "East Med" affinity on GEDmatch calculators due to their elevated NE European influence, and also both groups are in 23andme's Balkan reference sample so that which they have gets hidden. Since Greeks and Albanians are being measured against Greeks and Albanians in the Balkan category, that will be what comes up first. If you removed the Balkan category, these Greeks would be scoring more Italian and more Eastern European than they do now.

5) Because the Italian reference population is partially made up of southern Italians, who likely are of close to identical genetic composition as Aegean islanders to begin with. If the sample was of Aegean islanders and called "Aegean islander", Italians would be scoring that.

6) Because of the higher Near Eastern ancestry in these Greeks and in the southern Italians they come close to genetically, compared to mainland Greeks.

vettor
04-27-2016, 06:16 AM
Some forum members argue that the Italian on 23andme is just ancient Italian or Neolithic overlap .If this were true then how could one explain:

1- that some Cretan ''outliers'', who are still as Neolithic as the rest of the island, score very low Italian compared to the average of the island?
2-that Italian peaks in places where the probability of Italian+RomeoByzantine-related ancestry is the highest , ie Dodecanese (under Italian rule until recently), Crete (mostly Byzantine . + 500 years under Venice) and the Anatolian Greeks , aka the Romioi of Anatolia.
3-That Crete, who is more neolithic+CHG than the Dodecanese, scores lower Italian than them ,almost always.
4-If Italian is East Med, then why do Albanians and Greek mainlanders score very little of it?
5-If it is indeed just overlap, why doesn't it fall under the ''nonspecific southern european'' instead of Italian?
6-Italy is always in the top 5 countries of ancestry for the Greek regions that get Italian (Cyprus, Dodecanese, Crete,'' Anatolian'' Greeks.

The only italian dna found in the aegean was in Crete and that was noted as R1b from Venice , who ruled the island for over 400 years
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html
since this R1b is only found in the northeast of Italy then it is an isolated marker of italian descent in the Aegean............since Venice ruled many Aegean islands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_the_Archipelago
it would seem that geneticts have already islolated what Italian markers are in the aegean islands.

I would think it more likely that since sicily was home to the Corinthian Greek settlement/colonies ( in ancient times ) for many many years and ads well as others from the Peloponnese , that these ancient Greeks became Italian over time and that is what is confusing people in this thread.

sciencediver
04-27-2016, 08:41 AM
The only italian dna found in the aegean was in Crete and that was noted as R1b from Venice , who ruled the island for over 400 years
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html
since this R1b is only found in the northeast of Italy then it is an isolated marker of italian descent in the Aegean............since Venice ruled many Aegean islands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_the_Archipelago
it would seem that geneticts have already islolated what Italian markers are in the aegean islands.

I would think it more likely that since sicily was home to the Corinthian Greek settlement/colonies ( in ancient times ) for many many years and ads well as others from the Peloponnese , that these ancient Greeks became Italian over time and that is what is confusing people in this thread.

Y-DNA is not the best way to investigate gene flow and anyways the above paper seems to back up what I said. I wouldn't really take their hypothesis too seriously though since the authors don't seem so sure about it either:

. Based on the age of the R1b-associated Y-STR variation for the Crete-without-Lasithi-Plateau population, the genetic affinity between R1b haplogroups from North Italy and Crete might be the imprints of an Italian gene flow before the end of the Minoan civilization and/or more recent migrations during the Roman and Venetian ruling periods.

Your theory about Ancient Greeks becoming Italians over the years is definitely a possibility but I don't see why the Modern Greeks of the Aegean would have more affinity to modern South Italy(despite the undeniable presence of Ancient Greek legacy in the Italian South) than to the modern Greeks of the mainland, considering that more than 2000 years have passed since then.

Anyways, the main problem with 23andme is that it is not STRUCTURE-based like the gedmatch calcs, so it is designed to show more recent drift (within the last 500 years according to their site). And then there's the issue of IBD sharing between Aegean Greeks and Italians, which simply can't be explained by ancient gene flow.

Sikeliot
04-27-2016, 03:21 PM
My explanation is that mainland Greeks (Corinthians, and other Peloponnese) did not have a massive genetic effect on southern Italy nor the Aegean islands (who were always more similar to begin with) and the island populations were Hellenized.

Therefore, the Aegean islands simply come up closer to the "Italian" reference sample than to the mainland Greek "Balkan" one because they have always been, are currently, and will always be more similar to them than to mainland Greece.

sciencediver
04-27-2016, 05:27 PM
My explanation is that mainland Greeks (Corinthians, and other Peloponnese) did not have a massive genetic effect on southern Italy nor the Aegean islands (who were always more similar to begin with) and the island populations were Hellenized.

Therefore, the Aegean islands simply come up closer to the "Italian" reference sample than to the mainland Greek "Balkan" one because they have always been, are currently, and will always be more similar to them than to mainland Greece.



Islanders from Greece are indeed more similar to Southern Italians because they have more Neolithic, more Caucasus and less Steppe-derived ancestry.Besides that's the main reason someone from Dodecanese would get Sicilians and Maltese as first pop on Oracle.

That being said , 23andme is different from Gedmatch calculators because it uses sets of SNPs instead of single SNPs to determine ancestry, so the probability of ancient overlap decreases quite a bit compared to Gedmatch.According to their own website, the precision of their system when it comes to DNA pieces categorized as ''Italian'' is 88% , which means that 88% of the time it is actual Italian ancestry.

And I know I've already said it twice but in this case one can simply not neglect the fact that more than 70% of Greek islanders get Italy in their top countries of ancestry, ie they share IBD segments with people from Italy .

Maybe someone should directly mail 23andme about this , it's the best way to know for sure.

Sikeliot
04-27-2016, 05:44 PM
Islanders from Greece are indeed more similar to Southern Italians because they have more Neolithic, more Caucasus and less Steppe-derived ancestry.Besides that's the main reason someone from Dodecanese would get Sicilians and Maltese as first pop on Oracle.

That being said , 23andme is different from Gedmatch calculators because it uses sets of SNPs instead of single SNPs to determine ancestry, so the probability of ancient overlap decreases quite a bit compared to Gedmatch.According to their own website, the precision of their system when it comes to DNA pieces categorized as ''Italian'' is 88% , which means that 88% of the time it is actual Italian ancestry.

And I know I've already said it twice but in this case one can simply not neglect the fact that more than 70% of Greek islanders get Italy in their top countries of ancestry, ie they share IBD segments with people from Italy .

Maybe someone should directly mail 23andme about this , it's the best way to know for sure.


Well going by that, then Aegean islanders have far more Italian ancestry than mainland Greek ancestry. But if you believe most of that is recent Italian, you're basically arguing that Greek islanders are transplanted southern Italians.

What is the difference genetically between Cretans and Dodecanese? Which Greeks are most Sicilian-like? And what are the Cyclades and North Aegean islands like? From the results I see, they vary from being similar to Dodecanese, to being shifted toward mainland Greece.

On 23andme, the North Aegean islands score a larger amount of Balkan.

Sikeliot
04-27-2016, 06:14 PM
The issue I have with that argument is that the islands are mostly of pre-Greek origin, so obviously they will not mostly score Balkan as they're not Balkan (except whatever mainland Greek input they have). So why shouldn't they come up Italian if they are descended from the exact same migration waves out of West Asia?

Cypriots score Italian too, but a much larger amount of Middle East than Greek islanders.

Larth
04-27-2016, 06:41 PM
Islanders from Greece are indeed more similar to Southern Italians because they have more Neolithic, more Caucasus and less Steppe-derived ancestry.Besides that's the main reason someone from Dodecanese would get Sicilians and Maltese as first pop on Oracle.

