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Celtarion
03-03-2016, 12:43 AM
Some good news from France!

The DNA of the Dukes of Normandy will be examined by a Norvegian's Society! Permission has been granted to take a sample in order to determine the DNA of Richard I who died in 996 and Richard II who died in 1026 and to prove that the Dukes of Normandy were related to the Viking leader named Rollo.

dna-hunters-unopened-viking-grave-in-normandie (http://norwaytoday.info/culture/dna-hunters-unopened-viking-grave-in-normandie/)



Norwegian researchers have finally got to open the tomb of the Viking leader Rollo’s descendants. They will find out whether Rollo was the same Rollo as Rollo from Møre. In that case the British royal family originaed from Norway.

A Norwegian-led delegation was in Normandy on Monday and opened the sarcophagus of two of Rollo’s descendants. The aim is to put an end to a centuries-long debate: Was Rollo Danish or Norwegian?

– We have been working to get this investigated in about seven years, so to finally get collected material to test DNA was huge historian and project initiator Sturla Ellingvåg of the foundation Explico said.

Rollo was the founder of Normandy, Count of Rouen and great great great grandfather of William the Conqueror, who is the ancestor of the English royal house. While Norwegian-Icelandic historical documents and historians have argued since the Snorre Sagas that Rollo and Rollo are one and the same person, the Danish historians believed that he came from Denmark. Rollo, the son of Rognvald was exiled from Norway and was said to have settled in France.
Plucked out teeth

In January the French authorities and the French church granted the Norwegian application to open the tomb of Rollo’s grandson and great-grandson, Duke Richard the fearless and son Duke Richard the good. The tomb is a sarcophagus in the floor of a monastery in Fécamp. When they opened the grave Monday, researchers found, among other things, a lower jaw with eight teeth in the tomb of Richard the good:

– The key is to find teeth, for the DNA of the teeth may, even all these years, be sufficent for a DNA analysis. Two forensic experts from Norway and Denmark snatched five of his teeth and those teeth are now being sent to the Institutes of Forensic Medicine in both of the countries for analysis, Chairman of Samlerhuset and The Norwegian Mint, Ole Bjørn Fausa says.

A result of the analysis will probably be available in the autumn and will be presented in cooperation with the French authorities. So it remains to be seen whether the results indicates Denmark or Norway.
The small sarcophagi at first glance looks like they only accommodate toddlers, but Fausa explains:

– When they were buried in a floor, it was a matter of space. The most important thing was to preserve the skeleton. We do not know how this was done here, but it was common to either cut the bodies into pieces or boil them so the meat loosened from the bones. This meant that the the sarcophagus didn’t have to be longer than a femur, which is the longest bone in the body, Fausa says.
Rare event

Fausa describes the atmosphere at the tomb as an amazing experience:

– As far as we know this is only the second time since the war that a king’s tomb has been opened in France. Just being a part of it, and find the skeletons in there, it was exciting, solemn and unreal at the same time.

In the work process, he also found that he is a 35th generation descendant of Rollo.

– Of course it enhances this experience, to know that this was my ancestors, Fausa says.

If Rollo and Rollo proves to be the same person, it will be of historical significance:

– If the British royal family originates from the northwest coast it will, among other things, change the notion that the Norwegian royal family is young, with origins from the British and Danish, says Fausa.

GTC
03-03-2016, 05:34 AM
This Explico Project has been in the works for a long time. They have had to battle the French bureaucracy step by step to get to this point. Kudos to Explico for their determination and diplomacy.

http://explicofund.org/predictions-for-2016/

castle3
03-03-2016, 07:00 AM
The piece sates that Fausa believes he is a descendant of Rollo. This begs the question: 'Fausa, what's your haplogroup?'

GTC
03-03-2016, 07:35 AM
The piece sates that Fausa believes he is a descendant of Rollo. This begs the question: 'Fausa, what's your haplogroup?'

Good question. Why not ask him directly:

https://www.facebook.com/people/Ole-Bj%C3%B8rn-Fausa/1157974881

https://www.linkedin.com/in/olebjornfausa

castle3
03-03-2016, 07:39 AM
I don't do Facebook of Linkedin, GTC. Let' hope someone who does will ask the necessary! Any volunteers?

Jean M
03-03-2016, 08:23 AM
It is unlikely that Rollo of Normandy was from Norway. Extract from Ancestral Journeys:


Rollo's origin is much disputed. Rollo's grandson, Richard I of Normandy, commissioned the cleric Dudo in 994 to write Rollo's biography. Dudo therefore had access to family recollections within living memory of Rollo. He makes a distinction between the Scandinavian peninsula and Denmark and tells us that Rollo was Danish. He recounts that Rollo negotiated with a Christian king of the Angles called Alstem to over-winter there before raiding the Franks. This may refer to the Viking Guthrum, king of East Anglia (d. 890), who took the baptismal name Athelstan. The only earlier source for Rollo's origins is a French chronicler who refers to Rollo as the son of Ketill, presumably the same Ketill whom he names as the chief of the Viking raiders against Gaul between the Seine and the Loire in 888. Later Norwegian authors with every motive to claim the Norman dynasty as their own preferred to identify Rollo as Hrolfr, the son of a Norwegian earl whose kin figure in the sagas of the conquest of Orkney. This Norwegian wealth of detail has appealed to historians ever since, but Rollo is more likely to be a Latin version of Hrollaugr than Hrolfr, and the source closest in time and place to the event is generally more reliable.

rozenfeld
03-03-2016, 08:36 AM
Question: How would they tell whether Rollo is Danish or Norwegian? Are they going to compare Richard's sample with modern Danes and Norwegians? Or they going to sequence 10-th century samples from Denmark, Sweden and Norway?

MitchellSince1893
03-03-2016, 01:43 PM
Question: How would they tell whether Rollo is Danish or Norwegian? Are they going to compare Richard's sample with modern Danes and Norwegians? Or they going to sequence 10-th century samples from Denmark, Sweden and Norway?

That's a tall order. Autosomally, there isn't going to be any large segments that far back, and even if you did find a segment of say 7cM, ~50% of those are false positives. http://isogg.org/wiki/Identical_by_descent


Even if you are connected to a person who came over on the Mayflower in 1620 (about 13 generations ago), chances are that you did not inherit any of this person’s DNA.https://medium.com/@dl1dl1/face-it-dna-cannot-find-all-your-relatives-f68089b8e1e9#.57fr2tfbe

Going back 14 generations, there's close to zero percent chance that you inherited any significant size segments from a particular ancestor. That's not to say you don't have a significant segment from any of your +16000 ancestors 14 generations back (12 great grandparents), but rather, the odds that you have a block from 1 particular ancestor this far back.
https://gcbias.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/prob_zero_blocks_chr.png

Personally, I've only been able to confirm 9 generations back segments.

On the Y-dna side, as the Y tree is further defined you could eventually identify a Danish vs Norwegian branch of a particular haplogroup, but odds are we won't be there when the results come out. But maybe we will get lucky and Rollo's relatives will match a present day individual.

What will be interesting is if he's some unexpected atypical Scandinavian y-dna haplogroup. i.e. not R1a, R1b, I, or N

Click on this image below for Denmark vs Norway Y haplogroup percentages from http://herebedragons.weebly.com/y-dna.html
8033

R.Rocca
03-03-2016, 08:13 PM
The piece sates that Fausa believes he is a descendant of Rollo. This begs the question: 'Fausa, what's your haplogroup?'

Even if he suspects that he is, I would hope that they are not allowing him to handle the remains in any way shape or form.

GoldenHind
03-03-2016, 09:45 PM
The piece sates that Fausa believes he is a descendant of Rollo. This begs the question: 'Fausa, what's your haplogroup?'

I note he doesn't say he is a direct descendant of Rollo in the male line, which would be extremely unlikely.

A further comment about the absurd question posed of whether Rollo is the same person as Rollo. Rollo is the latinized name given him by the French. No one knows what his real Norse name was. The man in the Icelandic sagas is called Hrolf Ganger. Others have suggested on phonetic grounds, as noted by Jean above, that his name was more likely to have been Hrolaugr, as the name Hrolfr was likely to have been turned into Rannulf and not Rollo. The noted historian of Normandy David Douglas proposed Hraithulfr or Hrithulf.

George Chandler
03-03-2016, 09:52 PM
To find out if he was Norwegian or Danish you would have to do a proper isotope analysis and compare that with his descendants and combine that with SNP results.

George

George Chandler
03-03-2016, 09:54 PM
My guess is that he may have been from both what is now Denmark and Norway depending on the time period.

Theconqueror
03-04-2016, 12:09 AM
It is a miracle, politically speaking.

MitchellSince1893
03-04-2016, 02:05 AM
It is a miracle, politically speaking.

On the French thread you said he was R1b. Have they made an announcement?

GTC
03-04-2016, 06:33 AM
I don't do Facebook [or] Linkedin, GTC.

That makes two of us.


Let'[s] hope someone who does will ask the necessary! Any volunteers?

Indeed.

castle3
03-04-2016, 09:05 AM
On the French thread you said he was R1b. Have they made an announcement?

If they have said he's R1b, then I suppose we're none the wiser as it was present in large numbers in Denmark, in particular.

Helgenes50
03-04-2016, 09:25 AM
My guess is that he may have been from both what is now Denmark and Norway depending on the time period.

South Sweden was Danish

GTC
03-04-2016, 09:38 AM
On the French thread you said he was R1b. Have they made an announcement?

Looks to me like they are joking among themselves. It's all speculative at present until the tests are done and the results carefully examined before making any announcements -- as was the case with Richard III.

ffoucart
03-04-2016, 09:56 AM
Looks to me like they are joking among themselves. It's all speculative at present until the tests are done and the results carefully examined before making any announcements -- as was the case with Richard III.
Exactly

Heber
03-04-2016, 12:09 PM
They would have a better chance of getting high quality DNA from the Petrous (inner ear bone) if available rater than teeth from the lower jawbone.

"Optimal Ancient DNA Yields from the Inner Ear Part of the Human Petrous Bone"

"Our results confirm that dense bone parts of the petrous bone can provide high endogenous aDNA yields and indicate that endogenous DNA fractions for part C can exceed those obtained for part B by up to 65-fold and those from part A by up to 177-fold, while total endogenous DNA concentrations are up to 126-fold and 109-fold higher for these comparisons."

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0129102

George Chandler
03-04-2016, 03:37 PM
South Sweden was Danish

Another interesting point for sure.

The isotope analysis will pin it right down. The question of Rollo's ancestry is a different story but it's excellent they are finally willing and able to do the testing. There are so many different claims about male different lines originating from Rollo and his descendants.

George

MitchellSince1893
05-09-2016, 02:30 AM
I was doing some research on a project I'm working on when I found a genealogy tree going back to "Hrollager Hrollaug Ragnvaldsson 846–932 BIRTH 846 AD • Nord-Trondelag, Norway DEATH 932 AD • France.

aka Rollo.

My focus was finding the earliest known paternal line ancestor for a R-Z142 individual using ancestry.com. In this particular tree I found the 17th century ancestor in question; but paternal line kept going...and going...and going.

Obviously the odds of this tree being accurate are pretty close nil. For those not familiar, ancestry.com is full of trees with lots of mistakes.

For those with access to ancestry.com here it is http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/78599830/family/pedigree

In the highly unlikely event that this tree is actually correct, then Rollo would be R-FGC12378 (~8 SNPs down from U152...not exactly known to be a Nordic paternal haplogroup). But if you turns out to be true you heard it hear first :biggrin1:

I guess we will know the accuracy of this tree in few months :)

George Chandler
05-09-2016, 11:03 PM
It would be fascinating if he was U152+ because I haven't seen any good evidence yet that would indicate that he would be. The ones in the running that I've seen don't include U152 so it would be a shocker.

You never know for certain until the the remains are tested.

George

George Chandler
05-09-2016, 11:04 PM
It would be fascinating if he was U152+ because I haven't seen any good evidence yet that would indicate that he would be. The ones in the running that I've seen don't include U152 so it would be a shocker.

You never know for certain until the the remains are tested.

George

George Chandler
08-13-2016, 03:49 PM
Maybe someone else can confirm this..Rollo's remains were previously tested and found to be inconclusive or is that true or false? I was under the understanding they previously obtained a sample from him which was or is being used for isotope testing.

If they are only testing his grandson and his great grandson and they don't have a sample from Rollo then they can't establish if Rollo grew up (or lived) in Denmark, Norway or both? Both his grandson and great grandson were born and lived in Normandy for their entire lives. That alone won't help to establish if Rollo was in fact Danish or Norwegian.

I see a lot of planned testing for Rollo but I don't see any concrete released results or that he was in fact tested himself.

George

GTC
08-13-2016, 04:13 PM
Maybe someone else can confirm this..Rollo's remains were previously tested and found to be inconclusive or is that true or false? I was under the understanding they previously obtained a sample from him which was or is being used for isotope testing.

It's reported on English language sites that Rollo's remains are unusable for DNA testing. There may be more details about how that has been concluded on French/Danish/Norwegian language sites.


If they are only testing his grandson and his great grandson and they don't have a sample from Rollo then they can't establish if Rollo grew up (or lived) in Denmark, Norway or both? Both his grandson and great grandson were born and lived in Normandy for their entire lives. That alone won't help to establish if Rollo was in fact Danish or Norwegian.

Naturally Rollo's male descendants will carry his Y haplotype and SNPs. Exactly what DNA signature would enable the scientists to make a determination between a Danish or a Norwegian origin is a mystery to me, however that ability underpins the purpose of the project so I guess they've managed to convince a lot of people over the last 5 years or so that they can arrive at a conclusion.

George Chandler
08-13-2016, 04:51 PM
I'm "guessing" then that although the DNA extraction was not viable at the time they may have obtained isotope results.

The only other thing which may show up would be if Rollo, son and grandson were possibly importing cured elk meat from their homeland as part of their diet and the great grandson wasn't?

That would be sort of stretching it so I would think so they must have a viable isotope sample from the previous test of Rollo and are doing the comparison of his descendants.

George

Northman
11-23-2016, 08:17 AM
Does anyone have news on Rollo's DNA? Apparently the results are to be released today! However, I read somewhere that the ancient samples were dated to be much older than Rollo and no DNA was extracted from the remains anyway.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-23-2016, 08:24 AM
If unsuccessful, then it's just really bad luck. Medieval DNA should have up to 60% yield, I've been told

GTC
11-23-2016, 09:04 AM
I read somewhere that the ancient samples were dated to be much older than Rollo and no DNA was extracted from the remains anyway.

Can you try to recall where you read that, because I can find no such report.

evon
11-23-2016, 10:43 AM
Can you try to recall where you read that, because I can find no such report.

The remains where from BC and 700CE, you can use google translate or chrome browser translate to read it in English:
https://www.nrk.no/mr/skjelettsjokk-for-norske-forskere-pa-vikingjakt-1.13240798

For some reason the page dosnt work very well in my chrome browser, so maybe this link is better (I see it is due to some of the "sharing" icons being enlarged):
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrk.no%2Fmr%2Fskjelettsjokk-for-norske-forskere-pa-vikingjakt-1.13240798&edit-text=&act=url

GTC
11-23-2016, 12:52 PM
The remains where from BC and 700CE, you can use google translate or chrome browser translate to read it in English:
https://www.nrk.no/mr/skjelettsjokk-for-norske-forskere-pa-vikingjakt-1.13240798

For some reason the page dosnt work very well in my chrome browser, so maybe this link is better (I see it is due to some of the "sharing" icons being enlarged):
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrk.no%2Fmr%2Fskjelettsjokk-for-norske-forskere-pa-vikingjakt-1.13240798&edit-text=&act=url

Thanks for that reference.


These skeletons have nothing with Rollo to do. Skeletons in the sarcophagus is in fact much older, one from 250-300 years before our era and the other from around the year 700, that is, before the Viking era, says historian and project initiator Sturla Ellingvåg Foundation explico said.

...

After seven years of demand granted the French authorities and the French church in January the Norwegian application to open the grave. In a sarcophagus in the floor researchers found including a lower jaw with eight teeth.

...

The project participants were very surprised when the skeletons proved to be much older than the people they supposedly were to belong, although it is not entirely uncommon for the contents of the graves do not match the name of.

...

Since skeletal remains were so old and has been stored in blybeholdere it was not possible to retrieve DNA and thus find out where they might have come from.


What a major disappointment for the Explico team after all that tedious lobbying of the French government and church authorities to get permission to open the sarcophagus.

jdean
11-23-2016, 01:41 PM
According to google translate a 'blybeholdere' is a lead container

rms2
11-23-2016, 01:48 PM
According to google translate a 'blybeholdere' is a lead container

Interesting. In German, lead is Blei, which of course looks like a very near cognate of bly, and then you have the root holder in that word, which is pretty obviously identical to the English holder. Neat word. Sorry for the digression.

ADW_1981
11-23-2016, 02:23 PM
So basically the program being aired tonight in Europe will basically say....nothing? Or will be whole world of disappointment?? Seriously? Talk about anticlimactic.

George Chandler
11-23-2016, 05:01 PM
Here is a link in English:

http://norwaytoday.info/culture/skeletal-shock-norwegian-researchers-viking-hunting/

George Chandler
11-23-2016, 05:16 PM
I find the whole container issue affecting the results (or lack thereof) strange. Doubtful that Rollo's remains will be tested now.

vettor
11-23-2016, 05:57 PM
I find the whole container issue affecting the results (or lack thereof) strange. Doubtful that Rollo's remains will be tested now.

Since William of Normandy is R1b with snp R-DF13 which is just downstream of R-L21..........then they should test Rollo to determine if Rollo is the great great grandfather of William

jdean
11-23-2016, 06:09 PM
Since William of Normandy is R1b with snp R-DF13 which is just downstream of R-L21..........then they should test Rollo to determine if Rollo is the great great grandfather of William

Where are William of Normandy's DNA results published ?

evon
11-23-2016, 06:48 PM
I find the whole container issue affecting the results (or lack thereof) strange. Doubtful that Rollo's remains will be tested now.

Well it is not Rollo's remains, as they are too old for that..so regardless of the lead contamination, the results would not be relevant to Rollo's ancestry..

JonikW
11-23-2016, 08:15 PM
Well it is not Rollo's remains, as they are too old for that..so regardless of the lead contamination, the results would not be relevant to Rollo's ancestry..

I believe Rollo himself was buried in Rouen cathedral. I've certainly passed his tomb there many times. I'm sure permission to test would be impossible to obtain of course.

George Chandler
11-23-2016, 10:40 PM
Since William of Normandy is R1b with snp R-DF13 which is just downstream of R-L21..........then they should test Rollo to determine if Rollo is the great great grandfather of William

I haven't seen any evidence which convinces me 100% regarding his haplogroup (or the other male line ancestors). I have four "very interesting" haplogroups (I1a, R1a, R-Z251 & R-S1051) which make wonder..all for different reasons and these are the best contenders in my opinion. There was a lot of talk that it was L1335 and I honestly haven't seen anything which would make me think that (though doesn't mean it isn't true).

George Chandler
11-23-2016, 10:45 PM
Well it is not Rollo's remains, as they are too old for that..so regardless of the lead contamination, the results would not be relevant to Rollo's ancestry..

Yes but the idea that it had a negative influence on the DNA extraction is what interested me. If they said they did the initial carbon 14 test and discovered there wasn't a match then didn't attempt DNA extraction I understand that.

George Chandler
11-23-2016, 10:53 PM
It sort of begs the question about the location of the real remains if these were in fact not the descendants of Rollo. Was it later anti Norman sentiment that led to the disposal of their remains and replacement of the remains of Frankish nationals? Seems like a pretty prominent grave for an oops moment? Not like a medieval cemetery losing the headstones and people doing a double burial?

The boiling of the remains to de-flesh them for the burial process (even if boiled with older remains) should not have affected the carbon14 results.

Is Rollo even Rollo in his tomb at Rouen???

JonikW
11-23-2016, 11:04 PM
It sort of begs the question about the location of the real remains if these were in fact not the descendants of Rollo. Was it later anti Norman sentiment that led to the disposal of their remains and replacement of the remains of Frankish nationals? Seems like a pretty prominent grave for an oops moment? Not like a medieval cemetery losing the headstones and people doing a double burial?

The boiling of the remains to de-flesh them for the burial process (even if boiled with older remains) should not have affected the carbon14 results.

Is Rollo even Rollo in his tomb at Rouen???

Good question. I remember Richard the Lionheart's effigy is there too. His heart was interred there but I think it was removed during the Revolution. A similar thing happened with the Conqueror's tomb at Caen. Nevertheless, that's still a moving place to visit if you're interested in the history of our corner of the world.

ADW_1981
11-24-2016, 09:25 PM
What ever happened to the program that aired Wednesday night in Europe? Nothing at all to take away? I'm assuming at least one person would have watched it.

rob r
11-25-2016, 08:09 PM
What about the test at winchester cathedral, any news there?

GTC
11-26-2016, 04:48 PM
What ever happened to the program that aired Wednesday night in Europe? Nothing at all to take away? I'm assuming at least one person would have watched it.

Broadcast on what and where? Is there an online replay facility?

George Chandler
07-22-2017, 04:59 PM
I find it interesting that as of late last year they were going to perform the strontium isotope testing on the elder skeleton thought to be from the 3rd century B.C but it's been very quiet since then. There were no artifacts in the grave thought to be the descendants of Rollo..so without DNA...without isotope testing..what makes them even mention that they think this was the remains of a Celtic Cheiftain with no evidence other than radiocarbon dating which is no real evidence in itself? Seems a bit strange to me.

George

spruithean
07-22-2017, 10:37 PM
Broadcast on what and where? Is there an online replay facility?

I would definitely hope their is an online replay facility. It would certainly be interesting to watch.