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Dorkymon
02-29-2016, 09:31 PM
This thread will act as a depository of studies and opinions on the origin and spread of Romanians.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Evolution_of_the_Eastern_Romance_languages_and_of_ the_Wallachian_territories_from_6th_century_to_the _16th_century_AD.jpg

ThirdTerm
03-01-2016, 09:56 PM
Haplogroups I-M423 and R-M17* were found in relatively high frequencies in Moldavians and their closest geographic neighbors, eastern Romanians and Ukrainians. In order to explore the genetic similarities of the I-M423 and R-M17* Moldavian chromosomes with those from Romanian and Ukrainian populations, median-joining networks based on 15 and 17 STRs haplotypes were generated on the background of haplogroups I-M423 and R-M17*, respectively (Figure 4). In both networks the Ukrainian and Romanian Y-STR haplotypes appeared to cluster within the respective populations. For haplogroup I-M423, Moldavian chromosomes share equal number of haplotypes with both Romanian and Ukrainian samples. In the case of R-M17*, the reduced median network of the Y-STR haplotypes indicated a closer relationship of the Moldavian Y-STR haplotypes with Ukrainian Y-STR haplotypes than with Romanian Y-STR haplotypes. Specifically, of four haplotypes shared by Moldvians with other populations three Moldavian haplotypes were found to be shared with Ukrainian haplotypes and only one haplotype was shared between Moldavians and Romanians. Pairwise RST comparisons for Y-STR haplotypes within haplogroup R-M17* further indicate that the Moldavian R-M17* chromosomes are closer related to the Ukrainian R-M17* chromosomes (RST = 0.02709; P = 0.14108) than to those of Romanians (RST = 0.20157; P = 0.0015 adjusted for multiple testing). It should be noted, however, that the total number of individuals from each population used in these analyses is small. Therefore, further study will be needed to clarify in detail the relationship of the R-M17* chromosomes in Moldavians, Romanians and Ukrainians.

In contrast to Romanians and most other Balkan populations, Moldavians show a clear genetic similarity to western and eastern Slavs. This is strongly implied by haplogroup R-M17, which dominates the paternal lineages of the Slavs and is broadly represented in Moldavians. Stefan et al. [18] have already noticed the increased presence of R-M17 chromosomes in Moldavians and explained it as a trait inherited from ancient (prehistoric) population of the North Pontic Steppe. However, genetic continuity in this scenario is not supported by archaeological and historical records, which suggest repeated dramatic demographic changes in Moldova’s population during the 4th –14th centuries AD. Recent admixture with Slavic neighbors appears to be a more parsimonious explanation for the elevated R-M17 frequency in Moldavians. The noteworthy domination of R-M17 chromosomes in Moldavians compared to Romanians is due to the R-M458 subclade. Haplogroup R-M458 likely has its roots in western/northern Poland, where it has its greatest modern concentration and microsatellite diversity [49]. Given the geographical proximity of Moldova to the Polish and other Slavic population groups and historically attested interactions between Moldavians and Slavs [10], [12], [13], [14], it is reasonable to assume that an influx of Slavs helped elevate the frequency of R-M17 chromosomes among Moldavians to underscore the Moldavian-Romanian differentiation. Furthermore, Romanians and Moldavians also display differences in the structure of R-M17* STR haplotypes. Although our network analysis (Figure 4) primarily shows homogeneity of the diversity of R-M17 haplotypes, Moldavian R-M17 chromosomes align closer with Ukrainian (Slavic) chromosomes than with Romanian ones, further supporting the contribution from Slavic neighbors to the Moldavian paternal gene pool.

Despite repeated invasions by nomads from Asian heartlands, only two (N-P43 and Q-M242) out of 125 Moldavian Y chromosomes studied here belonged to haplogroups of apparently northern/central Asian origins. These results are in good agreement with earlier studies on Y-chromosome variation in eastern and central Europe, asserting a minimal impact of gene flow from Siberia/central Asia [25], [41], [50], [51].

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0053731


Haplogroup I-M423 can be found with the highest frequency (40.7%), which shows that the Romanians mostly descended from European hunter-gatherers, followed by R-M17 or R1a (16.7%), the paternal lineage of the Slavs, which can be explained by Romania's geographical proximity to the Slavic heartland. A minimal impact of gene flow from Siberia was observed (Y-DNA haplogroups Q, N) and another East Asian specific lineage, C5c1, was also detected in some European populations such as Poles, Belorussians, and Romanians (Perkova et al. 2012).



We have long known that mtDNA haplogroup U (especially U5) was predominant in European hunter-gatherers. We now have a substantial set of ancient Y-DNA from early European hunter-gathers that establishes that Y-DNA haplogroup I (particularly I2) was predominant in those same European hunter-gatherers. Y-DNA haplogroup I accounts for a little less than 20% of Europeans with a much higher percentage of Scandinavians (among the last population of Europe to adopt farming) and in the Balkans. I1 which is not present in the ancient samples currently more common than I2. I1 appears to have expanded much later, perhaps around the time of the Nordic Bronze Age or maybe even a later phase of the Nordic Bronze Age. Thus, less than 10% of European men are in the I2 Y-DNA clade. Its mtDNA counterpart, mtDNA haplogroup U, is found in about 11% of Europeans (the non-U5 clades are mostly outside of Europe or rare). These estimates aren't perfect since some clades of each haplogroup may have been late arrivals, and there may be other haplogroups in ancient DNA of that period which has not yet been discovered.
http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com/2013/12/y-dna-haplogroup-i-predominant-in.html

Dorkymon
03-01-2016, 10:32 PM
I've already posted this research in another thread and I'm bringing it here for convenience's sake. It is free of charge to read and download from here:

Varzari, Alexander (2006): Population History of the Dniester-Carpathians: evidence from Alu insertion and Y-chromosome polymorphisms. Dissertation, LMU München: Faculty of Biology (https://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/5868/)


It is known that the lands to the south and to the east of the Carpathians were poorly populated in the 11th – 13th centuries AD due to devastating raids by the Turkic nomads from the North Pontic steppes (Fedorov 1999).

From the 13th century the old-Romanic population (Volokhs, another word for Vlachs), the direct ancestors of the contemporary Moldavians and the Romanians, penetrated there from the adjacent territories of Southeast Europe. Simultaneously or a little later the Slavs settled down predominantly in the Dniester valley.

A high share of the Anatolian/southern Balkan stratum in the male pool of the southern Romanians and as a consequence their close genetic affinity with the autochthonous Balkan populations testify to a significant gene flow from the southern/central Balkans and thus support the migration concept of the origin of the Romanians (for review see Fedorov 1999).

A considerable prevalence of the western Balkan component over the Anatolian one and a moderate share of the eastern European component in the pool of the eastern Romanians and the northern Moldavians may be attributable to the peopling of the eastern Transcarpathians from Transylvania and in this way is more consistent with the theory of the autochthonous (within the Carpathian Basin) development of the Romanians and the Moldavians. As we see, no theory (the migration one or that of the autochthonous development) explains completely the observed variability of the Y-chromosome in the gene pool of the Romanians and the Moldavians, but it does not confront with the observed variability either. The results of the study of the Y-chromosome polymorphism testify to the mixed origin of the male pool of the East Romanic population.

It seems that probably the East Romanic expansion came from two distinct areas in the Medieval Ages. At the same time the Balkan Volokhs (the old-Romanian community) preferred to settle down on the lands, which were in close vicinity of the Balkans to the South of the Carpathians, whereas the Carpathian Volokhs settled down in the eastern Transcarpathians.

Dorkymon
03-01-2016, 10:54 PM
“Vlach,: “Valach,” “Volach,” “Vlakh” and other variations of the term date back in time nearly 2,000 years and refer to a variety of “Latinized” people whose origin is ultimately the Roman Empire (Magocsi 1993). In archaic Czech, for example, “Vlassko” means Italy, and “Valach” refers to “Italian” (Radio Prague 1999). Today, only isolated groups of peoples in the Balkans (Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria) are referred to as Vlachs and these people speak Aromanian (e.g., Wace & Thomson 1914, Winnifrith 1987, Caragui 1999). The Romanian and Moldavians, who speak another language derived from Latin, Daco-Romanian, represent the largest concentration of Latinized people of southeastern Europe. Historically, Romanians and Moldavians were known as Vlachs. The Romanian province of Walachia was named for the Valachs and served as their traditional homeland. Other groups of Vlachs have been assimilated into the local populations.

On the problems that jeopardize the Vlach research. First, there is little written history about the Vlachs. Second. On lifestyle Vlachs were largely nomadic shepherds who lived in remote mountainous locales and were known to travel great distances. In fact, Vlachs are tied into the difficult mosaic of Balkans History. Fourth, Vlachs were famous (and still are) for their ability to assimilate into which ever culture they happened to find themselves (Balamaci 1995). For Example. Vlachs who migrated into Bosnia readily dropped Christianity in favor of the local Islam, and the Vlachs who migrated into the Habsburg Empire were “Slavicized” in both religion (Orthodox to Roman Catholic) and language (Winnifrith 1987). Fifth, the term “Vlach” has historically been loosely used by others and oftentimes referred to any outsiders who were shepherds.

The maximum extent of the roman Empire in southeastern Europe occurred after 106 AD when conquest of the Dacian people extended the empire from modern Greece to Romania. By all accounts, the Latinized people of the Roman Empire represented both a variety of indigenous people as well as colonists who came into the region (e.g. Magocsi 1993). Under barbarian pressure, the Roman Legions retreated from Dacia (modern Romania) in 217. According to at least Romanian historians, Roman colonists and the Latinized Dacians retreated into the Carpathian Mountains of Transylvania after the Roman Legions withdrew from the area. This view is supported to the extent that archeological evidence does indicate the presence of Latin-speaking people in Transylvania by at least the 8th Century (Carragie 1999).

By the late 4th Century, the Roman Empire was plagued by internal problems and, in southeastern Europe. By the incursion of the Germanic tribes. By the 7th and 8thCenturies, the Roman Empire existed only south of the Danube River in the form of the Byzantine Empire with its capitol at Constantinople (Fig.3). In this ethnically diverse closing area of the Roman Empire, Vlachs were recognized as those who spoke Latin, the official language of the Byzantine Empire until the 6th Century when Greek came to dominate (Balamaci 1995). These original Vlachs probably consisted of a variety of ethnic groups, but who shared the commonality of having been assimilated in language and culture into the Roman Empire. The remainder of Central and Eastern Europe north of the Danube River was occupied by shifting groups of (1) Slavs, who immigrated into the region during the first few centuries of the millennium from the northwestern Ukraine, (2) Germanic tribes (e.g., Goths, Vandals, Sueves), (3) Asiatic groups (e.g., Alans, Huns, Avars), and (4) the Turkic Bulgars who migrated into area in 679 (Magocsi 1993).

http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/texasczech/images/Valach%20Graphics%203.jpg

Source (http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/texasczech/Valachs/Who%20are%20the%20Valachs.htm)

Dorkymon
03-01-2016, 11:02 PM
The only organised state of Greek Vlachs, Vlachia, which emerged during a weakened Byzantine Empire, year 1265. Unlike in the Wallachia from North of the Danube, Vlachs from Greece did not succeed to impose their own state and as a result have been on an assimilation spree into Greek culture since then. This phenomena has likely happened all over the Balkans, at least in the regions that have records of historic Vlach communities that have lived/are living there.


The Vlachs of Thessaly first appear in Byzantine sources in the 11th century, in the Strategikon of Kekaumenos and Anna Komnene's Alexiad).[1] In the 12th century, the Jewish traveller Benjamin of Tudela records the existence of the district of "Vlachia" near Halmyros in eastern Thessaly, while the Byzantine historian Niketas Choniates places "Great Vlachia" near Meteora. The term is also used by the 13th-century scholar George Pachymeres, and it appears as a distinct administrative unit in 1276, when the pinkernes Raoul Komnenos was its governor (kephale). Thessalian Vlachia was apparently also known as "Vlachia in Hellas".[2]

Medieval sources of the period also speak of an "Upper Vlachia" in Epirus, and a "Little Vlachia" in Aetolia-Acarnania, but "Great Vlachia" is no longer mentioned after the late 13th century, and disappears until the 15th century, when the term was applied to Wallachia proper, north of the Danube.[2]

Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/ShepherdByzempire1265.jpg

Dorkymon
03-01-2016, 11:11 PM
A map which depicts the Carpathian Basin on the eve of the Hungarian Conquest of Europe, taking into account the narration of the Gesta Hungarorum.


Gesta Hungarorum, or The Deeds of the Hungarians, is the first extant Hungarian chronicle. It was written by an unidentified author who has traditionally been called Anonymus in scholarly works. According to most historians, the work was completed between around 1200 and 1230. The Gesta exists in a sole manuscript from the second part of the 13th century, which was for centuries held in Vienna. It is part of the collection of Széchényi National Library in Budapest.

As it can be clearly observed, Vlachs were already present on the high ground of Transylvania, coexisting alongside Slavs, and the fertile plains of Wallachia, when the various Hungarian tribes reached the Carpathian basin. In addition to that, they have been confirmed to live South of the Danube.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Gesta_hungarorum_map.jpg/1280px-Gesta_hungarorum_map.jpg

Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hungarorum)

Dorkymon
03-01-2016, 11:21 PM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Gesta_Hungarorum_Anonymous.jpg/800px-Gesta_Hungarorum_Anonymous.jpg

Gelou (Romanian: Gelu; Hungarian: Gyalu) was the Vlach ruler of Transylvania at the time of the Hungarian conquest of the Carpathian Basin around 900 AD, according to the Gesta Hungarorum. Although the Gesta Hungarorum, which was written after 1150, does not indicate the enemies of the conquering Hungarians (Magyars) known from earlier annals and chronicles, it refers to local rulers—including Gelou—who are not mentioned in other primary sources. Consequently, historians debate whether Gelou was a historical person or an imaginary figure created by the unidentified author of the Gesta Hungarorum. In Romanian historiography, Gelou is one of three early-10th-century Romanian dukes with lands in the intra-Carpathian region of present-day Romania.

The Gesta Hungarorum describes pre-conquest Transylvania as a country rich in salt and gold, which was raided by Turkic peoples—"Cumans and Pechenegs"—before the arrival of the Magyars. Archaeological research indicates that a people who cremated their dead inhabited the regions of the Transylvanian salt mines from the seventh to the ninth centuries. Although excavated weapons suggest a military elite, none of the early-medieval Transylvanian fortresses uncovered can be reliably dated before the 10th century. The Gesta Hungarorum states that Gelou's duchy was inhabited by Vlachs and Slavs; most toponyms recorded by the chronicler in connection with Gelou's duchy are of Magyar origin. According to the Gesta Hungarorum, Tétény (or Tuhutum), who was one of seven Magyar chieftains, defeated Gelou's army at the Mezeş Gates and Gelou was killed at the Căpuș River as he fled towards his unnamed fortress. Gelou's subjects then yielded to Tuhutum without further resistance.

According to Anonymus, "Slavs, Bulgarians, Vlachs, and the shepherds of the Romans"[52] inhabited the Carpathian Basin when the Magyars invaded the territory.[24] The chronicler describes Transylvania (terra ultrasilvana, "the land beyond the woods") as a rich country with salt mines and gold-yielding rivers, inhabited by "Vlachs and Slavs"[53] when the Magyars arrived,[54][55] and records the names of five Transylvanian rivers or mountain passes.[56] Most—Almaş, Aștileu, Căpuş and Mezeş—are of Hungarian origin.[56] In the Gesta Hungarorum Gelou is described as "a certain Vlach"[57] and "prince of the Vlachs",[58] indicating that the Vlachs were considered the dominant Transylvanian population.[55][59]

According to Anonymus, Gelou "was not steadfast and did not have around him good warriors".[53][60] The Vlachs and Slavs of Transylvania were "the basest of the whole world" because "they had nothing else for arms than bows and arrows";[53][55] Transylvanian weakness was the result of frequent raids by "the Cumans and Pechenegs".[53][61] According to Ioan Aurel Pop, Anonymus' description of Gelou's subjects indicates a sedentary people called to arms.[61]


Conquest of Transylvania

Anonymus and the late 13th-century Simon of Kéza wrote that the Magyars bypassed Transylvania after crossing the northern Carpathians.[65][66] However, 14th-century Hungarian chronicles preserve a tradition contradicting these narratives.[65][67][68] In the Illuminated Chronicle, the Magyars first arrived in Transylvania (Erdelw) with their conquest,[69] "remain[ing] quietly in Erdelw and rest[ing] their herds"[70] before moving further west.[69]

The Gesta Hungarorum recounts a meeting of three Hungarian chieftains—Teteny (or Tuhutum), Szabolcs and Tas—after their victory over Menumorut, who is described as lord of Bihor.[71] They decided that "the border of the realm of Prince Árpád" (the head of the Magyars) "should be at the Mezeş Gates",[72] forcing the local population to build a stone-and-timber enclosure at the new border.[71] Tétény soon sent a spy, "father Agmánd Apafarkas",[53] to reconnoitre the land east of the Mezeş Gates.[60] The spy informed him of Transylvania's wealth and its ruler's weakness.[60][73] Before the invasion, Tétény "sent his envoys"[58] to Árpád for permission.[74][73] With Árpád's consent, Tétény hurried to the Mezeş Gates;[75] according to Madgearu, his attack was "clearly targeted toward the salt mine district" of Transylvania.[76]

Gelou "gathered his army and rode speedily"[58] to the border to stop the invaders.[74] Tétény crossed the forest in one day, forcing Gelou to retreat to the Almaş River[74][77] and fight the Magyars there.[74] The next day, Tétény divided his army and "sent one part a little way upstream"[78] to cross the Almaş and surprise Gelou.[74] Gelou was defeated, with many of his men killed or captured.[74] Although he fled from the battlefield towards "his castle beside the Someş River", Tétény's soldiers chased and killed him on the banks of the Căpuș River,[77][74] near the place where the village Gilău (https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comuna_Gil%C4%83u,_Cluj) (which was first mentioned in the 13th century) is located.[79] When they heard about their lord's death the inhabitants of Transylvania conceded, acknowledging Tétény as their new lord.[74] They swore an oath of loyalty to him at a place later named Așchileu (in Hungarian, Eskellő, which derived from eskü, meaning "oath" in Hungarian, according to Anonymus).[74][77] Anonymus ends his account of the Hungarian conquest of Transylvania by saying that Tétény governed Transylvania "peacefully and happily from that day, but his posterity possessed it only up to the times of the holy King Stephen"[80] (who conquered the province around 1000).[73][74]

Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelou)

Dorkymon
03-01-2016, 11:24 PM
http://puu.sh/mPQt2/8691f79b8a.png

Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs)

Dorkymon
03-01-2016, 11:40 PM
Nota Bene before getting confused of the termination in the following research:

The Byzantine Empire was known to its inhabitants as the "Roman Empire", the "Empire of the Romans" (Latin: Imperium Romanum, Imperium Romanorum; Greek: Βασιλεία τῶν Ῥωμαίων Basileia tōn Rhōmaiōn, Ἀρχὴ τῶν Ῥωμαίων Archē tōn Rhōmaiōn), "Romania" (Latin: Romania; Greek: Ῥωμανία Rhōmania),[n 1] the "Roman Republic" (Latin: Res Publica Romana; Greek: Πολιτεία τῶν Ῥωμαίων Politeia tōn Rhōmaiōn), Graikia (Greek: Γραικία), and also as Rhōmais (Greek: Ῥωμαΐς).[13] The inhabitants called themselves Romaioi and Graikoi, and even as late as the 19th century Greeks typically referred to their modern language as Romaika and Graikika. Whenever the Popes or the rulers of the West made use of the name Roman to refer to the Eastern Roman Emperors, they usually preferred the term Imperator Romaniae (meaning Emperor of Romania) instead of Imperator Romanorum (meaning Emperor of the Romans), a title that they applied only to Charlemagne and his successors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

Dorkymon
03-01-2016, 11:42 PM
http://www.friesian.com/images/maps/balkan0.gif

Not only did the original Dacia drop out of history in 271, but the later Dacias did so also, after the Avars and Slavs breached the Danube frontier and poured into the Balkans in 602. Only the conversion of Bulgaria to Christianity in 879, with the introduction of the Cyrillic alphabet, returned the region to literacy. As it happens, only one other place in the Roman Empire dropped out of history in quite the same way. That was Britain. The withdrawl of Roman forces in 410 drops Britain into a void very similar to that of the Dacias, and for a while all that is apparent is the descent of sea-going Germans -- the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes. When literate culture returns, dramatically evident in the history of the English church written by the Venerable Bede in 731, we suddenly see the results. Roman Britain has disappeared from most of the island, with Romanized Celtic speakers pushed into Wales and Cornwall. The Cornish were under such pressure that many of them crossed over to Brittany. The Celtic speakers of Cornwall have today disappeared, but the Bretons are very much alive and aware of their past. Although the Angles and Saxons inherited the old Roman place names, and came to tell the King Arthur stories by which the conflicts of the 5th century were vaguely remembered, Saxon England owed little enough to the culture it had displaced.

Roman Britain survives in Wales and Brittany. Even pre-Roman culture survives in Spain, where the mountains in the North harbor the Basques, whose language has no obvious affinities to any other. This is revealing. The geography of England poses few obstacles to conquest, but both the Welsh and the Basques held out in mountains -- relatively modest mountains perhaps, no more than 3000 feet in Wales and not much more than 7500 feet on the south side of the Ebro valley in Spain (though over 11,000 feet in the nearby Pyrenees), but something that could impose significant costs to invaders -- in the Middle Ages, the Basque country was the basis of the long independent Kingdom of Navarre. Americans need only remember how the Appalachians, which don't get much over 6000 feet, originally hindered westward movement. The Transylvanian plateau, in comparison to these, provides a formidable redoubt. The Danube River itself tells the tale, since it must make a broad detour to the south, around the whole area. The southern branch of the Carpathians, the Transylvanian Alps, has peaks over 8000 feet high, and even the western side goes up to 6000 feet in the Bihor mountains. This makes it immediately obvious why nomads tended to pass around, like the Danube. Nomads like flat grasslands, which are present on the Hungarian plain and in the Danube Valley of Wallachia, but not in the mountains or up on the Transylvanian plateau. We should expect to find an autochthonous population in Daco-Romania just as much as in Wales or Navarre.

Consequently, it is no more difficult imagining the Dacians surviving than it is explaining the Welsh or the Basques. On the other hand, this makes it somewhat more difficult to explain why the original Dacian language would not have survived. The area of Daco-Romania was under Roman rule for a shorter time, about a century and a half, than Britain, about three and a half centuries, or than Spain, more like six and a half centuries. A Romance language did not take root in Britain, and even all the Romance dominance in Spain failed to entirely displace Basque. So why does the pre-Roman language not survive in modern Romania? The relatively brief Roman occupation hardly seems like the kind of thing that could have done so thorough a job, especially in the face of the organization and resistance that the Dacians originally offered. Nor was it Roman policy to deliberately stamp out local languages -- that was just a side effect of Roman colonization and the use of Latin as the administrative, literary, and, later, religious (i.e. Roman Catholic) language. The dominance of Romance speech in Daco-Romania thus might require some other impetus of Latinization.

We may find that by asking what happened to all the Latin speakers south of the Danube, in the later Dacian provinces and diocese. If we look there now, one thing we find is that there are still Romance speakers. In the bend of the Danube River, where it breaks through the mountain barrier at the Iron Gate, which corresonds to the north part of the Roman Province of Dacia Ripensis, there is a Daco-Romanian speaking area even today, as part of Serbia. These are people who need not have moved in 1700 years. But most of the area of the Roman Dacias is occupied by speakers of Serbian or Bulgarian. On the other hand, the Vlach languages to the south, as I understand it, do not betray the influence of Greek that they should, had they originated in Macedonia and Albania. And there is, of course, the pocket of Istro-Rumanian, which is all the way West in Istria, which was part of Austria until World War I. Since all the Romance languages of the Balkans appear to come from one proto-language -- Proto-Romanian -- the dispersed pockets, like Arumanian, in Albania and Epirus, and Istro-Rumanian, must have originated in the same area. That looks to be the Late Roman Dacias. The event to have have scattered the languages would have been the Avar/Slavic breakthrough in 602.

Some of the people stayed more or less put, like the Welsh, while others scattered in the face of the invaders, like the Bretons. Since there are no historical records of this, as there are none for the Slavic migration itself, we are left with nothing but the evidence of the results. From Istro-Rumanian, we know that some went West. From Megleno-Rumanian and Arumanian, we know that some went South. However, the most obvious thing for them to do would have been to go north-east right back into the original Dacia. This was now no worse than heading south or west, which offered no real refuge (Roman authority having collapsed so completely), and could easily have been considered better, since they likely would have known from rumor that the invaders had mostly passed around the highlands.

Hidden from history, like other Dark Age migrations, the Roman evacuees from Dacia could well have, in returning, provided the additional impetus of Latinization that erased the vestiges of the ancient Dacian language. Nor need this have been an all-at-once process. It looks like mediaeval Serbia started a bit west of the Moesia region, in modern Bosnia, and gradually moved east. In the meantime, the Roman Dacias, which included parts of modern Bulgaria, like the city of Sofia (Roman Serdica), could well have remained largely Vlach. This seems to be no less than what we see in the age of the Asens. As the second Bulgarian empire declined, however, the Serbs pushed to the east. This may have motivated continued Vlach exodus. The continued movement of peoples even in the modern period is a claim of the Serbs themselves, who say that Albanians moved into Kosovo after the Turkish conquest. This is very possible. It also makes possible the movement from the Roman Dacias.

If this view of events is correct, then both Romanian and Hungarian nationalists are, after a fashion, correct. There was continuous Daco-Romanian occupation of Transylvania, and there was migration from what had been Roman Moesia, south of the Danube. Not south by much, however. The areas are still contiguous today. This is worse for Hungarian claims than for Romanian. What continued migration explains is the purely Romance character of Daco-Romanian.

Source (http://www.friesian.com/decdenc2.htm)

Gravetto-Danubian
03-02-2016, 12:47 AM
One problem I find with the idea that Romance speakers survived "in the mountains as shepherds" is that this is based on later literary-Romanticized anecdotes (vigorously taken up by many scholars as "fact") but not supported by 5-7th century evidence. I.e if there were romance speakers in 6th century wallachia- they didn't live in forests and mountains as nomads, for no such people exist acc. to archaeology

vettor
03-02-2016, 06:49 AM
This thread will act as a depository of studies and opinions on the origin and spread of Romanians.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Evolution_of_the_Eastern_Romance_languages_and_of_ the_Wallachian_territories_from_6th_century_to_the _16th_century_AD.jpg

Carpi=Albainians ?............more than one person has made this comment that Albanians origins are in the Carpi tribe of the southern Carpathians mountains

Dorkymon
03-02-2016, 10:54 AM
One problem I find with the idea that Romance speakers survived "in the mountains as shepherds" is that this is based on later literary-Romanticized anecdotes (vigorously taken up by many scholars as "fact") but not supported by 5-7th century evidence. I.e if there were romance speakers in 6th century wallachia- they didn't live in forests and mountains as nomads, for no such people exist acc. to archaeology

It's based on Gesta Hungarorum, the medieval chronicle that explains the origin of Hungarians. If this source is not accurate then the whole chronicle about the origin of our neigbhours can be discarded.

During the late ninth century the Hungarians invaded the Pannonian basin, where the province of Pannonia was inhabited—according to the Gesta Hungarorum, written around 1200 by the anonymous chancellor of King Bela III of Hungary—by Slavs, Bulgars, Blacs, and pastores Romanorum, "shepherds of the Romans" (sclauij, Bulgarij et Blachij, ac pastores romanorum in the original).

If pastores Romanorum does not clearly hint at how Romanians from there called themselves then there is always Blacs. It seems to be a variation of Vlachs, taken from Slavs.

Nota bene: Romanians never called themselves Vlachs, that's a foreign name. The local name has always been român. What has later become the state of Wallachia, had the name of Țara Românească in Romanian. Țara = terra = land, român = Romanian (clearly deriving from roman), -ească = feminine variation of -escu = of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hungarorum


acc. to archaeology

I'll also cover the acrchaeology, in later posts though.