That being said , 23andme is different from Gedmatch calculators because it uses sets of SNPs instead of single SNPs to determine ancestry, so the probability of ancient overlap decreases quite a bit compared to Gedmatch.According to their own website, the precision of their system when it comes to DNA pieces categorized as ''Italian'' is 88% , which means that 88% of the time it is actual Italian ancestry.

And I know I've already said it twice but in this case one can simply not neglect the fact that more than 70% of Greek islanders get Italy in their top countries of ancestry, ie they share IBD segments with people from Italy .

Maybe someone should directly mail 23andme about this , it's the best way to know for sure.

Where do you exactly live in Greece, sciencediver?

sciencediver
04-27-2016, 06:44 PM
The issue I have with that argument is that the islands are mostly of pre-Greek origin, so obviously they will not mostly score Balkan as they're not Balkan (except whatever mainland Greek input they have). So why shouldn't they come up Italian if they are descended from the exact same migration waves out of West Asia?

Cypriots score Italian too, but a much larger amount of Middle East than Greek islanders.

That would imply that mainlanders have no pre-Greek and no West Asian ancestry at all, which is impossible.

If Italian was just preGreek Neolithic or even West Asian from the Bronze Age, why do mainlanders score so little of it(some score none at all) despite getting lots of neolithic and CHG on Gedmatch?

sciencediver
04-27-2016, 06:45 PM
Where do you exactly live in Greece, sciencediver?

Why do you ask?

Larth
04-27-2016, 06:47 PM
Why do you ask?

Just curious. Sorry you didn't like my question.

Sikeliot
04-27-2016, 06:49 PM
That would imply that mainlanders have no pre-Greek and no West Asian ancestry at all, which is impossible.

If Italian was just preGreek Neolithic or even West Asian from the Bronze Age, why do mainlanders score so little of it(some score none at all) despite getting lots of neolithic and CHG on Gedmatch?

Because the "Balkan" reference population consists of Greeks.

The Balkan on 23andme is a mixture of Romanian, Albanian and Greek. So the average of those three ethnicities is what mainland Greeks are being measured against. Therefore, most of their ancestry is captured in that Balkan cluster. For islanders, most of it is not.

sciencediver
04-27-2016, 06:52 PM
Just curious. Sorry you didn't like my question.

I'm from Crete, my ancestry is from Southern Chania.

http://www.askelena.com/greece/crete/maps/crete_chania_map.gif

sciencediver
04-27-2016, 07:07 PM
Because the "Balkan" reference population consists of Greeks.

The Balkan on 23andme is a mixture of Romanian, Albanian and Greek. So the average of those three ethnicities is what mainland Greeks are being measured against. Therefore, most of their ancestry is captured in that Balkan cluster. For islanders, most of it is not.

23andme's Balkan reference populations are Bulgarians, Romanians and Greeks(they don't specify if the Greeks are all from the mainland though).

I don't see why the excess of CHG-derived SNPs in islanders would have more affinity to the south of Italy than to the Greek mainland, considering that these islands have been part of Greece for more than 4000 years. The only possible explanation would be a more recent shared drift, be it Roman/Byzantine/Venetian or whatever else. 23andme ancestry composition doesnt work like Oracle, where a small increase in CHG makes Aegean Greeks plot with unrelated people like the Maltese and Ashkenazi Jews.

Sikeliot
04-27-2016, 07:11 PM
23andme's Balkan reference populations are Bulgarians, Romanians and Greeks(they don't specify if the Greeks are all from the mainland though).

I don't see why the excess of CHG-derived SNPs in islanders would have more affinity to the south of Italy than to the Greek mainland, considering that these islands have been part of Greece for more than 4000 years. The only possible explanation would be a more recent shared drift, be it Roman/Byzantine/Venetian or whatever else. 23andme ancestry composition doesnt work like Oracle, where a small increase in CHG makes Aegean Greeks plot with unrelated people like the Maltese and Ashkenazi Jews.


Maltese are not unrelated -- they are basically Sicilian. Malta was once part of Sicily and the people share common origins, surnames, etc. Most of them trace back to southwestern Sicily and to Palermo.

The lack of Northeast Euro influence in both the Aegean islands and southern Italy is why they plot closer together. Venetian influence would not make Aegean islanders akin to southern Italians, as Venetians are genetically closer to Austrians.

sciencediver
04-27-2016, 07:18 PM
Maltese are not unrelated -- they are basically Sicilian. Malta was once part of Sicily and the people share common origins, surnames, etc. Most of them trace back to southwestern Sicily and to Palermo.

The lack of Northeast Euro influence in both the Aegean islands and southern Italy is why they plot closer together. Venetian influence would not make Aegean islanders akin to southern Italians, as Venetians are genetically closer to Austrians.

Central Greece has the same amount of NorthEast Euro influence as Sicily, yet they don't get any Italian at all.

And your argument still doesn't explain the IBD sharing between Greek islanders and Italians.

Sikeliot
04-27-2016, 07:24 PM
Central Greece has the same amount of NorthEast Euro influence as Sicily

Then that is an outlier region, because Peloponnesians score more than Sicilians do.

sciencediver
04-27-2016, 07:38 PM
Then that is an outlier region, because Peloponnesians score more than Sicilians do.

I'm just giving you an example of a region in the mainland that would be fully Balkan by 23andme standards despite not being particularly affected by the Slavic migrations.

We can't sit here all day and argue about Greeks' Italian score without knowing how 23andme's algorithm works. If you already have a 23andme account it would be best if you messaged them. I would have already asked them myself but unfortunately I'm not a client of theirs.

Larth
04-27-2016, 07:47 PM
I'm from Crete, my ancestry is from Southern Chania.

Pretty nice island. I have been in Crete twice.

Could you suggest me some peer review paper that has investigated the IBD sharing between Italians and Greeks?



Then that is an outlier region, because Peloponnesians score more than Sicilians do.


Central Greece seems to be the most inhabited region in Greece with 4,591,568. Basically almost 50% of the Greeks live there. How can be outlier the most inhabited region?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Greece

sciencediver
04-27-2016, 08:07 PM
Pretty nice island. I have been in Crete twice.

Could you suggest me some peer review paper that has investigated the IBD sharing between Italians and Greeks?





Central Greece seems to be the most inhabited region in Greece with 4,591,568. Basically almost 50% of the Greeks live there. How can be outlier the most inhabited region?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Greece

I don't know if there are scientific papers that have looked into this. All I know is that most Greek islanders get Italy in their top 5 countries of ancestry on 23andme, which is based on IBD sharing. Sikeliot has posted about it in the past, the quote below is from one of his threads:


Out of 100 times;

Greece appears 97 (the ones it doesn't are 2 Pontians and 1 Cypriot)
Romania appears 72
Italy appears 65
Poland appears 57
Bulgaria appears 34
Russia appears 33
Albania appears 30
Turkey appears 19

sciencediver
04-27-2016, 08:22 PM
The issue I have with that argument is that the islands are mostly of pre-Greek origin, so obviously they will not mostly score Balkan as they're not Balkan (except whatever mainland Greek input they have). So why shouldn't they come up Italian if they are descended from the exact same migration waves out of West Asia?

Cypriots score Italian too, but a much larger amount of Middle East than Greek islanders.

My bad, maybe you were right all along. I just did some research about ''countries of ancestry'' feature and it doesn't seem to be as useful as I initially thought concerning IBD sharing between populations. I thought the top countries of ancestry covered the majority of one's genome yet they don't seem to account for more than 10-20% max from what I saw. So basically the fact Italy is in the top 5 for some Greeks doesn't really imply heavy Italian geneflow after all.

My apologies bro.

Sikeliot
04-27-2016, 08:42 PM
To me it's definitely that island Greeks are similar to southern Italians due to their ancient roots.

