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Phoebe Watts
11-07-2018, 04:54 PM
If I just search for marriages with no names in "Llanfair Isgoed" on familysearch they start in the 17th century. I guess my Thomas (and/or Elizabeth) were from outside the parish because they don't show up in searches, although other Jones marriages do. It just seems that finding only one Thomas Jones marrying an Elizabeth in the whole of Monmouthshire between 1730 and 1775 points to disappointing gaps in what's available online. Still, I suppose I've been lucky to get back that far given the surname.

I haven’t been able to replicate those results - I’m seeing over 13,000 marriage/banns records between 1730 and 1770 with 6 relating to Thomas Jones with Elizabeth.

I had a look at Llanfair Discoed and the earliest marriage entries are from the register starting in 1795. It looks as if there are earlier registers that are not on findmypast.

I hope that helps.

I have been able to get back to the 1600s in findmypast registers for some of my lines - but others are quite limited.

castle3
11-07-2018, 07:47 PM
Just a cautionary note for anyone studying Welsh pedigrees: Edward Williams, aka Iolo Morgannwg (1747-1826), was an infamous forger of Welsh pedigrees. I would urge anyone studying their lineage to research his impact on Welsh genealogy.

JonikW
11-07-2018, 07:54 PM
I haven’t been able to replicate those results - I’m seeing over 13,000 marriage/banns records between 1730 and 1770 with 6 relating to Thomas Jones with Elizabeth.

I had a look at Llanfair Discoed and the earliest marriage entries are from the register starting in 1795. It looks as if there are earlier registers that are not on findmypast.

I hope that helps.

I have been able to get back to the 1600s in findmypast registers for some of my lines - but others are quite limited.

I appreciate that. Were the six on findmypast? I'll ask a distant cousin on that line to search if so.

Phoebe Watts
11-08-2018, 12:37 PM
I appreciate that. Were the six on findmypast? I'll ask a distant cousin on that line to search if so.

Yes - those are the findmypast results yesterday. It should be worth making enquiries locally for the pre 1795 register entries for Llanfair lsgoed. I think there may be a transcription on sale too so you might be able to get someone to look it up for you.

JonikW
11-17-2018, 01:08 AM
BBC is showing an enjoyable series called The Story of Wales, which is available on iPlayer. Much of it will be familiar, but I've had a some unexpected insights. Anyway, it's worth watching and Huw Edwards is a likeable presenter. Check it out if you can.
EDIT: Making clear there is more than one episode.

msmarjoribanks
11-18-2018, 07:49 PM
BBC is showing an enjoyable series called The Story of Wales, which is available on iPlayer. Much of it will be familiar, but I've had a some unexpected insights. Anyway, it's worth watching and Huw Edwards is a likeable presenter. Check it out if you can.
EDIT: Making clear there is more than one episode.

I started that a while ago (I think I watched the first couple), need to get back to it!

I was actually coming over here to mention a show called Project Restoration. Description is: "Historical building surveyor Marianne Suhr tours the UK looking for the most exciting, unusual and traditional restoration projects. With her priceless advice for the owners and hands-on attitude, Marianne will be making repairs to crumbling castle walls, mixing up some building mud in her mission to give Britain's rich architectural heritage the treatment it deserves."

Episode 5 starts following a couple restoring a farm cottage in South Wales (the same episode includes a couple of other projects), and apparently it continues in subsequent episodes. The couple, who are architects, say that the cottage was originally tai unnos, and the description of the axe throwing sounded a bit like legend to me, but apparently not:

http://www.celticcottages.co.uk/

"The bulk of West Wales cottages which still survive were built during the 18th and 19th century, in response to the demand for additional housing between the middle of the eighteenth and the middle of the nineteenth century. This put a lot of pressure on the land which was available at the time. Use of the common land by means of the famous tai unnos or "One Night" became widespread.

The origins of tai unnos were; the dwelling could be built on common land, the builder had to complete the dwelling overnight. Smoke had to rise from the chimney by the morning, the builder then threw an axe from the front door of the cottage, and the distance he could throw the axe determined the boundary of the property. The cottage dweller then had time to build a more permanent dwelling to replace the original turf and thatch dwelling."

Phoebe Watts
11-18-2018, 09:58 PM
I started that a while ago (I think I watched the first couple), need to get back to it!

I was actually coming over here to mention a show called Project Restoration. Description is: "Historical building surveyor Marianne Suhr tours the UK looking for the most exciting, unusual and traditional restoration projects. With her priceless advice for the owners and hands-on attitude, Marianne will be making repairs to crumbling castle walls, mixing up some building mud in her mission to give Britain's rich architectural heritage the treatment it deserves."

Episode 5 starts following a couple restoring a farm cottage in South Wales (the same episode includes a couple of other projects), and apparently it continues in subsequent episodes. The couple, who are architects, say that the cottage was originally tai unnos, and the description of the axe throwing sounded a bit like legend to me, but apparently not:

http://www.celticcottages.co.uk/

"The bulk of West Wales cottages which still survive were built during the 18th and 19th century, in response to the demand for additional housing between the middle of the eighteenth and the middle of the nineteenth century. This put a lot of pressure on the land which was available at the time. Use of the common land by means of the famous tai unnos or "One Night" became widespread.

The origins of tai unnos were; the dwelling could be built on common land, the builder had to complete the dwelling overnight. Smoke had to rise from the chimney by the morning, the builder then threw an axe from the front door of the cottage, and the distance he could throw the axe determined the boundary of the property. The cottage dweller then had time to build a more permanent dwelling to replace the original turf and thatch dwelling."

I have found a reference in my tree to what might be a ty unnos in the mid 1700s.

My 5x greatgrandfather was a shopkeeper living near the east coast of Anglesey. He seems to have brought his stock in by sea from Liverpool and made profits that he used to buy land. There are surviving legal papers relating to one of his purchases that turned sour and he tried to stop the deal because there was undisclosed development on the land. The suggestion there is that a cottage was built on undeveloped land that wasn’t common land. I’ll have to try to find out more.

Phoebe Watts
12-07-2018, 03:47 PM
Just a cautionary note for anyone studying Welsh pedigrees: Edward Williams, aka Iolo Morgannwg (1747-1826), was an infamous forger of Welsh pedigrees. I would urge anyone studying their lineage to research his impact on Welsh genealogy.

I would suggest that anyone interested in Welsh history and culture should read up on Iolo Morganwg - “the most interesting Welshman ever” according to the publisher’s description for a recent biography. Here is a link to a project on Iolo: http://iolomorganwg.wales.ac.uk/index.php

I’m not aware of an accessible source on genealogical forgery but even for the 1800s an up to date guide to researching Welsh family history is a good starting point. There are resources on the National Library of Wales website too.

rms2
12-16-2018, 01:15 PM
Don't want to be accused of cross posting, but I wanted to mention my own y-chromosome cluster, discovered by Rick Arnold and christened R1b-41-1123 by Mike Walsh before we knew it had a specific SNP that characterized it. It doesn't appear to be a large, widespread cluster. Over time the evidence has mounted that it is primarily confined to the old Welsh kingdom of Powys: mid-Wales and the Welsh Borders.

Well, the SNP that characterizes the R1b-41-1123 cluster is BY166, also known as Z18021, with a tmrca that takes us back to about 1450 AD, before surnames became fixed among the Welsh, which explains the relatively close STR matches in our cluster among men with a number of different surnames. Well, yesterday I was able to add another surname to our growing list: Lloyd. A man with that surname whose y-dna ancestor is John Lloyd, 1660-1719, from old Radnorshire, Wales, emailed me because he got an R-Z18021 y-dna test result from 23andMe. He googled Z18021 and came across the R1b-41-1123 web site. (Good thing I have alternate SNP names listed as "surnames" on the project web site; otherwise this gentleman never would have found us.)

Now I'm trying to convince Mr. Lloyd to test with FTDNA so he can join our project. I was really pleased to hear from him, in part because it is further confirmation of the Welshness of the cluster, and also because it's neat that 23andMe might prove to be another source from which we can acquire more knowledge about it.

27696

The places outside Wales and far western England for a couple of surnames pictured above aren't likely to be the true places of origin for our members bearing those names. I'd like to explain, but privacy considerations restrain me from saying more.

JonikW
12-16-2018, 09:34 PM
Don't want to be accused of cross posting, but I wanted to mention my own y-chromosome cluster, discovered by Rick Arnold and christened R1b-41-1123 by Mike Walsh before we knew it had a specific SNP that characterized it. It doesn't appear to be a large, widespread cluster. Over time the evidence has mounted that it is primarily confined to the old Welsh kingdom of Powys: mid-Wales and the Welsh Borders.

Well, the SNP that characterizes the R1b-41-1123 cluster is BY166, also known as Z18021, with a tmrca that takes us back to about 1450 AD, before surnames became fixed among the Welsh, which explains the relatively close STR matches in our cluster among men with a number of different surnames. Well, yesterday I was able to add another surname to our growing list: Lloyd. A man with that surname whose y-dna ancestor is John Lloyd, 1660-1719, from old Radnorshire, Wales, emailed me because he got an R-Z18021 y-dna test result from 23andMe. He googled Z18021 and came across the R1b-41-1123 web site. (Good thing I have alternate SNP names listed as "surnames" on the project web site; otherwise this gentleman never would have found us.)

Now I'm trying to convince Mr. Lloyd to test with FTDNA so he can join our project. I was really pleased to hear from him, in part because it is further confirmation of the Welshness of the cluster, and also because it's neat that 23andMe might prove to be another source from which we can acquire more knowledge about it.

27696

The places outside Wales and far western England for a couple of surnames pictured above aren't likely to be the true places of origin for our members bearing those names. I'd like to explain, but privacy considerations restrain me from saying more.

Nice work and a beautifully mapped site that is an example to us all. Interesting that Lloyd is firmly in Powys, and I can imagine the journeys of others who left Wales. I'm also really pleased to see the detail that 23andme is giving these days. They've just started selling in a big UK pharmacy chain, Boots, so hopefully you'll be adding to that Welsh database soon.

rms2
12-16-2018, 11:08 PM
Nice work and a beautifully mapped site that is an example to us all. Interesting that Lloyd is firmly in Powys, and I can imagine the journeys of others who left Wales. I'm also really pleased to see the detail that 23andme is giving these days. They've just started selling in a big UK pharmacy chain, Boots, so hopefully you'll be adding to that Welsh database soon.

That's good news.

I wish FTDNA was a bit more popular there.

msmarjoribanks
12-16-2018, 11:54 PM
If the 23andMe is getting more detailed for YDNA, that's great news.

Looking at my mom's dad's Y-line, which could be Welsh, but there's still a big question mark, the most specific result on 23andMe currently is R-P311, which is basically useless. I have two on that line on FTDNA, but only at the R-M269 level, so need more testing to get more information. I should ask the group for advice and offer to buy the tests (I haven't wanted to buy BigY, as that's so expensive).

I don't currently have a Y tester for my 100% unquestionably Welsh immigrant to the US lines (Humphreys and, of course, Jones), but should work on it.

I was all excited when I matched with a descendant of my immigrant ancestor Griffith Jones (through his son, also Griffith Jones, I am descended through his daughter Jane and her husband Owen Humphreys), as his name was Jones (as is mine). Then I realized that, like mine, it was a different Jones on his male line. Sigh.

JonikW
12-17-2018, 12:38 AM
If the 23andMe is getting more detailed for YDNA, that's great news.

Looking at my mom's dad's Y-line, which could be Welsh, but there's still a big question mark, the most specific result on 23andMe currently is R-P311, which is basically useless. I have two on that line on FTDNA, but only at the R-M269 level, so need more testing to get more information. I should ask the group for advice and offer to buy the tests (I haven't wanted to buy BigY, as that's so expensive).

I don't currently have a Y tester for my 100% unquestionably Welsh immigrant to the US lines (Humphreys and, of course, Jones), but should work on it.

I was all excited when I matched with a descendant of my immigrant ancestor Griffith Jones (through his son, also Griffith Jones, I am descended through his daughter Jane and her husband Owen Humphreys), as his name was Jones (as is mine). Then I realized that, like mine, it was a different Jones on his male line. Sigh.

The perennial Welsh Jones problem! I've contacted so many in the hope that I match on my mother's paternal line only to find that isn't the case...

Phoebe Watts
12-17-2018, 10:37 AM
I was all excited when I matched with a descendant of my immigrant ancestor Griffith Jones (through his son, also Griffith Jones, I am descended through his daughter Jane and her husband Owen Humphreys), as his name was Jones (as is mine). Then I realized that, like mine, it was a different Jones on his male line. Sigh.

I had supposed that the barrier to Y-line research for people of Welsh descent was the survival of the patronymic and not just the number of Joneses. My father’s most recent known ancestor on that line is his 2G grandfather born about 1780 in the Swansea Valley. He had a common patronymic-based “surname” and if, as seems likely, the family were there before industrialisation I guess that his father or grandfather was the first to adopt a surname. R-L21 in Wales with no surname... It doesn’t seem worth considering more tests.

rms2
12-17-2018, 01:03 PM
I had supposed that the barrier to Y-line research for people of Welsh descent was the survival of the patronymic and not just the number of Joneses. My father’s most recent known ancestor on that line is his 2G grandfather born about 1780 in the Swansea Valley. He had a common patronymic-based “surname” and if, as seems likely, the family were there before industrialisation I guess that his father or grandfather was the first to adopt a surname. R-L21 in Wales with no surname... It doesn’t seem worth considering more tests.

Oh, I think it's worth it. Finding a sufficiently well developed terminal SNP could be quite useful. It has been for me.

msmarjoribanks
12-17-2018, 04:40 PM
The perennial Welsh Jones problem! I've contacted so many in the hope that I match on my mother's paternal line only to find that isn't the case...

My dad is in the Jones project, and has no matches. I didn't have high hopes for the project given that there are so many separate sources for Jones, but it would be nice to have a match on that line.

We don't have any close Y matches at all, however, regardless of surname.

I have been trying to trace forward male descendants on that line, and once I get out of the US it's really hard. I do have some (not tested) male line descendants of my immigrant ancestor (who came here in 1870), but of his 4 brothers, one went to Australia and I don't know what happened to him after that, one died young without children, one stayed in the UK and had 2 daughters only, and another one went to the US and had only one child, a daughter. Going back a generation, the family just disappears -- they had a farm in Shropshire, oldest son is my ancestor, moves near London. Next son disappears after the 1851 census (when he was 19 and at home). Next son (John Jones) moves away from the farm but stays in the general area (labourer), but good luck finding a John Jones through census records and being at all confident about it if he gets mobile. The only reason I was able to trace them at all in earlier records was that they were in the parish records and in the same spot.

Around the turn of the century there are Joneses on basically the same land as the family was farming in 1841 and 1851, but I have no reason to assume they are the same family.

I need to do more work with the land-related records, as well as probate.

jdean
12-17-2018, 06:08 PM
Around the turn of the century there are Joneses on basically the same land as the family was farming in 1841 and 1851, but I have no reason to assume they are the same family.

On my mother's side we have a Pritchard family who farmed near Trelleck (not such a big place) in the 19th C. so I was interested to meet a Pritchard family who still farmed there, however it transpired they had moved to the area (from Llanwern) within the last couple of decades : )

rms2
12-21-2018, 01:00 PM
The perennial Welsh Jones problem! I've contacted so many in the hope that I match on my mother's paternal line only to find that isn't the case...

We have a Jones in my y-dna cluster whose y-dna ancestor came from Ceredigion. As I recall without looking, he is a 105/111 match for me.

He tested R1b-BY166+ from the a la carte SNP menu, but I haven't been able to talk him into the Big Y-500. That's too bad, because he is an even closer match for one of our members with the surname Samuel, who has done the Big Y-500. It would be nice to see if the two of them share an as-yet-unknown SNP downstream of BY166. (BY166 is the SNP furthest downstream shared in common by all members of our group, with branches downstream of it shared by some members.)

rms2
12-22-2018, 01:35 AM
We have a Jones in my y-dna cluster whose y-dna ancestor came from Ceredigion. As I recall without looking, he is a 105/111 match for me.

He tested R1b-BY166+ from the a la carte SNP menu, but I haven't been able to talk him into the Big Y-500. That's too bad, because he is an even closer match for one of our members with the surname Samuel, who has done the Big Y-500. It would be nice to see if the two of them share an as-yet-unknown SNP downstream of BY166. (BY166 is the SNP furthest downstream shared in common by all members of our group, with branches downstream of it shared by some members.)

I should mention that we have another Jones who is a 37-marker match for everyone in our cluster. The two Joneses don't know each other, and we don't know how they might be related, because the 37-marker Jones never answered any of my emails and, naturally, hasn't joined our project.

msmarjoribanks
12-22-2018, 03:08 AM
Are they in the Jones project? Assuming not, worth mentioning it -- we have a Facebook group and email list. Many like surname projects even if they aren't interested in really learning about YDNA. Many Joneses likely think it's not worth bothering, but if they know there's a large and active project maybe it will spark interest.

rms2
12-23-2018, 12:27 PM
Are they in the Jones project? Assuming not, worth mentioning it -- we have a Facebook group and email list. Many like surname projects even if they aren't interested in really learning about YDNA. Many Joneses likely think it's not worth bothering, but if they know there's a large and active project maybe it will spark interest.

I'm not sure. The one Jones who belongs to our project does not allow administrators to peak inside his myFTDNA pages. My first impulse is to jettison people like that, but our group isn't large, so we need all the data we can get.

jdean
12-23-2018, 12:37 PM
My first impulse is to jettison people like that

Me too

rms2
12-23-2018, 01:07 PM
Me too

I've got a second cousin once removed in the project who is the same way, but he gave me his password long ago, so it's not really a problem.

rms2
12-23-2018, 01:56 PM
I don't know if this is the right thread to mention this in, but way back in 2012 a man with my surname showed up as an exact 12-marker y-dna match for me. Not a huge deal, possibly meaningless, but I've gotten some good matches that began as mere 12-marker jobs. Anyway, I emailed the man more than once, but never got a reply.

Just a couple of days ago, however, one of my project members got his Family Finder results. Who showed up as a fairly substantial match for him? You guessed it: our old exact 12-marker match buddy. I remembered the name because his first and middle names are somewhat unusual for an American.

So this morning I decided like O.J. Simpson to take another stab at it and launched yet another email plea, this time including the information about the Family Finder match.

We'll see if anything comes of it.

jdean
12-23-2018, 02:31 PM
I don't know if this is the right thread to mention this in, but way back in 2012 a man with my surname showed up as an exact 12-marker y-dna match for me. Not a huge deal, possibly meaningless, but I've gotten some good matches that began as mere 12-marker jobs. Anyway, I emailed the man more than once, but never got a reply.

Just a couple of days ago, however, one of my project members got his Family Finder results. Who showed up as a fairly substantial match for him? You guessed it: our old exact 12-marker match buddy. I remembered the name because his first and middle names are somewhat unusual for an American.

So this morning I decided like O.J. Simpson to take another stab at it and launched yet another email plea, this time including the information about the Family Finder match.

We'll see if anything comes of it.

Has he added a tree or MDKA to his FTDNA page ?

MitchellSince1893
12-23-2018, 04:46 PM
I don't know if this is the right thread to mention this in, but way back in 2012 a man with my surname showed up as an exact 12-marker y-dna match for me. Not a huge deal, possibly meaningless, but I've gotten some good matches that began as mere 12-marker jobs. Anyway, I emailed the man more than once, but never got a reply.

Just a couple of days ago, however, one of my project members got his Family Finder results. Who showed up as a fairly substantial match for him? You guessed it: our old exact 12-marker match buddy. I remembered the name because his first and middle names are somewhat unusual for an American.

So this morning I decided like O.J. Simpson to take another stab at it and launched yet another email plea, this time including the information about the Family Finder match.

We'll see if anything comes of it.

Just curious how many 37, 67, 111 matches you have?

rms2
12-23-2018, 10:32 PM
Just curious how many 37, 67, 111 matches you have?

Here are the stats:

37 markers: 39 matches

67 markers: 27 matches

111 markers: 17 matches

Of those, 14 at 37 markers share my surname; 10 at 67 markers share my surname; and 9 at 111 share my surname. Some of those at 37 and 67 would still match me at 111, but they haven't tested that far; my two sons, for example, the oldest of whom has only gone as far as 37 markers, and the youngest, who has gone to 67.

I think our immigrant Stephens/Stevens ancestor was pretty prolific. At least his sons were. Over the years since the spring of 2006, when I got my initial Y-37 results, Stephens/Stevens matches have popped up from time to time. Some of them I recruited because I am driven to be proactive, but most have just come in on their own. I've made what I consider some pretty close friends this way, even among guys who pretty obviously are at the opposite end of the political/philosophical spectrum from me.

Of course, it helps that I am a classical liberal/libertarian. I really believe people ought to be allowed to think what they want to think.

Oh, here's another point. My cluster has a tmrca that takes us back to not too long before surnames became fixed in Wales. So we're all descended from some prolific Welshman who had a whole bunch of sons who had sons whose sons took various Welsh patronymics that eventually evolved into a number of different fixed surnames, based on who the luck of the draw made the last male progenitor as surnames became fixed.

rms2
12-23-2018, 10:33 PM
Has he added a tree or MDKA to his FTDNA page ?

No, unfortunately.

msmarjoribanks
12-24-2018, 05:37 AM
How many of those did you encourage to test, if any?

My dad currently has 2 matches at 67 (6 and 7 GD, and they have different versions of the same surname, but a different one than my father's, although also a patronymic). (Although these are distant, they might be worth testing given the low numbers of DF63, and that they are likely to be DF63, although who knows.)

He has 3 37 matches, at 0, 2, and 3 GD. The 0 is in a surname project (no matches, and none of the surnames of the 37 matches are the same as my dad's or as the 67-marker matches), and has no matches in that project.

Ideas in how to progress? I would like to convince the 37 matches to test further, but none have responded to my suggestions. I've thought about getting my English cousins to test if I can find them, but am not sure what that would get me. I can find my US cousins (2nd or 3rd of mine), but not sure the point/what that would achieve.

JonikW
12-24-2018, 10:26 AM
How many of those did you encourage to test, if any?

My dad currently has 2 matches at 67 (6 and 7 GD, and they have different versions of the same surname, but a different one than my father's, although also a patronymic). (Although these are distant, they might be worth testing given the low numbers of DF63, and that they are likely to be DF63, although who knows.)

He has 3 37 matches, at 0, 2, and 3 GD. The 0 is in a surname project (no matches, and none of the surnames of the 37 matches are the same as my dad's or as the 67-marker matches), and has no matches in that project.

Ideas in how to progress? I would like to convince the 37 matches to test further, but none have responded to my suggestions. I've thought about getting my English cousins to test if I can find them, but am not sure what that would get me. I can find my US cousins (2nd or 3rd of mine), but not sure the point/what that would achieve.

I wonder the same after testing my late mother's Jones line (my grandfather's) when I found her first cousin by matching him on Gedmatch and MyHeritage. (I posted on it earlier.) The YSEQ test I got for him showed they are L371 > BY11922 - so very Welsh - but I don't know how to proceed or whether there's anything more to be gained.

rms2
12-24-2018, 04:29 PM
How many of those did you encourage to test, if any?

My dad currently has 2 matches at 67 (6 and 7 GD, and they have different versions of the same surname, but a different one than my father's, although also a patronymic). (Although these are distant, they might be worth testing given the low numbers of DF63, and that they are likely to be DF63, although who knows.)

