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rms2
03-05-2016, 02:49 AM
I found this video interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDayU9lAuJA

The girls' accents are interesting, and their physical appearance is interesting, as well. When I was in Wales last summer, it seemed to me there were a lot a of redheads in Wales. Here is BritainsDNA's red hair variants frequency map, which shows Wales as pretty high in red hair variants.

8048

rms2
03-06-2016, 03:07 PM
I would like to see archaeologists and geneticists do some poking around on the Scudamores' property in Herefordshire to see if they can turn up the remains of Owain Glyndwr (Shakespeare's Owen Glendower). I would really like to see Glyndwr's genome, especially his y-dna.

Here is a pretty good documentary on Glyndwr.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vZcnIt0b0k&index=1&list=PLNTBUzUirYqD1TIcL9bV0nW8xFXsH3Qk6

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-06-2016, 07:34 PM
I would like to see archaeologists and geneticists do some poking around on the Scudamores' property in Herefordshire to see if they can turn up the remains of Owain Glyndwr (Shakespeare's Owen Glendower). I would really like to see Glyndwr's genome, especially his y-dna.

Here is a pretty good documentary on Glyndwr.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vZcnIt0b0k&index=1&list=PLNTBUzUirYqD1TIcL9bV0nW8xFXsH3Qk6

Sorry I haven't watched the video yet. It is a bit of a mystery that such a prominent figure should basically just disappear. The Welsh like heroes who disappear, as they could return when the time is right to drive out the invader. :) There is a reference to Anglo-Welsh origins and Glyndwr's grandfather marrying a Lestrange, but I don't know if this means they were blood relations, that is, she was his grandmother?
I

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-06-2016, 07:41 PM
I found this video interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDayU9lAuJA

The girls' accents are interesting, and their physical appearance is interesting, as well. When I was in Wales last summer, it seemed to me there were a lot a of redheads in Wales. Here is BritainsDNA's red hair variants frequency map, which shows Wales as pretty high in red hair variants.

8048

Welsh accents can be very varied within a relatively small geographical area. I'm from this part of the World. Cwmbran is a relatively new town, (1949) so there was a lot of in-migration, it doesn't sound "Welsh" to me. Perhaps 10-15 miles up the road you have the valleys where the Welsh accent is much more evident despite major migration during the industrial revolution. I worked in Newport and Cwmbran and used to be mocked for pronouncing "coat" "cort" etc. :)

rms2
03-07-2016, 02:08 AM
Speaking of the adjective "posh" (mentioned by the red haired girl Chloe in reference to her accent), when my family and I were having dinner one evening at the Neuadd Arms Hotel in Llanwrtyd Wells, the lady who owned the place (who has a surname ending in the very English "ham", btw) remarked that my surname didn't sound Welsh to her but instead struck her as a "posh" English surname. I suppose that was flattering in some ways, but I assured her my ancestry is Welsh, as confirmed by genetic testing, and that originally it was ap Stephen, subject to a common transformation reflected in other similar Welsh surnames with s endings like Williams, Evans, Roberts, Hughes, etc.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-07-2016, 07:49 AM
Speaking of the adjective "posh" (mentioned by the red haired girl Chloe in reference to her accent), when my family and I were having dinner one evening at the Neuadd Arms Hotel in Llanwrtyd Wells, the lady who owned the place (who has a surname ending in the very English "ham", btw) remarked that my surname didn't sound Welsh to her but instead struck her as a "posh" English surname. I suppose that was flattering in some ways, but I assured her my ancestry is Welsh, as confirmed by genetic testing, and that originally it was ap Stephen, subject to a common transformation reflected in other similar Welsh surnames with s endings like Williams, Evans, Roberts, Hughes, etc.

"Posh" can be a compliment or sometimes said with a bit of a sneer and showing envy or a degree of resentment in Wales. :) You can check your Welsh posh-ness here. :)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi0idiSiK7LAhWJXhQKHcy3DH4QFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.walesonline.co.uk%2Flifestyle %2Ffun-stuff%2Fyou-valleys-posh-tatler-posh-8172397&usg=AFQjCNEQ_jqxCdmpV-DbFqgSlmKgiW2JEA

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-07-2016, 08:12 AM
Just out of interest, this is a song about Glyndwr. Most Welsh people, I think, aren't fervent about independence these days for pragmatic reasons, but maybe many have a little romantic piece of themselves which regrets it can't be so. :)


https://youtu.be/6OMISGGz1rs

GMan71
03-07-2016, 09:04 AM
[QUOTE=JohnHowellsTyrfro;144213]"Posh" can be a compliment or sometimes said with a bit of a sneer and showing envy or a degree of resentment in Wales. :) You can check your Welsh posh-ness here. :)

I was on the end of it once too - New Years Eve in Usk. Somehow a local (very drunk!) considered my Aussie accent posh or something similar.... not something we would get too often overseas I don't think - usually the opposite :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-07-2016, 10:26 AM
[QUOTE=JohnHowellsTyrfro;144213]"Posh" can be a compliment or sometimes said with a bit of a sneer and showing envy or a degree of resentment in Wales. :) You can check your Welsh posh-ness here. :)

I was on the end of it once too - New Years Eve in Usk. Somehow a local (very drunk!) considered my Aussie accent posh or something similar.... not something we would get too often overseas I don't think - usually the opposite :)

Usk Town itself is quite a "posh" area I think, quite affluent, you might have come across someone from outside the town. :) There can be a sort of reverse snobbery amongst some people here. When I was younger I was sometimes on the receiving end of jokes because I pronounced the "H" in Howells. Some people can have a chip on their shoulder, for whatever reason. I'm not saying it is just a Welsh characteristic, most people are very friendly to outsiders.

GMan71
03-07-2016, 11:24 AM
[QUOTE=GMan71;144223]

Usk Town itself is quite a "posh" area I think, quite affluent, you might have come across someone from outside the town. :) There can be a sort of reverse snobbery amongst some people here. When I was younger I was sometimes on the receiving end of jokes because I pronounced the "H" in Howells. Some people can have a chip on their shoulder, for whatever reason. I'm not saying it is just a Welsh characteristic, most people are very friendly to outsiders.

Re the chip on the shoulder and reverse snobbery - I don't disagree - can get that anywhere and I'm sure I've been guilty of reverse snobbery from time to time - but then maybe I get that from my Welsh mothers side :)

Found the folk of Usk very friendly that New Years eve BTW - and one in particular could have been "very" friendly .......but I had a girlfriend back home so its just a memory of what could have been!

rms2
03-07-2016, 12:41 PM
"Posh" can be a compliment or sometimes said with a bit of a sneer and showing envy or a degree of resentment in Wales. :) You can check your Welsh posh-ness here. :)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi0idiSiK7LAhWJXhQKHcy3DH4QFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.walesonline.co.uk%2Flifestyle %2Ffun-stuff%2Fyou-valleys-posh-tatler-posh-8172397&usg=AFQjCNEQ_jqxCdmpV-DbFqgSlmKgiW2JEA

I don't think the lady meant anything bad by it. Her attitude was very friendly and jovial.

Wish I had the money to really be posh.

jdean
03-07-2016, 12:50 PM
A Welsh joke you hear in various forms

Megan Hughes is getting married.
Getting married? I didn't even know she was pregnant.
She's not
Well there's posh

: ))))

MitchellSince1893
03-07-2016, 01:42 PM
Overall ~ 14% of my ancestry is Welsh. 1/8th of my ancestors are from Newtown, Wales area. I actually knew my Welsh great grandmother Morgan who was born in Newtown in 1892. In fact I have a newly discovered 2nd cousin that still lives in Wales.
Her family was involved in the flannel industry. I has the the opportunity to visit Newtown back in 1997.
Somewhere on this line I have Romany ancestry, based on dna matches.

Dubhthach
03-07-2016, 03:54 PM
Just while we are talking about accents ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhdXJrGr1iM

rms2
03-07-2016, 04:45 PM
Overall ~ 14% of my ancestry is Welsh . . .

I'm not sure what percentage of my ancestry is Welsh, but three out of the four surnames borne by my grandparents are Welsh: Stevens, Pierce, and Morris. None of my grandparents was 100% Welsh, however. For example, my dad's maternal grandmother was Irish (or of fairly recent Irish extraction, I'm not sure which), which means my paternal grandmother was apparently at least half Irish.

There are some other Welsh surnames here and there further back in my pedigree , like Morgan.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-07-2016, 05:50 PM
My grandparents go as follows:-
Howells - paternal grandfather - Herefordshire border origin traced to 1660's
James - paternal grandmother - Radnorshire origin traced to late 1700's
Jones- maternal grandfather - Monmouthshire origin traced to early 1800's (too many Jones' to go back further)
Morgan - maternal grandmother - Herefordshire, Leominster traced to early 1800's
Some of these I know I can trace further back, just haven't got around to it yet, but Jones is a problem, because so many people had the same names. I hit a block at "John Jones" a great grandfather. Nearly all my ancestors are Welsh borders so far, but a couple of female earlier ancestors came from Lincolnshire and Banbury, Oxfordshire (an Inn-keeping family). How they came to marry men from the Welsh borders is a bit of a mystery, but most were involved in agriculture, so maybe some were involved in driving livestock to England (drovers). I would love to know. :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-07-2016, 05:57 PM
A Welsh joke you hear in various forms

Megan Hughes is getting married.
Getting married? I didn't even know she was pregnant.
She's not
Well there's posh

: ))))

One good Welsh characteristic is that we don't mind laughing at ourselves. :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-07-2016, 06:38 PM
Members who don't live in the UK might not appreciate that this weekend sees the most important sporting event in the Welsh calendar, the annual rugby international against England, this time at Twickenham or "Twickers" as the English call it. They also tend to call rugby "rugger" for some reason, all those public school types I expect. ;) The Welsh supporters ( meaning nearly everyone in Wales) absolutely hate losing against England and will support any team playing England. It genuinely is a bit of a National disaster if Wales lose. The English are not too keen on losing to the Welsh either. The English supporters tend to sing one verse the old spiritual "Swing Low sweet chariots" (badly) , so there are a lot of jokes about wheels coming off chariots if the English lose. The Welsh, on the other hand, sing traditional hymns beautifully:-


https://youtu.be/5iPqepdQhR8



8072

The weeks leading up to the game see a lot of mainly good-natured banter on the Internet and media and whoever lose get a hard time from the opposition supporters. At the moment the Welsh hold the bragging rights, having beaten England in the Rugby World Cup and gone further than them in the tournament. (Oh dear, how sad, never mind) :)
This more civilised form of warfare began in 1881 and incredibly, after all this time, honours are almost even :- https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwidmo3Llq_LAhUH1xQKHSZZBLsQFggfMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHistor y_of_rugby_union_matches_between_England_and_Wales&usg=AFQjCNENMSI5QzhRN3SlvSIJec8QPvqc3A

The one thing we do share though, is love of the game and physical hostilities are confined to the field of play.

jdean
03-07-2016, 06:57 PM
https://youtu.be/5iPqepdQhR8

Bloody marvellous : )))))))))

Cinnamon orange
03-07-2016, 07:05 PM
From memory my Welsh surnames are Watkins, Jones and Lewis.

jdean
03-07-2016, 07:45 PM
Currently mine are 4x Davies, 4x Morgan, 3x Thomas, 2x Morris, 2x Owen, 2x Parry, Harris, Jones, Meredith, Powell, Price, Pritchard, Richards & Williams.

There's a reason Welsh genealogy is such a struggle !!!

My MDK MtDNA ancestor was a Mary Morgan born about about 1793 in Crickhowel, Crickhowel isn't a very large place by any stretch of the imagination so you would think it wouldn't be much of a challenge to push that line back a bit further ?

Could be worse of course, I have an exact MtDNA match who's ancestor was a Mary Jones from Cardiff : )

Jean M
03-07-2016, 07:49 PM
The Welsh, on the other hand, sing traditional hymns beautifully:-


https://youtu.be/5iPqepdQhR8

Makes me cry every time. :)

Lirio100
03-07-2016, 09:34 PM
Bowen, Jones, Garrett/Jarrett. Sister of the Bowen married a Williams. They were from the Nantyglo area, and my great grandmother spoke Welsh.

GMan71
03-07-2016, 10:41 PM
I have Powell, Griffiths and Morgan as "Welsh" surnames on the "Welsh" side of the family- as posted elsewhere while my mum was born in Wales her mums side was from western Herefordshire. Some English Bagley and Jeffrey in there as well. I can only go back into mid/early 1800's.

Walters is my mums mums paternal line - while not "Welsh" as such it seems to have comparatively high frequency in southern Wales per 1891 census. I would like to think it was a "Welshman" with an Anglo name "Walter" that started that patronymic!

I get lost amongst the "Morgan" surname when tracing my tree. I have Morgan in multiple family branches and Morgan's marrying Morgan's etc. My GGF married a Morgan, my GGGF married a Morgan and a GGGGF was a Morgan who married a Morgan.

Unfortunately I don't know who my mothers father was - supposedly a businessman from Abergavenny. I guess I now pass the Welsh "not posh" tests in earlier posts :)

As an aside - My dad has recently done FTDNA Family Finder so I can see who our common matches are - assume those who aren't are from mums side (she died when I was young so can't get her tested). I seem to have a lot of matches from mums side in the US bunched around Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama. Given my mum was born in early 1945 I'm wondering visiting US soldier?! Otherwise always a possibility of an ancestor or their sibling migrating to that part of the US.

GMan71
03-07-2016, 11:29 PM
The Welsh, on the other hand, sing traditional hymns beautifully:-

Sospan Fach was my favourite growing up - grew up in Australia but mum had a number of records we would listen to - I still have them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2aATYJKmPw
Treorchy Choir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-TgTPv8brI
Cerys Matthews

and as Rugby was discussed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqKHsOuPAxU
Max Boyce - Pontypool Front Row. Afraid my "Welshness" is stuck in the 1970's! I still support Wales over Australia in the rugby.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-08-2016, 06:11 AM
Currently mine are 4x Davies, 4x Morgan, 3x Thomas, 2x Morris, 2x Owen, 2x Parry, Harris, Jones, Meredith, Powell, Price, Pritchard, Richards & Williams.

There's a reason Welsh genealogy is such a struggle !!!

My MDK MtDNA ancestor was a Mary Morgan born about about 1793 in Crickhowel, Crickhowel isn't a very large place by any stretch of the imagination so you would think it wouldn't be much of a challenge to push that line back a bit further ?

Could be worse of course, I have an exact MtDNA match who's ancestor was a Mary Jones from Cardiff : )

One of my possible ancestors, who I haven't been absolutely able to confirm 100% as yet, was a Jones who was a shepherd from Llangynidr (near Crickhowell). My paternal great grandmother was a Sabiah Jones and he had a daughter named Sibiah or Sabiah which is a pretty unusual Christian name.
Crickhowell (Crug Hywel) is a lovely little town, not yet spoiled by modern life. I would strongly recommend The Bear Hotel, an old coaching Inn, to anyone visiting the area, dog-friendly too. :) https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi2xIXzsrDLAhUrG5oKHaqmASMQFggsMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cpat.org.uk%2Fycom%2Fbbnp%2Fc rickhowell.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGBD76q_9Im96mDa7SYr_j8hM-U5g

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-08-2016, 06:13 AM
Makes me cry every time. :)

You must have a Welsh soul then. ;)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-08-2016, 06:28 AM
Bowen, Jones, Garrett/Jarrett. Sister of the Bowen married a Williams. They were from the Nantyglo area, and my great grandmother spoke Welsh.

I live in Nantyglo, small World. :) Many of the earlier headstones in Hermon Chapel cemetery (Nantyglo) are in Welsh.

8076

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-08-2016, 06:41 AM
I have Powell, Griffiths and Morgan as "Welsh" surnames on the "Welsh" side of the family- as posted elsewhere while my mum was born in Wales her mums side was from western Herefordshire. Some English Bagley and Jeffrey in there as well. I can only go back into mid/early 1800's.

Walters is my mums mums paternal line - while not "Welsh" as such it seems to have comparatively high frequency in southern Wales per 1891 census. I would like to think it was a "Welshman" with an Anglo name "Walter" that started that patronymic!

I get lost amongst the "Morgan" surname when tracing my tree. I have Morgan in multiple family branches and Morgan's marrying Morgan's etc. My GGF married a Morgan, my GGGF married a Morgan and a GGGGF was a Morgan who married a Morgan.

Unfortunately I don't know who my mothers father was - supposedly a businessman from Abergavenny. I guess I now pass the Welsh "not posh" tests in earlier posts :)

As an aside - My dad has recently done FTDNA Family Finder so I can see who our common matches are - assume those who aren't are from mums side (she died when I was young so can't get her tested). I seem to have a lot of matches from mums side in the US bunched around Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama. Given my mum was born in early 1945 I'm wondering visiting US soldier?! Otherwise always a possibility of an ancestor or their sibling migrating to that part of the US.

I would think an American Serviceman is a distinct possibility. I think there were a lot of US troops based near Abergavenny in WW2. Many of course went to fight and never came back. Good luck with your search

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-08-2016, 06:48 AM
The Welsh, on the other hand, sing traditional hymns beautifully:-

Sospan Fach was my favourite growing up - grew up in Australia but mum had a number of records we would listen to - I still have them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2aATYJKmPw
Treorchy Choir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-TgTPv8brI
Cerys Matthews

and as Rugby was discussed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqKHsOuPAxU
Max Boyce - Pontypool Front Row. Afraid my "Welshness" is stuck in the 1970's! I still support Wales over Australia in the rugby.

You might like this one then "Boycezone" singing "Bread of Heaven" :)


https://youtu.be/6iimx4JA97U?list=PLCF68FA5751E13797

Lirio100
03-08-2016, 04:06 PM
I live in Nantyglo, small World. :) Many of the earlier headstones in Hermon Chapel cemetery (Nantyglo) are in Welsh.

8076

Do you know anything about the iron works that were in the area? In 1851 and 1861 the family was living in Aberystryth, in 1871 Nantyglo, but in both places her father and later her brother were working in the iron mills. Was Chartism active in the area?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-08-2016, 05:49 PM
Do you know anything about the iron works that were in the area? In 1851 and 1861 the family was living in Aberystryth, in 1871 Nantyglo, but in both places her father and later her brother were working in the iron mills. Was Chartism active in the area?

Nantyglo is in Aberystruth, which is the name of the parish. Nant-y-glo means "coal brook" or "coal stream" in English. Yes, this was one of the main centres of Chartism and the last fortified residence in Britain was built by Ironmaster Crawshay Bailey in Nantyglo. A number of Nantyglo men and men from neighbouring villages were killed in the attack on the Westgate Hotel in Newport. The Royal Oak Pub ( now a private residence ) which Zephania Williams, one of the Chartist leaders, kept, is a couple of hundred yards from where I live. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwibsZPAy7HLAhWC0xQKHUMJCi0QFggkMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blaenau-gwent.gov.uk%2Fleisure%2F8031.asp&usg=AFQjCNHtrwIZU1uA11sz8U3K_cGZPNBZ_Q

Yes Nantyglo Ironworks was one of the largest in the World at one time, nothing much is left of of it now, but parts of Blaenavon Iron Works, not far away, are still standing :- https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjP06PCzrHLAhXCtBQKHbxaBHUQFgg3MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fthomasgenweb.com%2Fnantyglo_round _towers.html&usg=AFQjCNGKZeovYR4vh0IV0IZ7pHsIsxDqOA

If you are on Facebook there are a few local history FB groups which feature Nantyglo and the neighbouring villages of Blaina and Brynmawr, with some very interesting old photos, including the Ironworks when still standing.You will be made very welcome and you may find you still have relatives in the area. :) This is one painting of the Ironworks :-


8082

GoldenHind
03-08-2016, 06:52 PM
Crickhowell (Crug Hywel) is a lovely little town, not yet spoiled by modern life. I would strongly recommend The Bear Hotel, an old coaching Inn, to anyone visiting the area, dog-friendly too. :) https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi2xIXzsrDLAhUrG5oKHaqmASMQFggsMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cpat.org.uk%2Fycom%2Fbbnp%2Fc rickhowell.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGBD76q_9Im96mDa7SYr_j8hM-U5g

I had lunch at The Bear some years ago, while on a visit to Tretower Castle and Manor, which are only a few miles from Crickhowell. The former is a Norman keep and the latter one of the best surviving examples in Britain of a late medieval fortified manor house. Well worth a visit, for those who have an interest in that sort of thing.

swid
03-08-2016, 07:01 PM
On a semi-related note (as there's a chapter in the book about visiting an iron works), has anyone read Wild Wales (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Wales)? It's an 1854 book about an English traveler's journeys through Wales; fortunately for him, he was a self-taught Welsh speaker.

Sometime I'd like to make it back to Wales and travel along the route he took (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Borrow's_Route_in_Wild_Wales.jpg) in the book.

Lirio100
03-08-2016, 07:26 PM
I am on FB, and I will look at the pages! Her father was a generation afterwards, but I'd guess her grandfather might have been working in the iron mills too at the time. Her sister married a Williams from Nantyglo (he was a lime dauber?), the family came to America too.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-08-2016, 08:04 PM
I am on FB, and I will look at the pages! Her father was a generation afterwards, but I'd guess her grandfather might have been working in the iron mills too at the time. Her sister married a Williams from Nantyglo (he was a lime dauber?), the family came to America too.

If you have any problems or I can help, just let me know. :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-08-2016, 08:09 PM
On a semi-related note (as there's a chapter in the book about visiting an iron works), has anyone read Wild Wales (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Wales)? It's an 1854 book about an English traveler's journeys through Wales; fortunately for him, he was a self-taught Welsh speaker.

Sometime I'd like to make it back to Wales and travel along the route he took (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Borrow's_Route_in_Wild_Wales.jpg) in the book.

I haven't read it yet, but had heard of it. Interesting that Wales was still regarded as "wild" in the 1850's. :)

rms2
03-10-2016, 12:54 AM
I haven't read it yet, but had heard of it. Interesting that Wales was still regarded as "wild" in the 1850's. :)

I don't know about "wild", but when I visited Wales for the first time this past July, I was certainly impressed by the extent of its unspoiled natural beauty. What a beautiful place: green, mountainous, lovely. I could go on, but one has to see Wales to appreciate it. It made me proud to be of Welsh ancestry. I love rural and small town regions. I am not a fan of big cities. I found Wales much to my liking.