Larth
04-27-2016, 08:43 PM
I don't know if there are scientific papers that have looked into this. All I know is that most Greek islanders get Italy in their top 5 countries of ancestry on 23andme, which is based on IBD sharing. Sikeliot has posted about it in the past, the quote below is from one of his threads:

Thanks. So all we have for now is 23andme, a commercial company. We definitely need a peer review paper on it.

Thanks for this, but these are Greeks, right? Based on which kind of sample? 23andme's clients?



Out of 100 times;

Greece appears 97 (the ones it doesn't are 2 Pontians and 1 Cypriot)
Romania appears 72
Italy appears 65
Poland appears 57
Bulgaria appears 34
Russia appears 33
Albania appears 30

Dimanto
04-27-2016, 11:21 PM
To me it's definitely that island Greeks are similar to southern Italians due to their ancient roots.

From a common Pelasgian source I'd say.

Dimanto
04-27-2016, 11:32 PM
I'm just giving you an example of a region in the mainland that would be fully Balkan by 23andme standards despite not being particularly affected by the Slavic migrations.

We can't sit here all day and argue about Greeks' Italian score without knowing how 23andme's algorithm works. If you already have a 23andme account it would be best if you messaged them. I would have already asked them myself but unfortunately I'm not a client of theirs.

Perhaps the sample size of 147 Greeks in the Balkan reference doesn't have enough Greeks from the Aegan Islands to begin with. This could probably cause the individuals tested to get high scores of ''Italian'' because they're not close to Greeks from the Peloponnesos or other populations in the Balkan reference, but in fact form their own cluster. The ''next best'' source would then be Southern Italians (from a common Pelasgian source) - and because the Italian reference has lots of Southern Italians/Sicilians in it, they get ''Italian'' rather than Balkan.

I see Malta is in the Balkan reference too, so do they score more Balkan than Southern Italians do? and if so why are they in the Balkan reference.

Larth
04-28-2016, 01:07 AM
From a common Pelasgian source I'd say.

Actually we don't know who really were the Pelasgians. Many scholars believe that Pelasgian is just a broad term, not even an ethnonym, referred to different and unrelated populations.

Dimanto
04-28-2016, 12:34 PM
Actually we don't know who really were the Pelasgians. Many scholars believe that Pelasgian is just a broad term, not even an ethnonym, referred to different and unrelated populations.

Could be, although I hereby refer to the ancestors of the ancient Greeks, and tribes such as the Oscans, Latins and Sicelians as Holm illustrated in one of his books about the Sicilians.

Dimanto
04-28-2016, 12:38 PM
Here's an AC of someone from Malta:

http://i68.tinypic.com/23ua55l.png

He had one parent tested and both parents were similar in terms of percentages.

Larth
04-28-2016, 03:11 PM
Could be, although I hereby refer to the ancestors of the ancient Greeks, and tribes such as the Oscans, Latins and Sicelians as Holm illustrated in one of his books about the Sicilians.

Adolf Holm's books are very obsolete. Oscans, Latins, and even Sicels (or Siculs), were Italic tribes and originally part of the Indo-European migrations from Central Europe to Italy (the expansion of Bell-Beaker and mostly of Urnfield/La Tene/Halstatt cultures to Italy), such as the Umbrians, the Sabines, the Venetis, the proto-Villanovans, or the prehistoric cultures of northern Italy lately Celticized. Indo-Europeanization of Italy, such as the Indo-Europeanization of Europe, is a long and complicated process, there were many different waves in a relatively large span of time, but there is now a broad consensus among modern scholars at least on the main points.

The origins of the Latins have clearly nothing to do with the Pelasgians, Latin is clearly an Indo-European language and the Latins can be compared, even if they don't share exactly the same roots, to the IE Hellenes who replaced and assimilated the previous inhabitants of Greece (called by some ancient Greek writers "Pelasgians") and imposed to them their IE language. Of course we can discuss how much the Italic tribes assimilated the previous inhabitants (as we could discuss about the same in Greece or anywhere else in Europe), but this does not change their origins.

The Pelasgian issue is fascinating but unfortunately the ancient Greek authors use the term "Pelasgian" in contradictory ways, and there are the most diverse theories about the Pelasgians. Further confusion was added by ancient peoples themselves for which boast an origin of high antiquity from east was a sign of prestige. The most famous case was that of the Trojan origin of the Romans, that was simply a founding myth of Rome created by Roman historians many centuries after the founding of Rome.

Dimanto
04-28-2016, 03:23 PM
Adolf Holm's books are very obsolete. Oscans, Latins, and even Sicels (or Siculs), were Italic tribes and originally part of the Indo-European migrations from Central Europe to Italy (the expansion of Bell-Beaker and mostly of Urnfield/La Tene/Halstatt cultures to Italy), such as the Umbrians, the Sabines, the Venetis, the proto-Villanovans, or the prehistoric cultures of northern Italy lately Celticized. Indo-Europeanization of Italy, such as the Indo-Europeanization of Europe, is a long and complicated process, there were many different waves in a relatively large span of time, but there is now a broad consensus among modern scholars at least on the main points.

The origins of the Latins have clearly nothing to do with the Pelasgians, Latin is clearly an Indo-European language and the Latins can be compared, even if they don't share exactly the same roots, to the IE Hellenes who replaced and assimilated the previous inhabitants of Greece (called by some ancient Greek writers "Pelasgians") and imposed to them their IE language. Of course we can discuss how much the Italic tribes assimilated the previous inhabitants (as we could discuss about the same in Greece or anywhere else in Europe), but this does not change their origins.

The Pelasgian issue is fascinating but unfortunately the ancient Greek authors use the term "Pelasgian" in contradictory ways, and there are the most diverse theories about the Pelasgians. Further confusion was added by ancient peoples themselves for which boast an origin of high antiquity from east was a sign of prestige. The most famous case was that of the Trojan origin of the Romans, that was simply a founding myth of Rome created by Roman historians many centuries after the founding of Rome.

I agree that Holm's books are mostly obsolete, but I primarily used the term to point out they came from a ''similar source''.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to properly explain the root and at the same time confusion of the term ''Pelasgian''. Hopefully population genetics will eventually shed more light on the situation.

Larth
04-28-2016, 03:39 PM
I agree that Holm's books are mostly obsolete, but I primarily used the term to point out they came from a ''similar source''.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to properly explain the root and at the same time confusion of the term ''Pelasgian''.

You're welcome.



Hopefully population genetics will eventually shed more light on the situation.


I do agree with you, population genetics will help us, but clearly not a commercial company as 23andme but we need more peer review papers.

I mean, if a Maltese scores higher Italian on 23andme than most real Italians we have problem, Houston. The 23andme's Italian doesn't correspond to the truth.

Dimanto
04-28-2016, 04:02 PM
You're welcome.





I do agree with you, population genetics will help us, but clearly not a commercial company as 23andme but we need more peer review papers.

I mean, if a Maltese scores higher Italian on 23andme than most real Italians we have problem, Houston. The 23andme's Italian doesn't correspond to the truth.

Well Maltese are not very different from Southern Italians, and Northern Italians tend to score significant numbers of North Western Euro which simply points to them being partially related to Central Europeans rather than Central and Southern Italians.

Central Italians get the highest scores of ''Italian'' on average, and in the case of Southern Italians/-Sicilians this is primarily combined with a MENA percentage ranging between 2/30 %.

Sikeliot already pointed out that most Italians in the Italian reference are of Southern Italian origins, and that Maltese are genetically Sicilian -- so this explains them getting similar percentages to Southern Italians. I don't see how this could conflict with what is known about the Maltese. Why they are in the Balkan reference is a topic for another day..

However if you want to talk about real issues regarding 23andme's estimation of ''Italian'' you'd have to consider Aegan Islanders, Armenians or people who are a mixture of Northern/Western/Central European and Levantine, who get excessive amounts of Italian. Although in the case of the latter, this is largely fixed with the testing of one or two parents due to phasing.