Dorkymon
03-02-2016, 11:00 AM
Carpi=Albainians ?............more than one person has made this comment that Albanians origins are in the Carpi tribe of the southern Carpathians mountains

Carpians are basically an offshoot of the Dacians/Thracians who haven't been latinised. Albanians have more ancestors than this, but one of them could be the Carpians.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Theoretical_map_of_Romanian_origins.png

Gravetto-Danubian
03-02-2016, 11:24 AM
It's based on Gesta Hungarorum, the medieval chronicle that explains the origin of Hungarians. If this source is not accurate then the whole chronicle about the origin of our neigbhours can be discarded.

During the late ninth century the Hungarians invaded the Pannonian basin, where the province of Pannonia was inhabited—according to the Gesta Hungarorum, written around 1200 by the anonymous chancellor of King Bela III of Hungary—by Slavs, Bulgars, Blacs, and pastores Romanorum, "shepherds of the Romans" (sclauij, Bulgarij et Blachij, ac pastores romanorum in the original).

If pastores Romanorum does not clearly hint at how Romanians from there called themselves then there is always Blacs. It seems to be a variation of Vlachs, taken from Slavs.

Nota bene: Romanians never called themselves Vlachs, that's a foreign name. The local name has always been român. What has later become the state of Wallachia, had the name of Țara Românească in Romanian. Țara = terra = land, român = Romanian (clearly deriving from roman), -ească = feminine variation of -escu = of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hungarorum

Yes I see, but the entire problem with the Chronicle is that it is written hundreds of years after the collapse of Roman influence north of the Danube, and even hundreds of years after the arrival of Goths, Huns and Slavs. So really, it is only accurate about events around time of its writing (minus the usual personal agendas of writers), not events from 500 AD.

So maybe some Romance speakers were pastoralists in Transylvania around the high Middle Ages, but it cannot be used to construct events from, say, 500 AD.


I'll also cover the acrchaeology, in later posts though.
Ok :)

Dorkymon
03-02-2016, 11:35 AM
Yes I see, but the entire problem with the Chronicle is that it is written hundreds of years after the collapse of Roman influence north of the Danube, and even hundreds of years after the arrival of Goths, Huns and Slavs. So really, it is only accurate about events around time of its writing (minus the usual personal agendas of writers), not events from 500 AD.

So, one cannot bypass hard evidence from archaeology in favour of a piece of writing 800 years later. And that evidence shows that the communities living in Wallachia, Transylvania and Moldavia practiced agriculture in plains and river valleys, not moved around with animals in forests and mountains.

The chronicle covers the events that are important to understanding the Hungarian settlement in Europe. It's timeframe ranges from the 9th to the 12th century. What can be extracted from this work is the written evidence that Romanians were residing alongside Slavs in central Transylvania, Wallachia and further South over the Danube. We can speculate whether Romanians settled gradually North of the Danube, originating from the romanised population in the South. Or if they were driven South of the Danube by the migrating waves of Avars and Slavs, while some of them managed to hold their ground in the Carpathians.

sciencediver
03-02-2016, 12:05 PM
Carpians are basically an offshoot of the Dacians/Thracians who haven't been latinised. Albanians have more ancestors than this, but one of them could be the Carpians.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Theoretical_map_of_Romanian_origins.png

Any idea why this map suggests Serbia was the Albanian homeland?

gravetti
03-02-2016, 12:08 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hungarorum

The latter source described the Slavs as the first settlers in the Carpathian Basin and mentioned that they were conquered by the "Volokhi" before the Hungarians arrived and expelled the Volokhi.[76][77] According to Györffy, Kristó and other historians, Anonymus misinterpreted his source when identifying the Volokhi with the Vlachs, because the who occupied Pannonia, but the Hungarians expelled them during the Conquest.[76][78] On the other hand, Spinei, Pop and other historians write that Russian Primary Chronicle confirms Anonymus's report of the Hungarians' fight against the Vlachs.[79][page needed][39][80] Madgearu, who does not associate the Volokhi with the Vlachs, emphasizes that Anonymous "had no interest to invent the presence of the [Vlachs] in Transylvania in the 10th century, because if [Vlachs] had indeed arrived there in the 12th century, his readers would not have believed this assertion".[81] Györffy says that the Vlachs, Cumans, Czechs and other peoples whose presence in the late-9th-century Carpathian Basin cannot be proven based on sources from the same period reflects the situation of the late 13th century.[82]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karluks

Blacs are not Vlachs.Blacs were a tribe of the Karluk Turkic tribal confederacy.And Volokhi were actually Franks.

Dorkymon
03-02-2016, 05:27 PM
Any idea why this map suggests Serbia was the Albanian homeland?

As far as I know, Albanians originate from various populations indigenous to the Balkans, so they probably moved a bit around the peninsula over time, until being pushed to the edge by the Slavs who moved into the region.

Dorkymon
03-02-2016, 05:31 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hungarorum

The latter source described the Slavs as the first settlers in the Carpathian Basin and mentioned that they were conquered by the "Volokhi" before the Hungarians arrived and expelled the Volokhi.[76][77] According to Györffy, Kristó and other historians, Anonymus misinterpreted his source when identifying the Volokhi with the Vlachs, because the who occupied Pannonia, but the Hungarians expelled them during the Conquest.[76][78] On the other hand, Spinei, Pop and other historians write that Russian Primary Chronicle confirms Anonymus's report of the Hungarians' fight against the Vlachs.[79][page needed][39][80] Madgearu, who does not associate the Volokhi with the Vlachs, emphasizes that Anonymous "had no interest to invent the presence of the [Vlachs] in Transylvania in the 10th century, because if [Vlachs] had indeed arrived there in the 12th century, his readers would not have believed this assertion".[81] Györffy says that the Vlachs, Cumans, Czechs and other peoples whose presence in the late-9th-century Carpathian Basin cannot be proven based on sources from the same period reflects the situation of the late 13th century.[82]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karluks

Blacs are not Vlachs.Blacs were a tribe of the Karluk Turkic tribal confederacy.And Volokhi were actually Franks.

http://puu.sh/nshil/2cc79b700b.png

I doubt Turks were identifying as "pastores romanorum", Roman sheperds, at that time (as written in Gesta Hungarorum). Blach/Vlach is simply the name attributed to the latinised Balkan population by the foreigners, most notably Slavs.

gravetti
03-02-2016, 09:58 PM
http://puu.sh/nshil/2cc79b700b.png

I doubt Turks were identifying as "pastores romanorum", Roman sheperds, at that time (as written in Gesta Hungarorum). Blach/Vlach is simply the name attributed to the latinised Balkan population by the foreigners, most notably Slavs.

... the Vlachs, Cumans, Czechs and other peoples whose presence in the late-9th-century Carpathian Basin cannot be proven based on sources from the same period reflects the situation of the late 13th century!!!


I doubt Turks were identifying as "pastores romanorum",

Me too.

Volat
03-03-2016, 12:40 AM
Dorkymon


How much evidence is there to support large migration from southern Balkans (Bulgaria) into Romania? If it was true then it'd explain genetic difference at autosomal DNA between Romanians and Moldovans (people of country of Moldova) with latter being notably more northern. On the other hand Romanians seem to plot closely to Bulgarians. Eurogenes K15 has samples for Romanian, Bulgarians and Moldavians.





http://s28.postimg.org/vb0nfpgil/ERS389796_K15_pca12.png

Dorkymon
03-03-2016, 12:52 AM
Dorkymon


How much evidence is there to support large migration from southern Balkans (Bulgaria) into Romania? If it was true then it'd explain genetic difference at autosomal DNA between Romanians and Moldovans (people of country of Moldova) with latter being notably more northern. On the other hand Romanians seem to plot closely to Bulgarians. Eurogenes K15 has samples for Romanian, Bulgarians and Moldavians.





http://s28.postimg.org/vb0nfpgil/ERS389796_K15_pca12.png

Romanians from Eurogenes K15 are mainly samples from Southern Romania, who are obviously Bulgarian like. PuntDNAL K12 is more accurate in this regard.

PuntDNAL K12

# Population Percent
1 European_HG 35.28
2 Anatolian_NF 34.79
3 Caucasus_HG 19.93
4 Near_East 4.83
5 Siberian 1.97
6 Beringian 0.98
7 East_Asian 0.98
8 Oceanian 0.87
9 Sub-Saharan 0.23
10 Amerindian 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanian 2.39
2 Croatian 4.51
3 Belgian 6.15
4 Dutch_South 6.9
5 Utahn_European 7.51
6 Hungarian 7.61
7 Bulgarian 7.69
8 German_South 7.75
9 French 8.25
10 English_South 9.2
11 Irish 10.43
12 Dutch_North 11.21
13 Czech 11.45
14 German_North 11.55
15 Scottish_West 12.44
16 Italian_Bergamo 12.9
17 Albanian 13
18 Norwegian 13.38
19 Spanish_Northeast 14.32
20 Spanish_Southwest 14.45

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 96.5% Romanian + 3.5% Altaian @ 1.03
2 97.5% Romanian + 2.5% Yakut @ 1.09
3 97% Romanian + 3% Tuvinian @ 1.1
4 97.2% Romanian + 2.8% Dolgan @ 1.11
5 95.8% Romanian + 4.2% Hazara @ 1.16

Eurogenes K15
# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 19.06
2 Baltic 18.89
3 Atlantic 13.92
4 Eastern_Euro 11.9
5 East_Med 11.88
6 West_Med 10.85
7 West_Asian 7.65
8 Siberian 1.94
9 Southeast_Asian 1.82
10 Red_Sea 1.43
11 South_Asian 0.41
12 Oceanian 0.25

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 5.36
2 Moldavian 5.72
3 Romanian 6.55
4 Hungarian 7.44
5 Croatian 7.79
6 Bulgarian 9.01
7 Austrian 9.67
8 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.37
9 East_German 12.61
10 South_Polish 13.25
11 Ukrainian 13.31
12 Greek_Thessaly 15.41
13 Polish 16.02
14 Ukrainian_Belgorod 16.66
15 Russian_Smolensk 16.67
16 Southwest_Russian 17.06
17 Greek 17.08
18 West_German 17.53
19 South_Dutch 17.92
20 Southwest_Finnish 18.04

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.8% Greek_Thessaly + 43.2% Estonian @ 2.72
2 61.6% Ukrainian + 38.4% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.98
3 66% Ukrainian + 34% South_Italian @ 3.01
4 62.6% Ukrainian + 37.4% Central_Greek @ 3.02
5 67.8% Bulgarian + 32.2% Finnish @ 3.07

Volat
03-03-2016, 01:09 AM
As far I know the same large sample for Romanians released to public is used in published studies and personal projects. Here's a published study by Yunusbaev et al https://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/1/359.full

PS Was there a migration from southern Balkans to Romania? It could happen given many Vlach shepherds were always moving in search of new pastures.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/29zwhn4.jpg

Volat
03-03-2016, 01:17 AM
Phylogenetic network from Standing at the Gateway to Europe - The Genetic Structure of Western Balkan Populations Based on Autosomal and Haploid Markers. Lejla Kovacevic et al. (2014).

http://postimg.org/image/gmy0tuwz3/full/


It appears most studies use the same Romanian sample. Either PuntDNAL has obtained a new sample or the results are skewed due to some counfounding factors.

Gravetto-Danubian
03-03-2016, 01:53 AM
Phylogenetic network from Standing at the Gateway to Europe - The Genetic Structure of Western Balkan Populations Based on Autosomal and Haploid Markers. Lejla Kovacevic et al. (2014).

http://postimg.org/image/gmy0tuwz3/full/


It appears most studies use the same Romanian sample. Either PuntDNAL has obtained a new sample or the results are skewed due to some counfounding factors.

And its also Y markers. The study of Underhill found more M458 in Moldavians, whilst it was not too common in Romanians.

On the other hand, there really isn't much evidence for migration of "Wallach" from the Balkans to Romania, apart from odd reports of Vlachs and Bulgarians 'fleeing north" during their frequent wars with Byzantium. In addition, there is good evidence for population-settlement continuity in wallachia and Moldavia.

Overall, we can definitely see close connections between Romanians and Serbs/ Bulgarians/ Macedonians. But what underlies this, and when, is more difficult to gauge. I have a hunch that the 'southernness' of Romanians might not stem from an 11th century AD migration north, but I won't say too much for now . .

Volat
03-03-2016, 02:36 AM
And its also Y markers. The study of Underhill found more M458 in Moldavians, whilst it was not too common in Romanians.

On the other hand, there really isn't much evidence for migration of "Wallach" from the Balkans to Romania, apart from odd reports of Vlachs and Bulgarians 'fleeing north" during their frequent wars with Byzantium. In addition, there is good evidence for population-settlement continuity in wallachia and Moldavia.

Overall, we can definitely see close connections between Romanians and Serbs/ Bulgarians/ Macedonians. But what underlies this, and when, is more difficult to gauge. I have a hunch that the 'southernness' of Romanians might not stem from an 11th century AD migration north, but I won't say too much for now . .

East Slavic tribes Tiverci and Ulichi lived in or around Moldova. Then continuous migration of Slavs into Moldova in the last 150 years. Religion was not an obstacle for intermarriages. That may explain Moldovan 'northernness' in relation to Romanians and the presence of M458 marker.

ThirdTerm
03-03-2016, 02:45 AM
A high share of the Anatolian/southern Balkan stratum in the male pool of the southern Romanians and as a consequence their close genetic affinity with the autochthonous Balkan populations testify to a significant gene flow from the southern/central Balkans and thus support the migration concept of the origin of the Romanians (for review see Fedorov 1999). A considerable prevalence of the western Balkan component over the Anatolian one and a moderate share of the eastern European component in the pool of the eastern Romanians and the northern Moldavians may be attributable to the peopling of the eastern Transcarpathians from Transylvania and in this way is more consistent with the theory of the autochthonous (within the Carpathian Basin) development of the Romanians and the Moldavians. As we see, no theory (the migration one or that of the autochthonous development) explains completely the observed variability of the Y-chromosome in the gene pool of the Romanians and the Moldavians, but it does not confront with the observed variability either. The results of the study of the Y-chromosome polymorphism testify to the mixed origin of the male pool of the East Romanic population. It seems that probably the East Romanic expansion came from two distinct areas in the Medieval Ages. At the same time the Balkan Volokhs (the old-Romanian community) preferred to settle down on the lands, which were in close vicinity of the Balkans to the South of the Carpathians, whereas the Carpathian Volokhs settled down in the eastern Transcarpathians. The gene pools of at least some Moldavian groups, except the Balkan-Carpathian components, also included a considerable eastern European component that seems to be attributable to the involvement of settlers of Slavic origin. The presence of multiple Slavic elements in the spoken language and folklore of the Moldavians supports the interpretation that Slavs left significant imprint on the genesis of the present-day paternal pool of the Moldavians.
https://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/5868/1/Varzari_Alexander.pdf


R1b3-M269 is the third common haplogroup of the Romanians (13%) and it is found at the highest frequency in the central Balkans, which points to a significant gene flow from the Balkans (Varzari ‎2006). The Romanians also share E3b1-M78 (7.4%) with the Balkan populations and the European distribution of E3b1-M78 centers in parts of the Balkans (up to 50%).

eastara
03-03-2016, 06:37 AM
And its also Y markers. The study of Underhill found more M458 in Moldavians, whilst it was not too common in Romanians.

On the other hand, there really isn't much evidence for migration of "Wallach" from the Balkans to Romania, apart from odd reports of Vlachs and Bulgarians 'fleeing north" during their frequent wars with Byzantium. In addition, there is good evidence for population-settlement continuity in wallachia and Moldavia.

Overall, we can definitely see close connections between Romanians and Serbs/ Bulgarians/ Macedonians. But what underlies this, and when, is more difficult to gauge. I have a hunch that the 'southernness' of Romanians might not stem from an 11th century AD migration north, but I won't say too much for now . .


The explanation is simple - the Vachs moving North absorbed what's left of the autochthonous population there. Their language prevailed the same way as Slavic prevailed South of the Danube. The Moldavians look more Northern as they inherited from the Ukranians and have also some East Asian inherited from the Tartars.
The Romanian government tried very hard to assimilate minorities after the big 1918 territory expansion, in which it largely succeeded as they were Christians. Bulgarian government tried the same with near 0 success as the largest minorities in Bulgaria were Muslims (Turks and the local Turkish Roma, not counting the Pomaks, who are Bulgarians genetically).
The genetics on the Balkans is changed gradually and does not match the geographical and language borders, see, for example "Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns":
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/full

Gravetto-Danubian
03-03-2016, 07:10 AM
The explanation is simple - the Vachs moving North absorbed what's left of the autochthonous population there. Their language prevailed the same way as Slavic prevailed South of the Danube. The Moldavians look more Northern as they inherited from the Ukranians and have also some East Asian inherited from the Tartars.
The Romanian government tried very hard to assimilate minorities after the big 1918 territory expansion, in which it largely succeeded as they were Christians. Bulgarian government tried the same with near 0 success as the largest minorities in Bulgaria were Muslims (Turks and the local Turkish Roma, not counting the Pomaks, who are Bulgarians genetically).
The genetics on the Balkans is changed gradually and does not match the geographical and language borders, see, for example "Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns":
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/full

Yes, Eastara, I'm aware of that, and agree in part. But I'm not sure if it was quite that simple. At the moment, i haven't yet formulated a strong position either way, but do not see it as an impossibility that Romance languages continued to be spoken north of the Danube between 300 - 900 AD.

The Romanian lands were populated in the Middle Ages. How do you suppose the entire country switched languages to speak Romanian ?

gravetti
03-03-2016, 07:31 AM
http://books.openedition.org/ceup/935
The problem of continuity is no more than the extreme manifestation of a more general lack of clear knowledge concerning the geographical setting of the beginnings of the Romanian people.

http://www.hunsor.se/dosszie/daco_rumanian_continuity_legend.pdf

1. The Appearance of the Theory of Continuity The historical
background.

The first documentary mentioning Rumanians in Transyl- vania refers to the year 1210 AD
(cf. B. Jancsó: Erdély története (The History of Transylvania/, Cluj-Kolozsvár, 1931, p. 42).
Their number was, however, in the first centuries after their appearance, very low. This is
apparent from the analysis of placenames. An investigation of the names of villages exist- ing
today gives the following picture: Before the end of the 13th century, the names of 511
villages in Transylvania and in the Banat appear in documents, of which only three are of
Rumanian origin. Up to 1400 AD, 1757 villages are mentioned, out of which 76 (4.3%) have
names of Rumanian origin (cf. Kniezsa, 1943, p. 158). In the following centuries the number
of Rumanians continued to increase: in the 1700s AD, they amounted to about 40% of the
total population. During the 18th century, the number of Rumanians in Transylvania increased
even more. The cause of this was mainly the immig- ration of peasants from Muntenia and
Moldavia, the Ruma- nian countries, where they lived in squalor, being exploited by the Turks
as well as by their own lords.

Old Turkic Hydronyms in Romania

http://www.academia.edu/9843611/Turkic_Hydronyms_in_Romania

Volat
03-03-2016, 11:26 AM
Some southern Slavs see Romanians as cultural cousins. This may have something to do with Orthodoxy and the fact that Romanians used Slavic language in liturgy. Personally, I view Romanians no different than Hungarians, Austrians or northern Italians. I don't see them as western Europeans. And they aren't kins in my eyes either. Macedonians living on the border with Greece or Lusatians Sorbs in Germany are more related to my culture than Romanians or Moldovans.

Dorkymon
03-03-2016, 12:55 PM
As far I know the same large sample for Romanians released to public is used in published studies and personal projects. Here's a published study by Yunusbaev et al https://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/1/359.full

PS Was there a migration from southern Balkans to Romania? It could happen given many Vlach shepherds were always moving in search of new pastures.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/29zwhn4.jpg

It wasn't anything organised that happened at the same time, but it is believed that Vlach shepherds moved all around the peninsula and beyond further North, until they established their state on the territory of present-day Romania. This is why there are pockets of Romanians scattered around the Balkans till nowadays. Obviously, a lot of them have been assimilated into the dominant population of the countries they found themselves into, but we have records of their existence.

Istro-Romanians and Morlachs from Croatia are one them, who apparently had some degree of autonomy at some point, the others are Gorals from Poland and Moravian Vlachs from Czechia. There is also a reason to believe that Bolokhoveni were Vlachs since the only counter-argument to their origin stems from archaeological evidence suggesting that their material culture appears to be of Slavic origin. From my point of view this argument is not conclusive since Romanian culture even nowadays appears to have a strong Slavic base. In fact one could argue that Romanians are Slavic in everything but language.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Morlachia.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravian_Wallachia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolokhoveni

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folklore_of_Romania

Dorkymon
03-03-2016, 01:01 PM
Phylogenetic network from Standing at the Gateway to Europe - The Genetic Structure of Western Balkan Populations Based on Autosomal and Haploid Markers. Lejla Kovacevic et al. (2014).

http://postimg.org/image/gmy0tuwz3/full/


It appears most studies use the same Romanian sample. Either PuntDNAL has obtained a new sample or the results are skewed due to some counfounding factors.

PuntDNAL uses samples from GEDmatch in addition to academic sources, which sounds fair to me. It has proven to be more accurate for me than any other calculator. I've never received Romanian as my first match on any calculator, but PuntDNAL (and with such a low distance).

Dorkymon
03-03-2016, 01:11 PM
And its also Y markers. The study of Underhill found more M458 in Moldavians, whilst it was not too common in Romanians.

On the other hand, there really isn't much evidence for migration of "Wallach" from the Balkans to Romania, apart from odd reports of Vlachs and Bulgarians 'fleeing north" during their frequent wars with Byzantium. In addition, there is good evidence for population-settlement continuity in wallachia and Moldavia.

Overall, we can definitely see close connections between Romanians and Serbs/ Bulgarians/ Macedonians. But what underlies this, and when, is more difficult to gauge. I have a hunch that the 'southernness' of Romanians might not stem from an 11th century AD migration north, but I won't say too much for now . .

As I understand it at this moment, the closer than expected proximity to Bulgarians/Macedonians and Serbs can be explained by two things: transhumance and the assimilation of the Vlachs into identifying as South Slavs. Didn't the Second Bulgarian Empire also go by the name of the Empire of Vlachs and Bulgars after all?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bulgarian_Empire

Moldovans appear more North-Eastern shifted due to their assimilation of Ukrainians. Traditional Ukrainian surnames endings in "-iuc, -co" are quite prevalent in Moldovans who don't identify as Ukrainian ethnics. Apart from the ones who have been assimilated, even to this day there exists a numerically significant Ukrainian community in Moldova (without Transnistria), 8.3% according to the latest census. Moreover, one of the most popular surnames in Moldovans, who are of Romanian origin, hint at the Slavs whom they lived together and mixed with. Here is a list of Moldovan surnames, listed by their frequency.

http://nume.casata.md/index.php?l=ro

I will break down the most popular ten of them for you guys. Remember that these names are assumed by Moldovans who consider themselves to have a Moldovan/Romanian origin instead of a Slavic one.



No.
Surname
Meaning


1
Rusu
Either Rus (medieval Slavic group) or from the Slavic Rusi' (blonde)


2
Ceban
Shepherd, also common in Romania


3
Ciobanu
Shepherd, variation of Ceban, also common in Romania


4
Țurcan
Turk as in Turkic, also in Hungarian as Csurka


5
Cebotari
Shoemaker, from Romanian ciubotă = boot


6
Lungu
Long, from Romanian lung


7
Sîrbu
Serb, from Romanian sîrb


8
Munteanu
Highlander, from Romanian munte = mountain; popular surname from the Wallachian region in Romania


9
Popa
Priest, from Romanian popă


10
Rotari
"Wheeler", from Romanian roată = wheel; popular as Rotaru in Romania



The most frequent surnames in Romania for comparison:

http://puu.sh/ntjAJ/2e03e8729f.png

Dorkymon
03-03-2016, 01:25 PM
http://puu.sh/ntgnB/34c2ad4813.png

http://puu.sh/ntgpR/bad1971dc1.png

http://puu.sh/ntgtc/42cf34c077.png


Similarly, eastern European populations formed a separate cluster, which is adjacent to the cluster encompassing the Balkan and Romanian samples. However, unlike in the PC analysis, the Italian populations were clearly separated from the south Balkan populations (Greeks and Albanians), with the latter showing greatest affinities with the north/central Balkans and Romanians. Moldavians from Karahasani and Sofia appeared to associate closely with each other along the inner margin of eastern/central European and Balkan-Carpathian clusters, respectively. Furthermore, the absence of a correlation between the ethnic and genetic diversities of the populations within the Balkan-Carpathian cluster is noteworthy. Specifically, Romanian populations appeared to be interspersed among the southern Slavic populations.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0053731

Dorkymon
03-03-2016, 03:24 PM
An insightful paper found in the Central European Regional Policy and Human Geography journal, issue no.1, 2013.

FROM CARPATHIANS TO PINDUS. TRANSHUMANCE – A BRIDGE BETWEEN ROMANIANS AND AROMANIANS

Ionel Calin MICLE PhD-student, Department of Geography, Tourism and Territorial Planning, University of Oradea


Grazing and farming were the main activities of this people from Carpathian to Pindus Mountains since the ancient Thracian-Dacians time until the early 20th century. If agriculture in the plains of Thessaly and Wallachia filled the bread basket of the Roman, Byzantine and then the Ottoman Empire, shepherding flocks, sometimes semi-nomadic was more than an economic activity, it was the bridge between Romanians in various provinces subjugated by foreign empires and, also a factor of cultural emancipation and preservation of values, traditions and Romanian identity.

...This study is based on bibliographic study and on the research of documents from medieval times to interwar and recent times in which we found evidence of some foreign travelers about Romanian regions and about the countries in the Balkans inhabited by Aromanians, historical maps, studies about transhumance of some researchers from various fields from historical to linguistic or ethnography. It is also based on a field research made in the Mărginimea Sibiului and Brasov areas, two centers of radiation of this phenomenon from the Carpathians until Pannonian Plain, Silesia, Balkan Mountains to the Caucasus.

...Regarding the age of shepherding, which developed in close connection with the agriculture, it seems that it dates from the time of the ancient Thracian-Dacian tribes, determined on the basis of archaeological discoveries and ancient inscriptions found in Dobrudja, related to the economic exchange between the Dacians and the Greek cities of the Black Sea coast. This occupation is also attested during the Roman occupation (Ghelase, 1971). The age of this activity is also proven by the fact that the old name of „Vlach”, given both to Romanians and to Aromanians, became to be considered as equivalent to or synonymous with that of „pastor” (Capidan, 2010). The shepherding continuity in Roman times is also proven by the fact that all important terms related to grazing and herd like „wool”, „sheep” and „whistle” are of Latin origin (Meteș, 1925). In addition to these terms, seniority is attested by passages toponymy across the Danube as “sheep ford” (such sheep fords were located at Bechet, Giurgiu, Olteniţa, Călărași and Hârșova ) (Dragomir, 1938).

Simon Mehedinti (1943) reveals that even Traian’s Column has pastoral scenes of the Dacians. He believes that the transhumance was first concentrated in the Transylvanian Plateau and only in safe historical periods it extended towards the periphery of Carpathians. As a core area of the birth of this phenomenon, he indicates Retezat Mountains as the oldest pastoral area of Romania. Also in his work, quoting Nicholas Bethlen Count of 1662, we find that most of the revenues of the Hungarian nobles were based on the Transylvanian shepherds.

...Both branches of the north-Danubian Romanians (Daco-Romanians) and the south Danubian Romanians (Aromanians) show that they have practiced transhumance since antiquity, as attested by written sources and oral tradition and shepherd terms inherited by them from Latin. The points of contact between the two branches of Romanian and Aromanian shepherds were Balkan Mountains and Tisza Plain, sometimes even Dobrudja. The existence of nuclei of origin for both Romanian pastor branches, in Central Carpathian depressions and mountain area for Romanians (areas of Săcele, Brașov, Covasna and Vrancea) and Pind-Gramos Mountains for Aromanians (areas of Samarina, Vlahoclisura, Gramoște, Corcea, Veria, Grebena etc.). Romanian shepherds from the area of Mărginimea Sibiului and Bran-Rucar-Săcele wintered mainly in the Danube meadow and marches in Dobrudja, sometimes directed toward Moldova and even to the Crimea, while Aroamanians were heading especially towards
the Plain of Thessaly and Meglen Plain in Greece or Muzaquia Plane in Albania. For summer pastures, Romanians preferred the Carpathians, the Balkans or the Caucasus Mountains while Aromanians bound for Pindos Mountains, Epirus or Dinaric Mountains till Istria (Figure 2).

