M222 Madden - Understanding positive SNP matches

[gmad]

Hi, I've just received my results back from DNA Worldwide, and they've put me in the M222 haplogroup. They've sent me a list of my positive SNP matches (below), which I'm struggling to make sense of. If anyone can help with extracting the useful information from this, it would be a big help. I'm putting it here too as there doesn't seem to be much information regarding the Madden surname and M222, so hopefully it will be useful. I'm interested in seeing how it fits in with the Ui Maine and Síol Anmchadha SNPs. Earliest know ancestor is Alexander Madden, born around 1832 near Magherafelt.
Thanks
Graeme

positiveYdnaSnps:["A531","A91","BY1142","BY1357","BY136_FGC19909_Z18229","BY1551","BY1734","BY20","BY2510","BY65_Z18181","BY763","BY876","CTS10031","CTS10147","CTS10188","CTS10229","CTS103","CTS10300","CTS10428","CTS10433","CTS10448","CTS10552","CTS10572","CTS10615","CTS10648","CTS1066","CTS10723","CTS10745","CTS10761","CTS10821","CTS10847","CTS11012","CTS11041","CTS11071","CTS11088","CTS11126","CTS11148","CTS11190","CTS11261","CTS11354","CTS114","CTS1141","CTS1148","CTS11503","CTS11530","CTS1164","CTS11651","CTS11731","CTS11759","CTS11816","CTS11907","CTS11949","CTS11970","CTS11985","CTS12023","CTS12058","CTS1216","CTS12449","CTS12450","CTS12578","CTS1276","CTS12856","CTS12933","CTS12934","CTS12948","CTS12950","CTS12976","CTS1340","CTS1353","CTS1413","CTS1758","CTS1806","CTS202","CTS2067","CTS210","CTS2105","CTS2230","CTS2275","CTS2284","CTS2289","CTS2515","CTS2670","CTS2800","CTS305","CTS316","CTS3202","CTS3268","CTS3366","CTS3403","CTS3466","CTS347","CTS3475","CTS3519","CTS352","CTS3543","CTS3654","CTS3700","CTS3802","CTS3868","CTS4053","CTS4086","CTS4094","CTS4137","CTS4178","CTS4209","CTS4235","CTS4326","CTS4443","CTS4463","CTS4608","CTS4643","CTS4715","CTS4784","CTS4853","CTS4984","CTS5052","CTS5152","CTS5156","CTS5304","CTS5334","CTS5359","CTS5370","CTS585","CTS5860","CTS5933","CTS5939","CTS597","CTS5998","CTS6062","CTS6063","CTS6117","CTS6285","CTS6352","CTS636","CTS6365","CTS6403","CTS6438","CTS6447","CTS6449","CTS6468","CTS6481","CTS6506","CTS656","CTS6631","CTS6677","CTS6704","CTS6848","CTS687","CTS6918","CTS6967","CTS7022","CTS7147","CTS7186","CTS7227","CTS7266","CTS7275","CTS7285","CTS7299","CTS730","CTS7317","CTS7335","CTS7451","CTS7611","CTS7626","CTS7810","CTS7925","CTS7929","CTS8126","CTS8203","CTS8216","CTS8300","CTS8440","CTS8492","CTS8506","CTS8521","CTS860","CTS8645","CTS8723","CTS8815","CTS9056","CTS9154","CTS9322","CTS9325","CTS9387","CTS9471","CTS9518","CTS9525","CTS9539","CTS9558","CTS97","CTS9894","CTS9900","CTS9925","CTS9975","CTS9976","DF106_FGC4100_S658_Y2841","DF109_FGC4101_S660_Y2845","DF23","F1013","F1024","F1055","F1096","F1127","F115","F1207","F1291","F1302","F1329","F1412","F1442","F1474","F1539","F1540","F1567","F1703","F1704","F1712","F1714","F1753","F1767","F1796","F1813","F1848","F1874","F188","F1899","F1924","F1946","F1956","F2018","F2142","F2155","F2165","F2208","F2224","F2236","F2304","F2332","F2370","F2371","F2402","F2480","F2516","F2546","F2558","F2587","F2600","F2654","F2688","F2724","F2742","F2753","F2767","F2837","F287","F2873","F2947","F2961","F2990","F3048","F3056","F3111","F313","F3136","F3143","F3195_PF1806","F3270","F3335","F3368_PF3566","F3402_PF3567","F3422","F3444","F3491","F3556","F3582","F3595","F3625","F3632","F3692","F3697","F371","F3735","F3806","F386","F3869","F3892","F3907","F3949","F3956","F3994","F4003","F4042","F4111","F4176","F4188_PF3539","F4244","F4251","F4257","F4282","F4338","F47","F492","F526","F557","F565","F646","F716","