He has 3 37 matches, at 0, 2, and 3 GD. The 0 is in a surname project (no matches, and none of the surnames of the 37 matches are the same as my dad's or as the 67-marker matches), and has no matches in that project.

Ideas in how to progress? I would like to convince the 37 matches to test further, but none have responded to my suggestions. I've thought about getting my English cousins to test if I can find them, but am not sure what that would get me. I can find my US cousins (2nd or 3rd of mine), but not sure the point/what that would achieve.

Let's see. My dad and my two sons are absolutely my doing, because I paid for their tests. For my dad, I did the Geno 2.0, so he only has 12 y-dna markers and is SNP tested only as far as CTS2501, which is just below Z39589, on the DF41 level. My second cousin once removed Mark came in on his own as a surprise exact 12-marker match who then upgraded to 37 markers and eventually did an a la carte SNP test for FGC36982, which is one step above my current terminal SNP (Mark hasn't tested for FGC36981 yet - it's a fairly new discovery). I recruited another second cousin once removed, Preston, who was only willing to go as far as 37 markers and is an exact match there. Preston has given me permission to upgrade his sample as I see fit, however. I recruited my second cousin Paul (his grandfather and mine were brothers and are buried alongside their father, my great grandfather), but that took years, because at first he thought dna testing was like searching for a needle in a haystack. Once he saw the information I had turned up, however, he went whole hog and did the Big Y-500 and Family Finder.

Those were all known family members.

My closest same-surname match aside from known family I recruited from Ancestry not knowing whether he would match me at all. He was wary at first, but once the initial 111 markers came in, he really became enthusiastic and did the Big Y-500. He is now my partner in crime when it comes to sponsoring tests and paper trail research. I believe he is my fifth cousin, but that awaits confirmation.

I recruited another 111-marker match from Ancestry because the paper trail showed he is a descendant of Benjamin Stevens, who was born 1737 in Ellicott City, Maryland, but who died in 1811 in Fayette County, PA. Benjamin isn't supposed to be my own direct y-dna ancestor but is probably the brother or a cousin of my likely y-dna ancestor. When I recruited this gentleman I likewise had no real guarantee that he would match me, but then another descendant of the same Benjamin popped up on his own, without being recruited by me, and likewise turned out to be a 111-marker match. That second descendant of Benjamin has since done the Big Y-500 and is derived for FGC36974, which is the SNP that characterizes all the Stephens/Stevens men thus far but is a couple steps back upstream from my current terminal SNP.

So, I only recruited two Stevenses who weren't known family members, and one of the known family members, Mark, popped up on his own as an exact 12-marker match who later upgraded (as I mentioned).

Of the rest with my surname, nine arrived as matches completely on their own, out of the blue, and were men who were unknown to me before showing up as y-dna matches. I have since gotten to know them and have encouraged testing upgrades. Of those, six have done the Big Y-500.

I did not include my old exact 12-marker match buddy who has yet to respond to my email.

When it comes to the members of my cluster who do not share my surname, the only recruiting I recall doing with any of them was to suggest upgrades. I did pay to bring one of my Beddoes matches up from an exact 12-marker match to a 65/67 match. After that, I lost him. He may have passed away, since he was already quite elderly when he first showed up as an exact 12-marker match. I have a second Beddoes match who likewise arrived on his own but as a 36/37 match, but I lost touch with him, as well. The real obstacle with anyone with that surname is the guy who runs the Beddows/Beddoes project. He has an absolutely stupid, block-headed mania for privacy with which he infects all those with that surname who come into contact with him. It's aggravating, and he isn't even a match for my Beddoes and me.

BTW, both my Beddoes matches are UK citizens born and raised in far western England right on the Welsh border, and that is a Welsh surname.

My Samuel 111-marker match also came in initially as an exact 12-marker match. He's a retired college professor. Once I contacted him he became enthusiastic and likewise went all out for the Big Y-500. One of the nice things about that match is that Samuel can solidly trace his ancestor to the village of Llanafan Fawr, Radnorshire, Wales.

I could continue on, but over the years I have pushed and prodded and encouraged my members to upgrade. I have also contacted probably hundreds of people via the old YSearch and on Ancestry to test who never came through.

rms2
12-24-2018, 05:01 PM
Of the matches mentioned above, four have the Stephens version of the spelling of my surname, which is Stevens. Stephens, I believe, was the original spelling. Only two of the ph fellows have done the Big Y-500. Both are derived for FGC36974, which all of us Stevens/Stephens who have tested are derived for, but which the other members of our cluster are ancestral for. My own terminal SNP is two steps downstream: FGC36974>FGC36982>FGC36981. FGC36982 appears to characterize the specific branch I'm on, and FGC36981 may have first appeared with my own y-chromosome great grandfather, but that awaits testing of either or both of my two second cousins once removed, neither of whom is descended from my great grandfather. The mrca we share is my second great grandfather (their great grandfather - hence the "once removed" part).

Like I said, I think my immigrant ancestor was pretty prolific. There's a whole bunch of our relatives with the ph spelling over in Fort Valley at the northern end of the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, mostly farmers and businessmen. Thus far no one has been able to talk any of them into any kind of dna testing, however.

rms2
12-24-2018, 05:06 PM
I wonder the same after testing my late mother's Jones line (my grandfather's) when I found her first cousin by matching him on Gedmatch and MyHeritage. (I posted on it earlier.) The YSEQ test I got for him showed they are L371 > BY11922 - so very Welsh - but I don't know how to proceed or whether there's anything more to be gained.

Has he tested with FTDNA so that you can see his STR matches? How about Family Finder and/or Ancestry? Those places provide leads that can be followed up.

It doesn't look like there is an L371 Project, which is surprising.

JonikW
12-24-2018, 06:47 PM
Has he tested with FTDNA so that you can see his STR matches? How about Family Finder and/or Ancestry? Those places provide leads that can be followed up.

It doesn't look like there is an L371 Project, which is surprising.

He's only tested MyHeritage and YSEQ and won't test any further now. He's in his late eighties. I wrote to the guy heading one of the YSEQ projects, or whatever they call them there, and had no reply. I also wrote to an FTDNA project with some L371 testers but also no response. Guess that's it then.

rms2
12-24-2018, 08:23 PM
He's only tested MyHeritage and YSEQ and won't test any further now. He's in his late eighties. I wrote to the guy heading one of the YSEQ projects, or whatever they call them there, and had no reply. I also wrote to an FTDNA project with some L371 testers but also no response. Guess that's it then.

You ought to see if you can't get one more test out of your relative and go with FTDNA.

Saetro
12-27-2018, 06:56 PM
Of the matches mentioned above, four have the Stephens version of the spelling of my surname, which is Stevens. Stephens, I believe, was the original spelling.

I have Stephens down in Cornwall.
Many of them vary the spelling through different documents during their own lifetime.
For them, Stevens is an occasional variant and I can draw nothing much from its use.

Other names sometimes favoured one particular spelling at a certain time and in a certain area so can be used to distinguish between different lines.
Not my Stephens. And of course they delight in using the same first names repeatedly.
Even those who take their name from St Stephen's in Brannell, call themselves Branwell and Bramwell in an inconsistent way. There are fewer of them but the same sorts of puzzles of identity remain.

rms2
12-27-2018, 08:06 PM
From what I have seen, the v and ph spelling variants were used interchangeably, depending on who was doing the spelling. I’ve seen both spellings used in the same document.

msmarjoribanks
12-27-2018, 08:22 PM
I have Stephens down in Cornwall.
Many of them vary the spelling through different documents during their own lifetime.
For them, Stevens is an occasional variant and I can draw nothing much from its use.

My Hawes family intermarried with some Stephens in Ohio and then Nebraska, and similarly they varied it throughout their lifetimes (this was mid 1800s). Ultimately two brothers ended up with different spellings. (Same with the Hawes/Haws.)

rms2
12-28-2018, 01:33 AM
Even though the ph and v variants of Stephens/Stevens are often used interchangeably, there does seem to be a difference in their frequency and distribution in Britain.

27966 27968

Since my matches who can trace their ancestry across the Pond are all Welsh, and my haplotype cluster is predominantly Welsh, the Stephens distribution appears to be the more accurate of the two for my line.

rms2
12-29-2018, 03:25 PM
My mother's maiden surname isn't very common. It appears to be a Devonshire name, although my immigrant ancestor on that side was born in Malmesbury, Wiltshire.

28002

There does seem to be a little orange spot in Wiltshire, though.

Phoebe Watts
12-30-2018, 10:09 AM
Even though the ph and v variants of Stephens/Stevens are often used interchangeably, there does seem to be a difference in their frequency and distribution in Britain.

27966 27968

Since my matches who can trace their ancestry across the Pond are all Welsh, and my haplotype cluster is predominantly Welsh, the Stephens distribution appears to be the more accurate of the two for my line.

That’s right. The Stevens form is very uncommon in Wales. It is at least partly because the Welsh pronounciation is “ph” rather than”v”. The modern spelling is Steffan.

The glossary of surnames on my bookshelf quotes Guppy in 1890 saying ‘Stephens is particularly characteristic of Cornwall and of the counties on or near the Welsh border and also South Wales itself’.

I haven’t found either form in my family but Stephens is more a name of the old englishry of the marches and the south coast, rather than my more western and rural areas.

It is interesting that many of the Stephens who emigrated became Stevens - quite like my Davies relatives whose name was standardised to Davis in north America.

rms2
12-30-2018, 03:39 PM
. . .

I haven’t found either form in my family but Stephens is more a name of the old englishry of the marches and the south coast, rather than my more western and rural areas.
. . .

That may be partly correct, but the name Stephens (and the variant Stevens) is a Welsh surname derived from the Welsh ap Stephen for "son of Stephen". I've seen it in that form in old records, sometimes spelled ap Stevyn. In that it is similar to other Welsh patronymics, like Roberts, Edwards, Williams, Owens, etc.

Besides, my matches who can trace their y-chromosome progenitors across the Pond are Welsh, not English. Those whose names are not Stephens/Stevens have the surnames Beddoes, Samuel, Jones, and Price, among others.

Regarding the English Stephens/Stevens: When I was in Wales three years ago, I recruited a man with the last name Stephens for y-dna testing whom I met at the July 4th festival in Llandrindod Wells. I was hoping that shot in the dark would pan out, and I would get a match. Sadly, he turned out to be I-M253. His matches were English, German, and Scandinavian! He was born and raised in Wales and was a Welshman, but evidently his y-chromosome line was Anglo-Saxon.

JonikW
12-30-2018, 03:52 PM
That may be partly correct, but the name Stephens (and the variant Stevens) is a Welsh surname derived from the Welsh ap Stephen for "son of Stephen". I've seen it in that form in old records, sometimes spelled ap Stevyn. In that it is similar to other Welsh patronymics, like Roberts, Edwards, Williams, Owens, etc.

Besides, my matches who can trace their y-chromosome progenitors across the Pond are Welsh, not English. Those whose names are not Stephens/Stevens have the surnames Beddoes, Samuel, Jones, and Price, among others.

Regarding the English Stephens/Stevens: When I was in Wales three years ago, I recruited a man with the last name Stephens for y-dna testing whom I met at the July 4th festival in Llandrindod Wells. I was hoping that shot in the dark would pan out, and I would get a match. Sadly, he turned out to be I-M253. His matches were English, German, and Scandinavian! He was born and raised in Wales and was a Welshman, but evidently his y-chromosome line was Anglo-Saxon.

What was your favourite place you visited on your Welsh travels?

rms2
12-30-2018, 04:04 PM
What was your favourite place you visited on your Welsh travels?

Honestly, I enjoyed the pubs more than anything else. The beer in Wales is so superior to anything we get here it was like heaven to me. I loved the pub grub, especially the meat pies.

Probably my favorite place was the pub at the Neuadd Arms Hotel in Llanwrtyd Wells. I also really liked the Lamb and Flag in Rhayader and the Goat Major in Cardiff right across the street from Cardiff Castle. The pub in the Lion Hotel in Llanbister was also great, with the added attraction of the great conversations I had with the owner, Ray Thomas, who is a very knowledgeable local historian, as well as an innkeeper.

The feeding of the red kites in Rhayader was a lot of fun, as was just driving all around Wales.

JonikW
12-30-2018, 05:23 PM
Honestly, I enjoyed the pubs more than anything else. The beer in Wales is so superior to anything we get here it was like heaven to me. I loved the pub grub, especially the meat pies.

Probably my favorite place was the pub at the Neuadd Arms Hotel in Llanwrtyd Wells. I also really liked the Lamb and Flag in Rhayader and the Goat Major in Cardiff right across the street from Cardiff Castle. The pub in the Lion Hotel in Llanbister was also great, with the added attraction of the great conversations I had with the owner, Ray Thomas, who is a very knowledgeable local historian, as well as an innkeeper.

The feeding of the red kites in Rhayader was a lot of fun, as was just driving all around Wales.

I'm with you on the joys of a pie and a pint, and good pubs are an essential part of any trip for me. There are some great ales in Wales now; even better than in the old days. Thanks for the pubs list too.

Phoebe Watts
12-30-2018, 07:05 PM
That may be partly correct, but the name Stephens (and the variant Stevens) is a Welsh surname derived from the Welsh ap Stephen for "son of Stephen". I've seen it in that form in old records, sometimes spelled ap Stevyn. In that it is similar to other Welsh patronymics, like Roberts, Edwards, Williams, Owens, etc.

Besides, my matches who can trace their y-chromosome progenitors across the Pond are Welsh, not English. Those whose names are not Stephens/Stevens have the surnames Beddoes, Samuel, Jones, and Price, among others.

Regarding the English Stephens/Stevens: When I was in Wales three years ago, I recruited a man with the last name Stephens for y-dna testing whom I met at the July 4th festival in Llandrindod Wells. I was hoping that shot in the dark would pan out, and I would get a match. Sadly, he turned out to be I-M253. His matches were English, German, and Scandinavian! He was born and raised in Wales and was a Welshman, but evidently his y-chromosome line was Anglo-Saxon.


It is of course a Welsh patronymic based surname. One that’s found in small numbers across mid and south Wales but has a slightly larger presence in a few areas.

The areas where Stephens was strongest by the early 1800s were Radnorshire, South Pembrokeshire and Glamorgan, especially the area around Cardiff. All in the March and mostly in areas that became subject to English laws and exposed to English language and customs far earlier than most of Wales.

JonikW
12-30-2018, 08:00 PM
It is of course a Welsh patronymic based surname. One that’s found in small numbers across mid and south Wales but has a slightly larger presence in a few areas.

The areas where Stephens was strongest by the early 1800s were Radnorshire, South Pembrokeshire and Glamorgan, especially the area around Cardiff. All in the March and mostly in areas that became subject to English laws and exposed to English language and customs far earlier than most of Wales.

Very interesting, thanks. I'm sure the ancestry of many on the Stevens lines is as Welsh as can be though. Just look at my own Welsh marches Jones line, which is L371. rms2 likewise knows that his paraclade or subclade of the "Celtic" L21 marker looks very Welsh.

rms2
12-30-2018, 08:37 PM
It is of course a Welsh patronymic based surname. One that’s found in small numbers across mid and south Wales but has a slightly larger presence in a few areas.

The areas where Stephens was strongest by the early 1800s were Radnorshire, South Pembrokeshire and Glamorgan, especially the area around Cardiff. All in the March and mostly in areas that became subject to English laws and exposed to English language and customs far earlier than most of Wales.

Yeah, but not English. If we were, our y-chromosome test results would be far different.

rms2
12-30-2018, 08:41 PM
Very interesting, thanks. I'm sure the ancestry of many on the Stevens lines is as Welsh as can be though. Just look at my own Welsh marches Jones line, which is L371. rms2 likewise knows that his paraclade or subclade of the "Celtic" L21 marker looks very Welsh.

Exactly. I may have posted this in this thread already, but here are distribution maps for the surnames in my haplotype cluster, with the characteristic SNP BY166.

28027

I left room for new arrivals.

I wish I could explain the reasons why the surnames that appear to be distributed outside Wales and far western England aren't accurate for our lot, but the current legalistic mania for privacy prevents me from doing so. You'll have to take my word for it: ours is a Welsh cluster.

Phoebe Watts
12-30-2018, 08:43 PM
Very interesting, thanks. I'm sure the ancestry of many on the Stevens lines is as Welsh as can be though. Just look at my own Welsh marches Jones line, which is L371. rms2 likewise knows that his paraclade or subclade of the "Celtic" L21 marker looks very Welsh.

You are right. The majority of the population was still mostly Welsh in ancestry, apart from the deliberate settlements and some of the towns.

These were Welsh communities or families who gradually adopted English customs and language.

Most relevant for genealogy perhaps is the adoption of surnames (or the erosion of the patronymic). The Surnames of Wales (John and Sheila Rowlands) has a table showing the date of erosion of the patronymic to 10% in each hundred. In “my” hundreds in north Wales the date is in the 1840s and 1850s. In “my” south Wales hundreds it is 50 or so years earlier. In the hundreds where Stephens was most common that date is about 1650-1710; even earlier in Pembrokeshire.

rms2
12-30-2018, 08:54 PM
Just for fun, here are distribution maps for surnames in my pedigree reaching back a few generations from me. Some of the names I could not find maps for, like Sparkman and Heffington. Danley is one of the surnames in my pedigree I couldn't find a map for. I suspect the name was Donnelly - it appears as that in some records - but my great grandmother in that line spelled her surname as Danley, and her brother was a medical doctor, Dr. Noah Danley.

28028

A lot of British and Irish.

We don't get to non-British or Irish names until the third great grandmother level on my dad's side, with the Breton French surname Micou, and the fourth great grandmother level also on my dad's side, with the Dutch surname Snedeker.

JonikW
12-30-2018, 09:17 PM
You are right. The majority of the population was still mostly Welsh in ancestry, apart from the deliberate settlements and some of the towns.

These were Welsh communities or families who gradually adopted English customs and language.

Most relevant for genealogy perhaps is the adoption of surnames (or the erosion of the patronymic). The Surnames of Wales (John and Sheila Rowlands) has a table showing the date of erosion of the patronymic to 10% in each hundred. In “my” hundreds in north Wales the date is in the 1840s and 1850s. In “my” south Wales hundreds it is 50 or so years earlier. In the hundreds where Stephens was most common that date is about 1650-1710; even earlier in Pembrokeshire.

Thanks Phoebe. The data you have access to is impressive and much appreciated. Given the date, does anyone know how important New Year was in old Wales? I'm wondering whether it was on a level with Scottish Hogmanay. My wife is Georgian/Russian and has already been preparing dishes for tomorrow night. It's the biggest feast of the year in that culture still. But what did our Welsh ancestors do?

rms2
12-30-2018, 09:19 PM
Oh, the Swiss flag among my flags pops up at the third great grandmother level on my mother's side, with the surname Stutts, which was the anglicized version of the surname Stutz, the immigrant ancestor being Ulrich Stutz, born 17 May 1688 in Uster, Zurich, Switzerland. The Stutts/Stutz circle is one of the biggest I belong to at Ancestry, with 81 members.

rms2
12-30-2018, 09:23 PM
Thanks Phoebe. The data you have access to is impressive and much appreciated. Given the date, does anyone know how important New Year was in old Wales? I'm wondering whether it was on a level with Scottish Hogmanay. My wife is Georgian/Russian and has already been preparing dishes for tomorrow night. It's the biggest feast of the year in that culture still. But what did our Welsh ancestors do?

Novi God is a big deal for my wife, as well, since she is Russian. Before I met her I used to go to bed at about 21:00 on New Year's Eve. It never was a big deal to me.

I think tomorrow night she is going to a Russian girlfriend's house for Novi God, and I will be spared. She knows I don't really like the people involved, so I am not expected to attend.

JonikW
12-30-2018, 09:30 PM
Novi God is a big deal for my wife, as well, since she is Russian. Before I met her I used to go to bed at about 21:00 on New Year's Eve. It never was a big deal to me.

I think tomorrow night she is going to a Russian girlfriend's house for Novi God, and I will be spared. She knows I don't really like the people involved, so I am not expected to attend.

It's a holiday I've learned to embrace and relish after not being bothered before we met 20 years ago (just used to go down the pub with my mates). Now it's one of the highlights of my year. I even enjoy watching the Tsar at midnight Moscow time as well as all the old Soviet classics on TV. As for old Wales, I'm sadly ignorant.

rms2
12-30-2018, 09:32 PM
Oh, the Swiss flag among my flags pops up at the third great grandmother level on my mother's side, with the surname Stutts, which was the anglicized version of the surname Stutz, the immigrant ancestor being Ulrich Stutz, born 17 May 1688 in Uster, Zurich, Switzerland. The Stutts/Stutz circle is one of the biggest I belong to at Ancestry, with 81 members.

I realize this has nothing to do with the Welsh, but a male Stutts autosomal match of mine from Ancestry had an I-M170 result from FTDNA, making I-M170 the Stutz y-chromosome haplogroup. He and I exchanged emails some months ago, and he was supposed to do the Big Y-500 and let me know how things came out. I have not heard from him. He didn't answer when I emailed him about it recently. Hope he's okay.

JonikW
12-30-2018, 09:41 PM
I realize this has nothing to do with the Welsh, but a male Stutts autosomal match of mine from Ancestry had an I-M170 result from FTDNA, making I-M170 the Stutz y-chromosome haplogroup. He and I exchanged emails some months ago, and he was supposed to do the Big Y-500 and let me know how things came out. I have not heard from him. He didn't answer when I emailed him about it recently. Hope he's okay.

Interesting because I think as an I1 man that means we share paternal ancestry. Also on a non-Welsh digression, I see you have Armstrong ancestry. Do you know where they were from? I only know my 19th century Armstrong ancestor was born in Scotland but I'm interested in the Reivers and would like to know more.

rms2
12-30-2018, 09:47 PM
Interesting because I think as an I1 man that means we share paternal ancestry. Also on a non-Welsh digression, I see you have Armstrong ancestry. Do you know where they were from? I only know my 19th century Armstrong ancestor was born in Scotland but I'm interested in the Reivers and would like to know more.

I can only get back as far as my fourth great grandfather with the Armstrongs: Matthew Armstrong (1780-1832). He is supposed to have been born in Ireland. I am guessing in Northern Ireland, but I don't know exactly where. I don't know what the y-chromosome haplogroup of my Armstrong line is.

I have an I-M253 line in the Washburns, as well, which I know from communicating with some cousins in that line (a second great grandmother on my dad's side was a Washburn).

Phoebe Watts
12-30-2018, 10:38 PM
Thanks Phoebe. The data you have access to is impressive and much appreciated. Given the date, does anyone know how important New Year was in old Wales? I'm wondering whether it was on a level with Scottish Hogmanay. My wife is Georgian/Russian and has already been preparing dishes for tomorrow night. It's the biggest feast of the year in that culture still. But what did our Welsh ancestors do?

Far more important than Christmas. But as most of the customs were pre-Christian, they haven’t really survived. I think the Methodist revivals are blamed.

But anyway, it seems to have involved gathering together to avoid the spirits of the dead, bonfires, gaining access to your neighbours’ homes, singing, eating, getting very drunk.

Some bits of tradition survive - and there are revivals in some areas. Some description here: https://www.visitwales.com/holidays-breaks/winter/christmas/welsh-christmas-new-year-traditions

Some communities celebrate the old Calan still - 13 January according to the Julian calendar?

Trelvern
12-30-2018, 10:57 PM
Far more important than Christmas. But as most of the customs were pre-Christian, they haven’t really survived. I think the Methodist revivals are blamed.

But anyway, it seems to have involved gathering together to avoid the spirits of the dead, bonfires, gaining access to your neighbours’ homes, singing, eating, getting very drunk.

Some bits of tradition survive - and there are revivals in some areas. Some description here: https://www.visitwales.com/holidays-breaks/winter/christmas/welsh-christmas-new-year-traditions

Some communities celebrate the old Calan still - 13 January according to the Julian calendar?

Interesting
I did not know this tradition
I just saw on you tube a Welsh band "Calan" singing in English and Welsh :"Chwedl y Ddwy Ddraig"
Really very good.

Phoebe Watts
12-30-2018, 11:25 PM
Besides, my matches who can trace their y-chromosome progenitors across the Pond are Welsh, not English. Those whose names are not Stephens/Stevens have the surnames Beddoes, Samuel, Jones, and Price, among

This list of names screams Radnorshire doesn’t it?

rms2
12-30-2018, 11:26 PM
This list of names screams Radnorshire doesn’t it?

True, but they're not English.

JonikW
12-30-2018, 11:32 PM
Funnily enough they also celebrate "old new year" in Russia from before the calendar change. It's the final celebration of the season.
I remember watching a BBC session by Calan that was well worth listening to. There was one song in particular that I loved. I'd need to look it up but remember the tune.

JonikW
12-31-2018, 12:04 AM
Funnily enough they also celebrate "old new year" in Russia from before the calendar change. It's the final celebration of the season.
I remember watching a BBC session by Calan that was well worth listening to. There was one song in particular that I loved. I'd need to look it up but remember the tune.

This is the song if you can access it. It's called Y Gwydr Glas. Beautiful.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/events/ej5g9r/play/a4gp5v/p01qf7xv

FionnSneachta
12-31-2018, 12:39 AM
Just for fun, here are distribution maps for surnames in my pedigree reaching back a few generations from me.

A bit off-topic but thanks for posting the surname distribution maps. You got me interested in finding distribution patterns for the surnames in my family. I found one for Ireland and a lot of the surnames do have the highest number centered in the west.

rms2
12-31-2018, 01:46 PM
A bit off-topic but thanks for posting the surname distribution maps. You got me interested in finding distribution patterns for the surnames in my family. I found one for Ireland and a lot of the surnames do have the highest number centered in the west.

Not much off topic, since several of the surnames in my pedigree are Welsh, and the thread is called Miscellaneous Welsh Odds and Ends (heavy on the miscellaneous odds and ends).

Here (http://named.publicprofiler.org/) is the site I used for the surname maps, which is good only for the UK.

FionnSneachta
12-31-2018, 04:31 PM
Not much off topic, since several of the surnames in my pedigree are Welsh, and the thread is called Miscellaneous Welsh Odds and Ends (heavy on the miscellaneous odds and ends).

Here (http://named.publicprofiler.org/) is the site I used for the surname maps, which is good only for the UK.

Thanks, this (https://www.swilson.info/sdist.php) was the one I found for Ireland. It's not a heat map but it gives the numbers for each county around the 1850s. I meant that I was being off-topic by mentioning Ireland rather than you with your Welsh surnames.

rms2
12-31-2018, 05:48 PM
Thanks, this (https://www.swilson.info/sdist.php) was the one I found for Ireland. It's not a heat map but it gives the numbers for each county around the 1850s. I meant that I was being off-topic by mentioning Ireland rather than you with your Welsh surnames.

No problem. It's kind of a catch-all thread anyway.

Thanks for the map link. I used it on the McElroy surname in my pedigree (my dad's maternal grandmother) and on the surname Donnelly, which usually appears as Danley in my pedigree but also as Dannelly and Donnelly (my mom's paternal grandmother).

28039 28040

rms2
12-31-2018, 06:28 PM
No problem. It's kind of a catch-all thread anyway.

Thanks for the map link. I used it on the McElroy surname in my pedigree (my dad's maternal grandmother) and on the surname Donnelly, which usually appears as Danley in my pedigree but also as Dannelly and Donnelly (my mom's paternal grandmother).

28039 28040

There is actually also an English surname Danley, but I think it's uncommon. Anyway, I really am not sure which version is the right one.

Phoebe Watts
12-31-2018, 06:55 PM
Not much off topic, since several of the surnames in my pedigree are Welsh, and the thread is called Miscellaneous Welsh Odds and Ends (heavy on the miscellaneous odds and ends).

Here (http://named.publicprofiler.org/) is the site I used for the surname maps, which is good only for the UK.


From the same site but at a slight tangent:

28041

This is from the research of a relative whose Scottish 3G grandparents came to Wales in the 1860s. They had eight children before retiring back to Scotland. The children made their homes in Wales. The blob in north Wales is centred very close to the rural villages where the couple lived in Denbighshire.

msmarjoribanks
12-31-2018, 07:08 PM
Irish map link was consistent with the John Grenham site for me. My mysterious Craney ancestor's name is uncommon, but appears in Armagh, Antrim, and Louth.

Ran it in the UK one and it has a hotspot in Newcastle, where my Ashburn surname also has one.

I assumed Reeve would not have any particular geographical presence, but its hotspot is East Anglia.

Back to Welsh names, I have a Davis family who I suspect (due to geography) could be originally Welsh Davies, although they could be English too. Names changing in the new world can make it tough to identify geographical patterns -- our Bristol was originally Bristow, and that seems much more common in England.

Phoebe Watts
12-31-2018, 07:43 PM
28042

This is for my research and shows how distributions can change over time.

In 1841 This name was very specific to a few parishes on the Pembrokeshire/ Carmarthenshire border. I think it originated with one family a few generations earlier. By 1881 they were still in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire with one or two families, including my 4x great uncle, in Swansea. Some families had emigrated and some had changed the spelling of their name.

In this recent distribution map, the hot spot is four hours away from the original home, and there is little evidence left in Pembrokeshire or Carmarthenshire.

FionnSneachta
12-31-2018, 08:19 PM
28042

This is for my research and shows how distributions can change over time.

In 1841 This name was very specific to a few parishes on the Pembrokeshire/ Carmarthenshire border. I think it originated with one family a few generations earlier. By 1881 they were still in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire with one or two families, including my 4x great uncle, in Swansea. Some families had emigrated and some had changed the spelling of their name.

In this recent distribution map, the hot spot is four hours away from the original home, and there is little evidence left in Pembrokeshire or Carmarthenshire.

It's true that the distributions can change. My 2x great grandmother was Crawley. The distribution map shows the surname to be most common in Cork. According to this website (http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Crawley) and another (http://irelandroots.com/crowley.htm), there was a migration from Roscommon to Cork.

28043

Nibelung
12-31-2018, 08:44 PM
It's true that the distributions can change. My 2x great grandmother was Crawley. The distribution map shows the surname to be most common in Cork. According to this website (http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Crawley) and another (http://irelandroots.com/crowley.htm), there was a migration from Roscommon to Cork.

28043

The Crowleys (Irish) were a military family in the MacCarthy Reagh's service and neighbours of ours. Legend certainly has it they're descended from a branch of the MacDermots of Moylurg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Magh_Luirg) but evidently their modern genetics leave at least their Connacht origins uncertain, wherever else besides Munster they may actually hail from. I have a Crowley myself some generations back.

FionnSneachta
12-31-2018, 09:53 PM
The Crowleys (Irish) were a military family in the MacCarthy Reagh's service and neighbours of ours. Legend certainly has it they're descended from a branch of the MacDermots of Moylurg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Magh_Luirg) but evidently their modern genetics leave at least their Connacht origins uncertain, wherever else besides Munster they may actually hail from. I have a Crowley myself some generations back.

Crawley is just a variant of Crowley since they're all anglicisations with no necessarily correct form. My family used both Crolly and Crawley at different times. There's certainly no way to really prove the story of a migration from Roscommon to Cork but it's one consistently told. Both the Crawleys and McDermotts also both bear a boar on the coat of arms and this could also indicate a connection. The coat of arms for the O'Conors features a tree. The four provincial chiefs ranking as 'royal lords' under the O'Conor Don were Mulrennan, Finaghty, Flanagan and Geraghty and all four of these families have a tree on their coat of arms as well. It's nothing at all concrete but it is interesting.

Nibelung
01-01-2019, 12:06 AM
Crawley is just a variant of Crowley since they're all anglicisations with no necessarily correct form. My family used both Crolly and Crawley at different times. There's certainly no way to really prove the story of a migration from Roscommon to Cork but it's one consistently told. Both the Crawleys and McDermotts also both bear a boar on the coat of arms and this could also indicate a connection. The coat of arms for the O'Conors features a tree. The four provincial chiefs ranking as 'royal lords' under the O'Conor Don were Mulrennan, Finaghty, Flanagan and Geraghty and all four of these families have a tree on their coat of arms as well. It's nothing at all concrete but it is interesting.

Well, their special status was at least based on their being from outside the system and they were the only family I know of actually in the MacCarthy Reagh's service, in case you've been misled into believing ours was. Be a little more respectful next time unless you're asking for people more interested than I am to pull rank. Happy New Year!

Trelvern
01-01-2019, 08:36 AM
28047

Phoebe Watts
01-01-2019, 10:01 AM
Blwyddyn Newydd Dda!

This post reminds me that Breton friends would always send New Year cards.

msmarjoribanks
01-02-2019, 03:04 AM
I have a new Stevens (that spelling) match and the family goes to Sussex, so that's consistent with rms's surname map. I doubt we match on the Stevens line, however.

rms2
01-02-2019, 02:55 PM
I have a new Stevens (that spelling) match and the family goes to Sussex, so that's consistent with rms's surname map. I doubt we match on the Stevens line, however.

I am one of the admins of the Stephens/Stevens Project for FTDNA. It's a big project with a lot of y-chromosome diversity, although R1b-L51 is by far the biggest haplogroup in it. But we have plenty of R1b-U106, as well as R1b-P312.

That's why I get more out of my own little R1b-41-1123 Project because it's restricted to my own haplotype cluster. Stephens/Stevens is just too common a surname. St. Stephen was a very popular saint in Europe. A lot of boys were named for him and launched a lot of patronymic lines.

msmarjoribanks
01-02-2019, 05:41 PM
Could be worse, could be Jones! ;-) That's why I'd like to do some YDNA of my less common surnames (although none of them are likely to be Welsh, given the patronymic pattern).

In case it was unclear, I meant I doubt my match with the newly-discovered match is on the Stevens line, as I know where in my family that match should be located.

Re: Jones/patronymics, I've mentioned this before, but the vast majority of people in the US who share the surname of my Swedish line seem to be related to us, and it's not very common at all (Westerlin). In researching it, I learned that it was changed at the time they came over. Original name? Johansson.

However, in that case I didn't have to worry about sorting out all the other Johanssons, since his dad was Petersson, and his dad was Magnusson, a different confusion.

My mother's maiden name and both my grandmothers' are much less common, so it's caused me to be somewhat more focused on those families, and is why my Davis family has been neglected -- I have to deal with enough Joneses that when I run into a Davis or Smith or Miller, I tend to put them on the back-burner.

Phoebe Watts
01-02-2019, 05:43 PM
On surname distribution in Wales, this article might be useful. It’s from the journal of the Society for Name Studies in Britain and Ireland from 2006.

http://www.snsbi.org.uk/Nomina_articles/Nomina_29_Rowlands.pdf

Fig. 3 shows (for each hundred) the percentage of population covered by the ten most common Welsh surnames. The average is 56% and the range is 27% to 91%. The authors say “Generally speaking, the percentages were lowest in those areas which have, historically, been subject to greatest English influence (south Pembrokeshire, Gower, parts of the Vale of Glamorgan, as well as many areas along the English border such as the detached part of Flintshire). Conversely, they were highest in the areas considered to be the heartlands of Wales (Cardiganshire and north Carmarthenshire) along with large parts of north Wales (including Anglesey).“

Most of my family lines are in the 70%+ areas, with almost all in the 50%+ areas.

Fig. 5 shows how one Welsh name is distributed on both sides of the border.

And for those plagued by their Jones ancestors, Fig. 4 might be interesting.

Webb
01-02-2019, 06:10 PM
28075

Screenshot of my Great Grandmother's surname. The last name is Tribby, which is a spelling that is particular to the United States. The search is under the correct spelling, Treby.

Trelvern
01-06-2019, 06:55 PM
On surname distribution in Wales, this article might be useful. It’s from the journal of the Society for Name Studies in Britain and Ireland from 2006.

http://www.snsbi.org.uk/Nomina_articles/Nomina_29_Rowlands.pdf

Fig. 3 shows (for each hundred) the percentage of population covered by the ten most common Welsh surnames. The average is 56% and the range is 27% to 91%. The authors say “Generally speaking, the percentages were lowest in those areas which have, historically, been subject to greatest English influence (south Pembrokeshire, Gower, parts of the Vale of Glamorgan, as well as many areas along the English border such as the detached part of Flintshire). Conversely, they were highest in the areas considered to be the heartlands of Wales (Cardiganshire and north Carmarthenshire) along with large parts of north Wales (including Anglesey).“

Most of my family lines are in the 70%+ areas, with almost all in the 50%+ areas.

Fig. 5 shows how one Welsh name is distributed on both sides of the border.

And for those plagued by their Jones ancestors, Fig. 4 might be interesting.


I hear Welsh surnames when the 6 nations tournament arrives.
no less than 5 Davies and 2 Jones in your team.
I also heard Iestyn Davies, the famous counter-tenor in a small chapel near my home.

In the Breton region, we have typically Breton names totally different from the French ones (the most common name in French is Martin)
but sometimes, the administration has corrected the Breton names to make them ring French (placenames also)

The name Milin for example (melan in Welsh) becoming Le Milinaire

Is it the same in Wales?
no name like Llewelyn ap Dafydd ab Ieuan ap Gruffudd ap Meredydd anymore?

Táltos
01-06-2019, 07:22 PM
On surname distribution in Wales, this article might be useful. It’s from the journal of the Society for Name Studies in Britain and Ireland from 2006.

http://www.snsbi.org.uk/Nomina_articles/Nomina_29_Rowlands.pdf

Fig. 3 shows (for each hundred) the percentage of population covered by the ten most common Welsh surnames. The average is 56% and the range is 27% to 91%. The authors say “Generally speaking, the percentages were lowest in those areas which have, historically, been subject to greatest English influence (south Pembrokeshire, Gower, parts of the Vale of Glamorgan, as well as many areas along the English border such as the detached part of Flintshire). Conversely, they were highest in the areas considered to be the heartlands of Wales (Cardiganshire and north Carmarthenshire) along with large parts of north Wales (including Anglesey).“

Most of my family lines are in the 70%+ areas, with almost all in the 50%+ areas.

Fig. 5 shows how one Welsh name is distributed on both sides of the border.

And for those plagued by their Jones ancestors, Fig. 4 might be interesting.

This is great! I wish I noticed this post sooner, before I went googling all those surnames for the other thread. :)

Phoebe Watts
01-06-2019, 08:10 PM
I hear Welsh surnames when the 6 nations tournament arrives.
no less than 5 Davies and 2 Jones in your team.
I also heard Iestyn Davies, the famous counter-tenor in a small chapel near my home.

In the Breton region, we have typically Breton names totally different from the French ones (the most common name in French is Martin)
but sometimes, the administration has corrected the Breton names to make them ring French (placenames also)

The name Milin for example (melan in Welsh) becoming Le Milinaire

Is it the same in Wales?
no name like Llewelyn ap Dafydd ab Ieuan ap Gruffudd ap Meredydd anymore?

Yes and no... The government doesn’t prohibit names in the same way as can sometimes happen in France for Breton names. But I think the church used to do that a long time ago. And those those long names were important under Welsh laws so they died out a long time ago.

Occupation names and nicknames survived as surnames on both sides of the border and in some place that were occupied by the Normans. I think melin/ melinydd was a rare name. Saer (carpenter) still exists.

In most of Wales, most of the people shared the same common surnames so in a small town or village we know people by their farm or house name or an occupation name or another family name. As you say, rugby teams can sound very Welsh - especially local teams.

I suppose surnames don’t really mean that much here!

Phoebe Watts
01-06-2019, 08:17 PM
This is great! I wish I noticed this post sooner, before I went googling all those surnames for the other thread. :)


It is good isn’t it? It can be really useful. You really can place ancestors based on surnames, forenames or the pattern of forenames given to children.

All your list of Welsh names are quite common though... I suppose it is likely that your ancestors were originally from west Wales but probably not from south Pembrokeshire.

Táltos
01-06-2019, 08:24 PM
It is good isn’t it? It can be really useful. You really can place ancestors based on surnames, forenames or the pattern of forenames given to children.

All your list of Welsh names are quite common though... I suppose it is likely that your ancestors were originally from west Wales but probably not from south Pembrokeshire.

It is good! Yep all those names are very common. The common names are partially the reason why I ignored this part of my 23andme results. I figured something was wrong with them as again I have no oral history of having ancestry from the UK. Just some far back colonial lines that I figured must have come from there.

JonikW
01-06-2019, 08:26 PM
I must admit that reading it was a revelation to me. I had no idea it was possible to narrow down origins based on a couple of Welsh names. I was fascinated by the Jones map and would like to have seen something similar for Watkins on my father's Lewis side. They were Welsh speakers from Llanigon/Llanwenarth in Breconshire, which seems to be the hotspot for that name.

Phoebe Watts
01-06-2019, 08:50 PM
I must admit that reading it was a revelation to me. I had no idea it was possible to narrow down origins based on a couple of Welsh names. I was fascinated by the Jones map and would like to have seen something similar for Watkins on my father's Lewis side. They were Welsh speakers from Llanigon/Llanwenarth in Breconshire, which seems to be the hotspot for that name.

There is a map for Watkins in the book - still under copyright. Watkins is a double diminutive of Walter. My “Watts” is a similar construction. Both result from the Norman forename being adopted as Welsh patronymics before forming surnames. Both are common in the areas where Jones is uncommon. You’re spot on for Watkins in Breconshire. Watts is Pembrokeshire.

JonikW
01-06-2019, 11:35 PM
Just saw one of these Welsh ads on a Flemish mystery/detective show I'm watching on More4. Made an unexpected change from the usual Lexus ads the channel screens.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/lifestyle/showbiz/hollywood-star-luke-evans-stars-12674528.amp

Trelvern
01-19-2019, 09:37 AM
I saw yesterday an exhibition of photos taken by a Welsh in the thirties: Jack K Neale, from Cardiff, born in 1911, son of a trawler owner of this port who falls literally in love with the schooner and other sailboats of Brittany before WW2). He does a lot of photographs: most of them were taken from the old basin (now extinct, I guess) with loading scenes, crew photos and wrecks on the coast of Wales. These photographs are a wonderful testimony to the lives of the latest sailing ships.

photo:28489Dundee "Dixi" in the Cardiff Basin, he unloaded mining piles or his ballast and prepared to load coal. Almost all the tiny ports in my area were linked to this traffic.

Phoebe Watts
01-19-2019, 08:20 PM
I saw yesterday an exhibition of photos taken by a Welsh in the thirties: Jack K Neale, from Cardiff, born in 1911, son of a trawler owner of this port who falls literally in love with the schooner and other sailboats of Brittany before WW2). He does a lot of photographs: most of them were taken from the old basin (now extinct, I guess) with loading scenes, crew photos and wrecks on the coast of Wales. These photographs are a wonderful testimony to the lives of the latest sailing ships.



photo:28489Dundee "Dixi" in the Cardiff Basin, he unloaded mining piles or his ballast and prepared to load coal. Almost all the tiny ports in my area were linked to this traffic.


Yet another thing that we have in common.

I remember being taken to visit lighthouses in Brittany too - so important for maritime communities.

Which reminds me that it’s St Dwynwen’s day on Friday. A Welsh equivalent of St. Valentine. But easier to make a restaurant reservation.

The church dedicated to Dwynwen is on Llanddwyn island on the south-west coast of Anglesey near the southern entrance to the Menai Strait. There are old lighthouses there too, as well as old, now restored, pilots’ cottages.

msmarjoribanks
02-17-2019, 06:44 PM
Recessional hymn this morning was one I quite like -- Love Divine, All Loves Excelling, words by Charles Wesley. I happened to notice that in this version the music was by Rowland H. Pritchard and thought "nice Welsh name." Looked him up when I got home and discovered (thanks to wiki) that the full name is Rowland Huw Prichard (even better!) and he lived from 1811 to 1887, and was from Graienyn, near Bala, and lived most of his life in the area, although he served for a time as a loom tender's assistant in Holywell. Wiki says he is "remembered today as the composer of the hymn tune "Hyfrydol", to which the hymn "Hallelujah, Sing to Jesus", with words by William Chatterton Dix is generally sung." (That's the same tune.)

On looking up Love Divine, All Loves Excelling I learned something else I had not known:

"It first appeared in Wesley's Hymns for those that Seek, and those that Have Redemption (Bristol, 1747), apparently intended as a Christianization of the song "Fairest Isle" sung by Venus in Act 5 of John Dryden and Henry Purcell's semi-opera King Arthur (1691), on which Wesley's first stanza is modelled.

Wesley wrote:

Love Divine, all Loves excelling,
Joy of Heaven to Earth come down,
Fix in us thy humble Dwelling,
All thy faithful Mercies crown;

Dryden had written:

Fairest Isle, all Isles Excelling,
Seat of Pleasures, and of Loves;
Venus here, will chuse her Dwelling,
And forsake her Cyprian Groves.

In Dryden's song, the goddess of love chooses the Isle of Britain over her native Cyprus; in Wesley's hymn divine love itself is asked to choose the human heart as its residence over its native heaven."

Phoebe Watts
02-17-2019, 11:36 PM
Hymn tunes must be one of our most significant exports! They say that this one was used by almost all denominations in Wales and England, as well as others world wide.

Wicipedia, the Welsh version, is a bit different with “O! llefara, addfwyn Iesu” William Williams Pantycelyn as the hymn most often used (with the Wesley hymn most often in English).

jdean
03-16-2019, 06:32 PM
Grand Slam !!!!

Went to a B&Q superstore shortly after and I didn't have to queue even though only one till was open, think it was only me and the skeleton staff in the place : )

Fish and chips for tea : ))))

msmarjoribanks
05-06-2019, 12:47 AM
Bumping in part because it's been a long time!

I think JonikW saiid he was able to identify county on YFull, and I wanted to ask about that, since for my dad they've only allowed me to say England, and I think Shropshire (bordering on Wales) is important, given the last name is Jones and the YDNA is L21.

JonikW
05-06-2019, 07:56 AM
Bumping in part because it's been a long time!

I think JonikW saiid he was able to identify county on YFull, and I wanted to ask about that, since for my dad they've only allowed me to say England, and I think Shropshire (bordering on Wales) is important, given the last name is Jones and the YDNA is L21.

If you pick the English flag you don't get the option to display a county. You only get that with the union jack. It's a shame because many English users are not displaying their known origin as a result.

Edit: just looked at my account again and can no longer see counties/regions for any flags including Sweden. Either I'm doing something wrong now or they've removed a useful feature.

JonikW
05-06-2019, 09:19 AM
If you pick the English flag you don't get the option to display a county. You only get that with the union jack. It's a shame because many English users are not displaying their known origin as a result.

Edit: just looked at my account again and can no longer see counties/regions for any flags including Sweden. Either I'm doing something wrong now or they've removed a useful feature.

Got it now. I can't see this detail through my own account right now (perhaps there is a way but I'm missing it). However, it does show if I search for a SNP on YFull through Google and enter the site that way.
Here's me and my match, both showing our regions:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A21912/
And here's our wider Z140 tree:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z140/

Phoebe Watts
05-11-2019, 08:52 AM
There are some interesting odds and ends on the National Library of Wales blog - there is a Story of Wales category.

The latest is about Humphrey Llwyd, known as a cartographer, author, antiquary and Member of Parliament

https://blog.library.wales/humphrey_llwyd/

rms2
05-14-2019, 02:50 AM
There are some interesting odds and ends on the National Library of Wales blog - there is a Story of Wales category.

The latest is about Humphrey Llwyd, known as a cartographer, author, antiquary and Member of Parliament

https://blog.library.wales/humphrey_llwyd/

Lloyd (Llwyd) is one of the surnames in my y-dna haplotype cluster. I'm not saying Humphrey Llwyd would have been, but maybe.

Phoebe Watts
05-17-2019, 08:29 AM
Some of these descriptive surnames were adopted early by gentry families, so if you are related to them you might well find their family trees.

Quite a few Lloyds in the Welsh biographies here: https://biography.wales/browse/L

Phoebe Watts
05-27-2019, 11:47 AM
There are a few Welsh legends and myths about the loss of fertile land to the sea. They appear in early Welsh books and may refer to yr Hen Ogledd, to north Wales or as here to Cardigan bay:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48407795

The recent storms have taken away the sand that covered the “evidence” of Cantre’r Gwaelod.

Trelvern
05-28-2019, 04:55 PM
Have you any information about St Dogmael?

"Welsh monk of the house of Cunedda, the son of Ithel ab Ceredig ab Cunedda Wledig. He preached in Pembrokeshire, Wales, and then went to Brittany, in France. Several churches bear his name."

It is believed to have landed at Le Yaudet near Lannion in the early 6th century from Pembrokeshire. Three chapels are dedicated to him in Trégor (Ploulec'h, Rospez, Pommerit-Jaudy).

Phoebe Watts
05-28-2019, 06:02 PM
Have you any information about St Dogmael?

"Welsh monk of the house of Cunedda, the son of Ithel ab Ceredig ab Cunedda Wledig. He preached in Pembrokeshire, Wales, and then went to Brittany, in France. Several churches bear his name."

It is believed to have landed at Le Yaudet near Lannion in the early 6th century from Pembrokeshire. Three chapels are dedicated to him in Trégor (Ploulec'h, Rospez, Pommerit-Jaudy).

It looks as if little is known of him. Dictionary of Welsh Biography says “No details of the life of S. Dogmael are extant. The Welsh genealogies connect him with one of the three saintly tribes of Wales by making him the son of Ithel ap Ceredig ap Cunedda Wledig. To judge from the churches bearing his name, his activities in Wales were confined almost entirely to Pembrokeshire; for Llandudoch or S. Dogmaels (on the Teifi, opposite Cardigan) together with Capel Degwel in the same parish, S. Dogwell's (near Fish-guard), Mynachlog-ddu, and Meline are all in that county. The only exception is the church of Llanddogwel in Anglesey, formerly a parish in itself, but later attached to Llanfechell. In the 12th century a Benedictine priory was established on the site of Dogmael's chief foundation at Llandudoch. Traces of a S. Dogmael are to be found also in Brittany. Both 14 June and 31 October are quoted in different sources as his feast day.”

https://biography.wales/article/s-DOGM-SAN-0500

Phoebe Watts
06-15-2019, 10:12 AM
We were brought up with tales of “Y Wladfa”, the Welsh settlement in Patagonia. I have some relatives in my tree who went out to Patagonia, one or two died there and the others either returned to Wales or moved on to north America.

I don’t visit MyHeritage very often but I take a look at my new matches from time to time. European matches stand out well there. I use the location flags to sift the matches. Interesting to see that I now have more matches from Argentina with Spanish forenames and Welsh surnames. Their ancestors were obviously Welsh settlers in Chile and Patagonia but the connection must be quite distant.

JonikW
06-15-2019, 01:03 PM
We were brought up with tales of “Y Wladfa”, the Welsh settlement in Patagonia. I have some relatives in my tree who went out to Patagonia, one or two died there and the others either returned to Wales or moved on to north America.

I don’t visit MyHeritage very often but I take a look at my new matches from time to time. European matches stand out well there. I use the location flags to sift the matches. Interesting to see that I now have more matches from Argentina with Spanish forenames and Welsh surnames. Their ancestors were obviously Welsh settlers in Chile and Patagonia but the connection must be quite distant.

Fascinating. Did the Welsh settlers who made the voyage come from very specific parts of the language-speaking heartlands?

Phoebe Watts
06-15-2019, 02:01 PM
Fascinating. Did the Welsh settlers who made the voyage come from very specific parts of the language-speaking heartlands?

Good question. The venture was widely advertised, so they came from all over the heartlands - including Llynlleifiad (Liverpool) and Herefordshire. There was some secondary emigration too - people who had moved from rural Wales to the valleys already had looser roots. I think there were groups - geographic or denominational - but I don’t recall the detail.

ADD - there is a list of the fist emigrants on the Mimosa from Liverpool here: http://www.argbrit.org/Patagonia/mimosa.htm

(Note the uncertainty)

JonikW
06-15-2019, 03:02 PM
Good question. The venture was widely advertised, so they came from all over the heartlands - including Llynlleifiad (Liverpool) and Herefordshire. There was some secondary emigration too - people who had moved from rural Wales to the valleys already had looser roots. I think there were groups - geographic or denominational - but I don’t recall the detail.

ADD - there is a list of the fist emigrants on the Mimosa from Liverpool here: http://www.argbrit.org/Patagonia/mimosa.htm

(Note the uncertainty)

Thanks for adding the link. It's interesting that the Mimosa passengers seem to have come from various places from the far south to the north as well as some from Merseyside and its surrounds with Welsh surnames. I was surprised by the high number from Mountain Ash. I wonder what their trades were because it might suggest there was a severe shortage of work there at that point in time. Or was there also some kind of religious motivation?

Phoebe Watts
06-15-2019, 06:56 PM
Thanks for adding the link. It's interesting that the Mimosa passengers seem to have come from various places from the far south to the north as well as some from Merseyside and its surrounds with Welsh surnames. I was surprised by the high number from Mountain Ash. I wonder what their trades were because it might suggest there was a severe shortage of work there at that point in time. Or was there also some kind of religious motivation?

The histories of the settlement cite poverty and bad landlords. And it was a cultural movement building on some of the older emigrations to north America. There was a realisation that the Welsh settlements in north America were only surviving a couple of generations so they were looking for somewhere more isolated where they would be able to run their own affairs.

Merseyside and Manchester are just the north Wales equivalent of the South Wales valleys in this context. The emigrants from there were mostly recent inmigrants from the rural hinterland.

A popular minister went from Mountain Ash and some of his flock followed him in later years. Perhaps that was an influence? Mountain Ash was relatively new in the 1860s too so perhaps the population was still quite transient?I know that my great great grandfather left rural Carmarthenshire for Miskin in Mountain Ash in the 1860s. He went back marry and the family then lived in the Llantrisant area for a few months before returning to the south west.

JonikW
06-15-2019, 07:14 PM
The histories of the settlement cite poverty and bad landlords. And it was a cultural movement building on some of the older emigrations to north America. There was a realisation that the Welsh settlements in north America were only surviving a couple of generations so they were looking for somewhere more isolated where they would be able to run their own affairs.

Merseyside and Manchester are just the north Wales equivalent of the South Wales valleys in this context. The emigrants from there were mostly recent inmigrants from the rural hinterland.

A popular minister went from Mountain Ash and some of his flock followed him in later years. Perhaps that was an influence? Mountain Ash was relatively new in the 1860s too so perhaps the population was still quite transient?I know that my great great grandfather left rural Carmarthenshire for Miskin in Mountain Ash in the 1860s. He went back marry and the family then lived in the Llantrisant area for a few months before returning to the south west.

Interesting about the minister as a possible influence. You mention Llantrisant, which takes me straight back to childhood and visits to my mum's friend who lived there. Her husband made lovespoons (a subject we've touched on here before when I posted a pic of an 18th century one that belonged to my grandmother) and I admired his craftsmanship very much. He was extremely adept and some of the spoons had moveable balls within the handles. You're lucky to live in Wales still. Do you travel around the country much? I know that when I've lived in any given place I've often neglected the main attractions, but Wales really does have so much of beauty and historical interest everywhere. I only get back there once every year or so now, sadly.

Phoebe Watts
06-15-2019, 09:34 PM
Interesting about the minister as a possible influence. You mention Llantrisant, which takes me straight back to childhood and visits to my mum's friend who lived there. Her husband made lovespoons (a subject we've touched on here before when I posted a pic of an 18th century one that belonged to my grandmother) and I admired his craftsmanship very much. He was extremely adept and some of the spoons had moveable balls within the handles. You're lucky to live in Wales still. Do you travel around the country much? I know that when I've lived in any given place I've often neglected the main attractions, but Wales really does have so much of beauty and historical interest everywhere. I only get back there once every year or so now, sadly.

Not as much as I should. For a small country it is difficult to get around. I know the west more than the east but I have been to Mountain Ash and to Llantrisant. Not to Patagonia though, although it is quite fashionable!

JonikW
06-15-2019, 10:07 PM
Not as much as I should. For a small country it is difficult to get around. I know the west more than the east but I have been to Mountain Ash and to Llantrisant. Not to Patagonia though, although it is quite fashionable!

I hope to see more of it again soon. I'd love to repeat some of my childhood drives around the country. Yes, Patagonia would be interesting. Huw Edwards made a TV programme on the Welsh community there a year or so back. His language skills were impressive.

msmarjoribanks
06-16-2019, 08:04 PM
I've recently been exploring the Duolingo app, and was trying to decide between learning German, Swedish, or Welsh (German seemed the practical choice, but I've been doing Swedish, although I will likely do Welsh before my trip to Wales, which I keep putting off, as I'd like to be able to pronounce the towns my ggg grandparents came from correctly). They have all kinds of weird adverts (one aimed at trying to convince you to learn High Valerian), one that asserts that there are more learning Irish in Duolingo than native Irish speakers. No claims about Welsh so far,

spruithean
06-16-2019, 08:09 PM
I've recently been exploring the Duolingo app, and was trying to decide between learning German, Swedish, or Welsh (German seemed the practical choice, but I've been doing Swedish, although I will likely do Welsh before my trip to Wales, which I keep putting off, as I'd like to be able to pronounce the towns my ggg grandparents came from correctly). They have all kinds of weird adverts (one aimed at trying to convince you to learn High Valerian), one that asserts that there are more learning Irish in Duolingo than native Irish speakers. No claims about Welsh so far,

Prynhawn da,

I've been using Duolingo for a while now, mostly for Irish and Welsh (and to brush up on my French and Dutch). I would ignore the ads for the fictional languages though :lol:

It's a decent app, maybe not necessarily perfect but it is good.

JonikW
06-24-2019, 08:43 PM
Posting this here because people interested in Wales may not have been monitoring posts about Ancestry. Their latest update has nailed my single biggest region: here's a map of places associated with my gg grandparents and further back, along with the only Very Likely Genetic Community they've just assigned me. If you are of Welsh descent, have you had similarly accurate results from Ancestry or others, or otherwise disappointing ones, which Ancestry was for me before this week?

31149

31150

Phoebe Watts
06-24-2019, 09:41 PM
Posting this here because people interested in Wales may not have been monitoring posts about Ancestry. Their latest update has nailed my single biggest region: here's a map of places associated with my gg grandparents and further back, along with the only Very Likely Genetic Community they've just assigned me. If you are of Welsh descent, have you had similarly accurate results from Ancestry or others, or otherwise disappointing ones, which Ancestry was for me before this week?.



Perhaps I can add a subsidiary question? Does anyone score a Welsh community based on Welsh ggg grandparents or further? I know it will be difficult to generalise.

All my closest matches have a Welsh GC, including some 3C2Rs whose ancestors emigrated in the 1850s. My first match without a Welsh community is Wendy, a 4C1R. Two of her 2G grandparents emigrated in the 1850s from the same part of west Wales, they met on the journey and married in America.

JonikW
06-24-2019, 10:13 PM
Perhaps I can add a subsidiary question? Does anyone score a Welsh community based on Welsh ggg grandparents or further? I know it will be difficult to generalise.

All my closest matches have a Welsh GC, including some 3C2Rs whose ancestors emigrated in the 1850s. My first match without a Welsh community is Wendy, a 4C1R. Two of her 2G grandparents emigrated in the 1850s from the same part of west Wales, they met on the journey and married in America.

Excellent question. I'd love to see how some of our American members fared. My only other GC region, a Possible reading for Wilts, Glos and W Oxfordshire actually does form some of my tree. This is largely through a Hawkins ancestor, born in the early 19th century illegitimately and who was given his mother's surname. The banns had been read for her to marry a "sojourner" called Harris, who I think was a navvy. So I guess he might take me back to Wales again.

Edit: just to clarify, my map didn't include locations for Welsh grandparents and g grandparents. That's because they had moved to Cwmbran and other parts to work in the mines. So although that area is meaningful to me from my childhood, it doesn't reflect my deeper ancestry.

Lirio100
06-24-2019, 10:49 PM
I have a great grandfather from Staffordshire and I have the Midlands but I don't have a GC for his wife, an immigrant from Wales. I would have thought if something showed up for him it would for her too.

msmarjoribanks
06-25-2019, 04:48 AM
Perhaps I can add a subsidiary question? Does anyone score a Welsh community based on Welsh ggg grandparents or further? I know it will be difficult to generalise.

All my closest matches have a Welsh GC, including some 3C2Rs whose ancestors emigrated in the 1850s. My first match without a Welsh community is Wendy, a 4C1R. Two of her 2G grandparents emigrated in the 1850s from the same part of west Wales, they met on the journey and married in America.

Not me, I think I'm like Wendy. My gg-grandmother (born in Wisconsin) was fully Welsh, her mother (came to US in 1849) was from Trefriw (then in Caernarvonshire) and her father (came to US in 1851) from Llangadfan (then Montgomeryshire), and her husband was likely part Welsh (but likely more borderlands, as the ancestry I know is Shropshire), and I have other likely Welsh ancestors, and I get no GC. I suspect that's partially because it's a variety of areas within Wales, but also that I don't have enough actual Welsh ancestors who have tested. My closest match in Wales is 4th-6th cousin (not yet placed), doesn't match my sister or first cousin on that side, and we have no shared matches that show in Ancestry. To the extent I have matches on that line in the US, they are related to me within the US.

But I don't quite get how GCs work for people in the US, as I have a great grandmother who was 100% Swedish (and her parents were from near each other and married in Sweden, although my g-grandmother was born soon after they came to the US), and I don't get a Swedish GC either. (Apologies as I know I've repeated this numerous times.)

I have somewhat recent English ancestry (gg-grandfather), but his ancestry is split between Essex and Shropshire, and the rest of my English ancestry is colonial (largely 1600s) and mixed no doubt, so I am not surprised I don't get a GC for any part of England. I think it can be hard for Americans to get GCs and I am always interested in which Americans get them (it seems easier for people in Canada and Australia -- I have a bunch of Canadian matches through my Essex ancestors, so I should see if they get anything, but it wouldn't be relevant to this thread as they aren't Welsh to my knowledge).

rms2
06-25-2019, 02:11 PM
Perhaps I can add a subsidiary question? Does anyone score a Welsh community based on Welsh ggg grandparents or further? I know it will be difficult to generalise.

All my closest matches have a Welsh GC, including some 3C2Rs whose ancestors emigrated in the 1850s. My first match without a Welsh community is Wendy, a 4C1R. Two of her 2G grandparents emigrated in the 1850s from the same part of west Wales, they met on the journey and married in America.

I don't. When it comes to my y-chromosome line, I'm Welsh, but when it comes to my overall autosomal ancestry I'm British and Irish that was thrown into an American blender and recombined according to the regional history of North America.

Here's my Ancestry Ethnicity Estimate, which I think is pretty accurate.

31165

That's why I don't do Living DNA, because I don't think it would do much good. My ancestors came from Britain and Ireland (and the Netherlands, France, and Switzerland) a long time ago, so in terms of autosomal dna I'm not going to track to one or two particular regions in the Isles, except maybe generally western.

JonikW
07-05-2019, 12:09 AM
I'd love to see some aDNA work on these 100 people. I like the idea of a collaboration between Wales and Ireland and hope to see more of this kind even if we leave the EU.
https://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/17750143.change-view-medieval-chapel-excavation-burials-dating-back-1-500-years/

rms2
08-11-2019, 02:35 AM
It's funny that dna testing, especially y-dna testing, points me toward Wales, but the more I learn, the less I am concerned with Celts. Instead, I am driven further back, to the Kurgan Bell Beaker people and perhaps to Corded Ware, which may have been the source of Kurgan Bell Beaker.

Now the Celts seem comparatively recent, the way the flappers of the 1920s used to seem. I know: weird.

spruithean
08-11-2019, 12:46 PM
I don't. When it comes to my y-chromosome line, I'm Welsh, but when it comes to my overall autosomal ancestry I'm British and Irish that was thrown into an American blender and recombined according to the regional history of North America.

Here's my Ancestry Ethnicity Estimate, which I think is pretty accurate.

31165

That's why I don't do Living DNA, because I don't think it would do much good. My ancestors came from Britain and Ireland (and the Netherlands, France, and Switzerland) a long time ago, so in terms of autosomal dna I'm not going to track to one or two particular regions in the Isles, except maybe generally western.

I have a similar case I suppose, though my Y-line prior to anything genealogically relevant is probably not Welsh :lol:, and I still really have no idea what it may be. I have a network of matches for certain parts of my family tree ranging from Ireland, Scotland, Cornwall and the Netherlands. The network for the my Irish matches spans both Ulster, Munster and settlers in Canada. Beyond that I also have the communities I would expect with ancestry from Nova Scotia & PEI, with those being Scottish Highlands, Ulster, Nova Scotia settlers and New England settlers to name a few.



It's funny that dna testing, especially y-dna testing, points me toward Wales, but the more I learn, the less I am concerned with Celts. Instead, I am driven further back, to the Kurgan Bell Beaker people and perhaps to Corded Ware, which may have been the source of Kurgan Bell Beaker.

Now the Celts seem comparatively recent, the way the flappers of the 1920s used to seem. I know: weird.

I would say that the Celts don't have as mysterious a quality as that of the Kurgan Bell Beaker or the Corded Ware. However, the Celts still capture the imagination of many to this day. My biggest interest in terms of paleogenetics is Haplogroup I1, clearly it arrived via aliens :lol:

rms2
08-13-2019, 01:50 PM
. . .

I would say that the Celts don't have as mysterious a quality as that of the Kurgan Bell Beaker or the Corded Ware. However, the Celts still capture the imagination of many to this day. My biggest interest in terms of paleogenetics is Haplogroup I1, clearly it arrived via aliens :lol:

The Celts certainly are the focus of a good deal of wannabeism, surpassed in that only by the Vikings, the Germanic barbarians of the Migration Period, and the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

When I ordered my first Y-37 test from FTDNA, I was hoping to discover that my y line was Viking. That didn't pan out, so I dropped it pretty quickly in exchange for reality, which is more fun anyway because it is, after all, real.

My primary interest is in my personal genealogy. I get into the wayback machine only when things are slow on the personal genealogy front.

spruithean
08-13-2019, 02:25 PM
The Celts certainly are the focus of a good deal of wannabeism, surpassed in that only by the Vikings, the Germanic barbarians of the Migration Period, and the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

When I ordered my first Y-37 test from FTDNA, I was hoping to discover that my y line was Viking. That didn't pan out, so I dropped it pretty quickly in exchange for reality, which is more fun anyway because it is, after all, real.

My primary interest is in my personal genealogy. I get into the wayback machine only when things are slow on the personal genealogy front.

Wannabeism, that is a good way to describe it. It is certainly not helped by the romanticism behind these groups in history that attracts this sort of attention.

Funny you should say you had hoped your Y-line was Viking. When I initially ordered a Y-DNA test my cousin had his results on our surnames project page and he was a lone-wolf and I wanted to test to see if I was match to him, but I also wanted to know if perhaps his result was a fluke, especially since our surnames lore connects it to Niall Noígíallach. It turned out that it was not a fluke and at the time we were really somewhere under the I-M170 haplogroup umbrella.

My personal genealogy is also my main focus. Though things have been extremely slow on that front, which is probably why I've been more interested in prehistoric and historic movements of humans, and specifically those who belonged to I1 (or perhaps just I-M170).

rms2
08-13-2019, 02:49 PM
I think in us men, there is still enough of the little boy that romantic swashbuckling wannabeism will always be a factor.

I'm pretty satisfied with the y-chromosome hand I've been dealt. It's swashbuckling enough. ;)

There's plenty of that in every y-dna haplogroup to go around, I guess.

JMcB
08-13-2019, 03:20 PM
The Celts certainly are the focus of a good deal of wannabeism, surpassed in that only by the Vikings, the Germanic barbarians of the Migration Period, and the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

When I ordered my first Y-37 test from FTDNA, I was hoping to discover that my y line was Viking. That didn't pan out, so I dropped it pretty quickly in exchange for reality, which is more fun anyway because it is, after all, real.

My primary interest is in my personal genealogy. I get into the wayback machine only when things are slow on the personal genealogy front.

Interesting!

When I started out, I thought I was going to be some version of R-M269 or possibly R-M222. At that time, I believed I was descended from of a Sept attached to the O’Dochartaigh Clann in Ireland. As my surname was one of the ones associated with them. While waiting for my results I notice there was a small subsection (18%) in my surname project, who were I-M253. So I looked it up and thought; hmm, that’s interesting! Well, as you can probably guess, that’s what I turned out to be. So I put months of research back on the shelf and started out in an entirely new direction. And there were more course corrections to come.

rms2
08-13-2019, 09:02 PM
Interesting!

When I started out, I thought I was going to be some version of R-M269 or possibly R-M222. At that time, I believed I was descended from of a Sept attached to the O’Dochartaigh Clann in Ireland. As my surname was one of the ones associated with them. While waiting for my results I notice there was a small subsection (18%) in my surname project, who were I-M253. So I looked it up and thought; hmm, that’s interesting! Well, as you can probably guess, that’s what I turned out to be. So I put months of research back on the shelf and started out in an entirely new direction. And there were more course corrections to come.

I had no idea what I would be, although I thought some kind of R1b likely, since it is the most common y-dna haplogroup in western Europe. However, at the time I was hoping for what back then was called "I1a" (I-M253), because at that time I1a was regarded by the denizens of Rootsweb as the Viking y-dna haplogroup. Ken Nordtvedt was the preeminent I1a expert on Rootsweb, and I greatly admired his postings.

When I got my initial "R1b1" result and began reading about R1b (spring 2006) there was a tremendous load of ridiculous crap current involving the Iberian LGM Refuge, the Basques, etc., etc. I believed all that for maybe a day or two. It just never made any sense to me.

08-13-2019, 09:34 PM
I always felt very Welsh, even though my Mum had a Scottish maiden surname, “Grant” her family way back when were Welsh speakers who just did not pass on that language to her, as time went on I felt more probably Celtic, and especially after living in England in my early 20s for Uni, felt quite removed from them, which probably exacerbated my feeling of Celticness.

Before testing I felt 100% sure I would be R1b of some subclade, which a few years ago people were saying was a Celtic marker.
After my initial tests came back I was quite shocked to find out I was R1a, how could this be I thought? Viking, Norman, Slav? So I tested deeper and deeper, down the rabbit hole.
R1a-Z283, then finally which is the current knowledge of my haplogroup R1a- Z283 - Y128147.

Current understanding is it could be related to Norman’s coming into Ireland, almost all of the Irish Eustace family seems to have this haplogroup, my 1 SNP match is a McDonald, strangely enough originating in Northern Ireland.

How it came to be associated with the Normans is the real question, being once western cordered ware, and maybe now an extinct subgroup in its original land.

JonikW
08-13-2019, 09:40 PM
I had no idea what I would be, although I thought some kind of R1b likely, since it is the most common y-dna haplogroup in western Europe. However, at the time I was hoping for what back then was called "I1a" (I-M253), because at that time I1a was regarded by the denizens of Rootsweb as the Viking y-dna haplogroup. Ken Nordtvedt was the preeminent I1a expert on Rootsweb, and I greatly admired his postings.

When I got my initial "R1b1" result and began reading about R1b (spring 2006) there was a tremendous load of ridiculous crap current involving the Iberian LGM Refuge, the Basques, etc., etc. I believed all that for maybe a day or two. It just never made any sense to me.

I expected to be R1b too and knew nothing about I1 then. I wrote to Ken Nordtvedt, who was still active when I got my initial I-M253 result on 23andme and asked him whether I could ever hope to discriminate and know whether my first paternal forefather in this country was a Danish Viking or an Anglo-Saxon or other. He wisely said that was unlikely, which is where I am today.
Returning to Wales, I took my family and some friends to Llangollen two days ago. We walked up to the ruined castle of Dinas Bran. I hadn't been there for 25 years but told them that Llangollen holds everything that's most special about Wales in one small place: mountains, ruins, a beautiful river and a pretty town. I'm pleased to say that it exceeded all our expectations.

rms2
08-13-2019, 09:41 PM
Aren't the R1a MacDonalds supposed to be the descendants of Somerled (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/)?

08-13-2019, 09:45 PM
Aren't the R1a MacDonalds supposed to be the descendants of Somerled (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/)?

Yeah, but they go down stream of R-Z284,and likely originating in Norway, my SNP match “my McDonald”, and I and the Irish Eustace, do not, we have our very own branch downstream of R-Z283.

rms2
08-13-2019, 09:47 PM
I know of at least two y haplogroup I lines in my pedigree. My third great grandfather Abner Standish Washburn was I-M253. I know that from communicating with cousins on that line. I have not checked their project recently to find out if they have gone any further than I-M253 in SNP testing.

My fourth great grandfather Leonard Stutts, son of the immigrant Jacob Stutz from Switzerland, was I-M170. I know that from communicating with a Stutts cousin who is a pretty good Ancestry DNA match for me. He hasn't gotten any further than I-M170 because he tested with the old Genographic Project, and that's as far as they took things back when he tested.

JMcB
08-13-2019, 09:52 PM
I had no idea what I would be, although I thought some kind of R1b likely, since it is the most common y-dna haplogroup in western Europe. However, at the time I was hoping for what back then was called "I1a" (I-M253), because at that time I1a was regarded by the denizens of Rootsweb as the Viking y-dna haplogroup. Ken Nordtvedt was the preeminent I1a expert on Rootsweb, and I greatly admired his postings.

When I got my initial "R1b1" result and began reading about R1b (spring 2006) there was a tremendous load of ridiculous crap current involving the Iberian LGM Refuge, the Basques, etc., etc. I believed all that for maybe a day or two. It just never made any sense to me.

My surname is a old Gaelic name so I naturally (and mistakenly) assumed my Haplogroup was going to reflect the origins of my surname. Little did I know. Coincidentally, I also contacted Nordtvedt after I got my results and he was very helpful. He told me my markers pointed towards a Germanic branch of I1 and that my ancestors probably came from the coastal regions around Southern Denmark, North Western Germany and Frisia and most likely arrived in the Isles with the Anglo Saxons. When I asked him how they could’ve ended up in Galloway, Scotland, he told me the Angles had a significant impact on that area and that many Anglo Saxons later fled into Scotland during the Norman Conquest. Unfortunately, he dropped from the scene soon thereafter and presumably entered into retirement. Like you, I searched through Rootsweb and read everything I could find written by him. He’s an interesting fellow and I wish him well!

rms2
08-13-2019, 09:55 PM
I know of at least two y haplogroup I lines in my pedigree. My third great grandfather Abner Standish Washburn was I-M253. I know that from communicating with cousins on that line. I have not checked their project recently to find out if they have gone any further than I-M253 in SNP testing . . .

I just took a peek. Looks like they've gotten as far as I-BY40607. Anyone know much about that one, whether it's Anglo-Saxon or Viking?

rms2
08-13-2019, 10:07 PM
My surname is a old Gaelic name so I naturally (and mistakenly) assumed my Haplogroup was going reflect the origins of my surname. Little did I know. Coincidentally, I also contacted Nordtvedt after I got my results and he was very helpful. He told me my markers pointed towards a Germanic branch of I1 and that my ancestors probably came from the coastal regions of Southern Denmark, North Western Germany and Frisia and most likely arrived in the Isles with the Anglo Saxons. When I asked him how they could’ve ended up in Galloway, Scotland, he told me the Angles had a significant impact on that area and that many Anglo Saxons later fled into Scotland during the Norman Conquest. Unfortunately, he dropped from the scene soon thereafter and presumably entered into retirement. Like you, I searched through Rootsweb and read everything I could find written by him. He’s an interesting fellow and I wish him well!

I agree. Ken Nordtvedt is a genius and an all-round great guy. Once I found out I was R1b I started wishing he was R1b, too. We never had anyone of his caliber, and we still don't.

rms2
08-13-2019, 10:15 PM
Sorry for yet another rapid-fire post.

I've mentioned this before, but I really enjoy finding out the y-dna haplogroups of my ancestors not on my own y-dna line. I kind of feel like I own those haplogroups, as well. After all, those men are my ancestors, too.

So far, as I mentioned, I know of two y-haplogroup I lines. I also know that one of my second great grandfathers (surname Holmes) was E-V13.

I'll continue to collect as many of them as I can.

JonikW
08-13-2019, 10:39 PM
I just took a peek. Looks like they've gotten as far as I-BY40607. Anyone know much about that one, whether it's Anglo-Saxon or Viking?

Can you tell us the main upstream SNPs?

rms2
08-13-2019, 11:37 PM
Can you tell us the main upstream SNPs?

Here's the complete pedigree according to Genetic Homeland (https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnapedigree.asp?RecordID=1335937):

M253>DF29>S243>BY151>L849>S2078>S2077>Y6375>Y6384>Y13945>BY40787>BY40607.

Hope I didn't screw any of that up.

JonikW
08-14-2019, 09:21 AM
Here's the complete pedigree according to Genetic Homeland (https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnapedigree.asp?RecordID=1335937):

M253>DF29>S243>BY151>L849>S2078>S2077>Y6375>Y6384>Y13945>BY40787>BY40607.

Hope I didn't screw any of that up.

Taking a look at the more recent SNPs and matches at YFull and FTDNA, there are fewer testers of Scandinavian origin than is the case with some other I1 subclades. So we are restricted to Britain at Y6375, which seems an informative SNP for the migration period as far as its TMRCA is concerned. Here the problem applies that many English testers pick the St George’s flag on YFull, which doesn’t give them the option of displaying which county their line was from. I can see a Cornwall there (Y13945) as well as a Gloucestershire downstream from your SNP. If I had to guess I would say a spread of your relative’s Y line with the Saxons is most likely (with my own I’d say the Angles because my immediate upstream matches are firmly in the north and east of England as well as Scandinavia for my terminal SNP). As we all know, these things are fraught with difficulty. One Y line could come over with the Angles, for example, to be followed a SNP or two later by someone from the Danish Vikings. So from Anglo-Saxon to Viking in a few generations. Any idea where the family was from and whether they’d been there for a long time?

msmarjoribanks
08-14-2019, 06:00 PM
I collect ancestor YDNA when I can find them too (and I've asked various people to test). I have a Swedish line who I have YDNA on from 23andMe, but there break down is only R-Z19 (a subclade of R-U106). So far everyone else I've collected is also R-M269 (and the ones on FTDNA have not tested further). My dad is R-M269 and L21, but then a rarer subclade that supposedly is more European, so I'd just like to know if we can identify when his ancestors likely came to the UK. Someday we will have more matches.

rms2
08-14-2019, 06:37 PM
I collect ancestor YDNA when I can find them too (and I've asked various people to test). I have a Swedish line who I have YDNA on from 23andMe, but there break down is only R-Z19 (a subclade of R-U106). So far everyone else I've collected is also R-M269 (and the ones on FTDNA have not tested further). My dad is R-M269 and L21, but then a rarer subclade that supposedly is more European, so I'd just like to know if we can identify when his ancestors likely came to the UK. Someday we will have more matches.

Looks like I might have found another one. One of my 4th great grandmothers on my dad's side was Sarah Stovall (b. 1777). Looks like her father's line was R1b-L270. Here's the phylogenetic pedigree on that one:

L21>DF13>FGC11134>A353>Z16250>A114>CTS4466>S1115>FGC84010>A541>S1121>L270.

CTS4466 apparently designates Irish Type II, but the immigrant (Bartholomew Stovall) came to North America from Surrey, England.

spruithean
08-18-2019, 09:55 PM
Taking a look at the more recent SNPs and matches at YFull and FTDNA, there are fewer testers of Scandinavian origin than is the case with some other I1 subclades. So we are restricted to Britain at Y6375, which seems an informative SNP for the migration period as far as its TMRCA is concerned. Here the problem applies that many English testers pick the St George’s flag on YFull, which doesn’t give them the option of displaying which county their line was from. I can see a Cornwall there (Y13945) as well as a Gloucestershire downstream from your SNP. If I had to guess I would say a spread of your relative’s Y line with the Saxons is most likely (with my own I’d say the Angles because my immediate upstream matches are firmly in the north and east of England as well as Scandinavia for my terminal SNP). As we all know, these things are fraught with difficulty. One Y line could come over with the Angles, for example, to be followed a SNP or two later by someone from the Danish Vikings. So from Anglo-Saxon to Viking in a few generations. Any idea where the family was from and whether they’d been there for a long time?

I-Y6375 is a subclade of the elusive I-Z63 which doesn't seem to follow any real pattern of distribution (like Angle or Norse). So far Z63 related SNPs have been found in Wielbark (allegedly) and a Lombard setting (debatable if the individual was ethnically Lombard, and not Gepid).

JonikW
08-18-2019, 10:14 PM
I-Y6375 is a subclade of the elusive I-Z63 which doesn't seem to follow any real pattern of distribution (like Angle or Norse). So far Z63 related SNPs have been found in Wielbark (allegedly) and a Lombard setting (debatable if the individual was ethnically Lombard, and not Gepid).

Given that Z63 dates to shortly after modern I1 itself, I reckon the more recent subclades are the informative ones for working out possible routes to the Isles. We've still got a heck of a lot to learn, that's for sure.

JonikW
09-06-2019, 09:55 PM
This struck me as interesting from the new paper on Scotland and Ireland (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/08/27/1904761116#sec-5) regarding Wales and the Welsh and is developed further in the study:
"We first performed a supervised ADMIXTURE (14) analysis, modeling British and Irish clusters of interest as a mixture of 3 sources, England, ‘Wales’ (N Wales and S Wales), and Norway (Fig. 3A). These sources approximately represent Celtic (Wales), Saxon (England), and Norse (Norway)... The majority of ancestry in our tested clusters is modeled as the Welsh ancestral component, reflecting a common “Celtic” ancestry across Scotland and Ireland."
The paper only used the POBI dataset for England and Wales (so we're still sadly lacking a rigorous study for Wales), but the map showing regional clusters is worth a look and a comparison with POBI's because some areas (including the Welsh Borders) look a bit clearer to me here.
This from the Scottish and Irish paper also accords with the POBI study but is nevertheless interesting:
"We observe the lowest levels of autozygosity in the group of clusters we denote as ‘England
313 and Wales’. Most English clusters show the lowest levels of autozygosity in the whole analysis, with
314 the exception of Cornwall. Cornwall (and Welsh clusters) shows elevated ROH that extend to runs
315 larger than 5Mb – suggesting a degree of genetic isolation which agrees with their respective
316 histories"

Phoebe Watts
09-09-2019, 10:15 AM
This struck me as interesting from the new paper on Scotland and Ireland (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/08/27/1904761116#sec-5) regarding Wales and the Welsh and is developed further in the study:
"We first performed a supervised ADMIXTURE (14) analysis, modeling British and Irish clusters of interest as a mixture of 3 sources, England, ‘Wales’ (N Wales and S Wales), and Norway (Fig. 3A). These sources approximately represent Celtic (Wales), Saxon (England), and Norse (Norway)... The majority of ancestry in our tested clusters is modeled as the Welsh ancestral component, reflecting a common “Celtic” ancestry across Scotland and Ireland."
The paper only used the POBI dataset for England and Wales (so we're still sadly lacking a rigorous study for Wales), but the map showing regional clusters is worth a look and a comparison with POBI's because some areas (including the Welsh Borders) look a bit clearer to me here.
This from the Scottish and Irish paper also accords with the POBI study but is nevertheless interesting:
"We observe the lowest levels of autozygosity in the group of clusters we denote as ‘England
313 and Wales’. Most English clusters show the lowest levels of autozygosity in the whole analysis, with
314 the exception of Cornwall. Cornwall (and Welsh clusters) shows elevated ROH that extend to runs
315 larger than 5Mb – suggesting a degree of genetic isolation which agrees with their respective
316 histories"

It is good to have the Scottish and Manx information

The nation-making histories of the “gwledydd” of these islands are rather contradictory so this more complete picture is fascinating. It is interesting to see familiar names from Welsh history : Gododdin, Rheged and Ystrad Clud/ Strathclyde.

From a Welsh perspective (because the Welsh component is a benchmark) it is a little like looking through the wrong end of a telescope so a Welsh interpretation would be useful.

Táltos
09-11-2019, 05:42 AM
Hi guys, a few months back I realized that I had some Welsh ancestry (due to 23andme) assigning ancestor locations. I mentioned this to my mother's sister, and she said that we did have ancestry from Wales. However she could not provide anymore details.

This same aunt surprisingly agreed to take a DNA test. Today her Ancestry result came in. The only genetic community she received was to Wales//Mid Wales! Her England, Wales, & Northwestern Europe is only 7%.

JonikW
09-11-2019, 07:38 AM
Hi guys, a few months back I realized that I had some Welsh ancestry (due to 23andme) assigning ancestor locations. I mentioned this to my mother's sister, and she said that we did have ancestry from Wales. However she could not provide anymore details.

This same aunt surprisingly agreed to take a DNA test. Today her Ancestry result came in. The only genetic community she received was to Wales//Mid Wales! Her England, Wales, & Northwestern Europe is only 7%.

I like the new GCs and they certainly tie in well for me. Any chance of discovering more about your Welsh line, and may I ask what your aunt scored for Ireland and Scotland?

Táltos
09-11-2019, 12:42 PM
I like the new GCs and they certainly tie in well for me. Any chance of discovering more about your Welsh line, and may I ask what your aunt scored for Ireland and Scotland?

She scored 11% for Ireland & Scotland. No GCs for them. Here is her complete result.

28% France
24% Greek & the Balkans
20% Italy
11% Ireland & Scotland
8% Germanic Europe
7% England, Wales, & NW Europe-Wales/ Mid Wales
2% Turkey & the Caucasus


She is mix on her mom's side. I was really surprised to see that she did not get Pennsylvania Settlers either. One of our close family member's on there received that. I was also surprised at how high the French is compared to German, but I guess they have issues too with teasing out which is which? I do have some proof that some of my early German lines married people in France. But it's really far back. I wouldn't expect that to be her top score.

Honestly I'm not as familiar with how Ancestry's results go as compared to 23andme and FTDNA's tests.

sktibo
09-11-2019, 05:05 PM
She scored 11% for Ireland & Scotland. No GCs for them. Here is her complete result.

28% France
24% Greek & the Balkans
20% Italy
11% Ireland & Scotland
8% Germanic Europe
7% England, Wales, & NW Europe-Wales/ Mid Wales
2% Turkey & the Caucasus


She is mix on her mom's side. I was really surprised to see that she did not get Pennsylvania Settlers either. One of our close family member's on there received that. I was also surprised at how high the French is compared to German, but I guess they have issues too with teasing out which is which? I do have some proof that some of my early German lines married people in France. But it's really far back. I wouldn't expect that to be her top score.

Honestly I'm not as familiar with how Ancestry's results go as compared to 23andme and FTDNA's tests.

From what I have seen (which is not that comprehensive but FWIW) German is usually confused with England, Wales, NW Europe, as is French DNA - but percentages assigned as French are usually French DNA which has been underestimated. If there had been no background information provided to this I would say it looks like more French ancestry mixed with a bit of German.

msmarjoribanks
09-11-2019, 09:38 PM
She scored 11% for Ireland & Scotland. No GCs for them. Here is her complete result.

28% France
24% Greek & the Balkans
20% Italy
11% Ireland & Scotland
8% Germanic Europe
7% England, Wales, & NW Europe-Wales/ Mid Wales
2% Turkey & the Caucasus


She is mix on her mom's side. I was really surprised to see that she did not get Pennsylvania Settlers either. One of our close family member's on there received that. I was also surprised at how high the French is compared to German, but I guess they have issues too with teasing out which is which? I do have some proof that some of my early German lines married people in France. But it's really far back. I wouldn't expect that to be her top score.

Honestly I'm not as familiar with how Ancestry's results go as compared to 23andme and FTDNA's tests.

That's so interesting -- they seem to usually mess it up by overstating England, etc., rather than the opposite.

Are you administering your aunt's account? If it were me, I'd try to track down the closest matches who are also in the Welsh GC to see if I could identify what side it seemed to be on. Can you see the GCs for matches?

Táltos
09-12-2019, 05:19 AM
That's so interesting -- they seem to usually mess it up by overstating England, etc., rather than the opposite.

Are you administering your aunt's account? If it were me, I'd try to track down the closest matches who are also in the Welsh GC to see if I could identify what side it seemed to be on. Can you see the GCs for matches?

Yes, I can see the GC's matches. So far I can't make heads or tails out of how we match. I only know it is through the direct maternal line.

LloydG
09-15-2019, 06:49 PM
I agree more diligence is needed. I got as far a Joshua Griffith and all I see is Piers as the father. Did you have any luck finding Joshua's Father & Mother. I am new at this so any help would be appreciated.

"Cousin" Lloyd

JonikW
01-02-2020, 11:01 PM
I'm keen to see more posts on this excellent thread in 2020 so I'll kick off with last year's most notable translation blunders (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/embarrassing-welsh-language-fails-show-17377938.amp). I can't talk: I was given my first learners' book on a stay with native-speaking friends of my mum's near Aberystwyth as a kid in the '70s but have barely improved since.
My favourite: 'Shoppers were left baffled to see the words "Din Cofnod" painted on the ground in big bold white blocks, next to the English word, 'No Entry'. The word "din" should have said "dim" and, while "cofnod" can mean "entry", it would be used to describe an entry as in a register.'

Phoebe Watts
01-11-2020, 07:08 PM
I'm keen to see more posts on this excellent thread in 2020 so I'll kick off with last year's most notable translation blunders (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/embarrassing-welsh-language-fails-show-17377938.amp). I can't talk: I was given my first learners' book on a stay with native-speaking friends of my mum's near Aberystwyth as a kid in the '70s but have barely improved since.
My favourite: 'Shoppers were left baffled to see the words "Din Cofnod" painted on the ground in big bold white blocks, next to the English word, 'No Entry'. The word "din" should have said "dim" and, while "cofnod" can mean "entry", it would be used to describe an entry as in a register.'

It is good that the Daily Post makes the point that Google Translate shouldn’t be used for formal translation into the Welsh language.

There are better online translation sites but even the best say clearly that you can’t rely on their systems to translate formal documents. I guess that accuracy is even more difficult with smaller languages than with international languages.

Has anyone here used a translation site to translate into Welsh?

Phoebe Watts
01-13-2020, 07:51 PM
I thought this might be interesting.

The song starts with a reference to Macsen Wledig (Magnus Maximus) in the year 383.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51083459

JonikW
01-13-2020, 10:16 PM
I thought this might be interesting.

The song starts with a reference to Macsen Wledig (Magnus Maximus) in the year 383.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51083459

Thanks for posting this Phoebe. Iwan shares my Gramps' Welsh L371 clade of L21 and I wish him all the best after all these years in the spotlight. The short Dream of Macsen Wledig is my favourite book of the Mabinogion too. This is an old translation (http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/welsh/mab/dreamofmaxen.html) but the two one-line letters from Rome and back make this one of the greats of Celtic literature for me. Up there with the Táin.

msmarjoribanks
01-14-2020, 12:03 AM
It is good that the Daily Post makes the point that Google Translate shouldn’t be used for formal translation into the Welsh language.

There are better online translation sites but even the best say clearly that you can’t rely on their systems to translate formal documents. I guess that accuracy is even more difficult with smaller languages than with international languages.

Has anyone here used a translation site to translate into Welsh?

I've used them a bit in trying to read some old newspaper stuff, but not to actually try to translate anything formally.

JonikW
01-14-2020, 12:56 AM
I thought this might be interesting.

The song starts with a reference to Macsen Wledig (Magnus Maximus) in the year 383.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51083459

Here's a rousing duet version (http://youtu.be/12DsDOHzmjE) of the song with subtitles. Inspiring stuff.

Phoebe Watts
01-14-2020, 10:02 AM
I've used them a bit in trying to read some old newspaper stuff, but not to actually try to translate anything formally.

It is useful for a quick translation from an unfamiliar language into a language you know. Welsh obituaries from the 1800s don’t translate easily into modern language though.

Cunobelinus_T
01-15-2020, 01:47 PM
I'm keen to see more posts on this excellent thread in 2020 so I'll kick off with last year's most notable translation blunders (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/embarrassing-welsh-language-fails-show-17377938.amp). I can't talk: I was given my first learners' book on a stay with native-speaking friends of my mum's near Aberystwyth as a kid in the '70s but have barely improved since.
My favourite: 'Shoppers were left baffled to see the words "Din Cofnod" painted on the ground in big bold white blocks, next to the English word, 'No Entry'. The word "din" should have said "dim" and, while "cofnod" can mean "entry", it would be used to describe an entry as in a register.'

Not a Google blunder, but my favourite is Heol y Defaid (Street of the Sheep) in Brecon: the English name for the street is Ship Street. Apparently it was known historically in English as Sheep Street (correctly), with sheep pronounced a lot like ship... When it eventually came to be formalised, the street name was based on the pronunciation, not the spelling/meaning, and was thus rendered as Ship Street... miles and miles from the sea! Translation blunder or quirk of history - you decide :-)

JonikW
02-01-2020, 07:38 PM
Any users with Welsh ancestry who've tested at FTDNA may be interested in this. I've just posted on the new thread about a Family Finder update. My new myOrigins map has its pin on Llanigon, which bizarrely is an area I share with both parents and the very place where some of my recent ancestors lived. Anyone else got anything Welsh and interesting to report about their own map?

spruithean
02-01-2020, 11:31 PM
Any users with Welsh ancestry who've tested at FTDNA may be interested in this. I've just posted on the new thread about a Family Finder update. My new myOrigins map has its pin on Llanigon, which bizarrely is an area I share with both parents and the very place where some of my recent ancestors lived. Anyone else got anything Welsh and interesting to report about their own map?


If you click that pin, does it bring up the name of someone you match with?

JonikW
02-01-2020, 11:46 PM
If you click that pin, does it bring up the name of someone you match with?

Yes, just been pointed in that direction on the FTDNA thread. It's a close match who turned out to have a letter from my late paternal grandmother in her collection. So the pin was a perfect choice, especially given my mother's ancestry in the same area. I've got no idea of the methodology so hope to hear more here.

Phoebe Watts
02-07-2020, 08:53 PM
A Welsh perspective on Vikings

https://blog.library.wales/vikings/

JonikW
02-13-2020, 12:32 AM
This is a nice piece on the old Italian cafes in Wales (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51448889). Joe's in the Mumbles is one that I remember as a student in Swansea and returned to recently. These guys founded something pretty special. It reminds me of the old Wimpy bars that seemed exotic and American when I was a kid.

Phoebe Watts
02-13-2020, 11:32 AM
This is a nice piece on the old Italian cafes in Wales (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51448889). Joe's in the Mumbles is one that I remember as a student in Swansea and returned to recently. These guys founded something pretty special. It reminds me of the old Wimpy bars that seemed exotic and American when I was a kid.

A relative of mine married into a Welsh Italian cafe family. They had arrived just after the 1901 census and by 1911 there were several Italian born teenage servants living with the family. I know that the children moved on to open their own cafes in nearby towns - perhaps the servants did too. Most of the cafes are long gone but the report on BBC Wales yesterday triggered lots of memories.

Webb
02-20-2020, 02:10 PM
I recently watched a YouTube video of Ioan Gruffudd speaking Welsh. I have heard Welsh being spoken before, but only a few words at a time, not a lengthy discourse. My first initial impression was that it sounded very similar to Latin. I even went back and watched a video of someone speaking Irish Gaelic, then watched the Ioan Gruffudd video and was surprised that they don't sound as similar as I had assumed they would sound.

Phoebe Watts
02-20-2020, 04:06 PM
I recently watched a YouTube video of Ioan Gruffudd speaking Welsh. I have heard Welsh being spoken before, but only a few words at a time, not a lengthy discourse. My first initial impression was that it sounded very similar to Latin. I even went back and watched a video of someone speaking Irish Gaelic, then watched the Ioan Gruffudd video and was surprised that they don't sound as similar as I had assumed they would sound.

Believe it or not, the languages that sound most like Welsh ( as spoken in North Wales) are from India and Pakistan.

spruithean
02-20-2020, 04:29 PM
With my experience of learning some Irish and Welsh I can definitely say that they don’t sound similar at all :lol:, however both can be difficult to spell for me haha.

Webb
02-20-2020, 04:34 PM
Believe it or not, the languages that sound most like Welsh ( as spoken in North Wales) are from India and Pakistan.

I have heard that before. It is pretty telling when you listen to the Vaughn twins in "The Englishman who went up a Hill but Came down a Mountain".

JonikW
02-20-2020, 09:29 PM
With my experience of learning some Irish and Welsh I can definitely say that they don’t sound similar at all :lol:, however both can be difficult to spell for me haha.

Must say that I don't agree with you there spruithean, apart from a few obvious differences in gutturals. I suppose we've all got our own ears when it comes to languages though.

JonikW
02-20-2020, 09:39 PM
Believe it or not, the languages that sound most like Welsh ( as spoken in North Wales) are from India and Pakistan.

I get what you're saying, but that's always struck me as purely a matter of intonation, which is indeed strikingly similar at times. The sounds are different, but I'd be happy if someone can demonstrate otherwise. It would be nice to establish a real link.

Phoebe Watts
02-20-2020, 10:46 PM
I get what you're saying, but that's always struck me as purely a matter of intonation, which is indeed strikingly similar at times. The sounds are different, but I'd be happy if someone can demonstrate otherwise. It would be nice to establish a real link

Yes, intonation. There is a shock of familiarity hearing both Cornish and Breton but the similarity of intonation is far more powerful.

JonikW
02-20-2020, 11:01 PM
Yes, intonation. There is a shock of familiarity hearing both Cornish and Breton but the similarity of intonation is far more powerful.

I agree Phoebe. Just to add: one thing that's long interested me is West Country accents and the obvious link between Cornwall, which you mention, and regions much further east. For example, I'm a Bristolian, and staying in Exeter, not far from Cornwall, tonight. How they talk here is close to how they talk in Cornwall and also in my own hometown and in, say Gloucester. What's that about in historical terms? On the wider Celtic spectrum, I'd suggest West Country English is closer to Irish English than it is to Welsh English, in accent terms at least. Beyond the accent, the West of England and South Wales obviously have dialect words in common, like the "daps" of my schooldays.

Phoebe Watts
03-25-2020, 02:50 PM
I agree Phoebe. Just to add: one thing that's long interested me is West Country accents and the obvious link between Cornwall, which you mention, and regions much further east. For example, I'm a Bristolian, and staying in Exeter, not far from Cornwall, tonight. How they talk here is close to how they talk in Cornwall and also in my own hometown and in, say Gloucester. What's that about in historical terms? On the wider Celtic spectrum, I'd suggest West Country English is closer to Irish English than it is to Welsh English, in accent terms at least. Beyond the accent, the West of England and South Wales obviously have dialect words in common, like the "daps" of my schooldays.

Sorry, I missed this.

Isn’t it the land between lands thing? Peoples living near the border have a lot in common.

I had imagined that Bristol and Gloucester played the same role in relation to their Celtic neighbours as Liverpool did. One of my family lines in Glamorgan ( near Neath) was really difficult to find - they were nowhere to be found in Glamorgan or the neighbouring counties. It was only when the census became available on-line that I found the link: my 2 x great grandfather aged about 20 in a lodging house in Bristol in 1841, and again, boarding with a family in Gloucester in 1851. He was married, living in Swansea in 1861. I have no idea how much time he spent in England; he was a boilermaker - a journeyman - so he might well have moved between south Wales and south-west England over a number of years. He was a Welsh speaker with family roots in west Wales so he might have picked up English dialect and accent.

Saetro
04-02-2020, 11:33 PM
From the end of the 1700s on, as mines failed in Cornwall, many people migrated from there to South Wales.
I can't track mine. They had patronymic surnames often identical with Welsh ones.
Now and again there are traces in wills - or old letters saying uncle/aunt so and so went to Wales.
(Some of my Cornish got as far as Australia before heading for South Wales!)
I don't think they changed Welsh pronunciation or cadence one jot.
Just perhaps they might have introduced a word or two, but otherwise they just blended in.

Phoebe Watts
04-03-2020, 02:20 PM
From the end of the 1700s on, as mines failed in Cornwall, many people migrated from there to South Wales.
I can't track mine. They had patronymic surnames often identical with Welsh ones.
Now and again there are traces in wills - or old letters saying uncle/aunt so and so went to Wales.
(Some of my Cornish got as far as Australia before heading for South Wales!)
I don't think they changed Welsh pronunciation or cadence one jot.
Just perhaps they might have introduced a word or two, but otherwise they just blended in.

That’s right, early migrants could blend in leaving only surname evidence. The descendants of my Derbyshire lead miner ancestor who moved to Flintshire spoke only Welsh within a couple of generations. As you say, it can difficult to distinguish between the Welsh and the Cornish by names. Religious affiliation can sometimes help. Wesleyan chapels in industrial areas of Wales might indicate a Cornish community.

rms2
04-03-2020, 07:27 PM
My surname is actually most common in Cornwall. Because of that fact, I expected to get some Cornish y-dna matches, but that never happened.

Instead, it turned out that I belong to a haplotype cluster that is decidedly Welsh.

msmarjoribanks
06-23-2020, 12:31 AM
I'm going to post this here, because there is a some Welsh-related content, and because I always check in hoping there are posts here.

We were talking in the FTDNA forum about Big-Y, and both rms2 and JonikW inspired me to try to track down some testers.

I have my matches pretty well sorted into groups (as an American with a good bit of colonial ancestry I have a ton of matches, including reasonably close ones). The goal here is to find matches on my Y-DNA line (surname, sigh, Jones) who I can approach about the benefits of Y testing. I only have the line back to Shropshire, but it could be Welsh and also border area so I'm not convinced it really matters what side of the current border they started on anyway. As I mentioned in the FTDNA thread, we have the line back into the early 1700s (a cousin of mine who is actually a reliable researcher has it back further but I need to check her sources).

My dad's closest Y match is predicted to match my dad about 77% in 8 generations, 95% in 12. (I realize these aren't super reliable.) They aren't surname matches, but that doesn't bother me because Jones, plus the match has a likely NPE in the early 1800s.

I went back to my prior efforts to find likely matches more distant than those of us descended from my gg-grandfather who came to the US. He had 4 brothers, but one died too young to have kids, two had only daughters, and the fourth was supposedly "lost in Australia." (This from cousins in the UK descended from the sisters, who had letters that my gg-grandfather wrote back to England after going to the US.) The man lost in Australia also had the (this will be a theme) unhelpful name of William Jones.

Going back to my ggg-grandfather's family, he had two brothers (John and Edmund). That also seems to have been the generation when everyone moved away from the family farm. My ggg-grandfather was the oldest, and moved to the London area, where he was a draper and opened a store (his wife's family were largely merchants, as well as long-time non-conformists -- I have many UK-based matches on her side, as well as Canada-based ones). His brother Edmund disappears, and since two sisters also went to Australia it wouldn't surprise me if he did as well, but I have no indication either way. His brother John Jones (sigh again) moved to Worcestershire, and is in later years listed as a labourer rather than a farmer or ag lab.

I have a pretty good family for John, but given that the UK is more protective of census records (back farther) than the US, plus the names and movement of the family, so that parish records aren't as helpful as they were for the earlier Shropshire research, I can't trace them forward very well.

So giving up on this for the time-being, I went back to my Ancestry matches and looked at "in common with" matches of my matches descended from my gg-grandfather on this line. This actually picked up a bunch of Jones, but when I looked at them most seemed to be on my Welsh side. (My gg-grandfather named Jones who immigrated from England married a Welsh woman surnamed Humphreys who had a mother, grandfather (obv), and two grandmothers also surnamed Jones.) And even so it's not clear that the Joneses I match who seem to be Welsh are descended directly from them, as they also have a bunch of other matching names (like Davies and Evans). I could probably sort this out and if I had unlimited money (I don't), I could try to start a personal Welsh Y DNA project, but right now this seems like it's probably just going to be a waiting game.

I'm not giving up on this yet -- I need to contact the other relatives with the same surname as the Y-DNA match, at least, but I'm interested in any advice plus maybe starting some chatting on this thread again.

msmarjoribanks
06-23-2020, 12:37 AM
That’s right, early migrants could blend in leaving only surname evidence. The descendants of my Derbyshire lead miner ancestor who moved to Flintshire spoke only Welsh within a couple of generations. As you say, it can difficult to distinguish between the Welsh and the Cornish by names. Religious affiliation can sometimes help. Wesleyan chapels in industrial areas of Wales might indicate a Cornish community.

Flintshire is where some of the descendants of my ancestors apparently moved. I've been trying to identify the connection with a Welsh Ancestry match, but he has his family mainly back to Flintshire (some went to England too), and mine left before they moved there (to the US in 1848 and 1851 from towns in Anglesey and Montgomeryshire, met and married in the US). If I figure it out it gets him back farther and tells me more about what happened to some of those in my family who did not emigrate. Unfortunately he's distant enough that we don't really have sufficient shared matches to narrow it down (Ancestry sometimes makes matches lower than they really are too). Thinking aloud, it might be worth contacting him and asking if he's interested in uploading to MyHeritage, where you get chromosomes and where my dad currently is.

Phoebe Watts
06-23-2020, 10:15 AM
Flintshire is where some of the descendants of my ancestors apparently moved. I've been trying to identify the connection with a Welsh Ancestry match, but he has his family mainly back to Flintshire (some went to England too), and mine left before they moved there (to the US in 1848 and 1851 from towns in Anglesey and Montgomeryshire, met and married in the US). If I figure it out it gets him back farther and tells me more about what happened to some of those in my family who did not emigrate. Unfortunately he's distant enough that we don't really have sufficient shared matches to narrow it down (Ancestry sometimes makes matches lower than they really are too). Thinking aloud, it might be worth contacting him and asking if he's interested in uploading to MyHeritage, where you get chromosomes and where my dad currently is.

MyHeritage is starting to be really useful for Welsh matches as more people have tested and uploaded, so it’s well worth asking your interesting Ancestry matches to upload.

In my experience, it isn’t really the chromosome browser that is most attractive, it’s the absence of Timber, which doesn’t work well on Welsh ancestry.

My best results are from working with matches whose ancestors emigrated. I solved a 3g grandfather brick wall through matches on Ancestry to the descendants of a brother who had emigrated in the 1850s. Luckily there are fewer generations on the American side so I can see their common matches. That research works both ways because I can show my American cousins where their emigrant ancestor was from. I wish I could persuade some of the Ancestry matches on this line to upload to MyHeritage so that I can place some of the UK based fourth and fifth cousins.

rms2
06-23-2020, 12:53 PM
msmarjoribanks,

Pardon me if you have posted this and I forgot or failed to see it, but have you done the Big Y-700 for your dad? It seems to me with a surname like Jones you need as much y-dna specificity as you can get, which would give you a way to sort the wheat from the chaff.

msmarjoribanks
06-23-2020, 05:54 PM
msmarjoribanks,

Pardon me if you have posted this and I forgot or failed to see it, but have you done the Big Y-700 for your dad? It seems to me with a surname like Jones you need as much y-dna specificity as you can get, which would give you a way to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Yes, he's done Big Y-700, and has only one match, the same guy who is the Y-111 match. For more detail: We have no Jones project matches (which isn't all that surprising given the diversity of Jones origins, of course). We have no Jones matches in Y-25 or higher (only one perfect Y-25 match, Y-37 match, or Y-67 match -- all the Big Y match). My dad has a bunch of Y-12 Jones matches, but that's because he has over 10,000 Y-12 matches (goes down to 26 Y-25 and 3 Y-67).

The Y-67 matches are closely related to each other, but GD 6 and 7 from my dad, and seem to share ancestry to Staffordshire, England (not far from Shropshire). The two other Y-37 matches also seem to be of English ancestry (one has another patronymic name, Nicholson, although not one I associate with Wales in that case), and the other has an English-seeming name and is in Australia.

Re his haplogroup, he's a perfect match for one of the WAMH (thus all the Y-12 matches), but after L21 is in DF63, which seems much less common than some of the other L21 subclades, and to have a variety of European branches, all of which split off in the quite distant past. It would be helpful to have a better sense of the age of the branch he shares with the one match in question, which could be quite closer.

My dad's closest match at YFull (who is also on the Ancestry Y tree, I believe) is of Hispanic background, but TMRCA is predicted at 3500 ybp, and the last subclade we share (R-A7811) predicted to have a formation date 4300 ybp, so that's not wildly helpful. There are French and Scottish branches of DF63 that are even more distant. I think DF63 is rare enough that it's not as well delineated with respect to more recent branches, which is one reason I'd love to recruit more likely testers.

The Ancestry match looks to be quite a bit closer than the YFull match. Exactly how close would likely help (at least as a start) answering some questions. His family is in Sussex in the early 1800s. (I have asked the Y-67 matches to test too, just because I think they could well be DF63 and find the Staffordshire location interesting, but got no responses -- this reminds me to try them again too. They, plus another likely match of theirs, also have a "son of" type name, again of more traditionally English origin.)

rms2
06-23-2020, 07:18 PM
He doesn't have a terminal SNP more refined than DF63?

msmarjoribanks
06-23-2020, 11:09 PM
He doesn't have a terminal SNP more refined than DF63?

He does, just figured it wouldn't mean much to anyone else.

DF63>BY592>A7810/A7811>FT44983>BY20328>BY74484 -- per FTDNA

YFull says that A7810/A7811 has a rounded age of 3100 ybp (1900-4700) -- that's where the closest match on YFull is.

FTDNA reports only one match (also BY74484), but shows the next two closest (not matches) as A7810/A7811>FT44983>BY20328>BY87194. Those two are from Venezuela and Cuba (oldest known Y-line), and I'm pretty sure the Cuban one is the same as the match at YFull (he turned up here at one point and said he was both).

YFull is assigning A7811 as the terminal now, but identifies the other SNPs, they must not have enough people to make them terminal SNPs yet.

This is what YFull shows for the distant match there (who does not show as a match at FTDNA): R-A7811 BY20331 * BY20332 * BY20328+4 SNPsformed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 3500 ybp

I hope this makes sense.

rms2
06-24-2020, 02:41 PM
Well, BY74484 gives you a way to exclude "matches" that are non-starters.

The Welsh patronymic system may affect your dad's results. He may get some fairly solid matches with different surnames.

Time will tell.

I'm not trying to knock YFull, but FTDNA is working wonders with its Haplotree these days. I'm not seeing a lot of good reasons to pester my guys into spending the extra fifty bucks on YFull.

SMJ
07-14-2021, 02:43 AM
I thought I would throw in a few thoughts on the difficulties of finding my Welsh borders ancestors in case my surname list helps others.

Quite often I find that information on the border areas is scarce, often considered not welsh enough by welsh academics and too far from London by the english too. But let's not forget this is the homeland of Owain Glyndwr.

AFAIK my Jones ancestors have been living on both sides of the English/Welsh border in Shropshire, Flintshire and Denbighshire for the last 250 years or so and I was born and raised in Shrewsbury, went to University in Bangor, and finished up living in Ystrad Mynach near Caerphilly in the 1980s, so have strong connections with Wales, although I now live in Gloucestershire.

A quick breakdown of surnames :-

Jones (Overton, Flintshire, Wales till 1830 then Shrewsbury, Shropshire, England)
Roberts (Overton)
Davies (Shrewsbury)
Thomas (LLansilin, Denbighshire, Wales)
Williams (Shrewsbury)
Griffiths (Shrewsbury)
Roberts (Selattyn, Shropshire)
Lloyd (LLedrod, Denbighshire, Wales)
Wilding (Shrewsbury)
Everall (Shrewsbury)
Oare (Shrewsbury)
Ellis (LLanfihangel-yng-ngwynfa, Montgomeryshire, Wales)

As you can see, nobody seems to have moved more than 15 miles or so from the border.

My maternal mtDNA is reasonably standard for a mother who originates from Leicestershire, K1c1.

The problem comes about when I look at my Y-DNA which is J-L26 (Living DNA test) a type not common on the Wales borders or in the Jones surname circles. So could it be a simple surname change (from a patronymic) or an NPE?

Even looking at a GedMatch run provides little Welshness (GedMatch Kit HB1137349)

K15v2 EUTest

Population (source) & Distance
1 North_German 8.36
2 South_Dutch 9.12
3 West_German 9.73
4 East_German 9.73
5 Danish 9.87
6 North_Dutch 9.96
7 Southwest_English 10.14
8 Southeast_English 10.5
9 Irish 10.87
10 Norwegian 10.89
11 Swedish 10.96
12 West_Scottish 11.42
13 Orcadian 12.05
14 North_Swedish 12.05
15 French 12.47
16 West_Norwegian 12.88
17 Hungarian 13.4
18 Austrian 13.67
19 Southwest_Finnish 14.1
20 Finnish 16.6

(Not many close matches to any known ancestry, maybe the Mid Wales/Shropshire data pool is too small. It was definitely under represented in the People of the British Isles study!)

Of course the link could be really old. Did an auxiliary during the Roman occupation in Viroconium or even Chester leave some DNA behind? Alternatively, could there be a Norman connection to the entourage of Roger de Montgomery. Although there is no proven link to Roger, a large number of Montgomery surnames seem to have J-L26 on FTDNA. I wonder if anyone would do a DNA test on Roger's grave in Shrewsbury Abbey?

The paper trail has now dried up and as none of my ancestors had illustrious careers (Ag Labs, Farmers, Plasterers and house painters) or became famous in the USA, things have come to a halt.

So I guess the question is 'Is there any other J-L26 Joneses out there?'

SMJ

Phoebe Watts
07-14-2021, 12:58 PM
I thought I would throw in a few thoughts on the difficulties of finding my Welsh borders ancestors in case my surname list helps others.

Quite often I find that information on the border areas is scarce, often considered not welsh enough by welsh academics and too far from London by the english too. But let's not forget this is the homeland of Owain Glyndwr.

AFAIK my Jones ancestors have been living on both sides of the English/Welsh border in Shropshire, Flintshire and Denbighshire for the last 250 years or so and I was born and raised in Shrewsbury, went to University in Bangor, and finished up living in Ystrad Mynach near Caerphilly in the 1980s, so have strong connections with Wales, although I now live in Gloucestershire.

A quick breakdown of surnames :-

Jones (Overton, Flintshire, Wales till 1830 then Shrewsbury, Shropshire, England)
Roberts (Overton)
Davies (Shrewsbury)
Thomas (LLansilin, Denbighshire, Wales)
Williams (Shrewsbury)
Griffiths (Shrewsbury)
Roberts (Selattyn, Shropshire)
Lloyd (LLedrod, Denbighshire, Wales)
Wilding (Shrewsbury)
Everall (Shrewsbury)
Oare (Shrewsbury)
Ellis (LLanfihangel-yng-ngwynfa, Montgomeryshire, Wales)

As you can see, nobody seems to have moved more than 15 miles or so from the border.

My maternal mtDNA is reasonably standard for a mother who originates from Leicestershire, K1c1.

The problem comes about when I look at my Y-DNA which is J-L26 (Living DNA test) a type not common on the Wales borders or in the Jones surname circles. So could it be a simple surname change (from a patronymic) or an NPE?

Even looking at a GedMatch run provides little Welshness (GedMatch Kit HB1137349)

K15v2 EUTest

Population (source) & Distance
1 North_German 8.36
2 South_Dutch 9.12
3 West_German 9.73
4 East_German 9.73
5 Danish 9.87
6 North_Dutch 9.96
7 Southwest_English 10.14
8 Southeast_English 10.5
9 Irish 10.87
10 Norwegian 10.89
11 Swedish 10.96
12 West_Scottish 11.42
13 Orcadian 12.05
14 North_Swedish 12.05
15 French 12.47
16 West_Norwegian 12.88
17 Hungarian 13.4
18 Austrian 13.67
19 Southwest_Finnish 14.1
20 Finnish 16.6

(Not many close matches to any known ancestry, maybe the Mid Wales/Shropshire data pool is too small. It was definitely under represented in the People of the British Isles study!)

Of course the link could be really old. Did an auxiliary during the Roman occupation in Viroconium or even Chester leave some DNA behind? Alternatively, could there be a Norman connection to the entourage of Roger de Montgomery. Although there is no proven link to Roger, a large number of Montgomery surnames seem to have J-L26 on FTDNA. I wonder if anyone would do a DNA test on Roger's grave in Shrewsbury Abbey?

The paper trail has now dried up and as none of my ancestors had illustrious careers (Ag Labs, Farmers, Plasterers and house painters) or became famous in the USA, things have come to a halt.

So I guess the question is 'Is there any other J-L26 Joneses out there?'

SMJ

I can’t answer your question but I do know that the calculators can’t reliably identify ‘Welshness’. This calculator returns North_German; Danish; Southeast_English; North_Dutch … for me. No sign of any Welsh at all. Some of the other calculators return Irish and Dutch.

LivingDNA or even AncestryDNA might give a reasonable estimate for Welsh ancestry. Some of the projects on here have better results for a small fee.

SMJ
07-14-2021, 10:25 PM
Thanks for the comments. The breakdown from LivingDNA gives a bit more detail shown below.

Latest LivingDNA 2021

Great Britain and Ireland 94.5%
Central England 25.9% (Expected Warwickshire, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire & Leicestershire) Maternal
Northern Ireland and Southwest Scotland 20.1% (Unexpected & connections not found)
East Anglia 13.6% (Expected Norfolk) Maternal
South Central England 7% (Expected Oxfordshire) Maternal
Northumbria 4.6% (Unexpected & connections not found)
South England 4.5% (Connections not found)
Devon 4.2% (Expected) Maternal
Cornwall 2.7% (Expected) Maternal
Northwest Scotland 2.6% (Unexpected & connections not found)
North Wales 2.6% (Expected Flintshire but seem low) Paternal
Lincolnshire 2.3% (Expected) Maternal
Southeast England 2.3% (Connections not found)
South Wales Border 2.2% (Expected Shropshire, Montgomeryshire Wales, Denbighshire Wales but seem too low) Paternal

Asia (South) 5.5%
Pashtun 5.5% (Unexpected but explained by J-L26 Y-DNA which is thought to originate from the Levant in the historical past)

But this is only linking to relatively modern populations, so some of the Northern Ireland and SW Scotland percentages could just as likely be from a common ancestor who never set foot in Ireland or Scotland but whose descendants are living there now, rather than a distant ancestor originating there.

SMJ

Phoebe Watts
07-15-2021, 10:50 AM
Welsh testers tend to have small allocations from the other Celtic countries and regions so I tend to ignore those. The Northern Ireland/Southwest Scotland allocation might well be significant.

msmarjoribanks
10-01-2021, 11:28 PM
I recently discovered two small matches (abt 25 cM) at Ancestry with people in Wales who match my sister and me and also each other. One has no tree, one has a private tree, but both have at least responded to my message, which is exciting.

I assumed they would be on my dad's side, as he is the one with more recent (1850) Welsh ancestry, but they were on my mom's side and using common matches I managed to narrow down very specifically on what line (I hope they are more closely related to each other and can narrow down their likely matching line). I also found a likely line that goes quite far back as I managed to place a number of other common matches who were related to each other (one of that line became an early Mormon and so has a number of descendants on Ancestry with good trees, and also on FamilySearch, as I cross checked). The confusing thing is that it goes pretty deep into colonial Virginia, so the match may well be misleadingly high and we may not be able to figure it out.

One of the matches is only half Welsh (half mostly Irish, the Welsh part is North Wales) so it's not clear that the ultimate matching ancestors, if we can find them, will be in Wales. The other match hasn't yet provided substantive information, but has said she will as soon as she can.

Phoebe Watts
10-02-2021, 12:57 PM
I recently discovered two small matches (abt 25 cM) at Ancestry with people in Wales who match my sister and me and also each other.

I smiled at the description of “small matches” for matches of about 25cM but it’s great that you are looking at matches in that range. I’m looking at connections to the early migrants to went to the north American slate quarries in the 1840s and 50s. Among my matches very few of their descendants match me at more than 15cM so it is a bit frustrating when a match says they don’t investigate matches under 50cM say.

My over 20cM list on Ancestry hit 500 the other day so I had a look to see where these supposedly “closer” matches were and whether I might be able to focus on a particular type of match to trace more of them.

About half the 500 have the Wales Genetic Community, a good indicator that they have recent Welsh ancestry. Another hundred or so have trees or shared matches that suggest relatively recent Welsh ancestry. Of the others, there are dozens that have no sign of Welsh ancestry in terms of ethnicity or trees and a bunch of American matches that look as if they have very distant Welsh ancestry - perhaps in colonial times.

I have probably mentioned that my furthest identified match descends from a black sheep emigrant who arrived in Virginia in 1757 - a cousin of my 5x great-grandfather according to published correspondence.

msmarjoribanks
10-02-2021, 05:59 PM
Yeah, a lot of us Americans are spoiled with the matches we get.

I currently will research any matches whose location and apparent ancestry is in countries where I am actively trying to get across the pond so long as in common matches suggest that it's a true match. Unfortunately I don't think enough people use the location feature on Ancestry, but if a Welsh or English or Irish match messaged me, I'd definitely look into it, no matter the size (I've worked on a Swedish match, but the fact they used the patronymic system so long makes that really hard and I haven't yet started working on tracing my family back within Sweden, since the current goal is to find where all my immigrant ancestors came from, and I've worked off and on on a group of English matches with no success yet).

I also research smaller matches when they are part of clusters I am trying to figure out, and have identified many of them. These Welsh matches have actually helped me identify some related clusters I've been spending a bunch of time on to try and figure out the Welsh connection. I have a Mary Ann Smith b. 1818 in Kentucky whom I hadn't worked on at all, since the name and date made tracing a female ancestor seem impossible, but I ended up trying to figure out if the connection went through her or her husband, and found her dad's will and her parents' marriage records and then connected a number of matches (12 cM - 53 cM) to a couple of her siblings.

I occasionally try to find a possible back in Wales match on my dad's side, but so far haven't had any luck, even though it seems like I should be able to find some traceable give the dates. I do have some matches that trace back to English ancestors in the 1700s, but they are in Canada (their family went to what is now Ontario in the 1820s and 1830s, my related family left England for the Western US -- although crossed the border through Canada -- in 1871).

msmarjoribanks
10-02-2021, 07:07 PM
Update on the matches -- the two Welsh matches are mother and daughter, so that at least pinpoints the side of the family it is on for the daughter. She's the one who was all from North Wales on one side (her mother's), so this does seem to be a Welsh match in some way.

JonikW
11-06-2021, 09:20 PM
I'd never even heard of this 30 minute film until I came across it while checking new arrivals in the BBC's Wales section on iPlayer yesterday. It's called "Borrowed Pasture" and is a deeply moving and gorgeously filmed documentary about two Polish men eking out a living on a Carmarthenshire farm in 1960. If that doesn't tempt you, Richard Burton is the narrator (I could happily listen to him reading the ingredients list on a box of cornflakes). The portrayal of two immigrants' bond to a tiny patch of Wales will remain with me for a long time. Here's the UK iPlayer link (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00gxvjj#:~:text=Richard%20Burton%20narrates%20thi s%20stunning,a%20derelict%20farm%20in%20Carmarthen shire.) for those who have it but I imagine it's available elsewhere too.

Saetro
11-10-2021, 07:31 PM
May have mentioned it before, but if you are after descriptions of Carmarthen rural life around then, Lynette Roberts' poems from the 40s (mainly) are good too.
"Collected Poems" ed Patrick McGuinness, Carcanet 2005
The editor has also compiled a book of her "Diaries, Letters and Recollections" same publisher, 2008
This has black and white photos as well.
Hard life.

Her parents were Welsh who had emigrated in earlier generations to Australia and she was born in Argentina where her father was running a railroad, so there is a bit of that too.
A distant cousin.

JonikW
01-08-2022, 12:24 AM
Sad that this once lively thread is so little used now. Here's a story (https://nation.cymru/culture/dylan-thomas-could-speak-welsh-according-to-the-1921-census/) on the late, great Dylan Thomas resulting from this week's 1921 census release that a few members might enjoy:

"Dylan Thomas could speak Welsh, according to the 1921 census published yesterday...

"...The census record indicates that DJ (David John) Thomas, who filled in and signed the census page, at least believed his son to be bilingual at the age of six, and his sister too."

Phoebe Watts
01-08-2022, 04:13 PM
Sad that this once lively thread is so little used now. Here's a story (https://nation.cymru/culture/dylan-thomas-could-speak-welsh-according-to-the-1921-census/) on the late, great Dylan Thomas resulting from this week's 1921 census release that a few members might enjoy:

"Dylan Thomas could speak Welsh, according to the 1921 census published yesterday...

"...The census record indicates that DJ (David John) Thomas, who filled in and signed the census page, at least believed his son to be bilingual at the age of six, and his sister too."

It is interesting confirmation of DJ Thomas’s attitude as well as of young Dylan’s grasp of the language. It was pretty clear that he had great familiarity with the Welsh language even if not across all the formal registers. This is consistent.

I had been thinking whether I urgently needed any 1921 entries for my own family tree but there aren’t many obvious gaps between 1911 and 1939. This reminds me that I do have a few lines where there would have been language change in the early 1900s. One great-great grandfather was from Brawdy and Roch - on the Landsker line in Pembrokeshire. His family moved to a less Welsh-speaking part of Pembrokeshire and he moved with some of his siblings and other relatives settled in the Swansea Valley. It has been interesting to see the language change in those who stayed in Pembrokeshire, those who stayed in the Swansea Valley and those who went further afield. I’ll look at the 1921 evidence in the future.

SMJ
01-09-2022, 03:02 PM
I could quite imagine a young Dylan being dragged around to Sunday School fêtes or Cerdd Dant as a youngster where Welsh was freely spoken. As with every language, there are varying degrees of competency and usage in the population where a second language is used.

I worked for 10 years in the 1980s in Cardiff, employed as a boom operator, sound editor and recordist. About 50% of my time was spent listening to welsh language content for transmission on welsh language radio & TV. When following a script or live discussion, it was essential have a grasp of what was being said and anticipate where to get the mic into the correct position for the next speaker. Most of the production direction was given in Welsh too, especially when producers started to panic in live situations. Also, it was quite common for after event gatherings to be exclusively welsh, so an ability to accept the offer of a tea, coffee or cake was required too.

According to my mother, when I was 5 or 6 I was quite capable of talking basic welsh. My next-door neighbours refused to speak english although living in England. Their family had moved from North Wales across the border to Shropshire. The only way to get my football back from their garden was to learn a little welsh. I have no memory of this though!

Would I consider myself to be a Welsh speaker or writer - no. But a Welsh listener with a working knowledge, well maybe.

JonikW
01-09-2022, 03:47 PM
I could quite imagine a young Dylan being dragged around to Sunday School fêtes or Cerdd Dant as a youngster where Welsh was freely spoken. As with every language, there are varying degrees of competency and usage in the population where a second language is used.

I worked for 10 years in the 1980s in Cardiff, employed as a boom operator, sound editor and recordist. About 50% of my time was spent listening to welsh language content for transmission on welsh language radio & TV. When following a script or live discussion, it was essential have a grasp of what was being said and anticipate where to get the mic into the correct position for the next speaker. Most of the production direction was given in Welsh too, especially when producers started to panic in live situations. Also, it was quite common for after event gatherings to be exclusively welsh, so an ability to accept the offer of a tea, coffee or cake was required too.

According to my mother, when I was 5 or 6 I was quite capable of talking basic welsh. My next-door neighbours refused to speak english although living in England. Their family had moved from North Wales across the border to Shropshire. The only way to get my football back from their garden was to learn a little welsh. I have no memory of this though!

Would I consider myself to be a Welsh speaker or writer - no. But a Welsh listener with a working knowledge, well maybe.

Really enjoyed reading that. I've mentioned before that I got off to a bit of a start in Welsh aged about eight when staying with my mum's friends near Aberystwyth. They only talked Welsh at home and taught me how to count to ten and use a few basic phrases. I even returned home armed with a cartoon-filled book on learning Welsh. While I've tried to dabble a bit from time to time since then, I haven't moved beyond what I knew aged eight.

If I'd ever got there, I'm sure my history obsession would have seen me try to study the Medieval and Old Welsh language, and texts such as Y Gododdin. I lived in Russia for seven years (my wife is a native speaker) and have enjoyed studying Old Church Slavonic at home (if you've got Russian you basically can pick it up at a working level with very little effort). Likewise I read a lot of Old Norse these days. It's astonishingly easy for an English speaker to get to a reasonable level there too, particularly if you've ever studied another Germanic language and can get hold of a few parallel texts to start you off plus Zoëga's dictionary. But Welsh would be a whole different ballgame and is likely to remain one of my few regrets in life. Gaelic is another one where I'd love to have a working knowledge but it would take a Herculean effort to get there.

Gwydion
01-09-2022, 05:17 PM
On the topic of Welsh, I've been learning Welsh more seriously lately despite being an American with perhaps no practical application of the language to be found. The reason for wanting to learn Welsh in these circumstances are manifold, but among the more important include being a Celtophile and therefore wanting to learn a Celtic language, finding Welsh aesthetically pleasing and attractive (like Tolkien), and having an interest in the Taliesin material, Arthuriana, Y Gododdin, etc.

But I will admit a central driving motivation is the discoveries of genealogy and DNA. Now I wouldn't say I am primarily Welsh, though I do have Welsh ancestors (including my mother's grandmother's family from Llangollen and various lines on my fathers side.) For me it is more the fact that my paternal lineage is almost certainly Celtic or Gallo-Brittonic if you will (continental Celtic and later British Celtic), specifically Cumbrian/Strathclyde British. Further by some strange coincidence the majority of my family lines come from historically Brittonic areas, such as Cumbria/Strathclyde and Wales mentioned but also a large amount of ancestors from old Dumnonia and a few from across the channel into Brittany and the Channel Islands. Unsurprisingly my parents and I plot closest to Southwest English/Welsh/Cornish/Bretons and Iron Age England on various autosomal calculators. Hence despite being an American of mixed British Isles ancestry, in terms of Y-DNA, paternal lineage, and closest genetic populations I am quite British Celtic and as such have an interest in the ancient tongue of my ancestors.

I've been using SaySomethingInWelsh and getting a decent foundation, wish me luck!

JonikW
01-09-2022, 06:14 PM
On the topic of Welsh, I've been learning Welsh more seriously lately despite being an American with perhaps no practical application of the language to be found. The reason for wanting to learn Welsh in these circumstances are manifold, but among the more important include being a Celtophile and therefore wanting to learn a Celtic language, finding Welsh aesthetically pleasing and attractive (like Tolkien), and having an interest in the Taliesin material, Arthuriana, Y Gododdin, etc.

But I will admit a central driving motivation is the discoveries of genealogy and DNA. Now I wouldn't say I am primarily Welsh, though I do have Welsh ancestors (including my mother's grandmother's family from Llangollen and various lines on my fathers side.) For me it is more the fact that my paternal lineage is almost certainly Celtic or Gallo-Brittonic if you will (continental Celtic and later British Celtic), specifically Cumbrian/Strathclyde British. Further by some strange coincidence the majority of my family lines come from historically Brittonic areas, such as Cumbria/Strathclyde and Wales mentioned but also a large amount of ancestors from old Dumnonia and a few from across the channel into Brittany and the Channel Islands. Unsurprisingly my parents and I plot closest to Southwest English/Welsh/Cornish/Bretons and Iron Age England on various autosomal calculators. Hence despite being an American of mixed British Isles ancestry, in terms of Y-DNA, paternal lineage, and closest genetic populations I am quite British Celtic and as such have an interest in the ancient tongue of my ancestors.

I've been using SaySomethingInWelsh and getting a decent foundation, wish me luck!

Good luck and please keep us posted on any observations, hurdles and successes! I hope you get to dabble in Y Gododdin one day. My last Welsh speaking ancestors were 19th century (Breconshire line on my dad's side). I feel the same ancestral call to study it as you but am not one of nature's linguists, sadly, and struggle with anything completely new to me.

You can see my mum's main ancestral area in my signature, and while it's very English-speaking today, it's intriguing that Welsh was probably still widely used there before the industrial revolution.

For example, the Greenhouse pub in Llantarnam still has a sign from 1719 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/timwolverson/15854410903/) outside showing two men smoking pipes at a table with a glass, candle and mug and the inscription 'Y Ty Gwyrdd 1719 Cwrw da/ a seidir i chwi/ Dewch y mewn/ chwi gewch y brofi' (Good beer and cider to you, come in and try)."

And in Llanvair Discoed the old court house bears this inscription: "ER : I : FOD : YN : ING : MAEN : DDA : YN : WNG : 1635". There's an attempt to translate it here (https://coflein.gov.uk/en/site/36724/).

SMJ
01-09-2022, 07:09 PM
I'm guessing the welsh cartoon book was 'Welsh is Fun' by Heini Gruffudd. Heini used to work occasionally in the BBC Wales research department in Cardiff.

Fate is always a case of 'what ifs' and decisions that at the time seem quite minor, but in the long-run have quite a dramatic impact.

My father always taught me the correct pronunciation and meaning of welsh place names and the nouns for common objects when travelling through Wales from Shrewsbury. Although he didn't speak welsh, he worked for the welsh branch of the Forestry Commission and needed a working knowledge to do his job. Also, I guess that a few people in the family from two generations back were fluent welsh, my great aunt always used to hum or sing what I recognise now as welsh language rhymes to herself when doing the housework for instance.

For historical reasons, a lot of government administrative bodies were located in Shrewsbury, mainly because road and rail communication between north and south wales was easier through Shrewsbury than up and down the centre. As Cardiff became more prominent politically in the 1950s & 60s, it was decided to move the Forestry Commission to Aberystwyth. On a simple toss of a coin my father decided to transfer to another Civil Service department and stay in Shrewsbury rather than disrupt my education and move the family to Aberystwyth (I was 10 at the time). If I had of moved I would have been educated in welsh, as it was I stayed in England at an English school.

However, I did finish up going to Bangor University in North Wales, which is considered to be very pro welsh language, but I never became proficient in welsh.

JonikW
01-09-2022, 07:27 PM
I'm guessing the welsh cartoon book was 'Welsh is Fun' by Heini Gruffudd. Heini used to work occasionally in the BBC Wales research department in Cardiff.

Fate is always a case of 'what ifs' and decisions that at the time seem quite minor, but in the long-run have quite a dramatic impact.

My father always taught me the correct pronunciation and meaning of welsh place names and the nouns for common objects when travelling through Wales from Shrewsbury. Although he didn't speak welsh, he worked for the welsh branch of the Forestry Commission and needed a working knowledge to do his job. Also, I guess that a few people in the family from two generations back were fluent welsh, my great aunt always used to hum or sing what I recognise now as welsh language rhymes to herself when doing the housework for instance.

For historical reasons, a lot of government administrative bodies were located in Shrewsbury, mainly because road and rail communication between north and south wales was easier through Shrewsbury than up and down the centre. As Cardiff became more prominent politically in the 1950s & 60s, it was decided to move the Forestry Commission to Aberystwyth. On a simple toss of a coin my father decided to transfer to another Civil Service department and stay in Shrewsbury rather than disrupt my education and move the family to Aberystwyth (I was 10 at the time). If I had of moved I would have been educated in welsh, as it was I stayed in England at an English school.

However, I did finish up going to Bangor University in North Wales, which is considered to be very pro welsh language, but I never became proficient in welsh.

Thanks for that SMJ and that is indeed the book. It got chucked away when we moved house but I've never forgotten those distinctive cartoons and have often wondered what it was. I also had a scratchy 45 with phrases such as "Yn y tŷ", and a few bits of that have stayed with me.

Like you, I went to the University of Wales as it was then, but at my branch of Swansea (I really should say Abertawe here) the only thing that was bilingual was my degree certificate.

Cunobelinus_T
01-10-2022, 11:26 PM
Going to have to dig out my Heini Gruffudd books now! My first proper intro to Welsh (in Australia in the ‘90s) was an old 1967 edition of Teach Yourself Welsh which was full-blown formal written Welsh (closer to Y Beibl Cymraeg than the English-Welsh hybrid that seems to be my ceiling level of proficiency!) and would nowadays undoubtedly cause some mirth and a little bafflement if I spoke it to my first-language Welsh partner… Heini’s books on the other hand were a whole lot less po-faced!

SMJ
01-11-2022, 01:53 AM
One of the audio productions I worked on was a BBC Wales series called 'Catchphrase' which was a more formal approach to learning welsh. The idea was to take a non-welsh speaking presenter and get them from complete beginner to (hopefully) a competent speaker. The teaching was the formal speak and response style which after editing produced a series of radio programmes with accompanying cassette tapes and a book.

I can always remember the shocked look on the face of one of the traditional teachers when they came across the cartoon of a bikini wearing girl in the pages of 'Welsh is fun" with the speech bubble 'mae hi'n bert!' - She is pretty. Not the sort of thing that Catchphrase would cover!

The same cartoon and book style was continued into 'Irish is fun' and 'Cornish is fun' all published by Y Lolfa, and very successful too.

Cunobelinus_T
01-12-2022, 12:37 AM
I just dug out Heini Gruffudd’s Welcome to Welsh (first published 1984) in which there’s an ongoing photo-comic strip narrative spread through the book. I’m guessing the scene in which Sian is offering the visiting brush salesman Dai’s half finished potel o win while Dai’s out on night shift (tip of the iceberg there, btw!) wouldn’t have made it onto Catchphrase - or into the 1967 Teach Yourself Welsh - either! One suspects that Heini has quite a down to earth sense of humour!

Y Lolfa are still publishing, and their more recent Street Welsh (also by Heini) is a handy little intro to everyday words, phrases, and a little bit of grammar. Always good to know when good things persist in this world!

Kathlingram
04-07-2022, 10:03 PM
I was looking around for where to post this.. I know I have private messages to some of you.. I have finally figured out who my paternal biological grandfather was. Pretty sure Dad did not know this..Until I tested at AncestryDNA I did not realize how Welsh I was Only 60 matches at 23andme but At AncestryDNA I have over 600 matches.. My largest matches were 2-3rd cousins but lots of them.
So a month or so ago I got a first cousin 1R whose Grandfather was from the llyn Peninsula like most of mine and was a Merchant Marine who eventually married a young girl from Delaware. My grandmother was also from DE ..he married her 2 years after my father was born.
Happily at least 4 good cousin helped me figure some of it out.. One is better with DNA and the other better with Pedigrees My Sister is 38% Welsh, I am about 34% and the first cousin who is still very puzzled is 41%
My Grandfather is Robert Own Jones ( deceased in SC 1963)
Kathleen

msmarjoribanks
04-18-2022, 04:09 AM
My known ancestors who came to the US seem to have been Welsh-speaking (they came around 1850), and there's a funny bit in a local history of the largely Welsh county in Wisconsin about a rumor that the local Indians had a Welsh-derived language. I was using Duolingo for a while last year for Welsh (I had previously used it for German), and was interested in the number of apparent English loan words. I was sad that Rosetta Stone (which I have a subscription to) doesn't seem to have Welsh.

Phoebe Watts
04-18-2022, 02:29 PM
My known ancestors who came to the US seem to have been Welsh-speaking (they came around 1850), and there's a funny bit in a local history of the largely Welsh county in Wisconsin about a rumor that the local Indians had a Welsh-derived language. I was using Duolingo for a while last year for Welsh (I had previously used it for German), and was interested in the number of apparent English loan words. I was sad that Rosetta Stone (which I have a subscription to) doesn't seem to have Welsh.

The story of Prince Madog’s voyage to America was recorded in a fifteenth century poem. The assumption was that Madog lived in the twelfth century. Apparently the Tudor kings used the story to claim rights over America because the Welsh were there before Columbus😀. The rumours of the Welsh speaking tribe were connected to that tale and there were several attempts to find them.

I found a reference in a Welsh newspaper published in North America to a cousin of my 3x great-grandfather. He - the cousin- was a black-sheep emigrant who settled in Dodgeville Wisconsin before moving on to California in the gold rush leaving his wife and family in Dodgeville. According to the newspaper, he joined one of these explorations.

msmarjoribanks
04-21-2022, 01:43 AM
I may have posted about this a while back, but I have a couple of small Welsh matches on my mom's side (a mother and daughter who live in Wales and have all their relevant ancestry there). They are (from US perspectives) small matches -- 24 cM. Based on common matches I identified one possible connection as a Smith family, and they thought that seemed the most likely given their own ancestry of the families I identified as possibles. I've finally (due to other matches) started working on that family (I was reluctant to take on Smith research) and found more indication that it is probably that side, but also find that I am currently dead-ended on one ancestor (b. 1774 in VA, died in IL), but that many people give his father (although without attribution, sigh) to a man who is sometimes identified as born in 1740 in Wales, sometimes as 1740 in VA (and when VA they sometimes give a more extensive ancestry within colonial America).

