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Volat
03-21-2016, 10:03 PM
Will try to look for "Vihod Venetov na avanscenu" material. It had some interesting ideas, author - Belarussian archeologyst claimed there were no Balts in Belarus before AD, but those guys were "common substrate" for Belarussians and (East) Balts, who expanded West just shortly before Slavs. Or that was how I read into it :)


The author V. Nosevich is a good historian publishing excellent material. He is working for state archives of Belarus but he is not an archaeologist. From the text you posted , the division between east and west Baltic happened after the latter mixed with people of stroke ceramic culture around 2,000 years ago. This begs a question - what language did people of stroke ceramic culture speak around 2,000 years ago? Surely, it wasn't paleo-European. No archaeologist suggested it was a proto-Slavic culture either.

Volat
03-21-2016, 10:07 PM
Not necessarily re quote above:
What do you think of Nosevich? Is he regarded good in Belarus? He seems to promote West to East direction for modern Balts.

He is regarded as a good historian. All my encounters with his published work was related to history of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, medieval Slavs and history of the last millennium.

parastais
03-21-2016, 10:36 PM
The author V. Nosevich is a good historian publishing excellent material. He is working for state archives of Belarus but he is not an archaeologist. From the text you posted , the division between east and west Baltic happened after the latter mixed with people of stroke ceramic culture around 2,000 years ago. This begs a question - what language did people of stroke ceramic culture speak around 2,000 years ago? Surely, it wasn't paleo-European. No archaeologist suggested it was a proto-Slavic culture either.
Balto-Slavic of some kind... that would be my guess. But was it direct ancestor to any of survived branches - East B, West B, Slavic? No idea. Definitely a substrate shared by East B and East S. Probably Baltic phonetically and probably best manifested in East Baltic languages.

In Latvian I love to check out etymologies of different words, and they are sometimes quite strange. Indo-European. Mostly Satem, but it seems like different dialects going back and forth. Asmens/akmens (ašmuo/akmuo) is not well explained for example. Blade/ stone. Satem/Centum.

Volat
03-21-2016, 10:49 PM
Balto-Slavic of some kind... that would be my guess. But was it direct ancestor to any of survived branches - East B, West B, Slavic? No idea. Definitely a substrate shared by East B and East S. Probably Baltic phonetically and probably best manifested in East Baltic languages.

They could speak a transitional dialect as some scholars postulated. Stroke ceramic cultures cover the area where Aukstaitians and Latgalians appeared. The area is also full of Baltic hydronyms. Nosevich has a point. Stroke ceramic culture is related to west Baltic kurgans and Dniepr-Dvina cultures. I remember reading anthropologist Chesnis suggesting Aukstatians and Latgalians may have arrived latter. East Lithuanian Kurgan (the culture of original Lithuanians) succeeded stroke ceramic culture in eastern Lithuania and north-western Belarus.

Gravetto-Danubian
03-21-2016, 10:54 PM
If not Z280 then what is it? Z282? A dead branch of R1a?



The spread of Z280 along Dniepr from Ukraine into Belarus and further north is possible. Ukraine is not a central Europe.



Modern day Balts are a mixture of paleo Europeans and Indo-Europeans. East Baltic is an isolated region in which people mixed the least in comparison to other Europeans, so they have most WHG.




I am right on this one. The same proto-language emerges in the same region and not 3,000 km apart.

Volat, You're wrong about everything.
"Modern day Balts are a mixture of paleo Europeans and Indo-Europeans." - yes, in the simple world. But really, its much more complex than this. 'Balts' formed considerably later, and are NOT the descendants of the earliest CWC people.
if you continually fail to understand basic genetics and archaeology (i.e. that CWC was R1a1-xZ280), then there's little point discussing.

"The same proto-language emerges in the same region and not 3,000 km apart"
No I am talking about 'formative influences". But clearly, Balto-Slavic came to be spoken over a wide area of EE, through various forms of interaction, not just your simple scenario of "up the Dnieper in the Eneolithic"

" What old antiquated and ideologically driven material has anyone referenced in this discussion ?"
basically, everything related to Balts & Slavs coming out of Belarus & Russia is a function of nationalist dogma, and 'wishes' to place the arrival of Slavs long before they actually arrived.

Volat
03-21-2016, 10:57 PM
@parastais

Is Latgalian and Dzukian (south Aukstaitian) are more mutually understandable than standard Lithuanian and standard Latvian? It feels like these groups of Balts are more closely related to each other given geographic proximity and historic connection through archaeological cultures.

Volat
03-21-2016, 10:59 PM
Volat, You're wrong about everything.
"Modern day Balts are a mixture of paleo Europeans and Indo-Europeans." - yes, in the simple world. But really, its much more complex than this. 'Balts' formed considerably later, and are NOT the descendants of the earliest CWC people.
if you continually fail to understand basic genetics and archaeology (i.e. that CWC was R1a1-xZ280), then there's little point discussing.

"The same proto-language emerges in the same region and not 3,000 km apart"
No I am talking about 'formative influences". But clearly, Balto-Slavic came to be spoken over a wide area of EE, through various forms of interaction, not just your simple scenario of "up the Dnieper in the Eneolithic"

" What old antiquated and ideologically driven material has anyone referenced in this discussion ?"
basically, everything related to Balts & Slavs coming out of Belarus & Russia is a function of nationalist dogma, and 'wishes' to place the arrival of Slavs long before they actually arrived.


Okay, buddy!

Gravetto-Danubian
03-21-2016, 11:03 PM
Okay, buddy!

But Ill give you a theory which will make you happy, because I like you.
Day 0 ; God came to earth
Day 1 : God made Belarussians.

The end
:)

parastais
03-22-2016, 05:41 AM
@parastais

Is Latgalian and Dzukian (south Aukstaitian) are more mutually understandable than standard Lithuanian and standard Latvian? It feels like these groups of Balts are more closely related to each other given geographic proximity and historic connection through archaeological cultures.
Intuitively Central Latvian and Zemaitian is one group and Latgalian and Dzukian other.
Academically I read something on relatedness of Baltic dialects long time ago, but forgot :))
Literary Lithuanian is derived from language at the very root of all East Baltic (OK, it is even not that far from Balto-Slavic roots).

In general Old version was Baltic tribes under Slavic pressure goes (North)West to Baltics.
New version Proto-Latvian tribes descend from West Lith-Lat cultures impact on local Stroke Ceramics.
I have a feel truth is in between. And has to do with two groups as mentioned above.

Volat
03-22-2016, 08:53 AM
Literary Lithuanian is derived from language at the very root of all East Baltic

Literary Lithuanian is based on western Aukstatian spoken in Suvalkija. The dialect is also similar to dialect spoken in Lithuania Minor. On which dialect is based literary Latvian?


(OK, it is even not that far from Balto-Slavic roots).

I don't how close is Lithuanian to Balto-Slavic root. When I listen to Lithuanians living not far from Belarus it feels like if I start listening to them carefully I will begin to understand the language. But I can't. :)

Volat
04-01-2016, 05:30 AM
Good discussion of R1a migration during Bronze Age from University in Budapest published last year. http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/viewFile/6837/6563

The author does not believe the European branch of R1a originated in central Europe (Poland or Germany). The likely origin of R1a is Yamna. From Yamna European sub-branches expanded northward. From there in western direction with Corded-ware expansion.

Generalissimo
04-01-2016, 05:56 AM
Good discussion of R1a migration during Bronze Age from University in Budapest published last year. http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/viewFile/6837/6563

The author does not believe the European branch of R1a originated in central Europe (Poland or Germany). The likely origin of R1a is Yamna. From Yamna European sub-branches expanded northward. From there in western direction with Corded-ware expansion.

This is idiotic...


Then in the next step, splitting into a western and an eastern flank around 5000-4500 BC, with the western flank marked by the L664 subclade of R1a1a, and founding the Neolithic Rössen culture (4600-4300 BC) along the Danube river as far west as Germany, and an eastern flank marked by non-L664 R1a1a, founding the Chalcolitic Cucuteni culture(4800-3000BC) in present day Romania, Moldova and Ukraine.

Volat
04-01-2016, 06:59 AM
This is idiotic...

Regardless of his conclusion on possible migration paths the summary of R1a markers during the Bronze Age tested so far is good.

Kristiina
04-01-2016, 09:14 AM
According to the paper, the likely origin of R1a is Yamna because
"ancient autosomal DNA analysis do show clear descent of the Corded Ware population from Yamna. So although not by YDNA but by autosomal DNA, the Yamna-piece of the puzzle also clearly matches the rest of the pieces, at least in a sense that the R1a dominated population of Corded Ware clearly originates from Yamna."

However, according to yfull, R1a and R1b separated 22 000 ago and Yamna cultures have only yielded R1b (Z2103), so the logical conclusion should rather be that Corded Ware resembles Yamna autosomally because of female geneflow.

But, I do not know how hard evidence this autosomal similarity is because several Uralic groups show high autosomal affinity to these cultures such as Estonians to Corded Ware and Udmurts to Yamna and almost everybody here is willing to dismiss their Yamna origin.

To me it looks like there are people who think that there must have been R1a1 in Yamna but it has not yet been discovered and when this R1b and R1a1 saturated-Yamna population migrated en masse to Corded Ware area and replaced all preceding populations, Yamna R1b (Z2103) disappeared and the small fraction of R1a1 which has not yet been discovered increased to near fixation.