Fixed Dates for climbing and descending from the mountain, that coincided with the religious holidays of St. Demetrius and St. George. (Capidan, 2010). Type of organization and association between cattle owners, “the celnic” at Aromanian shepherds and the “the păcurar” at Romanians, had similar functions. Both are suppliers of products for the Ottoman Empire and more than that, assured significant funds for treasury of Turkey, Austria and Principalities of transit taxes to taxes paid as rent for pastures of entire mountains because these pastors had huge herds. Ion Ionescu de la Brad mentions only Dobrogea in 1850 over a million sheep and Capidan gives us for the year 1936, the number of 150,000 sheeps only for the Aromanian common Gramoştea in Greece.

Occurrence of synergistic point routes like fairs, huts, tents - future villages and cities. It is well known that Mocanii from the Sibiu Surroundings founded permanent settlements in Wallachia and Dobrudja, where another time came with their flocks, they bought land and became large landowners and became sedentary there (Georgescu, 1925), as did the Aromanians, which have founded settlements in Thessaly plain, becoming farmers. Another similarity is the existence of places and routes of transhumance kept from generation to generation, like trodden paths of history, some shared between the two branches such as the Balkan Mountains and the Tisza Plain. The main difference between Romanians and Aromanians is that, at Romanians there was only transhumance, while at the Aromanians with transhumance nomadic pastoralism is also met (Figure 3).

http://puu.sh/ntmf1/e64c750db9.jpg

http://puu.sh/ntmgf/e7d58225ab.jpg

Source (http://www.cerphg.unideb.hu/PDF/2013_1/3_calin_nyomda.pdf)

Dorkymon
03-03-2016, 04:16 PM
On Morlachs (medieval community of Vlachs from Croatia, Serbia and BiH), a classic case of the assimilation of Vlachs into South Slavs

http://puu.sh/ntonf/7b805743a5.png
http://puu.sh/nto7T/d11e937cd0.png
http://puu.sh/ntoam/84d9f18fd0.png
http://puu.sh/ntocv/56deb40718.png
http://puu.sh/ntofi/77f0570aa5.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs_(Venetian_irregulars)

An interesting Serb resource about Morlachs, use google translate.

http://www.paundurlic.com/forum.vlasi.srbije/index.php?topic=733.0

J1 DYS388=13
03-03-2016, 04:37 PM
I'm trying to figure out why this 1,800 year old Rusyn, Goral, Moravian Vlach, and Polish cluster of J1 has no known members left in the Balkans.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z0C7lmnLIDx4.k_oKfltPsiqI&usp=sharing

Its closest relative (at a distance of over 7,700 years) is another apparently European branch of J1 which also must have passed through Romania, but does not seem to exist there now.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z0C7lmnLIDx4.kQRaWcsg-lmU&usp=sharing

George
03-03-2016, 04:49 PM
http://puu.sh/mPQt2/8691f79b8a.png

Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs)
c
One small point. I haven't read the secondary literature on this problem, so possibly previous scholars noticed this reading. From my experience of mediaeval manuscripts, the script "ac" may rather ambiguously stand for either "and" (where "ac" is identical to "et") or for "or" (where "ac" is an abbreviation of "aut" {"aut" is identical to "vel" = or}. So the statement cited above might actually read "Sclavii, Bulgarii, et Blachii, AUT pastores Romanorum". On this reading "pastores Romanorum" would be an explanation of the identity of "Blachii". The Vlachs (or the shepherds of the Romans).

Dorkymon
03-03-2016, 05:30 PM
c
One small point. I haven't read the secondary literature on this problem, so possibly previous scholars noticed this reading. From my experience of mediaeval manuscripts, the script "ac" may rather ambiguously stand for either "and" (where "ac" is identical to "et") or for "or" (where "ac" is an abbreviation of "aut" {"aut" is identical to "vel" = or}. So the statement cited above might actually read "Sclavii, Bulgarii, et Blachii, AUT pastores Romanorum". On this reading "pastores Romanorum" would be an explanation of the identity of "Blachii". The Vlachs (or the shepherds of the Romans).

Thanks, this would dismiss the fact that Blacs are a hypothetical different ethnicity from Vlachs, as I remember reading somewhere on this thread.

Dorkymon
03-03-2016, 05:53 PM
http://books.openedition.org/ceup/935
The problem of continuity is no more than the extreme manifestation of a more general lack of clear knowledge concerning the geographical setting of the beginnings of the Romanian people.

http://www.hunsor.se/dosszie/daco_rumanian_continuity_legend.pdf

1. The Appearance of the Theory of Continuity The historical
background.

The first documentary mentioning Rumanians in Transyl- vania refers to the year 1210 AD
(cf. B. Jancsó: Erdély története (The History of Transylvania/, Cluj-Kolozsvár, 1931, p. 42).
Their number was, however, in the first centuries after their appearance, very low. This is
apparent from the analysis of placenames. An investigation of the names of villages exist- ing
today gives the following picture: Before the end of the 13th century, the names of 511
villages in Transylvania and in the Banat appear in documents, of which only three are of
Rumanian origin. Up to 1400 AD, 1757 villages are mentioned, out of which 76 (4.3%) have
names of Rumanian origin (cf. Kniezsa, 1943, p. 158). In the following centuries the number
of Rumanians continued to increase: in the 1700s AD, they amounted to about 40% of the
total population. During the 18th century, the number of Rumanians in Transylvania increased
even more. The cause of this was mainly the immig- ration of peasants from Muntenia and
Moldavia, the Ruma- nian countries, where they lived in squalor, being exploited by the Turks
as well as by their own lords.

Old Turkic Hydronyms in Romania

http://www.academia.edu/9843611/Turkic_Hydronyms_in_Romania

You are quoting a paper from the 1980s, which used citations from interbellum and the WW2 period. I hope you can understand how something from that period can be easily politically motivated. Refer to the text of Gesta Hungarorum, one of the most important chronicles about the origins of Hungarians. It states vividly that Vlachs were already settled alongside Slavs in Transylvania when Hungarians arrived. Their numbers are not really important since we know that they were shepherds who didn't settle permanently in one place. They were marching with their sheep flocks all across the Carpathian arch and deep into the Balkans. Slavic sources from Russia document about the existence of Vlachs across the Carpathians and the Balkans in their chronicles about the migration of Slavs.

http://i.imgur.com/EnJaypp.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/D-R_comparison.jpg

Dorkymon
03-03-2016, 11:01 PM
Paternal lineages across Europe and the Near East

Regueiro, Maria, et al. "High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia." Gene 498.1 (2012): 59-67.
(https://sci-hub.io/http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037811191200073X)

http://puu.sh/ntOn5/3c525cd6a7.png

E1b1b1
http://puu.sh/ntOD7/8573660909.jpg

G
http://puu.sh/ntOE1/03c6b64f30.jpg

J
http://puu.sh/ntOG3/2b4dfb5559.jpg

R1b
http://puu.sh/ntOHo/3f53bc21cc.jpg

I
http://puu.sh/ntOR8/191b77c6cc.jpg

R1a
http://puu.sh/ntPdO/9b179b021f.jpg

I + R1a
http://puu.sh/ntPff/0e38a01e19.jpg

E1b1b1 + G + J + R1b
http://puu.sh/ntPhL/9056675027.jpg


All haplogroups under one table for the Southeastern Europe region + Turkey
(http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups_by_region.shtml)
http://puu.sh/ntQ6V/f56d8d4783.png

Illyro-Vlach
03-04-2016, 06:26 AM
Istro-Romanians and Morlachs from Croatia are one them, who apparently had some degree of autonomy at some point, the others are Gorals from Poland and Moravian Vlachs from Czechia. There is also a reason to believe that Bolokhoveni were Vlachs since the only counter-argument to their origin stems from archaeological evidence suggesting that their material culture appears to be of Slavic origin. From my point of view this argument is not conclusive since Romanian culture even nowadays appears to have a strong Slavic base. In fact one could argue that Romanians are Slavic in everything but language.

In Historiography about the Vlachs in the Western Balkans, we learn that the term 'Vlach' was used in different ways to describe different people at different times, with the one unifying factor that whatever group is being called "Vlach" (or variants of it like Cici/Morlach) are descended from Romance-speakers on the Balkan Peninsula who practiced Transhumance.

So we end up seeing situations in historiography in which Italian traders in Zagreb are colloquially referred to as "Vlachs", and where one of the main streets (where a lot of shops are located) is Vlaska Ulica (Vlach Street).

We end up seeing Catholic Vlachs pop up in historiography in Croatia in the early 14th century where some are settled on the island of Rab in the Northern Adriatic while others ally with Ban Subic and together with him attack coastal Dalmatian towns. We do not know if these Vlachs were strictly speaking Medieval Croatian/Slavic or were bilingual. The general consensus is that these Catholic Vlachs were from the Dinaric Alps for some time.

Shortly thereafter we see the arrival of Orthodox Vlachs thanks to the Ottoman Imperialist drive. Some are said to have come from Smederevo (Eastern Serbia, along the border with Romania on the Danube) while others seem to have arrived from Hercegovina/Montenegro/Southwestern Serbia (including the region of Stari Vlah/Old Vlach). They certainly were Slavic speakers and I'm unaware of any sources claiming that they were bilingual when they arrived in Croatia's Lika, Slavonia, and Dalmatia.

So at this point we have Vlachs of two confessions with similar cultures (transhumance, some farming, warriors, fierce independence streaks, living in 'katuns', highly patriarchal, extended families), but with the Catholic Vlachs assimilating into the predominant Croatian culture/already assimilated. These Vlachs all had similar names such as Vukman and Vukdrag, as the Council of Trent had yet to have its coming effect on the Catholics who by the 16th century began taking Christian first names, thus differentiating themselves from the Orthodox Vlachs in this manner.

By the time Alberto Fortis visits Dalmatia and writes about the Morlachs (late 18th century), they are unilingual, still rebellious, but fully separate from one another with confessional lines being the strong divide. Dominating the hinterlands, Vlach by this point meant "those in the hills and the mountains", tantamount to 'barbarians'. By this point the Catholic Vlachs were ready to be absorbed into the Croatian National Corpus fully (a process that had begun centuries prior). The Establishment of the Serbian Orthodox Church's Patriarchy in these lands tied Orthodoxy to Serbian Identity, thus creating the groundwork for the assimilation of the Orthodox Vlachs/Morlachs into the Serbian Nation.

Meanwhile in Bosnia, Catholic and Orthodox peasants and their priests referred to all the Muslims in Bosnia as Turks (except for the small amount of Albanian Muslims whom they referred to as 'Arnauti') while the Muslims in Bosnia referred to Christian peasants of both confessions as "Vlachs". This term is used pejoratively to this day.

Fast forward to the present in Dalmatia and those on the islands and the coast refer to all those from the Dalmatian Hinterland as 'Vlaji' (Vlachs) pejoratively, including me :)

Illyro-Vlach
03-04-2016, 06:35 AM
Addendum:

With the arrival of the Orthodox Vlachs in Dalmatia in the 16th century, we see a differentiation arise where Catholic Vlachs are referred to as "Bunjevci" (an exonym), many of whom end up settling Lika and others who go as far as Backa in the Vojvodina Province of Serbia. Of those in Serbia, some identify as ethnic Croatians, while others declare themselves Bunjevci. Neither of them are referred to as Vlachs despite their roots.

Illyro-Vlach
03-04-2016, 06:47 AM
One question for the board members:

Has anyone here come across any documentation attesting to the supposed migration of Vlachs from Thessaly and Epirus towards today's Montenegro and Hercegovina? This would be of great interest to me as I've seen this stated but have yet to come across any historical documentation.

Gravetto-Danubian
03-04-2016, 07:53 AM
One question for the board members:

Has anyone here come across any documentation attesting to the supposed migration of Vlachs from Thessaly and Epirus towards today's Montenegro and Hercegovina? This would be of great interest to me as I've seen this stated but have yet to come across any historical documentation.

Not off hand, though I haven't extensively researched it.
AFAIK, 'Vlachs' and such start coming into prominence in Macedonia & other lands of the Byzantine oikumene after the (re-)conquest of cis-Danubia by Basil. They appear as special, military units serving (not always loyally) the Byzantines, and I believe are first noted when they killed Tsar Samuil's brother, Aaron.

Illyro-Vlach
03-04-2016, 08:10 AM
Not off hand, though I haven't extensively researched it.
AFAIK, 'Vlachs' and such start coming into prominence in Macedonia & other lands of the Byzantine oikumene after the (re-)conquest of cis-Danubia by Basil. They appear as special, military units serving (not always loyally) the Byzantines, and I believe are first noted when they killed Tsar Samuil's brother, Aaron.

Here's a paper on Vlach soldiers during the Medieval era:

Medieval Vlach Soldiers and the Beginnings of Ottoman Voynuks, in: Belgrade Historical Review 2 (2010) pp. 105-128 (https://www.academia.edu/15193590/Medieval_Vlach_Soldiers_and_the_Beginnings_of_Otto man_Voynuks_in_Belgrade_Historical_Review_2_2010_p p._105-128)


Тhe aim of this thesis is to prove that the source of Ottoman voynuk order was in the organisation of vlach soldiers from the estates of large feudal lords or Christian rulers in the pre-Turkish period. Situation recorded in the most accessible sources i.e. monastery charters, also lead to this conclusion, although lacking complete agreement.

Here is another interesting paper:

Being an Ottoman Vlach: On Vlach Identity(ies), Role and Status in Western Parts of the Ottoman Balkans (15th -18th Centuries) (https://www.academia.edu/7453833/Being_an_Ottoman_Vlach_On_Vlach_Identity_ies_Role_ and_Status_in_Western_Parts_of_the_Ottoman_Balkans _15th_-18th_Centuries_)


Abstract

Following the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans, the Vlachs, still a largely nomadic and semi-nomadic population, made special arrangements with the conquerors. They served as a colonising force in newly conquered areas, manning auxiliary military units such as voynuks and martoloses, etc. In exchange, the Ottomans granted the Vlachs wide exemptions and autonomies that made them significantly different from the ordinary subject population –re‘âyâ. During the course of time, with centralisation and changes to state structure, the economic system and military organisation occurring, many of the services that the Vlachs used to provide for the Ottomans, became superfluous. As a result, the 1520’s saw the beginning of Vlach sedentarisation and a reduction of their privileges. By the end of the 16th century, these privileges resulted in the majority of Vlachs’ social standing being equalled to that of the filuricis, and later with ordinary re‘âyâ peasants. The Vlach response to the pressure of the state was threefold: (1) rebellion and migration to enemy territory, (2) acceptance of new realities and the loss of Vlach quality, and (3), assimilation with the “ruling people” by means of Islamisation. The 18th century, on the other hand, witnessed the rise of “conquering Orthodox merchants,” originally Vlachs, who distinguished themselves through wealth acquired in international trade. Despite their success, however, they once again, relatively quickly assimilated into host societies, following the fate of their nomadic predecessors.

Keywords:

Vlachs, Ottoman Empire, Western Balkans, Serbian Orthodox Church,
voynuks, martoloses

Dorkymon
03-04-2016, 03:39 PM
Is this the proof of Romanians' connection with Dacians, which we were waiting for?

Ancient DNA from South-East Europe Reveals Different Events during Early and Middle Neolithic Influencing the European Genetic Heritage
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4460020/pdf/pone.0128810.pdf)


Interestingly, the genetic analysis of a relatively large number of samples of Boian, Zau and Gumelniţa cultures in Romania (n = 41) (M_NEO) identified a close genetic proximity between this Neolithic group and the Eastern and Central extant European populations. This was shown in the multivariate analysis, where M_NEO and modern populations from Romania are very close, in contrast with Middle Neolithic and modern populations from Central Europe(Figs 2 and 3). Whereas the genetic analysis of modern populations from Central Europe showed a limited genetic impact of the E_NEO_CE and M_NEO_CE groups in this region [21], the mtDNA data of the M_NEO groups from Romania suggest a high genetic impact on modern population in this region (see S2 Fig for shared polymorphisms).

Analysed sites

http://puu.sh/nuxIV/6ab912a69c.jpg

Plot of comparison with ancient and modern populations

http://puu.sh/nuxMY/64b1b36e64.jpg

Illyro-Vlach
03-06-2016, 09:07 PM
Some might find this site to be of value:

The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora (http://www.vlachs.gr/en/)

A map from the site showing Vlach/Aroumanian villages in Epirus and Thessaly:

http://i.imgur.com/rdiceX0.png

1769 is an important date for Aroumanians as it is considered the high watermark for Aroumanian culture as it had a thriving town, Moscopolis/Moscopole which is located in modern-day Albania near the Greek border (Epirus) and is when the first savage attacks by Albanian Muslims on the town took place. Within 20 years it was completely depopulated and the Aroumanians scattered to the south and east in more friendly territory.

As a personal aside I have been conducting some business in Romania lately and one individual with whom I've been dealing is of Aroumanian stock by way of Constanta. It seems that many Aroumanians from modern-day Greece were resettled there after WW1.

Gravetto-Danubian
03-06-2016, 09:25 PM
Is this the proof of Romanians' connection with Dacians, which we were waiting for?

Ancient DNA from South-East Europe Reveals Different Events during Early and Middle Neolithic Influencing the European Genetic Heritage
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4460020/pdf/pone.0128810.pdf)



Analysed sites

http://puu.sh/nuxIV/6ab912a69c.jpg

Plot of comparison with ancient and modern populations

http://puu.sh/nuxMY/64b1b36e64.jpg



It's certainly a good start, but really what we need is autosomes and y DNA through all periods

MtDNA is too generic and low resolution

Gravetto-Danubian
03-10-2016, 09:24 AM
In Historiography about the Vlachs in the Western Balkans, we learn that the term 'Vlach' was used in different ways to describe different people at different times, with the one unifying factor that whatever group is being called "Vlach" (or variants of it like Cici/Morlach) are descended from Romance-speakers on the Balkan Peninsula who practiced Transhumance.

So we end up seeing situations in historiography in which Italian traders in Zagreb are colloquially referred to as "Vlachs", and where one of the main streets (where a lot of shops are located) is Vlaska Ulica (Vlach Street).

We end up seeing Catholic Vlachs pop up in historiography in Croatia in the early 14th century where some are settled on the island of Rab in the Northern Adriatic while others ally with Ban Subic and together with him attack coastal Dalmatian towns. We do not know if these Vlachs were strictly speaking Medieval Croatian/Slavic or were bilingual. The general consensus is that these Catholic Vlachs were from the Dinaric Alps for some time.

Shortly thereafter we see the arrival of Orthodox Vlachs thanks to the Ottoman Imperialist drive. Some are said to have come from Smederevo (Eastern Serbia, along the border with Romania on the Danube) while others seem to have arrived from Hercegovina/Montenegro/Southwestern Serbia (including the region of Stari Vlah/Old Vlach). They certainly were Slavic speakers and I'm unaware of any sources claiming that they were bilingual when they arrived in Croatia's Lika, Slavonia, and Dalmatia.

So at this point we have Vlachs of two confessions with similar cultures (transhumance, some farming, warriors, fierce independence streaks, living in 'katuns', highly patriarchal, extended families), but with the Catholic Vlachs assimilating into the predominant Croatian culture/already assimilated. These Vlachs all had similar names such as Vukman and Vukdrag, as the Council of Trent had yet to have its coming effect on the Catholics who by the 16th century began taking Christian first names, thus differentiating themselves from the Orthodox Vlachs in this manner.

By the time Alberto Fortis visits Dalmatia and writes about the Morlachs (late 18th century), they are unilingual, still rebellious, but fully separate from one another with confessional lines being the strong divide. Dominating the hinterlands, Vlach by this point meant "those in the hills and the mountains", tantamount to 'barbarians'. By this point the Catholic Vlachs were ready to be absorbed into the Croatian National Corpus fully (a process that had begun centuries prior). The Establishment of the Serbian Orthodox Church's Patriarchy in these lands tied Orthodoxy to Serbian Identity, thus creating the groundwork for the assimilation of the Orthodox Vlachs/Morlachs into the Serbian Nation.

Meanwhile in Bosnia, Catholic and Orthodox peasants and their priests referred to all the Muslims in Bosnia as Turks (except for the small amount of Albanian Muslims whom they referred to as 'Arnauti') while the Muslims in Bosnia referred to Christian peasants of both confessions as "Vlachs". This term is used pejoratively to this day.

Fast forward to the present in Dalmatia and those on the islands and the coast refer to all those from the Dalmatian Hinterland as 'Vlaji' (Vlachs) pejoratively, including me :)

This articles you referred suggest that the term Vlachs was used for various different groups. The study by Bosch..Comas, et al showed
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8094&d=1457601684

Some have more J2, some more I2a, some have a lot of R1b, different levels of R1a, but often not too much.
So they appear to have been rather isolated entities, as expected

Dorkymon
03-21-2016, 01:47 PM
Two types of Slavic borrowings can be distinguished in Romanian. First came everyday spoken words that describe animals, emotional states, as well as certain grammatical features that appear in both spoken and written Romanian language. These Slavic features were incorporated into Balkan Latin through everyday contact of Romanian speakers with early Slav settlers. Then, with the spread of Orthodox Christianity and the Cyrillic alphabet, literary high-style words of the official Church Slavonic were introduced to supplement Romanian with terms for abstract concepts that were not present in the local Romance dialect. Writing in old Romanian language first appeared in the Cyrillic alphabet (a modified version of the Greek alphabet) in the 16th century and existed in this form in Romania until 1860s. In Moldova the tradition continued until 1990s. The alphabet reform had certain political implications and many peasants resisted it. The switch (as well as the related relatinization) caused additional tension in the unrecognized trilingual republic of Transnistria, which has decided to preserve the age-old tradition of writing in Cyrillic.

Most Slavic words were acquired through direct everyday contact with Slavic merchants, peasants, soldiers, etc. Due to massive influx of Slavs, much of the original Vlach population, estimated at 1 million people at the end of the Roman rule, became more or less bilingual during the 6th-12th centuries.[citation needed] Apparently, interethnic marriages were very common as Slavs settled among the Romanians and mingled with them very intensely. Indeed, some words describing family relations are Slavic or show heavy Slavic influence: tată < тата "father", nevastă "wife" < невеста, rudă "relatives" < родня; mezin "youngest child" < мезинец; plod "baby", the suffix -că added to Latin root fi- in fiică "daughter" (compare Slavic: дочка), bunică "granny" or maică "mommy". The degree to which Slavic and Romance populations interacted is also illustarted by the fact that practically all words that describe affection are borrowed from Slavic. A direct proof of this is the usage of Slavic particle "da" for affirmation in Romanian, which caused the native sic to shift its meaning to şi (and).

At least a quarter of the basic spoken Romanian lexis is based on common Slavic roots such as: a iubi "to love", a citi "to read", glas "voice", nevoie "need", cinstit "honest", prieten "friend", trebuie "necessary". This situation is akin to the number and usage of French borrowings in English. Slavic borrowings are especially frequent when strong emotional terms or feelings are involved: silă "compulsion", vină "guilt", jale "sorrow", milă "compassion", boală "illness, disease", iubire "love", dragoste "love", slavă "glory", nădejde "hope", etc. Slavic-derived adjectives and participles seem to have been borrowed in droves and form a whole lexical layer: slab, drag, bolnav, bogat, prost, drăgúţ, cinstit, iscusit, iubit, jalnic, zadarnic, vrednic, obraznic, voinic, groaznic, harnic, straşnic, darnic, milostiv, mucenic, etc.

Romanian uses numerous Slavic verbs to describe various actions and changes of state: a lovi "to hit", a goni "to chase", a topi "to melt", a găsi "to find", a trezi "to wake up", a pomeni "to mention", etc. Many others borrowings exist in different spheres of life: silă "force", război "war", noroi "dirt", bogăţie "richness", trup "body", plod "fetus", oglindă "mirror", copită "hoof", zori "dawn", zăpadă "snow", ceas "time", nisip "sand", vreme "weather", etc. Compare essentially the same, but less numerous Germanic borrowings in Western Romance languages such as in Spanish: guerra "war" (Slav. război in Romanian), rico "rich" (Slav. bogat), ganso "goose" (Slav. gâscă), buscar "to search" (Slav. a gasi "to find" in Romanian).

Apparently, until the arrival of Slavs Romance-speaking Vlachs were rural semi-nomadic cattle-breeders[ as most Romanian vocabulary related to cattle and cattle-breeding is of Latin origin. By contrast, most tools and utensils related to agronomy as well as new urban life have Slavic names, most likely as a result of being introduced by the agricultural Slavic population: lopată "spade", daltă "chisel", plug "plough", topor "axe", sită "sieve", nicovală "anvil", coasă "scythe", tocilă "grindstone", greblă "rake", sanie "sleigh", potcoavă "horseshoe", gard "zabor", zabrea "trellis", etc.

Names of many animals, birds, fish, and plants also made a swift transition from Slavic: vrabie "sparrow" (воробей), lebădă "swan" (лебедь), veveriţă "squirrel" (вевeрица), vidră "otter" (выдра), ştiucă "pike" (щука), rac "crayfish" (рак), păianjen "spider", lobodă "pig-weed", bob "seed, bean" (боб), morcov "carrot" (морковь), sfeclă "beets", hreniţă (хрен) "water cress", râs "lynx", etc.

Various onomatopoeic verbs and expressions such as a plescăi "splash" (compare Slav. плескать), a şopti "whisper" (compare Slav. шoпот, шептать) a hăui "echo" (эхо), tropot "clatter" (топот), a clocoti "to boil over" (клокотать), etc. are closer to their Slavic rather than Western Romance equivalents (compare Spanish: chapoteo/roción; susurro/murmurro; eco; pataleo/trapa trapa).Certain interjections such as ba! "oh yes!" and iată! "Look!" (< это) are taken from the Old Slavic (mostly Old Bulgarian) language.

Borrowings from Old Church Slavonic are also very numerous in certain lexical fields and include the following: a izbăvi < избавить "to deliver", veşnic < вечный "forever, perpetual, undying", sfânt < святой "holy, saint", a sluji < сружить "to serve", amvon < омовение "pulpit", rai < рай "paradise", iad < ад "hell", proroc < ророк "prophet", hram < храм "church patron", duhovnic < духовник "confessor", dihanie < дыхание "wild beast, monster".

Slavic terminology is almost exclusive when used to assign the titles and ranks to medieval nobility (boier, cneaz, rob, slugă, a sluji, etc.). It is also used to describe various concepts of urban life and finances that emerged with the arrival of Slavs: a plăti "pay", târg "market", rând "row", sticlă "glass", etc. Seafaring concepts are no exception: corabie "ship" , lotcă "boat", ostrov "island" and vâslă "oar" all come from their Slavic equivalents virtually unaltered.

Many Romanian names were also influenced by the use of Slavonic in Church and in administration. Over time, especially after the Latin alphabet was adopted, some Slavic words became archaic, but others such as the affirmative particle da "yes", clearly of Slavic origin, have maintained a widespread use.

In general, most Slavic borrowings have become well incorporated into Romanian and are no longer perceived as foreign. In fact, many Romanian words occur as a natural combination of Slavic and Romance elements: devreme "early", aşíjderea "likewise", a se îmbolnăvi "to fall ill", a împleti "to weave", a învârti "to turn, rotate", a îmbogăţi "to enrich", nebunie "craziness", răzbunare "revenge", răscruce crossing", bunică "granny", portiţă "wicket", româncă "Romanian woman", evreiesc "Jewish", neaşteptat "unexpected", neruşinat" "unashamed", citire "reading", iubită "girlfriend", iubesc "I love", prostie "foolishness", hulubăríe "dove-cot", slăbiciune "weakness", milos "charitable", etc.

The indirect Slavic influence on Romanian lexis and expressions is also very important. Many words and expressions were calqued from their Slavic equivalents or created to reproduce the patterns of the Slavic speech. Words such as suflet "soul" copy the logic of the Slavic word душа, and the original Latin anima shifted its meaning to inimă "heart". The development of the Romanian particle şi "and" hints at the usage of the Slavic particle "da" that is often used in both senses ("yes" as well as "and"). Other examples include lună meaning both "month" and "the moon"; "lume" (originally light) used in the sense of the world. Certain expressions such as din topor meaning "unrefined" also tend to be similar to their Slavic equivalents: топорный = грубый.