One thing that really struck me was the pleasant summer climate. My family and I did a lot of walking and even climbed a steep mountainside in the Elan Valley, and we never broke a sweat. And that was in July! Tell people in Virginia that and they think you're joking.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-10-2016, 07:10 AM
I don't know about "wild", but when I visited Wales for the first time this past July, I was certainly impressed by the extent of its unspoiled natural beauty. What a beautiful place: green, mountainous, lovely. I could go on, but one has to see Wales to appreciate it. It made me proud to be of Welsh ancestry. I love rural and small town regions. I am not a fan of big cities. I found Wales much to my liking.

One thing that really struck me was the pleasant summer climate. My family and I did a lot of walking and even climbed a steep mountainside in the Elan Valley, and we never broke a sweat. And that was in July! Tell people in Virginia that and they think you're joking.

Like most parts of Britain we have a varied climate and we have our fair share of rain, you can be lucky with the weather, or not. :) Wales is a lovely country though, even the areas which were previously heavily industrialised. I probably sound like the Welsh Tourist Board, but we a fortunate to have a very varied landscape and a rich history and heritage in what is quite a small country.

Cinnamon orange
03-10-2016, 09:53 PM
I have Powell, Griffiths and Morgan as "Welsh" surnames on the "Welsh" side of the family- as posted elsewhere while my mum was born in Wales her mums side was from western Herefordshire. Some English Bagley and Jeffrey in there as well. I can only go back into mid/early 1800's.

Walters is my mums mums paternal line - while not "Welsh" as such it seems to have comparatively high frequency in southern Wales per 1891 census. I would like to think it was a "Welshman" with an Anglo name "Walter" that started that patronymic!

I get lost amongst the "Morgan" surname when tracing my tree. I have Morgan in multiple family branches and Morgan's marrying Morgan's etc. My GGF married a Morgan, my GGGF married a Morgan and a GGGGF was a Morgan who married a Morgan.

Unfortunately I don't know who my mothers father was - supposedly a businessman from Abergavenny. I guess I now pass the Welsh "not posh" tests in earlier posts :)

As an aside - My dad has recently done FTDNA Family Finder so I can see who our common matches are - assume those who aren't are from mums side (she died when I was young so can't get her tested). I seem to have a lot of matches from mums side in the US bunched around Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama. Given my mum was born in early 1945 I'm wondering visiting US soldier?! Otherwise always a possibility of an ancestor or their sibling migrating to that part of the US.

I did not test at FTDNA, so not familiar with their system. But if you can see the distance of the relationship and are not hitting any say second cousins in the US, it may help you determine if it is an older British isles tie or a more recent ie mums father was possibly an American serviceman.

GMan71
03-13-2016, 12:03 PM
I did not test at FTDNA, so not familiar with their system. But if you can see the distance of the relationship and are not hitting any say second cousins in the US, it may help you determine if it is an older British isles tie or a more recent ie mums father was possibly an American serviceman.

Thanks for the message. FTDNA shows distance - ie 2nd to 4th cousin, 3rd to 5th, 5th to distant etc. Closest I have shows 2nd to 4th but if I cross check against gedmatch then closest is about 4.5 generations. Those US matches who have family trees posted in FTDNA generally are from families that seem to have been in the US for hundreds of years. I'm a bit of a novice in such things so not really sure if that helps narrow it down in any meaningful way!

GMan71
03-13-2016, 12:10 PM
Members who don't live in the UK might not appreciate that this weekend sees the most important sporting event in the Welsh calendar, the annual rugby international against England, this time at Twickenham or "Twickers" as the English call it. They also tend to call rugby "rugger" for some reason, all those public school types I expect. ;) The Welsh supporters ( meaning nearly everyone in Wales) absolutely hate losing against England and will support any team playing England. It genuinely is a bit of a National disaster if Wales lose. The English are not too keen on losing to the Welsh either.

I see Wales lost - bugger - hopefully they are coping OK with the "national disaster"....not only for the loss but the fact England will now win the 6 nations tournament

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-13-2016, 01:35 PM
I see Wales lost - bugger - hopefully they are coping OK with the "national disaster"....not only for the loss but the fact England will now win the 6 nations tournament

It never goes down well. :(
Wales have not really been on form for the whole tournament. Yesterday they played poorly, apart from the last 20 minutes when they woke up and rang England very close, but in all honesty they didn't deserve to win. There is always next year - at Cardiff. :)

rms2
03-13-2016, 02:20 PM
There is a guy over on the Facebook Wales and Welsh DNA group who is talking about his Big Y match with "the Howell family of Wales" (Howell without the s of Howells). He says these Howells are "ru106>z18>z2396>zp147". I found that interesting. I wonder if they might possibly be y-dna relatives of yours, John. I'm not sure how all of those SNPs translate to BritainsDNA nomenclature, but Z18 is apparently on the same level as S261 and S262 according to ISOGG.

Here's the post from Facebook:



Thank you for adding me Janet Lewis Crain. Jeremy Thomas has been helping me explore my possible Welsh family roots. My Big Y test from Family Tree DNA matches me with the Howell family from Wales. The Howell's and I are ru106>z18>z2396>zp147. I also have a 111 dys marker match with a genetic distance of 9 with a Jones family. My ancestor arrived in Amherst VA in 1680. Samuel Marksbury did not write down where he came from. I also cannot seem to find him on any ship rolls that might have brought him to VA. My Gedmatch kit is F348859 if anyone would like to compare.


https://www.facebook.com/groups/95845841347/

corner
03-13-2016, 04:52 PM
I see Wales lostThought it had gone a bit quiet :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-13-2016, 06:54 PM
Thought it had gone a bit quiet :)

We need some time to sulk. :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-13-2016, 07:10 PM
There is a guy over on the Facebook Wales and Welsh DNA group who is talking about his Big Y match with "the Howell family of Wales" (Howell without the s of Howells). He says these Howells are "ru106>z18>z2396>zp147". I found that interesting. I wonder if they might possibly be y-dna relatives of yours, John. I'm not sure how all of those SNPs translate to BritainsDNA nomenclature, but Z18 is apparently on the same level as S261 and S262 according to ISOGG.

Here's the post from Facebook:



https://www.facebook.com/groups/95845841347/

That's interesting - another Howell/Howells U106er. :) As I've admitted before, I'm sadly lacking in understanding the DNA technicalities, but apparently my S11136 is located at Z326->FGC18842->S21728 at the S21278 haplogroup level. I have an S263 marker if that means anything.:)

My markers here (if the link opens) :-
https://www.cymrudnawales.com/mydna/results/view/john-howells/chromo2/ydna/genetic-signature

rms2
03-14-2016, 12:20 AM
That's interesting - another Howell/Howells U106er. :) As I've admitted before, I'm sadly lacking in understanding the DNA technicalities, but apparently my S11136 is located at Z326->FGC18842->S21728 at the S21278 haplogroup level. I have an S263 marker if that means anything.:)

My markers here (if the link opens) :-
https://www.cymrudnawales.com/mydna/results/view/john-howells/chromo2/ydna/genetic-signature

Ah. Apparently these Howell folks are on a parallel U106 line and not the same as yours. Oh, well.

Cinnamon orange
03-30-2016, 09:32 PM
Thanks for the message. FTDNA shows distance - ie 2nd to 4th cousin, 3rd to 5th, 5th to distant etc. Closest I have shows 2nd to 4th but if I cross check against gedmatch then closest is about 4.5 generations. Those US matches who have family trees posted in FTDNA generally are from families that seem to have been in the US for hundreds of years. I'm a bit of a novice in such things so not really sure if that helps narrow it down in any meaningful way!

Hmm, tricky. Second would be good if they were colonials. Have you only tested at FTDNA so far? Ancestry.com may be your best bet of looking for a possible American link. Quite a few people have trees there. My ancestors are more recent US immigrants, so Ancestry.com is not too productive for me via relative links, but you may hit the jackpot with colonials with good records. Maybe even someone who knows of servicemen from WW2.

Webb
03-31-2016, 03:21 PM
Thanks for the message. FTDNA shows distance - ie 2nd to 4th cousin, 3rd to 5th, 5th to distant etc. Closest I have shows 2nd to 4th but if I cross check against gedmatch then closest is about 4.5 generations. Those US matches who have family trees posted in FTDNA generally are from families that seem to have been in the US for hundreds of years. I'm a bit of a novice in such things so not really sure if that helps narrow it down in any meaningful way!

That is interesting. I have a 3rd to 5th cousin match on FamilyFinder who lives in Australia. She knows for a fact her ancestor left Ireland for Australia in the early 1700's. Mine arrived in the U.S. at around the same time. The two must have been closely related, but have been separated since the 1700's, yet FTDNA has us as 3rd to 5th cousins. I know on my side here in the U.S., there was quite of bit of 1st cousin marriages with this particular line.

Lirio100
04-01-2016, 03:49 PM
https://howardwilliamsblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/31/the-smiling-abbot-of-valle-crucis-an-archaeodeath-exclusive/

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-01-2016, 06:48 PM
https://howardwilliamsblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/31/the-smiling-abbot-of-valle-crucis-an-archaeodeath-exclusive/

Interesting that they have used an anglicised spelling of Howel rather than Hywel. He looks quite a pleasant chap. :)

8552

Lirio100
04-01-2016, 07:18 PM
He does point out several possibilities that do use the Hywel! It's near the border, sorta, might have imported the mason. He does quite a bit on Welsh topics.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-03-2016, 05:24 PM
Italian Welsh.
In South Wales there has been a fairly substantial Italian community for many years. At one time every small town or village seemed to have at least one Italian cafe, Italian barbers etc. and they have been part of valleys life for generations.
Unfortunately you don't see many any more, due to the decline in traditional village or town shopping and economic conditions.

8579



https://youtu.be/VYP1SqzvAIs

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwir__jV_PLLAhVCvBQKHam8BbcQtwIIMTAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6k fV4OidvX0&usg=AFQjCNHS_7DNOnk0hGZa-oL76uD3pYLl3g&bvm=bv.118443451,d.ZWU

Dubhthach
04-03-2016, 07:29 PM
Italian Welsh.
In South Wales there has been a fairly substantial Italian community for many years. At one time every small town or village seemed to have at least one Italian cafe, Italian barbers etc. and they have been part of valleys life for generations.
Unfortunately you don't see many any more, due to the decline in traditional village or town shopping and economic conditions.

8579



https://youtu.be/VYP1SqzvAIs

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwir__jV_PLLAhVCvBQKHam8BbcQtwIIMTAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6k fV4OidvX0&usg=AFQjCNHS_7DNOnk0hGZa-oL76uD3pYLl3g&bvm=bv.118443451,d.ZWU

In Dublin the "traditional chippers" are basically "Italian Chippers", their association is called ITICA (Irish Traditional Italian Chipper Association) ;)

Some rather similar photo's on this page:
http://www.itica.ie/index.php/history/

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-04-2016, 05:53 AM
In Dublin the "traditional chippers" are basically "Italian Chippers", their association is called ITICA (Irish Traditional Italian Chipper Association) ;)

Some rather similar photo's on this page:
http://www.itica.ie/index.php/history/

The ice cream vans were always a favourite when I was a boy, Sidoli's, Ferrari's or a Sundae in the cafe. :)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Flocal%2Fsouthwest wales%2Fhi%2Fpeople_and_places%2Fhistory%2Fnewsid_ 8494000%2F8494079.stm&psig=AFQjCNHe7owJiEPe0NpiotOfip9-B3EwBA&ust=1459835349799833

jdean
04-04-2016, 08:05 AM
In Dublin the "traditional chippers" are basically "Italian Chippers", their association is called ITICA (Irish Traditional Italian Chipper Association) ;)

Some rather similar photo's on this page:
http://www.itica.ie/index.php/history/

Many of the finest Fish & Chip shops in S. Wales are run by Italian families including my favourite

8590

I’ve been eating here since I can remember and probably before that as well : )

dp
04-13-2016, 11:59 PM
Your mailbox is full.
This thread looks similar to my PM.
>>
It was last year when I browsed Welsh stuff.
Is it the Welsh or the Scottish that use A'+ like the Irish use the O'+
I remember Welsh map+ => ap+
That caught my eye being a 'p+(h)owell
dp :biggrin1:
>>

Many of the finest Fish & Chip shops in S. Wales are run by Italian families including my favourite

8590

I’ve been eating here since I can remember and probably before that as well : )

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-15-2016, 09:15 PM
Your mailbox is full.
This thread looks similar to my PM.
>>
It was last year when I browsed Welsh stuff.
Is it the Welsh or the Scottish that use A'+ like the Irish use the O'+
I remember Welsh map+ => ap+
That caught my eye being a 'p+(h)owell
dp :biggrin1:
>>

Ap means "son of" in Welsh, so Powell comes from Ap Hywel. Like Preece, Price and so on. It's curious though that some old traditional Welsh surnames are based on the anglicised "son of" like Jone(s), William(s), Howell(s) etc. :)

rms2
04-15-2016, 10:27 PM
When I was an undergraduate, long long ago and far far away, a fellow student and I became engaged in a conversation about genealogy. He was a Jewish guy. That doesn't really matter, but he was Jewish. He offered the suggestion that I might be Welsh and my surname originally ap Stephen. I thought, "No way!", and told him as much. Turns out he was right on the money, at least based on what the y-dna evidence has told thus far. Smart guy. I don't even remember his name.

jdean
04-16-2016, 09:29 AM
Ap means "son of" in Welsh, so Powell comes from Ap Hywel. Like Preece, Price and so on. It's curious though that some old traditional Welsh surnames are based on the anglicised "son of" like Jone(s), William(s), Howell(s) etc. :)

Just got a copy of "The Surnames of Wales" which Debbie Kennett recommended on another thread

Link (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3217-BritainsDNA-project-for-Wales&p=148913&viewfull=1#post148913)

Haven't had much time to read it yet but basically the reason Welsh surnames are dominated by English first names is the patronymic naming system hung on for such a long time and by then the fashion for first names had moved away from the traditional Welsh to biblical. Surnames based on more traditional Welsh first names are more likely to be found in areas that dropped the patronymic naming system earlier or in the English border counties.

moesan
04-16-2016, 08:49 PM
I have at hand "Welsh Surnames" by TJ and Pr MORGAN, explaining the same thing.
just for the interested people: in Leon, Northwest Brittany, the same system has been in use, I think (no source) because the following names are very frequent:
ABGRALL: ACCRALL, ABTANGUY, ABALAN: ABALLAIN, ABALEA: ABALLEA, ABALEO, ABGUEGUEN, APPRIOU, ABHERVE, ABARNOU, ABASIOU: ABAZIOU, ABAUTRET, ABEOZEN, AP(P)AMON: ABHAMON, ABGUILLERM, ABILY, ABIVEN: ABIVIN: ABYVEN, ABJEAN, ABOLIER: ABOLIVIER, ABOMNES, APPERRY, APPRIOUAL, APPERE; some of the componants in these names are born as surnames too: GRALL, TANGUY, ALAN, ALLAN, ALLAIN, GUEGUEN: GUEGAN, RIOU: RIO, HERVE(O)(U), ARNOU, AUTRET, EOZEN: EUSEN, HAMON, GUILLERM(E), YVEN, JAN: YANN, OLIER:OLIVIER, OMNES, HERRY, RIOUAL: RIVOAL...

rms2
04-17-2016, 02:39 AM
One of my 7th great grandfathers was from Bretagne. His name was Paul Micou. I found his grave not far from where I live a couple of years ago and took some photos.

8897 8898

The day I found his grave was one of the best. It moved me spiritually. I can't explain it otherwise.

rms2
04-17-2016, 02:49 AM
Just got a copy of "The Surnames of Wales" which Debbie Kennett recommended on another thread

Link (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3217-BritainsDNA-project-for-Wales&p=148913&viewfull=1#post148913)

Haven't had much time to read it yet but basically the reason Welsh surnames are dominated by English first names is the patronymic naming system hung on for such a long time and by then the fashion for first names had moved away from the traditional Welsh to biblical. Surnames based on more traditional Welsh first names are more likely to be found in areas that dropped the patronymic naming system earlier or in the English border counties.

I will probably buy that book, but if you could post the info on the surnames Stephens/Stevens and Beddoes, I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

JohnHowellsTyrfro
05-28-2016, 06:10 AM
The Welsh leave for Pategonia.


9490

https://www.facebook.com/TheHistoryOfWales/photos/a.320430204744335.76210.254090978044925/926280914159258/?type=3

avalon
05-29-2016, 10:35 AM
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/05/27/055855

Interesting new pre print to do with genes and blood pressure. It has been posted on the Irish thread but here are some Welsh related snippets I have pulled out.



Additionally, the lack of any ancient sample correlation with PC2 suggests that Welsh
populations are not differentially admixed with any ancient population in our data set, and
likely underwent Welsh-specific genetic drift.


No ancient samples were found to vary along the Welsh-specific axis, suggesting that the Welsh populations differ from the rest of the UK due to drift and not different levels of admixture.

First time I have seen drift referred to in a Welsh context in a scientific study although this is something I believe that Shaikworth and Jean M have suggested before. If drift is something that is more likely to occur in a small, relatively isolated population then Wales would fit the bill.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
05-29-2016, 12:23 PM
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/05/27/055855

Interesting new pre print to do with genes and blood pressure. It has been posted on the Irish thread but here are some Welsh related snippets I have pulled out.





First time I have seen drift referred to in a Welsh context in a scientific study although this is something I believe that Shaikworth and Jean M have suggested before. If drift is something that is more likely to occur in a small, relatively isolated population then Wales would fit the bill.

Could that possibly account for a higher frequency of "O" Blood groups in Wales and some other places?
" In England, Wales and Scotland there is a strong association between ABO blood group and geographical differences in the death rate (10) Studies of blood group distribution in the British Isles show a general increase of group O frequency from relatively low numbers in southern England to increasingly higher ones in northern England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. (11) This suggests that the Anglo-Saxons had relatively high A levels, and that O increased as the proportion of Celtic ancestry increased, although the origin of the high incidence of blood group O in the Irish may represent the remnants of Mesolithic peoples. (23) This is also the case with continental Europe, where the percentage of group O increases in northern Germans and Danes. It is also known that the Icelanders had high O frequencies, close to those frequencies found in the populations of Scotland and Ireland."

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi3ktDQof_MAhXpD8AKHUZaD_kQFghPMAs&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dadamo.com%2Ftxt%2Findex.pl%3 F1010&usg=AFQjCNGFseiHWrt8h8rTVbfRElW2F_2Qdg

Lirio100
05-29-2016, 04:18 PM
I happen to be Type O; my mom is Type O, so my dad had to carry at least one allele for it (I don't know what his type was). Mom's family tree is half Scandinavian, other half northern Germany and probably English Border. Dad was Welsh, northern England and northern Germany.

Baltimore1937
05-29-2016, 07:23 PM
As for myself, I have "A" blood type. Since my mother said she was "O", I must have one "A" allele and one "O". I assume my dad, who was 3/4 Norwegian and 1/4 German(Hessen-Thueringen) got his "A" from Norway. Elsewhere I read that Norwegians are strong on "A". My Welsh connections are on my maternal side from colonial times.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
05-30-2016, 05:14 AM
I happen to be Type O; my mom is Type O, so my dad had to carry at least one allele for it (I don't know what his type was). Mom's family tree is half Scandinavian, other half northern Germany and probably English Border. Dad was Welsh, northern England and northern Germany.

I seem to be a bit of a mix-up. "Y" U106, Welsh Surname and "O" negative. :)
In a previous thread I did mention what appears to be quite a clear pattern of geographical distribution of blood groups in Herefordshire.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4286-ABO-BLOOD-GROUPS-HUMAN-HISTORY-AND-LANGUAGE-IN-HEREFORDSHIRE-Morgan-Watkin&highlight=blood+herefordshire

avalon
05-30-2016, 06:31 AM
Could that possibly account for a higher frequency of "O" Blood groups in Wales and some other places?
" In England, Wales and Scotland there is a strong association between ABO blood group and geographical differences in the death rate (10) Studies of blood group distribution in the British Isles show a general increase of group O frequency from relatively low numbers in southern England to increasingly higher ones in northern England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. (11) This suggests that the Anglo-Saxons had relatively high A levels, and that O increased as the proportion of Celtic ancestry increased, although the origin of the high incidence of blood group O in the Irish may represent the remnants of Mesolithic peoples. (23) This is also the case with continental Europe, where the percentage of group O increases in northern Germans and Danes. It is also known that the Icelanders had high O frequencies, close to those frequencies found in the populations of Scotland and Ireland."


Interesting observation. Here is an old map of blood group O frequencies from the 1950s. There does appear to be some sort of correlation between blood group O and Celtic areas and higher "Steppe" ancestry.

9526

JohnHowellsTyrfro
05-30-2016, 06:47 AM
Interesting observation. Here is an old map of blood group O frequencies from the 1950s. There does appear to be some sort of correlation between blood group O and Celtic areas and higher "Steppe" ancestry.

9526

Thanks. I've started a separate thread relating to the link I posted. I thought maybe there might be some possibilities worth discussing more widely.

Lirio100
05-30-2016, 02:37 PM
I seem to be a bit of a mix-up. "Y" U106, Welsh Surname and "O" negative. :)
In a previous thread I did mention what appears to be quite a clear pattern of geographical distribution of blood groups in Herefordshire.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4286-ABO-BLOOD-GROUPS-HUMAN-HISTORY-AND-LANGUAGE-IN-HEREFORDSHIRE-Morgan-Watkin&highlight=blood+herefordshire

I did look a bit but there doesn't seem to be much on the distribution of the Rh factor. My mom is negative, I'm positive but my daughter is negative. Obviously I'm heterozygous for that trait, but she got the negative from her father too, and he is of entirely Irish ancestry.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
05-30-2016, 04:35 PM
I did look a bit but there doesn't seem to be much on the distribution of the Rh factor. My mom is negative, I'm positive but my daughter is negative. Obviously I'm heterozygous for that trait, but she got the negative from her father too, and he is of entirely Irish ancestry.

Oh that's easy to explain, we are part Nephilim, descended from a fallen angel. ;)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiJi5annILNAhVfF8AKHWjUADcQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fyournewswire.com%2Frhesus-negative-blood-you-may-belong-to-the-nephilim-a-parallel-human-race%2F&usg=AFQjCNFW28LQ0WaHkUDYIb2kQRkR6uB2nA


Actually this is quite an interesting link with maps. If I understand it correctly, the lowest incididence of Rhesus POSITIVE is in the Basque region around the Pyrenees.

9527


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjPt5r8noLNAhVGD8AKHSF7DNIQjhwIBQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdscblog.com%2F2012%2F03%2F31%2Fw ho-are-your-blood-types-ancestors%2F&bvm=bv.123325700,d.ZGg&psig=AFQjCNHcz2VEzr4onsRtkEAhfRlWu6AxGg&ust=1464712665123849

Lirio100
05-30-2016, 05:53 PM
Might explain my dad passing it along, since that's his paternal line ;)

swid
09-06-2016, 01:45 AM
There's not many people with any sort of connection to Welsh language or culture in Nebraska, but one of three Americans admitted to the Gorsedd of the Bards (http://journalstar.com/news/local/wales-bestows-highest-literary-honor-on-lincoln-s-martha-davies/article_0b1461ec-2855-5839-9985-73eae0b10e3f.html) is from Lincoln.

Semi-related...I should stop over at the Great Plains Welsh Heritage Project (http://welshheritageproject.org/) in Wymore, Nebraska sometime.

NLWelshWalsh
01-02-2018, 06:41 PM
I am new to researching my "possible" Welsh roots. My ancestors were those who left various Wales,irish and Scottish homes to come to Neefoundland and Labrador in 1600 to 1800. Due to the various wars, treaties and what not many records are absent and its difficult to get back across the pond and can't none to the dots. My maternal mother was Walsh, possibly Welsh in 1700s. Other names in the tree are Lewis, Turner, Dobbin, Downey and Legg. The one thing about all these family names /groups is that they all have very distinctive similar physical features, dark hair and skin with light eyes. Occasionally some very pale with reddish hair would be in the minority . There were often Kelly and Mullowney ancestors in those cases. My question is where would I start with Welsh records to determine if there was immigration to the NL area recorded for any more f the surnames bored above.Thanks for your help.

Saetro
01-03-2018, 12:02 AM
Kelly is not originally a Welsh name, but has separate origins in both Ireland and England.
Mullowney is very rare and does not appear Welsh but sounds Irish.
Walsh exists in England (southern Lancashire mostly) and a little in South Wales near the border, but is a popular form of "Welsh" in Ireland.
Lewis is originally Welsh.
Other names mentioned look like originally English.
You may find this site useful for checking surname location in GB http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/default.aspx
(Click on the big dot to start. The link in words in the text has been hijacked by someone else.)

(The abbreviation NL is the international abbreviation for Netherlands, so may confuse some people outside Canada.)

I have usually uncovered something from founder histories of a New World area, but it sounds as if you have trawled that area thoroughly already.
Some of my best information from the New World on origins in the Old has come from notes on church/parish history written by local ministers/priests, but they can be in strange places - including back in their home country. My own successes have almost always been from looking at every possible clue in the New World, even from apparently unrelated sources.

DNA (autosomal - the one commonly advertised) can go back to the 1700s - most of my solved links are there - but they also start dropping out around 5th cousin - about there.
If you try that, test the oldest living person in the line of interest. (Oldest in the sense of earliest generation.)
But DNA testing in one form or another can certainly jump a documentation gap - just as long as someone suitable in the Old Country has tested also; or someone in the New World whose ancestors left way more recently than yours.

Good luck with your searching.

msmarjoribanks
01-03-2018, 12:44 AM
It's really tough to confirm where people came from once you get back that far unless you get lucky. Can you find histories of the specific Newfoundland or Labrador areas to confirm any settlement patterns from specific locations back in Wales or (or Scotland, Ireland, or England)? So far I've not had a lot of luck making genetic connections with people from across the Atlantic from that long ago, in part because probably not enough of the distant cousin lines that stayed in the UK are tested. (In theory my genealogy goal when I started was to trace everyone back to the Old World. It's easy with a bunch of those who came in the 1600s, and I've been successful with those who came in the 1820s and after -- at least in knowing where they came from -- but those who came in the 1700s are a huge pain.)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-03-2018, 01:21 PM
The name Welsh/Welch or variations come from the Anglo Saxon or Old German term for foreign or strange I believe - Wealas. the Welsh didn't call themselves "Welsh" although it could suggest a possible early connection with Wales or at least people of similar heritage. :)
Have you done any DNA testing? FTDNA "Family Finder" might turn up something and isn't that expensive not always easy to find the relevant line of ancestry though.
There was a very early Welsh settlement in that region I think New Cambriol, but I think it wasn't a success in terms of long-term settlement.

Phoebe Watts
01-03-2018, 02:17 PM
I can't think of any Welsh records that would help without a bit more evidence.

There are books and articles written in Welsh in the 1800s about Welsh emigrants to America. They suggest that was only limited emigration to Canada from Wales up to the mid 1800s. These books were often written by ministers so what they mean is that there are no known Welsh chapels or communities and that Welsh emigrants joined English churches and chapels. I guess those individuals would probably be difficult to trace without some evidence within your family or a lucky DNA match.

The surnames Walsh or Welsh suggest a family of Welsh origins who had settled in Ireland. They would probably have arrived in Canada from Ireland (or from Liverpool if they emigrated in the 1800s).

Lewis is the only name in your list that is common in Wales. It does have an English source though so doesn't necessarily indicate Welsh origins.

You have a challenge here... I hope you find a solution.

msmarjoribanks
01-03-2018, 04:33 PM
Speaking of books by ministers, I recently obtained (and am excited to read) "The Works of the Rev. Griffith Edwards: Parochial Histories of Llangadfan, Garthbeibio, and Llanerfyl, Montgomeryshire, together with Welsh and English Poetry." It was published in 1895, and Edwards was the vicar of Llangafan from 1863, and apparently purports to give his understanding of the history of the region before then. I have ancestors who lived in Llangadfan and Llanerfyl (they went to the US (Wisconsin) in the late 1840s, although obviously other relatives stayed in Wales).

There's a good history of the Welsh settlement in the part of Wisconsin where they ended up (Columbia County) in one of the county histories that are pretty common from around the end of the 19th c/early 20th c in the US, at least in the midwest. Usually they try to go back to when the county was settled, although often little is known from early days (or at least about people who passed through, so there was no old-timer available to give his or her account or family history). That's one North American side source that could link to earlier sources -- don't know if Canada has similar books (and this settlement was later, from the 1840s mostly).

I'd be curious to try to link to Welsh books about emigrants, actually, and will give more information from the Columbia County account. I know one of the topics discussed is churches (they had a few Welsh language churches), so maybe there is something there. (My ancestors who went there were all from North Wales and apparently all had Welsh as their first language, and it seems as if the early community was largely Welsh-speaking.)

Phoebe Watts
01-03-2018, 05:01 PM
Speaking of books by ministers, I recently obtained (and am excited to read) "The Works of the Rev. Griffith Edwards: Parochial Histories of Llangadfan, Garthbeibio, and Llanerfyl, Montgomeryshire, together with Welsh and English Poetry." It was published in 1895, and Edwards was the vicar of Llangafan from 1863, and apparently purports to give his understanding of the history of the region before then. I have ancestors who lived in Llangadfan and Llanerfyl (they went to the US (Wisconsin) in the late 1840s, although obviously other relatives stayed in Wales).

There's a good history of the Welsh settlement in the part of Wisconsin where they ended up (Columbia County) in one of the county histories that are pretty common from around the end of the 19th c/early 20th c in the US, at least in the midwest. Usually they try to go back to when the county was settled, although often little is known from early days (or at least about people who passed through, so there was no old-timer available to give his or her account or family history). That's one North American side source that could link to earlier sources -- don't know if Canada has similar books (and this settlement was later, from the 1840s mostly).

I'd be curious to try to link to Welsh books about emigrants, actually, and will give more information from the Columbia County account. I know one of the topics discussed is churches (they had a few Welsh language churches), so maybe there is something there. (My ancestors who went there were all from North Wales and apparently all had Welsh as their first language, and it seems as if the early community was largely Welsh-speaking.)

Columbia County, Wisconsin was, as you say, a Welsh settlement. So you should find quite a few references in Welsh language sources. Y Drych, the weekly paper published in America is an obvious place to start. That's free online at http://newspapers.library.wales/home

Some of the books might be useful but difficult to get into, try:

Hanes Cymry America: a'u sefydliadau, eu heglwysi, a'u gweinidogion, ... from 1872 is online on Google books; also
Emigration. Yr ymfudwr: yn cynnwys hanes America ac Australia; yn ... from 1854

homunculus
01-03-2018, 06:55 PM
Have there been any Roman Period Silurian remains found so far that might have some aDna left in them? It'd be interesting to see if there's any unique profiles compared to the general Bell Beaker derived populace or not.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-03-2018, 07:13 PM
Have there been any Roman Period Silurian remains found so far that might have some aDna left in them? It'd be interesting to see if there's any unique profiles compared to the general Bell Beaker derived populace or not.

I haven't come across anything but the Roman references to them appearing Iberian does make you wonder if there was anything distinctive about them.

JonikW
01-04-2018, 11:52 PM
Have there been any Roman Period Silurian remains found so far that might have some aDna left in them? It'd be interesting to see if there's any unique profiles compared to the general Bell Beaker derived populace or not.
Two incomplete skeletons were found at Llanmelin Wood hillfort, thought to belong to the last phase of occupation (1st century BC to 1st century AD). These are the remains of an adult male and an adult female. My source is the slim Cadw book "Caerwent Roman Town". It doesn't say where the bones are now or when they were discovered.

Webb
01-05-2018, 06:07 PM
I did look a bit but there doesn't seem to be much on the distribution of the Rh factor. My mom is negative, I'm positive but my daughter is negative. Obviously I'm heterozygous for that trait, but she got the negative from her father too, and he is of entirely Irish ancestry.

Next to the Basque region for RH negative, I believe the British Isles comes up as second largest number of RH negative folks.

Lirio100
01-05-2018, 08:52 PM
I'm a bad data point for extrapolation :) that's why I mentioned my daughter's father being all Irish ancestry. My mom does have English ancestry but she also has Swedish, Norwegian and German Jewish ancestors. My dad is from English, Welsh and German ancestry, but he's also the source of my Rh+ gene. As I said, I'm a bad data point!

rms2
01-06-2018, 03:19 PM
I am A- like my mother. My father is O+. I have Welsh on both sides (my maternal grandmother was a Morris), but I think Scots ancestry tends to prevail in my mother's autosomal dna. My dad is the main source of my Welsh ancestry. Our surname (Stevens, originally probably Stephens) is Welsh, and my dad's mother was a Pierce. However, apparently my dad also inherited a lot of Scots autosomal dna from his maternal great grandmother, a Nicholson (originally Mac Nicol), at least judging from my DNA Circles at Ancestry. Luck of the autosomal crap shoot.

msmarjoribanks
01-06-2018, 05:59 PM
I'm B-. My mom was B+ (but her mother was Rh - and lost her third child at birth as a result), and my dad is O-. B's somewhat uncommon in most of Europe, slightly more common in Sweden (10%) than the UK (8%), don't know what side of my mother's family it's from. Re the Rh negative, my maternal grandmother's family is largely Scots-Irish/English/Scottish, and father's largely Welsh and English.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-06-2018, 06:35 PM
I'm probably repeating myself. I'm O negative.

01-06-2018, 06:58 PM
I often asked my Dr what blood group I was but never got an answer.
But according to promethease....

O blood group
This genoset defines one of the ABO blood group types, that of type O blood. It is based on the status of the rs8176719 SNP, with the O type predicted by the rs8176719(-;-) genotype

rms2
01-06-2018, 08:56 PM
I often asked my Dr what blood group I was but never got an answer.
But according to promethease....

O blood group
This genoset defines one of the ABO blood group types, that of type O blood. It is based on the status of the rs8176719 SNP, with the O type predicted by the rs8176719(-;-) genotype

We typed our own blood in high school biology. I got A-, and I always wondered if I was right. Years later I donated blood to the Red Cross, and they confirmed that I was a pretty good high school biology student, after all. I was right: A-.

Webb
01-08-2018, 07:18 PM
AB-, which is I believe is one of the rarest.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-08-2018, 08:25 PM
AB-, which is I believe is one of the rarest.

Just as well there are o negative people then, we can give our blood to anyone ( Universal donor) . :)

rms2
01-13-2018, 11:20 PM
This is dedicated to the Welsh patronymic naming system. I can attribute some of my closest 111-marker matches to it.

20751

msmarjoribanks
01-14-2018, 12:05 AM
Heh.

I'm planning a possible trip to Wales this year, so was going through my family locations and decided while I was at it to count up all the separate Jones families.

Father's family (Shropshire). Luckily all the direct lines are intermarried with people with less common names (like Maund).

Then Wales:

Immigrant ancestor: Griffith Jones. His wife was a Jones and his mother was a Jones. (We actually have a decent amount of information about Griffith's family, though, enough to find his grandfather (also Griffith Jones) with a marriage record giving his own father as John Rowland, in 1777 -- the original John!.)

Griffith's daughter married Owen Humphreys, my other known Welsh immigrant ancestor. His mother was a Jones.

Seriously, people? At least Owen's father was named Zechariah, which helped (mother Gaynor).

Lirio100
01-14-2018, 05:20 AM
I can sympathize--I have a Welsh Jones in the family tree too, along with Bowen, another extremely common Welsh surname.

Phoebe Watts
01-15-2018, 06:56 PM
I can sympathize--I have a Welsh Jones in the family tree too, along with Bowen, another extremely common Welsh surname.

I had to smile. Bowen is one of the least common names in my family tree. And it is one of the first lines that I chose to trace because it looked easier than most: relatively localised and not a huge proportion of names in area.

Just a different perspective.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-15-2018, 07:13 PM
I had to smile. Bowen is one of the least common names in my family tree. And it is one of the first lines that I chose to trace because it looked easier than most: relatively localised and not a huge proportion of names in area.

Just a different perspective.

Yes I think you are right some Welsh surnames seem to be heavily concentrated in specific areas. Surprisingly maybe Howells isn't that common and heavily concentrated in certain Counties. Powell of course is a different variation.

Phoebe Watts
01-15-2018, 10:23 PM
Yes of course. You will know that traditional Welsh names like Hywel and Llywelyn formed surnames in the borders and parts of the south where surnames were adopted early. By the time surnames were adopted in the north-west those names had fallen out of use. It seems that the clerics used to register Hywel as Hugh; Llywelyn as Lewis. So Hughes and Lewis are more common surnames in the north-west.

I have been using the surname distribution statistics and maps in "the Surnames of Wales" as a guide. I found some my less common surnames: Watts, Mathias and Cunnick exactly as the book said.

Lirio100
01-16-2018, 06:13 AM
I hadn't realized Bowen was so localized (quick look at a surname map). I suppose I was lucky it was!

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-16-2018, 06:57 AM
Yes of course. You will know that traditional Welsh names like Hywel and Llywelyn formed surnames in the borders and parts of the south where surnames were adopted early. By the time surnames were adopted in the north-west those names had fallen out of use. It seems that the clerics used to register Hywel as Hugh; Llywelyn as Lewis. So Hughes and Lewis are more common surnames in the north-west.

I have been using the surname distribution statistics and maps in "the Surnames of Wales" as a guide. I found some my less common surnames: Watts, Mathias and Cunnick exactly as the book said.

Howells is quite common in Monmouthshire but it's also common in Gloucestershire or rather the Howell version is, more so than Howells. It's possible Howell in that part of the World comes from Breton (Hoel) rather than Welsh influence.
Actually there seems to be a pocket of Howells in East Anglia and my guess is that it relates to the Breton presence and influence there. Of course a name can also reflect local culture/fashion as well as ancestry.
This is from a Manorial Court just over the border into Herefordshire where my paternal ancestors lived. Apparently they were still using the Welsh patronymic system fairly widely after 1550 but it had pretty much gone by 1650 but this was an area closely linked to Wales.

" About 1466

"Wyrkebroke

A court of Elizabeth Delahay there held upon Tuesday next after the feast of St Nicholas in the fifth year of the reign of king Edward the fourth after the conquest.

Jurors

John Regnald

Walter ap Hoell

David Webb

Hugh Yate

John ap Hoell

David Wylot "

avalon
01-16-2018, 04:01 PM
Yes, it is interesting how some Welsh names are quite localised. In my own family tree I have the common widespread ones such as Jones and Williams but there are others which tend to predominate more in North Wales such as Hughes and Parry and then you have ones like Roberts and Ellis which are almost unheard of in the south.

Phoebe Watts
01-16-2018, 04:22 PM
Yes, those areas just east of the border are a good place to find interesting patronymics as well as old names preserved as surnames.

A map showing the reduction in the use of patronymics over time suggests it happened slightly later in Western Herefordshire than in some parts of Wales. The custom lasted longest in the north-west.

My eight Anglesey 3xgreat grandparents were all born between 1785 and 1810. At least three used patronyms. Three of the others were of the first generation to adopt their father's patronym as a "surname". Only one had a longstanding surname. Her ancestor several generations earlier had been land agent to one of the local estates and had adopted their customs.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-16-2018, 04:39 PM
Yes, those areas just east of the border are a good place to find interesting patronymics as well as old names preserved as surnames.

A map showing the reduction in the use of patronymics over time suggests it happened slightly later in Western Herefordshire than in some parts of Wales. The custom lasted longest in the north-west.

My eight Anglesey 3xgreat grandparents were all born between 1785 and 1810. At least three used patronyms. Three of the others were of the first generation to adopt their father's patronym as a "surname". Only one had a longstanding surname. Her ancestor several generations earlier had been land agent to one of the local estates and had adopted their customs.

I understand West Herefordshire particularly Ewyas Lacy in the shadow of the Black Mountains was very isolated, both from the rest of Herefordshire and Wales, poor roads and so on , virtually impassible in Winter. Apparently even the Romans didn't make it there. :) Of course it opened up in the 19th Century with the railways and road improvements.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-16-2018, 05:31 PM
This is an interesting and I thought slightly funny one from the same period because a juror and the offender are probably related :-
Jurors

John ap Hoell gent.

David Wylot

Hugh Yate

David Webbe

David ap Lewis

Under the above





Thomas Wylot made default at this court.

Also they present that Marrgaret ap Hoell Seys did the same .

Also they present that goats are kept there by the said lady contrary to the statute.

Also Mathew Taylor for keeping goats."

The goat lady carries the description Seys (Sais) which is sometimes described as Welsh for Saxon but perhaps might apply to anyone of "foreign" or strange origins.
One of the more noteable pedigrees which has this usage is of David or Davy Gam of Brecon who fought with Henry V at Agincourt and was killed there supposedly defending the King - "Dafydd Gam ap Llywelyn ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ap Einion Sais" - Einion Seis being the relevant ancestor.
Of course I can't help wondering if I may have a connection to the 15th Century "Hoells". I believe one of their number was the Reeve of Ewyas Lacy Castle. There was a "John Howells Gent." who was a juror on the same manorial court in the 1700's. Probably no way of knowing for sure because of the change in naming system.

Phoebe Watts
01-16-2018, 05:42 PM
The goat lady carries the description Seys (Sais) which is sometimes described as Welsh for Saxon but perhaps might apply to anyone of "foreign" or strange origins.
One of the more noteable pedigrees which has this usage is of David or Davy Gam of Brecon who fought with Henry V at Agincourt and was killed there supposedly defending the King - "Dafydd Gam ap Llywelyn ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ap Einion Sais" - Einion Seis being the relevant ancestor.
Of course I can't help wondering if I may have a connection to the 15th Century "Hoells". I believe one of their number was the Reeve of Ewyas Lacy Castle. There was a "John Howells Gent." who was a juror on the same manorial court in the 1700's. Probably no way of knowing for sure because of the change in naming system.

Or as they have obviously Welsh forenames, someone who spoke English or who had lived in "England"?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-16-2018, 06:26 PM
Or as they have obviously Welsh forenames, someone who spoke English or who had lived in "England"?

Difficult to know. Of course here you have a Welsh, Early English and Norman (of various sorts) mix.
Someone whose ancestors maybe arrived in 1066 or around that period or earlier might be pretty assimilated 400 years later, inter-marriage and so on.
It could though just mean someone "anglicised" maybe brought up in England or with an English education possibly as a sort of slightly insulting nickname. "Gam" as in Davy Gam was a nickname meaning lame it wasn't his real name.

Webb
01-18-2018, 04:28 PM
Howells is quite common in Monmouthshire but it's also common in Gloucestershire or rather the Howell version is, more so than Howells. It's possible Howell in that part of the World comes from Breton (Hoel) rather than Welsh influence.
Actually there seems to be a pocket of Howells in East Anglia and my guess is that it relates to the Breton presence and influence there. Of course a name can also reflect local culture/fashion as well as ancestry.
This is from a Manorial Court just over the border into Herefordshire where my paternal ancestors lived. Apparently they were still using the Welsh patronymic system fairly widely after 1550 but it had pretty much gone by 1650 but this was an area closely linked to Wales.

" About 1466

"Wyrkebroke

A court of Elizabeth Delahay there held upon Tuesday next after the feast of St Nicholas in the fifth year of the reign of king Edward the fourth after the conquest.

Jurors

John Regnald

Walter ap Hoell

David Webb

Hugh Yate

John ap Hoell

David Wylot "

Webb? Very interesting.

Phoebe Watts
01-18-2018, 05:05 PM
Difficult to know. Of course here you have a Welsh, Early English and Norman (of various sorts) mix.
Someone whose ancestors maybe arrived in 1066 or around that period or earlier might be pretty assimilated 400 years later, inter-marriage and so on.
It could though just mean someone "anglicised" maybe brought up in England or with an English education possibly as a sort of slightly insulting nickname. "Gam" as in Davy Gam was a nickname meaning lame it wasn't his real name.

Lots of these descriptive nicknames were quite insulting weren't they? Perhaps Sais is an exception though. The entry for "Sais, Sayce, Seys" in Welsh Surnames by TJ Morgan says that "... as an epithet attached to a pers. name it [Sais] probably meant 'able to speak English'." It goes on to say "There is no reason to believe that it had any meaning of contempt."

Robert1
01-18-2018, 07:24 PM
Difficult to know. Of course here you have a Welsh, Early English and Norman (of various sorts) mix.
Someone whose ancestors maybe arrived in 1066 or around that period or earlier might be pretty assimilated 400 years later, inter-marriage and so on.
It could though just mean someone "anglicised" maybe brought up in England or with an English education possibly as a sort of slightly insulting nickname. "Gam" as in Davy Gam was a nickname meaning lame it wasn't his real name.

As a side note, "Gam" also could be embarrassing for a man as it could mean shapely, attractive woman's leg! In fact there was an attractive 1960s French singing group Les Gams. The name was formed from the first letter of each singer's first name and no doubt arranged as gams because that also meant legs in French. This is a fun video from 1963 of their version of the US group The Exciters' "He's Got The Power". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnNqL_r1uP4

Saetro
01-19-2018, 04:56 AM
Lots of these descriptive nicknames were quite insulting weren't they? Perhaps Sais is an exception though. The entry for "Sais, Sayce, Seys" in Welsh Surnames by TJ Morgan says that "... as an epithet attached to a pers. name it [Sais] probably meant 'able to speak English'." It goes on to say "There is no reason to believe that it had any meaning of contempt."

Maybe it had only that meaning.
At the same time on the other foot "Welsh" was not neutral.
As in the rhyme "Taffy was a Welshman", although that comes back to bite the teller, it is still an insult: don't steal from a Welshman who has nothing.
And when I did not shut the door as a child "Are you Welsh?!" implied that the Welsh were too poor to have doors and only had cloth doors that shut themselves or lived in tents (this may have come from a mining town my ancestors came from that had parts named for their Welsh, Cornish, Scottish inhabitants : neighbourhoods of Kooringa (local native name), Llwchwr, Aberdeen, New Aberdeen, Redruth and Graham, when my ancestors had worked their way up to renting a stone cottage).

Perhaps the Welsh were more noble people and did not retaliate.

Certainly in modern times "Sais" can be a term of opprobrium, but some English worked hard to earn the right to that. Unfortunately.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-19-2018, 06:23 AM
Maybe it had only that meaning.
At the same time on the other foot "Welsh" was not neutral.
As in the rhyme "Taffy was a Welshman", although that comes back to bite the teller, it is still an insult: don't steal from a Welshman who has nothing.
And when I did not shut the door as a child "Are you Welsh?!" implied that the Welsh were too poor to have doors and only had cloth doors that shut themselves or lived in tents (this may have come from a mining town my ancestors came from that had parts named for their Welsh, Cornish, Scottish inhabitants : neighbourhoods of Kooringa (local native name), Llwchwr, Aberdeen, New Aberdeen, Redruth and Graham, when my ancestors had worked their way up to renting a stone cottage).

Perhaps the Welsh were more noble people and did not retaliate.

Certainly in modern times "Sais" can be a term of opprobrium, but some English worked hard to earn the right to that. Unfortunately.

In modern times it's often used in the context of Saxon/English and not usually complimentary. I'm not a Welsh speaker but I guess languages evolve and meanings can change over time. The surname Seys is supposedly derived from a Welsh origin.
Certainly in past times the Welsh were literally second class citizens denied the same rights as English people.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-19-2018, 06:38 AM
As a side note, "Gam" also could be embarrassing for a man as it could mean shapely, attractive woman's leg! In fact there was an attractive 1960s French singing group Les Gams. The name was formed from the first letter of each singer's first name and no doubt arranged as gams because that also meant legs in French. This is a fun video from 1963 of their version of the US group The Exciters' "He's Got The Power". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnNqL_r1uP4

As far as I know it's not the same usage in Welsh. The term "gammy leg" meaning lame was used in my youth but I don't hear it now. It could also mean something like a squint I believe. Some say Davy Gam Ap Einion Seys was the inspiration for Fluellen in Shakespeare's Henry V and in Olivier's film of the play Fluellen is portrayed with a squint.
"If your Majesties is remembered of it, the Welshmen did good service in a garden where leeks did grow, wearing leeks in their Monmouth caps, which, your Majesty know, to this hour is an honorable badge of the service. And I do believe your Majesty takes no scorn to wear the leek upon Saint Tavy’s day." :)

20915

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-19-2018, 09:24 AM
I hadn't realized Bowen was so localized (quick look at a surname map). I suppose I was lucky it was!

Slightly off - topic but because of your Nantyglo connections I thought you might be interested in this Video (part 2 should follow on).
An American gentleman visits Nantyglo, I assume he has connections. I think he struggles a bit with the local accent. :) Trevor Rowson who appears in the video was a well-known local historian who advised author Alexander Cordell ( Rape of the Fair Country etc).


https://youtu.be/ybkuFWDkKcU

Phoebe Watts
01-19-2018, 01:20 PM
Gam as in Davy Gam is from cam, the Welsh word for crooked. So a squint fits. The term gammy probably comes from an Irish source though. Again from cam meaning crooked.

Phoebe Watts
01-19-2018, 01:29 PM
In modern times it's often used in the context of Saxon/English and not usually complimentary. I'm not a Welsh speaker but I guess languages evolve and meanings can change over time. The surname Seys is supposedly derived from a Welsh origin.
Certainly in past times the Welsh were literally second class citizens denied the same rights as English people.

Yes of course you are right - I could have expressed myself better. The statement "no reason to believe that it had any meaning of contempt" is only about the use of Sais as an epithet attached to a personal name (of someone who is Welsh).

Lirio100
01-19-2018, 03:51 PM
Thank you, John! I watched both. I think Hermon Baptist church must have been the one my great-grandmother attended. The shot at the end of the second part showed some miner's lanterns hanging from the ceiling--I have a reproduction of those, from Aberstryth. Christmas present :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-19-2018, 06:05 PM
Thank you, John! I watched both. I think Hermon Baptist church must have been the one my great-grandmother attended. The shot at the end of the second part showed some miner's lanterns hanging from the ceiling--I have a reproduction of those, from Aberstryth. Christmas present :)

Unfortunately Hermon has been demolished but I knew it well - it was on my street. :)

20919

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-19-2018, 06:26 PM
Yes of course you are right - I could have expressed myself better. The statement "no reason to believe that it had any meaning of contempt" is only about the use of Sais as an epithet attached to a personal name (of someone who is Welsh).

No problem. :)
Do you have any thoughts on the linguistic origins of the Cecil surname please? I know it is a name of Welsh origin and there was a Welsh Kingdom "Seisyllwg" possibly named after Seisyll ap Clydog, 8th century King of Ceredigion.
Various surname spellings Sitsyllt, Saissil ,etc. one theory it may have originated in the latin name "Caecilius".
I have wondered if there could be any connection to Sais/Seys but haven't found anything to suggest such a connection.

Phoebe Watts
01-19-2018, 08:26 PM
No problem. :)
Do you have any thoughts on the linguistic origins of the Cecil surname please? I know it is a name of Welsh origin and there was a Welsh Kingdom "Seisyllwg" possibly named after Seisyll ap Clydog, 8th century King of Ceredigion.
Various surname spellings Sitsyllt, Saissil ,etc. one theory it may have originated in the latin name "Caecilius".
I have wondered if there could be any connection to Sais/Seys but haven't found anything to suggest such a connection.

The TJ Morgan book has a column and a half on this name and I'm sure you'll know about the pedigrees linking Cecil to Seisyll. There seems to have been quite a debate!

I was just wondering whether the name Seisyll is so old that it predates a lot of the interaction between the British and the Sais/Saeson? The use of Sais in patronymic names such as Davy Gam's is quite a bit later.

msmarjoribanks
01-19-2018, 09:23 PM
Maybe it had only that meaning.
At the same time on the other foot "Welsh" was not neutral.
As in the rhyme "Taffy was a Welshman", although that comes back to bite the teller, it is still an insult: don't steal from a Welshman who has nothing.
And when I did not shut the door as a child "Are you Welsh?!" implied that the Welsh were too poor to have doors and only had cloth doors that shut themselves or lived in tents (this may have come from a mining town my ancestors came from that had parts named for their Welsh, Cornish, Scottish inhabitants : neighbourhoods of Kooringa (local native name), Llwchwr, Aberdeen, New Aberdeen, Redruth and Graham, when my ancestors had worked their way up to renting a stone cottage).

Perhaps the Welsh were more noble people and did not retaliate.

Certainly in modern times "Sais" can be a term of opprobrium, but some English worked hard to earn the right to that. Unfortunately.

On insults, I always thought this was an interesting snapshot of national strereotypes (from Merry Wives of Windsor):

"He will trust his wife, he will not be jealous. I will rather trust a Fleming with my butter, Parson Hugh the Welshman with my cheese, an Irishman with my aquavitae bottle, or a thief to walk my ambling gelding, than my wife with herself."

I used to always forget whether the Welshman was supposed to be excessive with the cheese or with the butter, and then out of the blue happened upon this blog post about a medieval (or early modern) joke: http://nunastic.blogspot.com/2015/02/storytime-why-there-are-no-welshmen-in.html

"I find written among old stories how God made Saint Peter port of Heaven, and how God, in his goodness soon after his suffering on the cross allowed many men to come to the kingdom of heaven who very little deserved it. So at this time there were in heaven a lot of Welshmen, who troubled all the rest with their boasting and chatter. So God said to Saint Peter that he was fed up with them, and that he’d be very glad to have them out of heaven. Saint Peter replied to him, “Good lord, I guarantee that it will be done in no time.” So Saint Peter went outside the gates of heaven and shouted in a loud voice, “Cause bobe!” which is as much as to say, “Roasted cheese.”

When they heard this the Welshmen ran out of heaven at great speed. And when Saint Peter saw that they were all outside, he quickly went in to Heaven and locked the door, and so he barred all the Welshmen out."

Saetro
01-19-2018, 11:10 PM
As far as I know it's not the same usage in Welsh. The term "gammy leg" meaning lame was used in my youth but I don't hear it now.

Such sayings can continue within some families - sometimes for generations, by which time the true meaning and certainly the origin has been forgotten.
"Gammy leg" was a saying of my mother-in-law. Yes, she did have Welsh ancestry.
But a more obscure saying from my father's side was still used by my father and grandfather even though they did not realise that its origins referred to J S Bach (d.1750)! It was only when I happened to study the early life of the composer that its meaning became clear.

Friends of Scottish origin have some obscure sayings.
We are trying to find out their origins and true meanings and continue their use in future generations.

Dewsloth
01-20-2018, 12:37 AM
As far as I know it's not the same usage in Welsh. The term "gammy leg" meaning lame was used in my youth but I don't hear it now. It could also mean something like a squint I believe. Some say Davy Gam Ap Einion Seys was the inspiration for Fluellen in Shakespeare's Henry V and in Olivier's film of the play Fluellen is portrayed with a squint.
"If your Majesties is remembered of it, the Welshmen did good service in a garden where leeks did grow, wearing leeks in their Monmouth caps, which, your Majesty know, to this hour is an honorable badge of the service. And I do believe your Majesty takes no scorn to wear the leek upon Saint Tavy’s day." :)

20915


Such sayings can continue within some families - sometimes for generations, by which time the true meaning and certainly the origin has been forgotten.
"Gammy leg" was a saying of my mother-in-law. Yes, she did have Welsh ancestry.
But a more obscure saying from my father's side was still used by my father and grandfather even though they did not realise that its origins referred to J S Bach (d.1750)! It was only when I happened to study the early life of the composer that its meaning became clear.

Friends of Scottish origin have some obscure sayings.
We are trying to find out their origins and true meanings and continue their use in future generations.

In the movie Coraline, Miss Spink says to Miss Forcible "With your gammy legs? It's nearly 2 miles to the theater." The movie is based on a story by Neil Gaiman, but he's not Welsh ;)

rms2
01-20-2018, 03:48 AM
What about the old slang term "gams" for legs?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-20-2018, 07:09 AM
On insults, I always thought this was an interesting snapshot of national strereotypes (from Merry Wives of Windsor):

"He will trust his wife, he will not be jealous. I will rather trust a Fleming with my butter, Parson Hugh the Welshman with my cheese, an Irishman with my aquavitae bottle, or a thief to walk my ambling gelding, than my wife with herself."

I used to always forget whether the Welshman was supposed to be excessive with the cheese or with the butter, and then out of the blue happened upon this blog post about a medieval (or early modern) joke: http://nunastic.blogspot.com/2015/02/storytime-why-there-are-no-welshmen-in.html

"I find written among old stories how God made Saint Peter port of Heaven, and how God, in his goodness soon after his suffering on the cross allowed many men to come to the kingdom of heaven who very little deserved it. So at this time there were in heaven a lot of Welshmen, who troubled all the rest with their boasting and chatter. So God said to Saint Peter that he was fed up with them, and that he’d be very glad to have them out of heaven. Saint Peter replied to him, “Good lord, I guarantee that it will be done in no time.” So Saint Peter went outside the gates of heaven and shouted in a loud voice, “Cause bobe!” which is as much as to say, “Roasted cheese.”

When they heard this the Welshmen ran out of heaven at great speed. And when Saint Peter saw that they were all outside, he quickly went in to Heaven and locked the door, and so he barred all the Welshmen out."

Heaven is reserved for the less fortunate like the English - we already live in God's country. ;)
I understand after Henry Tudor came to the throne attitudes to the Welsh started to soften a little, not so much of the "wild and warlike". This is reflected to some extent in Shakespeare with some fairly comic Welsh characters. I understand a standing joke was the Welsh carrying mousetraps to protect their cheese. The famous Welsh rarebit :)
The reality was probably based on the relative poverty of many and the use of animals to raise money rather than to eat, so a reliance on bread and cheese and not so much meat. It was probably exaggerated of course.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-20-2018, 07:36 AM
In the movie Coraline, Miss Spink says to Miss Forcible "With your gammy legs? It's nearly 2 miles to the theater." The movie is based on a story by Neil Gaiman, but he's not Welsh ;)

I'm one of those irritating people who has to try and find the "right" answer - I have failed on this one. :) If anyone can come up with a certain origin, great but different sources seem to say different things. I suspect it's origin lies in a celtic language.
Game/Gammy/Gimpy - suggested origins include :-

related to game birds, particularly fighting cocks which may have been prone to leg injuries. There still are "Game Birds" in poultry breeds and cockerels fight mainly with their legs and feet.
Collins English Dictionary
"Gammy - British slang
(esp of the leg) malfunctioning, injured, or lame; game.
Word origin of 'gammy'
C19: from Shelta gyamyath bad, altered form of Irish cam crooked; see game". A suggested 19th Century origin is obviously wrong as we know from Davy Gam it was in use at least as far back as the 1300's. I had to look Shelta up, I understand it's a traveller language
associated with Ireland.

Some sources seem to say an Irish Celtic origin, others Welsh (maybe both). If anyone has a better source or definition, glad to hear it. :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-20-2018, 07:56 AM
Such sayings can continue within some families - sometimes for generations, by which time the true meaning and certainly the origin has been forgotten.
"Gammy leg" was a saying of my mother-in-law. Yes, she did have Welsh ancestry.
But a more obscure saying from my father's side was still used by my father and grandfather even though they did not realise that its origins referred to J S Bach (d.1750)! It was only when I happened to study the early life of the composer that its meaning became clear.

Friends of Scottish origin have some obscure sayings.
We are trying to find out their origins and true meanings and continue their use in future generations.

This isn't a Welsh speaking area although there are Welsh medium schools here now.
There were quite a few Welsh phrases (and English West Country terms) in use when I was young that I doubt will be heard when my generation has moved on.
An adult would say to a child about to pick up something disgusting "ach-y-fi" neither adult nor child knew what the words meant but we knew it was bad. :) There were many such terms. We will all become a culturally uniform beige one day. :)
'ach-y-fi'
"Welsh, probably from ach, achy general exclamation of disgust + fi I, me"

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-20-2018, 08:13 AM
The TJ Morgan book has a column and a half on this name and I'm sure you'll know about the pedigrees linking Cecil to Seisyll. There seems to have been quite a debate!

I was just wondering whether the name Seisyll is so old that it predates a lot of the interaction between the British and the Sais/Saeson? The use of Sais in patronymic names such as Davy Gam's is quite a bit later.

Yes I've tried to look into the Cecil origins for obvious reasons. The pedigree isn't reliable much before the 1400's. Unsubstantiated claims of a possible Norman origin (Robert Sitsylt) about 1090 but Sitsyltt doesn't sound Norman, (we are U106 of course). There was a Saisil or Sassil recorded in Herefordshire in the Domesday book but this forename may not mean anything.

If you come across anything that may be reliable I would be very interested. It looks to me at the moment the Cecil rise from relative obscurity was connected to the Tudors beginning with Henry VII and Bosworth.
My only hope at the moment is more Y test matches from within the UK or possibly continental Europe. :) Thanks for the reply.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwibvLKOi-bYAhWOY1AKHQE5BfgQFggpMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fyba.llgc.org.uk%2Fen%2Fs-CECI-ALL-1450.html&usg=AOvVaw2y-3P06ducP6es1jF89pSd

Phoebe Watts
01-20-2018, 10:53 AM
Yes, it is interesting how some Welsh names are quite localised. In my own family tree I have the common widespread ones such as Jones and Williams but there are others which tend to predominate more in North Wales such as Hughes and Parry and then you have ones like Roberts and Ellis which are almost unheard of in the south.

I have all the most common Welsh surnames, and some of the less common. Not Ellis from your list. But I see that Ellis is most common in Meirionnydd and Montgomeryshire and I don't have any known ancestry there.

Jones is the most common name in my tree as you might expect, but even those families are not always impossible to trace. The surname distribution patterns are a good place to start. But even with a very common name, using forenames, religion, occupation etc. can help.

We have just traced 5x great-grandparents named Williams in Bangor in the 1780s. Williams covered 15-20% of the population in that area in about that time. The brick wall was with their grand-daughter Elizabeth Williams living in the neighbouring parish. After making quite a few assumptions we found that we could link the relatively uncommon names Henry and Rees from among her children to a couple in Bangor at the right time. There was a will mentioning a daughter called Elizabeth; they were the right religious denomination and there were other things that fitted. Then there was a DNA match with someone who had tested in America to confirm it.

corner
01-20-2018, 02:32 PM
I'm one of those irritating people who has to try and find the "right" answer - I have failed on this one. :) If anyone can come up with a certain origin, great but different sources seem to say different things. I suspect it's origin lies in a celtic language.
Game/Gammy/Gimpy - suggested origins include :-

related to game birds, particularly fighting cocks which may have been prone to leg injuries. There still are "Game Birds" in poultry breeds and cockerels fight mainly with their legs and feet.
Collins English Dictionary
"Gammy - British slang
(esp of the leg) malfunctioning, injured, or lame; game.
Word origin of 'gammy'
C19: from Shelta gyamyath bad, altered form of Irish cam crooked; see game". A suggested 19th Century origin is obviously wrong as we know from Davy Gam it was in use at least as far back as the 1300's. I had to look Shelta up, I understand it's a traveller language
associated with Ireland.

Some sources seem to say an Irish Celtic origin, others Welsh (maybe both). If anyone has a better source or definition, glad to hear it. :)Gam reminds me of when I was a lad here in Yorkshire we'd 'make gam' - it meant making fun out of something/someone. I wondered if it might be a rare survival of celtic on the east coast but here apparently gammish and gamsome means 'frolicsome, or having a turn for sport, or the pursuits of the chase' according to A Glossary of Yorkshire Words and Phrases, 1855. So the gam (in Yorkshire at least) in 'mekkin gam' is probably a word related to 'game' and translated as 'making sport' in Yorkshire dialect.

rms2
01-20-2018, 02:52 PM
Here's something on gam from Dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gams):



Word Origin and History for gam Expand
n.
"legs," 1781, low slang, probably the same word as gamb "leg of an animal on a coat of arms" (1727) and ultimately from Middle English gamb "leg," from Old North French (see gammon ). Now, in American English slang, especially with reference to well-formed legs of pretty women, but this was not the original sense.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-20-2018, 05:18 PM
Here's something on gam from Dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gams):

Possibly there are two different origins for similar words. From a celtic word "cam" meaning crooked (not necessarily a leg) and Gam which does seem to relate to legs.
I was looking at the word "gambol" as in "the lambs gambolled".
Definitions "early 16th century: alteration of gambade (see gambado1), via French from Italian gambata ‘trip up’, from gamba ‘leg’."
" from Late Latin gamba hoof, hock, "

Saetro
01-20-2018, 07:48 PM
I understand after Henry Tudor came to the throne attitudes to the Welsh started to soften a little, not so much of the "wild and warlike". This is reflected to some extent in Shakespeare with some fairly comic Welsh characters.
..
I understand a standing joke was the Welsh carrying mousetraps to protect their cheese. The famous Welsh rarebit :)
The reality was probably based on the relative poverty of many and the use of animals to raise money rather than to eat, so a reliance on bread and cheese and not so much meat. It was probably exaggerated of course.

I wonder whether the previous wildness of the Welsh was softened by these jokes, or perhaps mothers in border areas told their children not to go too far or the Welsh would catch and eat them, and the jokes came later to soften this.

People who own land stay where they are.
People with a good living usually ditto.
Therefore, those that move tend to be poor: the poor Irish who went to Scotland in C19, or the displaced (and therefore poor) lowland farming Scots who went to East Anglia a little earlier as farm labourers, and so on. In the areas they move to, they are the only people of that ethnicity known. In calling their nation poor, people are partly referring to the particular group nearby, and partly using them as exemplars of their nation.


C19: from Shelta gyamyath bad, altered form of Irish cam crooked;
Scots have surnames:
Campbell - crooked mouth
Cameron - crooked nose

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-20-2018, 08:36 PM
I wonder whether the previous wildness of the Welsh was softened by these jokes, or perhaps mothers in border areas told their children not to go too far or the Welsh would catch and eat them, and the jokes came later to soften this.

People who own land stay where they are.
People with a good living usually ditto.
Therefore, those that move tend to be poor: the poor Irish who went to Scotland in C19, or the displaced (and therefore poor) lowland farming Scots who went to East Anglia a little earlier as farm labourers, and so on. In the areas they move to, they are the only people of that ethnicity known. In calling their nation poor, people are partly referring to the particular group nearby, and partly using them as exemplars of their nation.


Scots have surnames:
Campbell - crooked mouth
Cameron - crooked nose

George Borrow wrote a popular book in the mid-1800's " Wild Wales" based on a tour he did, so I think it was still regarded as remote and strange by many English people, or at least parts of it were. I think it was more in a romantic, picturesque, sense then.
It was the industrial revolution that really changed Wales I think, before then Welsh was spoken by most people even in the East so it must have seemed like a foreign country.
Interesting regarding the Scottish surnames.

Anglo-Celtic
01-21-2018, 12:31 AM
Jones is the most common name in my tree as you might expect, but even those families are not always impossible to trace.

I have enough Jones in my tree to start a Welsh football team. I just hope they're not all related.

rms2
01-21-2018, 03:31 AM
We have some Jones in our little Welsh Borders haplotype cluster. One is super interested, but he is the only one who has joined our project, and I haven't even been able to talk him into the Big Y yet.

I think having some Jones in your group is like a badge of certified Welshness.

01-21-2018, 08:03 AM
Yes we all seem to have Jones’s in the tree, even me. Question, the saying, “keeping up with the Jones’s“, is that originally a US saying or?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-21-2018, 09:57 AM
Yes we all seem to have Jones’s in the tree, even me. Question, the saying, “keeping up with the Jones’s“, is that originally a US saying or?

Looked it up, seems it is ;-
"The phrase originates with the comic strip Keeping Up with the Joneses, created by Arthur R. "Pop" Momand in 1913. The strip ran until 1940 in The New York World and various other newspapers. The strip depicts the social climbing McGinis family, who struggle to "keep up" with their neighbors, the Joneses of the title."

Worth remembering maybe Jones is also the second most common surname in England after Smith. :)

JonikW
01-21-2018, 05:30 PM
George Borrow wrote a popular book in the mid-1800's " Wild Wales" based on a tour he did, so I think it was still regarded as remote and strange by many English people, or at least parts of it were. I think it was more in a romantic, picturesque, sense then.
It was the industrial revolution that really changed Wales I think, before then Welsh was spoken by most people even in the East so it must have seemed like a foreign country.
Interesting regarding the Scottish surnames.

The Borrow book has some fascinating insights, especially given that he spoke Welsh. On the language east of Newport in 1854 he says: "Desirous of knowing whereabouts in these parts the Welsh language ceased I interrogated several people whom I met. First spoke to Esther Williams. She told me she came from Pennow some miles farther on, that she could speak Welsh, and that indeed all the people could for at least eight miles to the east of Newport. This latter assertion of hers was, however, anything but corroborated by a young woman, with a pitcher on her head, whom I shortly afterwards met, for she informed me that she could speak no Welsh, and that for one who could speak it, from where I was to the place where it ceased altogether, there were ten who could not. I believe the real fact is that about half the people for seven or eight miles to the east of Newport speak Welsh, more or less, as about half those whom I met and addressed in Welsh answered me in that tongue."

JonikW
01-21-2018, 06:15 PM
Talking of Joneses and surname hurdles, my mother was a Jones from Monmouthshire with Breconshire roots and my father's mother was a Breconshire Lewis who had a Watkins grandmother. Despite those three common Welsh surnames I've had some great luck with cousin matches and working out who we have in common. I wonder if anyone here has had the same.

On23andme I match as a third or fourth cousin with a man with the surname Davies. We've both traced our families back a little way and when we got in touch we quickly worked out that our common great great grandfather was Mark Jones from Llanvair Discoed, born in the 1820s. (Incidentally and perhaps a bit worryingly! I have plenty of Welsh distant cousins where I match on both my mother's and father's sides on 23andme).

On FTDNA I got in touch with a match and we worked out we have a common Watkins ancestor from the Capel-y-ffin area of Breconshire in the early 19th century. Moreover, one weekend I sent her some handwritten family histories compiled by my late grandmother in the 1970s. The lady looked through her own papers and at the end of the weekend sent me back a letter written by my grandmother in the early 1970s thanking them for a family reunion. They must have traced each other through a paper trail at that time. I was very moved to see that familiar handwriting - worth the price of the DNA test alone.

Has anyone else had similar successes despite the Welsh surname problem?

msmarjoribanks
01-21-2018, 07:55 PM
Yes we all seem to have Jones’s in the tree, even me. Question, the saying, “keeping up with the Jones’s“, is that originally a US saying or?

I'd always heard it was originally about the family of Edith Wharton (nee Jones). Wiki has both that explanation and the other, so I'll quote this one:

"An alternative explanation is that the Joneses of the saying refer to the wealthy family of Edith Wharton's father, the Joneses. The Joneses were a prominent New York family with substantial interests in Chemical Bank as a result of marrying the daughters of the bank's founder, John Mason. The Joneses and other rich New Yorkers began to build country villas in the Hudson Valley around Rhinecliff and Rhinebeck, which had belonged to the Livingstons, another prominent New York family to whom the Joneses were related. The houses became grander and grander. In 1853, Elizabeth Schermerhorn Jones built a 24-room gothic villa called Wyndcliffe described by Henry Winthrop Sargent in 1859 as being very fine in the style of a Scottish castle, but by Edith Wharton, Elizabeth's niece, as a gloomy monstrosity. The villa reportedly spurred more building, including a house by William B. Astor (married to a Jones cousin), a phenomenon described as "keeping up with the Joneses". The phrase is also associated with another of Edith Wharton's aunts, Mary Mason Jones, who built a large mansion at Fifth Avenue and 57th Street, then undeveloped. Wharton portrays her affectionately in The Age of Innocence as Mrs. Manson Mingott, "calmly waiting for fashion to flow north".

A slightly different version is that the phrase refers to the grand lifestyle of the Joneses who by the mid-century were numerous and wealthy, thanks to the Chemical Bank and Mason connection. It was their relation Mrs William Backhouse Astor, Jr who began the "patriarchs balls", the origin of "The Four Hundred", the list of the society elite who were invited. By then the Joneses were being eclipsed by the massive wealth of the Astors, Vanderbilts and others but the four hundred list published in 1892 contained many of the Joneses and their relations—old money still mattered."

msmarjoribanks
01-21-2018, 08:10 PM
We've had some success tracing my Jones families back (parish records and wills and some property ownership has been helpful, as well as finding some detailed information in naturalization records and relatives with distinctive name patterns). However, what I have had no success on is finding DNA matches to relatives other than the ones who also immigrated to the US. I think the connection might be too remote (the Welsh side of my family came to the US in the 1840s) or else just not enough have tested, probably a combination.

Before the DNA testing, a cousin of mine tracked down Jones relatives in England (descended from my Shropshire Joneses, although my branch moved to the London area in the mid 1800s), and got a copy of a letter written by my ancestor who came to the US in 1870, as well as a number of photos, and a prize he got for Latin at school, and information about all his siblings. The letter (to his younger sister) is interesting, written when he was in a cabin in Wyoming basically snowed in. So far as I can tell he grew up reasonably privileged in Sydenham, and then went to Canada and then into the western US in the 1870s (in his early 20s) and became a surveyor in the middle of nowhere, basically. He tried to be a farmer in eastern WA, that failed (he married into the Welsh side of my family there), and then ended up a grain dealer and so far as I can tell disappeared -- we don't know where he died or exactly what happened to him, although his wife remarried and he had a number of children before the disappearance.

JonikW
01-21-2018, 09:01 PM
We've had some success tracing my Jones families back (parish records and wills and some property ownership has been helpful, as well as finding some detailed information in naturalization records and relatives with distinctive name patterns). However, what I have had no success on is finding DNA matches to relatives other than the ones who also immigrated to the US. I think the connection might be too remote (the Welsh side of my family came to the US in the 1840s) or else just not enough have tested, probably a combination.

Before the DNA testing, a cousin of mine tracked down Jones relatives in England (descended from my Shropshire Joneses, although my branch moved to the London area in the mid 1800s), and got a copy of a letter written by my ancestor who came to the US in 1870, as well as a number of photos, and a prize he got for Latin at school, and information about all his siblings. The letter (to his younger sister) is interesting, written when he was in a cabin in Wyoming basically snowed in. So far as I can tell he grew up reasonably privileged in Sydenham, and then went to Canada and then into the western US in the 1870s (in his early 20s) and became a surveyor in the middle of nowhere, basically. He tried to be a farmer in eastern WA, that failed (he married into the Welsh side of my family there), and then ended up a grain dealer and so far as I can tell disappeared -- we don't know where he died or exactly what happened to him, although his wife remarried and he had a number of children before the disappearance.

I have an FTDNA match with a charming American chap with the surname Morris whose Welsh family arrived in Pennsylvania in the 19th century. He has several Welsh lines but the only one that ties to me (on his Morris line, a surname I'm unaware of in my tree) was from Llangattock, in my family area of the Brecon Beacons. In fact, the father of the Mark Jones that I mentioned was a Philip Jones. I don't know where Philip came from but of the three candidates I can find, one was from Llangattock. Mr Morris and I can't work out who our common ancestor was, or even their surname though.

Saetro
01-21-2018, 11:16 PM
Yes we all seem to have Jones’s in the tree, even me. Question, the saying, “keeping up with the Jones’s“, is that originally a US saying or?

Yes, it's a US saying.


JohnHowellsTyrfro said:
Looked it up, seems it is ;-
"The phrase originates with the comic strip Keeping Up with the Joneses, created by Arthur R. "Pop" Momand in 1913. The strip ran until 1940 in The New York World and various other newspapers. The strip depicts the social climbing McGinis family, who struggle to "keep up" with their neighbors, the Joneses of the title."

Except that people were saying it before this - in the previous century.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Wharton for one supporting reference.
Edith Wharton nee Jones was certainly born into a family of trend setters.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-22-2018, 07:49 AM
The Borrow book has some fascinating insights, especially given that he spoke Welsh. On the language east of Newport in 1854 he says: "Desirous of knowing whereabouts in these parts the Welsh language ceased I interrogated several people whom I met. First spoke to Esther Williams. She told me she came from Pennow some miles farther on, that she could speak Welsh, and that indeed all the people could for at least eight miles to the east of Newport. This latter assertion of hers was, however, anything but corroborated by a young woman, with a pitcher on her head, whom I shortly afterwards met, for she informed me that she could speak no Welsh, and that for one who could speak it, from where I was to the place where it ceased altogether, there were ten who could not. I believe the real fact is that about half the people for seven or eight miles to the east of Newport speak Welsh, more or less, as about half those whom I met and addressed in Welsh answered me in that tongue."

The 1850's is well into the industrial revolution, perhaps he would have found a different picture in the late 1700's. I haven't counted but where I am in the Monmouthshire valleys many of the early gravestones are in Welsh. Of course some of the people could have come from elsewhere in Wales.
I would guess that corner to the East of Newport was pretty anglicised early on. Good agricultural land there and very accessible compared to the remoter parts. The place names there tell their own story of course e.g. Penhow :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-22-2018, 08:00 AM
Talking of Joneses and surname hurdles, my mother was a Jones from Monmouthshire with Breconshire roots and my father's mother was a Breconshire Lewis who had a Watkins grandmother. Despite those three common Welsh surnames I've had some great luck with cousin matches and working out who we have in common. I wonder if anyone here has had the same.

On23andme I match as a third or fourth cousin with a man with the surname Davies. We've both traced our families back a little way and when we got in touch we quickly worked out that our common great great grandfather was Mark Jones from Llanvair Discoed, born in the 1820s. (Incidentally and perhaps a bit worryingly! I have plenty of Welsh distant cousins where I match on both my mother's and father's sides on 23andme).

On FTDNA I got in touch with a match and we worked out we have a common Watkins ancestor from the Capel-y-ffin area of Breconshire in the early 19th century. Moreover, one weekend I sent her some handwritten family histories compiled by my late grandmother in the 1970s. The lady looked through her own papers and at the end of the weekend sent me back a letter written by my grandmother in the early 1970s thanking them for a family reunion. They must have traced each other through a paper trail at that time. I was very moved to see that familiar handwriting - worth the price of the DNA test alone.

Has anyone else had similar successes despite the Welsh surname problem?

I've managed to connect with people in America and Australia through DNA matches to my Lloyd family branch (a large family) from Radnorshire.
The Americans were thrilled because they suspected a connection to a specific Lloyd but had nothing on paper to prove it. I was also able to take them back a couple of hundred years in the Lloyd ancestry. I was really pleased for them it worked out that way.
On the other hand I have mysterious matches I can't tie up with a paper trail. I suspect many of the gaps are through the female side where the maiden name isn't known. I have recently found out that one of my paternal Jones married a Griffiths so that may help a bit.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-22-2018, 08:21 AM
I have an FTDNA match with a charming American chap with the surname Morris whose Welsh family arrived in Pennsylvania in the 19th century. He has several Welsh lines but the only one that ties to me (on his Morris line, a surname I'm unaware of in my tree) was from Llangattock, in my family area of the Brecon Beacons. In fact, the father of the Mark Jones that I mentioned was a Philip Jones. I don't know where Philip came from but of the three candidates I can find, one was from Llangattock. Mr Morris and I can't work out who our common ancestor was, or even their surname though.

My great grandmother Sabiah Jones of Nantyglo - I'm 95% sure her father was a Thomas Jones of Llangattock. I need to look further into that though and there were probably plenty of Jones around Llangattock which is a parish as well as a village I think.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-22-2018, 08:24 AM
Yes, it's a US saying.



Except that people were saying it before this - in the previous century.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Wharton for one supporting reference.
Edith Wharton nee Jones was certainly born into a family of trend setters.

I know it's a very common saying in the UK, whether it came over from America or they pinched it, I don't know. ;)

JonikW
01-22-2018, 09:03 AM
The 1850's is well into the industrial revolution, perhaps he would have found a different picture in the late 1700's. I haven't counted but where I am in the Monmouthshire valleys many of the early gravestones are in Welsh. Of course some of the people could have come from elsewhere in Wales.
I would guess that corner to the East of Newport was pretty anglicised early on. Good agricultural land there and very accessible compared to the remoter parts. The place names there tell their own story of course e.g. Penhow :)
I'm sure you're right. The old court house at Llanvair Discoed, some miles east of Newport, has an inscription in Welsh from 1635. By Borrow's day this would have been right on the edge of the area where he said half of people spoke Welsh.

Phoebe Watts
01-22-2018, 01:18 PM
I'm sure you're right. The old court house at Llanvair Discoed, some miles east of Newport, has an inscription in Welsh from 1635. By Borrow's day this would have been right on the edge of the area where he said half of people spoke Welsh.

There was a religious census in 1851 that gives the language of services in the parish church. This can give a rough idea of the language of the people, understated because many of the chapels catered for Welsh speakers. This Llanfair Is Coed with only an English service: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/LlanvairDiscoed There were Welsh church services (and lots of Welsh chapels) in the Monmouthshire valleys.

JonikW
01-22-2018, 04:07 PM
There was a religious census in 1851 that gives the language of services in the parish church. This can give a rough idea of the language of the people, understated because many of the chapels catered for Welsh speakers. This Llanfair Is Coed with only an English service: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/LlanvairDiscoed There were Welsh church services (and lots of Welsh chapels) in the Monmouthshire valleys.

Thanks Phoebe. What a wonderful resource.
My great great grandfather Mark Jones was actually baptised in that very church as a seven-year-old in March 1829. His 11-year-old brother was baptised at the same time, and two months later their 16-year-old sister was also baptised there. Perhaps their parents had suddenly defected from a local chapel, but could there be another explanation such as the local landowner putting pressure on tenants to conform? Anyone seen anything similar in Wales?

Phoebe Watts
01-22-2018, 04:26 PM
Thanks Phoebe. What a wonderful resource.
My great great grandfather Mark Jones was actually baptised in that very church as a seven-year-old in March 1829. His 11-year-old brother was baptised at the same time, and two months later their 16-year-old sister was also baptised there. Perhaps their parents had suddenly defected from a local chapel, but could there be another explanation such as the local landowner putting pressure on tenants to conform? Anyone seen anything similar in Wales?

Yes, I have seen batches of baptisms in Glamorgan at about the same time. No defection in my cases. At least two cases where a baby died at a few days old and the older siblings were baptised at that time. Also lots of baptisms by a new curate - perhaps he had a quota to fill?

Dewsloth
01-22-2018, 05:15 PM
Yes we all seem to have Jones’s in the tree, even me. Question, the saying, “keeping up with the Jones’s“, is that originally a US saying or?

I've got my paternal grandmother's (the colonist side) of the tree back to about the 1500's and not one Jones (nor Smith) in the bunch, so far. OTOH, plenty of Griffiths and Davises, so Welsh surname roots lurk way back there.

Phoebe Watts
01-22-2018, 05:23 PM
We've had some success tracing my Jones families back (parish records and wills and some property ownership has been helpful, as well as finding some detailed information in naturalization records and relatives with distinctive name patterns). However, what I have had no success on is finding DNA matches to relatives other than the ones who also immigrated to the US. I think the connection might be too remote (the Welsh side of my family came to the US in the 1840s) or else just not enough have tested, probably a combination.

I have quite a few American matches at about 4th cousin. Some of them are relatively recent emigrants. But the majority are from later waves of emigration than yours in the 1840s. Most are linked to one of three aunts who went to Utah in the 1850s and 1870s; then there were stone quarrymen and coal miners in about the 1880s onwards.

I know that some relatives emigrated before 1840 (or before the first UK census). There must be some of their descendants among the distant cousin matches.

Dewsloth
01-24-2018, 08:11 PM
I've got my paternal grandmother's (the colonist side) of the tree back to about the 1500's and not one Jones (nor Smith) in the bunch, so far. OTOH, plenty of Griffiths and Davises, so Welsh surname roots lurk way back there.

This thread got me poking back into my Griffith origins. I've got it back to my 9th great grandfather, Joshua Griffith B 1593 Wales(?); D. 1660 Boston, Massachusetts, and his wife Alice (Thayer? Supposedly B. 1593 Thornbury, South Gloucestershire).
He came over with a bunch of kids and had more in North America.

However, all 10 family trees on Ancestry list Piers Griffith (the Welsh pirate) as his father. Now Piers is pretty well documented and buried in Westminster Abbey ... and while the chronology isn't too bad, the official reports have Piers having NO surviving male offspring.
wiki says 3 sons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Griffith
Westminster says 2 sons:
http://www.westminster-abbey.org/our-history/people/piers-griffith
This says 11 children, and all died young:
http://www.happywarrior.org/genealogy/griffith.htm

I wish people would be a little more diligent about their trees. :(


Edit: On the other hand, just found a person with the surname "Griffith" on a FTDNA group listing Joshua as a MDKA and he's L-21, so (if it's true and lines up right), there's my first known L-21 ancestor. :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-25-2018, 09:15 AM
This thread got me poking back into my Griffith origins. I've got it back to my 9th great grandfather, Joshua Griffith B 1593 Wales(?); D. 1660 Boston, Massachusetts, and his wife Alice (Thayer? Supposedly B. 1593 Thornbury, South Gloucestershire).
He came over with a bunch of kids and had more in North America.

However, all 10 family trees on Ancestry list Piers Griffith (the Welsh pirate) as his father. Now Piers is pretty well documented and buried in Westminster Abbey ... and while the chronology isn't too bad, the official reports have Piers having NO surviving male offspring.
wiki says 3 sons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Griffith
Westminster says 2 sons:
http://www.westminster-abbey.org/our-history/people/piers-griffith
This says 11 children, and all died young:
http://www.happywarrior.org/genealogy/griffith.htm

I wish people would be a little more diligent about their trees. :(


Edit: On the other hand, just found a person with the surname "Griffith" on a FTDNA group listing Joshua as a MDKA and he's L-21, so (if it's true and lines up right), there's my first known L-21 ancestor. :)

Yes, unfortunately people seem overly fond of "famous names" it undermines confidence.
Really we can't rely on other peoples' trees without some sort of official record, then again a lot of people had exactly the same name even within a small geographic area.
I've recently found a Griffiths connection to Montgomeryshire.

Dewsloth
01-25-2018, 04:41 PM
Yes, unfortunately people seem overly fond of "famous names" it undermines confidence.
Really we can't rely on other peoples' trees without some sort of official record, then again a lot of people had exactly the same name even within a small geographic area.
I've recently found a Griffiths connection to Montgomeryshire.

I ran in to a big problem with that with my last English(?) ancestor to move to the colonies in the mid-1700s, Valentine Cook. A lot of 19th century genealogical "research" had put him as a close relative of Capt. Cook (the Navigator), but it doesn't seem to be true.

There don't seem to any records of where my Griffiths are from other than "England." Even the guy who traces his Y-line from Joshua is brickwalled there.
Looks like Joshua was L21>DF13>DF21>DF5, though, and on Alex's Big Tree Griffeth is alone on a DF5 branch except for an Owens (also a Welsh surname, I think), so I think an ultimate Welsh origin is a reasonable bet.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-25-2018, 04:51 PM
I ran in to a big problem with that with my last English(?) ancestor to move to the colonies in the mid-1700s, Valentine Cook. A lot of 19th century genealogical "research" had put him as a close relative of Capt. Cook (the Navigator), but it doesn't seem to be true.

There don't seem to any records of where my Griffiths are from other than "England." Even the guy who traces his Y-line from Joshua is brickwalled there.
Looks like Joshua was L21>DF13>DF21>DF5, though, and on Alex's Big Tree Griffeth is alone on a DF5 branch except for an Owens (also a Welsh surname, I think), so I think an ultimate Welsh origin is a reasonable bet.

It sounds like it. There are a lot of Welsh surnames in the English border counties in particular, places like Herefordshire and Shropshire. Of course they may be related despite the different surnames.

Lirio100
01-25-2018, 05:08 PM
It isn't just famous relatives, sometimes the temptation of matching names is too much. I got a records "match" last night from MyHeritage for my great grandmother's father. The person had listed his father and mother as from Nantyglo, Wales, and he himself living and dying in Nantyglo--but then listed a Virginian woman as his wife--and she was listed as living and dying in Virginia. I'm pretty sure that my great grandmother's mother was not a Virginian!

Dewsloth
01-25-2018, 05:20 PM
It isn't just famous relatives, sometimes the temptation of matching names is too much. I got a records "match" last night from MyHeritage for my great grandmother's father. The person had listed his father and mother as from Nantyglo, Wales, and he himself living and dying in Nantyglo--but then listed a Virginian woman as his wife--and she was listed as living and dying in Virginia. I'm pretty sure that my great grandmother's mother was not a Virginian!

Ha! I've seen more than one tree with people citing British ancestors being born in Massachusetts in 1616 ... ummm, no.

On the other hand, I have seen some colonists who did return to Great Britain after years in the colonies, when their children (who stayed behind) were grown.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-25-2018, 05:27 PM
It isn't just famous relatives, sometimes the temptation of matching names is too much. I got a records "match" last night from MyHeritage for my great grandmother's father. The person had listed his father and mother as from Nantyglo, Wales, and he himself living and dying in Nantyglo--but then listed a Virginian woman as his wife--and she was listed as living and dying in Virginia. I'm pretty sure that my great grandmother's mother was not a Virginian!

With Welsh names in particular it is easy to make a genuine error through duplicate names. I nearly did that recently but double-checked.
I'm 90% sure I've tracked the father of a paternal Jones but there is a possible contradiction in the records so I can't bring myself to say for sure "yes, that's him".
To be honest I would rather have a gap, I just don't see the point of listing the wrong person.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-25-2018, 05:45 PM
Ha! I've seen more than one tree with people citing British ancestors being born in Massachusetts in 1616 ... ummm, no.

On the other hand, I have seen some colonists who did return to Great Britain after years in the colonies, when their children (who stayed behind) were grown.

I have been wondering about this as a possibility in my own family, not necessarily a direct paternal ancestor. I seem to have quite a few unexplained matches in North Carolina and Virginia who claim early colonial ancestry ( but how reliable are those claims? ).
People have told me they think my pretty consistent 1% Native American suggests a possible connection but I appreciate that isn't unusual in European populations.
However this link did make me wonder a bit. :) Appreciate the surname is slightly different and any connection could be through a completely different ancestor. I'm not really serious about this but it's interesting to speculate a little sometimes. :)
"In court records for neighboring Charles City County, there was a John Howell who in 1659 received permission from the courts to hire an “Indian”. This person is not identified by name or by tribe.
The John Howell named in this record was a man named Lt John Howell (1623-1679) who was a Welsh-born colonist. "https://nativeamericanroots.wordpress.com/tag/howell/

Phoebe Watts
01-25-2018, 08:05 PM
It isn't just famous relatives, sometimes the temptation of matching names is too much. I got a records "match" last night from MyHeritage for my great grandmother's father. The person had listed his father and mother as from Nantyglo, Wales, and he himself living and dying in Nantyglo--but then listed a Virginian woman as his wife--and she was listed as living and dying in Virginia. I'm pretty sure that my great grandmother's mother was not a Virginian!

It is the expectation of middle names or initials that has caused most of my mis-matches. Researchers with Welsh ancestry will know that few Welsh people had middle names until the end of the nineteenth century unless they were from gentry families or educated/ professional people. Lots of those emigrants who adopted a middle initial to "fit in" with their new communities are being linked back to these few rather than to the many ordinary people.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-25-2018, 08:53 PM
It is the expectation of middle names or initials that has caused most of my mis-matches. Researchers with Welsh ancestry will know that few Welsh people had middle names until the end of the nineteenth century unless they were from gentry families or educated/ professional people. Lots of those emigrants who adopted a middle initial to "fit in" with their new communities are being linked back to these few rather than to the many ordinary people.

I'm no expert but from reading about West Herefordshire where the Welsh naming system was in use (to some extent) up to the early 1600's you can have some really odd combinations, somewhere between the Welsh and English systems or both in the same family at about the same time, sometimes maternal maiden names or grandparents' names being used as sort-of middle names. It was probably more common amongst the affluent though I think - the people who generally left Wills.
I know in the early 1900's Howells relatives who emigrated to America used their grandmother's name (Lloyd) as a middle name.

Lirio100
01-25-2018, 09:10 PM
With Welsh names in particular it is easy to make a genuine error through duplicate names. I nearly did that recently but double-checked.
I'm 90% sure I've tracked the father of a paternal Jones but there is a possible contradiction in the records so I can't bring myself to say for sure "yes, that's him".
To be honest I would rather have a gap, I just don't see the point of listing the wrong person.

What I actually don't understand in this case is why the person listed out the birth dates, death dates--and particularly location of death and didn't see a problem.

Lirio100
01-25-2018, 09:14 PM
It is the expectation of middle names or initials that has caused most of my mis-matches. Researchers with Welsh ancestry will know that few Welsh people had middle names until the end of the nineteenth century unless they were from gentry families or educated/ professional people. Lots of those emigrants who adopted a middle initial to "fit in" with their new communities are being linked back to these few rather than to the many ordinary people.

Not just Welsh--my great grandfather came from northern Staffordshire, with five generations of men in my direct line there are four Williams and one George, with only my American grandfather having a middle name.

Lirio100
01-25-2018, 09:16 PM
I'm no expert but from reading about West Herefordshire where the Welsh naming system was in use (to some extent) up to the early 1600's you can have some really odd combinations, somewhere between the Welsh and English systems or both in the same family at about the same time, sometimes maternal maiden names or grandparents' names being used as sort-of middle names. It was probably more common amongst the affluent though I think - the people who generally left Wills.
I know in the early 1900's Howells relatives who emigrated to America used their grandmother's name (Lloyd) as a middle name.

Yes, my grandfather here was given Jarrett as a middle name, which is a maiden name on his mother's side.

Saetro
01-25-2018, 10:36 PM
It isn't just famous relatives, sometimes the temptation of matching names is too much. I got a records "match" last night from MyHeritage for my great grandmother's father. The person had listed his father and mother as from Nantyglo, Wales, and he himself living and dying in Nantyglo--but then listed a Virginian woman as his wife--and she was listed as living and dying in Virginia. I'm pretty sure that my great grandmother's mother was not a Virginian!

Regarding famous relatives.
Princess Nest is quite a trap.
Her life was very very closely supervised throughout and there were no children or even liaisons that went unreported.
Yet claims to be descended from an illegitimate child of hers are legion.
This is the same trap. "It's the same name. She must be the one!"
There were others, but they were not documented, or not nearly so well.

Anglo-Celtic
01-25-2018, 11:59 PM
It isn't just famous relatives, sometimes the temptation of matching names is too much. I got a records "match" last night from MyHeritage for my great grandmother's father. The person had listed his father and mother as from Nantyglo, Wales, and he himself living and dying in Nantyglo--but then listed a Virginian woman as his wife--and she was listed as living and dying in Virginia. I'm pretty sure that my great grandmother's mother was not a Virginian!

You have to be careful with those sites. I went to one that listed the children as older than the parents, and a man as the "wife" of my ostensible great-grandfather. I'm assuming that they weren't referring to reincarnation in the first case. Evidently, some people post things without checking or proof reading.

Phoebe Watts
01-26-2018, 11:01 AM
I'm no expert but from reading about West Herefordshire where the Welsh naming system was in use (to some extent) up to the early 1600's you can have some really odd combinations, somewhere between the Welsh and English systems or both in the same family at about the same time, sometimes maternal maiden names or grandparents' names being used as sort-of middle names. It was probably more common amongst the affluent though I think - the people who generally left Wills.
I know in the early 1900's Howells relatives who emigrated to America used their grandmother's name (Lloyd) as a middle name.

I have some of the triple patronymic names in my tree too but they die out by the early 1700s and haven't caused much confusion to Ancestry. They may well cause problems for others.

What I had in mind was the mass adoption of middle names in America in the mid to late 1800s. The emigrant Owen Roberts (for example) might adopt his mother's maiden name Jones and start appearing in American documents as Owen J Roberts. It only takes one or two researchers, who are not aware that Owen will have left Wales as Owen Roberts, to link him to an Owen J Roberts, a doctor's son, from another part of Wales. Ancestry's hints take over so that the error is copied into many trees. It affects several of my DNA matches.

Phoebe Watts
01-26-2018, 11:12 AM
Not just Welsh--my great grandfather came from northern Staffordshire, with five generations of men in my direct line there are four Williams and one George, with only my American grandfather having a middle name.

Yes of course - it could be emigrants from anywhere in the UK and from other countries. I thought perhaps the common surnames (and forenames) in Wales made it more difficult for a researcher to find the right person in the first place. So they might be more likely to be looking for a matching middle name.

avalon
01-26-2018, 02:19 PM
Yes of course - it could be emigrants from anywhere in the UK and from other countries. I thought perhaps the common surnames (and forenames) in Wales made it more difficult for a researcher to find the right person in the first place. So they might be more likely to be looking for a matching middle name.

Indeed. I did the bulk of my genealogical research several years back and by and large I went back as far as the 1800s census returns, one of these days I will try to do some more...:biggrin1:

And yes, the Welsh lines were always more difficult than the English ones due to that combination of common surnames but also quite a small pool of common first names. In my tree, William, Robert, Thomas, John crop up a lot and Mary and Margaret for the women.

Phoebe Watts
01-26-2018, 04:58 PM
Indeed. I did the bulk of my genealogical research several years back and by and large I went back as far as the 1800s census returns, one of these days I will try to do some more...:biggrin1:

And yes, the Welsh lines were always more difficult than the English ones due to that combination of common surnames but also quite a small pool of common first names. In my tree, William, Robert, Thomas, John crop up a lot and Mary and Margaret for the women.

I think you should - all those resources online now - parish registers; wills; marriage bonds etc.:)

My great-grandparents and three previous generations:
m - William 24%; John 22%; Richard 12% and
f - Ann 18%; Mary 18%; Elizabeth 12%; Ellen/ Elinor 10%

I do have a few Welsh forenames for men in those generations - Owen, Griffith, Evan and Lewis. But only Sioned (Jonet) for women. I have to go back into the 1700s and 1600s to find other survivals such as Rhys (Rice), Myfanwy and Lowry.

Saetro
01-27-2018, 01:01 AM
Yes of course - it could be emigrants from anywhere in the UK and from other countries. I thought perhaps the common surnames (and forenames) in Wales made it more difficult for a researcher to find the right person in the first place. So they might be more likely to be looking for a matching middle name.

Good luck with those middle names.
Some of the censuses had specific instructions to leave out middle names.
Somehow if you could read and also if you were well off, this was not applied too strictly, but my poor with limited literacy and limited means are sometimes impossible to distinguish from others because of this. Especially if they were working away from home in 1841.

msmarjoribanks
01-27-2018, 01:58 AM
My Welsh ancestors aren't too bad compared to my Shropshire ancestors (who alternated William and Edward too much, and were overly fond of the names Sarah and Anne). First names include multiple Griffiths and Owens and Rowlands, as well as Gaynor for a great-etc.-grandmother, and my beloved (because his name was so helpful) Zechariah. They did seem awfully fond of Margaret and Jane for women, though.

msmarjoribanks
01-27-2018, 02:14 AM
I don't see any middle names in my Welsh families (which is not surprising). I do see the English side of my family adopting them by the late 1700s (in Essex). Pretty much uniformly either family surnames (mother's maiden name and grandmother's maiden name) or because they were named after someone. This continued into the next generation with the same basic names being used, and on. I don't see it in Shropshire -- don't know if it's a class or culture difference or more regional. Probably a combination.

msmarjoribanks
01-27-2018, 03:04 AM
On the Welsh-speaking, I don't know if the settlers in the part of Wisconsin where my ancestors settled in the 1840s were from any particular part of Wales, but it seems to have been a largely Welsh-speaking community at first, with several different Welsh-language churches. My own ancestors were from Montgomeryshire (Llangadfan and Llanerfyl) and Caernarfonshire and Angelsey.

Related to this, I have been flipping through the book I mentioned upthread, The Works of the Rev Griffith Edwards, including the Parochial Histories of Llangadfan, Garthbeibio, and Llanerfyl, Montgomeryshire (together with Welsh and English Poetry).

In the Llangadfan section (not surprising):

The 1861 census showed a decrease of 62 from 1851: “In all these remote agricultural parishes there has been a decrease in the population of late years; for the people are generally attracted toward the great centres of industry, either in the mining or manufacturing districts, or to the large commercial towns…. The population is almost exclusively engaged in agriculture, either as farmers or farm labourers.”

This is followed by a discussion of archeology and local beliefs about certain formations (that they were created by giants) and various nobility with land in the parish, and then some bios of notable locals, including a man named William Jones (of course!) who (among other things) had a plan: “...emigration to America began to engross all of his thoughts. He formed a scheme for that purpose, and endeavoured to induce his neighbours to join him, by contributing to a common fund to defray their passage over to America and buy land in the province of Kentucky. He wrote several letters on the subject to Sir. William Pulteney [the American ambassador in London].... He had an idea of forming and establishing a Welsh colony, which he expected in a short time to become so numerous as to give it a claim to be considered a separate state, enjoying its own legislature, subject to common law, and that administered in the Welsh language.” He apparently in 1795, soon after giving up on this scheme.

Also included in the book and related to Welsh as the local language, from an article originally published in 1866:

“A National School was erected in the parish in the year 1830, upon land granted for the purpose by the late Sir Watkin Williams Wynn, Bart.; it is supported by subscriptions and the payments of the children, the Earl of Powis being the principal subscriber… But the value of education is not yet duly appreciated by the parents of children in these parts of the country, and the district being thinly inhabited, children must come a great distance before a sufficient number can be brought together to form an average school. Another great difficulty in the way of the progress of education here, when compared to a more favorable part of the country, is the fact that the only language in use amongst the inhabitants is Welsh, and the language taught in day-schools is English; thus the children in these parishes have to acquire both the information and the medium through which it is to be communicated during the short period they remain in school.” He went on to wonder about how Welsh children could be adequately educated in school and recommended extending the time in school by 6-7 years.

At the time the book was published in 1895, Welsh was said by the editor to still be the everyday language of the people in these parishes (given where they are and that they were remote and agricultural, I suspect this is not surprising at all).

avalon
01-27-2018, 10:28 AM
I think you should - all those resources online now - parish registers; wills; marriage bonds etc.:)

My great-grandparents and three previous generations:
m - William 24%; John 22%; Richard 12% and
f - Ann 18%; Mary 18%; Elizabeth 12%; Ellen/ Elinor 10%

I do have a few Welsh forenames for men in those generations - Owen, Griffith, Evan and Lewis. But only Sioned (Jonet) for women. I have to go back into the 1700s and 1600s to find other survivals such as Rhys (Rice), Myfanwy and Lowry.

Yeh, likewise, Ann, Elizabeth and Ellen also very common and not much else - they weren't very adventurous in the 1800s with forenames it seems.. For the men the only Welsh sounding forenames I can think of off the top of my head were Emlyn and Hugh.

My English ancestors from the 1800s you see more of names like George, Harold, Ernest, Alfred.

Phoebe Watts
01-27-2018, 04:42 PM
Good luck with those middle names.
Some of the censuses had specific instructions to leave out middle names.
Somehow if you could read and also if you were well off, this was not applied too strictly, but my poor with limited literacy and limited means are sometimes impossible to distinguish from others because of this. Especially if they were working away from home in 1841.

I hadn't seen leaving middle names out of the census as a problem but I might go back to some brick walls with that in mind.

I first see a very few middle names in the baptisms in the 1830s (<10%)
There are more from the 1860s baptisms (<30%)
And in significant numbers by the 1880s.

I can't find a formal analysis but just looking at probate records from the 1930s say, where the expectation was to give a full name, the majority of the Welsh names in Wales are still just forename and surname.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-27-2018, 08:04 PM
I hadn't seen leaving middle names out of the census as a problem but I might go back to some brick walls with that in mind.

I first see a very few middle names in the baptisms in the 1830s (<10%)
There are more from the 1860s baptisms (<30%)
And in significant numbers by the 1880s.

I can't find a formal analysis but just looking at probate records from the 1930s say, where the expectation was to give a full name, the majority of the Welsh names in Wales are still just forename and surname.

Perhaps my family isn't typical but there are lots of middle names in mine just before and after 1900.
On the paternal side:-
John Oswald ( my father)
Teilo Lloyd
Wilfred Illtud
Augustine David
Gwendoline Emma

Maternal :-
Elsie May (my mother)
Clara Beryl
Philip Henry
Clarence Gerard
(others I don't know)

Phoebe Watts
01-28-2018, 06:01 PM
Perhaps my family isn't typical but there are lots of middle names in mine just before and after 1900.
On the paternal side:-
John Oswald ( my father)
Teilo Lloyd
Wilfred Illtud
Augustine David
Gwendoline Emma

Maternal :-
Elsie May (my mother)
Clara Beryl
Philip Henry
Clarence Gerard
(others I don't know)


Having been conservative and bland for a long time Welsh names became very varied from the 1880s.

The Teilo and Illtyd in your list seem to reflect a theme of heroes in boys names.

In North Wales there is Arthur, Glyndwr, Llywelyn...; Also names based on places: Meirion, Arfon, Emlyn, Eifion...

There seems to have been more confidence in the South. As well as historic Welsh leaders and saints there were all those names that aren't Welsh but which seem to be more used here: Haydn, Handel, Byron, Milton...

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-29-2018, 06:56 AM
Having been conservative and bland for a long time Welsh names became very varied from the 1880s.

The Teilo and Illtyd in your list seem to reflect a theme of heroes in boys names.

In North Wales there is Arthur, Glyndwr, Llywelyn...; Also names based on places: Meirion, Arfon, Emlyn, Eifion...

There seems to have been more confidence in the South. As well as historic Welsh leaders and saints there were all those names that aren't Welsh but which seem to be more used here: Haydn, Handel, Byron, Milton...

I didn't know my father's family very well, he died when I was young. My mother suggested they were catholics at one time (she may have been wrong about that). I thought they might be Saints' names.

Phoebe Watts
01-29-2018, 10:01 AM
I didn't know my father's family very well, he died when I was young. My mother suggested they were catholics at one time (she may have been wrong about that). I thought they might be Saints' names.

Yes that fits well doesn't it. I hadn't recognised Oswald as being a saint's name. It is interesting that there is a good mix from the Celtic and Anglo Saxon traditions.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-29-2018, 01:16 PM
Yes that fits well doesn't it. I hadn't recognised Oswald as being a saint's name. It is interesting that there is a good mix from the Celtic and Anglo Saxon traditions.

They were from Herefordshire but very close to the border. Monumental masons in the family, involved in Church restoration. My grandfather and his brother worked on Patricio Church in the early 1900's where my great grandfather is buried. Sorry if I've shared this before.

21086

01-29-2018, 01:17 PM
They were from Herefordshire but very close to the border. Monumental masons in the family, involved in Church restoration. My grandfather and his brother worked on Patricio Church in the early 1900's where my great grandfather is buried. Sorry if I've shared this before.

21086

Very cool, Celtic Cross.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-29-2018, 04:55 PM
Very cool, Celtic Cross.

Carved by my grandfather I think Stephen. I thought there might be a bit of Anglo Saxon or even Norse influence going on at the bottom.
Kilpeck Church in West Herefordshire is a strange mix of styles.

21087

avalon
02-02-2018, 02:56 PM
The recent Irish DNA atlas got me thinking again about how Wales really needs a good, detailed genetic survey. All we really have is POBI which although good, could be more refined and more insightful about Welsh history with more sampling.

It's only when you look at a close up of the POBI map that you see the gaps - 0 samples in Powys, only 10 from Denbighshire and Flintshire. The sampling was good from Anglesey because POBI went to an Agricultural show there but in North Wales I would like to have seen more samples from Snowdonia and from Llyn. It looks like they got a handful from around Porthmadog but generally speaking there aren't many from Meirionnydd, which is one of the remoter parts of Wales. And again there are big gaps in sampling from central Wales.

I will say though, that I think POBI broadly got it right - Wales can broadly be split into a North Wales cluster, a SW Wales one and a Welsh Borders cluster, which itself can be split into North Wales Border and South Wales Border.

I'm probably repeating myself but although Wales is a small country, the physical landscape lends itself to genetic variation and isolation. We know for example from POBI that there is more genetic variation within Pembrokeshire alone than there is from pretty much most of England. With even more sampling from Wales we could identify even greater population structure, imo.

It reminds me of an amusing anecdote I once read about a Welsh poet Nesta Wyn Jones from Trawsfynydd, whose family were still regarded as outsiders having moved from Bala, which is only 12 miles away, 300 years previously!

21164

Phoebe Watts
02-02-2018, 05:15 PM
The recent Irish DNA atlas got me thinking again about how Wales really needs a good, detailed genetic survey. All we really have is POBI which although good, could be more refined and more insightful about Welsh history with more sampling.

It's only when you look at a close up of the POBI map that you see the gaps - 0 samples in Powys, only 10 from Denbighshire and Flintshire. The sampling was good from Anglesey because POBI went to an Agricultural show there but in North Wales I would like to have seen more samples from Snowdonia and from Llyn. It looks like they got a handful from around Porthmadog but generally speaking there aren't many from Meirionnydd, which is one of the remoter parts of Wales. And again there are big gaps in sampling from central Wales.

I will say though, that I think POBI broadly got it right - Wales can broadly be split into a North Wales cluster, a SW Wales one and a Welsh Borders cluster, which itself can be split into North Wales Border and South Wales Border.

I'm probably repeating myself but although Wales is a small country, the physical landscape lends itself to genetic variation and isolation. We know for example from POBI that there is more genetic variation within Pembrokeshire alone than there is from pretty much most of England. With even more sampling from Wales we could identify even greater population structure, imo.

It reminds me of an amusing anecdote I once read about a Welsh poet Nesta Wyn Jones from Trawsfynydd, whose family were still regarded as outsiders having moved from Bala, which is only 12 miles away, 300 years previously!

21164

It would be good to know more about the DNA of the communities in the gaps, especially the most isolated areas.

In the context of the Irish studies, it does strike me that the heavily sampled areas of Anglesey and Pembrokeshire are coastal and close to Ireland. Would the Norse and Irish influence still be visible in the DNA there I wonder. And be different from inland/ upland areas?

avalon
02-02-2018, 10:41 PM
It would be good to know more about the DNA of the communities in the gaps, especially the most isolated areas.

In the context of the Irish studies, it does strike me that the heavily sampled areas of Anglesey and Pembrokeshire are coastal and close to Ireland. Would the Norse and Irish influence still be visible in the DNA there I wonder. And be different from inland/ upland areas?

Yes, I think that based on the history and place name evidence it is likely that the Norse had more of an influence on the Welsh coast and on Anglesey than they did on the Welsh uplands and interior, but really we'd need more data to test the theory. In the case of Ireland, the Norse signal is pretty consistent across the whole country.

Personally, I have always thought that the Welsh uplands, in places like Snowdonia, are likely to harbour more isolated populations when compared to the coast and the lowlands and I think some of the remotest areas in North Wales have yet to be tested.

On balance though, the upland areas are sparsely populated, and no community can really be that isolated. I think with further testing in North Wales, samples would still fall into the existing POBI North Wales cluster, but we might see more enhanced population structure with more genetic variation, such as we saw in Pembrokeshire which at K=53 had about 5 genetic clusters. I think it was only because they collected so many samples from Pembrokeshire that POBI were able to detect so many clusters there.

Saetro
02-03-2018, 01:14 AM
Yes, I think that based on the history and place name evidence it is likely that the Norse had more of an influence on the Welsh coast and on Anglesey than they did on the Welsh uplands and interior, but really we'd need more data to test the theory. In the case of Ireland, the Norse signal is pretty consistent across the whole country.

Personally, I have always thought that the Welsh uplands, in places like Snowdonia, are likely to harbour more isolated populations when compared to the coast and the lowlands and I think some of the remotest areas in North Wales have yet to be tested.

On balance though, the upland areas are sparsely populated, and no community can really be that isolated. I think with further testing in North Wales, samples would still fall into the existing POBI North Wales cluster, but we might see more enhanced population structure with more genetic variation, such as we saw in Pembrokeshire which at K=53 had about 5 genetic clusters. I think it was only because they collected so many samples from Pembrokeshire that POBI were able to detect so many clusters there.

From history, this area can be quite a palimpsest.
Some Celts may have been driven out of Britain to Ireland.
Some Irish raiders (including the Scotti) came after the Romans left.
Pembrokeshire is known to have had a big "Norman" influx, some of whom went on to Ireland and some to Scotland.
Prominent among the latter, were "Flemings" who included people from what we would now call North Holland all the way to Calais.
And maybe some Bretons who included Celts who had earlier left Britain.
There is also said to have been a later English influx into the area, with Irish later flooding in again as labourers in C19.

Cornish often forget the Irish who came. Not just after the Romans left.
There are names of "sojourners" (mostly harvest workers) in the 1700s that look Irish, and some who were documented as being Welsh.
Not to mention the seamen from Aberdeen who came down to the western side of Cornwall, married locals and settled there.

There is a lot of hard slog, "bottom up" history to be done from lots of documents in these areas to make sense of history.
Some has already been done and helps to explain the DNA.
Some only surfaces when individuals research their ancestors and the areas in which they lived.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-03-2018, 07:31 AM
The recent Irish DNA atlas got me thinking again about how Wales really needs a good, detailed genetic survey. All we really have is POBI which although good, could be more refined and more insightful about Welsh history with more sampling.

It's only when you look at a close up of the POBI map that you see the gaps - 0 samples in Powys, only 10 from Denbighshire and Flintshire. The sampling was good from Anglesey because POBI went to an Agricultural show there but in North Wales I would like to have seen more samples from Snowdonia and from Llyn. It looks like they got a handful from around Porthmadog but generally speaking there aren't many from Meirionnydd, which is one of the remoter parts of Wales. And again there are big gaps in sampling from central Wales.

I will say though, that I think POBI broadly got it right - Wales can broadly be split into a North Wales cluster, a SW Wales one and a Welsh Borders cluster, which itself can be split into North Wales Border and South Wales Border.

I'm probably repeating myself but although Wales is a small country, the physical landscape lends itself to genetic variation and isolation. We know for example from POBI that there is more genetic variation within Pembrokeshire alone than there is from pretty much most of England. With even more sampling from Wales we could identify even greater population structure, imo.

It reminds me of an amusing anecdote I once read about a Welsh poet Nesta Wyn Jones from Trawsfynydd, whose family were still regarded as outsiders having moved from Bala, which is only 12 miles away, 300 years previously!

21164

Someone should turn up at the Royal Welsh Show with a bunch of testing kits. :)
Seriously, it seems to me there are some big gaps in the Welsh coverage maybe in the central uplands in particular. Much of my own ancestry is in Breconshire, Radnorshire , Merionethshire and possibly further West and North.
I also agree with you that more testing would possibly reveal quiet distinct, although maybe subtle, differences in different parts of Wales. I saw some percentages on test results per country. I can't remember the exact context and detail but Wales was at the bottom of their table.

avalon
02-04-2018, 08:15 AM
From history, this area can be quite a palimpsest.
Some Celts may have been driven out of Britain to Ireland.
Some Irish raiders (including the Scotti) came after the Romans left.
Pembrokeshire is known to have had a big "Norman" influx, some of whom went on to Ireland and some to Scotland.
Prominent among the latter, were "Flemings" who included people from what we would now call North Holland all the way to Calais.
And maybe some Bretons who included Celts who had earlier left Britain.
There is also said to have been a later English influx into the area, with Irish later flooding in again as labourers in C19.

Cornish often forget the Irish who came. Not just after the Romans left.
There are names of "sojourners" (mostly harvest workers) in the 1700s that look Irish, and some who were documented as being Welsh.
Not to mention the seamen from Aberdeen who came down to the western side of Cornwall, married locals and settled there.

There is a lot of hard slog, "bottom up" history to be done from lots of documents in these areas to make sense of history.
Some has already been done and helps to explain the DNA.
Some only surfaces when individuals research their ancestors and the areas in which they lived.

Pembrokeshire is an interesting place. Going way back it has rich archaeological heritage with connections to Stonehenge and some of Wales' best preserved Neoilthic tombs such as Pentre Ifan.

In terms of the modern genetic clusters though, the variation we are seeing is probably mostly due to the Landsker line, the more recent historic division between the Welsh speaking north of Pembrokeshire and the English speaking south. Quite remarkable really that at POBIs highest level of resolution, there were 5 clusters in Pembrokeshire.

avalon
02-04-2018, 08:33 AM
Someone should turn up at the Royal Welsh Show with a bunch of testing kits. :)
Seriously, it seems to me there are some big gaps in the Welsh coverage maybe in the central uplands in particular. Much of my own ancestry is in Breconshire, Radnorshire , Merionethshire and possibly further West and North.
I also agree with you that more testing would possibly reveal quiet distinct, although maybe subtle, differences in different parts of Wales. I saw some percentages on test results per country. I can't remember the exact context and detail but Wales was at the bottom of their table.

Yes agreed, I think Welsh shepherds from upland areas would be great people to test. Someone like this, Gwyn Thomas, although if you gave him a DNA testing kit he would probably throw it in the river along with the climbers. :biggrin1:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00wb5s4

In all seriousness though, I do think that Wales needs more testing. I don't think there would be any major surprises - POBI in my opinion got it mostly right but with more sampling in certain areas we'd see these subtle, local differences.

With enough samples, using FineStructure analysis they could probably detect 20 different clusters. POBI had 9 different Welsh clusters at K=53.

Jessie
02-04-2018, 09:07 AM
Someone should contact people from the PoBI study and ask them if they would consider doing further testing in Wales either Walter Bodmer, University of Leicester or someone at the Wellcome Trust Centre for Human Genetics. I know that they are still continuing with the Irish DNA Atlas. It would be great to get more samples from Wales and Scotland.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-04-2018, 10:09 AM
Someone should contact people from the PoBI study and ask them if they would consider doing further testing in Wales either Walter Bodmer, University of Leicester or someone at the Wellcome Trust Centre for Human Genetics. I know that they are still continuing with the Irish DNA Atlas. It would be great to get more samples from Wales and Scotland.

I offered to test for the POBI study. I probably didn't meet the distance requirement for ancestors although I knew pretty much where they all came from. I'm in the valleys so probably not a very standard Welsh population No reply.
Further information on "Y" would be interesting too.

msmarjoribanks
02-04-2018, 02:05 PM
Inspired by this discussion I spent some time sorting through my Ancestry matches on the Welsh side (I'd love to at least get Y-DNA tests from that side of the family if I can find a male line descendant who is interested), and I happened upon my first Ancestry match who seems to actually still be in Wales. Exciting, but so far I can't tell how he's related since almost his whole tree is Joneses and Humphreys and Owens and Evans and Griffiths and so on, and I have a bunch of the same names too (the curse of Welsh research). Locations don't help, since his tree right now seems mostly to go back to about the mid 1800s, which is when my family left Wales, and to be centered around Wrexham -- my family was from smaller places west of that in North Wales, so I suppose it makes sense some might have ended up there.

With my Shropshire families I traced forward brothers and sisters of my ancestors who left to see what became of them (it was interesting to see how much migration there was both to larger towns in the area as people left farming and also to London), but I haven't tried to do this with my Welsh families and really should, it would be interesting if it's possible.

avalon
02-04-2018, 05:18 PM
Someone should contact people from the PoBI study and ask them if they would consider doing further testing in Wales either Walter Bodmer, University of Leicester or someone at the Wellcome Trust Centre for Human Genetics. I know that they are still continuing with the Irish DNA Atlas. It would be great to get more samples from Wales and Scotland.

I did email Living DNA about this but I didn't get much of a response - they passed my comments on to a review board or something. To be fair, these research projects do cost money and they probably felt they had enough samples from Wales with the POBI data.

My own view is that yes, POBI got the overall picture correct wrt to Wales, but that more samples would give a more detailed breakdown and perhaps show further genetic variation in certain areas.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-04-2018, 05:44 PM
I did email Living DNA about this but I didn't get much of a response - they passed my comments on to a review board or something. To be fair, these research projects do cost money and they probably felt they had enough samples from Wales with the POBI data.

My own view is that yes, POBI got the overall picture correct wrt to Wales, but that more samples would give a more detailed breakdown and perhaps show further genetic variation in certain areas.

Apparently they've done a genetic study of Welsh sheep but haven't got around to the people. Have to get your priorities right. :)

"Some breeds, such as the Black Welsh Mountain sheep, saw their genetic history mapped back to Scandinavia, meaning their genetic history is heavily influenced by the sheep brought to Wales by the Vikings. Other breeds, such as the Llandovery White Face, saw its roots stretch back even further to the colonisation of Britain by the Romans.
The study even found that one particular breed of sheep, exclusively from the Lleyn peninsula in northwest Wales, can trace its genetics back to a single, small flock of sheep in Galway, Ireland from the early 19th century. This shows that traders and famers from that part of Ireland came to Wales for agricultural purposes more than 200 years ago."

https://www.aber.ac.uk/en/news/archive/2015/06/title-168102-en.html

avalon
02-05-2018, 02:50 PM
Apparently they've done a genetic study of Welsh sheep but haven't got around to the people. Have to get your priorities right. :)

"Some breeds, such as the Black Welsh Mountain sheep, saw their genetic history mapped back to Scandinavia, meaning their genetic history is heavily influenced by the sheep brought to Wales by the Vikings. Other breeds, such as the Llandovery White Face, saw its roots stretch back even further to the colonisation of Britain by the Romans.
The study even found that one particular breed of sheep, exclusively from the Lleyn peninsula in northwest Wales, can trace its genetics back to a single, small flock of sheep in Galway, Ireland from the early 19th century. This shows that traders and famers from that part of Ireland came to Wales for agricultural purposes more than 200 years ago."

https://www.aber.ac.uk/en/news/archive/2015/06/title-168102-en.html

Well there are lots of sheep. :)Think I remember reading once that there were 12 million sheep in Wales in the 1990s (not sure how accurate that was), then foot and mouth cut the population in 2001. Still lots more sheep than people though!

Phoebe Watts
02-05-2018, 02:52 PM
Inspired by this discussion I spent some time sorting through my Ancestry matches on the Welsh side (I'd love to at least get Y-DNA tests from that side of the family if I can find a male line descendant who is interested), and I happened upon my first Ancestry match who seems to actually still be in Wales. Exciting, but so far I can't tell how he's related since almost his whole tree is Joneses and Humphreys and Owens and Evans and Griffiths and so on, and I have a bunch of the same names too (the curse of Welsh research). Locations don't help, since his tree right now seems mostly to go back to about the mid 1800s, which is when my family left Wales, and to be centered around Wrexham -- my family was from smaller places west of that in North Wales, so I suppose it makes sense some might have ended up there.

With my Shropshire families I traced forward brothers and sisters of my ancestors who left to see what became of them (it was interesting to see how much migration there was both to larger towns in the area as people left farming and also to London), but I haven't tried to do this with my Welsh families and really should, it would be interesting if it's possible.

It will be interesting to see what progress you make. I'm able to use one group of relatives called Jones who emigrated from rural Carmarthenshire in the 1850s, and the dozens of their descendants who match me on Ancestry, to triangulate back to the descendants of their siblings who stayed in Wales. It works for me in this case because the American cousins have accurate trees back to Carmarthenshire.

It is far easier for me to indentify my relationship to somone who is partly of Welsh descent (and may have one or two Jones lines) than to the descendants of those who stayed in Wales and who may, like me, have more than ten Jones lines to the 1850s.

So far I have only found new cousins, not new ancestors, in this way. Quite a few more UK and US based matches have popped up since the Christmas sale at Ancestry though, so perhaps I'll find some new ancestors soon.

Phoebe Watts
02-05-2018, 05:31 PM
Apparently they've done a genetic study of Welsh sheep but haven't got around to the people. Have to get your priorities right. :)

"Some breeds, such as the Black Welsh Mountain sheep, saw their genetic history mapped back to Scandinavia, meaning their genetic history is heavily influenced by the sheep brought to Wales by the Vikings. Other breeds, such as the Llandovery White Face, saw its roots stretch back even further to the colonisation of Britain by the Romans.
The study even found that one particular breed of sheep, exclusively from the Lleyn peninsula in northwest Wales, can trace its genetics back to a single, small flock of sheep in Galway, Ireland from the early 19th century. This shows that traders and famers from that part of Ireland came to Wales for agricultural purposes more than 200 years ago."

https://www.aber.ac.uk/en/news/archive/2015/06/title-168102-en.html

Fascinating though? Further evidence of trading and contact with Ireland and Scandinavia.

msmarjoribanks
02-12-2018, 01:38 PM
I started trying to trace some of my Welsh families forward to see if I could find a connection with the Welsh match and am finding it difficult so far, but I did happen upon the following record. I don't currently have any reason to think these Humphreys are related to mine (obviously a common name), but I am interested in the story behind this:

From County of Montgomery, Record of All Persons Charged with Indictable Offenses, 1843

Mary Humphreys, age 60
Sarah Humphreys, age 30
Ann Humphreys, age 33
Catherine Humphreys, age 19
Benjamin Humphreys, age 18

All charged with assault on a peace officer. Tried at the County Session, June 29.

Saetro
02-12-2018, 08:44 PM
I started trying to trace some of my Welsh families forward to see if I could find a connection with the Welsh match and am finding it difficult so far, but I did happen upon the following record. I don't currently have any reason to think these Humphreys are related to mine (obviously a common name), but I am interested in the story behind this:

From County of Montgomery, Record of All Persons Charged with Indictable Offenses, 1843

Mary Humphreys, age 60
Sarah Humphreys, age 30
Ann Humphreys, age 33
Catherine Humphreys, age 19
Benjamin Humphreys, age 18

All charged with assault on a peace officer. Tried at the County Session, June 29.

My reason for doing family history is for the stories.
So when one of these crops up for someone who is not related, I hope there is nothing else I need to be doing at the time.
But following up stories about events like this might show the spirit of the times.
Or it might be a story about someone who is a close neighbour, so they would have some contact with the story.

Mind you, looking for newspaper reports on the surname Gedrych turned up an inheritance court case in Wales that was nothing to do with my line, and probably of no relevance whatsoever. So that one was left alone.

Your Humphreys story looks interesting. Keep us posted.

msmarjoribanks
02-12-2018, 09:10 PM
My reason for doing family history is for the stories.
So when one of these crops up for someone who is not related, I hope there is nothing else I need to be doing at the time.
But following up stories about events like this might show the spirit of the times.
Or it might be a story about someone who is a close neighbour, so they would have some contact with the story.

Mind you, looking for newspaper reports on the surname Gedrych turned up an inheritance court case in Wales that was nothing to do with my line, and probably of no relevance whatsoever. So that one was left alone.

Your Humphreys story looks interesting. Keep us posted.

Totally agree, or the personal insight into a time and place, and like you it doesn't actually have to be a relative, that's just a way to pick places to focus on and one way into a different time.

Dewsloth
02-12-2018, 11:07 PM
I started trying to trace some of my Welsh families forward to see if I could find a connection with the Welsh match and am finding it difficult so far, but I did happen upon the following record. I don't currently have any reason to think these Humphreys are related to mine (obviously a common name), but I am interested in the story behind this:

From County of Montgomery, Record of All Persons Charged with Indictable Offenses, 1843

Mary Humphreys, age 60
Sarah Humphreys, age 30
Ann Humphreys, age 33
Catherine Humphreys, age 19
Benjamin Humphreys, age 18

All charged with assault on a peace officer. Tried at the County Session, June 29.

It's a little late (and inland) for a family trying to fight off a press gang.


There is no basis to the widespread impression that civilians without any seafaring background were randomly seized from home, country lane or workplace by press gangs or that the latter were employed inland away from coastal ports.[11] There were however occasions when the local populace would band together to oppose the activities of the press. One such incident, the Easton Massacre, resulted in a press gang firing on a crowd, killing four people in the village of Easton on the Isle of Portland, where they were trying to impress the quarrymen.

Dewsloth
02-12-2018, 11:50 PM
My reason for doing family history is for the stories.


Totally agree, or the personal insight into a time and place, and like you it doesn't actually have to be a relative, that's just a way to pick places to focus on and one way into a different time.

Almost-Welsh story:

My 9th great grandfather, George Davis (born in Cheshire in ~1616) made his way to Massachusetts, married Sarah Clark. After Davis's death and her remarriage to Nicholas Rist, as part of the Salem witch trials she was charged with witchcraft at age 72 thanks to testimony supplied by Rist!


Sarah married George Davis when she was 22 and had 10 children with him, one of whom was named Joseph. George died in 1667 when Sarah was 57 years old. 4 or 5 years later she married Nicholas Rist. They appear to have had one son, [...]

And then, if 10 children wasn’t enough, in 1692, at the age of 72, she got into real trouble. She was charged with witchcraft and arrested on May 26 and spent 5 months in jail waiting for trial.

The Salem witchcraft trials concluded with the final hanging of accused witches on September 22, 1692. She was, thankfully, not either tried or hanged and her husband Nicholas bailed her out of jail in late October. She died about 5 years later and left a will. We have some small details of that will.
https://lindseyforster.com/2013/10/03/sarah-clark-1620-1698-accused-of-witchcraft-in-1692/comment-page-1/

Phoebe Watts
02-13-2018, 01:28 PM
I found a few cases involving my ancestors but mainly petty offences like drunkenness, weights and measures, and riding on a cart(instead of walking beside the horse). That last one most of all.

You can search the database for the Court of Great Sessions in Wales for 1730 to 1830 at:

https://www.llgc.org.uk/sesiwn_fawr/sf_s.php

These cases tend to be more serious than the crimes tried at the Courts of Quarter Sessions at each county.

I found two 5xgreat grandparents and their son, all charged with assault in 1779. They were found not guilty. I as able to find out a bit more in local records and it seems that the family were in dispute with the man who brought the charges. It looks as if he sold them a piece of land without disclosing that a third party had built a house on the land.

msmarjoribanks
02-13-2018, 05:48 PM
That is a great site. No Humphreys I recognize, but this one stood out as in need of backstory (or inspiration for a novel):

Accused John Humphreys; Parish: Meifod; County: Montgomery; Status: Yeoman

Offence Burglary of prosecutor's house and stealing wearing apparel and cloth. The stolen regimental breeches were recognized by the prosecutor as it 'appeared to be cut off one knee' to accomodate his wooden leg. Prosecutor formerly of the Royal Regiment of Artillery. Prisoner aged 25.

Location and date Parish: Meifod; County: Montgomery; Date: 22 November 1815

Prosecutor David Price, soldier

Plea Not guilty.
Verdict Not guilty.

File number 4/200/7
Document number 33
Other documents E, Ca (Key)

Saetro
02-14-2018, 12:15 AM
Almost-Welsh story:

My 9th great grandfather, George Davis (born in Cheshire in ~1616) made his way to Massachusetts, married Sarah Clark. After Davis's death and her remarriage to Nicholas Rist, as part of the Salem witch trials she was charged with witchcraft at age 72 thanks to testimony supplied by Rist!


https://lindseyforster.com/2013/10/03/sarah-clark-1620-1698-accused-of-witchcraft-in-1692/comment-page-1/


George died in 1667 when Sarah was 57 years old. 4 or 5 years later she married Nicholas Rist. They appear to have had one son, [...]

Rather than just marvel at Sarah's age at the time of birth, this should be investigated as a probable case of adoption.
Maybe an unmarried daughter's (or granddaughter's) child.
Or that of someone who died.
Otherwise, I don't think there has been a historical case of such a late birth since Sarah in the Bible.

Dewsloth
02-14-2018, 12:57 AM
Rather than just marvel at Sarah's age at the time of birth, this should be investigated as a probable case of adoption.
Maybe an unmarried daughter's (or granddaughter's) child.
Or that of someone who died.
Otherwise, I don't think there has been a historical case of such a late birth since Sarah in the Bible.

Maybe she really did have magic powers :lol:

Here's another account of the whole thing


Sarah married George Davis, a weaver and ship owner, with whom she had 8 children. When their youngest was 5, George died. Soon after, Sarah married Nicholas Rist of Reading and had one child:

Joseph Rist, born about 1671 in Reading, MA; died April 19, 1740 in Uxbridge, Worcester Co., MA; married to Phebe Richardson May 20, 1703 in Reading.

When Sarah’s oldest son, Benjamin Davis, died in 1679, he willed his estate to Sarah, with the exception of two acres, which went to Benjamin’s sister.

On May 28, 1692, a warrant for Sarah’s arrest on charges of witchcraft was issued at Salem, MA, evidently at the request of her husband, Nicholas Rist. In those days, the husband of a woman with property could snatch that property away by having her declared either insane or a witch. If she and Nicholas were not getting along, he may have tried this trick to get her land. Although Sarah was never tried for the crime, she was sent to prison in Boston along with Capt. John Alden, Jr. Four months later, in October, 1692, Nicholas must have had a change of heart, since he petitioned for her release. She was released and lived with her husband for another 5 ½ years until her death.

Sarah’s will, written September 20, 1697 and probated May 15, 1698, refers to “the worldly estate that my former husband George Davis and my son Benjamin Davis gave to me by their last wills for to dispose of, give and devise the same as follows: to grandson Joshua Davis, all ye Homestead…that is ye same that I now dwell in… with all the lotts, divisions and dividends…thereto belonging, Joshua to pay to my daughters the legacies hereafter mentioned: to daughter Sarah Cole, to daughter Hannah Boutell, to son-in-law Timothy Wylye, to daughter Mary Damon, to Susannah Richardson.”

notes
Sarah Clarke, b. 1662 at Kent, England and d. 14 July 1698 at Reading, Massachusetts, American Colonies. Sarah Clarke, m. 1643 to George Davice at Lynn, Massachusetts, American Colonies. After the death of George Davice in 1667, she re-married to Nicholas Rist. Sarah (Clarke) Davice, m. 1669 to Nicholas Rist at Reading, Massachusetts, American Colonies.