F719","F736","F741","F819","F836","F837","F862","F896","F995","FGC11678","FGC11897_YP327","FGC16362_Z18162","FGC16683_Y5619","FGC1721_Y5322","FGC20866_ZS2566","FGC20874_ZS2572","FGC24646","FGC28639_YP556","FGC29572","FGC3718_Y6369","FGC4108_S588","FGC462_S7073","FGC6948_Y2703","K257","K386","L1093","L1186","L1247","L132","L1324","L15","L16","L23","L253","L254","L294","L325","L387","L440","L442","L459","L464_1","L483","L484","L492","L498","L502","L503","L51","L52","L533","L556","L557","L625","L636","L665","L747","L762","L782","L817","L840","L99","M116","M129","M139","M171","M207","M222","M238","M251","M262","M275","M288","M343","M367","M39","M45","M526","M89","M94","M9574","M9588","MC14","N4","P102","P108","P117","P118","P128","P131","P132","P135","P136","P141","P145","P148","P151","P159","P160","P202","P225","P230","P232","P233","P237","P238","P268","P269","P289","P295","P305","P310","P40","P52","P59","P80","P84","P91","PAGES00048","PAGES00081","PAGES00101","PAGES00105","PF1015","PF1026","PF1031","PF1085","PF1097","PF1141","PF1147","PF1152","PF1164","PF1169","PF121","PF1232","PF1252","PF1269","PF1270","PF1279","PF1283","PF133","PF1368","PF147","PF1562","PF1577","PF1587","PF22","PF228","PF2334","PF2436","PF2438","PF2481","PF2495","PF2579","PF2593","PF2611","PF2624","PF2635","PF2643","PF2745","PF276","PF288","PF293","PF302","PF3051","PF3086","PF3107","PF3220","PF3248","PF328","PF3298","PF331","PF3320","PF3823","PF3890","PF3964","PF3986","PF4105","PF4246","PF4533","PF4573","PF4576","PF4589","PF4592","PF4647","PF4720","PF4876","PF4879","PF4957","PF5014","PF5122","PF535","PF5381","PF5735","PF5784","PF5787","PF5792","PF5819","PF5889","PF601","PF6145","PF625","PF6265","PF6271","PF6275","PF6286","PF6300","PF6314","PF6369","PF644","PF6445","PF6498","PF6673","PF668","PF671","PF679","PF6864","PF6914","PF698","PF700","PF7067","PF7328","PF7341","PF7374","PF7434","PF7527","PF7557","PF794","PF806","PF829","PF888","PF907","PF93","PF946","PF966","PF968","PF971","PF997","PK1","PR805","rs12116413","rs1276034","rs16980396","rs16980499","rs17250121","rs17307070","rs17842387","rs20321","rs2032652","rs2033003","rs2075640","rs28609124","rs35249440","rs35407486","rs3853054","rs7067237","rs7067486","rs7892924","rs7893044","rs877756","rs895530","rs9306845","rs9306848","rs9785670","rs9785716","rs9785717","rs9785740","rs9785811","rs9785846","rs9785853","rs9785905","rs9785953","rs9785994","rs9786043","rs9786082","rs9786139","rs9786148","rs9786181","rs9786207","rs9786247","rs9786283","rs9786290","rs9786325","rs9786439","rs9786443","rs9786714","rs9786770","s3","S3207","s5153","SK1247_Y4915","SK1410_Y5528_Z20169","V174","V186","V187","V205","V21","V216","V221","V227","V250","V29","V59","V79","V90","V94","Y1038","Y1049","Y1083","Y1113","Y1122","Y32","Y4864_Z16422","Y5272","Y5305_Z16500","Y5759_Z16420","Y6181","Y763","YP321","YSC0000075","YSC0000081","YSC0000082","YSC0000150","YSC0000186","YSC0000191","YSC0000216","YSC0000224","YSC0000225","YSC0000269","YSC0000288","YSC0000292","YSC0001071","Z11180","Z1149","Z133","Z1456","Z1476","Z1483","Z1504","Z1518","Z1589","Z1593","Z1616","Z18133","Z18140","Z1817","Z18186","Z1835","Z189","Z1975","Z2069","Z2082","Z2094","Z213","Z2396","Z284","Z290","Z2956","Z2961","Z2962","Z2963","Z2965","Z2968","Z2970","Z2972","Z2973","Z2976","Z2977","Z2983","Z2988","Z2989","Z2990","Z2991","Z315","Z3723","Z39","Z477","Z625","Z767","Z966","ZS251"]

[gotten]

Somewhere in this branch: http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=576&star=false

There are either some false positives or recurring mutations (MC14 is not compatible with M222>DF104).