Another prominent feature of modern Romanian that has resulted from intense contact with Slavic speakers is the formation of numerals from 11 to 20. For instance, unsprezece "eleven" is based on three components "un+spre+zece" literally "one above ten". Even though the elements themselves are Romance in origin, the model itself is word-by-word imitation of a typical Slavic "один+над+цать" literally "one above ten" and is not found in the West where original whole Latin words were preserved (Spanish: once, doce, quince, veinte).

As a result of the long tradition of written Church Slavonic, most Slavic borrowings in Romanian are surprisingly well-preserved phonetically and changed little over the centuries. Some phonetic adjustment has taken place in certain cases: ohileti > a ofili, ljubiti> a iubi, protiva > potrivă, podkova > potcoavă. Importantly, many Slavic borrowing changed their original meaning after being incorporated into Romanian speech. Most notable examples are: a găsi "to find" < гасить "to extinguish", a lovi "to strike" < ловить "to catch", clipă "moment" < клепание "rhythmic movement" etc.

To a significant extent, Slavic speech patterns have also influenced borrowing from other languages. For instance, Latin schola/scola > Slav. школа shkola > modern Rom. şcoală "school". Had the original Latin word been preserved in Dacia, it would have sounded as "scoară".

Thus, Slavic borrowings in Romanian help reveal the historical development of the language even though it is difficult to determine what was the cause and what was the effect of certain developments. Whatever the cause or effect, the migration of Slavs clearly separated the old Balkan Latin from the Western Romance area. The Old Romanian language emerged. By the 6th century the previously common shift of intervocal l>r (solis>soare); an, am, in, im > ân, în; si>şi etc. stops, as new borrowings from Old Slavonic do not undergo the process: сила > silă instead of the hypothetical "şiră'". New developments such as sv>sf, h>f occur instead.

Generally, the share of Slavic words differs significantly depending on dialect and style. The number of Slavicisms is higher in border regions with significant Slavic-speaking populations. In spoken Romanian in general their share is around 30% and up to 40% in Moldova, where Russian borrowings and constructions are traditionally commonplace (Compare: "Vreau un holodilnic" instead of "Vreau să cumpăr un frigider"). In literary written Romanian, their share is somewhat lower (around 10%), while Latin-based words represent around 85%, with the remaining 5% being of Greek, Hungarian, and Turkic origin as well as from the Dacian substratum.

But even in modern literary Romanian, Slavonic influences are evident in phonetics and morphology, heavily influenced by Slavic speakers. Phonetic Slavicisms include the iotization of the initial -e in words such as el, ea, este pronounced as [jel], [ja], [jeste] (compare Spanish: el, ella, estamos, without the Slavic iotization effect) as well as the palatalization of consonants in the plural form: pom-pomi, lup-lupi pronounced as [pomʲ] and [lupʲ] etc. (compare the original Italian sound in lupi). Besides, numerous Slavic prefixes and suffixes such as ne-, -că, -iţă, răs-/răz-, have become an integral part of the Romanian lexis. Especially -că and -iţă are important markers of the feminine gender in Romanian morphology: lup-lupoaică, italian-italiancă, actor-actriţă, etc. Unlike Western Romance languages, Romanian is also quite unusual in the way that its nouns often undergo internal vowel modifications while being inflected: fată-fete, gheaţă-gheţuri, etc. This feature is quite common in the neighboring Slavic languages: лёд-льда, сон-сны, день-дни. These changes indicate that unlike later arriving Hungarians, local Slavs, who settled in the Vlach lands, were also keen on learning Balkan Latin. On the one hand, this process infused Romanian with Slavic features and on the other, led to the eventual assimilation of Slavs north of the Danube.

Noteworthy, the original Latin sound [h] was lost in early Balkan Latin between the 3rd and 5th centuries A.D., just like in the Western Romance languages: hibernum > Rom. iarnă and Spanish invierno "winter". However, Slavic interference after the 6th century lead to a reintroduction of the Slavic hard h sound into Romanian. Thus, most Romanian words with a letter h are Slavic in origin: hram, hrană, hulubărie, hrean, etc.

The addition of numerous Slavic verb stems ending in -i ( a iubi, a citi, a goni, a izbi, a răni, a primi, etc.) and -î (a posomorî, a omorî, a târî etc.) has led to a dramatic expansion of this conjugation pattern in Romanian, which is extremely productive: a opri, a zdrobi, a toropi, a osteni, a podi, a vărui, a beli, a cerni, a plesni, a coji, a ţocăi, a născoci, a grohăi, a glumi, a trudi, etc. By contrast, in Western Romance languages, the number of verbs in the original Latin "-i" group shrank over time.

Certain indirect sentence structures, such as mi-e bine, mi-e frig (literally "to me is cold"), are also Slavic-influenced (compare мне холодно). In the West, direct constructions are used instead: Spanish estoy bien. Preservation of cases and neutral gender has also occurred under Slavic influence and is not observed in modern Western Romance. The natural tendency of late Latin was to drop all noun cases and get rid of neutral gender that was redistributed between masculine and feminine (as in all modern Western Romance languages). Slavic languages have kept Romanian from losing these features. Moreover, Romanian developed a Slavic-influenced vocative case ending in -o: Fetiţo!, Mamo! (compare with Slavic Мамо!).

The sustainability of the Slavic elements in Romanian is also evident in the toponymics of Romania and Moldova. Despite the fact that Roman Dacia was the core of the ancient empire's influence, Romance population fled the original Roman cities after the fall of the Roman Empire and quickly shifted to semi-nomadic cattle-breeding. As a result, no original Roman placenames survived to the north of the Danube. Newly-founded settlements were largely a result of Slavic, and later Hungarian activities. Numerous Slavic placenames are found to these days throughout Romania and Moldova: Cernavodă, Prilog, Dumbrava, Bistriţa, Talna, Rus, Bistra, Glod, Ruscova, Straja, Putna, Hulub, Bâc, Tecuci, Potcoava, Corabia, Lipova, Holod, Topila, Ostrovu, etc.

Source (http://www.romanianhistoryandculture.com/vlachssclavini.htm)

Afshar
03-21-2016, 07:19 PM
Some interesting literature for the book wurms among us
https://books.google.nl/books?id=Q9KwCQAAQBAJ&pg=PR4&lpg=PR4&dq=romanians+turkic+danube+delta&source=bl&ots=NgiR3Fb6zt&sig=OYGqewGc3_xkH1Hsm70USfoGx90&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_xZCjv9LLAhXjFZoKHXVSAqwQ6AEIIzAC#v=on epage&q=romanians%20turkic%20danube%20delta&f=false

Dorkymon
03-22-2016, 01:01 AM
I have created a separate thread, where I will dump the 23andme results of the Romanians that I manage to find. Everyone is invited to check it out and contribute to the discussion.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6722-Romanian-23andme&p=146985#post146985

Dorkymon
06-01-2016, 02:31 PM
Well this is quite interesting and might be a partial explanation for the Slavic influence on Romania, Romanians and the Romanian language.


The Geography of Recent Genetic Ancestry across Europe (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#pbio-1001555-g005)


Figure 5. Estimated average total numbers of genetic common ancestors shared per pair of individuals in various pairs of populations, in roughly the time periods 0–500 ya, 500–1,500 ya, 1,500–2,500 ya, and 2,500–4,300 ya.
We have combined some populations to obtain larger sample sizes: “S-C” denotes Serbo-Croatian speakers in former Yugoslavia, “PL” denotes Poland, “R-B” denotes Romania and Bulgaria, “DE” denotes Germany, “UK” denotes the United Kingdom, “IT” denotes Italy, and “Iber” denotes Spain and Portugal. For instance, the green bars in the leftmost panels tell us that Serbo-Croatian speakers and Germans most likely share 0–0.25 most recent genetic common ancestor from the last 500 years, 3–12 from the period 500–1,500 years ago, 120–150 from 1500–2,500 ya, and 170–250 from 2,500–4,400 ya. Although the lower bounds appear to extend to zero, they are significantly above zero in nearly all cases except for the most recent period 0–540 ya.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/figure/image?size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555.g005

Note: The Bulgarian sample consists of only 1 individual to 14 Romanians, so the Romanian-Bulgarian cluster is pretty much Romanian.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/figure/image?size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555.t001

Dorkymon
06-01-2016, 05:43 PM
The University of Bucharest has launched the Medieval Archives of Romania. The aim of the project is to scan and make available digitally and free of charge over 50,000 documents prior to the year 1600.
(http://www.ordineazilei.ro/life/arta-si-cultura/p/arhiva-medievala-a-romaniei-peste-50000-de-documente-anterioare-anului-1600-accesibile-publicului)

Link to the archives (http://arhivamedievala.ro/webcenter/faces/oracle/webcenter/page/scopedMD/sb1ac891c_2b6f_47a7_b1ce_e311bc50c24e/PortalHome.jspx?_adf.ctrl-state=8ajxuu8em_35&wc.contextURL=%2Fspaces%2FArhivaMedievala&_afrLoop=8681708306992968#!)

Dorkymon
06-04-2016, 09:20 PM
I've managed to gather close to 1,000 samples of Romanian Y-DNA haplogroups. I will sort them out and post them here with sources to the studies and all.
Hopefully, we could get them added to eupedia, as the Romanian database from there consists of only 300 individuals.

Bane
06-05-2016, 08:05 AM
I've managed to gather close to 1,000 samples of Romanian Y-DNA haplogroups. I will sort them out and post them here with sources to the studies and all.

Looking forward to see that!

Dorkymon
06-05-2016, 06:43 PM
Alright, here is the most extensive collection of Romanian paternal haplogroups to this date. I intend on updating it once I find new data. Feel free to contribute and share.

http://i.imgur.com/lSpyMeG.png

Sources + spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oc6XHFXRaZI4LBs28q4NnESRdCs8_35M8NNxZ5kyhKU/edit#gid=783122462

Tip: All the "doi" links, like this one (dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0041803), can be accessed directly through sci-hub.cc (simply copy and paste the address into the search bar)

Bane
06-05-2016, 08:04 PM
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oc6XHFXRaZI4LBs28q4NnESRdCs8_35M8NNxZ5kyhKU/edit#gid=783122462

Nice work! I thought I knew all the existing data for Romania but you indeed had some I wasn't familiar with.

I have to say I'm surprised to see a lot of I2a and R1b in Bihor county. I wasn't expecting more than 20% for R1b anywhere in Romania. Regarding I2a, quite high frequency for Romanian far west. Sample size probably plays its role, but anyway a bit unexpected.
And at the end, it is strange to see more R1b than E1b1b in the overall results.

Thank you for the data.

Dorkymon
06-05-2016, 08:32 PM
Nice work! I thought I knew all the existing data for Romania but you indeed had some I wasn't familiar with.

I have to say I'm surprised to see a lot of I2a and R1b in Bihor county. I wasn't expecting more than 20% for R1b anywhere in Romania. Regarding I2a, quite high frequency for Romanian far west. Sample size probably plays its role, but anyway a bit unexpected.
And at the end, it is strange to see more R1b than E1b1b in the overall results.

Thank you for the data.

As you can notice, in the South, the distribution of E1b1b is slightly higher than that of R1b, whereas at a a national level R1b triumphs. It should also be noted, that this sample is slightly skewed towards the South, as the plurality of the data comes from there. If anything, the distribution of R1b, R1a and I2a would probably rise a bit if the sample was more even.

http://oglindadevest.ro/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/populatia-pe-judete-harta.jpg

Dorkymon
06-05-2016, 08:33 PM
accidental double post

Illyro-Vlach
06-06-2016, 06:54 AM
This is excellent, thank you. I know that a lot of Cincars (Aroumanians) were resettled in Constanta after WW1 and would love to see how prevalent J2B2* is there.

Dorkymon
06-06-2016, 08:36 AM
This is excellent, thank you. I know that a lot of Cincars (Aroumanians) were resettled in Constanta after WW1 and would love to see how prevalent J2B2* is there.

This is one of them (http://sci-hub.cc/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x) and I think I have stumbled across more than one study. It contains Aromanian samples from Albania, two from FYROM and one from Constanta. As I said, I haven't included any minorities in my database and this includes Aromanians too.

However, as you have stated, Constanta is home to the largest Aromanian community in Romania and as far as I know most of them declare themselves as Romanians. Therefore, they are bound to be present in the Romanian sample from Constanta. You can find it on the spreadsheet on the "Southeast Y-STR to Y-DNA" tab. Try filtering by county and selecting CT, that's the code for Constanta. Unfortunately, the J2 from there refers only to the larger clade J2-M172 though.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-06-2016, 09:35 AM
Alright, here is the most extensive collection of Romanian paternal haplogroups to this date. I intend on updating it once I find new data. Feel free to contribute and share.

http://i.imgur.com/lSpyMeG.png

Sources + spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oc6XHFXRaZI4LBs28q4NnESRdCs8_35M8NNxZ5kyhKU/edit#gid=783122462

Tip: All the "doi" links, like this one (dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0041803), can be accessed directly through sci-hub.cc (simply copy and paste the address into the search bar)

Nice.
Any further breakdowns of individual groups (I2, R1a, R1b, ..) ? ;)

Dorkymon
06-06-2016, 10:14 AM
Nice.
Any further breakdowns of individual groups (I2, R1a, R1b, ..) ? ;)

It really depends on how the datasets from the studies are broken down. In older studies, only the main clades are presented, while in newer ones subclades are shown as well. Links to all the sources from where I took the samples can be found on the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oc6XHFXRaZI4LBs28q4NnESRdCs8_35M8NNxZ5kyhKU/edit#gid=783122462

eastara
06-07-2016, 06:05 AM
Nice work! I thought I knew all the existing data for Romania but you indeed had some I wasn't familiar with.

I have to say I'm surprised to see a lot of I2a and R1b in Bihor county. I wasn't expecting more than 20% for R1b anywhere in Romania. Regarding I2a, quite high frequency for Romanian far west. Sample size probably plays its role, but anyway a bit unexpected.
And at the end, it is strange to see more R1b than E1b1b in the overall results.

Thank you for the data.

I think only South East Romanian population should be compared to Bulgarian, Serbian, etc South Balkan population. Predicted haplogroups from the South East Y-STR sheet show just that - E1b1b is about 18%, consistent with Bulgarians and Serbs, and R1b is low(12%), again consistent with the Bulgarians, who have about 11% .
If including Transylvania, no wonder the large percent of Western R1b, similar to Hungarian and German population and if Moldova and Bukovina - lots of R1a similar to Ukraine.

Volat
06-07-2016, 06:43 AM
Paleo-Balkan and Slavic Contributions to the Genetic Pool of Moldavians: Insights from the Y Chromosome (2013) http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0053731



Abstract

Moldova has a rich historical and cultural heritage, which may be reflected in the current genetic makeup of its population. To date, no comprehensive studies exist about the population genetic structure of modern Moldavians. To bridge this gap with respect to paternal lineages, we analyzed 37 binary and 17 multiallelic (STRs) polymorphisms on the non-recombining portion of the Y chromosome in 125 Moldavian males. In addition, 53 Ukrainians from eastern Moldova and 54 Romanians from the neighboring eastern Romania were typed using the same set of markers. In Moldavians, 19 Y chromosome haplogroups were identified, the most common being I-M423 (20.8%), R-M17* (17.6%), R-M458 (12.8%), E-v13 (8.8%), R-M269* and R-M412* (both 7.2%). In Romanians, 14 haplogroups were found including I-M423 (40.7%), R-M17* (16.7%), R-M405 (7.4%), E-v13 and R-M412* (both 5.6%). In Ukrainians, 13 haplogroups were identified including R-M17 (34.0%), I-M423 (20.8%), R-M269* (9.4%), N-M178, R-M458 and R-M73 (each 5.7%). Our results show that a significant majority of the Moldavian paternal gene pool belongs to eastern/central European and Balkan/eastern Mediterranean Y lineages. Phylogenetic and AMOVA analyses based on Y-STR loci also revealed that Moldavians are close to both eastern/central European and Balkan-Carpathian populations. The data correlate well with historical accounts and geographical location of the region and thus allow to hypothesize that extant Moldavian paternal genetic lineages arose from extensive recent admixture between genetically autochthonous populations of the Balkan-Carpathian zone and neighboring Slavic groups.

Bane
06-07-2016, 06:47 AM
What about I2 in Transylvania?
Registered frequency for Cluj is 14%, sample size 50.
For Bihor county there is 29% I2, sample size 70.

Which one should be more realistic?

Gravetto-Danubian
06-07-2016, 06:52 AM
I think we can compile a more complete picture for R1a & R1b, thanks to Underhill & Myres, resp.
Its the rest which are still broad-brushed

gravetti
06-07-2016, 08:01 AM
What about I2 in Transylvania?
Registered frequency for Cluj is 14%, sample size 50.
For Bihor county there is 29% I2, sample size 70.

Which one should be more realistic?

None of them.Registered frequency of I2 for the Hungarian Csango ethnic minority in Gyimes is 28.4%.There is significant regional differences in Romania and other parts of Central Europe.

Bane
06-07-2016, 08:17 AM
Registered frequency of I2 for the Hungarian Csango ethnic minority in Gyimes is 28.4%.

30% for the Eastern Carpathians is not a surprise.
As far as my understanding goes, I2 frequency inside Romania should be highest in the region of Romanian Moldova, then a bit lower in Walachia and it should be lowest in Transylvania.

My estimation for I2 in Transylvania is 20-22%. Majority of it should of course be I-CTS10228, but not all of it.

gravetti
06-07-2016, 09:09 AM
I am not sure about that.There is no data at all for Transylvanian Plain for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Plain

Bihor County https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihor_County is located in Partium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partium ,not in

Transylvania proper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvania

Dorkymon
06-07-2016, 12:12 PM
I am not sure about that.There is no data at all for Transylvanian Plain for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Plain

Bihor County https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihor_County is located in Partium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partium ,not in

Transylvania proper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvania

Sorry guys, there are several samples from Transylvania and Moldova on the spreadsheet (Database sheet), but you might have not noticed that since I labeled them by the acronym of the county.

RO-PN = Piatra Neamt (Moldova) (link: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0053731)
RO-CJ = Cluj Napoca (Transylvania) (link: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041803)
RO-BV = Brasov (Transylvania) (link: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041803)
RO-all country = 1: Maramures, 2: Bihor, 3: Arad, 4: Alba, 5: Harghita, 6: Mehedinti, 7: Neamt, 8: Vrancea, but without 9: Republic of Moldova (link: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v9/n1/pdf/5200580a.pdf)

Dorkymon
06-07-2016, 12:23 PM
I think only South East Romanian population should be compared to Bulgarian, Serbian, etc South Balkan population. Predicted haplogroups from the South East Y-STR sheet show just that - E1b1b is about 18%, consistent with Bulgarians and Serbs, and R1b is low(12%), again consistent with the Bulgarians, who have about 11% .
If including Transylvania, no wonder the large percent of Western R1b, similar to Hungarian and German population and if Moldova and Bukovina - lots of R1a similar to Ukraine.

Even more so, this is also supported by the mtDNA frequencies in Southern and Northern Romania.

The first four genetic boundaries (lines: a, b, c and d) detected by BARRIER version 2.2 using genetic distance matrix based on the mtDNA haplogroup frequencies. (http://bmcgenet.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2156-15-56)

https://static-content.springer.com/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2156-15-56/MediaObjects/12863_2013_Article_1245_Fig4_HTML.jpg

Bane
06-07-2016, 12:47 PM
RO-all country = 1: Maramures, 2: Bihor, 3: Arad, 4: Alba, 5: Harghita, 6: Mehedinti

Are you in a position to calculate frequencies for these six counties only?
Since they are in the extended Transylvania, we would have somewhat better picture of it.

Dorkymon
06-07-2016, 12:54 PM
I think we can compile a more complete picture for R1a & R1b, thanks to Underhill & Myres, resp.
Its the rest which are still broad-brushed

I was covered by Rootsi et al back in 2004 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/), though it doesn't quite explore the subclades.

Out of 361 Romanian samples, 80 or 22.2% came out as I.

I* = 0.8%
I1-M253 = 1.7%
I2a1-P37 = 17.7%
I2a2a-M223 = 1.9%

Dorkymon
06-07-2016, 12:57 PM
Are you in a position to calculate frequencies for these six counties only?
Since they are in the extended Transylvania, we would have somewhat better picture of it.

I don't have time right now, but the frequencies are in the study. The only thing that needs to be done is to update the clades from the old nomenclature to the current one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_table_for_Y_chromosome_haplogroups

By the way, Mehedinti definitely does not count as Transylvania, even by the extended definition. It is one of the southernmost counties, even more so than Bucharest.

Bane
06-07-2016, 01:06 PM
I don't have time right now, but the frequencies are in the study. The only thing that needs to be done is to update the clades from the old nomenclature to the current one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_table_for_Y_chromosome_haplogroups

By the way, Mehedinti definitely does not count as Transylvania, even by the extended definition. It is one of the southernmost counties, even more so than Bucharest.

Interesting... Ok I will try to do that sometime.

Bane
06-07-2016, 01:07 PM
By the way, Mehedinti definitely does not count as Transylvania, even by the extended definition. It is one of the southernmost counties, even more so than Bucharest.

Yes, sorry, that was my mistake.

Bane
06-09-2016, 04:16 PM
Here is how I understand the results from Y chromosome analysis reveals a sharp genetic boundary in the Carpathian region (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v9/n1/pdf/5200580a.pdf):




Haplogroup

Maramures
Bihor
Arad
Alba
Hargita
Mehedinti
Neamt
Vrancea
Rep. Of Moldova


R1b

25.0
14.3
32.1
30.8
25.0
20.0

11.1
5.7


I + G
G + I1 + I2a + I2b
21.4
34.3
17.9
30.8
44.4
33.3
42.4
33.3
37.1


unknown

3.6










R1a

14.3
20.0
14.3
19.2
19.4
6.7
27.3
27.8
35.7


E1b
mostly E-V13
3.6
5.7
3.6
11.5
5.6
20.0
6.1
11.1
8.6


unknown
some E branch?








1.4


J
J1 + J2
32.1
17.1
17.9


20.0
21.2
16.7
2.9


unknown
some J branch?


3.6








N1
probably N1c

5.7
3.6



3.0

4.3


unknown
some N branch




2.8



1.4


T


2.9
7.1
7.7
2.8



1.4


unknown









1.4


-












sample size

28
35
28
26
36
15
33
18
70

Dorkymon
06-17-2016, 09:07 PM
From this week's research "The genetic structure of the world's first farmers" (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/06/16/059311)

There are 10 Romanian samples, 5 of them coming from Alba in Central Romania and 5 from Gorj in Southern Romania.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/Judetul_Alba_3D_map.jpg/290px-Judetul_Alba_3D_map.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Judetul_Gorj_3D_map.jpg/290px-Judetul_Gorj_3D_map.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UTb4LJk.png

http://i.imgur.com/wJOWMhC.png

They cluster primarily with Bulgarians, not with all of them though.

gravetti
06-18-2016, 05:06 AM
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/ei/ei_2.htm#7_2

The presence of the Bulgarians in Transylvania in the ninth century can be ascertained not only through written records [451] but also through archaeological remnants and from surviving place names. The jewelry of the ninth and tenth centuries in Ciumbrud, for example, reveals a close relationship to objects found in Bulgaria. It is known that the salt mines in the Mureş valley were held by the Bulgars and that on the middle course of that river, in Cîrna-Blandiana B (Maroskarna, Alba County) and in Ciumbrud, Bulgarian graves of the ninth century were found, which contained earthenware and jewelry of a kind that had counterparts only in Bulgaria south of the Danube. The above-mentioned cemeteries reveal a Bulgaro-Turkic rather than a Bulgaro-Slav connection. [452] It may be assumed that the carriers of the culture of the cemetery of Cîrna-Blandiana B are the people who moved from the south to the north of the Danube. According to archaeological evidence, the Bulgarian Empire settled peoples from the south to the lower Danube, in the second half of the ninth century, in the territory adjoining the middle part of the Mureş River. The sources provide no data on the ethnic composition of this population; it is known, however, that the population of the Bulgarian Empire at that time consisted of several different Slavic tribes. The locality of Zeligrad (Sóvár) in Transylvania, in the vicinity of Blandiana and Zlatna (Zalatna), the Bulgarian Zlatica (the Gold Town) also attests to onetime Bulgarian rule.

eastara
06-18-2016, 12:39 PM
There are numerous occasions of Bulgarians moving to nowadays Romania in more recent times.
After the suppression of the so called Chiprovtsi uprising the remaining Bulgarian Catholic community fled first to Wallachia and then to Transylvania and Banat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat_Bulgarians
Since Wallachia was independent from the Ottomans many Bulgarians fled there and settled both in the bigger cities and the countryside. Some were left in Dobrudja when it was given to Romania after the Russian/Turkish war in 1878, etc.
It is curious that alternatively many Vlachs from the North of the Danube settled on the Bulgarians side in 18th century as the Ottomans gave them better conditions than the serfdom in their own country.

Bane
06-18-2016, 02:30 PM
I've tried to identify regions where the most significant haplogroups in Romania have their highest frequencies, so called hot-spots. You are welcome to make comments about the map, i.e write if this makes sense to you or it doesn't.

http://i.imgur.com/YTUtP1r.jpg

Illyro-Vlach
06-18-2016, 08:55 PM
It is curious that alternatively many Vlachs from the North of the Danube settled on the Bulgarians side in 18th century as the Ottomans gave them better conditions than the serfdom in their own country.

That also happened in 18th century Dalmatia and Bosnia where Catholic and Orthodox peasants moved from Venetian-controlled Dalmatia to Ottoman-controlled Western Bosnia due to land shortages in very-arid Dalmatia. The Ottomans needed Christians to till their border lands so as not only to create a buffer by repopulating the border but also to tax them as dhimmis. Booming populations meant that Dalmatia didn't have enough land for everyone so some chose to move over the border and live as serfs in order to survive. These Orthodox peasants were referred to as Morlachs (Mavrovlasi/Black Vlachs) and the Catholics had a lot of Vlach ancestry as well.

eastara
06-19-2016, 02:37 PM
I've tried to identify regions where the most significant haplogroups in Romania have their highest frequencies, so called hot-spots. You are welcome to make comments about the map, i.e write if this makes sense to you or it doesn't.

http://i.imgur.com/YTUtP1r.jpg

I can't see any image on the forum, but opened the link in another window. Indeed, this looks the regions with highest concentration of the mentioned haplogroups. This is explicable as the old population of Wallachia has South Balkan affinities. My personal belief is the core of the Vlachs initially come from the South of the Danube. When they moved North West to Transylvania and North to Moldova they assimilated more and more people, who were not initially Vlachs or Latin speaking, so the local haplogroup prevalence.

Dorkymon
06-19-2016, 09:32 PM
I can't see any image on the forum, but opened the link in another window. Indeed, this looks the regions with highest concentration of the mentioned haplogroups. This is explicable as the old population of Wallachia has South Balkan affinities. My personal belief is the core of the Vlachs initially come from the South of the Danube. When they moved North West to Transylvania and North to Moldova they assimilated more and more people, who were not initially Vlachs or Latin speaking, so the local haplogroup prevalence.

It depends on how South we are talking. It couldn't have been South of the Jirecek line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jire%C4%8Dek_Line) considering that Romanian has about the same quantity of Greek words as any other language from this region.
Thus, in the Southernmost scenario, some Vlachs might have come from around the area of nowadays central Serbia and North Bulgaria.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Bgiusca_Jirecek_Line.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Valaques-Vlachs.jpg

Gravetto-Danubian
06-19-2016, 10:52 PM
I think the 'southern affinities' of Romanians is at least in part due to a migration coming from Balkans, but in the terminal Iron Age .

Dorkymon
08-13-2016, 07:23 PM
New paper with 407 Romanian samples


The mitochondrial DNA makeup of Romanians: A forensic mtDNA control region database and phylogenetic characterization (http://dx.doi.org.sci-hub.cc/10.1016/j.fsigen.2016.06.013)

The Romanian gene pool is mainly composed of West Eurasian lineages H (31.7%), U (12.8%), J (10.8%), R (10.1%), T (9.1%), N (8.1%), HV (5.4%),K (3.7%), HV0 (4.2%), with exceptions of East Asian haplogroup M (3.4%) and African haplogroup L (0.7%).

A total of 407 Romanians buccal swab samples (62.4% male and 37.6% female) were collected from the general population belonging to four major historical regions: Moldavia (n = 105), Transylvania (n = 94), Wallachia (n = 168) and Dobruja (n = 13).