She was assested for WitchCraft on 24 May 1692 in Salem, Massachusetts, American Colonies and was imprisoned in Boston, Massachusetts, American Colonies. on 31 May 1692. She was released from prison on the Petition of Nicholas Rist on 19 October 1692.

https://www.geni.com/people/Sarah-Rist/6000000014667582229

msmarjoribanks
02-14-2018, 05:20 AM
Re: Salem, although I don't know any Welsh links, I have some ancestors (Richard Gardner and his wife Sarah Shattuck) who lived in Salem (as well as prior Gardners, as they were early settlers). They got essentially kicked out in the 1660s (excommunicated from the local church for attending Quaker meetings, which meant relocation was the best idea) and ended up in Nantucket (to intermarry with, among others, the Starbucks and Coffins whose names were among those real names used in Moby Dick).

Sarah's brother Samuel was a Quaker who had been officially kicked out of Salem, on pain of death if he were to return, but he went with some other Massachusetts Bay Quakers to plead their case to Charles II, and returned victorious with a letter from the king saying that Quakers accused of crimes should be sent to England for trial (apparently phrased in a way I love, that "Quakers obnoxious to punishment by the laws" should be sent). The governor grudgingly said he would obey the royal order (reportedly Boston had greeted the news of the return with the cry "Shattuck and the devil have come"), but soon the order was ignored and Quakers were again subjected to local punishment.

Shattuck's son, also Samuel, ended up being one of the accusers of Bridget Bishop, the first person to be executed as a witch in 1692.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-26-2018, 01:26 PM
How to make Welsh cakes. In the old days these were made on a flat heavy metal plate with a handle known as a bakestone. Around here at least, the cakes themselves are sometimes called bakestones.


https://www.facebook.com/visitwales/videos/10155575875366785/

Phoebe Watts
03-01-2018, 01:15 PM
How to make Welsh cakes. In the old days these were made on a flat heavy metal plate with a handle known as a bakestone. Around here at least, the cakes themselves are sometimes called bakestones.



Pice ar y maen in South Wales or Cacen Gri in the North, among other names. Meaning cakes on a stone or griddle cakes.

Good idea John; just making a few for St Davids Day today. There are spices in my recipe - and less sugar.

Phoebe Watts
03-01-2018, 01:27 PM
Almost-Welsh story:

My 9th great grandfather, George Davis (born in Cheshire in ~1616) made his way to Massachusetts, married Sarah Clark. After Davis's death and her remarriage to Nicholas Rist, as part of the Salem witch trials she was charged with witchcraft at age 72 thanks to testimony supplied by Rist!


https://lindseyforster.com/2013/10/03/sarah-clark-1620-1698-accused-of-witchcraft-in-1692/comment-page-1/


I had read somewhere that there was little evidence of witch trials in Wales. The explanation given was that in Wales it wasn't witches or other humans who were blamed for the misfortunes that might be blames on witches in other cultures. Then I read that it had happened but that most of the evidence hadn't survived!

So here is reference to some of the cases that are known: https://www.llgc.org.uk/en/discover/digital-gallery/archives/witchcraft-court-of-great-sessions-rec/

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-01-2018, 08:27 PM
I had read somewhere that there was little evidence of witch trials in Wales. The explanation given was that in Wales it wasn't witches or other humans who were blamed for the misfortunes that might be blames on witches in other cultures. Then I read that it had happened but that most of the evidence hadn't survived!

So here is reference to some of the cases that are known: https://www.llgc.org.uk/en/discover/digital-gallery/archives/witchcraft-court-of-great-sessions-rec/

Maybe it's because many misfortunes were blamed on Fairies (seriously). People believed in fairies up to the 1800's I think and they were regarded with considerable fear. Sightings of fairies could signify a coming death, they were blamed for milk or cream going off and were believed to steal babies, replacing them with changelings. Fairy weddings and funerals were reported, even by educated people and clergymen.

JonikW
03-06-2018, 11:55 PM
Maybe it's because many misfortunes were blamed on Fairies (seriously). People believed in fairies up to the 1800's I think and they were regarded with considerable fear. Sightings of fairies could signify a coming death, they were blamed for milk or cream going off and were believed to steal babies, replacing them with changelings. Fairy weddings and funerals were reported, even by educated people and clergymen.

I think there may be something in some of these old beliefs. Nearly two years ago I was driving my daughter to school throigh the Kent countryside and we spotted a wooden owl on the fence of a school in a nearby village (it is wooden, I've seen it every weekday since). It was the first time we'd noticed it and my daughter said to me that she thought it was real. We discussed it for a minute or so as we drove along, then fell silent. The next moment I jumped in my driving seat when an enormous owl swooped down right in front of the windscreen, followed a metre or two in front of us for a second or so and swooped off over a hedge and into a field. The wing span seemed extremely wide and I thought to myself: I hope this isn't an omen of some kind (remembering old stories of harbingers of death). My mother died a couple of weeks later. This might sound weird but it's a true story and I've wondered about it since. I've never seen another owl in the daytime anywhere, let alone where I live now. Maybe our ancestors knew a thing or too...

Saetro
03-07-2018, 12:06 AM
Maybe it's because many misfortunes were blamed on Fairies (seriously). People believed in fairies up to the 1800's I think and they were regarded with considerable fear. Sightings of fairies could signify a coming death, they were blamed for milk or cream going off and were believed to steal babies, replacing them with changelings. Fairy weddings and funerals were reported, even by educated people and clergymen.

A world that is totally random and unexplainable is impossible to live in.
We need reasons for things.
Even if they are the wrong ones. They help us stay sane.
Before germ theory, infections of various sorts were inexplicable.
Some events still are.
Blaming fairies can be better than blaming your neighbours.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-08-2018, 09:11 AM
A world that is totally random and unexplainable is impossible to live in.
We need reasons for things.
Even if they are the wrong ones. They help us stay sane.
Before germ theory, infections of various sorts were inexplicable.
Some events still are.
Blaming fairies can be better than blaming your neighbours.

This is a local tale, Aberystruth is the Parish. At one time the area was said to be "infested" with fairies. There are still some anonymous people who leave offerings near waterfalls or springs.
"To the phenomenon of fairy funerals as omens of death must now be added the appearance of fairy weddings. Our source, once again, is the indefatigable Edmund Jones. This time, the tale comes from his less well-known work, A Relation of Apparitions of Spirits in the County of Monmouth and the Principality of Wales, published in 1780:

“The last Apparition of the Fairies in the Parish of Aberystruth, was in the fields of the Widow of Mr. Edmund Miles, not long before her death -Two men were moving [sic] hay in one of her fields, the Bedwellty side of the river Ebwy Fawr, (one of whom is now an eminent man in his religious life) very early in the morning; at which time they saw the chief Servant of the House coming through the field on the other side of the river, towards them, and like a marriage company of people with some bravery, in white aprons to meet him ; they met him and passed by, but of whom he seemed to them to take no notice. They asked the servant if he saw the marriage company? he said “No”, at the same time they could hardly think any marriage could come that way, and that time of the day. This certainly must have been Fairies, and was partly a pressage of Mrs. Miles's death, and partly it may be of the marriage of her daughter, the heiress of the estate after the death of her brother Mr. John Miles, with that servant: the account of the Fairies, resembling a marriage company, could not be kept a secret from Mrs Miles, which when she heard of it, gave her a deal of uneasiness, as she understood it as a pressage of her death, as indeed it was.” (3)

http://aneurinleisure.org.uk/folklore/corpse-ways-and-fairy-weddings-in-blaenau-gwent

CillKenny
03-08-2018, 08:12 PM
The fear of the little people who live under the ground is common also to Ireland which are believed to enter our world through the remains of ringforts (lios). Even as a child we were careful not to interfere with them. If you have the time and inclination there is a veritable treasure trove of folk memory gathered in the 1930s held at UCD (https://www.ucd.ie/irishfolklore/en/about/historyofnfc/)

castle3
03-09-2018, 07:06 AM
A world that is totally random and unexplainable is impossible to live in.
We need reasons for things.
Even if they are the wrong ones. They help us stay sane.
Before germ theory, infections of various sorts were inexplicable.
Some events still are.
Blaming fairies can be better than blaming your neighbours.

I'm very down-to-earth, but I have to say that I hear a high-pitched whining noise every night when I arrive home late from the pub. It turned out it wasn't fairies though, it was my wife!

Phoebe Watts
03-09-2018, 08:56 PM
The fear of the little people who live under the ground is common also to Ireland which are believed to enter our world through the remains of ringforts (lios). Even as a child we were careful not to interfere with them. If you have the time and inclination there is a veritable treasure trove of folk memory gathered in the 1930s held at UCD (https://www.ucd.ie/irishfolklore/en/about/historyofnfc/)

Six generations and more of nonconformist chapel distanced us from our older traditions. We were taught the stories of the Mabinogi at school but it wasn't that real for us as children! Really interesting to see how similar these stories are across the Celtic countries.

rms2
03-10-2018, 01:50 AM
I'm very down-to-earth, but I have to say that I hear a high-pitched whining noise every night when I arrive home late from the pub. It turned out it wasn't fairies though, it was my wife!

Even if I stay home and drink my own whiskey, I hear that same high-pitched whining noise.

JMcB
03-10-2018, 03:34 AM
Quote Originally Posted by castle3
I'm very down-to-earth, but I have to say that I hear a high-pitched whining noise every night when I arrive home late from the pub. It turned out it wasn't fairies though, it was my wife


Even if I stay home and drink my own whiskey, I hear that same high-pitched whining noise.

I hear that no matter what kind of alcohol I drink. Unfortunately in my case; it’s not coming from a lovely woman, it’s coming from tinnitus. :-)

Saetro
03-10-2018, 07:58 AM
Quote Originally Posted by castle3
I'm very down-to-earth, but I have to say that I hear a high-pitched whining noise every night when I arrive home late from the pub.

I hear that no matter what kind of alcohol I drink. Unfortunately in my case; it’s not coming from a lovely woman, it’s coming from tinnitus. :-)

Have shared a house with someone with tinnitus, so I know it can be nasty.
There was an item on last night's TV news here about some treatment by an implant to lightly stimulate the vagus nerve to treat tinnitus.
There were no details, but the question of two apparently disconnected things was raised and they repeated that yes, there was a connection.
And to me that sounds both invasive, and maybe likely to have side effects.
But hey, it might be worth looking into.

jdean
03-10-2018, 11:39 AM
Quote Originally Posted by castle3
I'm very down-to-earth, but I have to say that I hear a high-pitched whining noise every night when I arrive home late from the pub. It turned out it wasn't fairies though, it was my wife



I hear that no matter what kind of alcohol I drink. Unfortunately in my case; it’s not coming from a lovely woman, it’s coming from tinnitus. :-)

I've had tinnitus permanently since I can't remember, as a small child I thought I was listening to the radio waves as radios let out a high pitched whistle too : )

JMcB
03-10-2018, 04:18 PM
I've had tinnitus permanently since I can't remember, as a small child I thought I was listening to the radio waves as radios let out a high pitched whistle too : )

Yes, I’ve had mine for many years, too. I’m so used to it, that most of the time I don’t even notice it. Except perhaps, when the room gets quiet or I focus on it. All things considered, it’s not a problem.

jdean
03-10-2018, 06:22 PM
Yes, I’ve had mine for many years, too. I’m so used to it, that most of the time I don’t even notice it. Except perhaps, when the room gets quiet or I focus on it. All things considered, it’s not a problem.

Certainly agree there, though possibly if somebody wasn't used to it they might find it a tad more annoying : ) Mine can compete with the TV sometimes and it's a bit of a pain when it's really loud and I'm trying to get to sleep, thankfully most of the time it's just background noise.

Still at least I have loosing the upper end of my hearing scale to look forward to when I get old : )

Saetro
03-10-2018, 08:56 PM
Have shared a house with someone with tinnitus, so I know it can be nasty.
There was an item on last night's TV news here about some treatment by an implant to lightly stimulate the vagus nerve to treat tinnitus.
There were no details, but the question of two apparently disconnected things was raised and they repeated that yes, there was a connection.
And to me that sounds both invasive, and maybe likely to have side effects.
But hey, it might be worth looking into.

Found more about this.
It is only in the research phase at the moment.
So there are some years to go.

rms2
03-10-2018, 09:10 PM
Oh, wow!

I've had tinnitus since 1996. It used to drive me nuts. Now I find it somewhat soothing, like the sound of electronic crickets.

It does interfere with my hearing, however, especially when there is background noise.

Right now I'm home alone, so my tinnitus is really loud.

CillKenny
03-10-2018, 10:08 PM
I too suffer from tinnitus. It takes all the enjoyment out of being in a quiet room for sure.

Judith
03-17-2018, 01:02 PM
The fear of the little people who live under the ground is common also to Ireland which are believed to enter our world through the remains of ringforts (lios). Even as a child we were careful not to interfere with them. If you have the time and inclination there is a veritable treasure trove of folk memory gathered in the 1930s held at UCD (https://www.ucd.ie/irishfolklore/en/about/historyofnfc/)

If the previous population were smaller in height and tended to live in marginal lands and were associated with stone circles then possibly they were the original Neolithic population (like Iberia and accepted to be shorter in height) and maybe this folk lore had some tiny link with prehistoric fact http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/monuments-built-heritage/Ancient-monuments-up-to-1/the-earthen-rath-or-lios/

Saetro
03-18-2018, 12:56 AM
If the previous population were smaller in height and tended to live in marginal lands and were associated with stone circles then possibly they were the original Neolithic population (like Iberia and accepted to be shorter in height) and maybe this folk lore had some tiny link with prehistoric fact http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/monuments-built-heritage/Ancient-monuments-up-to-1/the-earthen-rath-or-lios/

Exactly.
Or one of the other early invasions.
Many of the descriptions of the earliest of the four groups traditionally said to have come to Ireland look to me rather like those descriptions of those individuals glimpsed occasionally by the most recent settlers.

rms2
03-18-2018, 11:11 PM
Evidently the Neolithic inhabitants of Britain and Ireland were shorter and darker than the incoming Kurgan Bell Beaker people.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-19-2018, 09:11 AM
Evidently the Neolithic inhabitants of Britain and Ireland were shorter and darker than the incoming Kurgan Bell Beaker people.

I wouldn't be amazed if there are some Neolithic "remnants" in parts of Wales, maybe more evident when the Romans were around a couple of thousand years ago.

rms2
03-21-2018, 03:21 AM
I wouldn't be amazed if there are some Neolithic "remnants" in parts of Wales, maybe more evident when the Romans were around a couple of thousand years ago.

Maybe, but the people of the Celtic Fringe tend to have a higher percentage of steppe dna than the English, and Wales has its share of Bell Beaker burials. R1b-L21 in Britain was pretty obviously brought in by the Bell Beaker people, as well, and Wales is about 50% R1b-L21, same as Scotland.

rms2
03-21-2018, 11:43 PM
I would be interested in seeing the percentage of carriers of the red hair variant Arg160Trp in the Welsh population. Ancient Arg160Trp thus far has a decidedly Indo-European bent, and Wales is high in red hair variant carriers. When I was there I paid attention and noticed a lot of redheads. My youngest daughter is a redhead, and so are three of my four grandchildren (the children of my youngest son), so it's something I notice. The first time we went to Ireland, an Irish lady in security at Shannon Airport took one look at my daughter Anna and said, "She'll fit right in."

Freckles across the bridge of the nose and the cheeks, and red hair. Guess that did it.

22256

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-22-2018, 01:32 PM
I would be interested in seeing the percentage of carriers of the red hair variant Arg160Trp in the Welsh population. Ancient Arg160Trp thus far has a decidedly Indo-European bent, and Wales is high in red hair variant carriers. When I was there I paid attention and noticed a lot of redheads. My youngest daughter is a redhead, and so are three of my four grandchildren (the children of my youngest son), so it's something I notice. The first time we went to Ireland, an Irish lady in security at Shannon Airport took one look at my daughter Anna and said, "She'll fit right in."

Freckles across the bridge of the nose and the cheeks, and red hair. Guess that did it.

22256

I have Arg160Trp and Val92met. I was heavily freckled when younger, in fact it gave me my nickname in school.
I would have thought the Irish would have had considerably more than the Welsh. Interesting the Wales and the nearest regions of Ireland are quite similar. It would be interesting to see how that breaks down on a regional basis within Wales, maybe there is no significant difference, early Irish presence in the South though.

rms2
03-23-2018, 11:53 PM
I have Arg160Trp and Val92met. I was heavily freckled when younger, in fact it gave me my nickname in school.
I would have thought the Irish would have had considerably more than the Welsh. Interesting the Wales and the nearest regions of Ireland are quite similar. It would be interesting to see how that breaks down on a regional basis within Wales, maybe there is no significant difference, early Irish presence in the South though.

I'm a carrier of Arg160Trp, too, as is my dad and my youngest son. I don't know about my youngest daughter, since she hasn't been tested, but she has red hair, and her mom is a carrier of Val60Leu, so I'm guessing it's my Arg160Trp + my wife's Val60Leu that resulted in her rufous locks.

JonikW
03-24-2018, 01:00 AM
I have Asp294His, which must be through one of my Welsh sides. My maternal Jones grandfather from Cwmbran told me he was auburn when young. He looked darker when I knew him and a bit like an older version of Rob Brydon. Reminds me of my dear departed grandfather every time I see Brydon on TV...

sktibo
03-24-2018, 05:38 AM
To all of you Welsh (or mostly Welsh) folks,

I'd be very interested to see where you plot on some tests going around; in particular Lucasz's K36 and Davidski's Northern Europe PCA. Global 25 (formerly Global 10) would be pretty cool to see too if any of you have that.

Thanks!

Phoebe Watts
03-24-2018, 08:27 PM
I would be interested in seeing the percentage of carriers of the red hair variant Arg160Trp in the Welsh population. Ancient Arg160Trp thus far has a decidedly Indo-European bent, and Wales is high in red hair variant carriers. When I was there I paid attention and noticed a lot of redheads. My youngest daughter is a redhead, and so are three of my four grandchildren (the children of my youngest son), so it's something I notice. The first time we went to Ireland, an Irish lady in security at Shannon Airport took one look at my daughter Anna and said, "She'll fit right in."

Freckles across the bridge of the nose and the cheeks, and red hair. Guess that did it.

22256

Yes, I agree - if you have the opportunity, take a small redheaded child to Ireland. Even if they speak only Welsh.

Most of my family are Val92Met - mostly dark hair with red highlights. But my nephew has an ancestor from Scotland and has red hair and fair skin.

rms2
03-24-2018, 09:28 PM
I carry only one copy of the red hair variant Arg160Trp, so I started out blond but wound up as an adult with dark hair with red highlights (now going really gray as a confirmed old fart). My facial hair had a lot of red hair in it, however, as can be seen from this old university ID photo from 1973, when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

22299

My youngest son has two copies of Arg160Trp. He was a redhead at birth but then went strawberry blond, and his hair remains a kind of reddish blond today. His facial hair, when he grows it, is flaming orange.

JonikW
03-24-2018, 10:22 PM
I carry only one copy of the red hair variant Arg160Trp, so I started out blond but wound up as an adult with dark hair with red highlights (now going really gray as a confirmed old fart). My facial hair had a lot of red hair in it, however, as can be seen from this old university ID photo from 1973, when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

22299

My youngest son has two copies of Arg160Trp. He was a redhead at birth but then went strawberry blond, and his hair remains a kind of reddish blond today. His facial hair, when he grows it, is flaming orange.

I was similar. Bright copper beard in my youth. Darker (and greyer) with age.

JonikW
03-24-2018, 11:44 PM
Nothing to do with what we've been discussing but I cooked Glamorgan sausages for my family and some Spanish friends tonight, among other dishes. I've made them for friends and family in several countries over the years and they're always a hit. Anyone else do any Welsh cooking or got any old family recipes? Any old traditions handed down? Marigold petals in cawl is one interesting one that I know of.

sktibo
03-25-2018, 12:00 AM
Nothing to do with what we've been discussing but I cooked Glamorgan sausages for my family and some Spanish friends tonight, among other dishes. I've made them for friends and family in several countries over the years and they're always a hit. Anyone else do any Welsh cooking or got any old family recipes? Any old traditions handed down? Marigold petals in cawl is one interesting one that I know of.

"Welsh Cakes" were something my dad's grandmother would make, and my aunts talk about a fair bit. When we dug out the old recipe and made them, I thought they tasted pretty funny but it seemed to be really nostalgic for my dad and his sisters. Lots of recipes for baked goods.. I know that tradition was passed down to my grandmother but I fear that tradition may have ended with her.. I am certainly not culinarily inclined enough to keep it going...

JonikW
03-25-2018, 12:38 AM
"Welsh Cakes" were something my dad's grandmother would make, and my aunts talk about a fair bit. When we dug out the old recipe and made them, I thought they tasted pretty funny but it seemed to be really nostalgic for my dad and his sisters. Lots of recipes for baked goods.. I know that tradition was passed down to my grandmother but I fear that tradition may have ended with her.. I am certainly not culinarily inclined enough to keep it going...

You should! Very traditional. There are some good bakeries that do them in Swansea market, among other Welsh goodies. Laver bread; that's another great ingredient and great for a bacon fry-up. A proper Gower breakfast.

jdean
03-25-2018, 01:10 AM
You should! Very traditional. There are some good bakeries that do them in Swansea market, among other Welsh goodies. Laver bread; that's another great ingredient and great for a bacon fry-up. A proper Gower breakfast.

Love laverbread bread, it formed part of the meal at my wedding : )

Something I've only heard of but never seen is elvers cooked in a bread tin then left to set in their jelly, the resulting cake is then sliced and fried as part of a breakfast.

JonikW
03-25-2018, 10:02 AM
Love laverbread bread, it formed part of the meal at my wedding : )

Something I've only heard of but never seen is elvers cooked in a bread tin then left to set in their jelly, the resulting cake is then sliced and fried as part of a breakfast.

That sounds tasty. I keep meaning to cook laver bread and oatmeal cakes, fried in bacon fat and served with a fry-up. Maybe next weekend...