The maybe father's alleged wife explains a connection to a group of matches (from various children) also on that side -- so many because close relatives of theirs became early Mormon pioneers. Thus, I am suspecting -- although not yet with sufficient evidence -- that the alleged father was born in Wales and is related to the people in question. I am working on finding more evidence (either yes or no).

Baltimore1937
04-24-2022, 01:40 AM
Ancestry gives me 6% Welsh, but I don't know of a recent Welsh ancestor. Danial Boone may be my 1st cousin six times removed. His mother's line (Morgan) was Welsh. I say may be because I'm a little uneasy with a particular Quaker connection back there in Pennsylvania. But it may really be valid.

sktibo
04-30-2022, 04:21 PM
My known ancestors who came to the US seem to have been Welsh-speaking (they came around 1850), and there's a funny bit in a local history of the largely Welsh county in Wisconsin about a rumor that the local Indians had a Welsh-derived language. I was using Duolingo for a while last year for Welsh (I had previously used it for German), and was interested in the number of apparent English loan words. I was sad that Rosetta Stone (which I have a subscription to) doesn't seem to have Welsh.

Try Glossika. Welsh is offered for free on it as Glossika wishes to support minority and endangered languages.
Glossika has high quality native speaker recordings and you can use it passively on listening mode while you do monotonous tasks. I really like it. Personally, I can't stand duolingo or any program like it.
I think the only downside to Glossika is the way-too-high subscription cost, which isn't an issue if you're using it for Welsh.

There's also a fantastic audio course called "Say Something in Welsh" of which you can access some lessons in the older versions for free, though I don't think the subscription cost they ask is too bad.

Cancel that Rosetta Stone subscription! There's better stuff out there!

Kathlingram
05-03-2022, 06:54 PM
I was looking around for where to post this.. I know I have private messages to some of you.. I have finally figured out who my paternal biological grandfather was. Pretty sure Dad did not know this..Until I tested at AncestryDNA I did not realize how Welsh I was Only 60 matches at 23andme but At AncestryDNA I have over 600 matches.. My largest matches were 2-3rd cousins but lots of them.
So a month or so ago I got a first cousin 1R whose Grandfather was from the llyn Peninsula like most of mine and was a Merchant Marine who eventually married a young girl from Delaware. My grandmother was also from DE ..he married her 2 years after my father was born.
Happily at least 4 good cousin helped me figure some of it out.. One is better with DNA and the other better with Pedigrees My Sister is 38% Welsh, I am about 34% and the first cousin who is still very puzzled is 41%
My Grandfather is Robert Own Jones ( deceased in SC 1963)
Kathleen

I was again looking around for where to post this..I am still SOOOO thrilled at now knowing who my Bio Welsh Grandfather was.. I just REALIZED that I added about 25% more ancestors with this knowledge? A few of you helped me to understand my Welsh % and 5 close Welsh matches (Still in Wales) helped me along the way..
Until I knew his name ( a 1/2 1st Cousin tested) my Welsh helpers were a bit off BUT 2 weeks ago a 4th cousin who is a GP in Wales sent me who the intervening DNA matches were.. between she and I.. Now my original close cousin helpers are being connected in the same way ..( our "common " ancestors I'm sure are triple and quadruple cousins at the very least. My first couple helpers are 3rd cousins. My tree now has 5795 people.. Love it!! Kathleen

Kathlingram
05-09-2022, 01:05 PM
Until I knew his name ( a 1/2 1st Cousin tested) my Welsh helpers were a bit off BUT 2 weeks ago a 4th cousin who is a GP in Wales sent me who the intervening DNA matches were.. between she and I.. Now my original close cousin helpers are being connected in the same way ..( our "common " ancestors I'm sure are triple and quadruple cousins at the very least. My first couple helpers are 3rd cousins. My tree now has 5795 people.. Love it!! Kathleen[/QUOTE]

So with this in mind..does anyone besides me have a clue as to how AncestryDNA's software determines who is a "Common Ancestor"? My 4-5 closest matches have multiple segments .. the closest (besides my 1/2 first cousin) has 3 large segments and the next person has 2 segments also large.. other large matches have been linked to a "Common Ancestor"..pretty accurately.. the one I'm waiting for is this:" 64 cM across 3 segments Unweighted shared DNA: 86 cM Longest segment: 52 cM"
My theory is that the software cannot determine one common ancestor in that case?
I will say when they DO identify the match usually is NOT 3rd cousin but 4th or 4th 1R
update is that my tree is now 5,941 I'm playing the game ;)
..

Phoebe Watts
05-09-2022, 04:40 PM
So with this in mind..does anyone besides me have a clue as to how AncestryDNA's software determines who is a "Common Ancestor"? My 4-5 closest matches have multiple segments .. the closest (besides my 1/2 first cousin) has 3 large segments and the next person has 2 segments also large.. other large matches have been linked to a "Common Ancestor"..pretty accurately.. the one I'm waiting for is this:" 64 cM across 3 segments Unweighted shared DNA: 86 cM Longest segment: 52 cM"
My theory is that the software cannot determine one common ancestor in that case?
I will say when they DO identify the match usually is NOT 3rd cousin but 4th or 4th 1R
update is that my tree is now 5,941 I'm playing the game ;)
..

Common ancestor hints are driven by information in trees and ThruLines will provide more than one hint when it finds information for multiple connections. I have a few matches with two correct hints but they depend on the information being in my tree and/or another detailed tree.. Don’t forget that TIMBER tends to overdo things with Welsh testers so it can be difficult to gauge whether there are multiple connections.

Kathlingram
05-09-2022, 05:33 PM
Common ancestor hints are driven by information in trees and ThruLines will provide more than one hint when it finds information for multiple connections. I have a few matches with two correct hints but they depend on the information being in my tree and/or another detailed tree.. Don’t forget that TIMBER tends to overdo things with Welsh testers so it can be difficult to gauge whether there are multiple connections.

Thanks Phoebe! Yes some of mine with two segments of DNA have gotten a Common Ancestor .. the two that have not yet, the first one a man had helped me with the whole thing.He had Even Jones , his father and his son ( a very popular man for people Great GF) and assured me that was how I matched.. now realize he really went with his known Great, 2nd Great etc. NOT whether or not the DNA matched.. another man was much better at DNA and would rearrange things..
Both felt I matched on a Jones line but apparently it was the wrong one.
When My Grandfather's other granddaughter's match appeared I waited awhile to connect it.. They both helped me with his pedigree which was not well documented but we got there.. When I connected the Bio Grandfather his parents and finally his greats.. the matches "fell off" lol .. Most of them now have other "Common Ancestor" matches that I assume gives SOME deference to the DNA..
My best Helper after that is a 4th cousin once removed who was a GP in Wales.. now lives maybe in UK but she does understand the genetics.. I put her link to ME in my Tree ( and vice versa) and it all works..
So I just keep waiting.. maybe once a week an Ancestor pops up "out of the blue" BUT they are always known cousin matches that became reestablished.. One of them had JUST discovered that this ancestor existed.. "Salmon Jones" is one and Salmon Thomas is another.. they seem to be related and one Salmon Jones names his son Salmon Thomas... It's a lot to learn

Edit here: Since I wrote that I went back and see 2 of the Salmon's are duplicates.. REALLY a lot to learn!

Kathlingram
05-18-2022, 04:58 PM
I am learning to be careful not to mix up early Welsh ancestors with the new ones from the Bio Grandfather..
Either my Ancestry DNA tree connected them or a clicked an update incorrectly
It threw a lot of people up for query.. and I had a lot of things to fix.. SOME of which happened because one of my Welsh "helpers" had assisted me early on to try to figure out the Grandfather.. their assessment of my Great Grandfathers was incorrect .. they DO tie loosely in. He is great with trees but not with DNA matches
Also I noticed that "Welsh Community" matches not tagged as such if not very close to 27%
Kathy Ingram

Phoebe Watts
05-20-2022, 12:47 PM
I am learning to be careful not to mix up early Welsh ancestors with the new ones from the Bio Grandfather..
Either my Ancestry DNA tree connected them or a clicked an update incorrectly
It threw a lot of people up for query.. and I had a lot of things to fix.. SOME of which happened because one of my Welsh "helpers" had assisted me early on to try to figure out the Grandfather.. their assessment of my Great Grandfathers was incorrect .. they DO tie loosely in. He is great with trees but not with DNA matches
Also I noticed that "Welsh Community" matches not tagged as such if not very close to 27%
Kathy Ingram

I think it can be useful to use % Wales ethnicity and Wales community to help predict relationships. But they are different measures and it is difficult to set thresholds. Also results vary depending on people’s backgrounds. So while I still suggest that an American with Wales community will have at least a Welsh grandparent or great-grandparent there are outliers. A quick look at my match list identified someone with 40% Wales ethnicily and no Wales community and several Mormon matches with 15% Wales ethnicity and Wales community.

Kathlingram
05-20-2022, 05:17 PM
I am learning to be careful not to mix up early Welsh ancestors with the new ones from the Bio Grandfather..
Either my Ancestry DNA tree connected them or a clicked an update incorrectly
It threw a lot of people up for query.. and I had a lot of things to fix.. SOME of which happened because one of my Welsh "helpers" had assisted me early on to try to figure out the Grandfather.. their assessment of my Great Grandfathers was incorrect .. they DO tie loosely in. He is great with trees but not with DNA matches
Also I noticed that "Welsh Community" matches not tagged as such if not very close to 27%
Kathy Ingram

Well last night my sister's Thrulines was very garbled up.. the early Delaware Welsh had 'New Ancestors" who were NOT new,, so they were duplicated.. One line had my newly learned Bio Grandfather connected directly to a Delaware ancestor
Ancestry had a "Survey " connected so I gave some negative feed back and explained directly what was happening.. An hour later it was all corrected.. No Delaware Ancestors are "new"
Wow! I think they somehow reset Thrulines for my sister's account .. now there is a "??" which when clicked shows this:"Getting Started with ThruLines® View Intro
So I will be checking this.. Hoping it says how to correct
Kathy

msmarjoribanks
05-21-2022, 09:33 PM
I've found it seems much less likely to get a Welsh genetic community than, say, an Irish one. It must have to do with number of testers or how often people put Welsh ancestry in their trees. My dad has a Welsh great-grandparent (also some Welsh ancestry on the other side, but much farther back), and yet doesn't get one. His Welsh g-grandmother married a man from England with only half of his ancestry from Shropshire (one of my Jones families), and the rest from Essex, and yet my dad's only non US GC is Midlands.

I know many Americans who get Irish GCs despite their Irish ancestors coming to the US around the same time as my most recent Welsh ancestors. It could be that they intermarried for a longer period of time, I suppose, if living in largely Irish areas of certain cities.

msmarjoribanks
05-21-2022, 09:41 PM
On other Welsh matters, I decided to work on my mom's closest unknown MyHeritage match and ended up solving a mystery (who was my match's paternal grandfather). Because she's really into genealogy and wanted to know the answer, she was actually really helpful in sharing information. I figured out who the unknown grandfather was and accidentally confirmed that he is a descendant of that possibly Welsh/possibly Virginian Smith I mentioned upthread, and our shared matches are on that side, and the side of the Welsh mother and daughter, so I suspect again that's the link. But I still can't figure out exactly how I am related to him, although I know how many shared matches are. (I need to actually seriously set out to do the research.)

Anyway, she decided to get her brother (a male line descendant of the possible Welsh immigrant) YDNA tested, so that will be interesting.

Phoebe Watts
05-23-2022, 09:50 AM
I've found it seems much less likely to get a Welsh genetic community than, say, an Irish one. It must have to do with number of testers or how often people put Welsh ancestry in their trees. My dad has a Welsh great-grandparent (also some Welsh ancestry on the other side, but much farther back), and yet doesn't get one. His Welsh g-grandmother married a man from England with only half of his ancestry from Shropshire (one of my Jones families), and the rest from Essex, and yet my dad's only non US GC is Midlands.

I know many Americans who get Irish GCs despite their Irish ancestors coming to the US around the same time as my most recent Welsh ancestors. It could be that they intermarried for a longer period of time, I suppose, if living in largely Irish areas of certain cities.

You are right that it is difficult to compare Wales and Ireland. The populations are different as is the scale of the diaspora. And differing levels of continuing intermarriage is a factor too.

The current population of the island of Ireland is a little over twice the population of Wales. Back in 1841 it was eight times the population of Wales. It used to be possible to compare the numbers in the Ireland communities with the numbers in the Wales community. I can’t see the size of the Ireland communities but I guess it is well into the millions. By contrast the Wales community is still only 236k. Even the number of communities is skewed: 94 for Ireland and 5 for Wales.

I don’t think I expected the suggestion that “an American with the Wales community will have at least a Welsh grandparent or great-grandparent” to translate to people with Welsh grandparents scoring the Wales community. But I think this is less likely in families with ancestry in sparsely populated areas of mid Wales close to the English border. Interestingly, the maps of the Wales communities are quite vague in these areas.

Kathlingram
05-23-2022, 11:47 PM
I've found it seems much less likely to get a Welsh genetic community than, say, an Irish one. It must have to do with number of testers or how often people put Welsh ancestry in their trees. My dad has a Welsh great-grandparent (also some Welsh ancestry on the other side, but much farther back), and yet doesn't get one. His Welsh g-grandmother married a man from England with only half of his ancestry from Shropshire (one of my Jones families), and the rest from Essex, and yet my dad's only non US GC is Midlands.

I know many Americans who get Irish GCs despite their Irish ancestors coming to the US around the same time as my most recent Welsh ancestors. It could be that they intermarried for a longer period of time, I suppose, if living in largely Irish areas of certain cities.

Well my Sister and I have more Irish communities than Welsh but I think you are correct. I was stunned at first with the Welsh communities ( I knew I had early US Welsh but--) Ireland though has areas that are densely populated , probably almost as much as the llyn peninsula in Wales where all of mine are from ..
The majority of my Ireland Communities is West/North West Donegal.. they have been pretty isolated with the Sea on the West ,the border with North Ireland in the North and mountains one the east . jokes from cousins is that they had to leave Donegal and go to Philadelphia to be able to have a date ( get married lol).. I have Ancestors from Tipperary Carlow and Cork. The Beara Peninsula is high for my sister ..certain families..

msmarjoribanks
06-14-2022, 01:32 AM
I may have posted about this a while back, but I have a couple of small Welsh matches on my mom's side (a mother and daughter who live in Wales and have all their relevant ancestry there). They are (from US perspectives) small matches -- 24 cM. Based on common matches I identified one possible connection as a Smith family, and they thought that seemed the most likely given their own ancestry of the families I identified as possibles. I've finally (due to other matches) started working on that family (I was reluctant to take on Smith research) and found more indication that it is probably that side, but also find that I am currently dead-ended on one ancestor (b. 1774 in VA, died in IL), but that many people give his father (although without attribution, sigh) to a man who is sometimes identified as born in 1740 in Wales, sometimes as 1740 in VA (and when VA they sometimes give a more extensive ancestry within colonial America).

The maybe father's alleged wife explains a connection to a group of matches (from various children) also on that side -- so many because close relatives of theirs became early Mormon pioneers. Thus, I am suspecting -- although not yet with sufficient evidence -- that the alleged father was born in Wales and is related to the people in question. I am working on finding more evidence (either yes or no).

Follow-up on this -- I found some more evidence that I am descended from the man born 1740ish, likely in Wales, although I still need some work to confirm that's where he was born. (It's mentioned in a bunch of mid 1800s US sources involving write-ups of grandchildren or g-grandchildren, and of course invariably they say he was from Wales, England.) I'm also swayed by the fact that this line does seem the most likely connection to the Welsh matches I mentioned before, although that far back it's hard to pin down, of course.

Mainly updating this to say my distant cousin on the same line tested and it confirmed that he is on this line. Based on some reasonably close matches who did more testing, it seems to be R-DF21, and probably subclade A935 (which seems to go back about 1200-1400 years from what I see on YFull, I think). The matches that don't seem likely to be connected to the immediate family are mostly Irish. No obvious Welsh matches, but with a name like Smith, who knows where the family was originally from.

Kathlingram
06-20-2022, 04:17 PM
My update here is that I currently have upwards of 625 Welsh cousin matches at Ancestry.. I look at the % of Welsh first.. I have 27% and my Sister has 38% and the 1/2 first cousin who shares the Biological Grandfather has 36% ( I will add my sister has a bit more in our early Delaware Welsh Tract.. I do think they underestimated me.. the last update was 34% and my sister's stayed exactly the same.. My grandson's estimate is 8% and was 12% .
I think my Scottish is way too high as I mentioned before my only Scots are the Donegal and Tyrone Irish who went there for work and stayed.. it says 18% but could be 1-25% !!

ALL of our Welsh is paternal from my father's father who surely was close to 100% .. I am working hard on my tree and the cousins ... some very skilled Welsh have helped me.. One is a retired MD and she matches me and others match me on both of their parents.. Surprise!!
I'm hoping my tree doesn't explode before I can start taking some people off.. I do have Thulines shared with three different ancestors with 10-12 matches one more than one ancestor.. It's clear in some cases where the DNA originated
Kathleen

msmarjoribanks
07-03-2022, 09:43 AM
Update: my Welsh match says she has looked at common matches and thinks we are related on a Welsh line so is skeptical of the Smith man being the common ancestor. I am going to wait for more information. I am also researching the Smith man and that line.

msmarjoribanks
07-03-2022, 09:44 AM
(FTDNA has added a tool called Discover. Has anyone else used it?)

JMcB
07-03-2022, 02:35 PM
(FTDNA has added a tool called Discover. Has anyone else used it?)

There’s a recent thread about it here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26338-FTDNA-ancient-DNA-documented&p=858329&viewfull=1#post858329

and some have been posting their results on this thread. Starting on page two:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26337-Big-Y-How-old-is-your-final-haplogroup&p=858231&viewfull=1#post858231

Kathlingram
07-03-2022, 06:45 PM
50368
I am Admin at Faunt Fant Group at FTDNA.. my first cousin tested in 2004-5 from Geographic study
This is use.. Anglo-Irish in Shropshire Limerick Kildare working for the Norman kings.. That is our 13C castle in the picture

Kathlingram
07-03-2022, 06:50 PM
We have worked ]with the YDNA since 2004-5 with the larger I2a group also..

We are told that 40% of Sardinia males are connected to this YDNA..ours is a bit different.. but ALL came after the last Ice Age

I said this on our Group page: "Because someone tested here and maybe at the I2a DNA group AND in Sardinia with their 2002 + testers we know are one group of men who can be estimated as connected ancestrally back 3,550 years or 1850 years BCE.. the Bronze Age..Thanks Everyone!

My first cousin, Mom's nephew was who tested .

msmarjoribanks
07-04-2022, 05:01 PM
Update: my Welsh match says she has looked at common matches and thinks we are related on a Welsh line so is skeptical of the Smith man being the common ancestor. I am going to wait for more information. I am also researching the Smith man and that line.

I'm curious to see what she has to say, as my Smith line has an apparently Insular Celt YDNA, so I'm not that bothered by the surname, but if she thinks there are more likely connections I am interested. So far my only Welsh connection on that line is the Jarvis Smith supposedly born in Wales.

SMJ
08-22-2022, 02:00 PM
Thoughts on Welsh/English migration.

Looking back through my family history there is a general trend from the 1800s onwards of people moving from the Welsh side of the border towards England.

The 19th and early 20th Century was a time of change in Wales with a population shift towards the South Wales valleys and the industrial heartlands of the English Midlands and Merseyside.

But there was another change in Welsh rural areas too, influenced by the various Methodist revival movements based around non-conformist chapels. Congregations that attended the were predominantly Welsh speakers and the local society revolved around the influence of the ‘chapel’ way beyond the act of simply going to church.

Now, if you were Welsh speaking with religious beliefs in line with The Church of England (or the future Church in Wales) or indeed a Roman Catholic, would this change in society be enough for you to consider upping sticks and travelling the few miles into England, possibly losing the Welsh language on the way within a few generations.

Looking through my Births, Deaths and Marriages, all of those found so far are registered with C of E parish churches in Wales and all the ties are broken with Wales by the 1850s with the family living in Shrewsbury, Oswestry and Montford and continuing to be C of E. There seems to be very little evidence of following Non-Conformist religion in the family at the time.

I know a lot of people registered with the ‘traditional’ parish churches during this period as they were unable to do so in a non-conformist church at the time. So maybe some family members were NC?

Has anyone else had similar experiences or thoughts?

Phoebe Watts
08-23-2022, 02:59 PM
Thoughts on Welsh/English migration.

Looking back through my family history there is a general trend from the 1800s onwards of people moving from the Welsh side of the border towards England.

The 19th and early 20th Century was a time of change in Wales with a population shift towards the South Wales valleys and the industrial heartlands of the English Midlands and Merseyside.

But there was another change in Welsh rural areas too, influenced by the various Methodist revival movements based around non-conformist chapels. Congregations that attended the were predominantly Welsh speakers and the local society revolved around the influence of the ‘chapel’ way beyond the act of simply going to church.

Now, if you were Welsh speaking with religious beliefs in line with The Church of England (or the future Church in Wales) or indeed a Roman Catholic, would this change in society be enough for you to consider upping sticks and travelling the few miles into England, possibly losing the Welsh language on the way within a few generations.

Looking through my Births, Deaths and Marriages, all of those found so far are registered with C of E parish churches in Wales and all the ties are broken with Wales by the 1850s with the family living in Shrewsbury, Oswestry and Montford and continuing to be C of E. There seems to be very little evidence of following Non-Conformist religion in the family at the time.

I know a lot of people registered with the ‘traditional’ parish churches during this period as they were unable to do so in a non-conformist church at the time. So maybe some family members were NC?

Has anyone else had similar experiences or thoughts?

Difficult to generalise as many of my Anglican relatives were church attenders for convenience or had Calvinist sympathies.

Some of the anti nonconformist views I found were the result of the parish burials legislation that forced clerics to allow nonconformist burials in parish burial grounds - that’s late 1800s though.

It does strike me that 1850s churchgoers would have had to move further than Shropshire to avoid Welsh nonconformists. Oswestry in particular looks very much like market towns on the Welsh side of the border. It was in the Welsh diocese of St Asaph until the 20th century and had chapels for all the main Welsh denominations.

It might be worth having a look at the Anglican publications published in Wales.

Capitalis
12-20-2022, 08:39 PM
You are right that it is difficult to compare Wales and Ireland. The populations are different as is the scale of the diaspora. And differing levels of continuing intermarriage is a factor too.

The current population of the island of Ireland is a little over twice the population of Wales. Back in 1841 it was eight times the population of Wales. It used to be possible to compare the numbers in the Ireland communities with the numbers in the Wales community. I can’t see the size of the Ireland communities but I guess it is well into the millions. By contrast the Wales community is still only 236k. Even the number of communities is skewed: 94 for Ireland and 5 for Wales.

I don’t think I expected the suggestion that “an American with the Wales community will have at least a Welsh grandparent or great-grandparent” to translate to people with Welsh grandparents scoring the Wales community. But I think this is less likely in families with ancestry in sparsely populated areas of mid Wales close to the English border. Interestingly, the maps of the Wales communities are quite vague in these areas.

Munster (SW Ireland) is currently 1.46 million. It has grown by half a million in a short period of time.