The pattern of mtDNA variation observed in this study indicates that the mitochondrial DNA pool is geographically homogeneous across Romania and that the haplogroup composition reveals signals of admixture of populations of different origin. The PCA scatterplot supported this scenario, with Romania located in southeastern Europe area, close to Bulgaria and Hungary, and as a borderland with respect to east Mediterranean and other eastern European countries.

http://i.imgur.com/cHv9LAH.jpg

eastara
08-13-2016, 08:21 PM
It is very strange this study shows only 31% haplogroup H among Romanians. All Europeans have 40% or even more, it starts to diminish in Western Asia.

michi
09-03-2016, 05:51 PM
Hi and hello, thanks for Vlach and other informations, I would add my information.
First: the name of Vlach is a derivat of Wallhalla, Vallahia, Valach, Vlach.
The german term "valley" is a angle-saxon derivat from germanic "valla".
I cant say, what is the source, but I think it came from a ionian or westanatolian source.

In the germanic worldview was Vallahalla a Paradise for warriors and full tables in the hall of Glory, a valley of roman Gold.
The background is that the Goths the Romans (Valach) pillaged here. We have many big battles with gothic siege and two roman Kings was killed from germans. The romans had payed a great price to different german groups. It is evident that they called the Roman inhabitants in Valahia as Valach.

The second point is, they cooperation with Huns, Attila´s "halla" was in the region Transsylvania and the hunnic royal family had more than one womans from Goths. Gepides, and two Gothic groups had served under Attila as general.
Attila (Etzel) play a important role by the Nibelunga-Saga and other myths. And that is the deepest layer of viking sagas.
Later they defeaded Attilas son.
e.g. Widsith: "I visited Wulfhere and Wyrmhere; there battle often raged in the Vistula woods,
when the Gothic army with their sharp swords had to defend their ancestral seat against Attila's host."

Cinnamon orange
09-03-2016, 07:47 PM
Interesting, about the haplogroups. On my Romainian matches on 23andme I noticed a few C's, which do not show up in the sample.

Dorkymon
09-03-2016, 08:53 PM
Interesting, about the haplogroups. On my Romainian matches on 23andme I noticed a few C's, which do not show up in the sample.

C is definitely on the rare spectrum. For instance, I'm sharing with 55 Romanians on 23andme, you can find their results here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6722-Romanian-23andme/page3), and none of them belongs to mtDNA C.

Cinnamon orange
09-03-2016, 08:59 PM
C is definitely on the rare spectrum. For instance, I'm sharing with 55 Romanians on 23andme, you can find their results here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6722-Romanian-23andme/page3), and none of them belongs to mtDNA C.

Wow. I will see if I can still find their Ancestry compositions and post the variant(s) of C they have. Also I noticed with my Romanian matches, they tend to have around one to three percent or so, of East Asian /NA. Maybe my Vlach ancestors who I get the Romainian connection from were from a more Asian admixed sub region. Though my matches are not all from the same region of Romania, we may have a an ancestral connection to a particular region.

Slavonac
09-04-2016, 03:52 PM
I have one quetion. Someone said that orthodox Vlach (today Serbs) in Coratia and Bosnia came with Turks in 15 16 th century. But how it is possible then that we see Vlach "cantuns" and Vlach names and surenames in middle Bosnia in 12., 13. and 14. century and on stečci in Hercegovina. This is bit confusing because many western Serbs surenames are derivated from these Vlachs names. If anyone has any further information on this subject to answer me I will be very thankfull.

Cinnamon orange
09-04-2016, 04:31 PM
I looked on the new 23andme for my Romanian matches. I have only three that I can see now. I think I had more previously, (they may not be public now), or they may be under my fathers acct.

So out of the three, they are H11, C4b, and C5a. Possibly an end segment cut off, as apparently the new 23andme DNA relatives section is having formatting issues....

Macura
09-04-2016, 05:32 PM
I have one quetion. Someone said that orthodox Vlach (today Serbs) in Coratia and Bosnia came with Turks in 15 16 th century. But how it is possible then that we see Vlach "cantuns" and Vlach names and surenames in middle Bosnia in 12., 13. and 14. century and on stečci in Hercegovina. This is bit confusing because many western Serbs surenames are derivated from these Vlachs names. If anyone has any further information on this subject to answer me I will be very thankfull.

Some of those ''orthodox Vlachs'' eventually became Serbs (like Vasojevići or Kuči etc) but ''Vlachs'' from Bosnia or Herzegovina weren't ''Vlachs'' but only ''vlachs'' (mostly shepherds). DNA of those people (western Serbs) shows pretty much Slavic or Germanic origin. Nothing in common with Romanians or Aromanians.

Dorkymon
09-04-2016, 07:22 PM
I have one quetion. Someone said that orthodox Vlach (today Serbs) in Coratia and Bosnia came with Turks in 15 16 th century. But how it is possible then that we see Vlach "cantuns" and Vlach names and surenames in middle Bosnia in 12., 13. and 14. century and on stečci in Hercegovina. This is bit confusing because many western Serbs surenames are derivated from these Vlachs names. If anyone has any further information on this subject to answer me I will be very thankfull.

Turks have organised the Vlachs around strategic passages, as being shepherds practicing transhumance they knew the geography of the region well.

But Vlachs have been in the Balkans since the Roman Empire. They are naturally the remnants of the indigenous Dacians/Thracians/Illyrians who were romanised/latinised by the Romans.
And even Greeks; in Greece Aromanians are considered to originate from romanised Greeks for instance. So Vlachs might have lived in Bosnia around the 12th century. It would seem stranger if they haven't.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Evolution_of_the_Eastern_Romance_languages_and_of_ the_Wallachian_territories_from_6th_century_to_the _16th_century_AD.jpg


DNA of those people (western Serbs) shows pretty much Slavic or Germanic origin. Nothing in common with Romanians or Aromanians.

What kind of data have you seen? As far as I am aware, Bulgarians and Serbs are closer to Romanians than to East and West Slavs, let alone Germanics.

Slavonac
09-04-2016, 09:01 PM
Some of those ''orthodox Vlachs'' eventually became Serbs (like Vasojevići or Kuči etc) but ''Vlachs'' from Bosnia or Herzegovina weren't ''Vlachs'' but only ''vlachs'' (mostly shepherds). DNA of those people (western Serbs) shows pretty much Slavic or Germanic origin. Nothing in common with Romanians or Aromanians.

Thats what I saw also, I know some people that are "vlachs" from Bosnia they are R1a and R1b and they score very high east european esspecially baltic...

Dorkymon
09-04-2016, 09:44 PM
Thats what I saw also, I know some people that are "vlachs" from Bosnia they are R1a and R1b and they score very high east european esspecially baltic...

R1a and R1b is higher in Romanians than in Serbs. In factm R1b is twice higher in Romanians. I also doubt that any Vlachs and non-Vlachs from the Balkans, except Croats, would score more Eastern European on average.

http://i.imgur.com/lSpyMeG.png

Source (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6563-The-Origin-of-Romanians-(Vlachs)/page6&p=162048#post162048)

But, I wouldn't be surprised if those people are not descendents of authentic Vlachs. Vlachs, just as any other ethnicity, have assimilated others into their culture.

Illyro-Vlach
09-04-2016, 10:14 PM
I have one quetion. Someone said that orthodox Vlach (today Serbs) in Coratia and Bosnia came with Turks in 15 16 th century. But how it is possible then that we see Vlach "cantuns" and Vlach names and surenames in middle Bosnia in 12., 13. and 14. century and on stečci in Hercegovina. This is bit confusing because many western Serbs surenames are derivated from these Vlachs names. If anyone has any further information on this subject to answer me I will be very thankfull.

The Serbs of Croatia all came from the area of today's Southeastern Bosnia, Eastern Hercegovina, today's Montenegro (north, northwest, northeast), and Stari Vlah in Southwestern Serbia. Their migration followed the expansion of the Ottoman Empire (see Serb Historian Corovic on this) where the route was from that area to Mount Ozren in North-Central Bosnia, west to the area between Mrkonjic-Grad and Bosanski Petrovac, and from there north, south, west, and back east.

Hercegovina was a transitory zone and Vlach Katuns were plentiful in that region with both Orthodox and Catholic Vlachs. There were no Vlachs in Bosnia as we know, as Transhumance wasn't practised there but rather the people in Bosnia were farmers so any people there of original pre-Slavonic Balkan stock had already lost their old ways and had assimilated into local cultures as is the Vlach way.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-04-2016, 10:42 PM
^^^
The idea that Bosnia was a "pre-Slavonic refuge" really doesn't find any evidence . I think the theory was created from folklore and romanticism, and seized now by modern nationalists. The same with the idea of Vlachs "roaming in the mountains"

(actual) Vlachs come from western Macedonia, northern Albania and NW Greece. The story of proto-Romanians is a different one

Illyro-Vlach
09-04-2016, 11:16 PM
^^^
The idea that Bosnia was a "pre-Slavonic refuge" really doesn't find any evidence . I think the theory was created from folklore and romanticism, and seized now by modern nationalists. The same with the idea of Vlachs "roaming in the mountains"

(actual) Vlachs come from western Macedonia, northern Albania and NW Greece. The story of proto-Romanians is a different one

Everything that I've read over the years indicates that the various Vlach populations in the Western Balkans were limited to either:

1. Western Macedonia, Northwestern Greece, Albania, Montenegro as heartland
2. along the Dinaric Alps in Hercegovina and the Dalmatian Hinterland in smaller numbers
3. in the towns along the Dalmatian Coast

The first mention of Vlachs in historiography in the Western Balkans is in a Byzantine document in the 11th century when they're mentioned in Epirus (West Pindus) IIRC (I'd have to check my notes). The first mention further up north is in the 13th century in Central Croatia (Lika region, neighbouring Bosnia) where a nobleman took Vlachs under his banner to raid Dalmatian coastal towns and granting them the right to winter pastures on his land (and land that they seize in the hinterland of these coastal towns).

Archaeology and historical documents tell us that transhumance wasn't practiced in Bosnia Proper at least since Roman times, possibly much further in the past. This was farming country, along with some mining. Neighbouring Hercegovina was a different story as the soil is rocky and perfect for grazing large flocks, with upland pastures for the summer seasons. Bosnia itself might have been widely depopulated due to the plagues that struck the Balkans in the Medieval Era. We know that Justinian's Plague hit hard and that the Byzantines needed to repopulate large swathes of the peninsula.

Note: I keep coming across references to the arrival of Vlachs in today's Montenegro and Hercegovina sometime in the 14th century where they supposedly migrated from Thessaly, specifically the Pindus Mountain Range. This is the ur-heimat of the Aroumanians (aka Cincars). I see these references often, but I have yet to see any proof of it. I would kill for some documentation that would indicate that such a large migration took place.

Illyro-Vlach
09-04-2016, 11:24 PM
Addendum:


Note: I keep coming across references to the arrival of Vlachs in today's Montenegro and Hercegovina sometime in the 14th century where they supposedly migrated from Thessaly, specifically the Pindus Mountain Range. This is the ur-heimat of the Aroumanians (aka Cincars). I see these references often, but I have yet to see any proof of it. I would kill for some documentation that would indicate that such a large migration took place.

I forgot to mention that in the case of area encompassing today's Montenegro, some of these older Vlach tribes were displaced by these newer arrivals or were absorbed into their new tribes. Some of the old names (e.g. Mataruga) still exist today.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-05-2016, 01:51 AM
Addendum:



I forgot to mention that in the case of area encompassing today's Montenegro, some of these older Vlach tribes were displaced by these newer arrivals or were absorbed into their new tribes. Some of the old names (e.g. Mataruga) still exist today.

Yes I think that's the hard question which has baffled historians. As a whole, they must have begun moving north in the 10th/ 11th century - when they first appear in sources, around the Byzantine - Samuel wars, and subsequent Byzantine reconquista (?)

Btw, there was a new article (https://www.academia.edu/28202191/Constantinople_and_the_echo_chamber_the_Vlachs_in_ the_French_crusade_chronicles) about the Vlachs, which touches on 'origins'.

I have a couple of Vlach cousins and family relations, both Slavo- & Graecophone

Illyro-Vlach
09-05-2016, 01:59 AM
Yes I think that's the hard question which has baffled historians. As a whole, they must have begun moving north in the 10th/ 11th century - when they first appear in sources, around the Byzantine - Samuel wars, and subsequent Byzantine reconquista (?)

Btw, there was a new article (https://www.academia.edu/28202191/Constantinople_and_the_echo_chamber_the_Vlachs_in_ the_French_crusade_chronicles) about the Vlachs, which touches on 'origins'.

I have a couple of Vlach cousins and family relations, both Slavo- & Graecophone

Yes, I grabbed that Curta piece yesterday but still haven't read it.

As for the hard question: it would really clear things up. Naturally my closest focus is on the Vlachs of the Western Balkans and how much input they had into the makeup of today's South Slavs (other than Bulgars, which is an extended focus of mine, not core) versus the input of the migrating Slavs themselves. This is where Genetics has an opportunity to clear up a lot of questions.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-05-2016, 02:07 AM
Yes, I grabbed that Curta piece yesterday but still haven't read it.

As for the hard question: it would really clear things up. Naturally my closest focus is on the Vlachs of the Western Balkans and how much input they had into the makeup of today's South Slavs (other than Bulgars, which is an extended focus of mine, not core) versus the input of the migrating Slavs themselves. This is where Genetics has an opportunity to clear up a lot of questions.

Yep. For now we have to speculate from modern DNA inferences. Lines like J2b, E-V13, and R1b-Z2103 look like sensible proxies.

Something huge is in planing stage; but it'll be at least 2 years away

Illyro-Vlach
09-05-2016, 02:14 AM
Yep. For now we have to speculate from modern DNA inferences. Lines like J2b, E-V13, and R1b-Z2103 look like sensible proxies.

Something huge is in planing stage; but it'll be at least 2 years away

The strong presence of J2B2* in Aroumanians from the Pindus/Thessaly makes it of great personal interest to me.

Constantine
09-05-2016, 05:04 AM
As a personal aside I have been conducting some business in Romania lately and one individual with whom I've been dealing is of Aroumanian stock by way of Constanta. It seems that many Aroumanians from modern-day Greece were resettled there after WW1.

Maybe that's one of the reasons I saw so many Greeks (and Albanians) get Romania so high up in the Likely Countries of Ancestry list on 23andMe.

Personally, I have some Romanians on my Relative matches too.

Dorkymon
09-05-2016, 11:37 AM
Maybe that's one of the reasons I saw so many Greeks (and Albanians) get Romania so high up in the Likely Countries of Ancestry list on 23andMe.

Personally, I have some Romanians on my Relative matches too.

In my case, I don't get a significant connection with Albanians, but Greeks are quite close in Countries of Ancestry. I was wondering why, so I looked closer at my Greek matches. There's only 2 of them, Antonescu (obv. Romanian) and White (prob. English).

https://puu.sh/r0DYj/028dd360d2.png


http://i.imgur.com/4zH1f8l.png
http://puu.sh/k8xyf/6ecc109567.png
http://puu.sh/k8xyP/ff3c202c5d.png
http://puu.sh/k8xzl/d8a24627be.png
http://puu.sh/k8xzL/f8b74af79e.png

Dorkymon
09-05-2016, 11:38 AM
^^^
The story of proto-Romanians is a different one

I would love to hear your version if you are ready to share.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-05-2016, 12:06 PM
I would love to hear your version if you are ready to share.

I don't have a concrete synthesis yet, but two things seem apparent (1) Romance languages never ceased being spoken in southeastern Europe, even after Roman collapse; & (2) Romanian mix is most similar to Serbs & Bulgarians.

Skerdilaidas
09-05-2016, 04:24 PM
Some of those ''orthodox Vlachs'' eventually became Serbs (like Vasojevići or Kuči etc) but ''Vlachs'' from Bosnia or Herzegovina weren't ''Vlachs'' but only ''vlachs'' (mostly shepherds). DNA of those people (western Serbs) shows pretty much Slavic or Germanic origin. Nothing in common with Romanians or Aromanians.

Kuçi were never recorded to have been Vlahs, they were however mentioned to have been Catholic and Albanian. Vasojevici were catholic as well, but their history is more complex, though, they do have traditions that tie them to few Albanian Clans (genetically so far they don't seem to be related but such tradition didn't develop out if thin air, they must have lived together at one point in time and perhaps even spoke the same language).

Anyway, your clan, assuming you belong to Macura going by your username, would have been a better example for you to use.

Skerdilaidas
09-05-2016, 04:40 PM
^^^
The idea that Bosnia was a "pre-Slavonic refuge" really doesn't find any evidence . I think the theory was created from folklore and romanticism, and seized now by modern nationalists. The same with the idea of Vlachs "roaming in the mountains"

(actual) Vlachs come from western Macedonia, northern Albania and NW Greece. The story of proto-Romanians is a different one

Actually good part of them inhabited what is now eastern Bulgaria, southern Serbia, Kosova and Macedonia. They were pushed down into Greece, specifically into Thessaly-Epirus, and latter scattered around the western Balkans first by the Bulgarian Empire and then by Serbian Empire. When Ottomans started taking over the process intensified, and round this time it wasn't just Vlahs moving around, lots of population shuffling occurred specifically in Montenegro, Kosova, North Albania and Bosnia.

Illyro-Vlach
09-05-2016, 07:09 PM
They were pushed down into Greece, specifically into Thessaly-Epirus....

When did this occur and who pushed them into that region?

Gravetto-Danubian
09-05-2016, 09:11 PM
Actually good part of them inhabited what is now eastern Bulgaria, southern Serbia, Kosova and Macedonia. They were pushed down into Greece, specifically into Thessaly-Epirus, and latter scattered around the western Balkans first by the Bulgarian Empire and then by Serbian Empire. When Ottomans started taking over the process intensified, and round this time it wasn't just Vlahs moving around, lots of population shuffling occurred specifically in Montenegro, Kosova, North Albania and Bosnia.


I'm sure you're right about ottoman era
But I was taking about the 7th century
There's no where else they could have come from

Skerdilaidas
09-05-2016, 09:23 PM
When did this occur and who pushed them into that region?

Most probably their migration started with the arrival of the Slavs, when Byzantines were losing control of these regions, and was intensified during the first and second Bulgarian empire and continued even during Serbian Empire - the last events also caused many Albanian clans to migrated further south, specifically when Serbian empire started to expand into North and Central Albania. Linguistically and historically it makes sense for them to have been the indigenous population of the regions I have mentioned, before Slavs showed up.

Here is a bit on their movements: http://www.cliohworld.net/onlread/5/44.pdf

Skerdilaidas
09-05-2016, 09:54 PM
I'm sure you're right about ottoman era
But I was taking about the 7th century
There's no where else they could have come from

Why not, you think these regions were empty during 7th century? Certainly they were populated, and not by Greeks that much is evident. You have to keep in mind that they were the core population of the cities and urban centres of that region, specifically today's Bulgaria, Southern Serbian, Kosova included, during Roman empire, or else their Latinization can be problematic to explain. Tradesmen, traders and local elite most certainly moved down south into safer zones when Byzantines couldn't offer them any stability in the regions I have mentioned. Only later do we see more independent and warlike clans wonder about.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-05-2016, 10:00 PM
Why not, you think these regions were empty during 7th century? Certainly they were populated, and not by Greeks that much is evident. You have to keep in mind that they were the core population of the cities and urban centres of that region, specifically today's Bulgaria, Southern Serbian, Kosova included, during Roman empire, or else their Latinization can be problematic to explain. Tradesmen, traders and local elite most certainly moved down south into safer zones when Byzantines couldn't offer them any stability in the regions I have mentioned. Only later do we see more independent and warlike clans wonder about.

The entire entire dinaric hinterland was almost wholly depopulated from 7th century - Dacia Rip, Dardania, etc.
Arguably, places like Nis, Skopje; Serdica continued to have a "Roman" populace until the 8th.
But the large bulk of Roman, and proto-Arber, population fell back to the via egnatia route, from Durres to Thrace . This has been confirmed by year's of research by multinational teams

Skerdilaidas
09-06-2016, 02:20 AM
The entire entire dinaric hinterland was almost wholly depopulated from 7th century - Dacia Rip, Dardania, etc.
Arguably, places like Nis, Skopje; Serdica continued to have a "Roman" populace until the 8th.
But the large bulk of Roman, and proto-Arber, population fell back to the via egnatia route, from Durres to Thrace . This has been confirmed by year's of research by multinational teams

I don't agree, there was a decline but not totally depopulated. There are plenty uphill settments that remained inhabited.

I would like to see some of that research. Is there a paper or a book that dwells into it?

Gravetto-Danubian
09-06-2016, 02:32 AM
I don't agree, there was a decline but not totally depopulated. There are plenty uphill settments that remained inhabited.

I would like to see some of that research. Is there a paper or a book that dwells into it?

Skerd, going by what can be dated (ie context -found datable finds, like metal ornaments & decorated pottery, it would seem that virtually none of those upland settlements remains inhabited beyond 610 AD, which in anycase have a short time span (500-600 CE), and were made for predominantly the Byzantine army; not a self-sufficient mountain folk living in seclusion.

There are several papers & books which look into this. Here are some recent ones:

1) "The beginning of the Middle Ages in the Balkans". F Curta

"The evidence of settlements and burials is incontrovertible: during the seventh century, the Balkans, especially the central and northern regions seem to have experienced something of a demographic collapse, with large tracts of land left without any inhabitants. The late antique cities and forts were abandoned and the population moved elsewhere, either as refugees into the coastal areas still under Roman control or as prisoners of war within the Avar qaganate.'

2) "The Central Balkans in the Early Middle Ages: Archaeological Testimonies to Change", by Ivan Bugarski

Speaks of major depopulation, but " On the whole, some finds from the Danube River Basin dating from the late 6th and early 7th century do exist, while objects of the Byzantine material culture from the South Morava River Basin are rarer, more valuable, but also from a later time, dated to the middle and late 7th century. A more precise chronological definition comes from the gold coins of the Emperor Constans II from the Merošina area and Kosovo, a gold ear-ring of the Jánoshida type from the last three decades of the 7th century, in all likelihood a grave find from Naissus, and a matrix for strap-ends from the Aleksinac area from the same period, sites of such finds – primarily Naissus – were populated in the Early Byzantine period, and the fact that the root of the city name has not changed to this day is evidence of some sort of continuity"

Specifically for hilltops

3) Curta again "Horsemen in forts or peasants in villages ?" - argues that all the evidence points to hilltops serving the Byzantine army in the 6th century, with a short life span, not as 'secluded villages for transhumant, self-sufficient groups'

4) "Höhensiedlungen des 6. und 7. Jahrhunderts in Serbien" Mihailo Milinković - also looks at greater Illyricum. All end early 7th century.

5) specifically for Dardania "EARLY BYZANTINE FINDS FROM ChEChAN AND GORNJI STREOC (KOSOVO)". It appears it was very well populated until 6th century. As above, groups stayed probably longer here, exactly how long requires more research, but at least till late 600s, possibly 700s, seems feasible.

6) "Late Antique and Early Byzantine fortifications in Bosnia and Herzegovina (hinterland of the province of Dalmatia)' Spehar

"An attempt by the inhabitants of the Dalmatian hinterland to resist relentless destruction was not, however, successful. Since, in contrast to the coastal area, they were cut off from their homeland, without the influx of fresh strength and money, the inhabitants, separated by isolated posts, slowly disappeared, leaving behind them abandoned buildings. This was the final testimony of the fall of an empire.

7) John Wilkes - "homeland security in the south-west Balkans'
"Despite the huge investment in construction, it seems that most of these strongholds ceased to function in the face of the Slav migrations in the late 6th and early 7th c.,.."

8) For Thrace - a similar date; V DInchev.

We also need to recall, some of the forts, esp. those on the Danube were from 370 to 470 occupied by Goths, who were foederati.
The final end of Byzantine control was not really due to Slavic settlement- which could be accommodated, but Bulgar political expansion from the East.


__________________

If we turn to coastal Dalmatia, Istria, Albania/ Epirus, & western macedonia, the latter 2 areas of the Komani-Kruje culture, the picture is different, with clear continuity into the 9th cc, and history.

Back to your original statement :"Actually good part of them inhabited what is now eastern Bulgaria, southern Serbia, Kosova and Macedonia. They were pushed down into Greece, specifically into Thessaly-Epirus, and latter scattered around the western Balkans first by the Bulgarian Empire and then by Serbian Empire. When Ottomans started taking over the process intensified, and round this time it wasn't just Vlahs moving around, lots of population shuffling occurred specifically in Montenegro, Kosova, North Albania and Bosnia."

I'm sure that's possible, & is certainly what linguists have often proposed. But surely you mean western Bulgaria ?

Illyro-Vlach
09-06-2016, 11:00 AM
Most probably their migration started with the arrival of the Slavs, when Byzantines were losing control of these regions, and was intensified during the first and second Bulgarian empire and continued even during Serbian Empire - the last events also caused many Albanian clans to migrated further south, specifically when Serbian empire started to expand into North and Central Albania. Linguistically and historically it makes sense for them to have been the indigenous population of the regions I have mentioned, before Slavs showed up.

Here is a bit on their movements: http://www.cliohworld.net/onlread/5/44.pdf

Without having read the link is it because of the Jirecek Line?

Skerdilaidas
09-06-2016, 04:33 PM
Without having read the link is it because of the Jirecek Line?

More or less, yes.


Gravetto-Danubian, I will look into the sources you have provided. Regarding Streoc settlemnts, which basically are in Cicavica ranges, central Kosova, I have seen them myself as I did spend great deal of time there in my youth, and according to a friend of mine that has studied all the fortress of Cicavica (there are many up there) they were inhabited until middle ages. Similar scenario with the settlemnts above Kosmac, huge castle with lots of graves up there. The thing is though these regions haven't been studied, for example the Kosmaci settlment is not even mentioned anywhere, only us locals that have been hiking and wondering up there know of them. The Kosmaci castle from my observation is most likely an early Roman settlemnt that was build up there to oversea Metohija (Plateu of Dukagjin) and was in use until the middle ages. Just below the castle there are few gravesites that date to middle ages as well.

michi
09-09-2016, 10:39 AM
I think J2B2* is from Dagestan, it seems these is a Avar genetic. Albania must have more of this.
The older input came from gepides, avar and bolgar and the youngest input from the "transsylvanian saxons" (flandern, rhine, lower saxons). But the important input was from the rest of Byzantine Kingdoms by the osmanian invasion (1335 Bursa, 1365 Erdine, 1453 Konstantinopel). The name and language suggest a own philosopy - we are Rhōmaíoi - and now started her ethnogenese with homeland population to Romanians. Vlad III. had saved her land with drastic measures and broke the power of transsylvanian saxons. The Byzantine peoples have settled stabil in her area around Byzanz for more than 1000 years. They was the only stabil genetic factor in a turbulent time. I think a analyse of microgenetic shows the settlements of Rhōmaíoi from Byzanz and maybe rest of special groups in the danube delta or so.
The new result of ethnogenese replaced the most old genetic. A modern Nationalism based of Dacian Kings is not very realistic.
The Principat Valahiei start around 1330 under the hungars, but the name of Tochomerius sounds more a graeco-romanian. 1347-1353 came the pest and many peoples fleed from the citys in isolate regions of mountains. In that time start the depopulation of byzantinian region. That is the best scenario to descript the "Romania" name in the east world and the "Walachai" name in the west european world. I think "children of Byzantine Empire" what lives in "Walhalla" is enough history for national pride.

Kanenas
09-09-2016, 11:04 AM
Skerd, going by what can be dated (ie context -found datable finds, like metal ornaments & decorated pottery, it would seem that virtually none of those upland settlements remains inhabited beyond 610 AD, which in anycase have a short time span (500-600 CE), and were made for predominantly the Byzantine army; not a self-sufficient mountain folk living in seclusion.
[...]


What caused the depopulation supposedly?

Gravetto-Danubian
09-09-2016, 11:14 AM
What caused the depopulation supposedly?