We definitely need more peer reviewed papers though, and yes 23andme can never give us enough data to form proper scientific conclusions on these issues.

Larth
04-28-2016, 04:31 PM
Well Maltese are not very different from Southern Italians, and Northern Italians tend to score significant numbers of North Western Euro which simply points to them being partially related to Central Europeans rather than Central and Southern Italians.

Central Italians get the highest scores of ''Italian'' on average, and in the case of Southern Italians/-Sicilians this is primarily combined with a MENA percentage ranging between 2/30 %.

Sikeliot already pointed out that most Italians in the Italian reference are of Southern Italian origins, and that Maltese are genetically Sicilian so this explains them getting similar percentages to Southern Italians. I don't see how this could conflict with what is known about the Maltese. Why they are in the Balkan reference is a topic for another day..

However if you want to talk about real issues regarding 23andme's estimation of ''Italian'' you'd have to consider Aegan Islanders, Armenians or people who are a mixture of Northern/Western/Central European and Levantine, who get excessive amounts of Italian. Although in the case of the latter, this is largely fixed with the testing of one or two parents due to phasing.

We definitely need more peer reviewed papers though, and yes 23andme can never give us enough data to form proper scientific conclusions on these issues.

Thanks for the detailed recap. Probably that's me but I can not take seriously, on a more scientific conclusions, a commercial company whose primary goal is to earn money. Establish what is Italian, but this applies to any other population and many are lacking in 23andme, it is an arbitrary choice made for commercial purposes. Again I agree with you, we definitely need more peer reviewed papers.

sciencediver
04-28-2016, 05:22 PM
It seems Bedouins and Palestinians are taken as reference for North African(???) and Cypriots are listed among their Middle Eastern samples.
http://z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p488197/23andme_reference.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/u6FrVLk.png

This would explain why Cypriots and Southern Italians score so much Middle Eastern btw.

Sikeliot
04-28-2016, 05:30 PM
Cypriots are genetically very close to Samaritans and to some Levantine Christians. They are genetically much closer to them than to anyone in Greece, except for some outlying islanders.

Morges
04-28-2016, 05:34 PM
This would explain why Cypriots and Southern Italians score so much Middle Eastern btw.
And the Greeks from islands and Anatolia score Middle Eastern admixture.

Sikeliot
04-28-2016, 05:45 PM
Maybe we should interpret it this way:

Greece does not score Italian nor Middle Eastern on 23andme because they do not exceed the "normal" level of Neolithic West Asian ancestry typical of other Balkan nations and much of Italy.

Southern Italy, Sicily, Malta, and the Aegean islands do exceed that level, due to having roughly 20% post-Neolithic West Asian ancestry. Therefore, they will score excess Middle Eastern, and their main European component will be "Italian" which has higher West Asian affinity than does the "Balkan" reference sample.

sciencediver
04-28-2016, 05:48 PM
And the Greeks from islands and Anatolia score Middle Eastern admixture.

Not all of them do, but anyways when did I say they didn't?


Cypriots are genetically very close to Samaritans and to some Levantine Christians. They are genetically much closer to them than to anyone in Greece, except for some outlying islanders.

Cypriots plot between Southeast Europe , West Asia and Levant, but that doesn't make them Levantines. I was talking about their "Middle East" percentage on 23andme , not about their position on PCA plots.

Larth
04-28-2016, 06:03 PM
This would explain why Cypriots and Southern Italians score so much Middle Eastern btw.

Not all the southern Italians score it, as I know.

Sikeliot
04-28-2016, 06:04 PM
Not all the southern Italians score it, as I know.

I have yet to see someone from Campania, Calabria, or Sicily not score it. The percentages range a lot though -- anywhere from 2% at the lowest to as high as 30%.

sciencediver
04-28-2016, 06:08 PM
Maybe we should interpret it this way:

Greece does not score Italian nor Middle Eastern on 23andme because they do not exceed the "normal" level of Neolithic West Asian ancestry typical of other Balkan nations and much of Italy.

Southern Italy, Sicily, Malta, and the Aegean islands do exceed that level, due to having roughly 20% post-Neolithic West Asian ancestry. Therefore, they will score excess Middle Eastern, and their main European component will be "Italian" which has higher West Asian affinity than does the "Balkan" reference sample.

Of course they will score excess Middle Eastern if 23andme has all the Eastmed countries(including Cyprus) in their Middle Eastern reference.If you take this into consideration it's actually quite surprising that some Mediterranean islanders still come out 100% European on Ancestry Composition.

Larth
04-28-2016, 06:08 PM
I have yet to see someone from Campania, Calabria, or Sicily not score it. The percentages range a lot though -- anywhere from 2% at the lowest to as high as 30%.

I'm not using 23andme but another company, but I have seen the results of a guy from Calabria and he didn't score it.

Sikeliot
04-28-2016, 06:18 PM
I'm not using 23andme but another company, but I have seen the results of a guy from Calabria and he didn't score it.

That surprises me as Calabria is often the most outlying region. There are fake results being spread around by the "ItalicRoots' website that are from before the 23andme update, claiming people don't score anything but Italian at 100%, but this is no longer the case for anyone since the update and the changing of reference populations.

On the other hand, most mainland Greeks score no Middle Eastern, but nearly every islander does. I've seen percentages again range from 2% to 30%.

Larth
04-28-2016, 06:39 PM
That surprises me as Calabria is often the most outlying region. There are fake results being spread around by the "ItalicRoots' website that are from before the 23andme update, claiming people don't score anything but Italian at 100%, but this is no longer the case for anyone since the update and the changing of reference populations.

Being the most outlying region doesn't imply that all the Calabrese are the same and they all score the same. Calabrese are not a race but a population. Never seen an Italian scoring 100% Italian but yes I do have seen a Calabrese scoring 0% Mena.

vettor
04-28-2016, 07:14 PM
In 23andme the % of Italian within each person sees a trend of where they came from in Italy............a quick summary is:

1 to 39% = north italian

40 to 59% = central italian

60 to 100% = south italian

The reason that south Italian shows more Italian in the percentage is clearly based on USA italian samples who came in majority to the USA from southern Italy.

The reverse of the above would apply if one used only brazilian, and argentinian sample in the percentage of italian from these regions only

It would say ..........60 to 100% = north Italian

and 0 to 59% = south Italian

Dimanto
04-28-2016, 07:32 PM
In 23andme the % of Italian within each person sees a trend of where they came from in Italy............a quick summary is:

1 to 39% = north italian

40 to 59% = central italian

60 to 100% = south italian

The reason that south Italian shows more Italian in the percentage is clearly based on USA italian samples who came in majority to the USA from southern Italy.

The reverse of the above would apply if one used only brazilian, and argentinian sample in the percentage of italian from these regions only

It would say ..........60 to 100% = north Italian

and 0 to 59% = south Italian

Unless with ''Central Italian'' you mean North Tuscan your table is incorrect.

Dimanto
04-28-2016, 08:05 PM
Lombardia: http://i63.tinypic.com/10yhxjm.png

Friuli-Venezia Giulia (Udine): http://i66.tinypic.com/1zy7uxz.png

Veneto: http://i68.tinypic.com/14l3plk.png

Tuscan (Firenze): http://i67.tinypic.com/2nc2lgz.png

Tuscan (Massa): http://i67.tinypic.com/nbutth.png

Marche (Ancona): http://i68.tinypic.com/281vthl.png

Marche (Loro Piceno, Mascerata) : http://i66.tinypic.com/nn8w9h.png

Lazio (Frosinone/Pico): http://i65.tinypic.com/sxp25g.png

Napoli: http://i63.tinypic.com/i5vmf5.png

Salerno (Campagna): http://i64.tinypic.com/14kadlg.png

Calabria: http://i64.tinypic.com/2nsvrzr.png

Sicily (Trapani) : http://i68.tinypic.com/migr9x.png

Larth
04-28-2016, 09:34 PM
Unless with ''Central Italian'' you mean North Tuscan your table is incorrect.