Coldmountains
04-01-2016, 09:41 AM
According to the paper, the likely origin of R1a is Yamna because
"ancient autosomal DNA analysis do show clear descent of the Corded Ware population from Yamna. So although not by YDNA but by autosomal DNA, the Yamna-piece of the puzzle also clearly matches the rest of the pieces, at least in a sense that the R1a dominated population of Corded Ware clearly originates from Yamna."

However, according to yfull, R1a and R1b separated 22 000 ago and Yamna cultures have only yielded R1b (Z2103), so the logical conclusion should rather be that Corded Ware resembles Yamna autosomally because of female geneflow.

But, I do not know how hard evidence this autosomal similarity is because several Uralic groups show high autosomal affinity to these cultures such as Estonians to Corded Ware and Udmurts to Yamna and almost everybody here is willing to dismiss their Yamna origin.

To me it looks like there are people who think that there must have been R1a1 in Yamna but it has not yet been discovered and when this R1b and R1a1 saturated-Yamna population migrated en masse to Corded Ware area and replaced all preceding populations, Yamna R1b (Z2103) disappeared and the small fraction of R1a1 which has not yet been discovered increased to near fixation.

R1a1a1d2a has been found in Yamnaya . I dont think Corded Ware R1a is directly from Yamnaya but there was surely some R1a among the lower ranks in Yamnaya and actually the R1a grave was described as being very typical for Yamnaya. There was also surely some R1b in Corded Ware and maybe even in Andronovo/Sintashta but we just see the genomes of the elite there so we can not exclude that among lower ranks other steppe lineages existed. Modern Uralics west of the Ural have a lot of Corded Ware and Yamnaya admixture this is hard to deny and obvious from their genomes.

Kristiina
04-01-2016, 10:04 AM
Yes, I agree, but R1a1a1d2a has not been found in Corded Ware, at least according to Genetiker's analysis. Does anybody know what this R1a1a1d2a is in yfull tree?

Michał
04-01-2016, 11:10 AM
Yes, I agree, but R1a1a1d2a has not been found in Corded Ware, at least according to Genetiker's analysis. Does anybody know what this R1a1a1d2a is in yfull tree?
There is no such clade in any haplotree I have seen so far. Most likely, it was a typo and this was R1a1a1b2a, which would then correspond to Z94.
One thing that worries me a bit is that all this is still unofficial (ie. not published) and when Kuznetsov summarizes all Yamna and Poltavka Y-DNA results from the Samara (or Middle Volga) region that are known to him (in his another post in the same discussion) he mentions only one R1a case, while with this additional R1a result there should be two of them (if counting the "famous" Poltavka outlier).

Generalissimo
04-01-2016, 11:31 AM
Regardless of his conclusion on possible migration paths the summary of R1a markers during the Bronze Age tested so far is good.

No it's not.

Generalissimo
04-01-2016, 11:39 AM
There is no such clade in any haplotree I have seen so far. Most likely, it was a typo and this was R1a1a1b2a, which would then correspond to Z94.
One thing that worries me a bit is that all this is still unofficial (ie. not published) and when Kuznetsov summarizes all Yamna and Poltavka Y-DNA results from the Samara (or Middle Volga) region that are known to him (in his another post in the same discussion) he mentions only one R1a case, while with this additional R1a result there should be two of them (if counting the "famous" Poltavka outlier).

Poltavka outlier is a 35-45 year old male, and from a different site than the purported R1a Yamnaya teenager.

Shaikorth
04-01-2016, 02:50 PM
But, I do not know how hard evidence this autosomal similarity is because several Uralic groups show high autosomal affinity to these cultures such as Estonians to Corded Ware and Udmurts to Yamna and almost everybody here is willing to dismiss their Yamna origin.


There was no Yamnaya in Volga-Kama region, or the area between it and Oka, from which Uralic languages were supposed to spread from. That's why it's more reasonable to assume any similarities dating to that period would be due to shared ancestry rather than Yamnaya admixture.

Michał
04-01-2016, 03:56 PM
Poltavka outlier is a 35-45 year old male, and from a different site than the purported R1a Yamnaya teenager.
Correct. Nevertheless, Kuznetsov's unofficial statements are apparently inconsistent, which introduces some confusion and thus requires additional confirmation/explanation.

Kristiina
04-01-2016, 04:24 PM
There was no Yamnaya in Volga-Kama region, or the area between it and Oka, from which Uralic languages were supposed to spread from. That's why it's more reasonable to assume any similarities dating to that period would be due to shared ancestry rather than Yamnaya admixture.

Shaikorth, I see your point, but I do not think that genes of Finnic people came to a big extent from Volga-Kama region. Autosomal analysis does not support that (if I remember correctly, for example, the share of Ket Uralic component is c. 5% in Finns and surely less in Estonians). Even if Uralic languages may have come from Volga Kama, Finnic genes mostly did not, and we still lack all ancient DNA from the relevant areas.

However, I accept that Yamna like-ancestry in Finnic people did not come directly from Yamna culture and neither from Volga.

Part of Finnish Yamna ancestry may have come from Fatyanovo which is equally related to Yamna as Corded Ware but correct me if I am wrong.

Volat
04-01-2016, 04:42 PM
Shaikorth, I see your point, but I do not think that genes of Finnic people came to a big extent from Volga-Kama region. Autosomal analysis does not support that (if I remember correctly, for example, the share of Ket Uralic component is c. 5% in Finns and surely less in Estonians). Even if Uralic languages may have come from Volga Kama, Finnic genes mostly did not, and we still lack all ancient DNA from the relevant areas.

If I remember correctly Komi share plenty with Karelians and east Finns. Komi are considered to be from Volga-Ural region. Northern Ural to be precise.

Volat
04-01-2016, 04:47 PM
In fact many Komi share more genetic ancestry with Finns than Estonians as per 23andme analysis.



Komi


http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/Genetika/Untitled_zpspxyiiebg.png




http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/Genetika/Untitleda_zpsw9ixq3jy.png





Estonian





http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/Genetika/eee-Untitled_zpssvbifpg4.png





Finn



http://www.elisanet.fi/mauri_my/23kuva2.gif

Shaikorth
04-01-2016, 05:16 PM
Shaikorth, I see your point, but I do not think that genes of Finnic people came to a big extent from Volga-Kama region. Autosomal analysis does not support that (if I remember correctly, for example, the share of Ket Uralic component is c. 5% in Finns and surely less in Estonians). Even if Uralic languages may have come from Volga Kama, Finnic genes mostly did not, and we still lack all ancient DNA from the relevant areas.

However, I accept that Yamna like-ancestry in Finnic people did not come directly from Yamna culture and neither from Volga.

Part of Finnish Yamna ancestry may have come from Fatyanovo which is equally related to Yamna as Corded Ware but correct me if I am wrong.

"Ket-Uralic component" if I correctly understand what you're referring to, is from a study of modern Kets and based on modern Kets. That is not informative about the Volga Region of early Bronze Age and you can't say e.g. Estonians have no genes from there without ancient DNA.




If I remember correctly Komi share plenty with Karelians and east Finns. Komi are considered to be from Volga-Ural region. Northern Ural to be precise.

Komis share with Vepsians, through which they have some Baltic Finnic ancestry. This is visible from Srkz's IBD analysis of Komis and the zoom on a PCA I asked David to do some time ago. East Finns don't really share with Komis, more with Saamis.

https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/komiibd.png
http://oi64.tinypic.com/f0xhes.jpg

23andMe's ancestry composition is in some cases inadequate in getting a proper genomewide relationship since it's haplotype focused, in a f4 test Komis would be really distant (and probably equally distant) from both Finns and Estonians who'd be much closer to each other.

Tomenable
04-01-2016, 05:16 PM
However, according to yfull, R1a and R1b separated 22 000 ago and Yamna cultures have only yielded R1b (Z2103), so the logical conclusion should rather be that Corded Ware resembles Yamna autosomally because of female geneflow.

I2c (L596) separated from I2a (L460) ca. 21700 years ago, and I2a1a (L158) separated from I2a1b (M423) ca. 18500 years ago (per YFull). However, all three of those subclades - I2c2, I2a1a and I2a1b - were carried by Swedish Hunter-Gatherers who all lived around 7700 years ago and all of whom were buried at the very same cemetery near Motala. And all of them carried the same distinctive autosomal signature "SHG".

Even though their lineages "separated" from each other between 21700 and 18500 years ago, they actually lived 7700 years ago, all lived in the same region of Sweden, all had the same autosomal DNA, and were all buried near Motala. And spoke the same language.

Just because one lineage "separated" from another, doesn't mean that they did so geographically.

Throw away the idea that one reproductive community = one Y-DNA haplogroup.

Tomenable
04-01-2016, 05:28 PM
What I mean is that "separation" in a genetic sense doesn't mean that one of them said "bye, bye" and migrated 1000 kilometers away. They could still live together for thousands of years and therefore preserve the same autosomal characteristics. Motala cemetery shows that I2c, I2a1a and I2a1b continued to live together even 14,000 years after those lineages "separated". So you don't really need any "bridge exchange", because both R1a and R1b lived together, as I2c, I2a1a and I2a1b did in Sweden or elsewhere in areas with WHG / SHG people.

I2c, I2a1a and I2a1b from Motala cemetery were obviously all part of the same tribe, or ethnic group at least.