There is nothing "supposed" about it, officer.
It hit southern Greece too: as demonstrated by several landscape wide archaeological projects by multinational teams. Eg John Bintliff


the Dutch Aetolia Project has brought
remarkable and convincing light to the long-term or
Longue Durée development of Aetolia, not least in the
Medieval and Post-Medieval eras which are here
discussed. As with most parts of Greece, the problem of
the Post-Roman/Early Byzantine era of the 7th - 9th
centuries appears, and one expects that with time we shall
obtain clearer evidence for this poorly-documented phase.
One rather expects that large-scale immigration of highly-
competent Slav farmers (Malingoudis 1991, 1992),
following a widespread depopulation resulting from the
6th century AD Plague and varied Barbarian invasions of
Greece, will have brought significant elements of recovery

To add, there was:

400 years of war and attrition (by 200 AD; most of the army was from the Balkans, because they were better fighters than Italians, quite simply)

Earthquakes
Justinians plague
Byzantine's harsh taxes on peasants
Captivity by Avars, etc

Final straw: the active re-settlement by imperial Admin to coastal Dalmatia, Epirus, Macedonia, certain eastern Greek towns, and Anatolia: consolidation.

With the re-establishment of Byzantine rule; or at least influence; people's appear to have mixed and moved around; as we well know

Dorkymon
09-10-2016, 09:28 PM
Literally stumbled upon this and it seems a bit poorly referenced. However, I was wondering if this might explain the presence of East Asian DNA in virtually all the Romanians that I am sharing with on 23andme (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6722-Romanian-23andme). It kind of seems unlikely for the Mongol rape to have spread so far since they were nomads. So, the East Asian signals must come from a population that has settled properly.





The Blacs were a people mentioned by several medieval authors. They did not leave any written material and their ethnicity is not clear from the contemporary chronicles. They were referred to as Blachorum, Blacorum, Blachos, Blachi. The term Blakumen or Blökumen might refer also to them. The majority of historians identify them with Vlachs but there are authors who suggest a Turkic origin.[1][2][3][4][5][6] According to historical sources, found below, they lived somewhere around the Ural Mountains and the Volga River and then traveled west to the lower Danube area during the Migration Period.

The writings of William of Rubruck[7] from the mid 13th century present some of the Blacs as still living beside the Bashkirs (Pascatir) east of Great Bulgaria and the Volga River. He writes that the Tatars call them Illacs because the Tatars can not pronounce the letter B. Some of the Blacs migrated west with the Huns, Bulgarians and Vandals earlier and settled somewhere in the lower Danube area: from them come those who are in the land of Assan, those provinces from Constantinopole (westward) and which were called Bulgaria, Blackia and Sclavonia were provinces of the Greeks p130.[7] He writes that they were Christians (at least one of the branches).

Geoffrey of Villehardouin in his work De la Conquête de Constantinople (On the Conquest of Constantinople) written after 1207 about the 4th Crusade names Kaloyan of Bulgaria King of the Blacs. Contemporary papal sources name him ruler of Bulgars and Blacs.

Roger Bacon in his work Opus Majus (1265-1267) writes that the Blacs lived close to the Bashkirs, west of the Ural Mountains and now live on the land of Asen, north of the New Bulgars and between New Hungary.

Abulghazi, a Turkistani writer of the 17th century, calls the Volga Bulgarians olaks or ulaks in his Mongolian stories.[8] Similarly, the Osman Turks called iflak their Vlach and Bulgarian rayas (taxpaying serfs), after they occupied the eastern Roman Empire.[9]

The chapters III. and VIII. of Nestor's chronicle also mention Blacs (Влах). (They are coming out of Scythia conquering Bulgarians and Danube Slavs.)[10]

The Persian historian Fazel-ullah Raŝid (Rashid-al-Din Hamadani) also writes about the kara-ulagh people, who were dispelled by the Tatars in 1240, near the river Olt, when they invaded the country Bazaram

Anonymus in his work Gesta Hungarorum written in Latin around 1200 mentions the Blacs several times as living in Pannonia and Transylvania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacorum

Gravetto-Danubian
09-12-2016, 01:40 PM
There's a lot of complex methods now available to analyse populations and individuals. But let's go back to those old days of Y haplogroups PCAs for a second. Can they still us anything ? I think they're still beneficial, especially these days when we have sub-analysed all the major haplogroups, and have aDNA. Autosomal PCAs are too 'smooth' for Europeans which have been admixing for at least 5000 years, and I don't think D-stats, etc, can shed too much light at present.

Whilst many papers, esp. in the 2000s made them, they were often not exhaustive, and didn't include all sub-clades & weighting. This is a draft.


11565

There are the expected clusters - 'East Baltic' (incl Estonians, Latvians, North Russians), East -Central Europe (Belarus to Czechs), west Scandinavia (Sweden, Norway, North Germany), "Atlantic" (British, Irish, Netherlands, Basques), West-Central (Sth Ger, Spain, Norther Italy), and a Mediterranean (Greek Cyp, Sardinian, South Italy) - which isn't actually a cluster. There is obviously a Balkan cluster, but with one more encompassing sub-group including Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs, Macedonians, Romanians, North-Central Greeks, Montenegrins), and a sub-cluster of western Greeks, Albanians & Arumans.
It looks like the most 'integrated' groups are Slovenes, Hungarians & Czechs.



Maybe including world populations will also show something. Then ancient groups can be added, in the future, but some already can start, which will all change the shape.

Cinnamon orange
09-29-2016, 06:15 PM
Dorkymon,

I seem to have more MTDNA shares with Romanians with C haplogroups than you. All my shares have minor East Asian as well. I have wondered about Cumans. I do think it is intriguing my matches seem to have a more maternal C lineages than usual or at least per your shares. It may reflect a variance in where in Romania they are from.

Edit: typo

Dorkymon
10-01-2016, 09:57 AM
Dorkymon,

I seem to have more MTDNA shares with Romanians with C haplogroups than you. All my shares have minor East Asian as well. I have wondered about Cumans. I do think it is intriguing my matches seem to have a more maternal C lineages than usual or at least per your shares. It may reflect a variance in where in Romania they are from.

Edit: typo

Can't really state anything on C apart from what has already been found in researches, some of which were posted on this thread, and my personal experience with 23andme. It seems to have a very minor share, under 1%. So, I don't want to speculate.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if it arrived with the Cumans/Pechenegs and maybe also Tatars and Mongols.

All the Romanian 23andme results that I have managed to find (around 60) do have a minor East Asian influence and they come from different parts of the country. On the other hand Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Serbs and even Hungarians don't look affected. It does seem very strange to me because if the influence came from the East then Ukrainians should score it too. It is also odd that Hungarians and Bulgarians don't register any, considering that around the time Cumans/Pechenegs were roaming Romania, these people should have had at least some East Asian admixture.

Maybe Romanians were not as affected by Slavic migrations as much as Hungarians, Bulgarians and Ukrainians due to some kind of isolation, in the mountains perhaps? Going by haplogroups alone though, Romanians have a larger influx of Slavic like contributions than Bulgarians. So this can mean two things according to me: 1) The East Asian share in Romanians was significantly higher than in its neighbours prior to aforementioned migrations, when they all had some East Asian or 2) The influence is more recent, ie Mongols and Tatars (however considering the written records, Tatars lived only on the coast of Southeastern Romania, plus the nowadays Eastern side of the Republic of Moldova.)

Gravetto-Danubian
10-01-2016, 12:30 PM
Can't really state anything on C apart from what has already been found in researches, some of which were posted on this thread, and my personal experience with 23andme. It seems to have a very minor share, under 1%. So, I don't want to speculate.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if it arrived with the Cumans/Pechenegs and maybe also Tatars and Mongols.

All the Romanian 23andme results that I have managed to find (around 60) do have a minor East Asian influence and they come from different parts of the country. On the other hand Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Serbs and even Hungarians don't look affected. It does seem very strange to me because if the influence came from the East then Ukrainians should score it too. It is also odd that Hungarians and Bulgarians don't register any, considering that around the time Cumans/Pechenegs were roaming Romania, these people should have had at least some East Asian admixture.

Maybe Romanians were not as affected by Slavic migrations as much as Hungarians, Bulgarians and Ukrainians due to some kind of isolation, in the mountains perhaps? Going by haplogroups alone though, Romanians have a larger influx of Slavic like contributions than Bulgarians. So this can mean two things according to me: 1) The East Asian share in Romanians was significantly higher than in its neighbours prior to aforementioned migrations, when they all had some East Asian or 2) The influence is more recent, ie Mongols and Tatars (however considering the written records, Tatars lived only on the coast of Southeastern Romania, plus the nowadays Eastern side of the Republic of Moldova.)

A good summary.
I suspect it's the latter, for if EA is earlier, it should also be detected in Bulgarians , Serbs, Greeks - who'd have similar Palaeo-Balkan ancestry

Dorkymon
10-01-2016, 02:03 PM
A good summary.
I suspect it's the latter, for if EA is earlier, it should also be detected in Bulgarians , Serbs, Greeks - who'd have similar Palaeo-Balkan ancestry

It's really strange because if it is recent, ie middle ages then you would expect the majority of East Asians like to have been females since it doesn't impact Y DNA.
We know that male Mongols/Tatars raped a lot everywhere they plundered, but here it looks like a case of femdom imo :biggrin1: .

Gravetto-Danubian
10-01-2016, 02:20 PM
It's really strange because if it is recent, ie middle ages then you would expect the majority of East Asians like to have been females since it doesn't impact Y DNA.
We know that male Mongols/Tatars raped a lot everywhere they plundered, but here it looks like a case of femdom imo :biggrin1: .

True. Who knows. We still don't know much details about EE apart from the steppe, WHG and Greek Neolithic.

Cinnamon orange
10-01-2016, 07:05 PM
Thanks for your reply.

My thoughts on origin in Romania were more related to my shares MTDNA C heritages, than the overall commonality of minor East Asian in Romanians. I have thought of Cumania in eastern Romanian and Moldavia as a possible source as it was a settled population. My Romanian matches have ancestry from a few different parts of Romanian and one has a link to Moldavia but there may have been a common older tie via location. Which my guess would be in the area of Cumania, Since MTDNA C is more common in my matches than in the overall sample of Romanians.

I don't know about the prevalence of East Asian in Hungarians and Bulgarians. I know both had Cuman elements but it may have been a smaller population than further east. I also recall in Hungary a set of Cuman graves were found to have European MTDNA. It is possible the Cumans who entered Hungary and Bulgaria were more mixed by the time they arrived, which if I recall correctly was at a later date than in eastern Romania and Moldavia.

Dorkymon
10-01-2016, 07:42 PM
Thanks for your reply.

My thoughts on origin in Romania were more related to my shares MTDNA C heritages, than the overall commonality of minor East Asian in Romanians. I have thought of Cumania in eastern Romanian and Moldavia as a possible source as it was a settled population. My Romanian matches have ancestry from a few different parts of Romanian and one has a link to Moldavia but there may have been a common older tie via location. Which my guess would be in the area of Cumania, Since MTDNA C is more common in my matches than in the overall sample of Romanians.

I don't know about the prevalence of East Asian in Hungarians and Bulgarians. I know both had Cuman elements but it may have been a smaller population than further east. I also recall in Hungary a set of Cuman graves were found to have European MTDNA. It is possible the Cumans who entered Hungary and Bulgaria were more mixed by the time they arrived, which if I recall correctly was at a later date than in eastern Romania and Moldavia.

Moldova is the name of the country, Moldavia is a region in Eastern Romania, following the borders of the medieval principality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavia

Cinnamon orange
10-02-2016, 05:49 PM
Moldova is the name of the country, Moldavia is a region in Eastern Romania, following the borders of the medieval principality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavia

Sorry, for my mix up but I assume you got my point and know where Cumania was.

Dorkymon
10-04-2016, 11:07 PM
I think some people may find this interesting.

Etymology of Romanian County names (http://i.imgur.com/LtfR57I.jpg)

Source (https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/55tgnb/the_rich_and_diverse_etymology_of_romanian_county/)

Macura
10-07-2016, 10:01 PM
Turks have organised the Vlachs around strategic passages, as being shepherds practicing transhumance they knew the geography of the region well.

But Vlachs have been in the Balkans since the Roman Empire. They are naturally the remnants of the indigenous Dacians/Thracians/Illyrians who were romanised/latinised by the Romans.
And even Greeks; in Greece Aromanians are considered to originate from romanised Greeks for instance. So Vlachs might have lived in Bosnia around the 12th century. It would seem stranger if they haven't.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Evolution_of_the_Eastern_Romance_languages_and_of_ the_Wallachian_territories_from_6th_century_to_the _16th_century_AD.jpg



What kind of data have you seen? As far as I am aware, Bulgarians and Serbs are closer to Romanians than to East and West Slavs, let alone Germanics.

Misunderstanding i guess....I wasn't talking about autosomal DNA but only yDNA. In general, I2a dinaric S/N and R1a (Z280 +M458) are Slavic, I1 P109 and Z63 are Germanic origin, etc etc. R1b is much more frequently in eastern and southern parts of Serbia and in Montenegro, but very low among western Serbs (so far). Btw, according to Eurogenes, Serbs are much closer to Moldavians and Ukrainians (specially West Ukrainians) than Romanians.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-29-2016, 08:22 AM
Some figures for Romanians:

K6000 BC

Romanian
"Anatolia_Neolithic" 54.15
"Eastern_HG" 18
"Satsurblia" 14.05
"Loschbour" 3.9
"Hungary_HG" 3.45
"Iran_Neolithic" 2.6
"Ulchi" 2.6
"Dai" 1.25

Explanation: At a base level, Romanians are mostly Anatolian Farmer, but with ~ 8% extra WHG, 14% 'CHG', 18% 'EHG'

K4000BC
Romanian
"LBK_EN" 37.75
"Armenia_Chalcolithic" 34.05
"Samara_Eneolithic" 9.3
"Loschbour" 6.8
"Satsurblia" 5
"Ulchi" 3.45
"Eastern_HG" 3.05
"Hungary_HG" 0.35

K3000 BC
Romanian
"Baalberge_MN" 40.3
"Armenia_EBA" 27.75
"Yamnaya_Samara" 18.3
"AG3-MA1" 5.45
"LBK_EN" 4.9
"Ulchi" 2.8
"Hungary_HG" 0.5
..


Throwing in all samples (athos good enough for Davidski to have made a DStat column for):

Romanian
"Armenia_MLBA" 32.7
"Baalberge_MN" 20.35
"Sintashta" 15.9
"LBK_EN" 10.1
"Hungary_LBA" 8.45
"Eastern_HG" 4.8
"Esperstedt_MN" 3.75
"Ulchi" 2.65
"AG3-MA1" 0.85
"Andamanese_Onge" 0
etc...

It's hard to say what it all means. But the Steppe component seems more or less consistent at 15%, perhaps mediated mostly via Sintashta.
Original Anatolian farmer weighs on at 20-40%; and some still difficult to describe 'Armenian' component is present at 20%. The latter is perhaps masking something akin to a distinctive Balkan Bronze Age signature. A 'masking effect' is probably the case for "Baalberg' appearing : an EEF population with WHG admixture - which could have existed anywhere in central Europe).
At this point, I don't know if these combinations are merely best approximations in terms of components or are actually picking the most likely ancestral population.

Naturally, this will get more interesting interesting as we get Iron Age samples, so we can begin to examine which groups/ cultures moderns derive from, and which others also provided input.

Feel free to ask for other Pops (eg neighbours) or combinations you want tested.

Dorkymon
12-29-2016, 01:43 PM
Alright, here is the most extensive collection of Romanian paternal haplogroups to this date. I intend on updating it once I find new data. Feel free to contribute and share.

http://i.imgur.com/lSpyMeG.png

Sources + spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oc6XHFXRaZI4LBs28q4NnESRdCs8_35M8NNxZ5kyhKU/edit#gid=783122462

Tip: All the "doi" links, like this one (dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0041803), can be accessed directly through sci-hub.cc (simply copy and paste the address into the search bar)

Updated with 27 samples from 23andme; those can be found in the other thread (Romanian 23andme). Our Romanian bank is steadily approaching 1000 samples.

http://i.imgur.com/0UdClJp.png

George
12-29-2016, 02:09 PM
Updated with 27 samples from 23andme; those can be found in the other thread (Romanian 23andme). Our Romanian bank is steadily approaching 1000 samples.

http://i.imgur.com/0UdClJp.png

Any "deeper" subclade information available for the I2's and R1a's?

Dorkymon
12-29-2016, 05:31 PM
Any "deeper" subclade information available for the I2's and R1a's?

Check the "Database" sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oc6XHFXRaZI4LBs28q4NnESRdCs8_35M8NNxZ5kyhKU/edit#gid=1100719497) as it contains links to all the sources of data. Not all of them provide subclade information, therefore the groups are kept broad.

Dorkymon
03-08-2017, 05:12 PM
Genetic affinities among the historical provinces of Romania and Central Europe as revealed by an mtDNA analysis (https://bmcgenet.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12863-017-0487-5)

As a major crossroads between Asia and Europe, Romania has experienced continuous migration and invasion episodes. The precise routes may have been shaped by the topology of the territory and had diverse impacts on the genetic structure of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) in historical Romanian provinces. We studied 714 Romanians from all historical provinces, Wallachia, Dobrudja, Moldavia, and Transylvania, by analyzing the mtDNA control region and coding markers to encompass the complete landscape of mtDNA haplogroups.

We observed a homogenous distribution of the majority of haplogroups among the Romanian provinces and a clear association with the European populations. A principal component analysis and multidimensional scaling analysis supported the genetic similarity of the Wallachia, Moldavia, and Dobrudja groups with the Balkans, while the Transylvania population was closely related to Central European groups. These findings could be explained by the topology of the Romanian territory, where the Carpathian Arch played an important role in migration patterns.

The samples analyzed in this study originated from the main historical provinces, Wallachia (n = 226), Dobrudja (n = 46), Moldavia (n = 235), and Transylvania (n = 207). The samples were randomly collected from maternally unrelated subjects with known genealogical information for at least three generations (parents and grandparents).

We observed similar haplotype and nucleotide diversity values for all Romanian provinces, with a slightly lower nucleotide diversity in the Dobrudja population and higher haplotype diversity in Transylvania.

As expected, we were able to classify the huge majority of individuals from the four Romanian populations into nine Eurasian mitochondrial haplogroups (H, U, K, T, J, HV, V, W, and X). The Romanian populations also exhibited sequences that belonged to the most frequent Asian haplogroups (haplogroups A, C, D, I, M, and N) and African haplogroup L. We detected haplogroups A, C, D, and I in the Romanian sample, with an overall frequency of 2.24%, consistent with the frequency in other European populations. We observed a relatively high frequency of Asian haplogroups M and N in Wallachia, Dobrudja, and Moldavia, but not in Transylvania, which also lacked the M haplogroup.

http://i.imgur.com/EkUjfSd.png

To explore the genetic affinities of Romanian populations with neighboring populations, we conducted a PCA based on the frequencies of mitochondrial haplogroups (Fig. 2). The first component (PC) accounted for 17.34% of the total haplogroup variation (30.68%) and separated the European populations into roughly three clusters, with the Romanian provinces forming an individual group with Transylvania close to the center of the axis. The second PC accounted for 13.38% of the total haplogroup variation and did not clearly distinguish populations, although the Romanian provinces formed a single cluster.

https://static-content.springer.com/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs12863-017-0487-5/MediaObjects/12863_2017_487_Fig2_HTML.gif

To further visualize the relationships among Romanian populations analyzed here and European and Near Eastern populations, we estimated pairwise F ST based on the mitochondrial haplogroup frequencies for 19 neighboring populations, including Romanian mtDNA data from previous studies, or 41 populations from all of Europe and the Near East (data shown in Additional file 2: Table S3). For both analyses, the pairwise population F ST values were not statistically significant (p = 0.00000 ± 0.0000, F ST test), indicating no differentiation among Romanian provinces (Additional file 5: Table S4). In a statistical analysis, we only found statistically significant differentiation (p = 0.00000) between these provinces and the Caucasus, Egypt, or Turkey populations.

http://i.imgur.com/jGYwf2I.png

In our mtDNA analysis, we observed a uniform distribution of the majority of haplogroups among Romanian provinces with the populations in the Wallachia, Moldavia, and Dobrudja provinces tended to cluster together within the Slav population based on the MDS scatterplots, while Transylvania was more closely related to Central European populations. We confirmed gene flow from Southwestern Asia based on pairwise population F ST values strictly in the case of Dobrudja, and this result could be easily explained by the greater Asian influence in this area throughout history.

Our findings suggesting a closer affinity of Transylvania to central Europe are supported by the observed haplogroup frequency clines for several European and Asian maternal lineages and could be attributed to different migratory routes shaped by the Carpathian Arch.

Dorkymon
03-08-2017, 05:21 PM
Additional file 8: Figures S3 Interpolation frequency map of haplogroups H, HV, U, K, T, J, N and W

http://i.imgur.com/Hz6IZSv.png

http://i.imgur.com/uLix8r4.png

http://i.imgur.com/ANFTocX.png

http://i.imgur.com/IrnsXxi.png

http://i.imgur.com/zgktLq3.png

http://i.imgur.com/JkiuCav.png

http://i.imgur.com/OhaCXJw.png

http://i.imgur.com/aGDcLbx.png

gravetti
03-08-2017, 06:05 PM
"The current territory of Romania was divided in the Middle Ages (ca. 14th century AD) into three different political structures: Wallachia, Moldavia, and Transylvania. Dobrudja was, during most of its medieval history, under Ottoman rule. During the next several centuries, the historical provinces of Romania were continuously under the suzerainty of the Byzantine, Austro-Hungarian, Habsburg, Ottoman, and Russian Empires. However, these empires had no major demographic impact, except in Transylvania, which underwent a massive colonization by Székelys, Saxons, and Hungarians under the domination of the Kingdom of Hungary between the 10th and 13th centuries [7]."

The ancestors of the Romanians first appeared in the high mountains of South-Transylvania towards the end of the eleventh century. They were shepherds who migrated in from Wallachia and lived in scattered settlements in the mountains. They were distinguished from the roman Catholic Hungarians and Saxons by belonging to the Greek Orthodox religion. Towards the end of the fifteenth century, Transylvania had a population of about 800,000, of whom 65% were Hungarians, the rest split evenly between Saxons and Romanians.
With the Trianon Peace Treaty (1920) that followed World War I, Hungary lost to Romania not only historical Transylvania, but also parts of the Hungarian plain bordering in the north and west, in total disregard of the ethnological realities. Among the inhabitants there were 1.650,000 Hungarians. The newly created Great Rumania, whose national minorities included Germans, Ukrainians, Serbs, Jews, Armenians and others in addition to Hungarians, declared itself a 'national' state, which endeavoured, in all fields of activity, to diminish the influence of minorities - in particular that of the Hungarian minority, judged to be the most dangerous.

http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/faf/toc02.htm

Dorkymon
03-08-2017, 06:12 PM
With the Trianon Peace Treaty (1920) that followed World War I, Hungary lost to Romania not only historical Transylvania, but also parts of the Hungarian plain bordering in the north and west, in total disregard of the ethnological realities. Among the inhabitants there were 1.650,000 Hungarians. The newly created Great Rumania, whose national minorities included Germans, Ukrainians, Serbs, Jews, Armenians and others in addition to Hungarians, declared itself a 'national' state, which endeavoured, in all fields of activity, to diminish the influence of minorities - in particular that of the Hungarian minority, judged to be the most dangerous.

http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/faf/toc02.htm

I could destroy your "statement" that has been refuted long ago in numerous ways. But we are not on such a forum (visit apricity for that).

If you don't want to edit out the political message from your post then I'll ask a mod to delete it altogether. Also, that website hardly constitutes a source and in that "article" none of the statements appear to be sourced. That's garbage and not academic writing.

gravetti
03-08-2017, 06:31 PM
According to the peace treaty of 681, signed after the Bulgarian victory over Byzantines in the Battle of Ongala, Dobruja became part of the First Bulgarian Empire.[32] Shortly after, Bulgars founded near the southern border of Dobruja the city of Pliska, which became the first Bulgarian capital,[33] and rebuilt Madara as major Bulgarian pagan religious centre.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobruja

BalkanKiwi
03-08-2017, 10:04 PM
This is a general warning to refrain from posting articles and web links to information that do not contain appropriate references, and to also refrain from posting political view points that would be suited to a personal blog or a more appropriate section of the forum (The Atrium).

This is per 3.10, 3.13 and 3.20 of the forums Terms of Service. (http://www.anthrogenica.com/faq.php)

Further action will be taken if this is ignored.

Dorkymon
05-01-2017, 04:13 PM
Updated with 27 samples from 23andme; those can be found in the other thread (Romanian 23andme). Our Romanian bank is steadily approaching 1000 samples.

http://i.imgur.com/0UdClJp.png

I know a lot of us wanted to dwell deeper into subclades.
I managed to get my hands on the data from the Romanian Y-DNA Project on FTDNA. They have 166 samples.
Whilst obviously the data from above is more objective (more samples, wider geographic range => better overall representation of the Romanian Y-DNA profile), this one from FTDNA is useful because we can make an educated guess about the subclades contained in the larger database.

For example, we can see in the FTDNA data set that J2 breaks into J2a1 and J2b2. The majority of Romanians who were assigned a J2 subclade fell into J2a1-L26 (10/23). The rest fell into J2b2a-L283 (2/23). Therefore, we can guess to some extent that the unassigned J2-M172 (11/23), will be distributed somewhere along the lines of 9x J2a1 and 2x J2b.

For a full breakdown of the haplogroups, consult the following spreadsheet. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1T1WnvkjnF4ZjeR4fvn8qHq3Xq-BZwsZ08piCacjfaqw/edit?usp=sharing)

http://i.imgur.com/TKzdgb1.png

Dorkymon
05-01-2017, 04:26 PM
I want to hear your opinions on the Romanian J2. Since it is mostly of J2a1 stock, it contrasts with the J2b that dominates the J2 line in the Western Balkans.

In an old blog post by Dienekes (http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2005/12/did-haplogroup-j2a1-originate-in.html), he suggests a Greek origin for J2a1. He also quotes a paper that found it at a high frequency in Romania.


The largest variances, after averaging across the four loci, are found in Continental Greece, Crete and Romania (>0.40),followed by Continental Turkey (0.36) and Italy (0.32). A super-pool consisting of all typed network 1.2 chromosomes from West Asia, except Turkey, produced the low value of 0.31.

This certainly does not seem to be the signature of colonization of the Balkans by pioneer groups of farmers from the east. Moreover, there have been numerous historical attested movements of Balkan peoples into Anatolia, incl. the Phrygians, Thracians, and Greeks. Indeed, by the time that the first Turkic speakers arrived in Anatolia, the peninsula was dominated by Greek and Armenian speakers, both of which had ultimate Balkan origins (the Armenians being Phrygian colonists with ultimate Thraco-Macedonian origins). Obviously these movements affected the genetic composition of the Anatolian population, increasing the diversity of J2a1 lineages there. Hence, the original differential between the Balkans and Anatolia may have been even higher.

However, it could be argued that mobility within the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires may have introduced J2a1 from Anatolia to the Balkans. However, this does not explain the high diversity of J2a1 in Romania and Italy which were little if at all affected by Anatolian populations.

Moreover the idea that J2a1 originated in Greece also explains the coastal distribution of J2 in the Mediterranean, observed by Di Giacomo et al.. It is well-known that Greek colonization was especially maritime.

It also explains why in the Balkans, the western Dinaric regions show little J2: Greeks had few colonies in the Adriatic, whereas colonization of present-day Bulgaria and its Black Sea coast was extensive.

Moreover, Balkan J2 belongs primarily and near-exclusively to clade J2b (old J2e), contrasting greatly with Greeks where both J2b and J2a (mainly J2a1) are present. This, again signifies the differentiation of Greek J2 from Balkan J2, with the former belonging more to the J2a clade.

Furthermore, unlike Slavs of the Balkans that have only a little J2b and almost no J2a, Ukrainians have more J2a than J2b, and more J2 altogether. Unlike the West Balkans, the Ukraine was home to both ancient and more recent Greek colonies and settlements.

J2a is also present in Egypt which was conquered by Macedonian Greeks, as well as Iran, but drops to a small frequency in India, and is there limited to the upper castes. This may reflect its presence in the ancient Indo-Aryans and its survival in the Brahmin caste, or alternatively may be the result of intermarriage between the Bactrian Greek aristocracy and high-class Hindus. In any case, if one accepts that the Indo-Aryans of India originated from an ultimate steppe group which was an outgrowth of the Tripolye-Cucuteni culture of the Balkans, the presence of J2a1 among Brahmins ceases to be a mystery.