What do you mean with north Tuscan?

Thanks for posting the results, but some are too small and there is a bit of confusion with who is who. The result from Ancona, Marche, no way he is fully from there.

Sikeliot
04-28-2016, 09:43 PM
That result above from Trapani in Sicily has the lowest MENA of any Sicilian I have seen.

Dimanto
04-28-2016, 09:47 PM
What do you mean with north Tuscan?

Thanks for posting the results, but some are too small and there is a bit of confusion with who is who. The result from Ancona, Marche, no way he is fully from there.

Look at their GSP position. The MENA score says nothing significant really. I've seen Sicilians getting low amounts of MENA but still being positioned in the Near East in the GSP (Global Similarity Plot) of 23andme and getting similar percentages of West Asian in GEDmatch like the ones getting higher amounts of MENA.

When I didn't have 1 parent tested I had 0,1% MENA and now after phasing it has changed to over 4%, just to give an example.

23andme serves best when having tested 1 or more parents, and this is shown in the results. Most of the AC's you've seen are from people that haven't tested other than themselves.

Sikeliot
04-28-2016, 10:01 PM
Yes. We should not take the 23andme percentages to be the be-all, end-all but they are definitely significant to some extent.

Morges
04-29-2016, 10:17 AM
Lombardia: http://i63.tinypic.com/10yhxjm.png

Friuli-Venezia Giulia (Udine): http://i66.tinypic.com/1zy7uxz.png

Veneto: http://i68.tinypic.com/14l3plk.png

Tuscan (Firenze): http://i67.tinypic.com/2nc2lgz.png

Tuscan (Massa): http://i67.tinypic.com/nbutth.png

Marche (Ancona): http://i68.tinypic.com/281vthl.png

Marche (Loro Piceno, Mascerata) : http://i66.tinypic.com/nn8w9h.png

Lazio (Frosinone/Pico): http://i65.tinypic.com/sxp25g.png

Napoli: http://i63.tinypic.com/i5vmf5.png

Salerno (Campagna): http://i64.tinypic.com/14kadlg.png

Calabria: http://i64.tinypic.com/2nsvrzr.png

Sicily (Trapani) : http://i68.tinypic.com/migr9x.png

Trapani city or province?because I've a friend from Erice who scores similar percentages. His Y-DNA is R1b L51.

sciencediver
04-29-2016, 11:22 AM
My own ancestry is from a region of Crete on the southwestern coast of the island that was semi-independent during Venetian rule, so if at some point I get tested with 23andme and score little to no Italian, it would mean that the Italian that shows up in the rest of the island is recent. On the contrary, if I score lots of Italian like the average Cretan would, it probably means Sikeliot is right and ''Italian'' is simple overlap.

Hopefully I will take the test during the summer.

Morges
04-29-2016, 02:43 PM
4/4 Crotone (Calabria)
http://s32.postimg.org/qo0u08ul1/Calabrese_23andme.png (http://postimage.org/)

Sikeliot
04-29-2016, 03:11 PM
Trapani city or province?because I've a friend from Erice who scores similar percentages. His Y-DNA is R1b L51.

I have to wonder if such people are at least in part of recent mainland Italian ancestry.

But what is weird is, the woman above from Trapani (whose results I originally posted) does not have very different GEDmatch results from someone who is from Messina I know and scores 20% MENA.

Morges
04-29-2016, 03:25 PM
The Erice guy isn't part foreigner, he is 100% trapanese since 1600 at least, in his genealogical research.

Sikeliot
04-29-2016, 03:47 PM
The Erice guy isn't part foreigner, he is 100% trapanese since 1600 at least, in his genealogical research.

By the way did you get the message I sent you days ago?

Ok well this will show you what I meant. The first is the woman from Trapani posted above, the person below her is from Messina and scores 20% MENA on 23andme. These are on the same calculator on GEDmatch.


# Population Percent
1 Anatolian_NF 42.83
2 Caucasus_HG 23.02
3 European_HG 17.4
4 Near_East 13.63
5 Sub-Saharan 1.35
6 Oceanian 0.66
7 South_African_HG 0.56
8 Beringian 0.36
9 South_Asian 0.18

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian_West 1.82
2 Sicilian_East 4.46
3 Ashkenazi_Jew 6.06
4 Tuscan 7.72
5 Turkish_Jew 8.55
6 Greek 8.73
7 Moroccan_Jew 8.82
8 Albanian 10.17
9 Libyan_Jew 13.23
10 Tunisian_Jew 15.13
11 Bulgarian 15.89
12 Italian_Bergamo 16.08
13 Spanish_Canaries 16.13
14 Cypriot 16.25
15 Turkish_Aydin 17
16 Spanish_Southwest 17.56
17 Lebanese 18.3
18 Romanian 20.96
19 Spanish_Northeast 21.32
20 Turkish 21.68

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And here is the person from Messina... there is almost no difference.

# Population Percent
1 Anatolian_NF 43.55
2 Caucasus_HG 23.65
3 European_HG 16.09
4 Near_East 13.63
5 Sub-Saharan 2.33
6 East_Asian 0.33
7 Siberian 0.27
8 South_African_HG 0.13
9 South_Asian 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian_West 2.07
2 Sicilian_East 3.61
3 Ashkenazi_Jew 5.7
4 Turkish_Jew 7.49
5 Moroccan_Jew 7.57
6 Tuscan 8.69
7 Greek 9.68
8 Albanian 11.28
9 Libyan_Jew 12.29
10 Tunisian_Jew 14.22
11 Cypriot 15.1
12 Spanish_Canaries 16.77
13 Turkish_Aydin 16.96
14 Italian_Bergamo 17.08
15 Bulgarian 17.25
16 Lebanese 17.57
17 Spanish_Southwest 18.66
18 Druze 20.81
19 Syrian 21.22
20 Turkish 21.42

Larth
04-29-2016, 04:26 PM
I have to wonder if such people are at least in part of recent mainland Italian ancestry.

If a Sicilian has some recent mainland Italian ancestry is aware of that and almost always doesn't hide it.

Morges
04-29-2016, 04:59 PM
This is my friend from Erice, 4/4 ericino.
http://s32.postimg.org/vt3ubqevp/Lo_Piccolo_Erice.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

Sikeliot
04-29-2016, 05:05 PM
My question is why do they score the same then as other Sicilians on GEDmatch, roughly?

I have not yet seen such low Middle Eastern from any other part of the island on 23andme, though.

Morges
04-29-2016, 05:08 PM
And this is another my friend, Lentini (between Catania and Siracusa) + San Cataldo (Caltanissetta)
http://s32.postimg.org/ppqg9q9jp/Catania_Caltanissetta.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

Sikeliot
04-29-2016, 05:26 PM
The same is true for Aegean islanders (some have low MENA like those above, others high) but somehow all of them plot in the same place and have similar results on GEDmatch? Why?

Sikeliot
04-29-2016, 06:19 PM
Also, the Balkan in these results is likely mainland Greek input. All of Sicily has some degree of Greek input, though as I mentioned before, most of it would likely be from the islands and actual mainland Greek input is lower.

vettor
04-29-2016, 06:25 PM
My own ancestry is from a region of Crete on the southwestern coast of the island that was semi-independent during Venetian rule, so if at some point I get tested with 23andme and score little to no Italian, it would mean that the Italian that shows up in the rest of the island is recent. On the contrary, if I score lots of Italian like the average Cretan would, it probably means Sikeliot is right and ''Italian'' is simple overlap.

Hopefully I will take the test during the summer.