Tomenable
04-01-2016, 05:39 PM
And if we believe Genetiker, then also I1 was present in Mesolithic SHG from Sweden.

According to Genetiker a Stora Förvar sample - 7500 years old - was I1-M253. I1 separated from I2 around 27,300 years ago; and those Motala subclades of I2 mentioned before separated from each other +/- 20 kya. Yet they were all together among Mesolithic SHG.

Shaikorth
04-01-2016, 05:45 PM
And if we believe Genetiker, then also I1 was present in Mesolithic SHG from Sweden.

According to Genetiker a Stora Förvar sample - 7500 years old - was I1-M253. I1 separated from I2 around 27,300 years ago; and those Motala subclades of I2 mentioned before separated from each other +/- 20 kya. Yet they were all together among SHG peoples.

I1 has gone through a bottleneck long after Motala's time though, so it's unlikely any of us has a line from that Stora Förvar guy even if he was I1.

Tomenable
04-01-2016, 05:52 PM
So there is really no any reason to think that R1a and R1b had widely divergent (geographically and autosomally) histories.

Especially since all the evidence points to the contrary so far:

1) EHG (Karelia-Samara) - autosomally the same, both R1a and R1b
2) Khvalynsk culture - autosomally the same, both R1a and R1b
3) Yamna/CWC - autosomally very similar, both R1b and R1a

And so on, and so on. It literally screams to us: "it was one population all the time", yet people try to find distinct origins.

It was only in the Metal Ages that R1a and R1b split from each other.

And for some reason they did not split evenly, but some groups became strongly dominated by R1a and other by R1b.

Tomenable
04-01-2016, 05:54 PM
I1 has gone through a bottleneck long after Motala's time though

Yes.

Most of WHG, SHG and "Old Europe" EEF lineages apparently went through bottlenecks at the beginning of the Metal Ages.

Shaikorth
04-01-2016, 05:58 PM
Yes.

Most of WHG, SHG and "Old Europe" EEF lineages apparently went through bottlenecks at the beginning of the Metal Ages.

Not I2, the more common variant in ancient DNA. The modern I2 men in Europe have a paleolithic MRCA. We have one in early Metal Ages.

Tomenable
04-01-2016, 06:06 PM
Not I2 as a whole, but some subclades of I2 rather went through bottlenecks, or even got entirely extinct.

But evidence from aDNA indeed confirms, that I2 survived those "Post-Neolithic transitions" relatively well.

Volat
04-01-2016, 06:13 PM
Komis share with Vepsians, through which they have some Baltic Finnic ancestry. This is visible from Srkz's IBD analysis of Komis and the zoom on a PCA I asked David to do some time ago. East Finns don't really share with Komis, more with Saamis.

https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/komiibd.png
http://oi64.tinypic.com/f0xhes.jpg

23andMe's ancestry composition is in some cases inadequate in getting a proper genomewide relationship since it's haplotype focused, in a f4 test Komis would be really distant (and probably equally distant) from both Finns and Estonians who'd be much closer to each other.

Komis don't have as much east Eurasian ancestry as Saami. 23andme would have detected if they had. Often PCA plots are deceptive. I still think Komi share plenty with Karelians and east Finns. Why wouldn't they? Karelians live in the vicinity with Komi. Archangel is nearby which is former Karelian settlement.

Shaikorth
04-01-2016, 06:24 PM
Komis don't have as much east Eurasian ancestry as Saami. 23andme would have detected if they had. Often PCA plots are deceptive. I still think Komi share plenty with Karelians and east Finns. Why wouldn't they? Karelians live in the vicinity with Komi. Archangel is nearby which is former Karelian settlement.

They don't have as much as the Saami, though they aren't as close to European hunter-gatherers or early steppe groups either so they probably have quite different histories. If the Komis had substantial IBD sharing with East Finns or Karelians it would show on Srkz's IBD analysis, but that just shows a strong Vepsian link. If there were Karelians more related to Komis living in Archangelsk, they're now absorbed into Russians and modern Karelians aren't descended from them.

Kristiina
04-01-2016, 09:58 PM
Yes, it is a pity that we do not have any ancient DNA from Volga-Kama. Shaikorth, that IBD analysis is interesting but not very easy to interpret. I see that there is more reddish Komi-Veps color in Balts than in Estonians and Finns. I do not know of any archaeological culture that would correspond to that area. However, Wikipedia tells us that “from the 12th century the Russians began to expand into the Perm region and the Komis came into contact with Novgorod. Novgorodian traders travelled to the region in search of furs and animal hides”. Vepsans could genetically be close to ancient Novgorod people and be thereby related to Komis.

Tomenable, in principle, I do not disagree with you at all, but the problem is that you cannot say that the same y lines are found in Yamnaya and Corded Ware. You need to prove that there is a yDNA path from Yamnaya to Europe on a time scale that would fit. At the moment, we have only R1b-Z2103 in Yamnaya and one possible R1a-Z94, neither of which have been found in Corded Ware, and R1b in Bell Beaker is R1b-L51. According to yfull L51 diverged from Z2103 6200 years ago which is c. 4200 BC which is beyond the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker horizon. IMO, your model is genetically too simple, and linguistically quite extreme if you claim that Proto-IE was spoken 3200 BC in Yamnaya, 3200 in Fatyanovo and 3300 BC in Afanasievo in Altai and even 3700 BC in Maikop and everywhere with a nearly total replacement of earlier inhabitants.

Gravetto-Danubian
04-01-2016, 11:13 PM
I2c (L596) separated from I2a (L460) ca. 21700 years ago, and I2a1a (L158) separated from I2a1b (M423) ca. 18500 years ago (per YFull). However, all three of those subclades - I2c2, I2a1a and I2a1b - were carried by Swedish Hunter-Gatherers who all lived around 7700 years ago and all of whom were buried at the very same cemetery near Motala. And all of them carried the same distinctive autosomal signature "SHG".

Even though their lineages "separated" from each other between 21700 and 18500 years ago, they actually lived 7700 years ago, all lived in the same region of Sweden, all had the same autosomal DNA, and were all buried near Motala.

What is important is that they might have had differing migratory trajectories. Ie arrived to Motala via different ways, means and times


And spoke the same language.
Time machine ?
Hunter gatherers are quite linguistically diverse . What means, all the various R1 & I mesolithic lineages spoke different languages to each other - but not because they are different to each other, rather because they lived in different, dispersed areas.

Gravetto-Danubian
04-01-2016, 11:40 PM
IMO, your model is genetically too simple, and linguistically quite extreme if you claim that Proto-IE was spoken 3200 BC in Yamnaya, 3200 in Fatyanovo and 3300 BC in Afanasievo in Altai and even 3700 BC in Maikop and everywhere with a nearly total replacement of earlier inhabitants.

if all R1 groups were one big community, as Tomenable suggests, speaking one language (or dialects thereof) then we should just push the origins of IE to Palaeolithic Russia. Of course, I'd consider this is as non sense.

Many opinions expressed often lack a significant understanding of sociolinguistics and demographic trends, coupled with a personal wish to be descended from "steppe lords" (which quite simply did not even exist in Yamnaya).

Volat
04-02-2016, 01:56 AM
They don't have as much as the Saami, though they aren't as close to European hunter-gatherers or early steppe groups either so they probably have quite different histories. If the Komis had substantial IBD sharing with East Finns or Karelians it would show on Srkz's IBD analysis, but that just shows a strong Vepsian link. If there were Karelians more related to Komis living in Archangelsk, they're now absorbed into Russians and modern Karelians aren't descended from them.


IBD segments are broken by recombination in each generation and the number of IBD segments decreases with each generation exponentially. With each generation a number of common segments inherited in the order of 100cM. After 25 generations (750 years assuming each generation is 30 years) the expected number of ineherited segments is 2cM. For deeper ancestry the IBD segments are even smaller which can occur by chance during genome recombination. The IBD analysis are most useful for recent ancestry. Let's say 750 years. For ancient ancestry Y-chromosome markers are more useful. The greater relatedness between Veps and Komi could be marginal due to noise. I'd like to see the actual numbers of IBD analysis in which Komi, Karelian , Estonian, Finns, Saami feature.

Generalissimo
04-02-2016, 02:35 AM
if all R1 groups were one big community, as Tomenable suggests, speaking one language (or dialects thereof) then we should just push the origins of IE to Palaeolithic Russia.

R-M269 and R-M417 were in the one community that gave rise to PIE around 3500 BC.

Generalissimo
04-02-2016, 02:38 AM
In fact many Komi share more genetic ancestry with Finns than Estonians as per 23andme analysis.

The 23andMe analysis is a supervised test in which the makers of the test made some very broad assumptions about the reference samples they used based on a few diagnostic PCA plots and self-reported ancestry.

So your arguments based on the 23andMe results aren't very convincing.

Volat
04-02-2016, 03:12 AM
The 23andMe analysis is a supervised test in which the makers of the test made some very broad assumptions about the reference samples they used based on a few diagnostic PCA plots and self-reported ancestry.

So your arguments based on the 23andMe results aren't very convincing.

In 23andme Finnish ancestry is based on Finnish samples. A Finn would have Finnish ancestry stated explicitly more than other ethnicities. We also see Finnish ancestry among Estonians, Karelians, Komi , some Russians.