In all likelihood, J2a1 originated before the ethnogenesis of the Greeks, and may be associated with multiple population movements from the Greek-Balkan region. However, I believe that it makes better sense to view it as a Balkan-Greek clade than a West-Asian one.
The higher frequency of J2 in southern Italy and Sicily compared to northern Italy, is also explained by this theory, as these regions were colonized by Greeks, whereas northern Italy was not.

Skerdilaidas
05-01-2017, 04:37 PM
7 out of 16 J2b2 samples from the Besarab (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041803)study clearly belong to one of the Albanian J2b2 clusters.

Dorkymon
05-01-2017, 04:39 PM
7 out of 16 J2b2 samples from the Besarab (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041803)study clearly belong to one of the Albanian J2b2 clusters.

They do, but you can't possibly consider those to represent the averages since 9 of those J2b2 belong to Basarab individuals. Therefore, it does imply that the line of Basarabi have something to do with J2b2, but it is not representative of the general population. That's how I read it at least.

Skerdilaidas
05-01-2017, 05:08 PM
They do, but you can't possibly consider those to represent the averages since 9 of those J2b2 belong to Basarab individuals. Therefore, it does imply that the line of Basarabi have something to do with J2b2, but it is not representative of the general population. That's how I read it at least.

I wasn't implying anything, just wanted to point that out. But yeah, J2b2 is over represented among Besarab as the study seems to suggest. It would be nice though to find out how those samples got there etc.

vettor
05-01-2017, 05:18 PM
If you find out what Romanians spoke before Latin, you have at least a first step on finding out who they were originally

Are they Dacians, Getae, Moesians or thracians

Dorkymon
05-01-2017, 05:28 PM
If you find out what Romanians spoke before Latin, you have at least a first step on finding out who they were originally

Are they Dacians, Getae, Moesians or thracians

Doesn't matter much IMO. All of them are a subset of Thracians.

We obviously don't know exactly what the proto-Balkan ancestors of Romanians spoke, but all the theories point to a Thracian people (be it North or South of the Danube), so it must have been one of the Thracian languages.

olive picker
05-01-2017, 07:28 PM
If you find out what Romanians spoke before Latin, you have at least a first step on finding out who they were originally

Are they Dacians, Getae, Moesians or thracians

Illyrians.

Gravetto-Danubian
05-01-2017, 08:42 PM
I want to hear your opinions on the Romanian J2. Since it is mostly of J2a1 stock, it contrasts with the J2b that dominates the J2 line in the Western Balkans.

In an old blog post by Dienekes (http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2005/12/did-haplogroup-j2a1-originate-in.html), he suggests a Greek origin for J2a1. He also quotes a paper that found it at a high frequency in Romania.

I recall that J2b/J2a delineation was broadly held. But we really need some good J2 studies. It's been little at the population level since 2004!

Dorkymon
06-05-2017, 10:01 AM
I recall that J2b/J2a delineation was broadly held. But we really need some good J2 studies. It's been little at the population level since 2004!

I found 15 J2 haplotype samples in a 2010 study about South-East Romania (http://dx.doi.org.sci-hub.io/10.1016/j.legalmed.2010.05.007).
I'll convert them to haplogroups today.

Dorkymon
06-05-2017, 10:41 AM
I found 15 J2 haplotype samples in a 2010 study about South-East Romania (http://dx.doi.org.sci-hub.io/10.1016/j.legalmed.2010.05.007).
I'll convert them to haplogroups today.


I wasn't implying anything, just wanted to point that out. But yeah, J2b2 is over represented among Besarab as the study seems to suggest. It would be nice though to find out how those samples got there etc.

Here is the breakdown of J2 from South-East Romania, according to the above mentioned study (Population data for Y-chromosome haplotypes defined by 17 STRs in South-East Romania)



J2
Subclade


J2b2
M241


J2b2
M241


J2b2
M241


J2a1
Z387


J2a1
L26>Z500


J2a1
L26>Z500


J2a1
Z6046


J2a1
Z6065


J2a1
Z7671


J2a1
Z7671


J2a1
Z7700


J2a1
Z7700


J2a1
PF5191


J2a1
M67>> S25258


J2a1
M67>> S25258



J2a1 - 80%
J2b2 - 20%

So, as mentioned before, the majority of J2 in Romania appears to come from the J2a1 branch.

Dorkymon
06-05-2017, 11:18 AM
104 samples gathered from Bucharest are on their way. They exclude minorities.


Whole EDTA blood samples were collected from 104 unrelated Romanian males, randomly selected among the patients of a Bucharest hospital. All the males selected for the study had a birth place in Romania (different regions from all over the country) and Romanian surnames. Members of the Romanian minority populations living in Romania (Hungarians, Germans etc.) were excluded from the study.

I'll attempt to run them through a haplogroup predictor in order to retrieve the subclade info.

Dorkymon
08-12-2017, 08:55 AM
Some figures for Romanians:

K6000 BC

Romanian
"Anatolia_Neolithic" 54.15
"Eastern_HG" 18
"Satsurblia" 14.05
"Loschbour" 3.9
"Hungary_HG" 3.45
"Iran_Neolithic" 2.6
"Ulchi" 2.6
"Dai" 1.25

Explanation: At a base level, Romanians are mostly Anatolian Farmer, but with ~ 8% extra WHG, 14% 'CHG', 18% 'EHG'

K4000BC
Romanian
"LBK_EN" 37.75
"Armenia_Chalcolithic" 34.05
"Samara_Eneolithic" 9.3
"Loschbour" 6.8
"Satsurblia" 5
"Ulchi" 3.45
"Eastern_HG" 3.05
"Hungary_HG" 0.35

K3000 BC
Romanian
"Baalberge_MN" 40.3
"Armenia_EBA" 27.75
"Yamnaya_Samara" 18.3
"AG3-MA1" 5.45
"LBK_EN" 4.9
"Ulchi" 2.8
"Hungary_HG" 0.5
..


Throwing in all samples (athos good enough for Davidski to have made a DStat column for):

Romanian
"Armenia_MLBA" 32.7
"Baalberge_MN" 20.35
"Sintashta" 15.9
"LBK_EN" 10.1
"Hungary_LBA" 8.45
"Eastern_HG" 4.8
"Esperstedt_MN" 3.75
"Ulchi" 2.65
"AG3-MA1" 0.85
"Andamanese_Onge" 0
etc...

It's hard to say what it all means. But the Steppe component seems more or less consistent at 15%, perhaps mediated mostly via Sintashta.
Original Anatolian farmer weighs on at 20-40%; and some still difficult to describe 'Armenian' component is present at 20%. The latter is perhaps masking something akin to a distinctive Balkan Bronze Age signature. A 'masking effect' is probably the case for "Baalberg' appearing : an EEF population with WHG admixture - which could have existed anywhere in central Europe).
At this point, I don't know if these combinations are merely best approximations in terms of components or are actually picking the most likely ancestral population.

Naturally, this will get more interesting interesting as we get Iron Age samples, so we can begin to examine which groups/ cultures moderns derive from, and which others also provided input.

Feel free to ask for other Pops (eg neighbours) or combinations you want tested.

Also posting my runs with Global 10.

1) Ancients Europe + Asia wide + Slav_Czech Early Medieval
"distance%=0.031 / distance=0.00031"


Dorkymon

Portugal_MN:LugarCanto41 17.65
Slav_Czech:RISE568 17.20
Unetice:I0047 12.40
Minoan_Lasithi:I0073 11.70
Yamnaya_Samara:I0429 11.65
Corded_Ware_Germany:I1534 9.25
LBK_EN:I0054 8.05
Scythian_Pazyryk:I0562 3.60
Scythian_Pazyryk:I0563 3.40
Armenia_EBA:I1633 3.20
Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32 1.25
Satsurblia:SATP 0.35
Minoan_Lasithi:I0070 0.30

2) Ancients Europe + Asia wide
"distance%=0.1058 / distance=0.001058"


Dorkymon

LBK_EN:I0054 27.25
Unetice:I0047 17.45
Afanasievo:RISE507.508.merge 12.55
Unetice:I0115 10.90
Hungary_BA:I1504 9.15
Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32 7.50
Scythian_Pazyryk:I0563 6.55
Minoan_Odigitria:I9128 4.40
Satsurblia:SATP 2.90
Yamnaya_Samara:I0429 1.10
Scythian_AldyBel:I0577 0.15
Portugal_MN:LugarCanto41 0.05
Unetice:I0803 0.05

3) Ancients Central + Southeastern + Eastern Europe + Asia
"distance%=0.1023 / distance=0.001023"


Dorkymon

LBK_EN:I0054 22.45
Unetice:I0047 18.60
Afanasievo:RISE507.508.merge 16.90
Hungary_BA:I1504 14.85
Unetice:I0115 7.40
Scythian_Pazyryk:I0563 6.50
Minoan_Odigitria:I9128 6.25
Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32 5.25
Minoan_Lasithi:I0073 1.80

4) Ancients Europe + Asia wide (Bronze Age, Iron Age)
"distance%=0.1311 / distance=0.001311"


Dorkymon

Unetice:I0047 32.75
Hungary_BA:I1504 25.90
Minoan_Lasithi:I0071 16.45
Scythian_Pazyryk:I0563 7.55
Unetice:I0115 6.40
Portugal_BA:TV32032extra 4.50
England_IA:M1489 2.50
Afanasievo:RISE507.508.merge 2.40
Corded_Ware_Germany:I1534 1.25
Hungary_BA:I1502 0.30

5) Ancients Central + Southeastern + Eastern Europe + Asia (Bronze Age, Iron Age)
"distance%=0.1328 / distance=0.001328"


Dorkymon

Unetice:I0047 31.20
Hungary_BA:I1504 30.00
Minoan_Lasithi:I0071 16.55
Scythian_Pazyryk:I0563 7.40
Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0113 5.55
Corded_Ware_Germany:I1534 4.30
Unetice:I0115 3.50
Hungary_BA:I1502 1.15
Scythian_AldyBel:I0577 0.35

6) Ancients Central + Southeastern + Eastern Europe + Asia (Bronze Age, Iron Age) + Slav_Czech Early Medieval
"distance%=0.058 / distance=0.00058"


Dorkymon

Unetice:I0047 33.30
Slav_Czech:RISE568 21.55
Minoan_Lasithi:I0070 8.10
Minoan_Odigitria:I9128 8.00
Scythian_Pazyryk:I0562 6.10
Minoan_Lasithi:I0074 5.85
Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0806 5.60
Hungary_BA:I1502 5.00
Scythian_Pazyryk:I0563 2.05
Unetice:I0116 1.95
Hungary_CA:I1497 1.50
Corded_Ware_Germany:I1534 1.00

7) Ancients (average) Europe + Asia wide (Bronze Age, Iron Age) + Slav_Czech Early Medieval
"distance%=0.1676 / distance=0.001676"


Dorkymon

Slav_Czech 29.05
Hungary_BA 23.60
Minoan_Lasithi 22.45
Halberstadt_LBA 9.65
Yamnaya_Samara 8.00
Scythian_Pazyryk 7.25

8) Ancients (average) Europe + Asia wide (Bronze Age, Iron Age)
"distance%=0.2591 / distance=0.002591"


Dorkymon

Hungary_BA 42.30
England_IA 20.40
Minoan_Lasithi 15.50
Scythian_Pazyryk 7.60
Halberstadt_LBA 6.30
Yamnaya_Kalmykia 4.45
Satsurblia 2.95
Hungary_IA 0.50

9) Ancients (average) Central + Southeastern + Eastern Europe + Asia (Bronze Age, Iron Age) + Slav_Czech Early Medieval
"distance%=0.1676 / distance=0.001676"


Dorkymon

Slav_Czech 28.95
Hungary_BA 23.75
Minoan_Lasithi 22.45
Halberstadt_LBA 9.55
Yamnaya_Samara 8.05
Scythian_Pazyryk 7.25

10) Ancients (average) Central + Southeastern + Eastern Europe + Asia (Bronze Age, Iron Age)
"distance%=0.2661 / distance=0.002661"


Dorkymon

Hungary_BA 51.80
Minoan_Lasithi 16.65
Halberstadt_LBA 13.40
Yamnaya_Kalmykia 7.90
Scythian_Pazyryk 7.65
Satsurblia 2.60

J Man
08-12-2017, 04:42 PM
Here is the breakdown of J2 from South-East Romania, according to the above mentioned study (Population data for Y-chromosome haplotypes defined by 17 STRs in South-East Romania)



J2
Subclade


J2b2
M241


J2b2
M241


J2b2
M241


J2a1
Z387


J2a1
L26>Z500


J2a1
L26>Z500


J2a1
Z6046


J2a1
Z6065


J2a1
Z7671


J2a1
Z7671


J2a1
Z7700


J2a1
Z7700


J2a1
PF5191


J2a1
M67>> S25258


J2a1
M67>> S25258



J2a1 - 80%
J2b2 - 20%

So, as mentioned before, the majority of J2 in Romania appears to come from the J2a1 branch.

Do the Aromanians/Aromuns have much Y-DNA J2a among them do you know?

Dibran
10-25-2017, 06:40 PM
Illyrians.

It may actually make sense J2a1 being a type of Thracian tribe and J2b2 being Illyrian. Don't historians claim Illyrians and Thracians had common ancestors? Maybe their common ancestor was J2 before the split?

Skerdilaidas
10-26-2017, 03:03 AM
It may actually make sense J2a1 being a type of Thracian tribe and J2b2 being Illyrian. Don't historians claim Illyrians and Thracians had common ancestors? Maybe their common ancestor was J2 before the split?

Nah bro can't be, J2 split into J2a and J2b 28000 years ago according to yfull (https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.07/tree/J2/).

Dibran
10-26-2017, 04:12 AM
Nah bro can't be, J2 split into J2a and J2b 28000 years ago according to yfull (https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.07/tree/J2/).

Ahh I see. Maybe Scythian or Sarmatian? I think I read somewhere the claim that it was. or was that J1? lol

Dumidre
01-22-2018, 10:50 PM
Hello Dorkymon,
I'm ethnic Romanian and I did only one DNA testing with Geno 2.0 Helix.
They found my yDNA to be I-L621 and my mtDNA H6a1a.
Interesting enough, they found my regional ancestry to be: 53% Italy and Southern Europe (higher than the Romanian average), 44% Eastern Europe and 3% Jewish Diaspora...
I see that you collect info on Romanian DNA... I don't know if this information is helpful to your research, but I thought I put it out there for you... Geno 2 gave me a raw data but I don't know yet how to interpret it (maybe you could, I'll send it over to you if necessary)...
I enjoyed your thread about the origin of Romanians...

Greetings,
Dumidre

Fungene
01-24-2018, 01:22 AM
Interesting. What made you choose Geno 2.0 Helix, and what is average for Romanians who tested with Geno 2.0 Helix?
(Perhaps we should start a new thread?)

Dumidre
01-24-2018, 09:14 PM
According to Geno 2.0 Helix:

"Romanian:
Jewish Diaspora 5%
Western & Central Europe 6%
Eastern Europe 48%
Finland & Northern Siberia 2%
Eastern Asia 3%
Central Asia 6%
Asia Minor 9%
Italy and Southern Europe 21%

This reference population is based on people native to Romania. The Southern Europe percentages reflect the strong influence of agriculturalists from the Fertile Crescent in the Middle East, who arrived here more than 8,000 years ago, while the Eastern European component comes partially from the preagricultural population of Europe—the earliest settlers, who arrived more than 30,000 years ago during the Upper Paleolithic period. The East Asian and Central Asian components show that there has been some mixing with groups to the east, and is typical of eastern European populations such as Romanians, Russians, and North Caucasians."

What made me pick Geno 2.0? I didn't know better at that time :)

Fungene
01-25-2018, 12:07 AM
Wow, that's a huge Eastern Europe component. Their description of it is also a bit mysterious.
I read that you can transfer your results gratis to FTDNA? If that's still true, you get two for the price of one. That's pretty good.
You can see my results in the 23andMe thread. I also have LivingDNA and FTDNA results that I have already posted, not to mention results from the K12 Ancient calculator. So many calculators, too little time.
I'll create another thread for sharing our thoughts on testing companies pros and cons for Romanians, since this thread is really about history.

Dumidre
01-25-2018, 03:56 AM
About Eastern Europe: I thought so too; the area covers a vast territory, from Eastern Germany to Greece to Far East, all the way to the border with Asia...

Fungene
01-25-2018, 03:10 PM
About Eastern Europe: I thought so too; the area covers a vast territory, from Eastern Germany to Greece to Far East, all the way to the border with Asia...
My reply to this is on another thread (Romanian test and calculator results). See you there!

Labëria
01-29-2018, 06:41 AM
Carpians are basically an offshoot of the Dacians/Thracians who haven't been latinised. Albanians have more ancestors than this, but one of them could be the Carpians.
Source?

Who is the author of the map?

Labëria
01-29-2018, 06:45 AM
As far as I know, Albanians originate from various populations indigenous to the Balkans, so they probably moved a bit around the peninsula over time, until being pushed to the edge by the Slavs who moved into the region.

Again, some sources are needed to support your claims.

FIREYWOTAN
02-11-2018, 11:34 AM
Relu Cocoş,1,3 Sorina Schipor,4 Montserrat Hervella,5 Petru Cianga,6 Roxana Popescu,7 Claudia Bănescu,8 Mihai Constantinescu,2 Alina Martinescu,9 and Florina Raicu1,2


As a major crossroads between Asia and Europe, Romania has experienced continuous migration and invasion episodes. The precise routes may have been shaped by the topology of the territory and had diverse impacts on the genetic structure of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) in historical Romanian provinces.

We studied 714 Romanians from all historical provinces, Wallachia, Dobrudja, Moldavia, and Transylvania, by analyzing the mtDNA control region and coding markers to encompass the complete landscape of mtDNA haplogroups.

The impact of reading and digesting this article gave me a cause for a pause in how I viewed the process for discovery. thanks for allowing my perspectives.

FIREYWOTAN
02-13-2018, 11:13 AM
thanks for you insights
Just getting started it really helps to have sources and research available especially with the complexity of some of the threads that are being uncovered.

Dorkymon
02-18-2018, 01:03 PM
Some new insights on the movement of people, when looking through the prism of the Y-DNA of modern goats :biggrin1:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-15593-1



Particularly intriguing is the case of Carpathian bucks from Romania which displayed high frequencies (42%) of the Y2A haplotype. This might likely be the consequence of the historical commercial relationships between this region and Turkey, or even the arrival and establishment, during the 8–12th centuries, of Turkic nomad peoples (e.g. pechenegs and cumans) who migrated from the Central Asian steppes to Romania, very likely carrying their own livestock. Lack of arable land, drought and harsh and cold winters explain why nomadic pastoralism has been so prevalent in the Eurasian steppe since prehistoric times. Indeed, the analysis of sheep mitogenomes has revealed the existence of remarkable levels of genetic diversity in the Mongolian Plateau, suggesting that this region constituted one of the main centers of sheep dispersal across Asia. Even nowadays, pastoral nomadism is the main form of land use in Mongolia, with one third of the population living as nomads from livestock breeding.

Fungene
02-18-2018, 02:12 PM
Some new insights on the movement of people, when looking through the prism of the Y-DNA of modern goats :biggrin1:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-15593-1

Interesting, but a bit more context helps: "In goats from Switzerland, the Y1A and Y1B2 haplotypes are clearly predominant (67%), while Y1B1 (15%) and Y1C (18%) are less frequent and Y2A cannot be found. In stark contrast, the most frequent haplotype in Italian and Spanish goats is Y2A (77%) followed by Y1A (18%), whilst frequencies of Y1B and Y1C are almost negligible."
The presence of Pechenegs and Cumans as cause of the presence of goats with haplotype Y2A? The reference to Pechenegs and Cumans is thrown in a bit haphazardly, and is incidental to the purpose of the article. There is not even enough information to affirm correlation.
Ultimately, all modern goats in Europe are descended from Eastern Anatolian domesticates, as the article reminds us.

Dorkymon
06-14-2018, 10:36 PM
Here's some homework for those of us who understand Romanian.
I'll summarise the book after I finish it.

"How Romania has romanianised" (https://www.scribd.com/document/350281615/Cum-s-a-romanizat-Romania-Lucian-Boia) by Lucian Boia (https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian_Boia)


Fungene, can you take a look at pp. 6-7 and share your match strength with the Balkan population from 23andme? You'll know what I'm referring to.

https://i.imgur.com/uNbsuCB.png

They obviously don't register anything for Moldova, because they don't have references from there yet.


Balkan (Albanian, Bosnian and Herzegovinian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Greek, Macedonian, Maltese, Montenegrin, Romanian, Serbian)

Fungene
06-14-2018, 11:35 PM
Hi Dorkymon,
I like the new possibilities and the new way of thinking that DNA opens up. And that's what Anthrogenica is for. I wouldn't bother with Boia.

Drakonarius
06-17-2018, 08:08 PM
Under the ottoman rule the Vlahs or Rumaeni known as old native people of Balkans under many tribe name or region names moved freely thru the land that is why you will find Vlahs in Greece , Albania , Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia.
Under the habsburg rule you will find blahs in Czech, Slovak, Polish lands.
I left ukraine out of conversation this being a new made by soviets country from territories taken from Poland, romania etc , basically the romanians from south -central ukraine are old moldovan - vlah people .
Why are the Vlachs so wide and numerously spread thru central -south Europe?
The only people so wide spread like Vlachs are the germanic speaking nations .

lgmayka
06-17-2018, 10:22 PM
I left ukraine out of conversation this being a new made by soviets country from territories taken from Poland, romania etc
Ukraine has existed for over 1000 years, ever since it was called Kievan Rus. But like most countries, its borders have changed over the centuries. This map shows the Duchy of Ruthenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Hadiach#/media/File:Rzeczpospolita_Trojga_Narod%C3%B3w_w_roku_165 8.png) as defined by the 1658 Treaty of Hadiach. In contrast, this map shows the Kievan Rus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27#/media/File:Kievan-rus-1015-1113-(en).png) at its height.

JeanBanes
06-19-2018, 03:57 PM
Under the ottoman rule the Vlahs or Rumaeni known as old native people of Balkans under many tribe name or region names moved freely thru the land that is why you will find Vlahs in Greece , Albania , Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia.
Under the habsburg rule you will find blahs in Czech, Slovak, Polish lands.
I left ukraine out of conversation this being a new made by soviets country from territories taken from Poland, romania etc , basically the romanians from south -central ukraine are old moldovan - vlah people .
Why are the Vlachs so wide and numerously spread thru central -south Europe?
The only people so wide spread like Vlachs are the germanic speaking nations .

I guess the vlahs were in so many places because, in fact, they were lots of different latinised populations of former the empire. from Pannonia, from Moesia, from Thracia ...

Dorkymon
08-28-2018, 09:46 PM
There is a detailed subclade breakdown for I2a-Din (L621>CTS10228) in Romania and Moldova.

I2a-Din (CTS10228) frequencies out of total Y-DNA:


Romania ~ 28% (consistent with Eupedia, where there are more than 950 samples)


Moldova ~ 26% (21% on Eupedia, where there are only 125 samples)


Subclade level

I-S17250 (TMRCA 1750 ybp):


Romania ~ 9%


Moldova ~ 9.5%


http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-Dinaric-S17250-frequencypopulation-per-country-table-1024x597.jpg


I-Y4460 (TMRCA 2100 ybp):


Romania ~ 9.5%


Moldova ~ 8%


http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-DinB-population-and-frequency-per-country-1024x544.jpg


I-Z17855 (TMRCA 1450 ybp):


Romania ~ 9.5%


Moldova ~ 9%


http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-DinC-population-and-frequency-per-country-1024x522.jpg


Out of these 3,


S17250 peaks by far in Serbo-Croatian speakers


Y4460 is linked to the territory North of the Balkans and is almost absent South of it


Z17855 might indicate a shared Thracian/Dacian/Illyrian or more realistically a proto-Romanian (Vlach) lineage, considering that it has a TMRCA of 1450 ybp



Source (http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-of-dinaric-introduction/)

Dorkymon
08-31-2018, 10:11 PM
Some Dacian/Getae helmets from Romania

Agighiol, 4th century BC

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Aghighiol_Helmet_MNIR_4_2012.JPG
https://i.imgur.com/HDqi3z2.jpg

Peretu, 5th century BC

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/CoifArgintMNIRTEZAUR_2011_05_15.JPG/800px-CoifArgintMNIRTEZAUR_2011_05_15.JPG
http://sebastianstanculescu.ro/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/peretu-coif.jpg
http://sebastianstanculescu.ro/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/peretu-coif-detaliu.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RF-M5P2-NtE/UgPoWs1XPwI/AAAAAAAABoU/4PahcMlF9Ko/s1600/peretu+sec+IV+i.chr.jpg

Iron Gates, 4th century BC

http://sebastianstanculescu.ro/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/porti-fier-coif-ag-765x1024.jpg
http://sebastianstanculescu.ro/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/porti-fier-coif-ag-detalii.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Helmet_of_Iron_Gates_at_Detroit_Institute_of_Arts_ 5_-_2011-03-03.jpg/800px-Helmet_of_Iron_Gates_at_Detroit_Institute_of_Arts_ 5_-_2011-03-03.jpg

Cucuteni-Băiceni

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ranYtcXqQeI/Vq-VFxXN97I/AAAAAAAAMwo/T4oViQpce5A/s1600/1278.jpg[/img[
[img]http://sebastianstanculescu.ro/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Cucuteni.jpg

Coţofeneşti, 4th century BC

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Helmet_of_Cotofenesti_-_Front_Large_by_Radu_Oltean.jpg/800px-Helmet_of_Cotofenesti_-_Front_Large_by_Radu_Oltean.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Helmet_of_Cotofenesti_-_Graphical_Reconstruction_by_Radu_Oltean.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Helmet_of_Cotofenesti_-_Mythological_Scene_on_the_Side_by_Radu_Oltean.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Helmet_of_Cotofenesti_at_the_National_Museum_of_Ro manian_History_2011_-_Mythological_Scene_on_the_Back.jpg/1920px-Helmet_of_Cotofenesti_at_the_National_Museum_of_Ro manian_History_2011_-_Mythological_Scene_on_the_Back.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Helmet_of_Cotofenesti_-_Archaeological_sketch.jpg

Illyro-Vlach
01-17-2019, 02:04 PM
For Dorkymon and the others, my Romanian results from 23andMe:

28469

Dorkymon
01-17-2019, 02:53 PM
For Dorkymon and the others, my Romanian results from 23andMe:

28469

Nice spread, especially that one down South around the administrative core of medieval Wallachia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Târgoviște

Illyro-Vlach
01-17-2019, 03:24 PM
Nice spread, especially that one down South around the administrative core of medieval Wallachia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Târgoviște

Here's what's wild: the project I worked on in Romania not too long ago was in Dambovitza County which is my top result. The people there looked incredibly familiar. I know it's a stretch but this Romanian result has me really, really interested in investigating more, especially why I am getting them.

Are there any histories of migrations to this area from south of the Danube?

Aspar
01-17-2019, 03:58 PM
There is a detailed subclade breakdown for I2a-Din (L621>CTS10228) in Romania and Moldova.

I2a-Din (CTS10228) frequencies out of total Y-DNA:


Romania ~ 28% (consistent with Eupedia, where there are more than 950 samples)


Moldova ~ 26% (21% on Eupedia, where there are only 125 samples)


Subclade level

I-S17250 (TMRCA 1750 ybp):


Romania ~ 9%


Moldova ~ 9.5%


http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-Dinaric-S17250-frequencypopulation-per-country-table-1024x597.jpg


I-Y4460 (TMRCA 2100 ybp):


Romania ~ 9.5%


Moldova ~ 8%


http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-DinB-population-and-frequency-per-country-1024x544.jpg


I-Z17855 (TMRCA 1450 ybp):


Romania ~ 9.5%


Moldova ~ 9%


http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-DinC-population-and-frequency-per-country-1024x522.jpg


Out of these 3,


S17250 peaks by far in Serbo-Croatian speakers


Y4460 is linked to the territory North of the Balkans and is almost absent South of it


Z17855 might indicate a shared Thracian/Dacian/Illyrian or more realistically a proto-Romanian (Vlach) lineage, considering that it has a TMRCA of 1450 ybp



Source (http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-of-dinaric-introduction/)

I-Z17855 is clearly associated with the Slavic speakers as it's downstream of I-Y3120 with TMRCA of only 2200 ybp!
If I-Z17855 is not Slavic, than neither all other subclades downstream of I-Y3120 are not Slavic either because they are too young, which I highly doubt it's true!
So far, the oldest subclades downstream of I-Y3120 are one I-Y3120* from Southern Poland, I-Y4460 with clearly Northern Slavic distribution and predominance as seen on the YFULL tree: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y4460/, and I-Y18331 which is associated with the Greeks.
Of course, I-Y18331 is too young to be of ancient Greek origin and as it's TMRCA shows, it was absorbed in the Greek corpus around 2100 ybp or 100 BC!
The oldest sample so far found upstream of I-Y3120, comes from France, on the border with Germany, TMRCA of 3600 ybp as seen on the YFULL tree: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/!
There is a huge bottle neck from 3600 ybp to 2200 ybp however by this point, it's very clear that the oldest samples and subclades as I-CTS10228*, I-Y3120* and I-Y4460 are found in North-Western Europe and in North-Eastern Slavic speaking countries and it seems almost certainly that I-Y3120 isn't Thraco-Dacian, not to mention even I-Z17855 which is much younger and which you describe as Dacian-Thracian!
I-Z17855 it seems that we can associate it with the Slavic speakers that came from the North-Eastern part of the Balkans and today with the Romanians, Bulgarians and Macedonians!