I do not know what you mean by semi-independent ................Crete was known as candia under Venice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia

It was the only territory that Venice allowed wife's and children to migrate to in all their overseas colonies. It was the only place apart from Venice where they manufactured boats and arms.
In 1645 , when Venice Lost the island to the Ottomans after a 23 year war.............the cretans who did not want to stay where resettled in other Venetian colonies of the Ionion islands and Corfu ( which where never taken by the Ottomans) .

Venetians would never inter marry with cretans because they would loose their nobility status.............of course , there is always a way around any rule.

so, to conclude , you should score low for Italian and have a high score for Balkan

vettor
04-29-2016, 06:33 PM
Lombardia: http://i63.tinypic.com/10yhxjm.png

Friuli-Venezia Giulia (Udine): http://i66.tinypic.com/1zy7uxz.png

Veneto: http://i68.tinypic.com/14l3plk.png

Tuscan (Firenze): http://i67.tinypic.com/2nc2lgz.png

Tuscan (Massa): http://i67.tinypic.com/nbutth.png

Marche (Ancona): http://i68.tinypic.com/281vthl.png

Marche (Loro Piceno, Mascerata) : http://i66.tinypic.com/nn8w9h.png

Lazio (Frosinone/Pico): http://i65.tinypic.com/sxp25g.png

Napoli: http://i63.tinypic.com/i5vmf5.png

Salerno (Campagna): http://i64.tinypic.com/14kadlg.png

Calabria: http://i64.tinypic.com/2nsvrzr.png

Sicily (Trapani) : http://i68.tinypic.com/migr9x.png

Does not your score match what I stated?

here is my father, son and myself ...............I also have 300plus years of continuous registry documents on family lines
father-
99.6%European

Southern European
21.0%Italian
6.0%Balkan
4.1%Iberian
31.5%Broadly Southern European

Northwestern European
5.4%French & German
3.0%British & Irish
18.2%Broadly Northwestern European
0.6%Eastern European
0.1%Ashkenazi
9.7%Broadly European

one of my sons
99.4%European

Southern European
26.6%Italian
5.8%Iberian
18.0%Broadly Southern European

Northwestern European
14.2%French & German
23.7%Broadly Northwestern European
0.1%Ashkenazi
10.9%Broadly European

and myself
99.2%European

Southern European
34.3%Italian
3.4%Balkan
2.4%Iberian
0.6%Sardinian
16.3%Broadly Southern European

Northwestern European
12.5%French & German
2.2%British & Irish
18.5%Broadly Northwestern European
0.3%Ashkenazi
0.2%Eastern European
8.6%Broadly European

all from Veneto .............my mother's line is from the Carnic alps in Friuli and beyond that the border of Italy and Austria

Sikeliot
04-29-2016, 06:40 PM
so, to conclude , you should score low for Italian and have a high score for Balkan

But Cretans did not derive all of their ancestry from the mainland. When you see a Greek islander's result, you can assume however much Balkan they score is how much actual Greek DNA they have from the mainland.

Dimanto
04-29-2016, 06:44 PM
My question is why do they score the same then as other Sicilians on GEDmatch, roughly?

I have not yet seen such low Middle Eastern from any other part of the island on 23andme, though.

I'm actually amazed that you haven't seen it before..

vettor
04-29-2016, 06:44 PM
But Cretans did not derive all of their ancestry from the mainland. When you see a Greek islander's result, you can assume however much Balkan they score is how much actual Greek DNA they have from the mainland.

23andme state for these ancestry tests

Ancestry Composition tells you what percent of your DNA comes from each of 31 populations worldwide. This analysis includes DNA you received from all of your recent ancestors, on both sides of your family. The results reflect where your ancestors lived before the widespread migrations of the past few hundred years.

It states recent ancestors ................are you saying ancient ancestors?

Sikeliot
04-29-2016, 07:06 PM
23andme state for these ancestry tests

Ancestry Composition tells you what percent of your DNA comes from each of 31 populations worldwide. This analysis includes DNA you received from all of your recent ancestors, on both sides of your family. The results reflect where your ancestors lived before the widespread migrations of the past few hundred years.

It states recent ancestors ................are you saying ancient ancestors?


For Cretans to score Balkan, they'd need to have significant mainland Greek ancestry. Clearly, they do not.

vettor
04-29-2016, 07:18 PM
For Cretans to score Balkan, they'd need to have significant mainland Greek ancestry. Clearly, they do not.

The 23andme call for crete is that it is part of their Balkan group.............it does not mean they are mainland Greeks.

If a person is from Crete and he has a lot of Italian and that the tests state recent ancestors, then how would italian be in crete if prior to now ( Greek ) it was Ottoman land?

The only way it can work is that 23andme markers are much older than their "recent ancestor" system ................or..............they use a system like Natgeno would use Greece and southern Italy in one group , which they call Greek, but 23andme call it italian

sciencediver
04-29-2016, 07:27 PM
I do not know what you mean by semi-independent ................Crete was known as candia under Venice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia

It was the only territory that Venice allowed wife's and children to migrate to in all their overseas colonies. It was the only place apart from Venice where they manufactured boats and arms.
In 1645 , when Venice Lost the island to the Ottomans after a 23 year war.............the cretans who did not want to stay where resettled in other Venetian colonies of the Ionion islands and Corfu ( which where never taken by the Ottomans) .

Venetians would never inter marry with cretans because they would loose their nobility status.............of course , there is always a way around any rule.

so, to conclude , you should score low for Italian and have a high score for Balkan

My region of ancestry was actually isolated and de facto independent.I personally couldn't care less about having Italian ancestry but I wouldn't just ignore the high Italian score observed in the Greek results.

And then I don't know whether Venetians intermarried with Christian Cretans or not, but a small part of the Cretan Turks were actually Venetian converts who embraced islam in order not to lose their lands. Of course all the converts were deported to Turkey after the Lausanne treaty so none of these Turkified Venetians returned to Italy.

sciencediver
04-29-2016, 07:46 PM
The 23andme call for crete is that it is part of their Balkan group.............it does not mean they are mainland Greeks.

If a person is from Crete and he has a lot of Italian and that the tests state recent ancestors, then how would italian be in crete if prior to now ( Greek ) it was Ottoman land?

The only way it can work is that 23andme markers are much older than their "recent ancestor" system ................or..............they use a system like Natgeno would use Greece and southern Italy in one group , which they call Greek, but 23andme call it italian

By ''recent ancestors'' they probably mean the genetic makeup of the said ancestors, not necessarily their location. For example a half-German half-Greek living in the mainland in 1700 would probably come out 50 Balkan and 50 North European. If 23andme focused on deep/ancient ancestry instead of recent, the same person would probably score something like 33%North European, 33% Mediterranean, 33% Caucasus/Middle East .

Sikeliot
04-29-2016, 08:10 PM
My region of ancestry was actually isolated and de facto independent.I personally couldn't care less about having Italian ancestry but I wouldn't just ignore the high Italian score observed in the Greek results.

And then I don't know whether Venetians intermarried with Christian Cretans or not, but a small part of the Cretan Turks were actually Venetian converts who embraced islam in order not to lose their lands. Of course all the converts were deported to Turkey after the Lausanne treaty so none of these Turkified Venetians returned to Italy.


If Greek islanders got their Italian score from Venetians there would also be French/German appearing too, as Venetians are far from only scoring "Italian", they're basically Austrian genetically.

sciencediver
04-29-2016, 08:34 PM
If Greek islanders got their Italian score from Venetians there would also be French/German appearing too, as Venetians are far from only scoring "Italian", they're basically Austrian genetically.

Venetians are not the only possible source of Italian ancestry though. Most Greek islands were part of the Roman and later the Byzantine empire throughout most of their history. And then came the Knights of the Order of St.John, the Venetians etc.

That's too much for me to consider it a simple coincidence.

