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View Full Version : What was the sub-clade R1a that the Burgundians took away?



The_Lyonnist
03-22-2016, 04:09 PM
It illuminate the history of this unknown people who make R1a in south-eastern France.

Anath
03-23-2016, 02:05 PM
I don't know what you meant but r1a and r1b have existed both in France for some thousands of years.
Heres some Y-DNA r1 information:

There were two distinct, though related, genetic groups of Proto-Indo-Europeans: the southern R1b branch, linked with the diffusion of the Greco-Anatolian, Albanian, Italic, Celtic and Germanic languages, and the northern R1a branch, associated with the propagation of the Daco-Thracian, Illyrian, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages.
R1a was the first to reach the Low Countries and northeastern France, with the Corded Ware culture (2900-2400 BCE), a late Chalcolithic and early Bronze Age expansion of the Yamna culture. Lineages dating from this period would belong to the Z283 subclade.
The Proto-Celto-Germanic branch of R1b (L11) settled around Bohemia and eastern Germany circa 2800 BCE and established the Unetice culture, the bronze-age culure which would expand across all Western Europe and Scandinavia over the next millennium, and replace the Neolithic/Chalcolithic Bell Beaker culture.

An expansion of Unetice to the north and west gave birth to the Proto-Germanic branch (R1b-U106), which mixed with the indigenous populations of northern Germany and the Netherlands, notably I2a2 (descended from Cro-Magnons) and R1a-Z283 (from the Corded Ware culture), but also with a minority of Neolithic lineages (E-V13, G2a, J, T). From 1700 BCE, R1b-U106 people penetrated into Scandinavia, where they blended with the local I1 and R1a-Z283 populations.

Judging from the propagation of bronze working to Western Europe, those first Proto-Celts reached France and the Low Countries by 2200 BCE, then the British Isles by 2100-2000 BCE. This first migration would have brought the L21 subclade of R1b to Northwest Europe. Through a founder effect, L21 became the dominant paternal lineage among the ancient Britons and Irish, and remained it among modern Bretons, Welsh, Highland Scots and Irish. Another migration from Germany appears to have been led by men belonging to the DF27 subclade of R1b and conquered Southwest France, then the Iberian peninsula. DF27 is now by far the main paternal lineage of the Gascons, Basques and Catalans.

The third major Proto-Celtic branch was R1b-U152, which is thought to have evolved from the Urnfield, Hallstatt and La Tène cultures (1300-50 BCE) around the Alps. An early Urnfield migration brought U152 to Italy around 1200 BCE, where they became Italic speakers, including the Romans (=> see Genetic history of Italy). The La Tène culture (450-50 BCE) is the one most strongly associated with the ancient Gauls. Gaul encompassed all modern France, and all the Low Countries south of the Rhine, as well as the German Rhineland, which happens to be the territory where U152 is found at the highest frequencies outside Italy. U152 can therefore be considered to be a marker of both Gaulish and Italic ancestry. U152 is divided in many subclades of its own, some of which are Italic, while others are Gaulish or more widely associated with the Hallstatt and La Tène expansions across a vast part of Europe, as far west as Iberia and England, and as far east as Anatolia and Ukraine or Russia (and perhaps even China). The Gaulish invasions of northern Italy, the latter Roman conquest of Gaul, and the numerous intermarriages across the two sides of the Alps mean that both Italic and Gaulish subclades are found scattered across Western Europe nowadays. However, the L2 and Z36 subclades appear to be mostly northern and therefore probably more Celtic, while Z144 and Z192 subclades are far more frequent in Italy and could be more genuinely Italic or Roman.

During the late Roman period, the Franks were allowed to settle peacefully within the borders of the empire around the territory of modern Belgium. The Franks were a Germanic tribe who originated somewhere between the northern Netherlands and Denmark. They would have belonged mostly to haplogroups R1b-U106 (about half of all lineages), I1, R1a (Z283 and L664) and I2a2a (M223).

In the 5th century, the Burgunds, the Visigoths and other Germanic tribes invaded Gaul under of the pressure from the Huns, a tribe that originated around modern Mongolia. The Burgunds originally came from the island of Borgholm in eastern Denmark, while the Goths hailed from southern Sweden. Both tribes would have carried a significantly higher percentage of haplogroups I1 and R1a than the Franks. The Goths had lived for several centuries in Poland, Ukraine and the Balkans before reaching southern France and could have been carrying Proto-Slavic R1a (Z280 and M458) as well as Balkanic lineages (I2-M423, E-V13, J2b). The genetic influence of the Goths in France and Iberia appears to have been very minor though. The Huns, who would have belonged to haplogroups C3, Q1a and R1a-Z93, may account for a tiny fraction of modern paternal lineages in France and Belgium.

After the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the Franks re-unified ancient Gaul under their rule and conquered most of Germany, Austria, Switzerland and the northern half of Italy (=> see History of the Franks).
Between the 9th and the 11th centuries the Vikings settled in various regions of France and the Benelux (notably Normandy and Bruges), bringing a new influx of Germanic haplogroups (R1b-U106, R1a-Z283, I1, I2-M223), but this time with a higher proportion of I1, especially the Nordic I1a2 (L22) subclade, but also the typically Scandinavian R1a-Z284 subclade.

Jean M
03-23-2016, 03:38 PM
There were two distinct, though related, genetic groups of Proto-Indo-Europeans: the southern R1b branch, linked with the diffusion of the Greco-Anatolian, Albanian, Italic, Celtic and Germanic languages, and the northern R1a branch, associated with the propagation of the Daco-Thracian, Illyrian, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages....

Welcome to the forum Anath! Over here we like to know where ideas come from. So I will just mention for the sake of other readers that you are quoting from Eupedia. That website is brilliantly accessible for newcomers to the discussion of what genetics can tell us about prehistory and early history. Maciamo provides clear, easy-to-follow maps and "family trees" of haplogroups. The only snag is that he has always written his interesting deductions as though they were simple, proven fact. He does not explain them or provide individual references for them, as scholars have to do.

In reality not everyone agrees with everything he says. That is not surprising in a field which is progressing at great speed. Discoveries can be rapidly outdated. What seems a sensible deduction today could be turned into nonsense tomorrow. (I'm constantly revising.) So it is important to explain one's reasoning and give supporting data.

A.D.
03-23-2016, 04:01 PM
JeanM wont say it but http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ is probably the best starting point. It is updated and easy to follow.It's a must IMHO.

Jean M
03-23-2016, 06:32 PM
JeanM wont say it but http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ is probably the best starting point. It is updated and easy to follow.It's a must IMHO.

Thank you for those kind words, but a lot of what was on there once upon a time under the heading "Peopling of Europe" disappeared into the book Ancestral Journeys. I have absolutely nothing online there about Burgundians right now.

Agamemnon
03-23-2016, 07:15 PM
I'm gonna put this bluntly but I think it really needs to be put bluntly: Eupedia is the tabloid of population genetics.

Anath
03-24-2016, 03:50 AM
I'm gonna put this bluntly but I think it really needs to be put bluntly: Eupedia is the tabloid of population genetics.

Of course this information is subjective, but no one really knows the extent of all Y-DNA migration mutations into Southeastern France perfectly.
I have read many articles of ideas on such, but i feel like eupedia is a rough summary of sorts.. i was a bit lazy, but i feel like if you can see on a map the approximate locations of Y-DNA mutations and then compare with controlled DNA samples based on region compared to a countries history, you can only make a vague guess anyway how it got there :P