Generalissimo
04-02-2016, 03:44 AM
In 23andme Finnish ancestry is based on Finnish samples. A Finn would have Finnish ancestry stated explicitly more than other ethnicities. We also see Finnish ancestry among Estonians, Karelians, Komi , some Russians.

You don't see Finnish ancestry in Estonians, Karelians, Komi and some Russians, you see "Finnish ancestry".

The reason it's "Finnish ancestry" instead of Finnish ancestry, is because there are no Estonian, Karelian, Komi and north Russian samples and/or clusters in the analysis.

Do you understand?

Volat
04-02-2016, 04:00 AM
You don't see Finnish ancestry in Estonians, Karelians, Komi and some Russians, you see "Finnish ancestry".[/QUOTE\]

The reason it's "Finnish ancestry" instead of Finnish ancestry, is because there are no Estonian, Karelian, Komi and north Russian samples and/or clusters in the analysis. Do you understand?

That's the assumption to reference population you were talking about earlier. East European ancestry is based samples from Russia, Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Belarus, Slovenia, Russia from Kargopol. Scandinavian ancestry is based on samples from Norway, Sweden, Denmark. Balkan. North-west European, south European have their own samples.

Russians from the north are represented in the test. I don't know about Estonians.

You can call the ancestry as you wish. The fact is that Finns, northern Russians, Komi, Estonians share the same ancestry which peaks among the Finns and other ethnicities lack.

Do you understand this?

Generalissimo
04-02-2016, 04:22 AM
Russians from the north are represented in the test.

But Volat, you also said...


East European ancestry is based samples from Russia, Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Belarus, Slovenia, Russia from Kargopol.

So here's the million dollar question Volat: how is the algorithm supposed to accurately pick up North Russian-specific ancestry, when North Russians make up a small amount of the East European reference pool, and so their haplotypes are diluted?


You can call the ancestry as you wish. The fact is that Finns, northern Russians, Komi, Estonians share the same ancestry which peaks among the Finns.

I'll call it North Russian and some type of Siberian ancestry, thanks. Because that's what it is. It might also be Karelian and Vepsian, because a lot of Finns from Finland have recent ancestry of that type due to recent population movements (but how would 23andMe know that, if the borders moved in 1945?).


Do you understand this?

There's nothing to understand.

Volat
04-02-2016, 04:51 AM
But Volat, you also said...

So here's the million dollar question Volat: how is the algorithm supposed to accurately pick up North Russian-specific ancestry, when North Russians make up a small amount of the East European reference pool, and so their haplotypes are diluted?


But we are not discussing what 'ancestry' picks among northern Russians, Estonians, Komi, Karelians. You can accurately pick-up north Russian ancestry then putting east Finns in the mix who will have 'north Russian ancestry'. You don't have to be a genious to know that northern Russians , Karelians and east Finns share the same ancestry given recorded history of Finnic settlements in northern Russia, who were assimilated in the last 500-700 years.




I'll call it North Russian and some type of Siberian ancestry, thanks. Because that's what it is. It might also be Karelian and Vepsian, because a lot of Finns from Finland have recent ancestry of that type due to recent population movements (but how would 23andMe know that, if the borders moved in 1945?).

23andme do not concern about the names they give to ancestries or border movements. They can label 'ancestries' from A to Z. There are numerous tests confirming common origins of northern Russians, Karelians and other Finnic population be it genome-wide analysis, similarities in y-chromosome markers or IBD analysis. Besides, 23andme provides one of the most accurate genome-wide analysis for individuals of European descent.




There's nothing to understand.

Are you sure?

Generalissimo
04-02-2016, 05:03 AM
Are you sure?

Yes, of course I'm sure.

You just imagined to yourself that the 23andMe analysis is useful for population genetics, and now you'll keep arguing this point no matter what. That's the Volat way!

Just like you thought Fst was the cutting edge method in population genetics (LOL). Do you even know what formal statistics are? Can you finally tell the difference between ADMIXTOOLS and ADMIXTURE? Haha.

Volat
04-02-2016, 05:26 AM
Yes, of course I'm sure.

You just imagined to yourself that the 23andMe analysis is useful for population genetics, and now you'll keep arguing this point no matter what. That's the Volat way!

It's useful in the light of absence of quality analyses for certain populations. Here's a map from Genetic atlas of human amixture history Hellenthal et al (2014). The analysis shows that Finns have Russian-like (northern Russian from Kargopol) admixture.



http://i.imgur.com/NOhIKCq.png




Just like you thought Fst was the cutting edge method in population genetics (LOL). Do you even know what formal statistics are? Can you finally tell the difference between ADMIXTOOLS and ADMIXTURE? Haha.

Ran out arguments quickly?

I've told you before spending your days on several forums trying to find answers to every question using ADMIXTOOLS won't convince many people. I guess if you have hammer (ADMIXTOOLS) then everything else looks like a nail. Pair-wise index (Fst) is an old methodology with some limitations. Although, the index has been improved in the last 15 years. Fst is one of the most widely used index in population genetics to determine genetic distances between populations. You won't find anything better. If you can then you will become famous. I also know about statistics more than you.

Shaikorth
04-02-2016, 06:06 AM
It's useful in the light of absence of quality analyses for certain populations. Here's a map from Genetic atlas of human amixture history Hellenthal et al (2014). The analysis shows that Finns have Russian-like (northern Russian from Kargopol) admixture.



http://i.imgur.com/NOhIKCq.png




Ran out arguments quickly?

I've told you before spending your days on several forums trying to find answers to every question using ADMIXTOOLS won't convince many people. I guess if you have hammer (ADMIXTOOLS) then everything else looks like a nail. Pair-wise index (Fst) is an old methodology with some limitations. Although, the index has been improved in the last 15 years. Fst is one of the most widely used index in population genetics to determine genetic distances between populations. You won't any better anything better. If you can then you will become famous. I also know about statistics more than you.

That Hellenthal et al. study was already questionable when it was published. Their methodology also gives zero admixture of any kind to Northwest Europeans and proposed Lithuanians are heavily African. And it finds North Russian migrations everywhere, even though they've been fairly static.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/2ai3dk8.jpg

You should look at Busby et al's more recent study which is more stable. They even note that the "Mongolian" in North Russians isn't really Mongolian but something else.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yRHQLYENOFQ/Vfzfp-0wSYI/AAAAAAAAKK4/q9cEarLX_zQ/s1600/gr4.jpg


When it comes to modern Karelians they are significantly closer to Estonians than to North Russians and especially Komi. They're even closer to West Russians from Andreapol, Tver than to Komi and Kargopol. This is because Komis have historically had little influence in the Eastern Baltic even when they were more widespread in Northern Russia. More negative = more distant from Karelia.

Estonia East_Finland Karelia Mbuti -0.0031 Z -3.646
Ru_Tver East_Finland Karelia Mbuti -0.0080 Z -6.382
Kargopol East_Finland Karelia Mbuti -0.0095 Z -9.287
Komi East_Finland Karelia Mbuti -0.0165 Z -18.083

Volat
04-02-2016, 06:26 AM
Shaikorth

Many published studies have limitations. Given these limitations in most studies Finns, northern Russians, Karelians, Veps, Estonians share some common ancestry.

My interest is about Komi people. Komi people are not a homogeneous group of people. Some Komi lived for centuries next to Karelians.


As a Finn do you think east Finns, Karelians, Veps, some Komi share common ancestry given all available evidence eg historic, archaeological, ethnographic, linguistic, genome-wide (all studies), similarities in y-chromosome markers?

Shaikorth
04-02-2016, 06:38 AM
Shaikorth

Many published studies have limitations. Given these limitations in most studies Finns, northern Russians, Karelians, Veps, Estonians share some common ancestry.

My interest is about Komi people. Komi people are not a homogeneous group of people. Some Komi lived for centuries next to Karelians.


As a Finn do you think east Finns, Karelians, Veps, some Komi share common ancestry given all available evidence eg historic, archaeological, ethnographic, linguistic, genome-wide (all studies), similarities in y-chromosome markers?

They have common ancestry from the proto-Uralic period at least, though that extends also to Estonians, Mordovians and to other peoples. But past the point when Komi ethnicity had formed, not really perhaps that Vepsian thing excluded. I wouldn't have believed that either before I saw the IBD and PCA evidence. The ancestors of Russians from Pinega region may have been Karelians or Vepsians with Komi admixture but that has no relation to modern Karelians. Outside Baltic-Finnic group the people living next to Karelians historically were the Saamis.

Volat
04-02-2016, 06:40 AM
I never understood why some Finns are trying to distance themselves from people of Volga-Ural region. In my opinion Finnic people outside of Finland and Estonia have rich culture. I've watched documentaries about folklore of northern Russia. Northern Russia has stunning wooden architecture. Some buildings are recognised by UNESCO. Common folks of northern Russia have larger decorated houses than those of southern Russia or Belarus. Northern Russians have beautiful folklore, clothing, ancient ornaments. Assimilated Finnic people preserved old Slavic dialects in northern Russia. Last and not least northern Russians have beautiful women. In many genetic analyses these people have east Eurasian ancestry, which does not reflect in their physical appearance. I accept northern Russians as Slavs despite their ancestry. These people enriched east Slavic culture.

Shaikorth
04-02-2016, 06:50 AM
I never understood why some Finns are trying to distance themselves from people of Volga-Ural region. In my opinion Finnic people outside of Finland and Estonia have rich culture. I've watched documentaries about folklore of northern Russia. Northern Russia has stunning wooden architecture. Some buildings are recognised by UNESCO. Common folks of northern Russia have larger decorated houses than those of southern Russia or Belarus. Northern Russians have beautiful folklore, clothing, ancient ornaments. Assimilated Finnic people preserved old Slavic dialects in northern Russia. Last and not least northern Russians have beautiful women. In many genetic analyses these people have east Eurasian ancestry, which does not reflect in their physical appearance. I accept northern Russians as Slavs despite their ancestry. These people enriched east Slavic culture.

It's pretty simple identity question. "Finnic people" in common use means the Baltic Finns. Modern Volga-Ural region has a long (measured in millennia) separate history. Russian steppe doesn't culturally concern Italic people even though they are Indo-Europeans. Myself I'm really just interested in genetics.

Volat
04-02-2016, 07:08 AM
Myself I'm really just interested in genetics.

I am interested in traditional culture / folklore of our people. History and genetics come next. I began reading about population genetics to know the origins of our people.
As a result, I don't consider Baltic Finns more foreign to us than west Europeans despite Spanish and Irish languages are linguistically closer to our language than Finnic.

Slavs became successful in north-eastern Europe after accepting non-Slavs into their community. The same goes for other large European nations -- Spaniards, English, French, Italians, Slavs of Balkans.

If Baltic Finns will distance themselves from people who are partially Finns and Slavs, eventually Baltic Finns will get assimilated. Autochthonous people of Volga Ural will become Slavs in the next 100 years and there's no doubt about this. Estonians are holding strong in the meant time. Although 30% of Estonian population is speaking Russian. Estonian Russians are heavily mixed with Estonians. I hope Estonians keep their culture and language, but I don't think they will be able in the next 500 years given there're onlyu 900,000 ethnic Estonians in Estonia who already have Balto-Slavic ancestry.

Finns accept Russian immigrants and Russians immigrants are happy to assimilate into Finnish culture as far as I know. So Finns may survive cultural assimilation the longest.

Shaikorth
04-02-2016, 07:24 AM
If Baltic Finns will distance themselves from people who are partially Finns and Slavs, eventually Baltic Finns will get assimilated. Autochthonous people of Volga Ural will become Slavs in the next 100 years and there's no doubt about this.

This is really going off topic, but: the Volga-Ural people were in the process of being assimilated by Turkics before Slavs arrived. These things happen to small ethnicities regardless of their consent, and for the one getting assimilated it doesn't make much difference whether the assimilating culture speaks a related language or not (Celts being assimilated by French and English, Saamis being assimilated by Finns, Norwegians, Swedes and Russians, Belorussians by Russians, Kalash by Muslim Indo-Iranians). If there is a threat of assimilation resisting it or not is a matter of politics, Estonians (or Finns or Karelians) being genetically related to Balts and Slavs doesn't really make difference. Hungarians are the most numerous and probably least threatened Uralic ethnicity and genetically they are similar to their neighbours.

Volat
04-02-2016, 07:51 AM
This is really going off topic, but: the Volga-Ural people were in the process of being assimilated by Turkics before Slavs arrived. These things happen to small ethnicities regardless of their consent, and for the one getting assimilated it doesn't make much difference whether the assimilating culture speaks a related language or not (Celts being assimilated by French and English, Saamis being assimilated by Finns, Norwegians, Swedes and Russians, Belorussians by Russians, Kalash by Muslim Indo-Iranians). If there is a threat of assimilation resisting it or not is a matter of politics, Estonians (or Finns or Karelians) being genetically related to Balts and Slavs doesn't really make difference. Hungarians are the most numerous and probably least threatened Uralic ethnicity and genetically they are similar to their neighbours.


I agree with you about our discussion going off-topic.


East Slavs is the largest ethnicity in eastern Europe and Siberia. I can see small Siberian ethnicities disappearing within Russian (Slavic) community. Even larger ethnicities such as Chuvashes, Kazan Tatars, Mari get culturally assimilated by the Russians nowadays. I read Kazan Tatars discussing saying they are eager to keep their cultural identities but they can't. Tatar children speak Russian natively. Tatars change their names so their names sound Russian. Not long ago I listened to Chuvashes speaking Oghur (Turkic) language, which sounded as if native Russians were trying to speak a foreign language.


I knew a Tatar girl during my undergraduate years; she changed her name from Nailia to Nellya, so her name sounded more Russian. I don't think Finno-Ugric people of Russia will keep their cultural identities. People will read about them in books. I don't think Estonians will be able to keep their cultural identity in the next 300 years either.

Shaikorth
04-02-2016, 08:13 AM
I agree with you about our discussion going off-topic.


East Slavs is the largest ethnicity in eastern Europe and Siberia. I can see small Siberian ethnicities disappearing within Russian (Slavic) community. Even larger ethnicities such as Chuvashes, Kazan Tatars, Mari get culturally assimilated by the Russians nowadays. I read Kazan Tatars discussing saying they are eager to keep their cultural identities but they can't. Tatar children speak Russian natively. Tatars change their names so their names sound Russian. Not long ago I listened to Chuvashes speaking Oghur (Turkic) language, which sounded as if native Russians were trying to speak a foreign language.


I knew a Tatar girl during my undergraduate years; she changed her name from Nailia to Nellya, so her name sounded more Russian. I don't think Finno-Ugric people of Russia will keep their cultural identities. People will read about them in books. I don't think Estonians will be able to keep their cultural identity in the next 300 years either.

Many minorities in Russia are moribund, but the Uralic speakers of Volga Region such as Maris would have assimilated into Turkics instead if there were no Russians - on top of Russian effect Mari has massive influence from both Tatars and Chuvashes still. For Estonians or Latvians, even with large Russian minorities, it is a political decision because Russian speakers are not dominant there - if they are going to lose their language it would not be too surprising if they within some centuries all become English speakers. The situation of Belarusian language looks more grim, and in that case the assimilating language will most likely be Russian (http://m.dw.com/uk/%D0%B1%D1%96%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%8C%D 0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0-%D0%B2-%D0%B1%D1%96%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%96-%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B6%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B8%D 0%B9-%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%83%D1%81-%D1%87%D0%B8-%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D1%96%D 1%8F/a-19063646?maca=ukr-VGUS-Link-YedynkaUpMobileManual-dwukr).

Volat
04-02-2016, 08:35 AM
Many minorities in Russia are moribund, but the Uralic speakers of Volga Region such as Maris would have assimilated into Turkics instead if there were no Russians - on top of Russian effect Mari has massive influence from both Tatars and Chuvashes still. For Estonians or Latvians, even with large Russian minorities, it is a political decision because Russian speakers are not dominant there - if they are going to lose their language it would not be too surprising if they within some centuries all become English speakers. The situation of Belarusian language looks more grim, and in that case the assimilating language will most likely be Russian (http://m.dw.com/uk/%D0%B1%D1%96%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%8C%D 0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0-%D0%B2-%D0%B1%D1%96%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%96-%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B6%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B8%D 0%B9-%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%83%D1%81-%D1%87%D0%B8-%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D1%96%D 1%8F/a-19063646?maca=ukr-VGUS-Link-YedynkaUpMobileManual-dwukr).



It's not about the numbers of Russians living in Estonia and Latvia as such. It's about eagerness of people wanting to keep Slavic (Russian) identity in Estonia and Lativa. Russians of Latvia and Estonia are not exactly Russians by descent. They are Ukrainians, Belarusians, Armenians, Georgians, Jews, Germans, Lithuanians, half Latvians, half Estonians, who'd rather keep 'Russian' (Slavic) identity.

Why people of mixed ancestry of Latvia and Estonia would keep Russian identity is another story. Probably because of a large neighbouring nation that is circularly Russian.

You are trying to rub some salt in our wounds referencing the fact that Belarusians are Russian speakers. We're Russian speakers. Because we are a smallest east Slavic nation , who have been subjected to Russian cultural assimilation the most in the last 200 years. Think of Finns who are 15 times larger than Karelains desperately trying to culturally assimilate Karelians. That's what happened to Belarusians. It also happened to Ukrainians. But Ukrainians is 5 times larger than Belarusians, so the kept their language and culture better.

Yes, Belkarusians peak Russian natively. But we don't associate ourselves with the Russians. In fact, Ukrainians and Russians are culturally and linguistically more similarly. Mentality of Russians and Ukrainians are also more similar. This is confirmed by Russians and Ukrainians who visited Belarus, Russia and Ukraine.

Irish and English speak the same language yet both nations are different to each other. That's how we see Belarus and Russia.

If you could read in Russian I would have pointed you to differences between Belarusians, Ukrainians and Russians. elarusians are more similar to Poles and Lithuanias. Although, we don't like to acknowledge our similarities to Poles and Lithuanians.

Shaikorth
04-02-2016, 08:56 AM
It's not about the numbers of Russians living in Estonia and Latvia as such. It's about eagerness of people wanting to keep Slavic (Russian) identity in Estonia and Lativa. Russians of Latvia and Estonia are not exactly Russians by descent. They are Ukrainians, Belarusians, Armenians, Georgians, Jews, Germans, Lithuanians, half Latvians, half Estonians, who'd rather keep 'Russian' (Slavic) identity.

Why people of mixed ancestry of Latvia and Estonia would keep Russian identity is another story. Probably because of a large neighbouring nation that is circularly Russian.


The Russian speaking minorities in Estonia and Latvia likely are for the most part ethnic Russians from Russia. There are others in that group too, but I haven't seen any indication that they are the majority.



You are trying to rub some salt in our wounds referencing the fact that Belarusians are Russian speakers. We're Russian speakers. Because we are a smallest east Slavic nation , who have been subjected to Russian cultural assimilation the most in the last 200 years. Think of Finns who are 15 times larger than Karelains desperately trying to culturally assimilate Karelians. That's what happened to Belarusians. It also happened to Ukrainians. But Ukrainians is 5 times larger than Belarusians, so the kept their language and culture better.

Yes, Belkarusians peak Russian natively. But we don't associate ourselves with the Russians. In fact, Ukrainians and Russians are culturally and linguistically more similarly. Mentality of Russians and Ukrainians are also more similar. This is confirmed by Russians and Ukrainians who visited Belarus, Russia and Ukraine.

Irish and English speak the same language yet both nations are different to each other. That's how we see Belarus and Russia.

If you could read in Russian I would have pointed you to differences between Belarusians, Ukrainians and Russians. elarusians are more similar to Poles and Lithuanias. Although, we don't like to acknowledge our similarities to Poles and Lithuanians.

I'm not trying to piss you off man. The difference in the situations of Latvians and Estonians vs Belarusians is that while all of them have states, Latvians and Estonians are more actively working to preserve and promote the native language of the ethnic majority - can't be sure why, perhaps Lukashenko fears it would worsen relations with Russia. To a smaller degree this goes with Ukraine. Peoples like Saamis or Karelians do not have a state and lack the means to resist assimilation by larger ethnicities in a similar way Latvians and Estonians do and Belarusians could have. There are also cultural similarities, like religion (Orthodoxy under the Patriarchate of Moscow vs Roman Catholicism, protestantism or Orthodoxy under Patriarchate of Constantinople of Latvians and Estonians etc.)

Volat
04-02-2016, 09:22 AM
The Russian speaking minorities in Estonia and Latvia likely are for the most part ethnic Russians from Russia. There are others in that group too, but I haven't seen any indication that they are the majority.


The majority of non Lativans and Estonians are ethnic Russians. But ethnic Russian are 65% of Russian speaking populatins . 35% of people are Ukrainians, Caucasians, Belarusians, half Estonians, half Latvians, and others.





I'm not trying to piss you off man. The difference in the situations of Latvians and Estonians vs Belarusians is that while all of them have states, Latvians and Estonians are more actively working to preserve and promote the native language of the ethnic majority - can't be sure why, perhaps Lukashenko fears it would worsen relations with Russia. To a smaller degree this goes with Ukraine. Peoples like Saamis or Karelians do not have a state and lack the means to resist assimilation by larger ethnicities in a similar way Latvians and Estonians do and Belarusians could have. There are also cultural similarities, like religion (Orthodoxy under the Patriarchate of Moscow vs Roman Catholicism, protestantism or Orthodoxy under Patriarchate of Constantinople of Latvians and Estonians etc.)




It's going to take a lot more to piss me off on forum discussians. :)


Belarus is a younger state than Finland. Yonger than Lithuania and Latvia. Lukashenko is an Ukrainian by descent. He loves Ukraine and he is charasmatic appealing to many common folks. He sincerly wanted to have political alliance with Russia in late 90s believing he would rule the union between Belarus and Russia. Russians weren't to give up political power to an outsider. If there was a general election, Lukashenko would have won in Russia in Belarus easily. Common Russian folks liked him more than Belarusians. Later, Lukashenko realised that Russia did not seek an equal partner. Russia wanted a subordinate state. It's a little too late, because Belarusian economy depends on the Russian market. Nearly 50% of Belarusian export is destined to the Russian market.

Kristiina
04-02-2016, 09:50 AM
@Volat ”The IBD analysis are most useful for recent ancestry. Let's say 750 years.”
Then that similarity between Komis and Vepsans in that figure could indeed represent the connections between Komi and Novgorod because the time frame is just c. 750 years ago.

@Volat “I never understood why some Finns are trying to distance themselves from people of Volga-Ural region”
IMO, Uralic=Volga-Kama=genetic origin is too simplistic. I really do not believe that my genes can be reduced to a population movement from Volga Kama to Finland during the Iron Age. In spite of this, I can tell to everybody here that I once met a young Udmurt woman and I really happened to look more like her than a standard Swede or Balt or Estonian or even a standard Finn.

Kristiina
04-02-2016, 10:01 AM
Here you have a photo of me and my cousin. :-) Who knows, maybe there is something typically Volga-Uralic in us.
8562

Volat
04-02-2016, 10:18 AM
@Volat ”The IBD analysis are most useful for recent ancestry. Let's say 750 years.”
Then that similarity between Komis and Vepsans in that figure could indeed represent the connections between Komi and Novgorod because the time frame is just c. 750 years ago.


I am a northern Belarusian by descent. My most closest genetic relative is a Russian from Pskov region (north-western Russia) which is next to Latvia, Estonia and Novgorod region. My genetic relatives are western Russians, Lithuanians, Lativians and Estonians, north-eastern Ukrainians. I also have Finns among my genetic cousins, despite I am an eastern Slav knowing my ancestry to early 19th century.




IMO, Uralic=Volga-Kama=genetic origin is too simplistic. I really do not believe that my genes can be reduced to a population movement from Volga Kama to Finland during the Iron Age. In spite of this, I can tell to everybody here that I once met a young Udmurt woman and I really happened to look more like her than a standard Swede or Balt or Estonian or even a standard Finn.

Methods used in comparing genetic similarities between populations have some limitations. But Karelians, some Komi, some Udmurts share common ancestry with eastern Finns. We know this from linguistic, ethnographic, geographic and genetic similarities. Northern Russians who have Karelians or some Komi ancestry have physical appearance similar to that of Finns. In my eyes, northern Russians look as eastern Finns. Тhe girl look very Finno-Slavic to me. She's from Vologda (northern Russia)


http://www.fresher.ru/images4/vymirayushhie-russkie-derevni/24.jpg

Volat
04-02-2016, 10:19 AM
Another guy from northern Russia. Doesn't he look as a regular Finn?


http://www.fresher.ru/images4/vymirayushhie-russkie-derevni/32.jpg

Shaikorth
04-02-2016, 10:33 AM
Genetically Karelians and certainly East Finns are closer to Estonians than Vologda/Kargopol though. Karelians do not have genetic connections with Udmurts but do have them with Saamis.

Physical anthropology is less certain than genetics, but when dabbling with that it would do to use representative sample sizes.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5379/496/1600/europe.0.jpg

Also can mods move non-R1a related discussion of the past few pages into Cultural Anthropology section?

Volat
04-02-2016, 10:41 AM
Genetically Karelians and certainly East Finns are closer to Estonians than Vologda/Kargopol though.

I have no agenda.I don't think Estonians are genetically more similar to Finns than northern Russians (Russians who have Karelians and Veps ancestry). Modern Estonians are indistinguishable from Balts and some north-eastern Slavs in genome-wide comarison. Estonians also have R1a to 35%. The only connection between Finns and Estonians is the language.

Shaikorth
04-02-2016, 10:54 AM
I have no agenda.I don't think Estonians are genetically more similar to Finns than northern Russians (Russians who have Karelians and Veps ancestry). Modern Estonians are indistinguishable from Balts and some north-eastern Slavs in genome-wide comarison. Estonians also have R1a to 35%. The only connection between Finns and Estonians is the language.

But that is not true. D-stats are genomewide tests and show very clearly that Estonians are closer to Karelians and East Finns than Northern Russians from places like Kargopol.
Estonia East_Finland Karelia Mbuti -0.0031 Z -3.646
Ru_Tver East_Finland Karelia Mbuti -0.0080 Z -6.382
Kargopol East_Finland Karelia Mbuti -0.0095 Z -9.287
Komi East_Finland Karelia Mbuti -0.0165 Z -18.083

It is also relatively easy to genetically separate Estonians from Belarusians, Lithuanians or Estonian Poles. If you look at David's PCA I previously linked, you'll see that.

The Karelian language came from Estonia or the Pskov region which is the Baltic Finnic separation point. Genetic connection with Estonians supports this. On top they have ancestry from Saami and possible other pre-Karelian inhabitants of Karelia.

Tomenable
04-02-2016, 11:03 AM
Gravetto-Danubian,


then we should just push the origins of IE to Palaeolithic Russia.

It's unlikely that language remained "fossilized" and unchanged for so long. That Upper Paleolithic group which crossed Beringia and gave rise to Native Americans probably spoke one language, but they did not continue to speak the same language all the way until Columbus.


What is important is that they might have had differing migratory trajectories. Ie arrived to Motala via different ways, means and times

Not sure why do you think so, considering that autosomally they were identical.

Couldn't they arrive to Motala at the same time as members of the same tribe?

Volat
04-02-2016, 11:10 AM
It is also relatively easy to genetically separate Estonians from Belarusians, Lithuanians or Estonian Poles. If you look at David's PCA I previously linked, you'll see that.

The Karelian language came from Estonia or the Pskov region which is the Baltic Finnic separation point. Genetic connection with Estonians supports this. On top they have ancestry from Saami and possible other pre-Karelian inhabitants of Karelia.


I like what David (aka Generalissimo on this forum) is doing. We have some disputes on the forum for reaosons I won't explain. But in 8 out of 10 analyses David's charts are garbage. Sorry, Generalissimo. I know about stats more than him and I know all leading biostatisticians from David's country includding his home city. Hello to Annete Dobson from University of Queensland.

Every Estonian I met comparing to genome-wide (23andme) , single-parental marker and IBD comparisons, Estonians were most similar to north-east Europeans.

There was a thesis from an Estonian guy Tonu Esku who was stating explicitely that Estonians are genetically most similar to Latvian and north-western Russians.

Shaikorth
04-02-2016, 11:17 AM
I like what David (aka Generalissimo on this forum) is doing. We have some disputes on the forum for reaosons I won't explain. But in 8 out of 10 analyses David's charts are garbage. Sorry, Generalissimo. I know about stats more than him and I know all leading biostatisticians from David's country includding his home city. Hello to Annete Dobson from University of Queensland.

Every Estonian I met comparing to genome-wide (23andme) , single-parental marker and IBD comparisons, Estonians were most similar to north-east Europeans.

There was a thesis from an Estonian guy Tonu Esku who was stating explicitely that Estonians are genetically most similar to Latvian and north-western Russians.

That isn't a contradiction - even though Estonians are closer to Latvians than Karelians, Karelians are closer to Estonians than to North Russians. D-stats will show this too.

Volat
04-02-2016, 11:28 AM
That isn't a contradiction - even though Estonians are closer to Latvians than Karelians, Karelians are closer to Estonians than to North Russians. D-stats will show this too.

I don't think so. I think Karelians are more similar to northern Russians (dependomg which part of northern Russia) than Estonians. We can use differnt type of statistics to show populations' similarities. Estonians have loads of R1a and east European ancestry (Russians, Belarusians, Poles, Ukraians) in 23andme analysis. Even Komi and north Russians are not as similar to east European group as Estonians.

Shaikorth
04-02-2016, 11:41 AM
I don't think so. I think Karelians are more similar to northern Russians (dependomg which part of northern Russia) than Estonians. We can use differnt type of statistics to show populations' similarities. Estonians have loads of R1a and east European ancestry (Russians, Belarusians, Poles, Ukraians) in 23andme analysis. Even Komi and north Russians are not as similar to east European group as Estonians.

Komi, Balts, North Russians, Karelians and Estonians have roughly similar amounts of R1a, Ukrainians, Poles etc. have much more. These are uniparental markers whose frequencies are easily changed by founder effects in small populations and don't have much to do with genomewide ancestry.

23andMe's ancestry composition is based on haplotypes and lacks a Komi or Volga-Uralic reference so it doesn't properly reflect their affinities, while D-stats are a formal test of genomewide similarity used in recent big papers on population genetics. IBS or D-stat test on 23andMe's raw data would show Karelians closer to Estonians than to North Russians or Komis just like the academic data from Estonian Biocentre, while the ancestry composition fails to show this.

Volat
04-02-2016, 11:52 AM
Komi, Balts, North Russians, Karelians and Estonians have roughly similar amounts of R1a, Ukrainians, Poles etc. have much more. These are uniparental markers whose frequencies are easily changed by founder effects in small populations and don't have much to do with genomewide ancestry.


Lithuanians have R1a ~45%. Estonians - 35%. Karelians 15-25%. Poles, Ukrainians - over 50%. Uniparental markers don't have much to do genome-wide ancestry and they are subject to founder and bottle-neck effects. But we still use y-chromsome frequencies in determining populations ancestries.



23andMe's ancestry composition is based on haplotypes and lacks a Komi or Volga-Uralic reference so it doesn't properly reflect their affinities, while D-stats are a formal test of genomewide similarity used in recent big papers on population genetics. IBS or D-stat test on 23andMe's raw data would show Karelians closer to Estonians than to North Russians or Komis just like the academic data from Estonian Biocentre, while the ancestry composition fails to show this.

What are recent significant papers in which D-statistics are used? Unless you show me a compreohensive study about Estonians being more similar to Karelians than to north-eastern Russian I will be sceptical. I will be referring to Tonu Escku's thesis on Estonians ancestry similar to Latvians and norht-western Russians, even if it's a bit dated now.

Shaikorth
04-02-2016, 12:04 PM
Lithuanians have R1a ~45%. Estonians - 35%. Karelians 15-25%. Poles, Ukrainians - over 50%. Uniparental markers don't have much to do genome-wide ancestry and they are subject to founder and bottle-neck effects. But we still use y-chromsome frequencies in determining populations ancestries.



What are recent significant papers in which D-statistics are used? Unless you show me a compreohensive study about Estonians being more similar to Karelians than to north-eastern Russian I will be sceptical. I will be referring to Tonu Escku's thesis on Estonians ancestry similar to Latvians and norht-western Russians, even if it's a bit dated now.

Estonians, Karelians and Vepsians as well as Balts all have around 30-40% R1a.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/extref/ejhg201450x5.xls (Table S4)

D-statistics have been used in Reich lab's big papers about ancient DNA (Lazaridis et al, Haak et al), also Skoglund et al. paper about ancient DNA, Jeong et al's "Deep History of East Asian Populations Revealed Through Genetic Analysis of the Ainu" and so on. There hasn't been a recent study about the relations of Eastern Europeans using it but the data (both the program and the genetic data) is public and they would show the same thing genome bloggers already have.

Kristiina
04-02-2016, 02:22 PM
This is again off-topic but I could not resist. I went to see my own 23andme-results and compared it to the results posted above. I see that in 23andme analysis I lack all East Asian but, instead, I have 0.1% of Middle Eastern & North African. Could it be linked to my weird mtDNA I5a? Do you know how typical it is for Balts and Southern Baltic rim people and Novgorod Russians to have Middle Eastern & North African?

Shaikorth
04-02-2016, 03:09 PM
This is again off-topic but I could not resist. I went to see my own 23andme-results and compared it to the results posted above. I see that in 23andme analysis I lack all East Asian but, instead, I have 0.1% of Middle Eastern & North African. Could it be linked to my weird mtDNA I5a? Do you know how typical it is for Balts and Southern Baltic rim people and Novgorod Russians to have Middle Eastern & North African?

It is rare. You might find a genealogical connection with your segment or it could be noise, difficult to say.

Volat
04-02-2016, 03:41 PM
0.1% is likely to be noise. West Finns don't have as much East Asian ancestry.

Kristiina
04-02-2016, 04:55 PM
This sequence that is defined Middle Eastern & North African is in the other pair of chromosome 12. So I should find a 23andme relative who also has Middle Eastern & North African in chromosome 12. It will probably never happen that I would find such a person.

In chromosome view, the other pair of chromosome 17 is entirely Eastern European and not Finnish. My three-greats grandmother is said to have come from Russia. Could the other chromosome 17 therefore be a confirmation of this?

Volat
04-02-2016, 05:08 PM
This sequence that is defined Middle Eastern & North African is in the other pair of chromosome 12. So I should find a 23andme relative who also has Middle Eastern & North African in chromosome 12. It will probably never happen that I would find such a person.

In chromosome view, the other pair of chromosome 17 is entirely Eastern European and not Finnish. My three-greats grandmother is said to have come from Russia. Could the other chromosome 17 therefore be a confirmation of this?


Russians and Russians of Kargopol (Russians who are known to have some Karelian or Veps ancestry. I am not sure which one) are part of general east European population. Therefore some Finns will have east European ancestry in 23andme even if they don't have Russian ancestry. In your case east European ancestry may very well be due to Russian (Slavic) ancestry. The question is from which part of Russia your great grandmothers came from? From Karelia?

Gravetto-Danubian
04-03-2016, 12:38 AM
R-M269 and R-M417 were in the one community that gave rise to PIE around 3500 BC.

Yep. And that "community" was the C-T culture, eastern Epi-Lengyel, GAC, and the like

Generalissimo
04-03-2016, 01:17 AM
Yep. And that "community" was the C-T culture, eastern Epi-Lengyel, GAC, and the like

Nope.

Gravetto-Danubian
04-03-2016, 01:44 AM
Nope.

You're scared
:behindsofa:

Krefter
04-03-2016, 08:05 AM
Yep. And that "community" was the C-T culture, eastern Epi-Lengyel, GAC, and the like

Unless Eastern Lengyal was genetically completely differnt from Lengyal DNA we have from Central Europe, that's impossible. All those cultures were probably EEFs dominated by G2a and H2. You're not being scientific by arguing for something that is the complete opposite of what the evidence strongly suggests. We're not just discussing geography. The ancestor of R1b-L151 and R1a-M417 probably lived somewhere in Ukraine or further east, but that doesn;'t mean any human beings that lived in that region before 3000 BC MUST be the source of L151 and M417. We're specifically looking for people genetically like Yamnaya, and those cultures you mention don't fit the bill.

BTW, I'm not referring to PIE at all. I'm only referring to genes.