[RobertCasey]

I see DF23>M222>DF106>DF109>FGC4108 from the ISOGG haplotree - but A531 and Z18 are under U106
and L557 is under Z251.

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

(http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html)Under Alex Williamson's L21 haplotree, you can look for more:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=3 (http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html)

If you have tested with Family Tree DNA, you can look at their haplotree
(you have to tested there to see the most complete haplotree). I did a
lot of random searches - you just have to look for matches in the two
public databases to build your haplotree. You should get onto the Yahoo
M222 group page and post your question with M222 researchers:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-M222-Project/info

I am L226 and have not researched M222 in much detail.

FGC4108 is also known as S588 (here is the tree at FTDNA)



S588
R-S588

F499
R-F499
PF7301
R-PF7301
S7049
R-S7049
S7814
R-S7814

BY202BY203BY204BY205
R-BY202

BY199More...
R-BY199


A694
R-A694

PF2028
R-PF2028


F1265
R-F1265


FGC4113
R-FGC4113
FGC19860
R-FGC19860
A5386A5388A5389A5387A5390
R-A5386
BY3347
R-BY3347

S590S595
R-S590


BY3342

R-BY3342

FGC23592
R-FGC23592

A1742A1743FGC23595
R-A1742

[gotten]

Wow, that is strange. I would expect a single SNP to be off as a back mutation but if multiple SNPs in multiple known branches are positive I start wondering about the method these SNPs were tested with.

First edit: OK, my conclusion was based on FGC4108. Robert's was based on two consecutive SNPs (DF106, DF109) in the same branch so his solution is more likely but I'm still puzzled by all the backmutations/potential false positives/recurring SNPs.

Second edit: FGC4108 is still possible according to the Big Tree. Alex Williamson has DF106 and DF109 in the same block. In that case you can still be M222>DF104>FGC4108.

[gmad]

Thanks for your help, I've looked up a lot of the SNPs on ytree and isogg, so have a better understanding now and will look more into S588. Thanks

[ArmandoR1b]

I found the same thing as Robert and gotten including a lot of false positives or recurrent SNPs but that the most likely group you are in is FGC4108/S588 http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=576

Z290 R1b1a2a1a2c
Z2976 R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a
DF23 R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1
M222 R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1
Z2962 R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1~
Z2963 R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1~
Z2970 R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1~
Z2973 R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1~
Z2988 R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1~
DF106 R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a
DF109 R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a1a
FGC4108 R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a1a2
S588 R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a1a2


If you haven't tested with FTDNA there is a DF49 SNP panel at YSEQ that could put you into a downstream SNP. http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=4926

[gmad]

Thanks. I've ordered the DF49 SNP panel from YSEQ

[Dubhthach]

Here's a M222 tree that might help somewhat though it hasn't been updated in last 6 months:

http://www.kennedydna.com/M222_tree.png

There's some debate that S588+ is enriched in surnames of Cenél nEógain origin, a background in Magherafelt might thus make a lot of sense, given that
(a) Modern Derry and Modern Tyrone both made up part of historic Tír Eóghain (land of Eóghan -- Tyrone is anglisced from this)
(b) Magherafelt was originally part of the english shired county of Tyrone before been added to the "County of Coleraine" to create what we now know as County Derry in early 17th century -- shiring of most of Ireland in 16th century/early 17th is direct result of Tudor conquest of Ireland.