Dibran
01-17-2019, 04:16 PM
Nice spread, especially that one down South around the administrative core of medieval Wallachia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Târgoviște

Here is Romania for me my father and my mother. The higher hits seem to be coming from my mother. If these maps are to be believed. Are these areas places some Albanians, Vlachs, Greeks wen't to?

There was a Medieval Prince of Moldova, whose paternal ancestor was said to be of mixed Albanian/Vlach heritage from West Macedonia with origin from Epirus. His name is Vasil Lupu. I find it interesting that he shared the same last name and was from a border region. His Albanian ancestor suppoedly migrated to Moldova an he became prince for some 19 years or so. I noticed Vaslui is a hit on the border of Moldova. Wonder if theres a connection?

Me:

https://i.postimg.cc/tRNzSh2n/hk.png

Mom:

https://i.postimg.cc/28H7mCpz/sk.png

Father:

https://i.postimg.cc/RVbKyGfh/rk.png

Dorkymon
01-17-2019, 06:51 PM
Here is Romania for me my father and my mother. The higher hits seem to be coming from my mother. If these maps are to be believed. Are these areas places some Albanians, Vlachs, Greeks wen't to?

There was a Medieval Prince of Moldova, whose paternal ancestor was said to be of mixed Albanian/Vlach heritage from West Macedonia with origin from Epirus. His name is Vasil Lupu. I find it interesting that he shared the same last name and was from a border region. His Albanian ancestor suppoedly migrated to Moldova an he became prince for some 19 years or so. I noticed Vaslui is a hit on the border of Moldova. Wonder if theres a connection?

Me:

https://i.postimg.cc/tRNzSh2n/hk.png

Mom:

https://i.postimg.cc/28H7mCpz/sk.png

Father:

https://i.postimg.cc/RVbKyGfh/rk.png

There is certainly a connection between Vaslui and Moldova. In fact, google Moldavia. The royal part of Molda ia so to speak is still in Romania, known as the Moldova region, whilenthe current Republic of Moldova is a successor to the part that was snatched from Romania by Russia. They are both the same people.
Now with regards to Albanian and Greek settlers, there might have been quite a few. I'll share with you all some chronicles that document the origins of some popular Romanian family names. A lot of them had Greek origins from what I remember.
Several Albanians too, like Arnaut for example. I knew at least a couple myself.

Dibran
01-17-2019, 09:16 PM
There is certainly a connection between Vaslui and Moldova. In fact, google Moldavia. The royal part of Molda ia so to speak is still in Romania, known as the Moldova region, whilenthe current Republic of Moldova is a successor to the part that was snatched from Romania by Russia. They are both the same people.
Now with regards to Albanian and Greek settlers, there might have been quite a few. I'll share with you all some chronicles that document the origins of some popular Romanian family names. A lot of them had Greek origins from what I remember.
Several Albanians too, like Arnaut for example. I knew at least a couple myself.

Cool! yea let me know. If you could inbox those sources it would be great. Part of me wonders if thats the link. A DNA match surnamed "Polocoser" from Moldova I think, claims descent from a ruler who married the daughter of Vasil Lupu Koci/Coci whom potentially may or may not be connected to my family of the same name. Even though my line has a Albanian founder effect, L1029 in general seems more common in Northern Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedonians. Some of it could be absorbed by Vlachs if they did come from Epirus. Ironically enough there is not much of a disparity between the time of settlement of his family in Macedonia and my own migrating to the area. We used to think we came from a clan in Mirdita, but they tested a different lineage. Considering some Albanians with my surname show up in the South and Epirus, perhaps we were just one branch that stayed.

Dibran
01-17-2019, 09:25 PM
There is certainly a connection between Vaslui and Moldova. In fact, google Moldavia. The royal part of Molda ia so to speak is still in Romania, known as the Moldova region, whilenthe current Republic of Moldova is a successor to the part that was snatched from Romania by Russia. They are both the same people.
Now with regards to Albanian and Greek settlers, there might have been quite a few. I'll share with you all some chronicles that document the origins of some popular Romanian family names. A lot of them had Greek origins from what I remember.
Several Albanians too, like Arnaut for example. I knew at least a couple myself.

I just noticed something too that may support this theory. I had 2 potential Bulgarian matches from Razgrad. I say potential because they were samples from a study and were missing one STR that is typical of the Albanian founder effect. They matched 2 of the STRs though!

Sure enough, Vasile Lupus family may have settled in a suburb of Razgrad!!!!

If those Bulgarians from Razgrad are close and match the Albanian founder effect they could potentially be Vasil's family that settled there in the middle ages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasile_Lupu

"The Coci family settled in Wallachia (Țara Rumânească) in the first half of the 16th century.[1] His father, Nicolae (Neculai) Coci was a shopkeeper, the son of Constantin (Coce) and Ecaterina, who originated from Macedonia or Epirus.[2] Nicolae entered Moldavian nobility in 1593.[3] Nikolae was born in Arbanasi. According to different researchers it was a village in modern-day Bulgaria (Arbanasi or Gorno Arbanasi - today a suburb of Razgrad), while some historians claim Arbănaşi (modern Romania).[4]"

George
01-17-2019, 10:07 PM
"So far, the oldest subclades downstream of I-Y3120 are one I-Y3120* from Southern Poland, I-Y4460 with clearly Northern Slavic distribution and predominance as seen on the YFULL tree:" (#190)

Actually the YFULL results (so far) seem to reinforce your basic point in that Z17855 and S17250 seem to be the "genetic brothers" of Y4460 and Y18331 (all four commencing ca. 2200 BP). The two "sons" of Y18331 (viz. A2512 and A10959) also get rolling ca. 2100 BP, and while contemporary A2512 is well represented in Greece there is a "son of A2512" in Russia and quite a few descendants of A10959 in Belarus and Lithuania apart from its Greek branch. There is little doubt on this evidence that "daddy" Y3120 and "sons" Y18331, Y4460, S17250 and Z 17855 originated in the North and were subsequently part of the great Slavic invasions southward.

vettor
01-17-2019, 10:51 PM
I just noticed something too that may support this theory. I had 2 potential Bulgarian matches from Razgrad. I say potential because they were samples from a study and were missing one STR that is typical of the Albanian founder effect. They matched 2 of the STRs though!

Sure enough, Vasile Lupus family may have settled in a suburb of Razgrad!!!!

If those Bulgarians from Razgrad are close and match the Albanian founder effect they could potentially be Vasil's family that settled there in the middle ages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasile_Lupu

"The Coci family settled in Wallachia (Țara Rumânească) in the first half of the 16th century.[1] His father, Nicolae (Neculai) Coci was a shopkeeper, the son of Constantin (Coce) and Ecaterina, who originated from Macedonia or Epirus.[2] Nicolae entered Moldavian nobility in 1593.[3] Nikolae was born in Arbanasi. According to different researchers it was a village in modern-day Bulgaria (Arbanasi or Gorno Arbanasi - today a suburb of Razgrad), while some historians claim Arbănaşi (modern Romania).[4]"

If yiu check the net for neolithic malak preslavet , w
You will fibd ydna on C, G2a and T1a.
Since malak is 80km from razgrad and Razgrad is its capital , you will align these ancient markers with modern one from Razgrad which currently are...
E 38 Percent
G2a 14
I2 10
J2 10
R1a 10
R1b 14
T1a 6

Ancient malak was a boat building area , with ampke food due to bird nesting site in the mountains above.
Its also a place where steppe migration met anatolian migration......see reseach papers

Dibran
01-17-2019, 11:48 PM
If yiu check the net for neolithic malak preslavet , w
You will fibd ydna on C, G2a and T1a.
Since malak is 80km from razgrad and Razgrad is its capital , you will align these ancient markers with modern one from Razgrad which currently are...
E 38 Percent
G2a 14
I2 10
J2 10
R1a 10
R1b 14
T1a 6

Ancient malak was a boat building area , with ampke food due to bird nesting site in the mountains above.
Its also a place where steppe migration met anatolian migration......see reseach papers

Interesting. However, how does it relate to the post?

Vasil Lupus Albanian ancestors only settled in Bulgaria/Romania in the last 500-600 years. So these matches from Razgrad, if they are Lupus descendants/relatives then it could further connect the narrative. I don't see what that has to do with the Neolithic though? Most R1a/I2a in the Balkans is from the Proto-Slavic tribes. The only R1a I know of from paleo-balkans was a Thracian sample in Bulgaria that was Z93, unrelated to modern Z93. As far as I know no modern descendants of that one either.

Sadly no ancient DNA for M458, but even if it wasn't originally Proto-Slavic, it surely expanded with and had a population boom with the Slavic tribes in the early middle ages. Now whether Proto-Slavic was some distantly related northern kin to Dacians or an ethnogenesis formed from various intersecting parts remains to be seen. Personally I think Proto-Slavs were northern neighbors of Dacians whom shared a common ancestor with them via the Proto-Dacian/Proto-Thracian/Proto-Balto-Slavic split, with the Dacians and Thracians settled south, and the Proto-Balto-Slavs north of them. So I imagine Proto-Dacian and Proto-Thracian were similar to Proto-Balto-Slavs prior to migrating to the Balkans and differentiating themselves over the ages.

Dorkymon
01-18-2019, 11:09 AM
I'll post in the coming days a spreadsheet with family name data, as collected by Constantin Sion in Arhondologia Moldovei. The focus is on the origin of family names from the Moldova region in Romania, but naturally it should also partially cover Bessarabia (Republic of Moldova).

Dorkymon
01-18-2019, 11:10 AM
Here's what's wild: the project I worked on in Romania not too long ago was in Dambovitza County which is my top result. The people there looked incredibly familiar. I know it's a stretch but this Romanian result has me really, really interested in investigating more, especially why I am getting them.

Are there any histories of migrations to this area from south of the Danube?

I'll look into this, but it will take some time.

Dibran
01-18-2019, 12:51 PM
I'll post in the coming days a spreadsheet with family name data, as collected by Constantin Sion in Arhondologia Moldovei. The focus is on the origin of family names from the Moldova region in Romania, but naturally it should also partially cover Bessarabia (Republic of Moldova).

awesome. thanks!

Dorkymon
01-18-2019, 01:13 PM
Here is Romania for me

Here's what I have so far in terms of foreign origins from Arhondologia Moldovei (letters "A" and "B").

Note: Tutova = Vaslui nowadays

https://puu.sh/CyAwe/2208897f8e.png

Dibran
01-18-2019, 06:24 PM
Here's what I have so far in terms of foreign origins from Arhondologia Moldovei (letters "A" and "B").

Note: Tutova = Vaslui nowadays

https://puu.sh/CyAwe/2208897f8e.png

Thank you! This list mentions a surname Alexa/Bosie. Not sure if Lupu's line intermarried with them. I read that Lupu's line was intersected through marriage with the following Moldovan noble families: Bucioc, Boulesti, and Abazesti.

Vasil/Basil Lupu's Koci/Coci line was carried on by his son Stefan who married the daughter of Petru Rareș and indirectly via his brother Gavril/Gabriel Coci whose descendant was one "Hatmanul". I tried googling Hatmanul. Who is this individual? Nothing comes up.

I am wondering if there are any today who claim descent from Lupu in either Moldovia, Romania, or Bulgaria(seemingly Razgrad). If there are any who claim descent from the line, and or still bear the surname Coci/Koci or the title Lupu, I would love to test/donate towards them and see if there is a connection. I would imagine if someone from his line matches me on YDNA that Lupu's ancestors line and my own would have split in Macedonia/Epirus 500-600+ years ago.

Dibran
01-18-2019, 06:54 PM
double post

Dorkymon
01-18-2019, 08:45 PM
Thank you! This list mentions a surname Alexa/Bosie. Not sure if Lupu's line intermarried with them. I read that Lupu's line was intersected through marriage with the following Moldovan noble families: Bucioc, Boulesti, and Abazesti.

Vasil/Basil Lupu's Koci/Coci line was carried on by his son Stefan who married the daughter of Petru Rareș and indirectly via his brother Gavril/Gabriel Coci whose descendant was one "Hatmanul". I tried googling Hatmanul. Who is this individual? Nothing comes up.

I am wondering if there are any today who claim descent from Lupu in either Moldovia, Romania, or Bulgaria(seemingly Razgrad). If there are any who claim descent from the line, and or still bear the surname Coci/Koci or the title Lupu, I would love to test/donate towards them and see if there is a connection. I would imagine if someone from his line matches me on YDNA that Lupu's ancestors line and my own would have split in Macedonia/Epirus 500-600+ years ago.

Hmm, I don't have any further info on Lupu's descendants, but maybe these guys (http://www.ghika.net/Contacts.htm) could help you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghica_family

We also have this thing, but I don't know how helpful it will be.
Romania (http://nume.ottomotor.ro/en?search=arnaut&type=text)
Moldova (https://nume.casata.md/index.php?l=ro)

Dibran
01-18-2019, 09:07 PM
Hmm, I don't have any further info on Lupu's descendants, but maybe these guys (http://www.ghika.net/Contacts.htm) could help you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghica_family

We also have this thing, but I don't know how helpful it will be.
Romania (http://nume.ottomotor.ro/en?search=arnaut&type=text)
Moldova (https://nume.casata.md/index.php?l=ro)

Thank you so much dude! thats awesome. I will shoot them an email. Maybe they know something. Do they speak English or should I google translate into Romanian? lol

Dorkymon
01-18-2019, 09:12 PM
Thank you so much dude! thats awesome. I will shoot them an email. Maybe they know something. Do they speak English or should I google translate into Romanian? lol

English should be enough, especially given that some of them from that list seem to have descendants abroad.

Dibran
01-19-2019, 12:18 AM
English should be enough, especially given that some of them from that list seem to have descendants abroad.

Are they familiar with genetics? I kinda got detailed in my email but then I didn't realize whether they were just genealogy based or not lol. hopefully get a response.

Dorkymon
05-22-2019, 09:46 AM
https://i.imgur.com/3UOjB2A.png

Bosniensis
07-06-2019, 06:17 PM
https://i.imgur.com/3UOjB2A.png

Those who adopted Latin culture were the ruling class for some time, after Rome fell ... so called Balkan Romance people were massively segregated, no wonder they are all assimilated, good thing though is that Romania
reinstated Latin (or whatever was left of it)

darkblur
11-03-2019, 08:25 AM
My mother's 23andMe updated results show 0,1% East Asian (Chinese and South-East Asian) ancestry (she is Romanian from Transylvania). At 60% confidence it shows "Chinese Dai". Assuming it's not a mistake, it's pretty strange. Could mongol dna still be present after 800 years? I know that mongol isn't quite South-East Asian, but it's the closest that I can think off.

Waelsch
11-17-2019, 05:41 AM
I am R1b-U152-L2-DF103-FGC4166-BY1020-FGC36273, which seems to be Alpine.

This is supported by the conclusions from linguistics:
https://www.ilr.ro/eveniment/romana-si-dialectele-italiene
&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YFcNSziafY

mihaitzateo
11-17-2019, 04:43 PM
Vlach is a name given by Germanic people to those speaking a Celtic or a Romance language.
For example, Wallons, in Belgium, speakers of Romance or Welsh in Britain, speakers of a Celtic language.
Is quite clear that Romanians are descending from Dacians, mostly and of Gothic tribes, if we consider Gothic tribes, not Dacian tribes.
There is also Slavic input, in Romanians.
Now, what language Dacians have spoken, that is not exactly known.

As for sheep herding, not all Dacians had this custom.
A custom that the Dacians had and was retained at our days Romanians, was to slaughter a pig, near the Winter solstice and to consume lots of pig meat.
https://rolandia.eu/en/blog/romanian-culture-traditions/pagan-customs-during-winter-holidays
Also, the Dacians had as a sacred tree, the Fir tree.

Is quite obvious that Dacians were most close, from a cultural point of view, before geting Latinized, to East Germanics/Gothic tribes, if Gothic tribes were not actually just some North Dacian tribes.
The Dacians had Zamolxes, as some kind of wise man, that was known to have lived in the past, but were not having Odin and Freya or Zeus and Hera, as the Germanics and Romans and Greeks, had.
The resemblance between Odin and Freya on one side and Zeus and Hera, on the other side, is obvious.
Another thing is that the Dacians had some laws and they were not keeping slaves.

The autosomal DNA in Romania is having mostly so called "East Balkanic" admixture, which peaks in Romanians and is mostly seen in Romanians, so is clearly of Dacians origins.
To support the theory that Goths (which might have been just some North Dacian tribes) have given plenty of DNA to Romanians, is the fact that lots of Romanians score some more Northern admixture, which is not East Slavic, neither Scandinavian.

Another custom that was retained from Goths was to keep hens and eat lots of chickens, especially roosters.
The hens are kept because they make eggs and they produce offsprings :) .
The Gothic treasure found in Romania, "Closca cu puii de aur", is also having some golden Hens, in it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietroasele_Treasure
There are Goths mentioned to have revereed their ancestors,so from this point of view, another resemblance to the Dacians, since Zamolxis was a Dacian hermit, according to what I have heard.

Sure, on the land of Romania were not only South and North Dacian tribes, Slavs also settled, especially in the North of Romania, as it seems and there were also Iranic speaking tribes, of Sarmatians and Scythians, Turkic tribes (which left few DNA), Romans, South Europe Celts.

That was in the past.
Current language is mostly Romance (75% of the words, or more) with some Slavic borrowings, after, some fewer Greek borrowings etc.

Romanians from our days mostly eat poultry or pork and sheep cheese, drink wine or beer, take a car (most of them),as soon as they can, buy a house (highest ownership rate of houses from Europe is in Romania), prefer to work in the office or in a factory and not so much in agriculture.
All young Romanians speak English, as foreign language, fewer speak French and even fewer German.
The favorite countries for migration, for Romanians are in this order:
Italy, Spain, Germany, England.
In Italy, most Romanians migrated in the North and after, in the center.
In South Italy, are few Romanians.
Also, are around 1 million Romanians, in the US.

mihaitzateo
11-18-2019, 08:46 PM
Under the ottoman rule the Vlahs or Rumaeni known as old native people of Balkans under many tribe name or region names moved freely thru the land that is why you will find Vlahs in Greece , Albania , Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia.
Under the habsburg rule you will find blahs in Czech, Slovak, Polish lands.
I left ukraine out of conversation this being a new made by soviets country from territories taken from Poland, romania etc , basically the romanians from south -central ukraine are old moldovan - vlah people .
Why are the Vlachs so wide and numerously spread thru central -south Europe?
The only people so wide spread like Vlachs are the germanic speaking nations .
Romanian speaking people from Balkans are South Dacians that were received as Foederati by Roman Empire.
They cluster to Romanians on YDNA except they have lower I2-DIN.
Their culture is Romanian,not Slavic,neither Albanian.
Most likely most moved from North of Danube South of Danube, before the Slavic migration from 600-700 AD.

huck_
12-17-2019, 04:33 PM
I came across this forum in my searches. I noticed this mistake repeated on an on, and so I decided to register. Vlachs seem to be regarded by many here as one ethnicity. They're not. They form a language group, but they are as ethnically diverse as the Balkans in general are. In addition to this, Vlachs have fought to impose the so-called "Vlach law" which regulated shepherding and border policing in the Balkans and the Habsburgic empire. This law has created a social class - vlachs - that included many other people beside the Balkan Romance groups.

Attempting to explain the origin of Romanians based on the history of Balkan Romance groups is a fool's errand. Romanians have formed as an ethnicity north of Danube between 6th and 10th century, independently of the Vlach groups sandwiched between (recently migrated) South Slavs and Greeks. Genetically, Romanians have more in common with Bulgarians and Serbs than with Aromanians or Dinaric Morlachs. The migration hypothesis on the origin of Romanians assumes that Vlachs were one ethnicity, which has never been the case. Romance Balkans included many different tribes that were latinized: Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian, etc, each with their own subgroups.

Migration to and from Balkans has always existed, but there's no historical account that it has been more one-directional, towards present day Romania, between 6th to 10th centuries. If anything people would have wanted to move towards the Byzantine borders, away from the steppe migrations.

mihaitzateo
12-22-2019, 01:14 PM
I came across this forum in my searches. I noticed this mistake repeated on an on, and so I decided to register. Vlachs seem to be regarded by many here as one ethnicity. They're not. They form a language group, but they are as ethnically diverse as the Balkans in general are. In addition to this, Vlachs have fought to impose the so-called "Vlach law" which regulated shepherding and border policing in the Balkans and the Habsburgic empire. This law has created a social class - vlachs - that included many other people beside the Balkan Romance groups.

Attempting to explain the origin of Romanians based on the history of Balkan Romance groups is a fool's errand. Romanians have formed as an ethnicity north of Danube between 6th and 10th century, independently of the Vlach groups sandwiched between (recently migrated) South Slavs and Greeks. Genetically, Romanians have more in common with Bulgarians and Serbs than with Aromanians or Dinaric Morlachs. The migration hypothesis on the origin of Romanians assumes that Vlachs were one ethnicity, which has never been the case. Romance Balkans included many different tribes that were latinized: Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian, etc, each with their own subgroups.

Migration to and from Balkans has always existed, but there's no historical account that it has been more one-directional, towards present day Romania, between 6th to 10th centuries. If anything people would have wanted to move towards the Byzantine borders, away from the steppe migrations.
Have anyone did Autosomal testing to Aromanians?
Aromanians had common to Romanians (or latinized Daco-Goths) a lot of folk customs.
Bulgarians are mix of Thracians and Goths, with some Slavic input, because only the rulling class was Slavs.
And Yugos, mix of South Dacians with Goths, but with lower Gothic input than Romanians, this is why they are so close to Romanians on Autosomal DNA testing.
All Bulgarians,Serbians,Romanians score near Central European people, not near Albanians.
There are Romanians that are scoring quite NE Europe.
However, from an ethnical point of view Aromanians are very close to Romanians, because one thing is Ethnicity and another thing is Ancestry.

Dorkymon
01-28-2020, 01:01 AM
I thought I'd run through the Y-DNA of my matches from Romania and Moldova on 23andme.

Here's the latest update:

Romania



Y-DNA
Number
Percentage


R1a (R-CTS1211, R-CTS3402, R-L260, R-M417, R-YP417, R-Z92, R-Z93)
16
32%


R1b (R-A431, R-L23, R-L48, R-U152, R-Y5587
7
14%


E-V13
6
12%


I2a (I-CTS5966, I-S17250, I-Z16983)
6
12%


J2a1 (J-L243, J-L70, J-M67)
4
8%


I1
3
6%


I2a-Germanic
2
4%


J1 (J-CTS5368)
1
2%


J2b2 (J-L283)
1
2%


N-M178
1
2%


G-L30
1
2%


H-M2914
1
2%


C-F1756
1
2%



Moldova



Y-DNA
Number
Percentage


E-V13
3
33%


J2a1 (J-L25, J-L26)
2
22%


I2a (I-S17250)
1
11%


I2a-Germanic
1
11%


J2b2 (J-L283)
1
11%


R1a (R-M417)
1
11%




By the way, for regional breakdown of Y-DNA in Romania, feel free to consult this compendium (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oc6XHFXRaZI4LBs28q4NnESRdCs8_35M8NNxZ5kyhKU/edit?usp=sharing) that I'm maintaining.

Scipio_Africanus
02-10-2020, 11:44 AM
Why is it taken for granted that all Vlachs are ethnic Romanian?

Dibran
02-10-2020, 06:46 PM
I thought I'd run through the Y-DNA of my matches from Romania and Moldova on 23andme.

Here's the latest update:

Romania



Y-DNA
Number
Percentage


R1a (R-CTS1211, R-CTS3402, R-L260, R-M417, R-YP417, R-Z92, R-Z93)
16
32%


R1b (R-A431, R-L23, R-L48, R-U152, R-Y5587
7
14%


E-V13
6
12%


I2a (I-CTS5966, I-S17250, I-Z16983)
6
12%


J2a1 (J-L243, J-L70, J-M67)
4
8%


I1
3
6%


I2a-Germanic
2
4%


J1 (J-CTS5368)
1
2%


J2b2 (J-L283)
1
2%


N-M178
1
2%


G-L30
1
2%


H-M2914
1
2%


C-F1756
1
2%



Moldova



Y-DNA
Number
Percentage


E-V13
3
33%


J2a1 (J-L25, J-L26)
2
22%


I2a (I-S17250)
1
11%


I2a-Germanic
1
11%


J2b2 (J-L283)
1
11%


R1a (R-M417)
1
11%




By the way, for regional breakdown of Y-DNA in Romania, feel free to consult this compendium (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oc6XHFXRaZI4LBs28q4NnESRdCs8_35M8NNxZ5kyhKU/edit?usp=sharing) that I'm maintaining.

I didn't include the first names. I had no one for Moldova. They're all for Romania. Figured I would share(maybe you don't have some of these).

Romania:

Popescu - R-M417

Nemes - I-S17250- Aiud, Alba County, Romania

Noll/Patrascu - H-M52 - Vâlcea County, Romania

Antonescu - R-L23

Alexandru - J-M241

Semergiu - - I-Z17855 - Brăila County, Romania

Jurca - R-M512

Banescu - J-M241 - Bucharest, Romania

Activopol - I-Z17855

Voica - R-M512 - Valea Stanciului, Dolj County, Romania

Mihailovici - I-CTS5966

Prepelita - R-M417 - Călărași County, Romania

Varga - N-M178 - Oradea, Bihor County, Romania

Ionescu - G-L30

Cornea - G-Z18064.2

Lupu - E-V13 - Bunești, Bunesti, Brașov County, Romania

Magdea - I-S17250

Apostol - R-M417

Georgescu - I-Z17855 - Bucharest

Andrei - I-PF3892 - Dorobanţi, Nicseni, Botoșani County, Romania

Astalus - R-CTS1843 - Gâmbuţ, Comuna Bichiș, Județul Mureș, Romania

Dorkymon
02-10-2020, 07:47 PM
Why is it taken for granted that all Vlachs are ethnic Romanian?

We have a significant minority of Aromanians, specifically machedoni, and they are considered part of the Romanian ethnos by everyone.
I've read that in Greece they are considered part of the Greek ethnos.

Dorkymon
02-10-2020, 07:54 PM
I didn't include the first names. I had no one for Moldova. They're all for Romania. Figured I would share(maybe you don't have some of these).

Romania:

Popescu - R-M417

Nemes - I-S17250- Aiud, Alba County, Romania

Noll/Patrascu - H-M52 - Vâlcea County, Romania

Antonescu - R-L23

Alexandru - J-M241

Semergiu - - I-Z17855 - Brăila County, Romania

Jurca - R-M512

Banescu - J-M241 - Bucharest, Romania

Activopol - I-Z17855

Voica - R-M512 - Valea Stanciului, Dolj County, Romania

Mihailovici - I-CTS5966

Prepelita - R-M417 - Călărași County, Romania

Varga - N-M178 - Oradea, Bihor County, Romania

Ionescu - G-L30

Cornea - G-Z18064.2

Lupu - E-V13 - Bunești, Bunesti, Brașov County, Romania

Magdea - I-S17250

Apostol - R-M417

Georgescu - I-Z17855 - Bucharest

Andrei - I-PF3892 - Dorobanţi, Nicseni, Botoșani County, Romania

Astalus - R-CTS1843 - Gâmbuţ, Comuna Bichiș, Județul Mureș, Romania

Thank you, I'll check with mine.