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View Full Version : Norman/French/Crusader genes in Lebanese Muslims?



Sikeliot
03-09-2016, 05:20 AM
http://www.paradoxplace.com/Perspectives/Maps/Images/Norman%20Conquests%20by%201100s%20R.jpg

Using the Eurogenes K15 averages... when compared to the Christians, you see higher NW and NE European affinities in Lebanese Muslims and Druze and it can only be attributed to the Crusades, Normans, and other West Europeans.

"North Sea" peaks in Danes, Brits, Irish, Dutch, Germans, Scandinavians.
"Atlantic" peaks in French Basques.
"Baltic" peaks in Lithuania, but is present in Central European Germanic people also.
"East Euro" is present throughout Europe and West Asia, but highest in Russia.

From these, if you take the difference between Muslims/Druze and Christians, Lebanese Muslims should be around 4% Crusader and Druze around 3%. Adding some of the NE Euro in there, the difference is even higher. It is likely 5% of Lebanese Muslims' genes are of NW European, probably Norman or French origin.


Lebanese Muslims:

2.43% North Sea
5.62% Atlantic
2.09% Baltic
1.22% East Euro

TOTAL NW EURO: 8.05%
TOTAL NE EURO: 3.31%

Lebanese Christians:

1.49% North Sea
2.78% Atlantic
1.14% Baltic
0.71% East Euro

TOTAL NW EURO: 4.27%
TOTAL NE EURO: 1.85%

Lebanese Druze:

3.47% North Sea
3.98% Atlantic
1.43% Baltic
1.52% East Euro

TOTAL NW EURO: 7.45%
TOTAL NE EURO: 2.95%

ffoucart
03-09-2016, 06:53 AM
Perhaps, or perhaps not.

Remember that slavery were common in the Arabo-Muslim world, even recently (officially abolished only in 1963 in Arabia Saudia, in the 1980's in Mauritania), with Slaves from Russia (captured by Tatars, that's also why many Eastern Europeans hates Tatars and Turks).

It could also be a founder effect (for Druzes).

As it's only at low levels, it's not easy to understand exactly what happened.

Sikeliot
03-09-2016, 07:29 AM
As it's only at low levels, it's not easy to understand exactly what happened.

The elevated Atlantic suggests it to me.

Helgenes50
03-09-2016, 07:59 AM
The elevated Atlantic suggests it to me.

North sea, Baltic and East Euro are higher in the Muslim samples. That's probably due to the slavery
Look at the Bedouin mtDNA results, they are very speaking ( in French)

http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/index.php?post/2016/02/01/Analyse-g%C3%A9n%C3%A9tique-de-la-population-du-Qatar

Atlantic is a mix of WHG and Near Eastern, difficult to know where it comes from !
From a common Neolithic origin or from Atantic ?

Normans are certainly more present in Sicily via some paternal lines.

Shaikorth
03-09-2016, 08:34 AM
Slaves from the Mediterranean and even North African admixture (Mozabites have over 10%) can elevate K15 Atlantic.

This can't be solved with ADMIXTURE. K15 Armenians have North Sea as their highest "Euro" component and they certainly were not crusader-admixed. IBD-testing or something comparable is needed.

vettor
03-09-2016, 09:09 AM
http://www.paradoxplace.com/Perspectives/Maps/Images/Norman%20Conquests%20by%201100s%20R.jpg

Using the Eurogenes K15 averages... when compared to the Christians, you see higher NW and NE European affinities in Lebanese Muslims and Druze and it can only be attributed to the Crusades, Normans, and other West Europeans.

"North Sea" peaks in Danes, Brits, Irish, Dutch, Germans, Scandinavians.
"Atlantic" peaks in French Basques.
"Baltic" peaks in Lithuania, but is present in Central European Germanic people also.
"East Euro" is present throughout Europe and West Asia, but highest in Russia.

From these, if you take the difference between Muslims/Druze and Christians, Lebanese Muslims should be around 4% Crusader and Druze around 3%. Adding some of the NE Euro in there, the difference is even higher. It is likely 5% of Lebanese Muslims' genes are of NW European, probably Norman or French origin.