Sikeliot
04-29-2016, 08:40 PM
Venetians are not the only possible source of Italian ancestry though. Most Greek islands were part of the Roman and later the Byzantine empire throughout most of their history. And then came the Knights of the Order of St.John, the Venetians etc.

That's too much for me to consider it a simple coincidence.


Well my guess is most of it is not Venetian, or the French/German would be higher than it is.

You mentioned Cretan outliers on 23andme, can you show me their results?

sciencediver
04-29-2016, 08:42 PM
Well my guess is most of it is not Venetian, or the French/German would be higher than it is.

You mentioned Cretan outliers on 23andme, can you show me their results?

You have posted Cretans who score high Balkan and low Italian in some of your threads, that's what I meant by outliers.

Edit:Just found one from Dienekes blog comments section:


My father has a Greek from Crete as a Relative, and his ancestry painting shows up as:
99.7% Balkan
0.2% Eastern European
0.1% Nonspecific European

Sikeliot
04-29-2016, 09:02 PM
You have posted Cretans who score high Balkan and low Italian in some of your threads, that's what I meant by outliers.

Edit:Just found one from Dienekes blog comments section:


This may have been before the update.

sciencediver
04-29-2016, 09:25 PM
This may have been before the update.

I don't think the said updates had anything to do with the Balkan and Italian clusters.

And I just don't understand why and how you rule out the possibility of recent Italic ancestry(or at least dating from the Byzantine era).

Anyways, what about the Bulgarians getting Italian , like this one:

https://tellthejourney.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/ancestrycomp.jpg

In my opinion it's not very likely that the above person is 13% Greek islander or Anatolian Greek. Nor is he more West-Asian shifted than an Albanian who would get 100% Balkan.

vettor
04-29-2016, 09:40 PM
I don't think the said updates had anything to do with the Balkan and Italian clusters.

And I just don't understand why and how you rule out the possibility of recent Italic ancestry(or at least dating from the Byzantine era).

Anyways, what about the Bulgarians getting Italian , like this one:

https://tellthejourney.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/ancestrycomp.jpg

In my opinion it's not very likely that the above person is 13% Greek islander or Anatolian Greek. Nor is he more West-Asian shifted than an Albanian who would get 100% Balkan.

The only bulgarians matched with Italian came from Laz paper in which he matched North-italian ( Bergamo ) with South-french and Bulgarian...........other Italians i.e south and central to my knowledge do not get bulgarian,...........but central and North also do get some Romanian

vettor
04-29-2016, 09:43 PM
Venetians are not the only possible source of Italian ancestry though. Most Greek islands were part of the Roman and later the Byzantine empire throughout most of their history. And then came the Knights of the Order of St.John, the Venetians etc.

That's too much for me to consider it a simple coincidence.

For a recent source of less than 500 years they are for older source one needs to include Pisans, Genoese and Tuscans ...............south italians had no merchant/trade system of any note that went into the East-Med.
The only traffic between south-italian and greek was mostly one way...........greece to south-italy

vettor
04-29-2016, 09:49 PM
If Greek islanders got their Italian score from Venetians there would also be French/German appearing too, as Venetians are far from only scoring "Italian", they're basically Austrian genetically.

correct.............which is why 23andme has noted markers in south Italy which where once from ancient southern Greeks............over time these ancient Greeks did not move in Italy and hence became Italians. 23andme just matches these ancient greek markers in italy with cretan markers today and states they are Italian because the ancient Greeks in Italy are Italian now.

Sikeliot
04-29-2016, 09:56 PM
correct.............which is why 23andme has noted markers in south Italy which where once from ancient southern Greeks............over time these ancient Greeks did not move in Italy and hence became Italians. 23andme just matches these ancient greek markers in italy with cretan markers today and states they are Italian because the ancient Greeks in Italy are Italian now.

Well the Greek genes in southern Italy come up "Balkan" not Italian. And the amounts vary depending on where in Italy you are. You want to know how much Greek DNA from the mainland a given Sicilian has? Look to their Balkan score, and that is how much. The "Italian" score has nothing to do with ancient Greeks, it is a pre-Greek component that exists in Greece also because there were pre-Greek people living there like Pelasgians and Minoans.

It is possible that the Italian score is real for many people BUT when it is found in everyone from North Africans to Armenians to Bulgarians, it becomes unlikely to me that all of these people have recent Italian DNA.

Maybe in the case of Greeks I can believe it is recent. But what we see is, Greeks score more Italian than Italians score Balkan. So it is false that there was more migration from Greece into Italy than the reverse.

Larth
04-30-2016, 12:06 AM
Maybe in the case of Greeks I can believe it is recent. But what we see is, Greeks score more Italian than Italians score Balkan. So it is false that there was more migration from Greece into Italy than the reverse.

Italy has a population 6 times larger than Greece. If you include also the diaspora in the rest of the world, according to wiki Italians are 140 milion (60 + 80), Greeks are 14/17 milion. Of course, not all of them are fully Italian or fully Greek.

Morges
04-30-2016, 09:53 AM
I doubt 23andme has the ability to say who is ancient Greek or who isn't, we haven't even the aDNA of ancient Greece, both Balkan and Italian seem broad components.

Sikeliot
04-30-2016, 03:54 PM
I doubt 23andme has the ability to say who is ancient Greek or who isn't, we haven't even the aDNA of ancient Greece, both Balkan and Italian seem broad components.

Well since it is the Italian component being scored by people far and wide and not the Balkan one, that should be a hint.

Thunor
05-01-2016, 09:29 AM
Campania:

Naples

http://i.imgur.com/j30dt9A.jpg

Salerno

http://i.imgur.com/zQCYcNK.jpg

Asimakidis
05-01-2016, 12:06 PM
@Morges

Hi!
I think I ran out of space so some pictures I uploaded had to go. I can summarize them in a bigger pic. I only know what my older relatives have told me and they couldn't possibly know what happened thousands of years ago. My personal belief is that like all invaders/colonizers there has to be some evidence of their settling there, but of course there has been an assimilation of nearby people due to Hellenisation during ancient times and during the Eastern Roman Empire etc. I was wondering like must in this thread, where the Italian component is from in Pontic Greeks and if that marker is indeed ancient or not. I will upload the picture soon.

Asimakidis
05-01-2016, 01:15 PM
Delete.

Morges
05-02-2016, 10:33 AM
@Morges

Hi!
I think I ran out of space so some pictures I uploaded had to go. I can summarize them in a bigger pic. I only know what my older relatives have told me and they couldn't possibly know what happened thousands of years ago. My personal belief is that like all invaders/colonizers there has to be some evidence of their settling there, but of course there has been an assimilation of nearby people due to Hellenisation during ancient times and during the Eastern Roman Empire etc. I was wondering like must in this thread, where the Italian component is from in Pontic Greeks and if that marker is indeed ancient or not. I will upload the picture soon.

Thank you!Do you know some Anatolian Greeks GEDmatch results?do the Pontians are really close to Armenians in Oracle?