Obviously as a Galway man I recognise the name as good East Galway surname linked to Uí Máine, but it's probable that there are a number of names that are anglisced as Madden, here's Griffith survey derived map showing occurence of surname in mid 19th century, note concentration in center Ulster:

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&Surname=Madden&UserID=

Likewise Woulfe in passing mentions an Antrim family see


Ó MADÁIN—I—O Maddane, O Madden, Madden; 'descendant of Madadhán' (diminutive of madadh, a dog); older form Ó Madadháin, now generally Ó Madaidhín, which see, with variants Ó Madaidh and Ó Madagáin, which see; the name of a distinguished branch of the Ui Maine in Co. Galway, who derive their descent from Madadhán (slain in 1008), who was son of Gadhra Mor, chief of Ui Maine from 1014 to 1027, and are of the same stock as the O'Kellys, with whom they originally formed one clan—the Ui Maine. About the middle of the 11th century, Siol nAnmchadha, a sub-division of the Ui Maine, became independent, and from that period down to the middle of the 17th century the chieftaincy of Siol nAnmchadha continued in almost unbroken succession in the family of O'Madden. The clan-lands, which in accordance with Irish usage were named from the clan, comprised the barony of Longford, in the south-east of Co. Galway, and the parish of Lusnagh, on the other side of the Shannon, in the present Offaly. Many distinguished chiefs of the name are mentioned in the Irish annals. In 1612, Donal O'Madden, 'captain of his nation,' settled his manor and castle of Longford and all his other estates in Co. Galway on his son and heir, Anmchadh, or Ambrose, O'Madden, in tail male. Ambrose died in 1637, and was succeeded by his son, John O'Madden. John's property was confiscated after the Cromwellian wars, but was in part restored in 1677 by grant under the Act of Settlement. Five of the name were attainted in 1691. The O'Maddens of Co. Antrim (formerly called O Maddegane) are probably a distinct family. On the other hand, there is reason to believe that the Anglo-Irish family of Madden, formerly of Baggotrath, near Dublin, is a branch of the O'Maddens of Siol nAnmchadha.

---
Ó MADAIDHÍN—I—O Maddine, O Madden, Madden; 'descendant of Madaidhín' (diminutive of 'madadh', a dog); a variant of Ó Madáin, which see. This seems to have been always the popular form of the name, and is at the present day almost universal in the spoken language of Connacht.
---
Ó MAIDÍN, O'Madden, Madden. See Ó Madaidhín.
---
Mac an MHADAIDH—VII—MacAvady, MacEvady, MacAvaddy, MacEvaddy, MacVady, Covaddy, (Madden); 'son of the dog' (Irish 'madadh'); an old Mayo surname; now very often incorrectly anglicised Madden, with which it is partly synonymous.
---



It would be intersting to see how you would match if you had STR's tested, though I assumed you'd have to send sample into FTDNA for that (I'm not familiar with DNA Worldwide)

-Paul

[gmad]

That's interesting, thanks. I've checked the Griffith's Valuations, and my ancestor's name is spelt as Madigan, then Merrigan, and finally Madden.

http://tree.gmadden.co.uk/media/VAL-12-B-34-11A-1860-1863.jpg
http://tree.gmadden.co.uk/media/VAL-12-B-34-4B-1864-1883.jpg
http://tree.gmadden.co.uk/media/VAL-12-B-34-4C-1884-1898.jpg
http://tree.gmadden.co.uk/media/VAL-12-B-34-4D-1899-1915.jpg

I have sent for the YSEQ DF49 pack, so will hopefully be able to narrow it down after that. I'll get the STR test too as a next step.

[Dubhthach]

There's a definete concentration of Madigan in Derry going by Griffith's Survey see:
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&Surname=Madigan&UserID=

With regards to surname change, what's interesting is that in 1901 census there is nobody by surname Madigan in Derry (in contrast to Griffith) however there are 210 Madden's in the 1901 census for Derry, 175 are down as Roman Catholic.

Given your own history of Madigan -> Merigan -> Madden, it's probably case that this was widespread adaptation is probably due to process of assimilation that we often see where two different surnames will "merge" due to one been more common than other.

[gmad]

My branch moved from Ireland in the 1870s/80s I believe, to England, Australia and America. Alexander died in 1892, so unfortunately, I don't know of any around in 1901. I believe they were protestant though, as 2 of his sons were members of the Orange Order.

This is Alexander's son James, who moved to Australia:
http://tree.gmadden.co.uk/media/JamesMadden.jpg

The high proportion of Maddens as Catholic should help narrow it down though, I'll have a look at that. Maybe I can find some common family names.
Thanks

[Dubhthach]

My branch moved from Ireland in the 1870s/80s I believe, to England, Australia and America. Alexander died in 1892, so unfortunately, I don't know of any around in 1901. I believe they were protestant though, as 2 of his sons were members of the Orange Order.

This is Alexander's son James, who moved to Australia:
http://tree.gmadden.co.uk/media/JamesMadden.jpg

The high proportion of Maddens as Catholic should help narrow it down though, I'll have a look at that. Maybe I can find some common family names.
Thanks

Well conversions worked both ways. Where they presbyterian or Church of Ireland (Anglican?).

If you go to 1901 census page and hit "More search options"
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

You can filter by religion. Also Derry is down as Londonderry in census (likewise Offaly is King's County and Laois is Queen's County)

[gmad]

Thanks, I've signed up to Irish Roots and am currently going through every Madden in the area to link them together. There are some familiar names, so I'm hopeful I'll find something.

[gmad]

I have quite a few results back now from my M222 Panel test with YSEQ. It's not complete yet, but they're currently processing markers below S603. From my understanding, this is associated with Cenél nEógain and Eógan mac Néill?


This is my current list of tested markers:


MARKER+STARTENDALLELE
A65251634581016345810C-
CTS34061490261314902613A-
CTS42031547626015476260A-
CTS42041547632415476324G-
CTS42051547639815476398A-
DF1051459593214595932A+
FGC244931397999513979995T-
FGC266371634588016345880G+
FGC28151397954413979544T-
FGC32041397979713979797T-
FGC66561547635815476358C-
FGC79271459593214595932A+
FGC79281397984113979841A+
L961490245614902456A-
L9941490241714902417C-
M112451459582114595821G-
M2221490241414902414A+
PAGES000841490241414902414A+
PF45451547632415476324G-
PH17151547611915476119A-
S5881634587216345872A+
S6031397984113979841A+
S6591459593214595932A+
S78141547626715476267G-
SK16831490244614902446C-
Y102731397998813979988G-
Y15241397999513979995T+
Y167211547626815476268A-
Y28431459593214595932A+
YP571490223114902231C-
YSC00012781547632415476324G-
Z105921459587214595872T-
Z117971397998813979988G-
Z147411397992813979928T-
Z153471397987013979870G-
Z160251397995913979959G-
Z193031547617015476170C-
Z269521634587916345879C-
Z319491459587614595876A-
Z347781547622915476229T-
Z83881547637215476372G-


and this is my order history:

R1b-DF49 (including M222) North West Irish Panel
M222
S659
S588
S603
S7814
S590
FGC23592

[Dubhthach]

I have quite a few results back now from my M222 Panel test with YSEQ. It's not complete yet, but they're currently processing markers below S603. From my understanding, this is associated with Cenél nEógain and Eógan mac Néill?


This is my current list of tested markers:


MARKER+STARTENDALLELE
A65251634581016345810C-
CTS34061490261314902613A-
CTS42031547626015476260A-
CTS42041547632415476324G-
CTS42051547639815476398A-
DF1051459593214595932A+
FGC244931397999513979995T-
FGC266371634588016345880G+
FGC28151397954413979544T-
FGC32041397979713979797T-
FGC66561547635815476358C-
FGC79271459593214595932A+
FGC79281397984113979841A+
L961490245614902456A-
L9941490241714902417C-
M112451459582114595821G-
M2221490241414902414A+
PAGES000841490241414902414A+
PF45451547632415476324G-
PH17151547611915476119A-
S5881634587216345872A+
S6031397984113979841A+
S6591459593214595932A+
S78141547626715476267G-
SK16831490244614902446C-
Y102731397998813979988G-
Y15241397999513979995T+
Y167211547626815476268A-
Y28431459593214595932A+
YP571490223114902231C-
YSC00012781547632415476324G-
Z105921459587214595872T-
Z117971397998813979988G-
Z147411397992813979928T-
Z153471397987013979870G-
Z160251397995913979959G-
Z193031547617015476170C-
Z269521634587916345879C-
Z319491459587614595876A-
Z347781547622915476229T-
Z83881547637215476372G-


and this is my order history:

R1b-DF49 (including M222) North West Irish Panel
M222
S659
S588
S603
S7814
S590
FGC23592

Hard to say really, S588 does seem enriched in surnames that are attriubuted to Cenél nEogain. Of course Eoghan mac Néill like his father is probably a semi-mythical character. If we leave that aside we are looking at bunch of surnames which claim to be part of same kindred during early medieval period.