Gravetto-Danubian
04-03-2016, 09:14 AM
Unless Eastern Lengyal was genetically completely differnt from Lengyal DNA we have from Central Europe, that's impossible. All those cultures were probably EEFs dominated by G2a and H2. You're not being scientific by arguing for something that is the complete opposite of what the evidence strongly suggests. We're not just discussing geography. The ancestor of R1b-L151 and R1a-M417 probably lived somewhere in Ukraine or further east, but that doesn;'t mean any human beings that lived in that region before 3000 BC MUST be the source of L151 and M417. We're specifically looking for people genetically like Yamnaya, and those cultures you mention don't fit the bill.

BTW, I'm not referring to PIE at all. I'm only referring to genes.

Krefter

Consider these 3 questions / comments

1) Was there any haplogroup I in middle Neolithic specimens from west & west-central Europe (even if only ~ 20%), or was it all haplogroup G2 & H2 ?

2) Can you tell me the distance from, say, Esperstedt to Kalmykia (i.e. the black hole of data which currently exists for genome-wide data reference-points in EE).

3) You talk about “Science”. But what – if anything- have you thought about the demographic specifics in Eneolithic eastern Europe? (eg can you say anything about the origins of Neolithic in Ukraine or Moldavia, or relative population densities during the Neolithic, from -say- Poland to southern Russia at c. 3500 BC).

(Although this is beyond scope of this thread)

Basta
07-24-2017, 12:20 PM
I don't understand the rest of your question, but no, because no other studies have been done on Croats since the Underhill one (which first separated an M458).
But the ftDNA data hasn't reproduced the high M458 they got. So I wonder if the Underhill study simply sample a village of related men, who just happened to be M458.
In fact, in the R1a project, it is now showing that it is Bulgarians who have the higher M458 frequencies of South Slavs.
Clearly, we're seeing the effects of sampling bias, and need many more numbers.

My humble input as an amateur: you must treat Croatia differently that other countries because

a) in the early days it was divided into Dalmatian Croatia (Croatia proper) and Slavonia (Slovinje)
- some say there is difference between them, maybe they came from different homelands

b) from the late medieval times Croatia suffered gigantic migrations caused by Turkish invasions. Some of the effects:
- some Dalmatians were settled in Istria
- some mainland people escaped to the islands of middle Dalmatia
- many migrated from Herzegovina and Rama area (southern Bosnia) to Dalmatia
- many migrated from Bosnia to Slavonia (Catholics)
- many migrated from Slavonia, Banija, Lika to Bosnia (islamized population)
- Vlachs/Raczs/Serbs moved into northern Dalmatia, Lika, Banija areas

Basta
07-24-2017, 12:43 PM
The very linguistic link itself is tenuous at best. That is, who is to say the personal name seen in the Bosoprus - Horouathon - even has anything to do with Croat (attested some 700 years later). It just "looks similar"
I'm strongly against your suggestion there was no Croatia (or even more probably more than one) in the Central Europe, but I agree with you on this. People "see" Croatian name everywhere.
This time, just one note regarding DAI which says that Croat name means "those who have many land". "Hora" or "horion" or something like that in Greek means "land", so the poor emperor went with analogy H(o)rvat = hora/horion.

Volat
07-24-2017, 01:58 PM
This time, just one note regarding DAI which says that Croat name means "those who have many land". "Hora" or "horion" or something like that in Greek means "land", so the poor emperor went with analogy H(o)rvat = hora/horion.

A bit of creative linguistics and one can derive Hrvati/Horvati/Harvati from Sarmati . In Slavic chronicles the ethnonym Hrvat is also known as Horvat and Harvat (old Czech and old Polish). So Sarmat > Harvat. In fact harvati and sarmati are from Iranic adjective *sarma(n)t / *harva(n)t - full of women as per Ameleev I.A. Serbs, Croats (2006).

Gravetto-Danubian
07-31-2017, 01:00 PM
My humble input as an amateur: you must treat Croatia differently that other countries because

a) in the early days it was divided into Dalmatian Croatia (Croatia proper) and Slavonia (Slovinje)
- some say there is difference between them, maybe they came from different homelands

b) from the late medieval times Croatia suffered gigantic migrations caused by Turkish invasions. Some of the effects:
- some Dalmatians were settled in Istria
- some mainland people escaped to the islands of middle Dalmatia
- many migrated from Herzegovina and Rama area (southern Bosnia) to Dalmatia
- many migrated from Bosnia to Slavonia (Catholics)
- many migrated from Slavonia, Banija, Lika to Bosnia (islamized population)
- Vlachs/Raczs/Serbs moved into northern Dalmatia, Lika, Banija areas


All true, but since the original post, a new study (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876/abstract) from Croatia came out, confirming that the high M458 did not hold true with further sampling around the regions of Croatia, but instead most Croat R1a (like the rest of the Balkans) fell under 'M558'.


I'm strongly against your suggestion there was no Croatia (or even more probably more than one) in the Central Europe, but I agree with you on this. People "see" Croatian name everywhere.
This time, just one note regarding DAI which says that Croat name means "those who have many land". "Hora" or "horion" or something like that in Greek means "land", so the poor emperor went with analogy H(o)rvat = hora/horion.



I did not say there 'was no Croatia in central Europe"; as there obviously were mentions in Poland, Czech, Ukraine, ..

Rather, I (rightly) pointed out that the earliest historical appearance of the term 'Croat' is from Dalmatia (Trpimir's inscription IIRC).
What remains to be clarified clearly is the exact relationship of these groups - shared families, invented traditions, or actual stage -points for the progressive migration ?

Tomenable
05-04-2018, 08:41 PM
Some samples of R1a with ancestry from East Prussia:

1. Subclades common among East Balts:

Origin of surname kit number R1a subclade:

German kit 329192 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y16755>YP4296
German kit 221446 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350
German kit 162556 - Z92>Y4459>YP5520
Polonized German kit N2278 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP1700
German (?)* kit 71994 - CTS1211>YP1034>YP4258
German kit 85285 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L366>Y P5223
German kit 175710 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>Y2915
Unknown kit E10339 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951>Y17619
Unknown kit N43077 - Z92+
Polish kit 426239 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>YP968>YP969>YP4335
Polish kit 157553 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350
Polish kit 161829 - S24902>YP561>YP4094>YP4078
Polish kit E4688 - Z92+

*Pallaschke, sounds German but could be Germanized of Slavic origin.

2. Subclades common among Kashubians:

Origin of surname kit number R1a subclade:

German kit 165792 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>Y P243>YP389>YP4669
German kit N7393 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>Y P243
Polish kit E9666 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>Y P243>YP269>Y6956>L670

3. Subclades common among East Slavs:

Surname kit number R1a subclade:

Czeranna kit 316853 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569>YP682
Skubinna* kit 415060 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569>YP1256>YP4846
Glass kit 175710 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>Y2915

*Apparently a Lithuanian surname, although they came from Russia?:


there was some interest in my surname, Skubinna. My FTDNA Kit is #415060/R1a-YP569.

Testing indicates the family goes back to the Ryazan Oblast of Russia in the 1500s. In 1600, they were living in Latvia. At some point after that year, they were Lithuanians living in Lithuania Minor which when it became part of Germany was known as East Prussia. According to the language experts at the Library of Congress, the name Skubina/Skubinna is Lithuanian and means "to be in a hurry" or "to be quick." My direct ancestor was Petras/Peter Skubinna. In 1720 he was paying land taxes at Loyen (near Dubeningken) in Kreis/County Goldap, East Prussia. His sons all had Lithuanian Christian names until the 1730s. if any one would like more information on my family's heritage or an article on the history of Lithuania Minor feel free to email me at mskubinna at yahoo.

As far as I can tell from the church records going back to the 1730, a few of my Skubinna relatives were still using Lithuanian names as late as the 1840s. None after that date. My paternal Great-Grandfather came to the U.S.A. in 1885. He only spoke German, but because he originally engaged in timbering in Michigan he had Swedish employees and learned that language. In 1892, he move to North Dakota and became a prosperous rancher. He hired fellow Germans and a number of Russian men and women to work for him raising wheat. So he also learned enough Russian to be able to work with them.

4. Other samples of R1a from East Prussia:

Origin of surname kit number R1a subclade:

Polish kit N1840 - M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y4135>Y14244
Jewish? (Rosenbaum) kit B14462 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921>Y2914>Y20359
German kit 145992 - M458+
Germanized Slavic kit 31553 - M458>PF7521>L260+
Polish kit N5198 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029+
German kit 137403 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>YP515
Germanized Slavic kit 200664 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>YP315>YP314
Polish kit N18451 - CTS1211>YP343>YP340
German kit 153224 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613
German kit 275076 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP613
Germanized Slavic kit 330940 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448
Polish kit E4464 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448>FGC19273
Polish kit 2546 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>Y12463 >YP1428*
Polish kit 131361 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3226>Y 3219>YP1144>PH3519-B2

Low resolution of Y-SNPs:

Origin of surname kit number R1a subclade:

German kit E6115 - M512+
Polish kit E10941 - M198+
German kit E2656 - M198+
German kit N2864 - M417+
German kit 145455 - M417+

lukaszM
05-04-2018, 09:01 PM
I can add full East-Prussian from Goldap area with rather surprising G2a (G-CTS4803. I can't provide surname but it is German. Autosomally very East-Prussian also.

Tomenable
05-04-2018, 09:13 PM
I can add full East-Prussian from Goldap area with rather surprising G2a (G-CTS4803. I can't provide surname but it is German.

But this thread is only about R1a. This G2a from Goldap area is not listed in FTDNA G2a Haplogroup Project?