Sikeliot
05-04-2016, 05:13 AM
Here is someone of mixed southern Italian ancestry, from Calabria, Lucania, and Campania.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2rzywif.jpg

Dimanto
11-03-2016, 04:42 PM
Naples/Caserta:

EUGENES K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.85
2 West_Med 22.63
3 North_Atlantic 16.56
4 West_Asian 13.35
5 Baltic 9.07
6 Red_Sea 6.14
7 Northeast_African 0.21
8 Oceanian 0.14
9 South_Asian 0.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_Sicilian 2.62
2 South_Italian 3.46
3 Central_Greek 3.5
4 Ashkenazi 5.75
5 West_Sicilian 5.78
6 Italian_Abruzzo 6.8
7 Italian_Jewish 8.64
8 Algerian_Jewish 8.66
9 Sephardic_Jewish 8.75
10 Greek_Thessaly 9.39
11 Tuscan 11.98
12 Tunisian_Jewish 12.72
13 Libyan_Jewish 13.43
14 Cyprian 15.12
15 Bulgarian 18.24
16 North_Italian 18.36
17 Lebanese_Muslim 19.02
18 Syrian 20.1
19 Romanian 20.37
20 Turkish 21.03

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 73.7% Central_Greek + 26.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 1.76
2 73.9% Central_Greek + 26.1% Italian_Jewish @ 1.83
3 66.5% East_Sicilian + 33.5% South_Italian @ 2.26
4 76% Central_Greek + 24% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.27
5 86.6% East_Sicilian + 13.4% Italian_Jewish @ 2.28
6 82.9% Central_Greek + 17.1% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.36
7 54.9% Cyprian + 45.1% North_Italian @ 2.36
8 88.5% East_Sicilian + 11.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.38
9 83.9% Central_Greek + 16.1% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.42
10 56% Tuscan + 44% Cyprian @ 2.43
11 78.7% South_Italian + 21.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.44
12 97.1% East_Sicilian + 2.9% Sardinian @ 2.45
13 90.4% East_Sicilian + 9.6% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.46
14 86.7% East_Sicilian + 13.3% Ashkenazi @ 2.49
15 95.1% South_Italian + 4.9% Belorussian @ 2.5
16 95.1% East_Sicilian + 4.9% Cyprian @ 2.5
17 95.1% South_Italian + 4.9% Estonian_Polish @ 2.5
18 95.6% South_Italian + 4.4% Lithuanian @ 2.52
19 50.6% South_Italian + 49.4% Central_Greek @ 2.53
20 95.1% South_Italian + 4.9% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.54[SPOILER/]


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 34.98
2 Atlantic_Med 27.16
3 North_European 15.27
4 Southwest_Asian 12.2
5 Gedrosia 5.29
6 Northwest_African 5.1

[SPOILER]Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 4.54
2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 5.01
3 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 5.19
4 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 5.36
5 Greek (Dodecad) 7.09
6 C_Italian (Dodecad) 8.84
7 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 9.74
8 O_Italian (Dodecad) 11.69
9 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 11.91
10 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.06
11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.14
12 Cypriots (Behar) 18.24
13 Turkish (Dodecad) 20.02
14 N_Italian (Dodecad) 20.02
15 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 20.04
16 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 20.35
17 North_Italian (HGDP) 21.31
18 Romanians (Behar) 21.57
19 Lebanese (Behar) 22.31
20 Turks (Behar) 22.54

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 69.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 30.8% Romanians (Behar) @ 1.89
2 68% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 32% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.96
3 67.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 32.3% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 2.03
4 79.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20.9% Hungarians (Behar) @ 2.03
5 63.5% Greek (Dodecad) + 36.5% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 2.28
6 93.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 6.8% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.42
7 90.9% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 9.1% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.5
8 93.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 6.4% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.51
9 93.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 6.5% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.57
10 84.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 15.8% Polish (Dodecad) @ 2.59
11 91.1% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 8.9% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.59
12 91.1% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 8.9% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.59
13 90.7% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 9.3% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.59
14 94.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 5.8% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 2.6
15 90.6% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 9.4% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.6
16 90.3% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 9.7% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.61
17 90.8% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 9.2% British (Dodecad) @ 2.62
18 91.2% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 8.8% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.62
19 94.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 5.5% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 2.62
20 94.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 5.4% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.62

Dibran
02-14-2017, 02:17 PM
Islanders from Greece are indeed more similar to Southern Italians because they have more Neolithic, more Caucasus and less Steppe-derived ancestry.Besides that's the main reason someone from Dodecanese would get Sicilians and Maltese as first pop on Oracle.

That being said , 23andme is different from Gedmatch calculators because it uses sets of SNPs instead of single SNPs to determine ancestry, so the probability of ancient overlap decreases quite a bit compared to Gedmatch.According to their own website, the precision of their system when it comes to DNA pieces categorized as ''Italian'' is 88% , which means that 88% of the time it is actual Italian ancestry.

And I know I've already said it twice but in this case one can simply not neglect the fact that more than 70% of Greek islanders get Italy in their top countries of ancestry, ie they share IBD segments with people from Italy .

Maybe someone should directly mail 23andme about this , it's the best way to know for sure.

So, is it common for an Albanian to plot closer to Tuscan than some Albanians?(depending on the test). Also me and my father plot closely to northern Greeks and Thessalian Greeks(my father specifically).

My moms side through her father have Arvanite ancestry so it makes sense given genetic drift. However my father is a northern Gheg and he plots closer to Northern Greeks.

We are R-M417. My father typically looks like Jim Belushi in classification which is more common in the south and Greece than it is in the northern Ghegs. So I'm curious as to know the ancestry.

Also on 23andme most of our relatives were Greek.

S.P.Q.R Italia
03-10-2017, 09:38 PM
hi. im new here :). 1 thing i've never understood. how can so much campanians be olive skinned ? i mean, south italy mainland wasn't ruled by arabs as sicily. many sicilians have arab blood (not all of course), but why do also neapolitans have the facial feature as an middle eastern ?? my father comes from naples btw and he only has dark hair but white skin. his whole family also... but why is it like that in naples ?

Tz85
03-11-2017, 12:53 AM
hi. im new here :). 1 thing i've never understood. how can so much campanians be olive skinned ? i mean, south italy mainland wasn't ruled by arabs as sicily. many sicilians have arab blood (not all of course), but why do also neapolitans have the facial feature as an middle eastern ?? my father comes from naples btw and he only has dark hair but white skin. his whole family also... but why is it like that in naples ?

My moms side of the family, from Abruzzo, and Calabria were dark, especially the men.

fished
03-11-2017, 01:28 AM
My moms side of the family, from Abruzzo, and Calabria were dark, especially the men.

I have two uncles and a cousin who are naturally just about as dark as Europeans get, on the border of "olive" and "light brown". My mother, their sister/aunt, on the other hand, is light and very freckly (although very dark-haired, as am I).

It doesn't necessarily have to do with "Middle Eastern" features per se, and certainly not with "Arab" features in particular. Sardinians, for instance, are probably among the most universally dark-haired and olive-skinned peoples in Europe, despite not having any recent Middle Eastern ancestry. Olive skin is simply more advantageous in a Mediterranean climate than skin that burns easily.

Pratt
03-14-2017, 02:33 AM
"Italian" on here is Tuscan and Central Italian mostly, plus some southern Italians in the reference sample. What this shows then is that southern Italians are like their central Italian neighbors, with a sizable West Asian element. When I post Aegean island Greeks, you'll see they score Italian as well.

Nope, Italian on here is more Abruzzo and Molise.

Dion84
08-17-2017, 01:44 PM
Feel like I should contribute - Greek here

3 grandparents from Kefalonia (island in Ionian Sea), One from Andros/Patras (Cyclades / Western Mainland). Going to test my father, I suspect he will have a higher Italian/lower Balkan score than me.

Speculative:
European - 97.6%
-Southern European: 95.9%
---Italian: 44.5%
---Balkan: 35.1%
---Broadly southern European: 16.4%
-Broadly Northwestern European: 0.3%
-Ashkenazi Jewish: 0.2%
-Broadly European: 1.2%

Middle Eastern & North African: 2.3%
-Middle Eastern: 2.3%

Unassigned: 0.1%

Dimanto
08-17-2017, 03:11 PM
hi. im new here :). 1 thing i've never understood. how can so much campanians be olive skinned ? i mean, south italy mainland wasn't ruled by arabs as sicily. many sicilians have arab blood (not all of course), but why do also neapolitans have the facial feature as an middle eastern ?? my father comes from naples btw and he only has dark hair but white skin. his whole family also... but why is it like that in naples ?

This is how Neapolitan look like mostly.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fitn3nxS4qc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvCQPDbGvYQ