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jdean
03-25-2018, 12:35 PM
That sounds tasty. I keep meaning to cook laver bread and oatmeal cakes, fried in bacon fat and served with a fry-up. Maybe next weekend...

That's the usual way of using laverbread in SE Wales, I grind the oats down a bit with a pestle and mortar before adding the laverbread

JonikW
03-25-2018, 10:20 PM
That's the usual way of using laverbread in SE Wales, I grind the oats down a bit with a pestle and mortar before adding the laverbread

Thanks. Will give it a go.

rms2
03-26-2018, 12:56 PM
I was eating a slice of cheddar cheese a couple of days ago when, to my surprise, I discovered that it was imported from Wales. The label said, "Collier's Welsh Cheddar, Product of Wales".

It was really good. My wife bought it at Wegman's.

03-26-2018, 01:36 PM
I was eating a slice of cheddar cheese a couple of days ago when, to my surprise, I discovered that it was imported from Wales. The label said, "Collier's Welsh Cheddar, Product of Wales".

It was really good. My wife bought it at Wegman's.

Yeah I remember that one, if you haven't already try and get the Extra Mature one. very strong, but for me at least is the best.

jdean
03-26-2018, 02:58 PM
Yeah I remember that one, if you haven't already try and get the Extra Mature one. very strong, but for me at least is the best.

Was my wife's favorite until she came down with a bizarre intolerance not just to all dairy but also beef.

Phoebe Watts
03-26-2018, 04:27 PM
Once we get past Welsh Cakes; Bara Brith; Laverbread and Cawl or Lobscows, it does get a bit limited doesn't it?

The emphasis is really on high quality fresh local produce and the food export marketing campaigns seem to have been quite successful recently.

This website might be interesting:

http://www.wales.com/recipes

jdean
03-26-2018, 04:47 PM
Once we get past Welsh Cakes; Bara Brith; Laverbread and Cawl or Lobscows, it does get a bit limited doesn't it?

The emphasis is really on high quality fresh local produce and the food export marketing campaigns seem to have been quite successful recently.

This website might be interesting:

http://www.wales.com/recipes

Don't forget Welsh Rarebit : )))))

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-26-2018, 04:49 PM
I was eating a slice of cheddar cheese a couple of days ago when, to my surprise, I discovered that it was imported from Wales. The label said, "Collier's Welsh Cheddar, Product of Wales".

It was really good. My wife bought it at Wegman's.

Yes I buy that locally here. In days gone by supposedly a collier's lunch was often an apple (or onion) and a lump of cheese. Good to hear Welsh products are on sale in the USA.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-26-2018, 04:58 PM
Although not exclusively Welsh, Faggots are very popular in Wales and still widely available, usually eaten with peas and potatoes in a gravy. This is an old recipe and basic, there are others.

http://www.geniuskitchen.com/recipe/welsh-faggots-197539

jdean
03-26-2018, 05:15 PM
Although not exclusively Welsh, Faggots are very popular in Wales and still widely available, usually eaten with peas and potatoes in a gravy. This is an old recipe and basic, there are others.

http://www.geniuskitchen.com/recipe/welsh-faggots-197539

They're a SW British thing I think, I've bought them in Bristol but couldn't find them anywhere when I lived in London save a stall that sold a variety apparently popular in Yorkshire that were like Brain's Faggots, not the same : )

Anyway I'm with you, I always associate them with Wales too : )))

rms2
03-26-2018, 07:05 PM
I was eating a slice of cheddar cheese a couple of days ago when, to my surprise, I discovered that it was imported from Wales. The label said, "Collier's Welsh Cheddar, Product of Wales".

It was really good. My wife bought it at Wegman's.

I made a slight mistake. I said my wife bought Collier's at Wegman's. She actually bought it at Lidl. She corrected me this afternoon when I mentioned it to her.

Here the word faggots means something entirely different from what it means in Britain.

jdean
03-26-2018, 07:27 PM
I made a slight mistake. I said my wife bought Collier's at Wegman's. She actually bought it at Lidl. She corrected me this afternoon when I mentioned it to her.

Here the word faggots means something entirely different from what it means in Britain.

Similar confusion potentally exist for those trying to bum a cigarette : )

castle3
03-27-2018, 02:36 PM
Two nations separated by a common language!

Phoebe Watts
03-27-2018, 05:26 PM
To all of you Welsh (or mostly Welsh) folks,

I'd be very interested to see where you plot on some tests going around; in particular Lucasz's K36 and Davidski's Northern Europe PCA. Global 25 (formerly Global 10) would be pretty cool to see too if any of you have that.

Thanks!

If you are interested, Lucasz has just posted my report on his thread - post #4173

JonikW
03-27-2018, 09:04 PM
If you are interested, Lucasz has just posted my report on his thread - post #4173

How do we see the thread Phoebe? I'm interested.

sktibo
03-28-2018, 04:31 AM
If you are interested, Lucasz has just posted my report on his thread - post #4173

Awesome, the PCA pretty much nailed it in your case. What I found particularly interesting was the similarity via other methods between yourself, Ireland, and Scotland - your PCA was even slightly shifted towards the Germanic/Scandinavian side of things rather than the French in the same way that the Irish are. I think it's important to note because people sometimes theorize that the Welsh are quite different than the Scots or the Irish (Which is fair because in PCA graphs done by the IDA and the POBI the Welsh are off in their own direction, and they split off from the rest very early in the analyses...) however this is indicating that they are more or less of the same "Stuff" that the Gaels are made up of. I'm not sure what to make of that, as I think all of these analyses are well done.

I'd be really interested to see where you fall on the Northern Europe PCA by Davidski.

Phoebe Watts
03-28-2018, 09:39 AM
How do we see the thread Phoebe? I'm interested.

Yes - here is the link

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-K36-Eurogenes-(Unofficial)-Oracle-and-other-ancestry-tools&p=371023&viewfull=1#post371023

Phoebe Watts
03-28-2018, 10:03 AM
Awesome, the PCA pretty much nailed it in your case. What I found particularly interesting was the similarity via other methods between yourself, Ireland, and Scotland - your PCA was even slightly shifted towards the Germanic/Scandinavian side of things rather than the French in the same way that the Irish are. I think it's important to note because people sometimes theorize that the Welsh are quite different than the Scots or the Irish (Which is fair because in PCA graphs done by the IDA and the POBI the Welsh are off in their own direction, and they split off from the rest very early in the analyses...) however this is indicating that they are more or less of the same "Stuff" that the Gaels are made up of. I'm not sure what to make of that, as I think all of these analyses are well done.

I'd be really interested to see where you fall on the Northern Europe PCA by Davidski.

Where do I find the Northern Europe PCA?

These results correspond to some of my other tests and calculators. Scotland features in my LivingDNA result and I look Irish in many of the calculators. I'll look at some Irish results to understand that Dutch element - Germanic/ Scandinavian? It is odd to see the distance from Brittany if only because our languages are so close and we have some shared history.

sktibo
03-29-2018, 02:59 AM
Where do I find the Northern Europe PCA?

These results correspond to some of my other tests and calculators. Scotland features in my LivingDNA result and I look Irish in many of the calculators. I'll look at some Irish results to understand that Dutch element - Germanic/ Scandinavian? It is odd to see the distance from Brittany if only because our languages are so close and we have some shared history.

That Dutch / Scandic element is due to the first British and Irish Bell Beakers, who when compared to modern populations are very Germanic/Scandinavian-like. It looks like over time the modern Insular Celts became less "Nordic" in their genetic type, probably due to the influx of another group. From what I've seen the Bretons aren't really that much like the Welsh but are similar to the Cornish. I'm also surprised to see the Welsh appearing to be in the same group as the Q Celtic speaking peoples rather than the other two P Celtic peoples. This, if true, could be because the Welsh retained an older Insular genetic signature (as suggested by the POBI) and it seems very likely (almost a certainty) that Q Celtic is the older form of Insular Celtic languages, so this may be why the Welsh are closer to the Gaelic speakers than the other P-Celtic speakers. Wales, with mountainous terrain and being away from the coasts which are closest to continental Europe make me think it isn't unlikely that they might have had less intermixing with incoming groups than a group like the Cornish would have had

Northern Europe PCA: https://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html

Jessie
03-29-2018, 07:36 AM
Awesome, the PCA pretty much nailed it in your case. What I found particularly interesting was the similarity via other methods between yourself, Ireland, and Scotland - your PCA was even slightly shifted towards the Germanic/Scandinavian side of things rather than the French in the same way that the Irish are. I think it's important to note because people sometimes theorize that the Welsh are quite different than the Scots or the Irish (Which is fair because in PCA graphs done by the IDA and the POBI the Welsh are off in their own direction, and they split off from the rest very early in the analyses...) however this is indicating that they are more or less of the same "Stuff" that the Gaels are made up of. I'm not sure what to make of that, as I think all of these analyses are well done.

I'd be really interested to see where you fall on the Northern Europe PCA by Davidski.

Hi Sktibo - Just interested in your comments as always.

Both myself and my mother had the report done by Lucas. We both plot in the same position.

Edit: Just looked at Phoebe's plot and both myself and mother are also in that half way position but more north of Phoebe. (Suppose should discuss this on Lucasz's thread).

avalon
03-29-2018, 04:23 PM
To all of you Welsh (or mostly Welsh) folks,

I'd be very interested to see where you plot on some tests going around; in particular Lucasz's K36 and Davidski's Northern Europe PCA. Global 25 (formerly Global 10) would be pretty cool to see too if any of you have that.

Thanks!

Do these tests cost much and what data do they require? I have only tested with LivingDNA. May be something I will do in the summer when I have a bit more time on my hands!

avalon
03-29-2018, 04:25 PM
Awesome, the PCA pretty much nailed it in your case. What I found particularly interesting was the similarity via other methods between yourself, Ireland, and Scotland - your PCA was even slightly shifted towards the Germanic/Scandinavian side of things rather than the French in the same way that the Irish are. I think it's important to note because people sometimes theorize that the Welsh are quite different than the Scots or the Irish (Which is fair because in PCA graphs done by the IDA and the POBI the Welsh are off in their own direction, and they split off from the rest very early in the analyses...) however this is indicating that they are more or less of the same "Stuff" that the Gaels are made up of. I'm not sure what to make of that, as I think all of these analyses are well done.

I'd be really interested to see where you fall on the Northern Europe PCA by Davidski.

Phoebe is a very good person to test too as IIRC her ancestry is mostly from Anglesey (a strong Welsh speaking area) and from SW Wales I think, so high amounts of Welsh ancestry in her case.

The only thing I would add re. differences between Irish, Welsh and Scottish is that projects like POBI, IDA, the Insular Celtic one, they used FineStructure to detect the differences so things like genetic drift via isolation get picked up and the Welsh and Irish look far apart in these studies.

It might be that when Irish and Welsh are plotted on a European wide PCA or against AncientDNA samples then they are more similar. It wouldn't surprise me, given high levels of Celtic ancestry in Ireland, Wales, high levels of L21, the fact that Celtic languages are either still spoken today or at least were widely spoken until fairly recently.

JonikW
03-29-2018, 06:42 PM
That Dutch / Scandic element is due to the first British and Irish Bell Beakers, who when compared to modern populations are very Germanic/Scandinavian-like. It looks like over time the modern Insular Celts became less "Nordic" in their genetic type, probably due to the influx of another group. From what I've seen the Bretons aren't really that much like the Welsh but are similar to the Cornish. I'm also surprised to see the Welsh appearing to be in the same group as the Q Celtic speaking peoples rather than the other two P Celtic peoples. This, if true, could be because the Welsh retained an older Insular genetic signature (as suggested by the POBI) and it seems very likely (almost a certainty) that Q Celtic is the older form of Insular Celtic languages, so this may be why the Welsh are closer to the Gaelic speakers than the other P-Celtic speakers. Wales, with mountainous terrain and being away from the coasts which are closest to continental Europe make me think it isn't unlikely that they might have had less intermixing with incoming groups than a group like the Cornish would have had

Northern Europe PCA: https://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html

Plus there was considerable post-Roman settlement of Irish in Wales. Ogham stones have been found and there were local Irish kings, including in Breconshire from recollection.

rms2
03-29-2018, 08:47 PM
I added the text to this cartoon. It amuses me anyway.

22392

sktibo
03-29-2018, 11:46 PM
Phoebe is a very good person to test too as IIRC her ancestry is mostly from Anglesey (a strong Welsh speaking area) and from SW Wales I think, so high amounts of Welsh ancestry in her case.

The only thing I would add re. differences between Irish, Welsh and Scottish is that projects like POBI, IDA, the Insular Celtic one, they used FineStructure to detect the differences so things like genetic drift via isolation get picked up and the Welsh and Irish look far apart in these studies.

It might be that when Irish and Welsh are plotted on a European wide PCA or against AncientDNA samples then they are more similar. It wouldn't surprise me, given high levels of Celtic ancestry in Ireland, Wales, high levels of L21, the fact that Celtic languages are either still spoken today or at least were widely spoken until fairly recently.

I really wish I knew more about what the finestructure does and why it plots the Welsh and the Irish on the opposing sides of a graph when the Irish and Welsh appear to be in more or less the same group in a European-Wide graph. I looked where the Cornish ended up in the finestructure graph (using the Irish Traveller one, I couldn't actually see their markers no matter how far in I zoomed in the IDA PCA). I was quite surprised to see them clustering where the Northern English / Anglo Scottish Borders meet the Southern and Eastern English groups, with only a small pull towards the Welsh. A lot of the English were actually further in the direction of the Welsh clusters than the Cornish were, which I didn't expect. So in either form (finestructure or not) it seems there is a notable difference between the Cornish and Welsh. I'd have thought those P-Celtic speakers would have stuck together more!


Hi Sktibo - Just interested in your comments as always.

Both myself and my mother had the report done by Lucas. We both plot in the same position.

Edit: Just looked at Phoebe's plot and both myself and mother are also in that half way position but more north of Phoebe. (Suppose should discuss this on Lucasz's thread).

Interesting. I've been nothing but impressed with Lucasz's K36 analysis, it seems very well done. I think I recall a while back you and I were discussing or involved in a discussion about where the Welsh might be in terms of Scandinavian or Germanic-like ancestry on the Global 25 and I think Phoebe's results indicate a very similar situation to the Irish. I don't know much - anything really - about finestructure or how that works but my impression is that it must be REALLY fine to differentiate the Scots, Irish, and Welsh as it has when on a European or global scale they appear to be so darn similar.


Plus there was considerable post-Roman settlement of Irish in Wales. Ogham stones have been found and there were local Irish kings, including in Breconshire from recollection.

I Would love to see a POBI or IDA like analysis of Wales alone, I wonder if they could get an idea on just how much Irish genetic influence is in modern Wales...

castle3
03-30-2018, 05:18 AM
I was quite surprised to see them clustering where the Northern English / Anglo Scottish Borders meet the Southern and Eastern English groups, with only a small pull towards the Welsh. A lot of the English were actually further in the direction of the Welsh clusters than the Cornish were, which I didn't expect.
Professor Mark Robinson, an archaeologist, commented on some DNA testing of reputedly closely linked Celtic groups as follows:

'I had assumed that there was going to be this uniform Celtic fringe extending from Cornwall through to Wales and into Scotland. This has very definitely not been the case.' (End of Quote).

My opinion is that when we remove all the pseudo-history from the mix, we're often left with a very different story. Thankfully, DNA is helping us unearth the truth.

avalon
03-30-2018, 10:45 AM
I really wish I knew more about what the finestructure does and why it plots the Welsh and the Irish on the opposing sides of a graph when the Irish and Welsh appear to be in more or less the same group in a European-Wide graph. I looked where the Cornish ended up in the finestructure graph (using the Irish Traveller one, I couldn't actually see their markers no matter how far in I zoomed in the IDA PCA). I was quite surprised to see them clustering where the Northern English / Anglo Scottish Borders meet the Southern and Eastern English groups, with only a small pull towards the Welsh. A lot of the English were actually further in the direction of the Welsh clusters than the Cornish were, which I didn't expect. So in either form (finestructure or not) it seems there is a notable difference between the Cornish and Welsh. I'd have thought those P-Celtic speakers would have stuck together more!



I'm no expert on FineStructure, just that it is a powerful tool of analysis that can pick out subtle differences within very closely related populations, such as Britain and Ireland.

I found that the Insular Celtic paper actually had some very useful PCA charts - see below. For instance, along PC4 South Wales and Cornwall plot close together and on the t-SNE chart again they are both to the "south" of the main English cluster.

Geographically and linguistically I would expect Cornwall and South Wales to be genetically similar, and as per POBI/IDA they also had high levels of the NW France component. I haven't paid much attention to the Global 25 or Lukas36 but are those analyses not showing this?

22394

22395

Phoebe Watts
03-30-2018, 03:45 PM
Phoebe is a very good person to test too as IIRC her ancestry is mostly from Anglesey (a strong Welsh speaking area) and from SW Wales I think, so high amounts of Welsh ancestry in her case.

The only thing I would add re. differences between Irish, Welsh and Scottish is that projects like POBI, IDA, the Insular Celtic one, they used FineStructure to detect the differences so things like genetic drift via isolation get picked up and the Welsh and Irish look far apart in these studies.

It might be that when Irish and Welsh are plotted on a European wide PCA or against AncientDNA samples then they are more similar. It wouldn't surprise me, given high levels of Celtic ancestry in Ireland, Wales, high levels of L21, the fact that Celtic languages are either still spoken today or at least were widely spoken until fairly recently.

I have one parent from north Wales; one from south-west Wales. So I wouldn't qualify for those projects where they are looking for grandparents or great-grandparents born in a small geographic area. My ancestors moved from rural areas to industrial villages within the two regions, over more than a century up to the 1920s. The Lucasz K36 seems to work well for me but perhaps someone with a more localised ancestry would be more interesting?

All my recent ancestors were Welsh speaking. The first census to ask the language question was 1891 but I think it safe to assume that all 32 of my 3xgreat grandparents spoke the language. They were born between 1780 and 1820 in rural areas, mostly before the effects of industrialisation. I think it's important to bear in mind that where the Welsh language was strong, many incomers were assimilated in a generation or so. I can see this happened in Flintshire and Glamorgan; and perhaps even in Pembrokeshire near the Landsker.

But language survival suggests population stability I suppose. Although the continuing closeness to the "Old North" is interesting. Those early "Welsh" speaking areas in what became southern Scotland and northern England a long time ago are showing up in some of the charts.

03-30-2018, 04:02 PM
Maybe I should pay for the Lucasz K36, think it’s just 5 Euro, all 4 grandparents born in Llanelli, and I think also gg grandparents also there, known ggg grandfather from County Cork “Lane”, and probably Scottish before 1800. GGGG maybe more was a “Grant”.
So maybe I might be a interesting case.

Phoebe Watts
03-30-2018, 04:33 PM
I really wish I knew more about what the finestructure does and why it plots the Welsh and the Irish on the opposing sides of a graph when the Irish and Welsh appear to be in more or less the same group in a European-Wide graph. I looked where the Cornish ended up in the finestructure graph (using the Irish Traveller one, I couldn't actually see their markers no matter how far in I zoomed in the IDA PCA). I was quite surprised to see them clustering where the Northern English / Anglo Scottish Borders meet the Southern and Eastern English groups, with only a small pull towards the Welsh. A lot of the English were actually further in the direction of the Welsh clusters than the Cornish were, which I didn't expect. So in either form (finestructure or not) it seems there is a notable difference between the Cornish and Welsh. I'd have thought those P-Celtic speakers would have stuck together more!



Interesting. I've been nothing but impressed with Lucasz's K36 analysis, it seems very well done. I think I recall a while back you and I were discussing or involved in a discussion about where the Welsh might be in terms of Scandinavian or Germanic-like ancestry on the Global 25 and I think Phoebe's results indicate a very similar situation to the Irish. I don't know much - anything really - about finestructure or how that works but my impression is that it must be REALLY fine to differentiate the Scots, Irish, and Welsh as it has when on a European or global scale they appear to be so darn similar.



I Would love to see a POBI or IDA like analysis of Wales alone, I wonder if they could get an idea on just how much Irish genetic influence is in modern Wales...

I undersand fineStucture picks up recent relatedness whilst the PCA shows more distant relatedness. I'm not brave enough to try to explain that:). But if we consider that the Welsh and the Irish came from the same populations and have a shared language, history and mythology, albeit at a distance; then we were separated by history and by religion and became isolated from each other. I guess that give us similarity in the PCA but not in fineStructure?

So if we are looking at this more distant relatedness, it would be right that Wales (or at least North Wales) should plot closely to the other regions such as Cumbria, Northumbria and the south of Scotland. Avalon has posted some interesting PCA charts from the Insular Celtic paper which seems to show this.

I think we also have a lot to learn about the relatedness of all these other areas that remained British long after the Romans left.

Phoebe Watts
03-30-2018, 04:39 PM
Maybe I should pay for the Lucasz K36, think it’s just 5 Euro, all 4 grandparents born in Llanelli, and I think also gg grandparents also there, known ggg grandfather from County Cork “Lane”, and probably Scottish before 1800. GGGG maybe more was a “Grant”.
So maybe I might be a interesting case.

Yes - that would be great. I thought the report was a useful addition to the commercial tests. It would be good to compare where you appear on some of the charts.

sktibo
03-30-2018, 04:49 PM
I'm no expert on FineStructure, just that it is a powerful tool of analysis that can pick out subtle differences within very closely related populations, such as Britain and Ireland.

I found that the Insular Celtic paper actually had some very useful PCA charts - see below. For instance, along PC4 South Wales and Cornwall plot close together and on the t-SNE chart again they are both to the "south" of the main English cluster.

Geographically and linguistically I would expect Cornwall and South Wales to be genetically similar, and as per POBI/IDA they also had high levels of the NW France component. I haven't paid much attention to the Global 25 or Lukas36 but are those analyses not showing this?


Those give a very different analysis on where the Welsh clusters than the two I was looking at, and I think it is so interesting that their placement be so radically different even though it is using the same data. I wonder if it is like Phoebe has said above, a "closeness to the old north" looking at how North Wales clusters with Cumbria and Northern England in the lower image certainly suggests that. Strangely on the dendrogram, North Wales and South Wales cluster together and Cornwall is again distant.

Here's Lucasz's British Isles cluster, it appears to be very accurate for Anthrogenica members, we have seen Phoebe's results and Jessie has shared her and her mother's positions on it. Timberwolf lands with the same degree of accuracy in the upper right SW England position. It doesn't differentiate South and North Wales but Cornwall is not close to Wales within the Isles cluster.

22399


I undersand fineStucture picks up recent relatedness whilst the PCA shows more distant relatedness. I'm not brave enough to try to explain that:). But if we consider that the Welsh and the Irish came from the same populations and have a shared language, history and mythology, albeit at a distance; then we were separated by history and by religion and became isolated from each other. I guess that give us similarity in the PCA but not in fineStructure?

So if we are looking at this more distant relatedness, it would be right that Wales (or at least North Wales) should plot closely to the other regions such as Cumbria, Northumbria and the south of Scotland. Avalon has posted some interesting PCA charts from the Insular Celtic paper which seems to show this.

I think we also have a lot to learn about the relatedness of all these other areas that remained British long after the Romans left.

One of the questions currently on my mind is "which type of analysis should we take more seriously - finestructure or regular analysis?" One problem that pokes out at me with the finestructure is how different the clustering can be; I interpret inconsistency as an indicator of something being off or perhaps incorrect. If I have to choose one, I think the Insular Celtic paper might be the one to go with because the second split in the POBI was shown to be between North and South Wales, which is apparently quite a large difference, and the PCA in the Insular paper shows these two to be in very different locations rather than clustering together. What I'd really like to see is if Lucasz would be able to collect specifically North and South Welsh samples so we could see where they land on a non-finestructure PCA. I'm so curious as to if they would cluster together under that circumstance. Perhaps if we are able to find a consistent pattern that could indicate what the situation actually is.

sktibo
03-30-2018, 04:50 PM
Yes - that would be great. I thought the report was a useful addition to the commercial tests. It would be good to compare where you appear on some of the charts.

I'd just like to second SGDavies getting the Lucasz test.

@SGDavies Do it!

03-30-2018, 05:11 PM
I'd just like to second SGDavies getting the Lucasz test.

@SGDavies Do it!

Ok, I shall take a look tomorrow.

jdean
03-30-2018, 05:29 PM
Ok, I shall take a look tomorrow.

How do you go about doing this, I could send my mother's results but which one is better FTDNA or LivingDNA ?

sktibo
03-30-2018, 05:36 PM
John's K36 results where posted over in the K36 thread. I thought they were interesting: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-K36-Eurogenes-(Unofficial)-Oracle-and-other-ancestry-tools/page420

Post 4196


How do you go about doing this, I could send my mother's results but which one is better FTDNA or LivingDNA ?

Use your FTDNA values

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-30-2018, 05:39 PM
John's K36 results where posted over in the K36 thread. I thought they were interesting: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-K36-Eurogenes-(Unofficial)-Oracle-and-other-ancestry-tools/page420

I was just going to ask for your thoughts. I'm not good at interpreting these things but it is not what I was expecting. Looks more like SE England to me.

Phoebe Watts
03-30-2018, 05:44 PM
I remembered that the POBI website ( https://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/population-genetics ) highlights the survival of the Britishtribes and has a useful map. It says:

"Several of the other genetic clusters show similar locations to the tribal groupings and kingdoms around at the time of the Saxon invasion (from the 5th century), suggesting that these tribes and kingdoms may have maintained a regional identity for many centuries. For example the Cumbrian cluster corresponds well to the kingdom of Rheged, West Yorkshire to the Elmet and Northumbria to the Bernicia (see Figure 2)"

"The existence of these largely quite well separated clusters suggests a remarkable stability of the British people over quite long periods of time. This is in marked contrast to what is often assumed."

jdean
03-30-2018, 06:18 PM
John's K36 results where posted over in the K36 thread. I thought they were interesting: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-K36-Eurogenes-(Unofficial)-Oracle-and-other-ancestry-tools/page420

Post 4196

Use your FTDNA values

Thanks, sent it off just now, Mum's predominantly SE Wales.

sktibo
03-30-2018, 06:23 PM
I was just going to ask for your thoughts. I'm not good at interpreting these things but it is not what I was expecting. Looks more like SE England to me.

Hi John, I'll do my best:

The most important part in my opinion of this test is the PCA, in which you show as almost on the "SE English" mark.

If I recall correctly your previous tests (such as FTDNA) indicate a fairly strong "Germanic" or Scandinavian-like element. I believe this comes from multiple sources in Wales, the first being the Bell Beakers, and then later on the Anglo-Saxon, Danish, and Norwegians. So this type of ancestry is prevalent in both the Celtic populations and then later in the Germanic migrants (or invaders). Your Y-DNA indicates that you most likely did receive at least some ancestry from Germanic migrants of some kind. So you end up with a high "North Sea" score. As you know from previous tests, you often get Southern European percentages. This shows up in your K36 values in your French, Italian, and Iberian percentage, none of which is particularly high but all of them are substantial and pull you away from the Germanic side that the North Sea score would move you towards. While the North Sea score does pull you up towards Ireland and Wales near the top of the Isles cluster, it seems to me that the North Atlantic value is most responsible for this, and for whatever reason your North Atlantic score is quite low. Off the top of my head, North Atlantic is mostly based on Irish and Cornish samples, while the North Sea component is more related to the Germanic countries, but also to Scotland and NE England. I think your ancestry might be more Scottish-like than Cornish-like, and that may have shifted your values on the K36 to North Sea.

So your North Sea, French, Iberian, and Italian values have centered you in the middle of the Isles cluster. However, your North Atlantic value is very low and didn't pull you up to where it would make more sense for you to be (around NW England / Wales area). However, you are still in the Isles cluster, despite the fact that you land nearly on the SE English average, so it isn't completely off. The spanning tree has you as closest to NW England, which is a good location for you IMO. The test is limited by the values it is comprised of and I think in your case this limitation resulted in something that may be less accurate for you than another test might be. Davidski offers a Northern European PCA test which would be able to give you a second opinion on this result. https://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html

In conclusion, based on what I know about your ancestry and your other DNA test results, I can see how it is possible that the K36 analysis came to the result that it did. One thing that is important to note is that our true South-Eastern English member Norfolk (and his mother) plot to the right of where you landed, and that the SE English mark is an average. So you are closer to Wales than the two Anthrogenican East Anglian samples we have. If you are interested in taking another test such as the Northern Europe PCA or even the Global 25 (also available on the Eurogenes store page) it would be interesting to see if they agree with what the K36 test tells us about you or if they disagree entirely.

I hope that helps, for what it's worth you are closer to Wales than I am, which is a good thing. Relative to other members I've seen tested the results you have received aren't completely crazy, but I think they could be closer to your known ancestry on a different platform. Nothing is perfect, many people (I believe including yourself) got very logical Living DNA results, but for me, the result was way off. Sometimes our ancestral mixes just don't co-operate well with the platform we're being tested on.

03-30-2018, 06:28 PM
ok, so I just orderd. ill post here once I get the result.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-30-2018, 06:49 PM
Hi John, I'll do my best:

The most important part in my opinion of this test is the PCA, in which you show as almost on the "SE English" mark.

If I recall correctly your previous tests (such as FTDNA) indicate a fairly strong "Germanic" or Scandinavian-like element. I believe this comes from multiple sources in Wales, the first being the Bell Beakers, and then later on the Anglo-Saxon, Danish, and Norwegians. So this type of ancestry is prevalent in both the Celtic populations and then later in the Germanic migrants (or invaders). Your Y-DNA indicates that you most likely did receive at least some ancestry from Germanic migrants of some kind. So you end up with a high "North Sea" score. As you know from previous tests, you often get Southern European percentages. This shows up in your K36 values in your French, Italian, and Iberian percentage, none of which is particularly high but all of them are substantial and pull you away from the Germanic side that the North Sea score would move you towards. While the North Sea score does pull you up towards Ireland and Wales near the top of the Isles cluster, it seems to me that the North Atlantic value is most responsible for this, and for whatever reason your North Atlantic score is quite low. Off the top of my head, North Atlantic is mostly based on Irish and Cornish samples, while the North Sea component is more related to the Germanic countries, but also to Scotland and NE England. I think your ancestry might be more Scottish-like than Cornish-like, and that may have shifted your values on the K36 to North Sea.

So your North Sea, French, Iberian, and Italian values have centered you in the middle of the Isles cluster. However, your North Atlantic value is very low and didn't pull you up to where it would make more sense for you to be (around NW England / Wales area). However, you are still in the Isles cluster, despite the fact that you land nearly on the SE English average, so it isn't completely off. The spanning tree has you as closest to NW England, which is a good location for you IMO. The test is limited by the values it is comprised of and I think in your case this limitation resulted in something that may be less accurate for you than another test might be. Davidski offers a Northern European PCA test which would be able to give you a second opinion on this result. https://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html

In conclusion, based on what I know about your ancestry and your other DNA test results, I can see how it is possible that the K36 analysis came to the result that it did. One thing that is important to note is that our true South-Eastern English member Norfolk (and his mother) plot to the right of where you landed, and that the SE English mark is an average. So you are closer to Wales than the two Anthrogenican East Anglian samples we have. If you are interested in taking another test such as the Northern Europe PCA or even the Global 25 (also available on the Eurogenes store page) it would be interesting to see if they agree with what the K36 test tells us about you or if they disagree entirely.

I hope that helps, for what it's worth you are closer to Wales than I am, which is a good thing. Relative to other members I've seen tested the results you have received aren't completely crazy, but I think they could be closer to your known ancestry on a different platform. Nothing is perfect, many people (I believe including yourself) got very logical Living DNA results, but for me, the result was way off. Sometimes our ancestral mixes just don't co-operate well with the platform we're being tested on.

Thank you for that. I appreciate the thoughts.
I have fairly good reasons to suspect from test results that my paternal ancestry goes back to Norway and that possibly there may have been a fairly significant Norwegian presence (relatively speaking) in that small geographical area on the Herefordshire/Wales border where my paternal ancestors (and their wives) came from. It could be that at a local level this could be quite concentrated. There would also be Anglo Saxon and Welsh in that local mix of course.
"In the Domesday Book of 1086, Kilpeck (entered as Chipeete) was given by William the Conqueror to William Fitz Norman de la Mare, son of Norman de la Mare. The clan de la Mare is one of the oldest in Normandy and is descended from Ragnvald Eysteinsson, earl of Møre and Romsdal. (Norway) According to the Domesday survey, Kilpeck had "3 ploughs, 2 serfs and 4 oxmen and there are 57 men with 19 ploughs." There are mentions of a church on the site possibly from as early as the 7th century. There are vestiges of an enclosure, 200 yds (183 metres) by 300 yds (274 m) in the field, defining an Anglo-Saxon village."
Most of my known ancestry is either side of the border but I wouldn't expect that much of an Anglo Saxon or Norse/Norman influence on the Welsh side of that border but who knows for sure?

sktibo
03-30-2018, 07:21 PM
Thank you for that. I appreciate the thoughts.
I have fairly good reasons to suspect from test results that my paternal ancestry goes back to Norway and that possibly there may have been a fairly significant Norwegian presence (relatively speaking) in that small geographical area on the Herefordshire/Wales border where my paternal ancestors (and their wives) came from. It could be that at a local level this could be quite concentrated. There would also be Anglo Saxon and Welsh in that local mix of course.
"In the Domesday Book of 1086, Kilpeck (entered as Chipeete) was given by William the Conqueror to William Fitz Norman de la Mare, son of Norman de la Mare. The clan de la Mare is one of the oldest in Normandy and is descended from Ragnvald Eysteinsson, earl of Møre and Romsdal. (Norway) According to the Domesday survey, Kilpeck had "3 ploughs, 2 serfs and 4 oxmen and there are 57 men with 19 ploughs." There are mentions of a church on the site possibly from as early as the 7th century. There are vestiges of an enclosure, 200 yds (183 metres) by 300 yds (274 m) in the field, defining an Anglo-Saxon village."
Most of my known ancestry is either side of the border but I wouldn't expect that much of an Anglo Saxon or Norse/Norman influence on the Welsh side of that border but who knows for sure?

Anytime, I love spending time on this forum writing about this stuff.

I don't think you're particularly "Germanic" overall as your Southern European & French appear to balance out your North Sea - but it is definitely an aspect which appears to be present in your results. From what I've seen the Southern English (Norfolk) veer off to the right of the graph, towards the French, Phoebe and Jessie veer off towards the Scandinavians and Northern Dutch, and you are in the middle. However, in the up-down perspective you are more in line with individuals like myself and Norfolk, rather than closer to the top where it would be expected. Unfortunately it leaves us with more questions about the nature of your genetic mix than answers, and to get anything concrete out of it further testing is required.

avalon
03-31-2018, 07:28 AM
Those give a very different analysis on where the Welsh clusters than the two I was looking at, and I think it is so interesting that their placement be so radically different even though it is using the same data. I wonder if it is like Phoebe has said above, a "closeness to the old north" looking at how North Wales clusters with Cumbria and Northern England in the lower image certainly suggests that. Strangely on the dendrogram, North Wales and South Wales cluster together and Cornwall is again distant.

Here's Lucasz's British Isles cluster, it appears to be very accurate for Anthrogenica members, we have seen Phoebe's results and Jessie has shared her and her mother's positions on it. Timberwolf lands with the same degree of accuracy in the upper right SW England position. It doesn't differentiate South and North Wales but Cornwall is not close to Wales within the Isles cluster.


Yes, my own view is that the Insular Celtic paper is better in some ways than IDA or POBI as it gives an overall picture of Britain and Ireland using a large dataset, plus the PCA covers more dimensions as it goes from PC1 to PC4 and it does a t-SNE analysis which according to the paper is good at summarizing overall differences between the clusters.

So PC1 shows the variation between Ireland and Britain (with NW Ulster at one end and SE Eng at the other), as we would expect, then along PC2 Orkney splits off, then the Welsh clusters split along PC3. PC4 is very interesting as you and Phoebe have noted the position of North Wales in relation to Cumbria, etc. I do think this is probably related to the "Old North" but it's worth pointing out that in PCA, it's PC1 and PC2 that tend to capture most of the variation between clusters.

The Lucasz36 test does have a different placement compared to the ones I posted but it is a different type of analysis. How big is the British and Irish dataset for this test? Academic studies like IDA/Insular Celtic/POBI do have the advantage of having large datasets and good quality samples for the Isles.

avalon
03-31-2018, 08:06 AM
One thing to consider re. John's Lucasz36 results (hope you don't mind the comment John) is the placement of the Welsh Borders cluster in the charts I posted earlier. In the Insular paper it is the blue circle named BWA - Border Wales and if we look at PC1-PC4 and at the t-SNE chart then BWA is shifted somewhat towards the SE England cluster.

On the dendogram BWA sits on the tree with CHE (Cheshire) which is really a repeat of what we saw in the POBI paper and also relates to my own LivingDNA results and their NW England region and my own Flintshire/Denbighshire ancestry which was not assigned to North Wales by LivingDNA.

I think that basically BWA and CHE occupy a similar genetic position, for historical reasons the whole Welsh Border region from north to south is somewhat intermediary between the North and South Welsh clusters on the one hand and the SE English on the other. So given the genetic position of the Welsh Borders I can see a shift to SE England but I also would have expected John to have plotted closer to NW England on the LUcasz36 given similarities between CHE and BWA.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-31-2018, 09:04 AM
One thing to consider re. John's Lucasz36 results (hope you don't mind the comment John) is the placement of the Welsh Borders cluster in the charts I posted earlier. In the Insular paper it is the blue circle named BWA - Border Wales and if we look at PC1-PC4 and at the t-SNE chart then BWA is shifted somewhat towards the SE England cluster.

On the dendogram BWA sits on the tree with CHE (Cheshire) which is really a repeat of what we saw in the POBI paper and also relates to my own LivingDNA results and their NW England region and my own Flintshire/Denbighshire ancestry which was not assigned to North Wales by LivingDNA.

I think that basically BWA and CHE occupy a similar genetic position, for historical reasons the whole Welsh Border region from north to south is somewhat intermediary between the North and South Welsh clusters on the one hand and the SE English on the other. So given the genetic position of the Welsh Borders I can see a shift to SE England but I also would have expected John to have plotted closer to NW England on the LUcasz36 given similarities between CHE and BWA.

Your thoughts are always Welcome Avalon.
My "English" ancestry is concentrated in Herefordshire, close to the border, both on the maternal and paternal side. I understand there was quite a significant "French" presence in those parts from before the Conquest and afterwards.
Who knows what we might find if we were able to drill down to a local level, if you had relatively small groups of people that didn't travel far and inter-married for hundreds of years.

avalon
03-31-2018, 08:43 PM
Your thoughts are always Welcome Avalon.
My "English" ancestry is concentrated in Herefordshire, close to the border, both on the maternal and paternal side. I understand there was quite a significant "French" presence in those parts from before the Conquest and afterwards.
Who knows what we might find if we were able to drill down to a local level, if you had relatively small groups of people that didn't travel far and inter-married for hundreds of years.

Flintshire is an interesting case as it is where a reasonable chunk of my Welsh ancestry is from. There are bits of Offa's Dyke that run through Flintshire so it was clearly part of the frontier zone in Anglo-Saxon times and there is even a record of an Anglo Saxon settlement further west at Rhuddlan although by the 10th century Rhuddlan was back under Welsh control. Post-Norman Conquest, Flintshire was incorporated into the Earldom of Cheshire but then in the 1200s it is ruled by Llywelyn the Great and is part of Medieval Gwynedd - lots of to and fro over the centuries which is probably true of border areas generally.

Luckily we now have the genetic evidence to make sense of the history and the Welsh Borders (BWA + CHE) has its own distinct cluster which in my own case explains why my Flintshire ancestry was assigned to NW England (CHE) rather than to North Wales by LDNA.

I think a key factor in the history of the Welsh Borders is the "Welsh marches" during Medieval times and the influence of the Anglo-Normans and the Marcher Lords. Difficult to say precisely what the genetic impact was, whether it came from actual Normans or English peasant settlers, or whatever, but genetically I think it was enough to explain the modern genetic results we are seeing.

http://www.castlewales.com/march.html

sktibo
04-01-2018, 12:51 AM
Yes, my own view is that the Insular Celtic paper is better in some ways than IDA or POBI as it gives an overall picture of Britain and Ireland using a large dataset, plus the PCA covers more dimensions as it goes from PC1 to PC4 and it does a t-SNE analysis which according to the paper is good at summarizing overall differences between the clusters.

So PC1 shows the variation between Ireland and Britain (with NW Ulster at one end and SE Eng at the other), as we would expect, then along PC2 Orkney splits off, then the Welsh clusters split along PC3. PC4 is very interesting as you and Phoebe have noted the position of North Wales in relation to Cumbria, etc. I do think this is probably related to the "Old North" but it's worth pointing out that in PCA, it's PC1 and PC2 that tend to capture most of the variation between clusters.

The Lucasz36 test does have a different placement compared to the ones I posted but it is a different type of analysis. How big is the British and Irish dataset for this test? Academic studies like IDA/Insular Celtic/POBI do have the advantage of having large datasets and good quality samples for the Isles.

Lucasz has a pretty large number of samples, I don't know how big exactly but it is quite a lot many are academic and the non academic ones are carefully selected. I think it has been over a year he has been refining his test for, and many samples have come and gone. I believe he combines them into averages.

Phoebe Watts
04-01-2018, 09:23 PM
Lucasz has a pretty large number of samples, I don't know how big exactly but it is quite a lot many are academic and the non academic ones are carefully selected. I think it has been over a year he has been refining his test for, and many samples have come and gone. I believe he combines them into averages.

I see that although Jessie and I plot close together in the second section of Lucasz' report, our K36 input was quite different. And according to another thread, Jessie has a much higher "Celtic" percentage than I do. It is interesting that we can get such different results in different reports.

sktibo
04-01-2018, 09:36 PM
I see that although Jesse and I plot close together in the second section of Lucasz' report, our K36 input was quite different. And according to another thread, Jesse has a much higher "Celtic" percentage than I do. It is interesting that we can get such different results in different reports.

Well, it looks like you have quite similar K36 scores, the three main components (at least in the Celtic populations) are Iberian, Atlantic, and North Sea.
Jessie has 14.23 Iberian, 21.03 Atlantic, and 19.48 North Sea. You have 13.40 Iberian, 18.67 Atlantic, and 21.52 North Sea. The NW Germanic vs NW Celtic model which I think you are referring to has some issues with it, the Germanic and Celtic populations have quite a lot of common ancestry going on and I think the use of ancient populations can make it even more difficult to tease these differences apart. In that calculator, I get a higher Celtic percentage than you do, which IMO indicates a bit of a problem.

Phoebe Watts
04-01-2018, 09:48 PM
Flintshire is an interesting case as it is where a reasonable chunk of my Welsh ancestry is from. There are bits of Offa's Dyke that run through Flintshire so it was clearly part of the frontier zone in Anglo-Saxon times and there is even a record of an Anglo Saxon settlement further west at Rhuddlan although by the 10th century Rhuddlan was back under Welsh control. Post-Norman Conquest, Flintshire was incorporated into the Earldom of Cheshire but then in the 1200s it is ruled by Llywelyn the Great and is part of Medieval Gwynedd - lots of to and fro over the centuries which is probably true of border areas generally.

Luckily we now have the genetic evidence to make sense of the history and the Welsh Borders (BWA + CHE) has its own distinct cluster which in my own case explains why my Flintshire ancestry was assigned to NW England (CHE) rather than to North Wales by LDNA.

I think a key factor in the history of the Welsh Borders is the "Welsh marches" during Medieval times and the influence of the Anglo-Normans and the Marcher Lords. Difficult to say precisely what the genetic impact was, whether it came from actual Normans or English peasant settlers, or whatever, but genetically I think it was enough to explain the modern genetic results we are seeing.

http://www.castlewales.com/march.html

It is interesting isn't it, that even with this history, large parts of Flintshire were Welsh in language and culture late in the C19th and into the C20th.

Perhaps we should also put some emphasis on the history of the tribes in this area - the area that became Flintshire (and parts of Debighshire and Cheshire) was home to the Deceangli. They seem to have been different to the Ordovices further west.

Phoebe Watts
04-01-2018, 10:25 PM
Well, it looks like you have quite similar K36 scores, the three main components (at least in the Celtic populations) are Iberian, Atlantic, and North Sea.
Jessie has 14.23 Iberian, 21.03 Atlantic, and 19.48 North Sea. You have 13.40 Iberian, 18.67 Atlantic, and 21.52 North Sea. The NW Germanic vs NW Celtic model which I think you are referring to has some issues with it, the Germanic and Celtic populations have quite a lot of common ancestry going on and I think the use of ancient populations can make it even more difficult to tease these differences apart. In that calculator, I get a higher Celtic percentage than you do, which IMO indicates a bit of a problem.

Thanks - yes those main components are close aren't they.

jdean
04-03-2018, 10:19 AM
Thanks, sent it off just now, Mum's predominantly SE Wales.

Mum's results arrived this morning, I've posted the link on the K36 thread

#4217 (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-K36-Eurogenes-(Unofficial)-Oracle-and-other-ancestry-tools&p=374468&viewfull=1#post374468)

sktibo
04-03-2018, 01:59 PM
Mum's results arrived this morning, I've posted the link on the K36 thread

#4217 (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-K36-Eurogenes-(Unofficial)-Oracle-and-other-ancestry-tools&p=374468&viewfull=1#post374468)

Doesn't look too shabby at all, glad to see more Welsh results!

04-03-2018, 09:08 PM
My K36 result from Lukasz
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x0ccEGrXnm-Lb1mfi8sZz8DkQqoDgEVv/view

Interesting how he has Northern Ireland trumping my Welsh.? Any thoughts?

sktibo
04-04-2018, 02:54 AM
My K36 result from Lukasz
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x0ccEGrXnm-Lb1mfi8sZz8DkQqoDgEVv/view

Interesting how he has Northern Ireland trumping my Welsh.? Any thoughts?

Your results are very interesting. I am surprised that they have such a strong lean towards South-West England - you are closer to Timberwolf than you are to Phoebe. IIRC Phoebe is half Northern and you are mostly Southern Welsh, is this correct? I can't help but wonder if what we are seeing here is the difference (more or less) between the South and North Welsh. I would really love to see what would happen if Lucasz were able to divide his Welsh samples into North and South...

So, here's an idea as to the specific question of Northern Ireland beating out Wales. Northern Ireland is shifted more towards Cornwall & France. Wales is shifted towards the Germanic regions in the same way that Scotland is. In the Insular Celtic paper PCA graphs posted earlier by Jessie, we saw that South Wales and Cornwall clustered fairly closely together while North Wales was on the other side. This might be how these two sides are represented in Lucasz's PCA. IIRC you have some Scottish and Irish ancestry, which pull you away from SW England and you land around Northern Ireland.

@Lucasz,

I hope you see this post. If so, is there any way you could try to see if South Welsh and North Welsh cluster differently on your graph?

04-04-2018, 04:58 AM
Interesting idea Sktibo, yes almost entirely South West Wales, “LLanelli”.
And we know from POBI, that North and South Wales split from each other distinctively.
Yes I have Irish for sure, GG Grandfather born in country cork Ireland
Scottish part is much further back, maybe even to GGGG, so far back we can’t trace the origin of Grant surname in our town Llanelli, we thinking it came with Jacobite refugees or from their Army retreat from Derby, we got no idea, but definetly before 1760.

There might also be a Cornish connection but I have not proved this yet as there were a few people with same first and surname born the same year in same town, but that would be GGG also. Also family rumour of British soldier bring back Fench woman after Napolionic wars but I have no proof just grandmothers story so that also would be GGG or another G if true.

avalon
04-11-2018, 08:21 PM
It is interesting isn't it, that even with this history, large parts of Flintshire were Welsh in language and culture late in the C19th and into the C20th.

Perhaps we should also put some emphasis on the history of the tribes in this area - the area that became Flintshire (and parts of Debighshire and Cheshire) was home to the Deceangli. They seem to have been different to the Ordovices further west.

That's very true. I remember visiting my grandmother in Flintshire in the 1980s and the people of her generation spoke Welsh but the younger people in the village tended to speak English so that was an interesting generational difference, that probably marked the end of a language transition that had been going on since the 19th century.

Recently when I've been back to Flintshire and along the North Wales coast, everyone just sounds like a Scouser now!:biggrin1:

avalon
04-11-2018, 09:08 PM
I think this Lukasz test looks fairly good, and If I test with ftdna then may be able to get the raw files needed?!

My main doubt though is over the quality of the Welsh reference populations as we can see that Anthrogenica members with Welsh ancestry seem to be in quite different positions on the PCA. I'm not blaming Lucasz, he can only work with the data that is available to him and he simply can't have access to POBI quality data.

If it's a work in progress, then maybe he will be able to get more academic Welsh samples so we should see what happened with POBI - Wales broadly split into 3 distinct genetic clusters, North Wales, South Wales and Welsh Borders. I don't think that using a single Wales average is a good idea though because we know that there are strong genetic differences within Wales. Having said that, the differences are probably down to high levels of Welsh drift which is something that might get detected by FineStructure but not by the Lucasz test. All in all though, it is very interesting looking at these results.

sktibo
04-12-2018, 02:21 AM
I think this Lukasz test looks fairly good, and If I test with ftdna then may be able to get the raw files needed?!

My main doubt though is over the quality of the Welsh reference populations as we can see that Anthrogenica members with Welsh ancestry seem to be in quite different positions on the PCA. I'm not blaming Lucasz, he can only work with the data that is available to him and he simply can't have access to POBI quality data.

If it's a work in progress, then maybe he will be able to get more academic Welsh samples so we should see what happened with POBI - Wales broadly split into 3 distinct genetic clusters, North Wales, South Wales and Welsh Borders. I don't think that using a single Wales average is a good idea though because we know that there are strong genetic differences within Wales. Having said that, the differences are probably down to high levels of Welsh drift which is something that might get detected by FineStructure but not by the Lucasz test. All in all though, it is very interesting looking at these results.

If you can afford it I'd just get an FTDNA or MyHeritage test (whichever is cheaper) if it just isn't in your immediate future I'd still be curious to see what your K36 data with Living DNA tells you..
I agree that he should probably split Wales into at least two categories

JonikW
04-12-2018, 09:34 PM
That's very true. I remember visiting my grandmother in Flintshire in the 1980s and the people of her generation spoke Welsh but the younger people in the village tended to speak English so that was an interesting generational difference, that probably marked the end of a language transition that had been going on since the 19th century.

Recently when I've been back to Flintshire and along the North Wales coast, everyone just sounds like a Scouser now!:biggrin1:

I must admit, I work with two lovely people from there (Liverpool/Manchester-by-Sea;)) with the pseudo-Scouse accent. It somewhat annoys me that they think it's deeply local. Surely it's post industrial revolution. The people just down the road in Llangollen sound more classically Welsh. Not to the extent of my stereotypical relatives in the Valleys though.:)

Phoebe Watts
04-15-2018, 05:17 PM
I'd be really interested to see where you fall on the Northern Europe PCA by Davidski.

@ sktibo
Here is my plot.

Is it what you expected?

sktibo
04-15-2018, 07:03 PM
@ sktibo
Here is my plot.

Is it what you expected?

That is very interesting, thank you, it isn't unexpected but I was wondering if you would plot extremely in the Irish area or not. You definitely fall into that cluster but in a more central position than I would have expected. Do you have the co-ordinates that went along with it?

Phoebe Watts
04-15-2018, 07:12 PM
That is very interesting, thank you, it isn't unexpected but I was wondering if you would plot extremely in the Irish area or not. You definitely fall into that cluster but in a more central position than I would have expected. Do you have the co-ordinates that went along with it?

I seem to look very like Irish in some circumstances but not others.

Here are the co-ordinates:
,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10
Phoebe_Watts,0.0274,0.0079,0.005,0.004,0.0059,0.00 41,-0.0036,0.0003,-0.004,0.0006

sktibo
04-15-2018, 07:29 PM
I seem to look very like Irish in some circumstances but not others.

Here are the co-ordinates:
,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10
Phoebe_Watts,0.0274,0.0079,0.005,0.004,0.0059,0.00 41,-0.0036,0.0003,-0.004,0.0006

Just wanted to run all ten coordinates on nMonte to see what happened with your data, but no surprises!

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Irish:Ireland9 English:English5 Irish:Ireland27 English:England8
0.7959271 1.0896330 1.1479111 1.2689366
German:Germany12 Scottish:Scotland1 English:English3 Scottish:Scotland2
1.2785539 1.2837445 1.2972278 1.3046455

Irish,60.8
English,10.8
French,6.2
Dutch_Overijssel,4
Scottish,3.8
Dutch_Zuid-Holland,3
Dutch_Noord-Holland,2.8
Dutch_Noord-Brabantt,2.4
Belgian,2
Dutch_Groningen,1
German,0.8
Dutch_Limburg,0.6
Dutch_Gelderland,0.4
Icelandic,0.4
Norwegian,0.4
Orcadian,0.4
Dutch_Friesland,0.2

avalon
04-16-2018, 03:32 PM
That is very interesting, thank you, it isn't unexpected but I was wondering if you would plot extremely in the Irish area or not. You definitely fall into that cluster but in a more central position than I would have expected. Do you have the co-ordinates that went along with it?

I haven't been following Daviski's Northern Europe PCA but from what you've seen sktibo, do people of mostly British ancestry tend to occupy a similar space on this PCA? I notice there are Iron Age English on this one, presumably they are the Hinxton samples.

BackToTheForests
04-16-2018, 04:06 PM
That is very interesting, thank you, it isn't unexpected but I was wondering if you would plot extremely in the Irish area or not. You definitely fall into that cluster but in a more central position than I would have expected. Do you have the co-ordinates that went along with it?

This is very interesting for me, Phoebe Watts seems to land almost precisely where my mother has. I wonder if their nMonte breakdown will look similar, would you mind running her North Euro coordinates as well? I would love to compare.

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10
Mary_Curley,0.026,0.0095,0.0029,0.003,0.0001,0.002 7,-0.002,0.0003,-0.0023,-0.0077

sktibo
04-16-2018, 04:25 PM
I haven't been following Daviski's Northern Europe PCA but from what you've seen sktibo, do people of mostly British ancestry tend to occupy a similar space on this PCA? I notice there are Iron Age English on this one, presumably they are the Hinxton samples.

it can vary a bit. Norfolk and his mother are still in the green / Irish zone but bordering on the French - so bottom right of this. There are some unusual results on it, Firemonkey for whatever reason on this test is in with the Scandinavians. Myself and MitchellSince are both mixed yet mostly British and we are around the "Dutch" zone (though neither Radboud or Finn land here) which is in between the French, Irish, and Northern Germanic types. Iron Age samples Look like Hinxton 1 (HI1), what I assume is Lindon (L-I0789), and one labelled M1489, which I am not familiar with.

sktibo
04-16-2018, 04:27 PM
This is very interesting for me, Phoebe Watts seems to land almost precisely where my mother has. I wonder if their nMonte breakdown will look similar, would you mind running her North Euro coordinates as well? I would love to compare.

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10
Mary_Curley,0.026,0.0095,0.0029,0.003,0.0001,0.002 7,-0.002,0.0003,-0.0023,-0.0077

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Irish:Ireland27 Dutch_Friesland:Friesland_32
0.6446705 0.8501765
English:English3 Dutch_Noord-Holland:Noord-Holland_1
1.0496190 1.0635319
English:English5 Scottish:Scotland1
1.0905962 1.1239662
English:England7 Scottish:Scotland2
1.1356496 1.2329639

[1] "distance%=0.0578"

Mary_Curley

Irish,45.6
Dutch_Friesland,18
English,7.4
Dutch_Noord-Holland,4
Scottish,3.2
French,2.8
Dutch_Overijssel,2.6
Dutch_Zuid-Holland,2.6
Belgian,1.8
Dutch_Drenthe,1.8
Orcadian,1.6
Dutch_Limburg,1.4
Dutch_Noord-Brabantt,1.4
German,1.4
Swedish,1
Dutch_Gelderland,0.8
Dutch_Groningen,0.8
Icelandic,0.8
Austrian,0.2
Danish,0.2
Dutch_Flevoland,0.2
Norwegian,0.2
Slovenian,0.2

BackToTheForests
04-16-2018, 04:39 PM
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Irish:Ireland27 Dutch_Friesland:Friesland_32
0.6446705 0.8501765
English:English3 Dutch_Noord-Holland:Noord-Holland_1
1.0496190 1.0635319
English:English5 Scottish:Scotland1
1.0905962 1.1239662
English:England7 Scottish:Scotland2
1.1356496 1.2329639

[1] "distance%=0.0578"

Mary_Curley

Irish,45.6
Dutch_Friesland,18
English,7.4
Dutch_Noord-Holland,4
Scottish,3.2
French,2.8
Dutch_Overijssel,2.6
Dutch_Zuid-Holland,2.6
Belgian,1.8
Dutch_Drenthe,1.8
Orcadian,1.6
Dutch_Limburg,1.4
Dutch_Noord-Brabantt,1.4
German,1.4
Swedish,1
Dutch_Gelderland,0.8
Dutch_Groningen,0.8
Icelandic,0.8
Austrian,0.2
Danish,0.2
Dutch_Flevoland,0.2
Norwegian,0.2
Slovenian,0.2

Wow, quite a bit of Dutch in this model, also the German and Scandinavian types. I should go through the Northern Europe thread and make some comparisons. It is a bit odd that your father, Phoebe Watts, and my mother plot so closely on the PCA but the nMonte results (to my inexperienced eyes) seem radically different. Thank you for running that for me, much appreciated.

sktibo
04-16-2018, 04:54 PM
Wow, quite a bit of Dutch in this model, also the German and Scandinavian types. I should go through the Northern Europe thread and make some comparisons. It is a bit odd that your father, Phoebe Watts, and my mother plot so closely on the PCA but the nMonte results (to my inexperienced eyes) seem radically different. Thank you for running that for me, much appreciated.

Don't look into this one too much. The PCA uses 2 co-ordinates and the nMonte uses all ten. Your Mother's and Phoebe's results are very similar.

Phoebe Watts
04-17-2018, 04:38 PM
That's very true. I remember visiting my grandmother in Flintshire in the 1980s and the people of her generation spoke Welsh but the younger people in the village tended to speak English so that was an interesting generational difference, that probably marked the end of a language transition that had been going on since the 19th century.

Recently when I've been back to Flintshire and along the North Wales coast, everyone just sounds like a Scouser now!:biggrin1:

Yes, that sounds right. There were different patterns of language transition in different places and at different times and there have been some interesting studies. My experience is quite different in each of my family lines.

Even in the north-west, lots of people sound a bit like Scousers. It was interesting to hear the various accents of the Welsh athletes in the coverage of the Commonwealth Games recently.

Phoebe Watts
04-17-2018, 04:54 PM
I must admit, I work with two lovely people from there (Liverpool/Manchester-by-Sea;)) with the pseudo-Scouse accent. It somewhat annoys me that they think it's deeply local. Surely it's post industrial revolution. The people just down the road in Llangollen sound more classically Welsh. Not to the extent of my stereotypical relatives in the Valleys though.:)

I tend to agree with Avalon's comment that everyone sounds [a bit like] a Scouser now. But I think I'm with your colleagues too...

There as a huge Welsh influx into Liverpool in the 1800s and the Merseyside dialects already reflect that.

I'm not really sure what a classically Welsh accent sounds like in terms of the English language either :). I'm automatically listening for the clues that tell me whether the Welsh person, speaking English, can speak Welsh or not.

You are right that the situation in the Valleys is different - the history is so different there too.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-17-2018, 05:16 PM
I tend to agree with Avalon's comment that everyone sounds [a bit like] a Scouser now. But I think I'm with your colleagues too...

There as a huge Welsh influx into Liverpool in the 1800s and the Merseyside dialects already reflect that.

I'm not really sure what a classically Welsh accent sounds like in terms of the English language either :). I'm automatically listening for the clues that tell me whether the Welsh person, speaking English, can speak Welsh or not.

You are right that the situation in the Valleys is different - the history is so different there too.

I don't think there is a "standard" Welsh accent although maybe it is stronger (but varied) amongst Welsh speaking people.
To me people in the North have a different accent to those in parts of the South or West. Go to South Pembrokeshire and you would think you were in England.
The Valleys are considered very "Welsh" in terms of accent but I don't think many actually speak the Welsh language although some Welsh words are still in common usage. The older headstones in the local cemetery are mainly in Welsh.
I can go 10 miles West or East and hear very different accents.

Phoebe Watts
04-17-2018, 08:27 PM
I don't think there is a "standard" Welsh accent although maybe it is stronger (but varied) amongst Welsh speaking people.
To me people in the North have a different accent to those in parts of the South or West. Go to South Pembrokeshire and you would think you were in England.
The Valleys are considered very "Welsh" in terms of accent but I don't think many actually speak the Welsh language although some Welsh words are still in common usage. The older headstones in the local cemetery are mainly in Welsh.
I can go 10 miles West or East and hear very different accents.

You are right that there isn't a "standard" Welsh accent. A map of Welsh accents would look a bit like the Welsh part of the POBI map but with even more clusters...

I was just wondering what a "classically" Welsh accent might be... Perhaps "distinctively" is a better term?

Valleys Welsh is "distinctively" Welsh isn't it? But the Valleys were a melting-pot for a large part of Wales - also influenced by the English of the borders, the English midlands and south-west; Ireland and beyond. I think there are parallels in the role of Liverpool in respect of North Wales that aren't always recognised. And that it is only natural that the English accent of parts of North Wales sounds a bit like a Liverpool accent.

JonikW
04-18-2018, 02:28 PM
My guess is that the Flintshire coast has become Liverpool-sounding because so many people from neighbouring English regions have moved there over the decades. The few I know have got English surnames, for example. Can't remember whether Borrow or any other traveller had anything to say about the local dialect in times past... I also think something of the Valleys lilt is at least detectable in many Welsh accents, even in the north.

JonikW
04-18-2018, 03:55 PM
I dug out a few Liverpool references in Borrow's Wild Wales, which covers his journey around the country in 1854. I know this is only one account but it suggests something interesting. A look at the places of birth in Victorian censuses for Liverpool and North Wales would no doubt give a better picture of course.

Borrow was a Welsh speaker and loved to talk to people in that language during his journey. Somewhere not far from Holyhead Borrow meets some men outside a "genteel house" who tell him it belongs to "one Mr Sparrow from Liverpool". One of them tells him that the lands are "almost entirely taken possession of by Saxons". In Llangollen someone tells him that Pengwern Hall there, its farm and several other farms were recently sold "to certain people from Liverpool" who now live there. He also meets a woman born of Anglesea parents in Liverpool who has now returned to Wales, and separately a man who says his wife "has lived at service in Liverpool" and so can speak some English, and another whose brother was "in business in Liverpool".

Also, in Bangor: "It was Saturday night and the house [inn] was thronged with people, who had arrived by train from Manchester and Liverpool, with the intention of passing the Sunday in the Welsh town." He's not very flattering about these folk: "I was not amongst Welsh but the scum of manufacturing England."

This is interesting because it does suggest movement in both directions and an influence of the kind I think Phoebe is suggesting. I think the man whose wife has lived in Liverpool and so can speak English may be key, suggesting that native Welsh speakers' first contact with English in some northern parts may often have been of the Liverpool variety, introducing a kind of standard.

Judith
04-18-2018, 04:27 PM
Pleasure steamers from Liverpool along the North Wales coast started in 1821, those large piers at the Victorian seaside resorts were for these large trip boats, so there was ample time before 1854 for it to be established as the lower class day out too. The trains followed.
Llangollen is on the A5 which is/was the main trunk road from London to Holyhead so many of the mail and stage coaches to Ireland went that way, well before train transport.

JonikW
04-18-2018, 05:09 PM
Sktibo and anyone else who can help, Lucasz has posted my results. He says I'm "Pan-British".

avalon
04-18-2018, 07:47 PM
I tend to agree with Avalon's comment that everyone sounds [a bit like] a Scouser now. But I think I'm with your colleagues too...

There as a huge Welsh influx into Liverpool in the 1800s and the Merseyside dialects already reflect that.

I'm not really sure what a classically Welsh accent sounds like in terms of the English language either :). I'm automatically listening for the clues that tell me whether the Welsh person, speaking English, can speak Welsh or not.

You are right that the situation in the Valleys is different - the history is so different there too.

One thing I have noticed in North Wales is that the Liverpool influence on the accent is more prevalent along the coast, in the seaside towns. I can't really speak for Anglesey but in some of the strong Welsh speaking communities such as Blaenau Ffestiniog, which I am quite familiar with, you can often tell when someone speaks English that they are a native Welsh speaker - the intonation is Welsh and it lacks the Liverpool influence. I don't speak Welsh myself but I understand the pronounciation and some basic vocab.

Broadly I think the differences in North Wales are between communities that are predominantly English speaking and those that are mainly Welsh speaking.

avalon
04-18-2018, 08:10 PM
Sktibo and anyone else who can help, Lucasz has posted my results. He says I'm "Pan-British".

One thing I'd say is that you and JohnHowells both have a large proportion of your ancestry from South Wales Border (per Living DNA) but on the Lucasz PCA you are miles apart!

From the Welsh posters that have done this test they are all over the place on the PCA so maybe Lucasz doesn't have sufficient or good quality Welsh reference populations.

The other issue might be the amount of genetic variation within Wales, eg, per POBI, North Wales and South Wales were very distinct from each other. I think he has said himself that the Welsh are difficult to get a handle on, he probably just doesn't have enough data.

JonikW
04-18-2018, 08:14 PM
One thing I'd say is that you and JohnHowells both have a large proportion of your ancestry from South Wales Border (per Living DNA) but on the Lucasz PCA you are miles apart!

From the Welsh posters that have done this test they are all over the place on the PCA so maybe Lucasz doesn't have sufficient or good quality Welsh reference populations.

The other issue might be the amount of genetic variation within Wales, eg, per POBI, North Wales and South Wales were very distinct from each other. I think he has said himself that the Welsh are difficult to get a handle on, he probably just doesn't have enough data.
Thanks, John and I definitely have similar border ancestry. Mine is almost entirely Monmouthshire/Breconshire as far as I know. Both my father and mother have Breconshire and I have many cousins that match me on both sides on 23andme.

Phoebe Watts
04-18-2018, 08:41 PM
I also think something of the Valleys lilt is at least detectable in many Welsh accents, even in the north.

It is unlikely that the valleys lilt will have affected the accents of north Wales because until very recently there was very little contact. I think you are hearing a similarity - the English of most areas of Wales will have been affected by the Welsh language locally. There is some published research on this. I'm quite sure that Liverpool English was affected in the same way. Apparently there is was a similar effect on the accents of the west midlands of England too.

JonikW
04-18-2018, 08:49 PM
It is unlikely that the valleys lilt will have affected the accents of north Wales because until very recently there was very little contact. I think you are hearing a similarity - the English of most areas of Wales will have been affected by the Welsh language locally. There is some published research on this. I'm quite sure that Liverpool English was affected in the same way. Apparently there is was a similar effect on the accents of the west midlands of England too.

I was thinking more, not that the Valleys affected other areas but that that particular intonation is something many areas have in common, possibly going back into the deep past. When I stayed with a Welsh speaking family in a village near Aberystwyth as a kid, for example, I thought they sounded like my mother's Cwmbran family when they spoke to me in English. They also taught me all the Welsh I know (not much unfortunately, but it's stuck through the decades), for which I'm very grateful.

sktibo
04-19-2018, 05:45 AM
Hey Jonik, well Wales as number 1 map correlation.. no surprises there! Really interesting to see your PCA placement however, right in the middle and also at the top of the British Isles cluster.. more Irish than the Irish average itself. That's an incredibly Celtic result, for lack of a better way of stating that. Now that we've got results from yourself, SGDavies, Phoebe, and John, I think we have a decent idea about variance in the Welsh when compared to the other Insular populations on the K36. Without the finestructure, they seem to cluster with the Irish and the Scottish, generally speaking. I think John's results are a bit of an exception and are partially the result of the limitations of the K36. One thing that strikes me as interesting was that in both nMonte and Gaussian method you match most closely to NE England. In one of the finestructure PCAs I think North Wales clustered with Cumbria and Northumbria. Interesting to see a match with an Anglo-Scottish Border population.
So I'm thinking the K36 can't reliably split up the various Welsh populations, but to be fair to it that is a rather difficult task. I'm surprised that neither you nor John had any strong indication of a SW England connection.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-19-2018, 05:59 AM
Thanks, John and I definitely have similar border ancestry. Mine is almost entirely Monmouthshire/Breconshire as far as I know. Both my father and mother have Breconshire and I have many cousins that match me on both sides on 23andme.

Yes I have quite a lot of Breconshire and North Mon. and just over the Herefordshire border. Quite a bit also in Radnorshire and Montgomeryshire. In fact some of my "Breconshire" ancestors appear to have had Radnorshire origins so maybe that is more significant.
From Autosomal matches (but no paper trail) also possibly some Carmarthenshire and the North West, (maybe Anglesey).
I suspect as Avalon said there is a lack of data in relation to Wales and it could be quite diverse relatively speaking, early tribal structures maybe and difficulties with population movement early on for geographical reasons.

sktibo
04-19-2018, 06:00 AM
Wish Living DNA would hurry it up with the Irish regions so we can see if that changes all of your results significantly or what happens there

JonikW
04-19-2018, 06:49 AM
I'll second that! And thanks for your analysis of my results and the others. Fascinating.

JonikW
04-19-2018, 09:21 AM
Wish Living DNA would hurry it up with the Irish regions so we can see if that changes all of your results significantly or what happens there

By the way, I'd like to see a simple breakdown of how these tests work. I'm mystified by "Gaussian" and other terminology. Is there anything online that a layman could understand? I'd love to know more.

Phoebe Watts
04-19-2018, 10:15 AM
One thing that strikes me as interesting was that in both nMonte and Gaussian method you match most closely to NE England. In one of the finestructure PCAs I think North Wales clustered with Cumbria and Northumbria. Interesting to see a match with an Anglo-Scottish Border population.


Doesn't it look like the Wales of the early middle ages though? The tradition of Yr Hen Ogledd or the Old North is still important in Wales although not generally well known. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Ogledd

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-19-2018, 11:09 AM
Doesn't it look like the Wales of the early middle ages though? The tradition of Yr Hen Ogledd or the Old North is still important in Wales although not generally well known. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Ogledd

Thing is though didn't the POBI suggest there is no distinct "celtic" identity genetically and that Wales appears to differ from other "celtic" parts of Britain to some extent and with actually some differences within Wales from North to South?
Maybe North Wales would be closer to parts of Northern Britain owing to proximity but I don't know if any evidence suggests that (at this stage).

Phoebe Watts
04-19-2018, 02:02 PM
Thing is though didn't the POBI suggest there is no distinct "celtic" identity genetically and that Wales appears to differ from other "celtic" parts of Britain to some extent and with actually some differences within Wales from North to South?
Maybe North Wales would be closer to parts of Northern Britain owing to proximity but I don't know if any evidence suggests that (at this stage).

The Insular Celtic report is most the most interesting one I have seen so far.

And yes, Wales differs from the rest of Britain. But north Wales is close to the clusters of the Old North and south Wales is close to Cornwall.

sktibo
04-19-2018, 02:21 PM
The Insular Celtic report is most the most interesting one I have seen so far.

And yes, Wales differs from the rest of Britain. But north Wales is close to the clusters of the Old North and south Wales is close to Cornwall.

Only on one PCA though. While I myself like that particular explanation for Welsh DNA the only consistent factor seems to be that it can move around a heck of a lot depending on how you graph it - it doesn't seem to be consistent at least on these finestructure graphs that we see.

sktibo
04-19-2018, 02:34 PM
By the way, I'd like to see a simple breakdown of how these tests work. I'm mystified by "Gaussian" and other terminology. Is there anything online that a layman could understand? I'd love to know more.

I don't actually know how the Gaussain and Admix4 differ but they both try to calculate the best match in four modes, trying to summarize your ancestral make up in 1 to 4 populations. Basically the way I see it is that these tests start with the average of your ancestry, all of it combined together, and then they try to take it apart or re-construct it with the population references they have available to them. This gets really complicated with groups like NW Europeans that have tons of shared ancestry with each other, and people can get some mixtures which are pretty far off their actual ancestry but "add up" to more or less the same thing in terms of different populations. We also don't know all that much about most of these populations in terms of what comprises them, making it difficult to analyze. Another problem is that these tests are all using a limited number of SNPs to get this "ancestral average" that these tests start with, which, while the limited number of SNPs does an impressive job considering, it is probably missing some factor or another about one's ancestry just based on the fact that it isn't even close to the whole thing.
So I don't know that much about this stuff and I still find myself being corrected pretty regularly but I hope that is a decent quick and dirty summary on this sort of thing. I didn't read too many articles aside from the ones I really wanted to (almost entirely on Insular genetics) and I think it was through participation on this forum, just asking stupid questions and getting my hands dirty that I've come to learn what I have so far.. hopefully some of it is actually true!

Phoebe Watts
04-19-2018, 04:57 PM
Only on one PCA though. While I myself like that particular explanation for Welsh DNA the only consistent factor seems to be that it can move around a heck of a lot depending on how you graph it - it doesn't seem to be consistent at least on these finestructure graphs that we see.

Perhaps I misunderstood. I had thought that PC4 v PC1 held the key messages. And that PC1 to PC3 were just showing the original clustering (with Ireland then Orkneys then Wales separating away). Do you think I have missed something?

avalon
04-19-2018, 06:39 PM
As I understand it (and it may be a professional can correct me if I'm wrong) with principal components, PC1 and PC2 capture most of the genetic variation which is why genetic studies tend to use those components. PC4 is showing some variation but it is less significant than the first 2 components. One obvious point with PC4 is the position of Orkney right next to SE England, so obviously PC4 is not showing the variation of Orkney seen in PC2.

I think PC4 is showing something, perhaps related to North Wales and the 'Old North' but it is not as significant as the differences in PC1-PC2-PC3

Re. the Welsh clusters, North and South Wales sit together on all the dendograms but along PC3 they are clearly separate so I would say that North and South Wales are more like each other than anybody else in Britain but they are still very distinct from each other. To confuse matters you also have the T-SNE chart in which North Wales is placed way off on its own to the NE. This must be down though to high levels of genetic drift in North Wales because going off that chart North and South Wales are miles apart.

The T-SNE chart though is supposed to be good at summarising overall differences though and it makes sense to me, other than the position of North Wales.

sktibo
04-20-2018, 03:11 AM
Perhaps I misunderstood. I had thought that PC4 v PC1 held the key messages. And that PC1 to PC3 were just showing the original clustering (with Ireland then Orkneys then Wales separating away). Do you think I have missed something?

I'm really not sure how to prioritize which PC is more important than another. All I know is that in the Northern Europe PCA PC1 and PC2 are the two that matter the most but I am not exactly sure why that is


As I understand it (and it may be a professional can correct me if I'm wrong) with principal components, PC1 and PC2 capture most of the genetic variation which is why genetic studies tend to use those components. PC4 is showing some variation but it is less significant than the first 2 components. One obvious point with PC4 is the position of Orkney right next to SE England, so obviously PC4 is not showing the variation of Orkney seen in PC2.

I think PC4 is showing something, perhaps related to North Wales and the 'Old North' but it is not as significant as the differences in PC1-PC2-PC3

Re. the Welsh clusters, North and South Wales sit together on all the dendograms but along PC3 they are clearly separate so I would say that North and South Wales are more like each other than anybody else in Britain but they are still very distinct from each other. To confuse matters you also have the T-SNE chart in which North Wales is placed way off on its own to the NE. This must be down though to high levels of genetic drift in North Wales because going off that chart North and South Wales are miles apart.

The T-SNE chart though is supposed to be good at summarising overall differences though and it makes sense to me, other than the position of North Wales.

I really, really want to see a British Isles PCA graph without finestructure to see if Wales forms anything resembling its own cluster, ideally with Wales being separated into North, South, and Borders.

avalon
04-20-2018, 12:18 PM
I really, really want to see a British Isles PCA graph without finestructure to see if Wales forms anything resembling its own cluster, ideally with Wales being separated into North, South, and Borders.

I'm no expert but from reading the Insular paper, it looks like fineSTRUCTURE is used to produce the dendogram which shows clusters on tree braches but the PCAs are produced using ChromoPainter. How fineSTRUCTURE and ChromoPainter are connected to each other I'm not sure, the really technical stuff is beyond my knowledge.

The (t-sne) is a different method but still seems to show similar results to the PCAs. I think a key thing here is whether different types of analysis can detect genetic drift, this was something that the poster Skaikorth mentioned a while back, as this might affect the positioning of the Welsh in PCAs.

avalon
04-20-2018, 12:45 PM
Just to add, I think if you were plot to Welsh populations against other continental European and British samples then the drift might be less obvious and the Welsh would not stand out as much.

I think this is a bit like Lucasz is doing with his test but I just don't think he has very good Welsh references at the moment.

JonikW
04-20-2018, 09:44 PM
Talking as we were of Welsh accents, if anyone's got BBC iPlayer, search for Ar Mo Bhealach Fein. It's a wonderful three-part Northern Irish programme retracing the route of Irish writer Seosamh Mac Grianna's epic walk around Wales in the 1930s. If you switch on episode three and start watching in Abermule at 21.20 mins I'd love to know more about the chap's accent with the surname Owens. Welsh sounding but at moments he almost sounds as Irish as the presenter himself. Wonderful bloke.

avalon
04-21-2018, 07:17 AM
Talking as we were of Welsh accents, if anyone's got BBC iPlayer, search for Ar Mo Bhealach Fein. It's a wonderful three-part Northern Irish programme retracing the route of Irish writer Seosamh Mac Grianna's epic walk around Wales in the 1930s. If you switch on episode three and start watching in Abermule at 21.20 mins I'd love to know more about the chap's accent with the surname Owens. Welsh sounding but at moments he almost sounds as Irish as the presenter himself. Wonderful bloke.

Yes, I can see what you mean with his accent, to me it's quite unusual. Abermule is mid Wales Powys so maybe it's an interesting blend to that specific area.

I also liked the mention in that episode of the "Red bandits of Mawddwy" as that is something I've read about a few times- very interesting folklore.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/wales/entries/a506ca46-a671-3642-ac0e-5263814c890f

JonikW
04-21-2018, 09:21 AM
Yes, I can see what you mean with his accent, to me it's quite unusual. Abermule is mid Wales Powys so maybe it's an interesting blend to that specific area.

I also liked the mention in that episode of the "Red bandits of Mawddwy" as that is something I've read about a few times- very interesting folklore.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/wales/entries/a506ca46-a671-3642-ac0e-5263814c890f

Thanks for the fascinating link. I hope you enjoyed the TV programme as much as I did.

Phoebe Watts
04-21-2018, 09:20 PM
One thing I have noticed in North Wales is that the Liverpool influence on the accent is more prevalent along the coast, in the seaside towns. I can't really speak for Anglesey but in some of the strong Welsh speaking communities such as Blaenau Ffestiniog, which I am quite familiar with, you can often tell when someone speaks English that they are a native Welsh speaker - the intonation is Welsh and it lacks the Liverpool influence. I don't speak Welsh myself but I understand the pronounciation and some basic vocab.

Broadly I think the differences in North Wales are between communities that are predominantly English speaking and those that are mainly Welsh speaking.

Yes that's right to some extent but it is more complicated. Holyhead has an interesting accent and even in Caernarfon you'll hear Welsh speakers whe speak English with what sounds like a Liverpool accent.

I did listen to the Liverpool and North Wales parts of the BBC Voices (Accents & Dialects) project a while ago. This over ten years old now so things have moved on, but it is still accessible on the British Library website.

The voices from Flint (members of the male voice choir) sound a bit like Liverpool but you can also hear the signs that they speak Welsh. There is mention in this recording and some of the others that people - especially younger people - are adopting an English accent. That often happens when young people move away to college or for work.

Phoebe Watts
04-21-2018, 10:21 PM
I dug out a few Liverpool references in Borrow's Wild Wales, which covers his journey around the country in 1854. I know this is only one account but it suggests something interesting. A look at the places of birth in Victorian censuses for Liverpool and North Wales would no doubt give a better picture of course.

Borrow was a Welsh speaker and loved to talk to people in that language during his journey. Somewhere not far from Holyhead Borrow meets some men outside a "genteel house" who tell him it belongs to "one Mr Sparrow from Liverpool". One of them tells him that the lands are "almost entirely taken possession of by Saxons". In Llangollen someone tells him that Pengwern Hall there, its farm and several other farms were recently sold "to certain people from Liverpool" who now live there. He also meets a woman born of Anglesea parents in Liverpool who has now returned to Wales, and separately a man who says his wife "has lived at service in Liverpool" and so can speak some English, and another whose brother was "in business in Liverpool".

Also, in Bangor: "It was Saturday night and the house [inn] was thronged with people, who had arrived by train from Manchester and Liverpool, with the intention of passing the Sunday in the Welsh town." He's not very flattering about these folk: "I was not amongst Welsh but the scum of manufacturing England."

This is interesting because it does suggest movement in both directions and an influence of the kind I think Phoebe is suggesting. I think the man whose wife has lived in Liverpool and so can speak English may be key, suggesting that native Welsh speakers' first contact with English in some northern parts may often have been of the Liverpool variety, introducing a kind of standard.

There are some good social histories of the Welsh language that address the influences of employment; education; religion etc as well as inmigration. This is the series that I have access to: http://www.wales.ac.uk/en/CentreforAdvancedWelshCelticStudies/ResearchProjects/CompletedProjects/SocialHistoryoftheWelshLanguage/IntroductiontotheProject.aspx

One book in this series uses the 1891 census (the first to ask about language), and earlier intelligence from the language of church services in particular areas. It is a pity that these aren't more easily accessible.

I don't recall any quotes from Borrow but there were quotes from some earlier writers and commentators. I was by struck a quote from Thomas Pennant that is relevant to my own family history in Flintshire "The Shire [Flintshire]... is extremely populous; and in the mineral parts comprised of a mixed people, whose fathers and had resorted here for sake of employ out of the English mine counties; many of whose children, born of Welsh mothers, have quite lost the language of their forefathers."

I think Borrow's informants were telling him that the landowners were "saeson" rather than "Saxons" - that would just have meant that they were English speakers. The owners of the landed estates, whether they were originally Welsh or Anglo-Norman or more recent, would generally have been educated in English public schools over many generations.

JonikW
04-21-2018, 10:42 PM
There are some good social histories of the Welsh language that address the influences of employment; education; religion etc as well as inmigration. This is the series that I have access to: http://www.wales.ac.uk/en/CentreforAdvancedWelshCelticStudies/ResearchProjects/CompletedProjects/SocialHistoryoftheWelshLanguage/IntroductiontotheProject.aspx

One book in this series uses the 1891 census (the first to ask about language), and earlier intelligence from the language of church services in particular areas. It is a pity that these aren't more easily accessible.

I don't recall any quotes from Borrow but there were quotes from some earlier writers and commentators. I was by struck a quote from Thomas Pennant that is relevant to my own family history in Flintshire "The Shire [Flintshire]... is extremely populous; and in the mineral parts comprised of a mixed people, whose fathers and had resorted here for sake of employ out of the English mine counties; many of whose children, born of Welsh mothers, have quite lost the language of their forefathers."

I think Borrow's informants were telling him that the landowners were "saeson" rather than "Saxons" - that would just have meant that they were English speakers. The owners of the landed estates, whether they were originally Welsh or Anglo-Norman or more recent, would generally have been educated in English public schools over many generations.

Thanks, very interesting Phoebe. But I don't think there were many old landed gentry in Liverpool. I think it more likely that they'd come up over a few generations. It was a city built on the Industrial Revolution where some became rich very quickly. You're right about Saxons because Borrow's informants were speaking Welsh of course.

rms2
04-22-2018, 12:32 AM
As far as I can tell my early ancestors in North America were Methodists and quite enthusiastic Methodists. Some of the relatives in my y-dna line were Methodist preachers as well as farmers.

JonikW
04-22-2018, 08:12 AM
As far as I can tell my early ancestors in North America were Methodists and quite enthusiastic Methodists. Some of the relatives in my y-dna line were Methodist preachers as well as farmers.

Do you know which part of the country your Welsh ancestors were from?

Saetro
04-22-2018, 09:44 PM
As far as I can tell my early ancestors in North America were Methodists and quite enthusiastic Methodists. Some of the relatives in my y-dna line were Methodist preachers as well as farmers.

It was quite normal for preachers who were non-Conformist - Methodist, Baptist, Congregational - to have another profession.
(After all, so did Saul/Paul.)
Perhaps it was a way of people honing their preaching skills and supporting themselves and their families at least while they built their experience, and often longer as their congregations were poor.
Unfortunately they enter themselves in the British census as farmer, miner, whatever, before they disappear off to the colonies.
There are some Methodist histories of circuits and the preachers on them that sometimes give details about preachers.
Have just had a similar case in Cornwall.

Also, quite ordinary people in the country often had a kitchen garden and a cow and some acreage for the cow to graze.
And of course some chickens. And sometimes it was a little more than that.
At what stage does this become farming?
Some of the Lutheran ministers in early Australia seem to have needed to supplement their diet in this way but seem not to have been called farmers.

Whoever they were, circuit preaching must have been really hard work.

sktibo
04-23-2018, 12:28 AM
Just a heads up to the Welsh Anthrogenicans here who have tested with AncestryDNA: They're currently rolling out a new update which has changed how Europe is categorized.
North-Western Europe will now be:
Scotland & Ireland
England & Wales
France
Germanic Europe
Norway
Sweden

I personally don't think it is correct to group Wales with England or with Scotland and Ireland, but I've seen some evidence that it is slightly closer to England than to Scotland/Ireland. Anyhow, hoping some of you have tested with Ancestry so we can see how this new categorization works out for the Welsh. Thanks!

Sebbo
04-23-2018, 08:24 AM
Thanks for the interesting video!

Finn
04-23-2018, 05:50 PM
do you have some "rede genes" too rms2.....I obviously do (even without being Welsh ;)
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14073-HIRISPLEX-S-HIRISPLEX-amp-IRISPLEX-Eye-Hair-and-Skin-colour-DNA-Phenotyping-webtool!

msmarjoribanks
04-26-2018, 06:52 PM
As far as I can tell my early ancestors in North America were Methodists and quite enthusiastic Methodists. Some of the relatives in my y-dna line were Methodist preachers as well as farmers.

From Wales? The area in Wisconsin that my Welsh ancestors went to (well, the ones I know most about, I suspect some of my SE OH ancestors and Shropshire ones were from Wales too) had multiple Welsh language churches, including different versions of Methodists. I haven't figured out which (if any) my relatives attended yet. One branch of my family had gone to a Welsh-speaking Calvinist Methodist church in Wales, but the other seems to have been Anglican, back in Wales anyway.

Different line had a married couple (both born and raised Quaker) who in the 1870 census in Iowa get listed (both of them) as ministers of the gospel, and then in 1880 (in Kansas) get listed as a preacher and preacheress. They were farmers prior to that, and I've always meant to try to find out the details -- their child who I descend from was born in 1841, so they were older by this point.

Phoebe Watts
04-26-2018, 08:30 PM
Welsh nonconformist ministers and elders in Welsh communities the US seem to have left a good paper trail in the 1800s at least. I think Welsh Anglicans were less visible though as they tended to integrate quickly.

There were lots of chapels from several denominations and they can often be traced in the denominational publications and in the Welsh American publications.

There were lots of Welsh chapels in parts of England too. By the 1820s there was a new Welsh anglican church in Liverpool; a chapel of ease to one of the town centre parishes. It was part funded by donations from clergy,gentry and public subscription in North Wales as well as Merseyside. Apparently the King donated £500 and the Corporation of Liverpool donated £350. The registers for this church (St Davids) are useful for researching missing relatives from north and mid Wales as many young people gravitated to Liverpool but only stayed a few years.

JonikW
04-27-2018, 10:27 PM
Is anyone interested in Welsh lovespoons or have any in the family? I think the old tradition was that they were carved as a gift for St Valentine's Day. I remember as a kid one of my Mum's friends had lots that her husband had carved. Some were very intricate with balls that moved inside the handle. My Gran had one that she said was 18th century and carved from apple wood. It's always struck me as a beautiful Welsh tradition.

JonikW
04-27-2018, 10:31 PM
22827

My Gran's lovespoon

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-28-2018, 07:56 AM
Is anyone interested in Welsh lovespoons or have any in the family? I think the old tradition was that they were carved as a gift for St Valentine's Day. I remember as a kid one of my Mum's friends had lots that her husband had carved. Some were very intricate with balls that moved inside the handle. My Gran had one that she said was 18th century and carved from apple wood. It's always struck me as a beautiful Welsh tradition.

I sent personalised hand-carved love spoons to relatives' daughters in America as wedding gifts, Initials, Welsh symbols etc.. You can still get them from various carvers. (not the cheap mass-produced type).

https://www.adamking.co.uk/pages/history-and-meanings

JonikW
05-10-2018, 09:16 AM
This morning's "In Our Time" on BBC Radio 4 was about the Mabinogion. It's well worth listening to on iPlayer if you've got access. Has anyone got a favourite tale? Mine is the Dream of Maxen for its dream vision of a journey to Wales and the two one-line letters sent from Rome and back. It's the shortest too if anyone doesn't fancy tackling the whole book but wants a taster. You can find it for free online.

msmarjoribanks
05-11-2018, 01:09 AM
I mentioned upthread that I have a Welsh match, but haven't been able to determine the connection yet. Of my two most recent Welsh immigrant families, one (the Joneses) have a number of other matches to me, from a few different children of the immigrant couple, and none of them match my Welsh match, so I decided to focus on the other, the Humphreys, and to trace them forward. They also were most proximate to where some of the match's family seems to be from (Welshpool), so although it proved nothing I decided to go with it for now.

My immigrant ancestor was Calvinist Methodist and his father had a slightly less common name than some (Zechariah), and also a farm that was supposedly left to my ancestor's older brother John, called Dolypebyll. It was located in Llangadfan, Montgomeryshire.

A transcription of records from Harrisons Solicitors in Welshpool includes the following (I just have this, not the actual will): Will of John Humphreys, Yeoman, late of Dolypebyll, Montgomeryshire, 26/10/1880. In the same list of transcribed records is Will, (with Valuation of estate and Inland Revenue assessment of Duty, 1880, in respect of John Humphreys, 54 above) of John Richard Humphries, Foreman in a warehouse, of Dolypebyll, Llangadfan, Montgomeryshire 12/4/1929. That is extra interesting, since the census records I found showed John in 1871 at Dolypebyll. He was a widower with several daughters and sons, including John Richard and Zechariah. In 1881 (after he would have died), John Richard and Zechariah are boarders in Llanfyllin, John a labourer and Zechariah a scholar. Zechariah later goes to the US, and lives near where my Humphreys ended up.

I have not figured out what happened to John after this, and have not made any connections to my match, but in googling around I found this, from Y Goleuad, which is described as "A weekly Welsh language newspaper, supportive of liberal politics and which circulated for the Welsh Calvinistic Methodists throughout Wales, including the Welsh of Liverpool, Manchester, London and Bristol. The newspaper's main content reflected the denominational interests and news relating to the Union, while also advocating temperance and radicalism."

10. Darllenodd y Parch. David Pierce adroddiad manwl o'i ymweliad ef a Mr. John Humphreys, Dolypebyll, ag eg'wysi Dosbarth Llanwyddyn. Hefyd, cafwyd adroddiad gffelyb gan y Parch. John Hughes, Cameddau, a Mr. Evan Thomas, Birmingham, o'u hymweliad hwythau ag eglwysi Dosbarth Llanfyllin. Ar ol cryn lawer o ymddiddan buddiol argynwys yr hyn a ddail enasid, penderfynwyd (1.) Ein bod yn dymuno cael y gweddili o'r adroddladall yn ysgrifenedig yn y Cyfarfod Misol nepaf (2.) Fod y broddyr canlynol, -- Y Parchn. John Pritchard, Robert Davies, Edward Griffiths, Owen Hughes, a Mr. Jones, Llanfyllin, i sefyll uwchben y gwahanol adroddiadan ac i gyfansoddi llythyr seiliedid arnynt at yr eglwysi ....

Some of the letters were hard to make out and so it could be mangled. I'm sure some here can make that out better than google's handy-dandy translation does, but using that my best idea of what it might say is: "10. The Rev. David Pierce read a detailed report of his visit to Mr. John Humphreys, Dolypebyll, excluding [??]. There was also a There was also a remarkable report from Rev. John Hughes, Cameddau, and Mr. Evan Thomas, Birmingham, from their visit to the Llanfyllin District churches. After a great deal of beneficial interest...it was decided (1.) That we wish to receive the residual of the report in writing at the nearest Monthly Meeting (2.) That the following traders, - The Reverend John Pritchard, Robert Davies, Edward Griffiths, Owen Hughes, and Mr. Jones, Llanfyllin, to stand above the different reports and to compose a letter of insolation [??] on them to the churches."

Not wildly exciting, but I was just pleased to see that there was some other record of John's existence. It appears he would have died soon after, as the paper is dated Sept 11, 1880.

Phoebe Watts
05-11-2018, 01:25 PM
Not wildly exciting, but I was just pleased to see that there was some other record of John's existence. It appears he would have died soon after, as the paper is dated Sept 11, 1880.

@ msmarjoribanks

Have you found the record of your ancestor John buried at Llangadfan next to his wife? He died 16 September and was buried on 20th. The entry is in the Welsh parish records online at findmypast. There should be an obituary for him in one of the papers too.

The references to Humphreys of Dol-pebyll in the newspaper Y Drych after they have arrived in America are interesting. Zechariah asks for news of his brother John. I wonder if he found him?

msmarjoribanks
05-11-2018, 07:46 PM
Thanks, I did not have that.

msmarjoribanks
05-11-2018, 08:01 PM
Looks like Zechariah immigrated to the US around 1888, when he was 21. Also seems to have made a trip from Liverpool to NYC (and then back to Almira, WA, where he lived) in 1930, which suggests he might have gone back for maybe something related to the death of his brother (John Richard), if that John died in 1929, as the reference to the probate records seemed to suggest.

Is the newspaper you mention suggesting that Zechariah's brother John was in the US? He could have been, as I haven't found him after 1881 other than the reference in the solicitors transcriptions noted above. It does seem that Zechariah joined his uncle Owen and some other relatives who were then in Washington state (in a pretty rural area where he would not have gone just as a coincidence and quite a trip).

Phoebe Watts
05-11-2018, 08:41 PM
Yes, Perhaps you need to search http://newspapers.library.wales and https://journals.library.wales with all the information you already have.

In 1917 the Drych has "YMOFYNIAD AM JOHN HUMPHREYS, gynt o Dol- pebyll, Llangadfan, sir Drefaldwyn. Clywyd oddiwrtho ddiweddaf o Twin Lakes, Colorado, yn y flwyddyn 1901. Y mae oddeutu 52 mlwydd oed. Dy- muna ei frawd gael rhyw air o hys- bysrwydd am dano. Cyfeirier-Zach. Humphreys, Govan, Wash"

In 1888 there was a previous request "YMOFYNIAD AM JOHN HUMPHREYS, gynt o Dolbebyll, Llangadfan, Sir Drelaldwyn. Daeth i'r wlad hon o gwmpas chwe blynedd yn ol, a bu yn gwelthto yn Columbus, Ohio, mewn Foundry. Symudodd oddlyno I Minneapolis, Minn., lie y gwelthlal mewn Foundry dair blynedd yn ol. Mae tua 25 mlwydd oed. Byddaf yn dra dlolch- gar am el gyfelrlad, am el fod yn dra. phwyslg Iddo ef at berthynasan yn yr Hen Wlad gael hyd Iddo yn fuan. Oyfelrier-OWEN HUMPHREYS, Heeseltlne, Lincoln Co., Wash. Ter. 21"

There are several references in Y Drych to Owen and his nephew Zach; as well as the usual family notices. Owen is credited with a part in founding Big Bend - I'm not sure if that is a reference to founding a chapel or a town.

msmarjoribanks
05-12-2018, 05:00 AM
Yeah, that looks like a great source.

Big Bend country is an area of eastern Washington state where there was a Welsh settlement and Welsh church at one point, and Owen was an early settler of the area (he lived before then in Wisconsin and Minnesota, but went to Washington sometime around the mid 1870s). Could have meant that. Owen and his wife Jane and oldest son are all buried in the Welsh Cemetery there too, and he was naturalized there in 1880 (many years after coming to the US, he started but did not complete it much earlier). Anyway, I'd like to do some local research around there at some point.

If John was in the US like Zechariah, neither of them is the ancestor of my match, so I can concentrate on their sisters and aunts and uncles for now.

Phoebe Watts
05-12-2018, 10:43 AM
It should be quite easy to find the rest of the family in Wales in the census and parish records etc. as well as the newspapers.

By the 1900s some of the emigrants were coming back to visit or to stay - two of my emigrant uncles came back to live after many years.

Sadly, they didn't find John Richard. The probate for 1929 records an assumption of death on or since 13 February 1902 at some place unknown. ( from England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations) at Ancestry).

Phoebe Watts
05-12-2018, 12:26 PM
This morning's "In Our Time" on BBC Radio 4 was about the Mabinogion. It's well worth listening to on iPlayer if you've got access. Has anyone got a favourite tale? Mine is the Dream of Maxen for its dream vision of a journey to Wales and the two one-line letters sent from Rome and back. It's the shortest too if anyone doesn't fancy tackling the whole book but wants a taster. You can find it for free online.

No favourite tale but I read the pedair cainc when I was very young and still find them fascinating. Part of the cultural and environmental fabric too. I would mention Culhwch ac Olwen, if only for the giant's name "Yspaddaden Pencawr".

JonikW
06-26-2018, 03:31 PM
Does anyone know how far into Herefordshire, Shropshire etc the Welsh population extended in Medieval times? I used to holiday in Shropshire as a kid at a place with a hillfort with a beautiful view of the Welsh hills (on my avatar with my dear late Mother in the middle, my brother and I with our homemade bows). Great memories.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-26-2018, 04:18 PM
Does anyone know how far into Herefordshire, Shropshire etc the Welsh population extended in Medieval times? I used to holiday in Shropshire as a kid at a place with a hillfort with a beautiful view of the Welsh hills (on my avatar with my dear late Mother in the middle, my brother and I with our homemade bows). Great memories.

If you mean people with Welsh ancestry, there are an awful lot of people with Welsh surnames in Herefordshire and I suspect it would be the same in the other English border Counties. In my own maternal family from near Leominster, we have Morgan, Gough, Bethel, Bevan, Powell and Williams that I know of. In fact there are far more Welsh surnames than English in my maternal family from Herefordshire.
I would guess the closer you are to the border, the more Welsh surnames and place names you will find.

Here is a University of Wales link on a study of Welsh place names in Shropshire:-
"we shall be preparing a study of the Welsh names of the county. We will devote a substantial volume to the two hundreds of Clun, in the south-west, and Oswestry, in the north-west, where the Welsh language has contributed extensively to local toponymy. Here there are dozens of Welsh-named villages and hamlets, such as Bettws-y-Crwyn, Llanvair Waterdine, Llanymynech, Trefarclawdd and Argoed; and there are many hundreds of houses and fields with names like Rhyd y Cwm, Pencraig, The Maes and Vron. The first aim of the volume will be to document historic spellings for all place-names in the area, from towns and villages to the least of enclosures, woods, streams and streets. Many of these will be English, many Welsh, and many will illustrate the interface, and sometimes interplay, between the languages. Our second aim is to explain the linguistic origins, the meaning, of the names, as far as possible."

http://www.wales.ac.uk/en/CentreforAdvancedWelshCelticStudies/ResearchProjects/CurrentProjects/Place-Names-of-Shropshire/IntroductiontotheProject.aspx

msmarjoribanks
06-26-2018, 05:39 PM
The thing that confuses me about that question when thinking about it myself, in connection with my Shropshire ancestry, is what does "Welsh" mean in that context. If you'd done a DNA analysis at various points, most likely the population near the border would have been similar, with a gradual shift as you moved away from the border, I assume, nothing to indicate two clearly distinct populations. And I think Welsh would have been commonly spoken at least in parts of the border counties -- that might be a question to focus on.

In looking at parish records and census records, you see lots of Welsh names, some of which show movement from Wales to Shropshire (and I'd assume Herefordshire), but others which seem to be there from when the parish records first exist.

Random "I'm dumb" anecdote is that when I decided to trace forward what happened to the siblings of my ancestor who left Shropshire for the London area around 1840, one of them married a man named Price (common name, I thought nothing of it except that I was tired of common names). But then I had trouble finding them in the records until I realized they were quite often referred to as Preece or even Preese. Since the names sound quite distinctive to my ears and I think of Price as a common, easy surname (like Jones!), I was puzzled at first til it hit me that, duh, ap Rhys would have been the origin of Price so of course they are the same name and Preece would make sense as a spelling.

JonikW
06-26-2018, 05:56 PM
Those replies are very interesting. I was indeed thinking of people who spoke Welsh and had Welsh names. I imagine there is still a lot of admixture going on around the border. I'm from Bristol (not in the Borders as such but a stone's throw from Wales) and I knew several kids at school who had an English father and Welsh mother (always that way round, interestingly). Back to Shropshire, one of my colleagues at work recently said he's from there and half Welsh.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-26-2018, 08:35 PM
The thing that confuses me about that question when thinking about it myself, in connection with my Shropshire ancestry, is what does "Welsh" mean in that context. If you'd done a DNA analysis at various points, most likely the population near the border would have been similar, with a gradual shift as you moved away from the border, I assume, nothing to indicate two clearly distinct populations. And I think Welsh would have been commonly spoken at least in parts of the border counties -- that might be a question to focus on.

In looking at parish records and census records, you see lots of Welsh names, some of which show movement from Wales to Shropshire (and I'd assume Herefordshire), but others which seem to be there from when the parish records first exist.

Random "I'm dumb" anecdote is that when I decided to trace forward what happened to the siblings of my ancestor who left Shropshire for the London area around 1840, one of them married a man named Price (common name, I thought nothing of it except that I was tired of common names). But then I had trouble finding them in the records until I realized they were quite often referred to as Preece or even Preese. Since the names sound quite distinctive to my ears and I think of Price as a common, easy surname (like Jones!), I was puzzled at first til it hit me that, duh, ap Rhys would have been the origin of Price so of course they are the same name and Preece would make sense as a spelling.

Of course there was always some "drift" of people both ways across the border but I suspect a fair proportion of them (those with Welsh surnames in the English border counties) have always been there. The clue is in the use of Welsh place names which indicates a substantial Welsh speaking population. I know parts of West Herefordshire were at least partly Welsh speaking well into the 1800's and use of the Welsh patronymic naming system (your Price/Preece) didn't completely disappear until the early 1600's.
I suppose a border is a line on a map which divides one country from another but the reality on the ground is not so clear cut. :)

JonikW
06-26-2018, 09:11 PM
I agree John. I was just saying to my wife (we were talking about the World Cup and relations with Russia where we lived and where her parents are) that politicians ruin everything. Them and their arbitrary lines on the map...

Phoebe Watts
06-26-2018, 09:32 PM
In 1563, the four Welsh Bishops, together with the Bishop of Hereford were instructed to translate the Bible into Welsh. This followed closely from Edward VI's 1549 Act of Uniformity, which came into law in 1552 and required all acts of public worship to be conducted in English instead of Latin. It does suggest, doesn't it, that there were Welsh speaking congregations in Herefordshire at that time. And as others have mentioned, there is evidence in personal names and local history well after that date.

The border with England has been quite permeable too. A visit to the cathedrals at Chester or Hereford show how much Welsh presence there was in these border cities through the centuries.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-27-2018, 06:57 AM
In 1563, the four Welsh Bishops, together with the Bishop of Hereford were instructed to translate the Bible into Welsh. This followed closely from Edward VI's 1549 Act of Uniformity, which came into law in 1552 and required all acts of public worship to be conducted in English instead of Latin. It does suggest, doesn't it, that there were Welsh speaking congregations in Herefordshire at that time. And as others have mentioned, there is evidence in personal names and local history well after that date.

The border with England has been quite permeable too. A visit to the cathedrals at Chester or Hereford show how much Welsh presence there was in these border cities through the centuries.

Ewyas Lacy where my paternal ancestors lived was a particularly "Welsh" corner of Herefordshire. I believe it was never included in the Anglo Saxon system of law administration and until 1852 was part of the Diocese of St.Davids and Archdeaconry of Brecon rather than Hereford.
I don't know if you have heard of a quite famous book and film about "Welsh" rural life "On the Black Hill". It is located in this area of Herefordshire and Is said to be based to some extent on two real-life local brothers named Howells. (I do wonder about a possible family connection). I think it shows lines on a map don't always fit local culture and a way of life .
"They set out at dawn - by foot, on horseback and even by four- wheeled motorcycles - going up into the mists of the Black Mountains. On the isolated Herefordshire hills the farmers round up more than 10,000 lost lambs from Hay Bluff and Catsback to the Black Hill. Supported by a small army of sheep dogs, they comb every nook and cranny and pen the sheep into flocks high on the mountain side.

Once a year, as they and previous generations have done for the last century-and-a-half, the farmers gather the strays until the sound of bleating on the hillside has been silenced."

"Clusters of hill farmers gather in the yard to collect their animals beneath the steeply sloping mountain made famous by Bruce Chatwin's best- selling novel On The Black Hill, which portrayed the isolation of farming life in the area."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/a-shepherds-day-to-remember-1250705.html

JonikW
06-27-2018, 07:07 AM
That's a great book. Another good Welsh Borders read is Country Dance by Margiad Evans. How about this for a quote. Good stuff. "All old stories, even the authenticated, even the best remembered, are painted in greys and lavenders – dim, faint hues of the past which do no more than whisper of the glory of colour they once possessed. Yet live awhile in these remote places where these pale pictures were painted, and something of their first freshness will return to them, if only in the passing of a homestead or the mowing of a field. You will come to know how the dead may hold tenure of lands that were once theirs, and how echoes of their lives that are lost at a distance linger about their doorways. Here among the hills and valleys, the tall trees and swift rivers, the bland pastures and sullen woods, lie long shadows of things that have been. But new furrows are ploughed in old fields, harvests are sown and gathered, and names that sprang from the red earth itself have died away to a faint murmur which only native ears attuned may hear."

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-27-2018, 12:17 PM
That's a great book. Another good Welsh Borders read is Country Dance by Margiad Evans. How about this for a quote. Good stuff. "All old stories, even the authenticated, even the best remembered, are painted in greys and lavenders – dim, faint hues of the past which do no more than whisper of the glory of colour they once possessed. Yet live awhile in these remote places where these pale pictures were painted, and something of their first freshness will return to them, if only in the passing of a homestead or the mowing of a field. You will come to know how the dead may hold tenure of lands that were once theirs, and how echoes of their lives that are lost at a distance linger about their doorways. Here among the hills and valleys, the tall trees and swift rivers, the bland pastures and sullen woods, lie long shadows of things that have been. But new furrows are ploughed in old fields, harvests are sown and gathered, and names that sprang from the red earth itself have died away to a faint murmur which only native ears attuned may hear."

That's a beautiful piece of writing. I particularly like:-
"All old stories, even the authenticated, even the best remembered, are painted in greys and lavenders – dim, faint hues of the past which do no more than whisper of the glory of colour they once possessed."
I often pass old long-abandoned farm houses or cottages and wonder about the lives that were lived there.
I've often wondered about your avatar photo. Now I understand it's significance.

JonikW
06-27-2018, 12:54 PM
That's a beautiful piece of writing. I particularly like:-
"All old stories, even the authenticated, even the best remembered, are painted in greys and lavenders – dim, faint hues of the past which do no more than whisper of the glory of colour they once possessed."
I often pass old long-abandoned farm houses or cottages and wonder about the lives that were lived there.
I've often wondered about your avatar photo. Now I understand it's significance.

Thanks John. Really appreciate that. I put that quote into a Google doc I did about my late Mum's family and the various places I'd traced them to around the Borders. Among others, I shared it with a distant cousin on that side who I found through 23andme. Mark Jones, born Llanvair Discoed in 1821, was our common great, great grandfather. I think that quote with its evoking of those who are long gone but still with us mirrors what we enjoy discovering in our DNA.

msmarjoribanks
06-27-2018, 03:55 PM
That's a great book. Another good Welsh Borders read is Country Dance by Margiad Evans. How about this for a quote. Good stuff. "All old stories, even the authenticated, even the best remembered, are painted in greys and lavenders – dim, faint hues of the past which do no more than whisper of the glory of colour they once possessed. Yet live awhile in these remote places where these pale pictures were painted, and something of their first freshness will return to them, if only in the passing of a homestead or the mowing of a field. You will come to know how the dead may hold tenure of lands that were once theirs, and how echoes of their lives that are lost at a distance linger about their doorways. Here among the hills and valleys, the tall trees and swift rivers, the bland pastures and sullen woods, lie long shadows of things that have been. But new furrows are ploughed in old fields, harvests are sown and gathered, and names that sprang from the red earth itself have died away to a faint murmur which only native ears attuned may hear."

You convinced me to buy it. I've also had the Chatwin book for ages but have not read it, moving it up to the top of my mental to be read pile.

JonikW
06-27-2018, 04:16 PM
You convinced me to buy it. I've also had the Chatwin book for ages but have not read it, moving it up to the top of my mental to be read pile.

Good decision. I've got the Kindle version. It's part of the Library of Wales series, all of which are available in that format. That's the best of the ones I've read. Really conjures up times past in that landscape. EDIT: looks like the Kindle version isn't available on the US Amazon site for some bizarre reason. I see the paperback is though.

JonikW
06-28-2018, 12:21 AM
Has anyone got a favourite Welsh saint? Non and Tewdrig are biggies, but David has to be number one. When I was at primary school in the 1970s we had four houses representing the Isles, St George, St Andrew, St Patrick and St David. I was so pleased to have been allocated St David given my Welsh family. Here's an icon of our national saint that I painted last year (my wife is Orthodox so I'm interested in that tradition). Incidentally given forum rules, I'm posting this in the spirit of cultural history and I respect other people's beliefs. It's interesting that many of the Welsh saints were also venerated in Cornwall and Brittany in a Celtic fusion of a kind. ADD: I modelled the bell and staff on artefacts of the time that I'd seen in Dublin and I painted on wood. So here's my Saint David of Wales Dewi Sant icon.

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JMcB
06-28-2018, 02:51 AM
Has anyone got a favourite Welsh saint? Non and Tewdrig are biggies, but David has to be number one. When I was at primary school in the 1970s we had four houses representing the Isles, St George, St Andrew, St Patrick and St David. I was so pleased to have been allocated St David given my Welsh family. Here's an icon of our national saint that I painted last year (my wife is Orthodox so I'm interested in that tradition). Incidentally given forum rules, I'm posting this in the spirit of cultural history and I respect other people's beliefs. It's interesting that many of the Welsh saints were also venerated in Cornwall and Brittany in a Celtic fusion of a kind. ADD: I modelled the bell and staff on artefacts of the time that I'd seen in Dublin and I painted on wood. So here's my Saint David of Wales Dewi Sant icon.

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Very nice, indeed, JonikW!

Back in the 1990s, I used to volunteer on archaeological digs in Israel and Jordan and during my time there, I picked up some beautifully done hand painted Icons and your’s is right up there!

Well done!

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-28-2018, 06:38 AM
Has anyone got a favourite Welsh saint? Non and Tewdrig are biggies, but David has to be number one. When I was at primary school in the 1970s we had four houses representing the Isles, St George, St Andrew, St Patrick and St David. I was so pleased to have been allocated St David given my Welsh family. Here's an icon of our national saint that I painted last year (my wife is Orthodox so I'm interested in that tradition). Incidentally given forum rules, I'm posting this in the spirit of cultural history and I respect other people's beliefs. It's interesting that many of the Welsh saints were also venerated in Cornwall and Brittany in a Celtic fusion of a kind. ADD: I modelled the bell and staff on artefacts of the time that I'd seen in Dublin and I painted on wood. So here's my Saint David of Wales Dewi Sant icon.

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I'm afraid I can't claim any great knowledge of religious matters but I respect others' beliefs. My father and his brothers all had Saints' names (English and Welsh) either as first or middle names. I don't know why this is but have wondered if the combined English and Welsh may reflect their border origins to some extent.
My father was John Oswald, his brothers Augustine, Illtyd, Teilo.
A very impressive piece of work.

JonikW
06-28-2018, 07:03 AM
Thanks JMcB, I've got a few that I picked up in various parts of eastern Europe, including a lovely hand-painted St John the Baptist that was the equivalent of only £7 in a church shop in Bulgaria last October.
John, those names are truly awesome.

Phoebe Watts
06-28-2018, 08:36 AM
Has anyone got a favourite Welsh saint? Non and Tewdrig are biggies, but David has to be number one. When I was at primary school in the 1970s we had four houses representing the Isles, St George, St Andrew, St Patrick and St David. I was so pleased to have been allocated St David given my Welsh family. Here's an icon of our national saint that I painted last year (my wife is Orthodox so I'm interested in that tradition). Incidentally given forum rules, I'm posting this in the spirit of cultural history and I respect other people's beliefs. It's interesting that many of the Welsh saints were also venerated in Cornwall and Brittany in a Celtic fusion of a kind. ADD: I modelled the bell and staff on artefacts of the time that I'd seen in Dublin and I painted on wood. So here's my Saint David of Wales Dewi Sant icon.

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The lives of the saints give fascinating insight into the history of the Britain of the early middle ages. I was taken with the history of Padrig; and of Cyndeyrn/Kentigern/Mungo and the way they covered such different parts of these islands.

I wouldn't have thought of Non and Tewdrig as "biggies". Do they have links to the Orthodox tradition though? I might choose Dewi, Illtud, Teilo and Gwennffrewi as the "biggies". Linking to a very recent discussion on another thread, Illtud was from Ewyas, near the modern border.

Perhaps the best known saints in Anglesey these days - Dwynwen, saint of lovers; a sort of Welsh St Valentine. And Cybi and Seiriol, linked to Ynys Cybi and Ynys Seiriol, islands to the extreme West and East of Anglesey. The tradition is that Cybi and Seiriol walked across Anglesey regularly to meet each other at holy wells at the centre of the island.

JonikW
06-28-2018, 09:41 AM
Fascinating. I think of Non as important because she was Dewi's mother and it's still a popular name. As for Tewdrig, you're right really of course. I think he's always loomed large for me because he was a king who became a hermit. I don't remember Cybi and Seiriol . What a touching story. Yes, one thing that has struck me in particular is the insight the lives give into the time, particularly the regular journeys from Wales, to Ireland, Cornwall and Brittany. All the main saints are also venerated in the Orthodox tradition. Oh, and I shouldn't forget Julius and Aaron, the Roman martyrs.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-28-2018, 12:01 PM
My great grandfather John is buried in the churchyard of Patricio or Patrishow church just outside Abergavenny. His sons, including my grandfather, were stone masons and worked on the restoration of the Church in the early 1900's.
Supposedly a hermit named Issui was murdered by a traveller and is buried beneath the Church. There is a Holy Well at the bottom of the hill below the church. It's a very remote and peaceful place and it really feels like time has stood still there. Well worth a visit if you are able to find it.
It's quite possible I think that it was my relatives who may have found what could be Issui's bones during the restoration work. I guess they were left where they were. Analysis of the bones would be interesting. My grandfather's brother, according to family tradition, carved a pilgrim's cross into the steps near the Holy Well during his lunch break, copying similar crosses in the church, although the guide book says, possibly incorrectly, the step cross is medieval. Could my relatives also have carved an extra cross inside the church maybe?

"The grave site is beneath the altar and is marked by a slab incised with 6 small consecration crosses, one more than the usual 5 crosses. Is this really the site of Issui's grave? Well perhaps it is, for during restoration work in 1908 human bones were found under the chapel wall. "

https://www.britainexpress.com/attractions.htm?attraction=631

A wall painting which still survives inside the church reminds us that our days are numbered.

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JonikW
06-28-2018, 12:16 PM
Wonderful. Is this the cross, John? If so Sarah and John Zaluckyj mention it in The Celtic Christian Sites of the Central and Southern Marches and say it was "perhaps carved by an early pilgrim".

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msmarjoribanks
06-28-2018, 01:01 PM
Area of complete ignorance for me, beyond St. David, but something new to read up on.

On one side of my Welsh family, one of the parishes from which I have family records (in addition to Trefriw) is Llanrhychwyn, which seems to mean this church: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Rhychwyn.

Can't find much on St Rhychwyn other than what's in that wiki entry, but the church looks like a place I need to visit.

JonikW
06-28-2018, 01:47 PM
Area of complete ignorance for me, beyond St. David, but something new to read up on.

On one side of my Welsh family, one of the parishes from which I have family records (in addition to Trefriw) is Llanrhychwyn, which seems to mean this church: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Rhychwyn.

Can't find much on St Rhychwyn other than what's in that wiki entry, but the church looks like a place I need to visit.

I've got a couple of good books on the Welsh saints and he doesn't appear to be in them unfortunately. I looked for both variants of the name on the Wikipedia page.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-28-2018, 04:48 PM
Wonderful. Is this the cross, John? If so Sarah and John Zaluckyj mention it in The Celtic Christian Sites of the Central and Southern Marches and say it was "perhaps carved by an early pilgrim".

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Yes, I believe so. It is a few years since I was there. As I recall there were a few steps near the well and I found the carved cross. Of course if it pre-dates 1908 the family story wouldn't be true but I can't see why someone would make the story up and pass it down the generations but I suppose you never know. :)

JonikW
06-28-2018, 05:05 PM
Yes, I believe so. It is a few years since I was there. As I recall there were a few steps near the well and I found the carved cross. Of course if it pre-dates 1908 the family story wouldn't be true but I can't see why someone would make the story up and pass it down the generations but I suppose you never know. :)

Your family story could well be true. Thanks for sharing it John.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-28-2018, 07:46 PM
Your family story could well be true. Thanks for sharing it John.

Well, I suppose it's as likely as a passing pilgrim who just happened to have a heavy hammer and chisel with him. ;)

JonikW
06-28-2018, 07:57 PM
Well, I suppose it's as likely as a passing pilgrim who just happened to have a heavy hammer and chisel with him. ;)

Good point well made! Plus, it was obviously executed by someone experienced. If you or I tried to do that we'd make a hash of it. Of course the ancestral skill could always be in your DNA John. Perhaps there's a stone-carving SNP.:)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-29-2018, 06:07 AM
Good point well made! Plus, it was obviously executed by someone experienced. If you or I tried to do that we'd make a hash of it. Of course the ancestral skill could always be in your DNA John. Perhaps there's a stone-carving SNP.:)

My relatives were quite capable of carving a small stone cross, my grandfather was a monumental mason. :) I'm afraid I have no skill that I know of but then again never had the opportunity to learn. About a mile from Patricio church is the farmhouse where they lived. A number of "practice" pieces were found near the farmhouse and when it was restored they were built into the walls. I've been there and seen them.
You have probably seen this before but I'm afraid I never tire of sharing it, my great grandfather's headstone at Patricio probably carved by my grandfather. It must have taken ages to carve.

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JonikW
06-29-2018, 08:07 AM
My relatives were quite capable of carving a small stone cross, my grandfather was a monumental mason. :) I'm afraid I have no skill that I know of but then again never had the opportunity to learn. About a mile from Patricio church is the farmhouse where they lived. A number of "practice" pieces were found near the farmhouse and when it was restored they were built into the walls. I've been there and seen them.
You have probably seen this before but I'm afraid I never tire of sharing it, my great grandfather's headstone at Patricio probably carved by my grandfather. It must have taken ages to carve.

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That really is a true masterpiece of the genre. As you know, some of those motifs feature on early medieval stonework in your local area, but not carved to that standard.

Phoebe Watts
06-29-2018, 03:45 PM
Area of complete ignorance for me, beyond St. David, but something new to read up on.

On one side of my Welsh family, one of the parishes from which I have family records (in addition to Trefriw) is Llanrhychwyn, which seems to mean this church: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Rhychwyn.

Can't find much on St Rhychwyn other than what's in that wiki entry, but the church looks like a place I need to visit.

Many of these saints are really old - often fifth and sixth century - and the written histories date from the tenth century say. Some of the written history includes a lot of myth. In the lists of early saints you'll see several families of saints. Rhychwyn, with Celynin, Bodfan, Brothen, Peris, Boda and Gwynin are said to be the sons of Helig ap Glannog from the North Wales coastal inundation legend. Apparently Brychan Brycheiniog, said to be a C5th king in Brycheiniog, had anything up to sixty something children. More than twenty were listed as saints but the names, which also appear in the traditions of Brittany, Cornwall and Ireland don't agree. So the life stories and genealogies of the lesser known saints at least have to taken with a pinch of salt. There are similar lists for the descendants of Cunedda and Caw from north british kingdoms.

There has been some recent research - I haven't found anything that's accessible. This might be interesting: http://www.welshsaints.ac.uk/

"There is not a land of like size in all Christendom with so many saints in it as were of old among Welshmen"

jdean
06-29-2018, 04:32 PM
Just came across this and was quietly amused : )


Distribution of average male height in Europe

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JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-29-2018, 08:20 PM
Just came across this and was quietly amused : )


Distribution of average male height in Europe

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I was looking at some information on recruits in the Monmouthshire Militia in the late 1800's. Most of them were around the 5 feet four
mark. I didn't see any much taller. Of course that was probably largely down to poor diet and living conditions, same was true in WWI.

JonikW
06-29-2018, 08:37 PM
I was looking at some information on recruits in the Monmouthshire Militia in the late 1800's. Most of them were around the 5 feet four
mark. I didn't see any much taller. Of course that was probably largely down to poor diet and living conditions, same was true in WWI.

You may not agree of course but I think a lot of the South Welsh are short, based on my own observations. My grandfather was a fair bit shorter than me and I'm on the shorter side. He must have only been about five foot five. Down the mines at 14 though and seriously never a day sick in his life. He died in his 80s too. I always felt I got my height from my Welsh ancestry. My mum was only five foot tall. ADD: on the diet side, I did eat instant mash a lot as a kid...

moesan
06-29-2018, 09:00 PM
Please, don't rely too much on this map, very inaccurate I think for some regions

jdean
06-29-2018, 10:22 PM
Please, don't rely too much on this map, very inaccurate I think for some regions

I expect you're right but it's how Wales was reported that amused me : )

JonikW
06-29-2018, 10:44 PM
I expect you're right but it's how Wales was reported that amused me : )

Me too. I feel at home in Wales and Sardinia heightwise in particular (I'm tall in Sardinia). I like to think of myself as "fun size". :)My son is 17 and the same height as me and seems to have a complex about it. I never even thought about it at that age. I think Bristolians were shorter then than today's Kentish kids. Perhaps it was the proximity to Monmouthshire and the data (and genes) that John mentioned.

jdean
06-29-2018, 10:56 PM
Me too. I feel at home in Wales and Sardinia heightwise in particular (I'm tall in Sardinia). I like to think of myself as "fun size". :)My son is 17 and the same height as me and seems to have a complex about it. I never even thought about it at that age. I think Bristolians were shorter then than today's Kentish kids. Perhaps it was the proximity to Monmouthshire and the data (and genes) that John mentioned.

I'm actually quite tall as far as the Welsh are concerned but dwarfed by my cousins on my father's side, I'm taller than all my cousins on my mum's side though who all have more Welsh ancestry than me. However my paternal great grandfather who was 1/2 Welsh was a giant of a man who would be placed at the back of group photos next to people stood on chairs and he was still taller : )

rms2
06-30-2018, 01:34 AM
I'm 6-1 and the eldest of my siblings. My brother Daniel, a year behind me, is 6-0, but our youngest brother, James (Jim) is 6-2. My sister Julie is about average height for a woman (5-5? 5-6?).

Our second great grandfather is described in a contemporary written record as a "giant", but I don't know exactly tall how he was. Probably well over six feet, judging from that appellation.

msmarjoribanks
06-30-2018, 04:02 AM
I have some Civil War enlistment records that give height, so I was looking around at CW and WW1 draft records (and a couple of CW solider records) to see if I had any luck with the Welsh ancestors, but no. One of my Welsh immigrant ancestors (Owen Humphreys) registered for the draft (he was late 40s), but they didn't take down height. His youngest son registered for the WW1 draft (age 41), and was described as tall (blue eyes, light hair, medium build), but no numbers. My great-grandfather (son of Owen's daughter and her English-born husband (but of Shropshire Joneses) also registered for the draft and was described as tall, medium build, dark hair, grey eyes (I have some pictures of the English husband and his family and they were all quite dark-haired, but they aren't around non family members so I can't tell height).

On the other side (my Welsh Jones immigrants), I have a CW soldier with no height information in the records I have, and then in the next generation some WW1 records, medium height, dark hair, eye colors both blue and brown.

I do have access to a couple of (not great) photos of Owen, from which I can say he eventually had a white head of hair and beard, and was quite a bit taller than his wife. ;-)

msmarjoribanks
06-30-2018, 04:14 AM
On a totally different subject, I finished Margiad Evans' County Dance (recommended on this thread a couple days ago by JonikW), and it was great.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-30-2018, 06:20 AM
You may not agree of course but I think a lot of the South Welsh are short, based on my own observations. My grandfather was a fair bit shorter than me and I'm on the shorter side. He must have only been about five foot five. Down the mines at 14 though and seriously never a day sick in his life. He died in his 80s too. I always felt I got my height from my Welsh ancestry. My mum was only five foot tall. ADD: on the diet side, I did eat instant mash a lot as a kid...

I do agree that overall the Welsh do tend to be on the shorter side, not all of course. I guess part of this may be genetic, however I'm not sure how much environmental factors like diet and maybe even air quality ( I'm thinking of the former industrial areas) may have contributed to that. A lot of people moved into South Wales of course from other regions.
My perception is that young people in this part of Wales are significantly taller than people were when I was young in the 1950's and 1960's but that is just my perception. My mother was 5 feet 2, (but not to be messed with :) ) my father about 5 feet 6. My uncle was 6 feet and that used to be considered tall in the old days. The minimum height for a man to join the police force was 5 feet 8 inches in the days when they tried to recruit taller men.
If you look at the Welsh Rugby team compared with their English counterparts, (applies also to some other countries) the Welsh have always been smaller, maybe that's down to the English population being much larger so they have a bigger pool of players to select from. I don't think the size differences are quite as obvious these days though.

JonikW
06-30-2018, 09:52 AM
I'm 6-1 and the eldest of my siblings. My brother Daniel, a year behind me, is 6-0, but our youngest brother, James (Jim) is 6-2. My sister Julie is about average height for a woman (5-5? 5-6?).

Our second great grandfather is described in a contemporary written record as a "giant", but I don't know exactly tall how he was. Probably well over six feet, judging from that appellation.

I meet a lot of tall Americans. The only shorter one I've known is an Armenian American friend from New York who sees eye to eye with me in more ways than one! I always assumed the American tallness you see among typical US tourists here might sometimes be a Midwest Scandinavian or German thing. My Welsh family were all short. Maybe it was from generations of breeding them for mining.:) I felt right at home potholing deep underground on the Mendips at weekends as a kid. Just wanted to add, I'm so glad you enjoyed the book msmarjoribanks.

rms2
07-01-2018, 11:01 AM
I meet a lot of tall Americans. The only shorter one I've known is an Armenian American friend from New York who sees eye to eye with me in more ways than one! I always assumed the American tallness you see among typical US tourists here might sometimes be a Midwest Scandinavian or German thing. My Welsh family were all short. Maybe it was from generations of breeding them for mining.:) I felt right at home potholing deep underground on the Mendips at weekends as a kid. Just wanted to add, I'm so glad you enjoyed the book msmarjoribanks.

Of course, we're not 100% Welsh. We do have quite a few Welsh lines in our pedigree, including our y-dna, surname line, but otherwise we're American mutts: Welsh, Scots, Irish, English, French, German Swiss, and Dutch.

JonikW
07-01-2018, 11:06 AM
Of course, we're not 100% Welsh. We do have quite a few Welsh lines in our pedigree, including our y-dna, surname line, but otherwise we're American mutts: Welsh, Scots, Irish, English, French, German Swiss, and Dutch.

My grandmother always said "mongrels" are healthiest. That was what she considered us to be. :)

rms2
07-01-2018, 11:15 AM
My grandmother always said "mongrels" are healthiest. That was what she considered us to be. :)

I'll never forget some years ago when a Polish woman told me I looked like, in her words, "Some sort of Irish mongrel."

:biggrin1:

JonikW
08-05-2018, 09:27 PM
I'm in Russia with my wife's family for the next month. Enjoying myself but thinking of home in the heat of a Moscow summer. No one's posted on this excellent thread for a while so I thought I'd ask whether anyone here is related to one of the old Welsh houses. I've no way of proving it but my grandmother (primarily Lewis and Watkins from Breconshire) always said that she was of Ifor Bach's line. I used to think of that while passing through his lands as a child. The wider Welsh princes were pretty prolific, so perhaps someone here has the blood of Llewellyn or Glendwr in their veins. I'd be interested to hear about it if so. Any haplogroup info would be a bonus.

msmarjoribanks
08-05-2018, 09:44 PM
Does anyone know what the best YDNA sampling for Wales is, if there's a study published? I know about the maps at Eupedia and this chart: https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/britain_ireland_dna.shtml#maps, but was just wondering if there was anything more.

Also, has there ever been a publication about mtDNA in the British Isles (including Wales)? I expect mtDNA is too diffuse, at least at the U/H/K/T level they usually give, to show any differences, but figured I'd ask.

On other news, my effort to find a link with my distant Welsh cousin has not yet been successful. One thing I noticed is that his lines go to the following places (dates are birth places of earliest known ancestor): 1800 Ruabon, Wrexham (Welsh surname), 1895 Ruabon (same), 1828 Shropshire (English surname), 1860 Wrexham (Welsh surname), 1858 Brymbo (Welsh surname), and a few unknown female lines. While I have been assuming these link to one of my Welsh lines moving out of Llangadfan, Montgomershire, or Trefriw, Caernarvonshire, looking at it again makes me wonder if it could be a connection with the Shropshire side of my family moving into Wales.

In any case, I have to go back a couple of generations prior to the immigrant ancestors, I think, which means pre census, and with his the common names make tracing backwards hard (as I know those experienced with Welsh research can understand).

msmarjoribanks
08-05-2018, 09:49 PM
I'm in Russia with my wife's family for the next month. Enjoying myself but thinking of home in the heat of a Moscow summer. No one's posted on this excellent thread for a while so I thought I'd ask whether anyone here is related to one of the old Welsh houses. I've no way of proving it but my grandmother (primarily Lewis and Watkins from Breconshire) always said that she was of Ifor Bach's line. I used to think of that while passing through his lands as a child. The wider Welsh princes were pretty prolific, so perhaps someone here has the blood of Llewellyn or Glendwr in their veins. I'd be interested to hear about it if so. Any haplogroup info would be a bonus.

Ha! I was just posting in part for the same reason, because I'd love for the thread to get started again.

Can't help with a royal connection, but I'd love to know what haplogroups we think they are (if there has been any good information gathered). As I mentioned on another thread, I moved not terribly long ago and so have had an excuse to organize books and keep finding books I had forgotten I had, one of which is called Welsh Kings: Warriors, Warlords, and Princes. What I had not noticed before is that it's by someone named Maund (lecturer at Cardiff University), and one of my Shropshire family names is Maund (the name is supposed to be from Herefordshire). Wonder the author and I are distant relatives (even if not to the kings).

JonikW
08-05-2018, 09:52 PM
A month of no posts on this thread and then two together within minutes. Re the last, I'd be interested in any mtDNA info in particular. I'd like to save up and test my line at FTDNA one day. Think I'd better hold off for a bit for the sake of harmony at home.;)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-06-2018, 09:51 AM
I'm in Russia with my wife's family for the next month. Enjoying myself but thinking of home in the heat of a Moscow summer. No one's posted on this excellent thread for a while so I thought I'd ask whether anyone here is related to one of the old Welsh houses. I've no way of proving it but my grandmother (primarily Lewis and Watkins from Breconshire) always said that she was of Ifor Bach's line. I used to think of that while passing through his lands as a child. The wider Welsh princes were pretty prolific, so perhaps someone here has the blood of Llewellyn or Glendwr in their veins. I'd be interested to hear about it if so. Any haplogroup info would be a bonus.

I share a paternal ancestor with the Cecils / Saissil (Lord Burghley) around 1300AD. The family were from the Herefordshire/Monmouthshire border.
Only problem is the early origins of the Cecils before the Tudor period are unclear, their rise appears to have started with David Cecil, Burghley's grandfather having supported Henry VII and probably fought for him at Bosworth. Lord Burghley was mocked for his relatively humble origins and went to great lengths to have a pedigree prepared with showed his connections to various "noble" lines but these are regarded, I think, as very dubious. Undoubtedly they married into "noble" families but of course my paternal line connection was prior to this.
The following suggesting descent from a Robert Sitsyllt the founder of the family is regarded by historians as unreliable because it isn't supported by independent documentation. Through DNA test we recently found a Scandinavian connection but currently this appears to be as a result of migration from Britain to Scandinavia around or before 1300 AD (we are U106 Z326). So, at the moment we don't really know when this U106 line first arrived in Britain. From what is known about our DNA testers' UK origins, at the moment these seem to cluster near the Welsh border.

"The claim that this distinguished English political family is of Welsh origin calls for some clarification. The ancestral name, which appears in the family pedigrees as ‘Sitsyllt’ and was softened down to ‘Sissild,’ ‘Cyssel,’ ‘Cecild,’ and ‘Cecil’ in the course of the 15th and 16th cent. , is presumably the Welsh Seisyll; but the founder of the family, ROBERT SITSYLTT , first appears in history as a follower of the Norman Robert Fitzhamon (see under Robert of Gloucester ) in his conquest of the lordship of Glamorgan in the 11th cent. ; he acquired the family seat of Allt-yr-ynys (now in Herefords. , though the estate extends into Mon. ) by marriage into the family of the dispossessed Welsh owners. From this time on the ‘Sitsyllts’ generally married into Norman families and are frequently found fighting against the Welsh . Towards the end of the 15th cent. , however, RICHARD CECIL , the first to use the modern form of the name, m. into the Brecknock family of Vaughan of Tyle-glas . His younger son DAVID CECIL (d. 1541 ) migrated, with some of his Brecknock ‘cousins,’ to Northamptonshire , where he entered the service of Henry VII , became a Yeoman of the Chamber , 1507 , acquired the stewardship of several Crown manors , and served as sheriff of Northampton in 1529-30 ."

There was a Saissil or Sassil who held lands in West Herefordshire during the time of the Domesday Book. PASE Doomsday suggests he could have been a Welsh ally of Harold Godwinson. The Cecil pedigree (almost certainly unreliable) claims descent from an Owen from the time of Godwinson and a Seisyllt at the time of William Rufus. Quite a few Welsh surnames are included in our paternal line as well as some English. Most sources suggest the name Saissil comes from the latin Caecillius or Sextus and this surname seems to be heavily concentrated near the Herefordshire/Monmouthshire border. I do wonder whether there is an outside possibility of a Romano British origin :) ?There were at least some "Germanics" serving near the Welsh border. A Roman burial inscription found at Cirencester, not too far away reads:-

"The inscription reads: Sextus Valerius Genialis, trooper of the (first) cavalry regiment of Thracians, a Frisian tribesman, in the troop of Genialis, aged 40, of 20 years service, lies buried here. His heir had this set up."

So for the moment the early Cecil origins remain a bit of a mystery. We are hoping of course further DNA results and matches may eventually shed more light on this. Sorry for the long ramble. :)

Phoebe Watts
08-06-2018, 05:05 PM
I'm in Russia with my wife's family for the next month. Enjoying myself but thinking of home in the heat of a Moscow summer. No one's posted on this excellent thread for a while so I thought I'd ask whether anyone here is related to one of the old Welsh houses. I've no way of proving it but my grandmother (primarily Lewis and Watkins from Breconshire) always said that she was of Ifor Bach's line. I used to think of that while passing through his lands as a child. The wider Welsh princes were pretty prolific, so perhaps someone here has the blood of Llewellyn or Glendwr in their veins. I'd be interested to hear about it if so. Any haplogroup info would be a bonus.

Ifor Bach is on the lists of what Peter C Bartrum, an expert on medieval Welsh genealogy, called tribal patriarchs. Ideo Wyllt discussed on here recenty is another. Bartrum lists about seventy of them and describes them as common ancestors of the important Welsh families of the fifteenth and sixteenth century. In north Wales in particular you can see five "royal" tribes, descendants of Gruffudd ap Cynan, Rhys ap Tewdwr, Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, Elystan Glodrudd, and Caradog ab Iestyn. And fifteen tribes including Hwfa ap Cynddelw, Collwyn ap Tangno, Llywarch ap Bran etc.

Lots of ordinary people can link back to these patriarchs and it woud have been quite common knowledge up until quite recently. If you can get back to the "county" pedigrees you are soon back into the visitations and the traditional pedigrees and perhaps to the semi-mythical names of the fifth and sixth century. Lots of pinches of salt needed... One great-grandfather, and a few second and third great-grandparents appear in the county pedigrees and through them I can trace back to Gruffudd ap Cynan and to many of the north Wales tribes.

My favourite entry in the pedigrees is the very distant great-grandmother who is said to have been wet-nurse of Edward II.

Saetro
08-06-2018, 07:56 PM
I'm in Russia with my wife's family for the next month. Enjoying myself but thinking of home in the heat of a Moscow summer. No one's posted on this excellent thread for a while so I thought I'd ask whether anyone here is related to one of the old Welsh houses. I've no way of proving it but my grandmother (primarily Lewis and Watkins from Breconshire) always said that she was of Ifor Bach's line. I used to think of that while passing through his lands as a child. The wider Welsh princes were pretty prolific, so perhaps someone here has the blood of Llewellyn or Glendwr in their veins. I'd be interested to hear about it if so. Any haplogroup info would be a bonus.

According to what looks like a reliable source (but I have not examined this seriously), one of my Cornish lines goes back to a Norman invader Ralph/Raoul BLOUET who married a Nest something. No idea who she was, but one of their grandsons, Ralph III is supposed to have married (mid 1100s) a Nesta verch Iowerth who is supposed to descend from King Owain Deheubarth (Hywel) ap Hywell born around 913.
This information may or may not be correct. I don't know. But it does come from people who have not made obvious mistakes, so maybe.

My present focus on this line is more on what was happening around 1500 in Cornwall.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-07-2018, 06:06 AM
Does anyone know what the best YDNA sampling for Wales is, if there's a study published? I know about the maps at Eupedia and this chart: https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/britain_ireland_dna.shtml#maps, but was just wondering if there was anything more.

Also, has there ever been a publication about mtDNA in the British Isles (including Wales)? I expect mtDNA is too diffuse, at least at the U/H/K/T level they usually give, to show any differences, but figured I'd ask.

On other news, my effort to find a link with my distant Welsh cousin has not yet been successful. One thing I noticed is that his lines go to the following places (dates are birth places of earliest known ancestor): 1800 Ruabon, Wrexham (Welsh surname), 1895 Ruabon (same), 1828 Shropshire (English surname), 1860 Wrexham (Welsh surname), 1858 Brymbo (Welsh surname), and a few unknown female lines. While I have been assuming these link to one of my Welsh lines moving out of Llangadfan, Montgomershire, or Trefriw, Caernarvonshire, looking at it again makes me wonder if it could be a connection with the Shropshire side of my family moving into Wales.

In any case, I have to go back a couple of generations prior to the immigrant ancestors, I think, which means pre census, and with his the common names make tracing backwards hard (as I know those experienced with Welsh research can understand).

I'm afraid I don't know of any detailed studies on Welsh DNA. A while back someone posted about a forthcoming DNA study but no details were given and and I haven't heard anymore about it.
It is something that is really needed, particularly more detailed analysis in finer detail. There is a Welsh DNA Project on Facebook but I don't think anyone is doing any serious analysis there.

Phoebe Watts
08-07-2018, 09:46 AM
According to what looks like a reliable source (but I have not examined this seriously), one of my Cornish lines goes back to a Norman invader Ralph/Raoul BLOUET who married a Nest something. No idea who she was, but one of their grandsons, Ralph III is supposed to have married (mid 1100s) a Nesta verch Iowerth who is supposed to descend from King Owain Deheubarth (Hywel) ap Hywell born around 913.
This information may or may not be correct. I don't know. But it does come from people who have not made obvious mistakes, so maybe.

My present focus on this line is more on what was happening around 1500 in Cornwall.

Your Nest was quite famous! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nest_Bloet

Thank you for the reminder that the Anglo Norman families who were in South Wales and Ireland were also in Cornwall.

msmarjoribanks
08-07-2018, 06:11 PM
I'm afraid I don't know of any detailed studies on Welsh DNA. A while back someone posted about a forthcoming DNA study but no details were given and and I haven't heard anymore about it.
It is something that is really needed, particularly more detailed analysis in finer detail. There is a Welsh DNA Project on Facebook but I don't think anyone is doing any serious analysis there.

Thanks. I was afraid that was likely true, that there wasn't really anything.

msmarjoribanks
08-07-2018, 06:23 PM
Re Welsh royalty, I can never think of Owain Glyndŵr, without thinking of one of my favorite scenes in Shakespeare (where Hotspur gets the best lines, of course, especially as Shakespeare does like to poke fun at the Welsh). From Henry IV, Part 1:

GLENDOWER
...Sit, cousin Percy; sit, good cousin Hotspur,
For by that name as oft as Lancaster
Doth speak of you, his cheek looks pale and with
A rising sigh he wisheth you in heaven.

HOTSPUR
And you in hell, as oft as he hears Owen Glendower spoke of.

GLENDOWER
I cannot blame him: at my nativity
The front of heaven was full of fiery shapes,
Of burning cressets; and at my birth
The frame and huge foundation of the earth
Shaked like a coward.

HOTSPUR
Why, so it would have done at the same season, if
your mother's cat had but kittened, though yourself
had never been born.

GLENDOWER
I say the earth did shake when I was born.

HOTSPUR
And I say the earth was not of my mind,
If you suppose as fearing you it shook.

GLENDOWER
The heavens were all on fire, the earth did tremble.

HOTSPUR
O, then the earth shook to see the heavens on fire,
And not in fear of your nativity.
Diseased nature oftentimes breaks forth
In strange eruptions; oft the teeming earth
Is with a kind of colic pinch'd and vex'd
By the imprisoning of unruly wind
Within her womb; which, for enlargement striving,
Shakes the old beldam earth and topples down
Steeples and moss-grown towers. At your birth
Our grandam earth, having this distemperature,
In passion shook.

GLENDOWER
Cousin, of many men
I do not bear these crossings. Give me leave
To tell you once again that at my birth
The front of heaven was full of fiery shapes,
The goats ran from the mountains, and the herds
Were strangely clamorous to the frighted fields.
These signs have mark'd me extraordinary;
And all the courses of my life do show
I am not in the roll of common men.
Where is he living, clipp'd in with the sea
That chides the banks of England, Scotland, Wales,
Which calls me pupil, or hath read to me?
And bring him out that is but woman's son
Can trace me in the tedious ways of art
And hold me pace in deep experiments.

HOTSPUR
I think there's no man speaks better Welsh.
I'll to dinner.

MORTIMER
Peace, cousin Percy; you will make him mad.

GLENDOWER
I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

HOTSPUR
Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?

* * *

MORTIMER
Fie, cousin Percy! how you cross my father!

HOTSPUR
I cannot choose: sometime he angers me
With telling me of the mouldwarp and the ant,
Of the dreamer Merlin and his prophecies,
And of a dragon and a finless fish,
A clip-wing'd griffin and a moulten raven,
A couching lion and a ramping cat,
And such a deal of skimble-skamble stuff
As puts me from my faith. I tell you what;
He held me last night at least nine hours
In reckoning up the several devils' names
That were his lackeys: I cried 'hum,' and 'well, go to,'
But mark'd him not a word. O, he is as tedious
As a tired horse, a railing wife;
Worse than a smoky house: I had rather live
With cheese and garlic in a windmill, far,
Than feed on cates and have him talk to me
In any summer-house in Christendom.

MORTIMER
In faith, he is a worthy gentleman,
Exceedingly well read, and profited
In strange concealments, valiant as a lion
And as wondrous affable and as bountiful
As mines of India. Shall I tell you, cousin?
He holds your temper in a high respect
And curbs himself even of his natural scope
When you come 'cross his humour; faith, he does:
I warrant you, that man is not alive
Might so have tempted him as you have done,
Without the taste of danger and reproof:
But do not use it oft, let me entreat you.

Saetro
08-07-2018, 07:28 PM
Your Nest was quite famous! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nest_Bloet

Thank you for the reminder that the Anglo Norman families who were in South Wales and Ireland were also in Cornwall.

Thank you.

Other sources tend to show a conflation of two Nests.
That one who was most famously involved with Henry II was Nesta ferch Rhys.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nest_ferch_Rhys
She was most certainly NOT involved with Blouet although she did also come from the house of Deheubarth, just like the other Nest(a), but less directly.
Nesta ferch Rhys had a life with little personal choice, less than most women in her position.* I find that sad.

Nesta verch Iowerth appears to be my ancestor, but via one of her sons with Blouet, and not Morgan.

*Her life would be ripe for a historical novel.
So maybe one has already been written about Nesta ferch Rhys? Anyone know of one?

JonikW
08-07-2018, 07:37 PM
Re Welsh royalty, I can never think of Owain Glyndŵr, without thinking of one of my favorite scenes in Shakespeare (where Hotspur gets the best lines, of course, especially as Shakespeare does like to poke fun at the Welsh). From Henry IV, Part 1:

GLENDOWER
...Sit, cousin Percy; sit, good cousin Hotspur,
For by that name as oft as Lancaster
Doth speak of you, his cheek looks pale and with
A rising sigh he wisheth you in heaven.

HOTSPUR
And you in hell, as oft as he hears Owen Glendower spoke of.

GLENDOWER
I cannot blame him: at my nativity
The front of heaven was full of fiery shapes,
Of burning cressets; and at my birth
The frame and huge foundation of the earth
Shaked like a coward.

HOTSPUR
Why, so it would have done at the same season, if
your mother's cat had but kittened, though yourself
had never been born.

GLENDOWER
I say the earth did shake when I was born.

HOTSPUR
And I say the earth was not of my mind,
If you suppose as fearing you it shook.

GLENDOWER
The heavens were all on fire, the earth did tremble.

HOTSPUR
O, then the earth shook to see the heavens on fire,
And not in fear of your nativity.
Diseased nature oftentimes breaks forth
In strange eruptions; oft the teeming earth
Is with a kind of colic pinch'd and vex'd
By the imprisoning of unruly wind
Within her womb; which, for enlargement striving,
Shakes the old beldam earth and topples down
Steeples and moss-grown towers. At your birth
Our grandam earth, having this distemperature,
In passion shook.

GLENDOWER
Cousin, of many men
I do not bear these crossings. Give me leave
To tell you once again that at my birth
The front of heaven was full of fiery shapes,
The goats ran from the mountains, and the herds
Were strangely clamorous to the frighted fields.
These signs have mark'd me extraordinary;
And all the courses of my life do show
I am not in the roll of common men.
Where is he living, clipp'd in with the sea
That chides the banks of England, Scotland, Wales,
Which calls me pupil, or hath read to me?
And bring him out that is but woman's son
Can trace me in the tedious ways of art
And hold me pace in deep experiments.

HOTSPUR
I think there's no man speaks better Welsh.
I'll to dinner.

MORTIMER
Peace, cousin Percy; you will make him mad.

GLENDOWER
I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

HOTSPUR
Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?

* * *

MORTIMER
Fie, cousin Percy! how you cross my father!

HOTSPUR
I cannot choose: sometime he angers me
With telling me of the mouldwarp and the ant,
Of the dreamer Merlin and his prophecies,
And of a dragon and a finless fish,
A clip-wing'd griffin and a moulten raven,
A couching lion and a ramping cat,
And such a deal of skimble-skamble stuff
As puts me from my faith. I tell you what;
He held me last night at least nine hours
In reckoning up the several devils' names
That were his lackeys: I cried 'hum,' and 'well, go to,'
But mark'd him not a word. O, he is as tedious
As a tired horse, a railing wife;
Worse than a smoky house: I had rather live
With cheese and garlic in a windmill, far,
Than feed on cates and have him talk to me
In any summer-house in Christendom.

MORTIMER
In faith, he is a worthy gentleman,
Exceedingly well read, and profited
In strange concealments, valiant as a lion
And as wondrous affable and as bountiful
As mines of India. Shall I tell you, cousin?
He holds your temper in a high respect
And curbs himself even of his natural scope
When you come 'cross his humour; faith, he does:
I warrant you, that man is not alive
Might so have tempted him as you have done,
Without the taste of danger and reproof:
But do not use it oft, let me entreat you.

Thanks for these lines. Always a pleasure to read Shakespeare. He certainly knew how to put a point across with panache. Don't make 'em like that anymore.;)

Phoebe Watts
08-07-2018, 07:53 PM
Thank you.

Other sources tend to show a conflation of two Nests.
That one who was most famously involved with Henry II was Nesta ferch Rhys.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nest_ferch_Rhys
She was most certainly NOT involved with Blouet although she did also come from the house of Deheubarth, just like the other Nest(a), but less directly.
Nesta ferch Rhys had a life with little personal choice, less than most women in her position.* I find that sad.

Nesta verch Iowerth appears to be my ancestor, but via one of her sons with Blouet, and not Morgan.

*Her life would be ripe for a historical novel.
So maybe one has already been written about Nesta ferch Rhys? Anyone know of one?

These royal pedigrees are prone to conflation - deliberate or otherwise. There is a version of the pedigrees that make Nest ferch Iorwerth a descendant of Owain ap Hywel Dda of Deheubarth. I'm not sure if that is the current view. Having said that, her line was significant in south-east Wales and her father Iorwerth ab Owain of Gwynllwg or Caerleon was a significant player in the war games of his time.

You are right about the role of these women. And it wasn't only the Welsh women. The story of Siwan, or Joan, the illegitimate daughter of King John of England who was married off to Llywelyn Fawr is well known in Welsh literature.

JonikW
08-07-2018, 08:16 PM
Re Welsh royalty, I can never think of Owain Glyndŵr, without thinking of one of my favorite scenes in Shakespeare (where Hotspur gets the best lines, of course, especially as Shakespeare does like to poke fun at the Welsh). From Henry IV, Part 1:

GLENDOWER
...Sit, cousin Percy; sit, good cousin Hotspur,
For by that name as oft as Lancaster
Doth speak of you, his cheek looks pale and with
A rising sigh he wisheth you in heaven.

HOTSPUR
And you in hell, as oft as he hears Owen Glendower spoke of.

GLENDOWER
I cannot blame him: at my nativity
The front of heaven was full of fiery shapes,
Of burning cressets; and at my birth
The frame and huge foundation of the earth
Shaked like a coward.

HOTSPUR
Why, so it would have done at the same season, if
your mother's cat had but kittened, though yourself
had never been born.

GLENDOWER
I say the earth did shake when I was born.

HOTSPUR
And I say the earth was not of my mind,
If you suppose as fearing you it shook.

GLENDOWER
The heavens were all on fire, the earth did tremble.

HOTSPUR
O, then the earth shook to see the heavens on fire,
And not in fear of your nativity.
Diseased nature oftentimes breaks forth
In strange eruptions; oft the teeming earth
Is with a kind of colic pinch'd and vex'd
By the imprisoning of unruly wind
Within her womb; which, for enlargement striving,
Shakes the old beldam earth and topples down
Steeples and moss-grown towers. At your birth
Our grandam earth, having this distemperature,
In passion shook.

GLENDOWER
Cousin, of many men
I do not bear these crossings. Give me leave
To tell you once again that at my birth
The front of heaven was full of fiery shapes,
The goats ran from the mountains, and the herds
Were strangely clamorous to the frighted fields.
These signs have mark'd me extraordinary;
And all the courses of my life do show
I am not in the roll of common men.
Where is he living, clipp'd in with the sea
That chides the banks of England, Scotland, Wales,
Which calls me pupil, or hath read to me?
And bring him out that is but woman's son
Can trace me in the tedious ways of art
And hold me pace in deep experiments.

HOTSPUR
I think there's no man speaks better Welsh.
I'll to dinner.

MORTIMER
Peace, cousin Percy; you will make him mad.

GLENDOWER
I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

HOTSPUR
Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?

* * *

MORTIMER
Fie, cousin Percy! how you cross my father!

HOTSPUR
I cannot choose: sometime he angers me
With telling me of the mouldwarp and the ant,
Of the dreamer Merlin and his prophecies,
And of a dragon and a finless fish,
A clip-wing'd griffin and a moulten raven,
A couching lion and a ramping cat,
And such a deal of skimble-skamble stuff
As puts me from my faith. I tell you what;
He held me last night at least nine hours
In reckoning up the several devils' names
That were his lackeys: I cried 'hum,' and 'well, go to,'
But mark'd him not a word. O, he is as tedious
As a tired horse, a railing wife;
Worse than a smoky house: I had rather live
With cheese and garlic in a windmill, far,
Than feed on cates and have him talk to me
In any summer-house in Christendom.

MORTIMER
In faith, he is a worthy gentleman,
Exceedingly well read, and profited
In strange concealments, valiant as a lion
And as wondrous affable and as bountiful
As mines of India. Shall I tell you, cousin?
He holds your temper in a high respect
And curbs himself even of his natural scope
When you come 'cross his humour; faith, he does:
I warrant you, that man is not alive
Might so have tempted him as you have done,
Without the taste of danger and reproof:
But do not use it oft, let me entreat you.

I just wanted to add something after rereading those words of Shakespeare; this is not a Welsh thing, sadly, but apparently my forefather on my direct paternal line served as an archer in Sir Philip Leche's Derbyshire retinue at Agincourt. That's according to research from original documents by my great, great grandfather well over 100 years ago. I've found my ancestor on the list for the siege of Rouen a couple of years after Agincourt so it certainly looks possible and have discussed it with an authority on the period who was very helpful. I find these lines by Shakespeare very moving:

"And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."

I took my son to Agincourt about ten years ago one October day and it was one of those beautiful, rare occasions where you feel the curtain of the years fall away.

Phoebe Watts
08-07-2018, 08:49 PM
Re Welsh royalty, I can never think of Owain Glyndŵr, without thinking of one of my favorite scenes in Shakespeare (where Hotspur gets the best lines, of course, especially as Shakespeare does like to poke fun at the Welsh). From Henry IV, Part 1: ...



There is still some discussion about Shakespeare's Welsh characters. He obviously had knowedge of Wales and his way with words is familiar to Welsh ears. This might be interesting: https://wales.britishcouncil.org/en/shakespeare-and-wales

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-08-2018, 08:02 AM
Re Welsh royalty, I can never think of Owain Glyndŵr, without thinking of one of my favorite scenes in Shakespeare (where Hotspur gets the best lines, of course, especially as Shakespeare does like to poke fun at the Welsh). From Henry IV, Part 1:

GLENDOWER
...Sit, cousin Percy; sit, good cousin Hotspur,
For by that name as oft as Lancaster
Doth speak of you, his cheek looks pale and with
A rising sigh he wisheth you in heaven.

HOTSPUR
And you in hell, as oft as he hears Owen Glendower spoke of.

GLENDOWER
I cannot blame him: at my nativity
The front of heaven was full of fiery shapes,
Of burning cressets; and at my birth
The frame and huge foundation of the earth
Shaked like a coward.

HOTSPUR
Why, so it would have done at the same season, if
your mother's cat had but kittened, though yourself
had never been born.

GLENDOWER
I say the earth did shake when I was born.

HOTSPUR
And I say the earth was not of my mind,
If you suppose as fearing you it shook.

GLENDOWER
The heavens were all on fire, the earth did tremble.

HOTSPUR
O, then the earth shook to see the heavens on fire,
And not in fear of your nativity.
Diseased nature oftentimes breaks forth
In strange eruptions; oft the teeming earth
Is with a kind of colic pinch'd and vex'd
By the imprisoning of unruly wind
Within her womb; which, for enlargement striving,
Shakes the old beldam earth and topples down
Steeples and moss-grown towers. At your birth
Our grandam earth, having this distemperature,
In passion shook.

GLENDOWER
Cousin, of many men
I do not bear these crossings. Give me leave
To tell you once again that at my birth
The front of heaven was full of fiery shapes,
The goats ran from the mountains, and the herds
Were strangely clamorous to the frighted fields.
These signs have mark'd me extraordinary;
And all the courses of my life do show
I am not in the roll of common men.
Where is he living, clipp'd in with the sea
That chides the banks of England, Scotland, Wales,
Which calls me pupil, or hath read to me?
And bring him out that is but woman's son
Can trace me in the tedious ways of art
And hold me pace in deep experiments.

HOTSPUR
I think there's no man speaks better Welsh.
I'll to dinner.

MORTIMER
Peace, cousin Percy; you will make him mad.

GLENDOWER
I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

HOTSPUR
Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?

* * *

MORTIMER
Fie, cousin Percy! how you cross my father!

HOTSPUR
I cannot choose: sometime he angers me
With telling me of the mouldwarp and the ant,
Of the dreamer Merlin and his prophecies,
And of a dragon and a finless fish,
A clip-wing'd griffin and a moulten raven,
A couching lion and a ramping cat,
And such a deal of skimble-skamble stuff
As puts me from my faith. I tell you what;
He held me last night at least nine hours
In reckoning up the several devils' names
That were his lackeys: I cried 'hum,' and 'well, go to,'
But mark'd him not a word. O, he is as tedious
As a tired horse, a railing wife;
Worse than a smoky house: I had rather live
With cheese and garlic in a windmill, far,
Than feed on cates and have him talk to me
In any summer-house in Christendom.

MORTIMER
In faith, he is a worthy gentleman,
Exceedingly well read, and profited
In strange concealments, valiant as a lion
And as wondrous affable and as bountiful
As mines of India. Shall I tell you, cousin?
He holds your temper in a high respect
And curbs himself even of his natural scope
When you come 'cross his humour; faith, he does:
I warrant you, that man is not alive
Might so have tempted him as you have done,
Without the taste of danger and reproof:
But do not use it oft, let me entreat you.


Henry V ;)
"Fluellen: "If your Majesty is remembered of it, the Welshmen did good service in a garden where leeks did grow, wearing leeks in their Monmouth caps, which your Majesty knows, to this hour is an honourable badge of the service, and I do believe, your Majesty takes no scorn to wear the leek upon Saint Tavy's day."
King Henry: "I wear it for a memorable honour; for I am Welsh, you know, good my countryman."

rms2
08-09-2018, 04:48 PM
I like this little series of videos.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vZcnIt0b0k&index=1&list=PLNTBUzUirYqD1TIcL9bV0nW8xFXsH3Qk6

JonikW
08-27-2018, 05:47 AM
Interesting Irish opinion piece just published on the "Celtic" link between Welsh, Irish and Scots. I'd forgotten about the IRA announcement of 1972.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/celts-ireland-4199945-Aug2018/

msmarjoribanks
08-27-2018, 02:28 PM
I have some pretty major disagreements with that piece, but I think it's interesting, and some of it is of course true, like the changing meaning and interest in the term Celtic.

I'd say there clearly was something that changed genetically (and no doubt culturally, we don't know enough about the cultures of the time) in the 3rd millenium BC. Also, as an outsider (American), so limited in my perspective, don't think the "celtic" thing is so much related to "race" as culture and language and history, and specifically a history/language vis-a-vis the English (and maybe a broader assumption about what happened to Celtic Briton vis-a-vis the Anglo Saxons), even though of course assumed similarities can be overstated since what happened in Ireland/Scotland/Wales/Britain were different and took place over different historical periods and with different adversaries and its not like the English weren't also Celtic in the genetic sense, at least significantly so. (I would also say that things about the culture of all the countries at issue changed well after that too, due to historical events, because culture changes over time.)

Linguistically, what the writer says is one understanding and one I'd certainly thought was true at one point, but it seems inconsistent with what Alan wrote yesterday about the current understanding so at the least I'd say it's hardly that settled (and doesn't really matter in the way the writer seems to think).

Of course, within England, and large parts of Wales and Scotland and at least parts of Ireland, people are so mixed anyway which is why I think of course it's cultural not mainly DNA (or "race"), and surely at least within the UK they take part in both/multiple cultures (broad UK, specific local ones). And in some cases there may not be any more connection than in the US -- one example is that in my SE English non conformist side, you see people who moved from Scotland to the London area in the 1700s and intermarried, likely due to religious connections, and seem to be totally emerged in the particular milieu of those families.

From a US perspective it's more extreme -- some of my Welsh ancestors came here with Welsh as their first language and lived in very Welsh communities at first with various Welsh traditions and attended Welsh language churches and so on, and I have no idea what their particular thoughts were toward the rest of the UK. On the other hand, they moved west to a mixed (largely newly populated) area and their children (as Americans) married people from a variety of backgrounds, some Welsh (I have a cousin where that side of his family largely did marry people from the same community) but in most cases not, and in my case someone from SE England (who may have had some ancestry from Wales, however). They didn't pass down the language, did they pass down any culture distinct from western American culture? Hard to say.

To some extent in some (not most) areas being Irish was preserved as a social thing (vs. the prior power structure), you see that in Chicago to some extent (despite the Irish obviously largely taking over the power structure), but in those cases I suspect Welsh and Scottish tended to be connected more to Anglo/not Irish because at one point the distinction was religion and recentness of immigration (although my Welsh came at the same time as the first wave of Famine-related Irish, and I wonder if that affected their experiences at all -- seems not to in that they went to a specifically Welsh area, as I said).

That aside, the argument seems to be that it's irrational or even bad (based on certain Victorian notions of race) to identify as Welsh (well, Celtic) at all merely due to personal ancestry and interest in that history, and I don't think that. (But I personally don't identify as "Celtic" because that on its own doesn't mean much to me beyond historical groups and language.)

Morning ramblings, not to be taken too seriously!

JonikW
08-27-2018, 05:16 PM
Very interesting ramblings! The Celtic Identity badge still has a powerful grip on many people's imaginations, regardless of right or wrong. Like you, I had a few issues with that piece but there are a few things to chew on there. It's a shame he didn't touch on DNA findings and give a view on those. I think he's right about sporting identity...

Phoebe Watts
08-30-2018, 02:52 PM
Interesting ramblings!

I read things differently. I thought it was just the overarching Celtic identity that was being discussed and challenged, not the Irish, Welsh, Scottish etc. identities. I see that the original book is about the creation of a "Celtic" identity in the mid-1800s to unite the nations.

The Celtic nations had been divided for a very long time by language, religion and history. I'm shocked by the anti-Irish and anti-Catholic outbursts of my 3xgreat grandparents' generation and from a C21st perspective it is obvious that something needed to be done in the 1800s to unite the nations around the things we had in common. I think that movement eventually had some success.

You can actually catch a glimpse of what some Welsh emigrants to north America felt about their identity though, and there isn't much about a Celtic identity. There are lots of references to a Brythonic identity in Welsh language newspapers and periodicals published in America. This identity is based on Wales, and the lost lands of yr Hen Ogledd and the eastern part of the kingdom of Powys. You can see this reflected in personal names from the history of these areas, such as Taliesin and Aneurin, becoming popular in Wales and north America.

There are lots of quirky examples – I found one in an article about the Philanthropic Order of True Ivorites, a Welsh language Friendly Society established in the mid-1800s, which had some lodges named for Welsh heroes. The lodge in Granville N.Y. was named for Llywarch Hen, a C6th poet and prince of Rheged.

Saetro
08-31-2018, 01:15 AM
Interesting ramblings!

I read things differently. I thought it was just the overarching Celtic identity that was being discussed and challenged, not the Irish, Welsh, Scottish etc. identities. I see that the original book is about the creation of a "Celtic" identity in the mid-1800s to unite the nations.

The Celtic nations had been divided for a very long time by language, religion and history. I'm shocked by the anti-Irish and anti-Catholic outbursts of my 3xgreat grandparents' generation and from a C21st perspective it is obvious that something needed to be done in the 1800s to unite the nations around the things we had in common. I think that movement eventually had some success.

Yes, as a child I had the impression from some people that those other than us had two heads, cloven hooves, a tail and horns.
Fortunately, close relatives were far more inclusive and accepting and proved the dominant model.

I blame a classical education of nobles in Latin, reading Latin texts on war and governance.
As collected in Machiavelli's "Prince", the Romans used a variety of techniques to divide and conquer.
The English perennially used this in so many places they ruled.
If the pan-Celtic movement is the price to pay for unification then that is fine.
But the calm in Northern Ireland is fairly recent, and came long after the pan-Celtic movement began.
It probably had a part to play, but this can be hard to quantify and agree on.

msmarjoribanks
08-31-2018, 02:42 AM
Yeah, I think I went off on my own thing and lost track of the article.

That said, I don't think the history of term must mean that "Celtic" = a racial concept, and I thought that bit was overstated. I do think the historical connections are turning out to be more real than the author acknowledges (again, the genetic shift in the third millennium), but beyond that I think it's a linguistic and historical connection, and in particular as minority cultures/languages vs the dominant English, although in very different ways.

I'm certainly aware that there were racial notions at play in the 19th century (I recall reading an old English history book of that era that asserted that the Celtic natural tendencies to disorder and emotionalism were tempered in the Scots due to Presbyterianism and aggravated in the Irish due to Catholicism). But I don't think that kind of thing must make the identification bad.

In the US when I was growing up it mostly meant Irish, though -- I recall my dad taking issue with that to some degree (and the pronunciation of the Boston Celtics). Maybe if I'd been Scottish or aware of being Scottish I'd have perceived that differently -- I know people now whose families were all into Highland Games and such things, and expect they may have identified as Celtic. I never thought of my dad's family as distinct from English in background even though I knew they were supposed to be part Welsh (and I was actually surprised when I learned how Welsh they were -- I'd assumed they were primarily English speakers when they immigrated until I started researching).

As long as I'm rambling again, funny thing is my Shropshire Jones line and my North Wales Jones line are the only Church of England (or Church of Wales, I suppose) lines I have. The rest of my English family (and the other Welsh line) seem to have gone Calvinist or Quaker early on, and an earlier Welsh line is from an area in the US known for Welsh Calvinists. My dad's dad (a Jones from both lines) was raised Methodist, but it's not clear where that came from, I think from his mom's family who were frontier American types (with some Welsh Calvinist) who probably ended up Methodist based on some religious revival.

rms2
08-31-2018, 11:50 AM
. . . My dad's dad (a Jones from both lines) was raised Methodist, but it's not clear where that came from, I think from his mom's family who were frontier American types (with some Welsh Calvinist) who probably ended up Methodist based on some religious revival.

Many of the Welsh were Methodists, particularly after the Welsh Methodist Revival (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Methodist_revival) of the 18th century.

My own family was very active in Methodism in the 18th century in Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Ohio.

jdean
08-31-2018, 04:06 PM
Many of the Welsh were Methodists, particularly after the Welsh Methodist Revival (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Methodist_revival) of the 18th century.

My own family was very active in Methodism in the 18th century in Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Ohio.

My mother's family were Calvinistic Methodists

msmarjoribanks
08-31-2018, 07:16 PM
Many of the Welsh were Methodists, particularly after the Welsh Methodist Revival (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Methodist_revival) of the 18th century.

My own family was very active in Methodism in the 18th century in Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Ohio.

I knew that was the case in Wales, which is why I thought it was worth noting, but didn't know that was the case within the US. This family was from Ohio, but my frontier families tended to switch religion a lot probably in part because of what was available.

Phoebe Watts
08-31-2018, 07:27 PM
This might be useful too:

http://www.welshchapels.org/nonconformity/calvinistic-methodists-presbyterians/

This page shows where the Calvinistic Methodist chapels were in Wales. There are pages for other denominations too.

There was no Church of Wales. As some of the links already posted show, the Church in Wales was created at the disestablishment of the Church of England in Wales in about 1920. The established church had been weakened in the 1700s, and after the secession of the Calvinistic Methodists in 1811, the non-conformists were far stronger than the established church in most areas.

Knowing the denomination can often help place what part of Wales ancestors are from. My ancestors from south-west Wales were mainly Congregationalists. They were mostly Calvinistic Methodists in Anglesey, Denbighshire and Flintshire.

msmarjoribanks
08-31-2018, 08:07 PM
What would it have been called in the early to mid 1800s? Just the Church of England? Or simply Anglican?

My Joneses in North Wales seem to have been just members of the local parish, established church -- I need to find the relevant church records to see what they did in the US (Wisconsin). My Humphreys were Calvinistic Methodists in Montgomeryshire -- one of the Welsh language newspapers that had information about them (and confirmed the farm, Dolypebyll -- my ancestor Owen supposedly left because it was to go to his older brother, although it seems they all left or lost it by the next generation) seems to have been a Calvinistic Methodist publication.

Saetro
08-31-2018, 08:19 PM
Many of the Welsh were Methodists, particularly after the Welsh Methodist Revival (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Methodist_revival) of the 18th century.

My own family was very active in Methodism in the 18th century in Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Ohio.

Cornish too.
South Australia, where I grew up, had many Cornish and English Methodists of various stripes and also Congregationalists. And Presbyterians.
That entire thread was stronger than anywhere else in Australia and brought its own character.
In the long term that led to some areas of dowdy conservatism but also social advances. This strange mix only makes sense from the religious and social background.

One Cornish line appeared lost. He did not come out to Australia nor stay in Cornwall.
Eventually we found he had gone to America as a Methodist preacher. (A recent DNA success.)
And fortunately some obituaries and church histories gave us detail, even though he had moved states a couple of times.

I think there was much in that style of religion that appealed to many.
It was possible for an ordinary man (and they were almost all men) to move from a personal faith to that of leading others in a small then larger way.
There was oversight but not in the same way as episcopal denominations.

JonikW
08-31-2018, 08:46 PM
Also, those Protestant communities in Wales (I don't know how much that applied to Cornwall) put high store on educating the common man in religion and letters. The Protestant printed Bible did wonders there as elsewhere in Europe (remember Mary Jones?). I suppose the miners' institutes were natural successors in propagating a love of knowledge, sometimes with a Socialist bent.

msmarjoribanks
08-31-2018, 08:58 PM
Women too, for a while. Adam Bede is a good book relating (tangentially) to that. There's actually a connection between the American Revolution and the split between Methodism and the Church of England, too. Wesley and the Church had been at odds about who was authorized to preach and ordination already, and then after the Revolution there was no US bishop, and thus no one to ordain new priests/presbyters. Eventually Wesley was frustrated enough with the inability to meet the demand for Methodist preachers/presbyters in the US that when when the Church delayed in doing so, and specifically in appointing a US bishop who could, Wesley went ahead and did it himself, ordaining Thomas Coke as superintendent of Methodists in the US and some others as presbyters.

Possibly related to Methodism (or at least religious revival), I have a couple of ancestors (a couple) who were raised Quaker and at some point after their children were grown are listed as ministers of the gospel (both of them) and then preacher and preacheress in the census (in Iowa and Kansas, 1870-1880). I don't know what denomination.

Phoebe Watts
08-31-2018, 09:55 PM
What would it have been called in the early to mid 1800s? Just the Church of England? Or simply Anglican?

My Joneses in North Wales seem to have been just members of the local parish, established church -- I need to find the relevant church records to see what they did in the US (Wisconsin). My Humphreys were Calvinistic Methodists in Montgomeryshire -- one of the Welsh language newspapers that had information about them (and confirmed the farm, Dolypebyll -- my ancestor Owen supposedly left because it was to go to his older brother, although it seems they all left or lost it by the next generation) seems to have been a Calvinistic Methodist publication.

I don't know. CofE and Anglican are both correct I suppose. Perhaps people would have thought of the church or the parish church?

By the way, have you noticed that Montgomeryshire MIs are now available on findmypast?

Phoebe Watts
09-01-2018, 10:14 AM
(... the farm, Dolypebyll -- my ancestor Owen supposedly left because it was to go to his older brother, although it seems they all left or lost it by the next generation)

Have you been able to check this story I wonder? I don't know Montgomeryshire, but in most of the rural areas in Wales that I do know, the traditional inheritence route in farming families is ultimogeniture rather than primogeniture. The tradition lasted well into the 1900s in some areas and it reflects the role of the youngest son in supporting the parents and other relatives. If you look at other large farming families in the same area it should be possible to see whether it is the eldest or the youngest who inherits.

msmarjoribanks
09-01-2018, 02:15 PM
Have you been able to check this story I wonder? I don't know Montgomeryshire, but in most of the rural areas in Wales that I do know, the traditional inheritence route in farming families is ultimogeniture rather than primogeniture. The tradition lasted well into the 1900s in some areas and it reflects the role of the youngest son in supporting the parents and other relatives. If you look at other large farming families in the same area it should be possible to see whether it is the eldest or the youngest who inherits.

It's something I never really thought about, just a received story, and I definitely should look at it in more detail. I do know Owen's father got it from his childless uncle (we have a will for that).

Lirio100
09-01-2018, 03:17 PM
Just to be different ;) My Welsh great grandmother from Nantyglo in southern Wales was Baptist.

msmarjoribanks
09-01-2018, 08:01 PM
Checking on the farm (Dolpebyll or Dolypebyll), it does appear to have been left to the oldest sons based on the wills available, at least during the 1800s. My immigrant ancestor is Owen Humphreys, his father was Zechariah, his father was Owen (who had an older brother John), and John's and Owen's father was John (g-grandfather of my immigrant). That final John is as far back as I have the family currently, although I need to work on them more.

The wills are online on the National Library of Wales site. "John Humphreys of Dol y pebyll" (b. 1726, d. 1803) left his younger sons and daughters the sum of 5 pounds each and all his land to his oldest son John, and to his beloved wife Mary "the old House and garden" and a certain amount of potatoes for life, as well as all the household stuff but for the clock and 5 pounds a year for life.

That oldest son John doesn't appear to have married, and he left the farm to his nephew Zechariah in 1830 (interestingly, not to any of John's younger brothers who were still alive):

"First I give and devise and bequeath unto my sister ANN that piece of land on the Rhos Llangadfan not in her occupation and containing about two acres more or less the said piece or parcel of land to my said sister ANN for and during the term of her natural life and from and after as I give and devise the said piece or parcel of land unto my nephew ZECHARIAS HUMPHREYS--

I also give and bequeath unto my said sister ANN the sum of twenty pounds. Also I give and bequeath unto my sister JANE for and during the term of her natural life and also as much ground properly prepared and manured in same piece of fallow ground on Dolypebyll Farm as will be sufficient for the planting of a strike of potatoes therein yearly and every year for and during the natural life of her my said sister JANE.

I also give and bequeath unto my said sister JANE the sum of twenty pounds. Likewise I give and bequeath unto my brother MORRIS the sum of thirty pounds and all my wearing apparel.

I give and bequeath unto my niece MARY, the daughter of my said brother MORRIS, my clock.
I give and bequeath unto my nephew ROBERT REES of Llwyniolyn the sum of ten pounds,
I also give and bequeath unto my niece MARY, wife of EDWARD REES of Penyfoel the sum like sum of ten pounds.

I also give and bequeath unto my nephews DAVID, EDWARD and JOHN brothers of my last named niece MARY, wife of the said EDWARD REES, one pound apiece. And as to all the rest, residue and remainder of my personal estate and effects whatsoever and wheresoever and of what nature kind or quality soever the be after the payment of my just debts funeral expenses and the expense of proving this my will.

I give and bequeath the same unto my nephew ZECHARIAS HUMPHREYS foresaid and I do lastly hereby nominate and make ordain and appoint my said nephew Zecharias Humphreys sole executor of this my last will and testament hereby revoking and making void all former and other wills made by me at any time heretofore made and in witness whereof I have hereunto set and subscribed my hand and seal this twentieth day of April in the year of our Lord 1830."

Zechariah had at least 3 sons: John (b. 1823), Zechariah (b. 1826, d. 1830), and Owen (b. 1828), and I think he had a younger one too but can't find out what happened to him. Owen emigrated in 1851, Zechariah died in 1868, and in 1871 John is on the farm. John died in 1880, leaving 2 under age sons (his wife had predeceased him), and in 1881 they (John Richard and Zechariah) are boarders with a family named Mills very close to the area that the farm was at (although I can't find it on the census). The Mills seem to be at the post office, if I am reading it right, and chances are they are related, although I haven't yet figured out how -- I need to find the later wills which supposedly exist but don't seem to be online.

Both John and Zechariah then go to the US, but John is apparently lost and no one can find him. Zechariah lives near his uncle Owen. I don't know what happens to the farm although it's generally listed on the census so I should be able to find it.

Saetro
09-01-2018, 08:16 PM
Also, those Protestant communities in Wales (I don't know how much that applied to Cornwall) put high store on educating the common man in religion and letters. The Protestant printed Bible did wonders there as elsewhere in Europe (remember Mary Jones?). I suppose the miners' institutes were natural successors in propagating a love of knowledge, sometimes with a Socialist bent.

Maitland, New South Wales is a coal mining town.
In the town itself there is a large, impressive building with "Methodist Sunday School" on it.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/6865413335/ shows plans. (University of Newcastle, NSW)
This is a massive commitment to education outside Monday to Friday 9-4.
I don't know the ethnic mix at the time this was established, apart from British Isles.
Nearby are some other coal mining locations with Welsh names, so Welsh were certainly about.

My Cornish learned their letters - before compulsory public schooling arrived in the 1870s - from Methodist sunday schools in a quite different Australian mining town.
They taught the boys reading AND writing; the girls only reading.

msmarjoribanks
09-01-2018, 08:23 PM
When trying to find something on land inheritance patterns in Montgomeryshire, I happened upon this article ("The Land Question in 19th Century Wales, Scotland, and Ireland: A Comparative Study" by David W. Howell) that might be of interest to others, especially given recent topics (among other things, it touches on the relevance of nonconformity in Wales). I've only skimmed parts of it so far, but will read it in more detail:

http://www.bahs.org.uk/AGHR/ARTICLES/61_1_5_howell.pdf

Phoebe Watts
09-01-2018, 09:58 PM
Checking on the farm (Dolpebyll or Dolypebyll), it does appear to have been left to the oldest sons based on the wills available, at least during the 1800s. My immigrant ancestor is Owen Humphreys, his father was Zechariah, his father was Owen (who had an older brother John), and John's and Owen's father was John (g-grandfather of my immigrant). That final John is as far back as I have the family currently, although I need to work on them more.

The wills are online on the National Library of Wales site. "John Humphreys of Dol y pebyll" (b. 1726, d. 1803) left his younger sons and daughters the sum of 5 pounds each and all his land to his oldest son John, and to his beloved wife Mary "the old House and garden" and a certain amount of potatoes for life, as well as all the household stuff but for the clock and 5 pounds a year for life.

That oldest son John doesn't appear to have married, and he left the farm to his nephew Zechariah in 1830 (interestingly, not to any of John's younger brothers who were still alive):

"First I give and devise and bequeath unto my sister ANN that piece of land on the Rhos Llangadfan not in her occupation and containing about two acres more or less the said piece or parcel of land to my said sister ANN for and during the term of her natural life and from and after as I give and devise the said piece or parcel of land unto my nephew ZECHARIAS HUMPHREYS--

I also give and bequeath unto my said sister ANN the sum of twenty pounds. Also I give and bequeath unto my sister JANE for and during the term of her natural life and also as much ground properly prepared and manured in same piece of fallow ground on Dolypebyll Farm as will be sufficient for the planting of a strike of potatoes therein yearly and every year for and during the natural life of her my said sister JANE.

I also give and bequeath unto my said sister JANE the sum of twenty pounds. Likewise I give and bequeath unto my brother MORRIS the sum of thirty pounds and all my wearing apparel.

I give and bequeath unto my niece MARY, the daughter of my said brother MORRIS, my clock.
I give and bequeath unto my nephew ROBERT REES of Llwyniolyn the sum of ten pounds,
I also give and bequeath unto my niece MARY, wife of EDWARD REES of Penyfoel the sum like sum of ten pounds.

I also give and bequeath unto my nephews DAVID, EDWARD and JOHN brothers of my last named niece MARY, wife of the said EDWARD REES, one pound apiece. And as to all the rest, residue and remainder of my personal estate and effects whatsoever and wheresoever and of what nature kind or quality soever the be after the payment of my just debts funeral expenses and the expense of proving this my will.

I give and bequeath the same unto my nephew ZECHARIAS HUMPHREYS foresaid and I do lastly hereby nominate and make ordain and appoint my said nephew Zecharias Humphreys sole executor of this my last will and testament hereby revoking and making void all former and other wills made by me at any time heretofore made and in witness whereof I have hereunto set and subscribed my hand and seal this twentieth day of April in the year of our Lord 1830."

Zechariah had at least 3 sons: John (b. 1823), Zechariah (b. 1826, d. 1830), and Owen (b. 1828), and I think he had a younger one too but can't find out what happened to him. Owen emigrated in 1851, Zechariah died in 1868, and in 1871 John is on the farm. John died in 1880, leaving 2 under age sons (his wife had predeceased him), and in 1881 they (John Richard and Zechariah) are boarders with a family named Mills very close to the area that the farm was at (although I can't find it on the census). The Mills seem to be at the post office, if I am reading it right, and chances are they are related, although I haven't yet figured out how -- I need to find the later wills which supposedly exist but don't seem to be online.

Both John and Zechariah then go to the US, but John is apparently lost and no one can find him. Zechariah lives near his uncle Owen. I don't know what happens to the farm although it's generally listed on the census so I should be able to find it.

That is interesting. There is an entry for Zachariah Humphreys in a schedule to the Tithe maps under Llangadfan parish - here on https://places.library.wales/home. He has three tenanted properties as well as "Dol y Pebl" House and 129 acres. There might be a Land Tax entry for the properties in 1798 too.

msmarjoribanks
09-01-2018, 11:51 PM
For what it's worth (and I honestly don't know), there's a Beudy Dolpebyll (Beudy means barn?) that appears to be for rent in the right area -- its described as an 18th century detached cottage. It's close to Llangadfan, so at least in the right area, so I wonder if the outside gives a sense to what it would look like. http://www.dolpebyll.co.uk/ and https://www.sykescottages.co.uk/cottage/Mid-Wales-Cardigan-Bay-Llangadfan/Beudy-Dolpebyll-911915.html

(I kind of want to book it for a holiday).

Phoebe Watts
09-02-2018, 09:07 AM
For what it's worth (and I honestly don't know), there's a Beudy Dolpebyll (Beudy means barn?) that appears to be for rent in the right area -- its described as an 18th century detached cottage. It's close to Llangadfan, so at least in the right area, so I wonder if the outside gives a sense to what it would look like. http://www.dolpebyll.co.uk/ and https://www.sykescottages.co.uk/cottage/Mid-Wales-Cardigan-Bay-Llangadfan/Beudy-Dolpebyll-911915.html

(I kind of want to book it for a holiday).

That must be the right farm at least. Beudy should be a byre. If you visit, you'll have to visit their chapel too: http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/11365/details/llangadfan-chapel-welsh-calvinistic-methodistrehoboth-llangadfan

rms2
09-09-2018, 05:27 PM
It's too bad nobody seems to give a damn about ancient Welsh dna. It would be nice to get a good study from the Neolithic through to the Middle Ages.

JonikW
09-09-2018, 06:16 PM
It's too bad nobody seems to give a damn about ancient Welsh dna. It would be nice to get a good study from the Neolithic through to the Middle Ages.

I agree. The two samples I'd most like to see tested are from Llanmelin Wood Hillfort, in Silurian territory at Llanvair Discoed. This was abandoned in the 1st century AD, and we'd be seeing the Silures of Tacitus's description. An incomplete skeleton of a man aged 25 to 40 was found associated with a set of enclosures from the fort's last phase, as well as bones from an adult woman. My great, great grandfather lived and worked as a carter within the shadow of the fort in the mid 19th century, which adds an extra resonance for me.

Edited for typo...

rms2
09-09-2018, 06:30 PM
I agree. The two samples I'd most like to see tested are from Llanmelin Wood Hillfort, in Silurian territory at Llanvair Discoed. This was abandoned in the 1st century AD, and we'd be seeing the Silures of Tacitus's description. An incomplete skeleton of a man aged 25 to 40 was found associated with a set of enclosures from the fort's last phase, as well as bones from an adult woman. My great, great grandfather lived and worked as a carter within the shadow of the fort in the mid 19th century, which adds an extra resonance for me.

Edited for typo...

I'd like to see how much, where, and among whom my own subclade of R1b-L21 shows up (if it does at all).

It would be neat if it prevailed among some Celtic tribe like the Ordovices or the Cornovii.

JonikW
09-09-2018, 06:50 PM
I'd like to see how much, where, and among whom my own subclade of R1b-L21 shows up (if it does at all).

It would be neat if it prevailed among some Celtic tribe like the Ordovices or the Cornovii.

I hope we live to see it found, along with other aDNA results from Wales. That's what we all love about DNA, I think. We can learn something significant about those who are long gone and never had a chance to leave their stories for us. The Silures won successes against the Romans that remained unparalleled in Britain until the Brigantian and Caledonian wars of the second century. Yet not one of their names has come down to us.

msmarjoribanks
09-09-2018, 08:08 PM
I'd like to see how much, where, and among whom my own subclade of R1b-L21 shows up (if it does at all).

It would be neat if it prevailed among some Celtic tribe like the Ordovices or the Cornovii.

That's my desire too, with my dad's, but I'd also love to see if the Tacitus distinctions map on to anything in the aDNA.

CillKenny
09-10-2018, 04:24 PM
On the de Barra thesis I think it is important to say that we now know that 4.5k odd years ago there was demographic transformation in the British Isles. This has been clearly demonstrated through ancient DNA. This is highly correlated with the first appearance of ydna R1b-L21. Some also claim this may have been the vector for indo European language here too. We know too that Gaelic and Brythonic languages share a common parent. Also social organisation was very similar. What we now know is that the story of iron age invasions happened much earlier etc.

It always strikes me as facile to say a people who lived thousands of years ago and did not leave a written record would not call themselves a particular collective term that only came into being much later.

Finding these deep connections was certainly used to drive a feeling of separateness back in the 1800s but this feeling did not exist in a vacuum. There was already quiet enough to be angry about in 1862 here in Ireland at any rate.

JonikW
09-17-2018, 12:24 PM
I matched on Gedmatch with a man who turned out to be my late mother's first cousin. His family left Wales before he was born so we didn't know of his existence. Anyway, at last I've got the chance to uncover my mother's paternal Y line. He tested on MyHeritage so I ran the file through the Morley predictor, which came up with R1b L11. I'd really appreciate it if someone could take a look at this thread where I posted the details and reply there if they can help.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13779-R1b-L11-Where-from&p=490544#post490544

It looks like he's negative for U106, although I have no idea how reliable that result would be. Does that leave P312/S116 as the only possibility?

My new relatives are slowly filling me in on some family history. I've traced my great, great grandfather to Llanvair Discoed, where he was born in 1821. I have a couple of contenders with the same names for my ggg grandfather, born in the 1780s, and hope they can tell me more over the coming days. They're also going to send me a pic of my great grandfather, who like my grandfather was a miner in Cwmbran (no one on my side has ever seen one). I loved my late grandfather deeply and his Y haplogroup is as dear to me as my own. I want to know where they came from in Wales and finally feel like I'm getting somewhere.

JonikW
09-17-2018, 09:18 PM
I've started a thread now because the family has kindly agreed to test further. I'm over the moon. In fact, if a few years ago I'd had the chance to know either my grandpa's haplogroup or my own, I'd have gone for the former.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15381-R1b-L11-expertise-needed
On a specifically Welsh theme, I've been astonished about what my mum's cousin has told me. He went back to Wales every year from childhood on (he's not far off 90 now and a wonderful man who's going strong) and knew members of the family born in Victorian times. Shotgun weddings and children outside wedlock seem to have been the norm among my bunch, even in the 1890s. I had no idea. Perhaps that was the norm among mining communities? Maybe I've just got a stereotypical idea of Victorian morality...

msmarjoribanks
09-17-2018, 10:32 PM
I've started a thread now because the family has kindly agreed to test further. I'm over the moon. In fact, if a few years ago I'd had the chance to know either my grandpa's haplogroup or my own, I'd have gone for the former.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15381-R1b-L11-expertise-needed
On a specifically Welsh theme, I've been astonished about what my mum's cousin has told me. He went back to Wales every year from childhood on (he's not far off 90 now and a wonderful man who's going strong) and knew members of the family born in Victorian times. Shotgun weddings and children outside wedlock seem to have been the norm among my bunch, even in the 1890s. I had no idea. Perhaps that was the norm among mining communities? Maybe I've just got a stereotypical idea of Victorian morality...

I traced cousins who stayed in Shropshire after my ancestors moved to the London area, and in some lines of the family there was a good bit of birth out of wedlock and then marriage, not always soon enough to assume the husband was the father. You also see it a good bit just going through parish records -- every once in a while the father's name is given, usually not, sometimes it's referred to in a more condemning way than others. I found a book on the history of Diddlebury (which is where my Shropshire family mostly lived) and there's a discussion of how common births out of wedlock were -- I think they declined in early Victorian years and then increased again during the later Victorian years, but will have to check. It also discussed how likely the mother was to marry afterwards. I was interested and have another book or two on out of wedlock births in various historical periods in England, but haven't read those. Anyway, this branch of my family were agricultural labourers and servants, largely, and it did seem that once it happened in a family it happened again, which is one thing I recall that section of the Diddlebury book discussing.

Especially in earlier periods, pregnancy before marriage was apparently common, and sometimes (although obviously this varied by class) it was considered not a big deal if you were betrothed and went ahead and married. I read John Sutherland's discussion of Adam Bede which talked about how people living so closely could have failed to notice Hetty's pregnancy, and his argument is that they no doubt did but assumed that Adam (her fiance) was the father and they just needed to marry already. In Albion's Seed (about folkways in colonial America) one of the things that is supposed to have set Quakers apart is that they almost never got pregnant before marriage, different customs.

JonikW
09-17-2018, 10:47 PM
I traced cousins who stayed in Shropshire after my ancestors moved to the London area, and in some lines of the family there was a good bit of birth out of wedlock and then marriage, not always soon enough to assume the husband was the father. You also see it a good bit just going through parish records -- every once in a while the father's name is given, usually not, sometimes it's referred to in a more condemning way than others. I found a book on the history of Diddlebury (which is where my Shropshire family mostly lived) and there's a discussion of how common births out of wedlock were -- I think they declined in early Victorian years and then increased again during the later Victorian years, but will have to check. It also discussed how likely the mother was to marry afterwards. I was interested and have another book or two on out of wedlock births in various historical periods in England, but haven't read those. Anyway, this branch of my family were agricultural labourers and servants, largely, and it did seem that once it happened in a family it happened again, which is one thing I recall that section of the Diddlebury book discussing.

Especially in earlier periods, pregnancy before marriage was apparently common, and sometimes (although obviously this varied by class) it was considered not a big deal if you were betrothed and went ahead and married. I read John Sutherland's discussion of Adam Bede which talked about how people living so closely could have failed to notice Hetty's pregnancy, and his argument is that they no doubt did but assumed that Adam (her fiance) was the father and they just needed to marry already. In Albion's Seed (about folkways in colonial America) one of the things that is supposed to have set Quakers apart is that they almost never got pregnant before marriage, different customs.

Thanks, most enlightening. I read Adam Bede many years ago at university. Perhaps it's time to revisit it. I've seen Razib Khan's posts about Albion's Seed and fancied reading it. I guess my Welsh ancestors on that side were typical of their time. Come to think of it, on my father's Breconshire side they were devout Baptists and Quakers but a DNA match told me about a similar family episode that surprised me. My paternal grandmother's Watkins line were very devout. She told me we were descended from a William Watkins who was an officer in Cromwell's army and today haunts a well near his old home in the form of a bee. You can't beat the Welsh (or other Celts) for a good supernatural story.

JonikW
09-18-2018, 10:12 AM
I matched on Gedmatch with a man who turned out to be my late mother's first cousin. His family left Wales before he was born so we didn't know of his existence. Anyway, at last I've got the chance to uncover my mother's paternal Y line. He tested on MyHeritage so I ran the file through the Morley predictor, which came up with R1b L11. I'd really appreciate it if someone could take a look at this thread where I posted the details and reply there if they can help.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13779-R1b-L11-Where-from&p=490544#post490544

It looks like he's negative for U106, although I have no idea how reliable that result would be. Does that leave P312/S116 as the only possibility?

My new relatives are slowly filling me in on some family history. I've traced my great, great grandfather to Llanvair Discoed, where he was born in 1821. I have a couple of contenders with the same names for my ggg grandfather, born in the 1780s, and hope they can tell me more over the coming days. They're also going to send me a pic of my great grandfather, who like my grandfather was a miner in Cwmbran (no one on my side has ever seen one). I loved my late grandfather deeply and his Y haplogroup is as dear to me as my own. I want to know where they came from in Wales and finally feel like I'm getting somewhere.

Have now got a copy of the only known pic of my great grandfather. He was down the mines for 40 years (not in one single shift I hope :-) ). Yseq have already emailed to say the test I ordered last night is on its way to them. Here he is. Monmouthshire and Breconshire by blood, so Silures territory in ancient times.

26026

Phoebe Watts
09-22-2018, 03:53 PM
Some of these items might be interesting "Wales in 100 objects" / "Cymru mewn 100 gwrthrych"

One of my favourites is the plaque from the llyn cerrig bach hoard

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/gallery/gomer-story-wales-100-objects-15186068

JonikW
09-27-2018, 12:26 AM
I'm in the mood to reminisce so here's a pic of me and my dear late mum way back in the 1970s. It was taken in Chepstow, in Wales on the border, where we had a cottage and went from our home in Bristol every weekend. My dad bought it for £600 and wired and plumbed the place himself with me in tow. Weirdly, I think it set my template for a good place to stay: a castle or other ancient attraction as the focal point and plenty to do and see (which today includes a nice pub). It also fits perfectly with what I've learned of my DNA as somewhere bang on the border of Wales and England. Maybe Chepstow is why I've always been fascinated by borders, but that's another story... Incidentally, I love the Welsh lovespoon tea towel on the wall. I also have an abiding interest in that Welsh tradition.

26223

JonikW
09-27-2018, 09:23 AM
Following up, I dug out this pic that I took at Chepstow Castle a couple of years ago. Shortly after that, I discovered that my great great grandparents were married in the town while living at Llanvair Discoed. So the place now has an extra resonance for me along with childhood memories of visiting the castle on Saturdays and driving up the Wye valley to Tintern or visiting Caerleon and other nearby spots.

Mine's right on the border, but does anyone else have a favourite place in Wales? I can think of a few others in various parts of the country that come close.

26244

Webb
10-18-2018, 07:00 PM
Netflix released a new movie in the U.S.: "Apostle", 2018 directed by Gareth Evans that features a predominately Welsh cast. My wife and I watched it last night. It is a horror/cult movie that takes place on a supposed island off the coast of Wales. It was good. It was nice seeing a mostly Welsh cast in a mainstream movie.

Trelvern
10-18-2018, 07:41 PM
Netflix released a new movie in the U.S.: "Apostle", 2018 directed by Gareth Evans that features a predominately Welsh cast. My wife and I watched it last night. It is a horror/cult movie that takes place on a supposed island off the coast of Wales. It was good. It was nice seeing a mostly Welsh cast in a mainstream movie.


I looked tonight better call saul and saw that we had here also in France "apostle" (le bon apôtre)
I also plan to look at it as long as it is not too bloody.

Webb
10-18-2018, 08:07 PM
I looked tonight better call saul and saw that we had here also in France "apostle" (le bon apôtre)
I also plan to look at it as long as it is not too bloody.

j

It is pretty gory. I have seen worse, but this is up there with gore.

Webb
10-18-2018, 08:08 PM
Glitch caused a duplicate post!!!!

Trelvern
10-18-2018, 08:16 PM
Some of these items might be interesting "Wales in 100 objects" / "Cymru mewn 100 gwrthrych"

One of my favourites is the plaque from the llyn cerrig bach hoard

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/gallery/gomer-story-wales-100-objects-15186068


The castle of Harlech is that of the famous song "men of Harlech"?
Where is this castle exactly?

Many Welsh tunes are known here.... Y deryn pur (Mary Hopkin is not forgotten), Calon lan (Sian James), Ar hyd y nos (Meinir Gwilym) ..
The Bretons went so far as to copy the Welsh national anthem!

Phoebe Watts
10-18-2018, 09:59 PM
@ Trelvern

I'm pleased that you read the Welsh thread.

Sorry I can't post a quote. Yes you are right. Harlech castle as one of Edward I's castles built by James of St George. It is on the west coast on Cardigan Bay - See here: https://cadw.gov.wales/daysout/harlechcastle/?skip=1&lang=en

The song is said to be about the seven year siege of the castle from 1461 in the Wars of the Roses when the Lancastrians held the castle against the Yorkists. There was an earlier siege too during Owain Glyndwr's campaign in the early 1400s.

We still value links with Llydaw and the music and dancing and the Fest Noz are known here too. I haven't visited for a long time but I remember a very warm welcome. I did learn a little Llydaweg but I don't remember very much! I can work out some placenames and some of the saints names are very familiar of course.

JonikW
10-18-2018, 10:03 PM
The castle of Harlech is that of the famous song "men of Harlech"?
Where is this castle exactly?

Many Welsh tunes are known here.... Y deryn pur (Mary Hopkin is not forgotten), Calon lan (Sian James), Ar hyd y nos (Meinir Gwilym) ..
The Bretons went so far as to copy the Welsh national anthem!

That's the place in the song. I haven't been there since childhood but remember being struck by my first sight of the castle. It's in North Wales and I visited way back in the 80s when we rarely ventured outside South Wales. I've still got a book of Welsh folk tales that I bought on that trip (my interests haven't changed at least). I didn't know that about the anthem. Is the tune used as the Breton anthem or for something else? Nice to discover that Welsh tunes are known in Brittany and also to have a Breton posting on this Welsh thread.

Phoebe Watts
10-18-2018, 10:24 PM
The words to the anthem are an adaptation too. The title and some of the lines are very similar. "Tra mor yn fur" / "Tra ma vo mor 'vel mur" (or roughly, as long as the sea is a wall) is relevant to the geography of both countries.

There is also a Cornish version.

JonikW
10-18-2018, 11:24 PM
Duplicate post...

JonikW
10-18-2018, 11:25 PM
The words to the anthem are an adaptation too. The title and some of the lines are very similar. "Tra mor yn fur" / "Tra ma vo mor 'vel mur" (or roughly, as long as the sea is a wall) is relevant to the geography of both countries.

There is also a Cornish version.

Interesting to hear that about Cornish. I was intrigued to read this recently in a Victorian book called A Handbook of the Cornish Language:
"In 1746 Captain (afterwards Admiral) the Hon. Samuel Barrington, brother of Daines Barrington the antiquary, took a sailor from Mount’s Bay, who spoke Cornish, to the opposite coast of Brittany, and found him fairly able to make himself understood."

And this:
"In a survey of Cornwall, by John Norden, entitled Speculum Magnæ Britanniæ, pars Cornwall, addressed to James I., the following account of the language is given. “The Cornish people for the moste parte are descended of British stocke, though muche mixed since with the Saxon and Norman bloude, but untill of late years retayned the British speache uncorrupted as theirs of Wales is. For the South Wales man understandeth not perfectly the North Wales man, and the North Wales man little of the Cornish, but the South Wales man much. The pronunciation of the tongue differs in all, but the Cornish is far the easier to be pronounced.”

ADD: Most of us here are fully aware of the history of the Celtic languages and their branches but that book was a good read and you can download the 1904 edition free on Kindle.

Trelvern
10-19-2018, 05:58 AM
That's the place in the song. I haven't been there since childhood but remember being struck by my first sight of the castle. It's in North Wales and I visited way back in the 80s when we rarely ventured outside South Wales. I've still got a book of Welsh folk tales that I bought on that trip (my interests haven't changed at least). I didn't know that about the anthem. Is the tune used as the Breton anthem or for something else? Nice to discover that Welsh tunes are known in Brittany and also to have a Breton posting on this Welsh thread.



"Bro Gozh Ma Zadoù" (in Breton, "the old country of my fathers") is the Breton national anthem.
Brittany shares its anthem with Cornwall (Bro Goth Agan Tasow) and Wales (Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau). The texts are almost the same, in Breton, Cornish and Welsh.
In January 2018, the national choir of the BBC in Wales interpreted the 2 hymns in the new concert hall of the "Couvent des Jacobins de Rennes".
The anthem was also played at the Stade de France (Rennes v Guingamp) but this time it was not appreciated by everyone.
France has a centralizing tradition. It is written in the constitution that French is THE (single) language of the republic and express themselves in another language in the public space is lived as a kind of separatism (communitarianism) . Bad memories that go back to WW2 too.

Helgenes50
10-19-2018, 09:40 AM
"Bro Gozh Ma Zadoù" (in Breton, "the old country of my fathers") is the Breton national anthem.
Brittany shares its anthem with Cornwall (Bro Goth Agan Tasow) and Wales (Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau). The texts are almost the same, in Breton, Cornish and Welsh.
In January 2018, the national choir of the BBC in Wales interpreted the 2 hymns in the new concert hall of the "Couvent des Jacobins de Rennes".
The anthem was also played at the Stade de France (Rennes v Guingamp) but this time it was not appreciated by everyone.
France has a centralizing tradition. It is written in the constitution that French is THE (single) language of the republic and express themselves in another language in the public space is lived as a kind of separatism (communitarianism) . Bad memories that go back to WW2 too.

Trelvern,

Do you know the language of your ancestors ?

Desket 'm'eus langaj ho tadou, m'eus labouret evel animatour e Brezhoneg er bloavezhiou 90, e bro an aberiou.
Breman 'mon o chom e Breizh, m'eus c'hoant da gaozeal adarre ha kaout brezhonegerien a-vihan.

Tost-tre 'maomp war ur PCA, n'eo ket 'vit nitra !!!

Trelvern
10-19-2018, 10:44 AM
Trelvern,

Do you know the language of your ancestors ?

Desket 'm'eus langaj ho tadou, m'eus labouret evel animatour e Brezhoneg er bloavezhiou 90, e bro an aberiou.
Breman 'mon o chom e Breizh, m'eus c'hoant da gaozeal adarre ha kaout brezhonegerien a-vihan.

Tost-tre 'maomp war ur PCA, n'eo ket 'vit nitra !!!Alas no


When I was a child, my parents, both breton speakers, spoke Breton to each other when they wanted me not to understand.
It is a painful memory to have sometimes had "foreign" parents.
They did not want to give me the language because they were ashamed of it. This situation explains the rapid decline of the language.
I tried to learn it but without success.
you are more breton than me Helgenes!

Helgenes50
10-19-2018, 11:19 AM
Alas no


When I was a child, my parents, both breton speakers, spoke Breton to each other when they wanted me not to understand.
It is a painful memory to have sometimes had "foreign" parents.
They did not want to give me the language because they were ashamed of it. This situation explains the rapid decline of the language.
I tried to learn it but without success.
you are more breton than me Helgenes!

Unfortunately, this is the case of many Breton. The republic succeeded where generations of French kings had failed
But I think that the Bretons themselves, even if they are not really guilty, are responsible for this situation.

For me, it's strange for a Norman but it would have been a lack if I had not learned this language, I have a library in Breton.
I have the same pleasure with the breton as Angles with the German and Nordic languages
I was crazy about this language .... me oa..ha zo sot ga'r brezhoneg !!!
thanks for the compliment

Phoebe Watts
10-20-2018, 10:18 AM
I was trying to decipher the post from Helgenes. I understood the first line of Breton because there are words that are similar in Welsh. Then I got stuck. I remembered the automatic translator on http://www.brezhoneg.bzh/

Helgenes50
10-20-2018, 10:56 AM
I was trying to decipher the post from Helgenes. I understood the first line of Breton because there are words that are similar in Welsh. Then I got stuck. I remembered the automatic translator on http://www.brezhoneg.bzh/

Welsh and Breton are very close for a lot of words.

Roughly the translation is ( sometimes my breton is close to the spoken language )

I learned the language of your fathers, I worked as animator in Breton in the 90s, in the country of Abers.
Now, that I live in Brittany, I would like to talk again and find Native speakers

Trelvern
10-20-2018, 11:09 AM
I was trying to decipher the post from Helgenes. I understood the first line of Breton because there are words that are similar in Welsh. Then I got stuck. I remembered the automatic translator on http://www.brezhoneg.bzh/

I only understood the first line too.
We are equal!

JonikW
11-05-2018, 10:26 PM
I wonder if someone can help me with deciphering a Welsh baptism entry for 1770. I believe this is my ggg grandfather, Philip Jones, and the parish is Llanvair Discoed, or Llanfair Is Coed as it was then. It took me a long time to track him down. I see the father's name is Thomas and the mother's name looks like Elizabeth with a ligature, rather than "Eliza" as might first appear. But what has been scribbled out under the words "his wife"? The entry is a few lines down on the left-hand page.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0DjKa-zaOImUmtVY0xMdUJCaHFnLUVBYm1sTnA3enVQaVc0/view?usp=drivesdk

slievenamon
11-05-2018, 11:38 PM
I cannot decipher the scratched out word, under 'his wife'.
The record is clearly Philip, son of Thomas Jones and Eliza, his wife, baptised May 20, 1770.
Hope it's the entry you seek for your ggg grandfather...

JonikW
11-06-2018, 09:05 AM
I cannot decipher the scratched out word, under 'his wife'.
The record is clearly Philip, son of Thomas Jones and Eliza, his wife, baptised May 20, 1770.
Hope it's the entry you seek for your ggg grandfather...

Someone who has transcribed many 18th century documents tells me that the scribbled out name is Jones and that the superscript means the first name is indeed Elizabeth. I would never have known the latter if I'd only looked at the family search.org transcription, which records it as Eliza.

Phoebe Watts
11-06-2018, 11:54 AM
Someone who has transcribed many 18th century documents tells me that the scribbled out name is Jones...

If not Jones, it might be Davies?

JonikW
11-06-2018, 11:18 PM
If not Jones, it might be Davies?

Thanks for that. Does anyone know how comprehensive sites such as familysearch and Ancestry are for Wales? For instance I am trying to track down Thomas and Elizabeth Jones, the parents of Philip Jones who was baptised at Llanvair Discoed in 1770. Familysearch has only one Monmouthshire Thomas Jones marrying an Elizabeth between 1730 and 1775, and there are none as far as I can see on Ancestry. Surely that must be way out. I found an article saying all 8 million records since 1538 "are being published" by familysearch. How far down the line are they?

Phoebe Watts
11-07-2018, 11:49 AM
Thanks for that. Does anyone know how comprehensive sites such as familysearch and Ancestry are for Wales? For instance I am trying to track down Thomas and Elizabeth Jones, the parents of Philip Jones who was baptised at Llanvair Discoed in 1770. Familysearch has only one Monmouthshire Thomas Jones marrying an Elizabeth between 1730 and 1775, and there are none as far as I can see on Ancestry. Surely that must be way out. I found an article saying all 8 million records since 1538 "are being published" by familysearch. How far down the line are they?

You will need familysearch if you are researching Welsh ancestry online. It has improved with recent updates but is still patchy in earlier years. In the rural north and west records haven’t survived as well as in other areas so have you checked whether parish records have survived in the mid 1700s in the likely parishes?

JonikW
11-07-2018, 03:39 PM
You will need familysearch if you are researching Welsh ancestry online. It has improved with recent updates but is still patchy in earlier years. In the rural north and west records haven’t survived as well as in other areas so have you checked whether parish records have survived in the mid 1700s in the likely parishes?

If I just search for marriages with no names in "Llanfair Isgoed" on familysearch they start in the 17th century. I guess my Thomas (and/or Elizabeth) were from outside the parish because they don't show up in searches, although other Jones marriages do. It just seems that finding only one Thomas Jones marrying an Elizabeth in the whole of Monmouthshire between 1730 and 1775 points to disappointing gaps in what's available online. Still, I suppose I've been lucky to get back that far given the surname.