Lebanese Muslims:

2.43% North Sea
5.62% Atlantic
2.09% Baltic
1.22% East Euro

TOTAL NW EURO: 8.05%
TOTAL NE EURO: 3.31%

Lebanese Christians:

1.49% North Sea
2.78% Atlantic
1.14% Baltic
0.71% East Euro

TOTAL NW EURO: 4.27%
TOTAL NE EURO: 1.85%

Lebanese Druze:

3.47% North Sea
3.98% Atlantic
1.43% Baltic
1.52% East Euro

TOTAL NW EURO: 7.45%
TOTAL NE EURO: 2.95%

The normans where also in Albania for a long time, the albanians allied with the normans fighting against the venetians and byzantines

A few years after the First Crusade, in 1107, the Normans under the command of Bohemond, Robert's son, landed in Valona and besieged Dyrrachium using the most sophisticated military equipment of the time, but to no avail. Meanwhile, they occupied Petrela, the citadel of Mili at the banks of the river Deabolis, Gllavenica (Ballsh), Kanina and Jericho. This time, the Albanians sided with the Normans, dissatisfied by the heavy taxes the Byzantines had imposed upon them. With their help, the Normans secured the Arbanon passes and opened their way to Dibra. The lack of supplies, disease and Byzantine resistance forced Bohemond to retreat from his campaign and sign a peace treaty with the Byzantines in the city of Deabolis.

The further decline of Byzantine state-of-affairs paved the road to a third attack in 1185, when a large Norman army invaded Dyrrachium, owing to the betrayal of high Byzantine officials. Some time later, Dyrrachium—one of the most important naval bases of the Adriatic—fell again to Byzantine hands.

There would be some impregnation of albanians by Normans after 80 odd years

Sikeliot
03-09-2016, 03:10 PM
Normans are certainly more present in Sicily via some paternal lines.

There is Western European R1b in Lebanon also. It is easier to quantify West Euro admixture in Lebanon than in Sicily because all Europeans have those components to begin with and it is uncertain when it arrived. In Lebanon, it's an anomaly relative to the region from which they live. Sicilians still plot more outlying than nearly anyone else in Europe despite having a few percentages of Western European DNA.

Helgenes50
03-09-2016, 03:40 PM
There is Western European R1b in Lebanon also. It is easier to quantify West Euro admixture in Lebanon than in Sicily because all Europeans have those components to begin with and it is uncertain when it arrived. In Lebanon, it's an anomaly relative to the region from which they live. Sicilians still plot more outlying than nearly anyone else in Europe despite having a few percentages of Western European DNA.

For the Norman presence in Sicily, I was thinking of the I1 Haplogroup.
This one seems important, at least from what we can see on Eupedia.

But I am not sure that all the soldiers in the Norman armies were of this origin.
From what I know the chiefs were from Coutances in Lower Normandy
To be exact from Hauteville la guichard

https://www.google.fr/maps/place/Hauteville-la-Guichard/@49.1255189,-1.338904,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x480b8eb06ae88309:0x771cb 6057fa5837e

Sikeliot
03-09-2016, 03:45 PM
For the Norman presence in Sicily, I was thinking of the I1 Haplogroup.
This one seems important, at least from what we can see on Eupedia.

But I am not sure that all the soldiers in the Norman armies were of this origin.
From what I know the chiefs were from Coutances in Lower Normandy
To be exact from Hauteville la guichard

https://www.google.fr/maps/place/Hauteville-la-Guichard/@49.1255189,-1.338904,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x480b8eb06ae88309:0x771cb 6057fa5837e


I1 in Sicily is more likely to be Gothic (Ostrogoth) rather than Norman, unless it is common in northern France also. Either way the autosomal impact on northwest Sicily is very small.

I do see evidence of it in how Lebanese appear on Oracles though... Europeans score Lebanese Muslim well before Christian on their oracles.

Helgenes50
03-09-2016, 03:55 PM
I1 in Sicily is more likely to be Gothic (Ostrogoth) rather than Norman, unless it is common in northern France also. Either way the autosomal impact on northwest Sicily is very small.

I do see evidence of it in how Lebanese appear on Oracles though... Europeans score Lebanese Muslim well before Christian on their oracles.

Do you know the subclades ?

Sikeliot
03-09-2016, 06:04 PM
Do you know the subclades ?

I do not. But it doesn't make sense for us to measure Norman input with I1, when we should be measuring it with specific subclades of R1b.

I1 is more likely to be Gothic.

Theconqueror
03-10-2016, 02:17 AM
I am descendant of Robert Guiscard. Norman family Projects (Sinclair and many others) report a mix of R1B, I, some R1a.



For the Norman presence in Sicily, I was thinking of the I1 Haplogroup.
This one seems important, at least from what we can see on Eupedia.

But I am not sure that all the soldiers in the Norman armies were of this origin.
From what I know the chiefs were from Coutances in Lower Normandy
To be exact from Hauteville la guichard

https://www.google.fr/maps/place/Hauteville-la-Guichard/@49.1255189,-1.338904,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x480b8eb06ae88309:0x771cb 6057fa5837e