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Dubhthach
03-24-2016, 03:04 PM
Came across this on Facebook, some mention of using teeth for aDNA. I see some archaelogists from UCD (University College Dublin) are involved, hopefully they talk to their genetics colleagues in both UCD and in TCD (Bradley's team)

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle?utm_source=sciencemagazine&utm_medium=facebook-text&utm_campaign=bronzeagebattle-3174



Ancient DNA could potentially reveal much more: When compared to other Bronze Age samples from around Europe at this time, it could point to the homelands of the warriors as well as such traits as eye and hair color. Genetic analysis is just beginning, but so far it supports the notion of far-flung origins. DNA from teeth suggests some warriors are related to modern southern Europeans and others to people living in modern-day Poland and Scandinavia. “This is not a bunch of local idiots,” says University of Mainz geneticist Joachim Burger. “It’s a highly diverse population.”

lgmayka
03-24-2016, 03:20 PM
I assume this is the same archaeological dig (http://gepris.dfg.de/gepris/OCTOPUS?context=projekt&id=236942581&language=en&task=showDetail):
---
The human skeletal material from the Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg West-Pomerania, represents an unparalleled archaeological discovery: the anthropological and biomolecular preservation of the bones is remarkably good, and the large number of individuals from a putative Bronze Age battlefield context is a rare find. A pilot study carried out by the applicants confirmed that the preservation of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA is excellent. The latest developments in DNA sequencing technology (next generation sequencing, NGS), and especially the progress in modeling prehistoric population structure through computer simulations, enables the precise reconstruction of the population history of such a large coherent site...Bronze Age populations are the key to testing this hypothesis, which we propose to do using our newly-developed multi locus system of 319 neutral chromosomal markers. Furthermore, the excellent preservation of these samples will allow us to conduct a population- genetic analysis of paternal lineages. Not least, this is an opportunity to retrace evolutionary adaptation processes (e.g. Calcium- and Vitamin D metabolism) originating in the Neolithic transition.We plan to use mitochondrial and nuclear aDNA capture essays and next generation sequencing technology to generate the most comprehensive prehistoric DNA data set to date. This study will be the first to combine multi locus aDNA capture assays and spatially explicit coalescence analyses of prehistoric DNA, and will undoubtedly set a new standard for human population genetics.
---

Dubhthach
03-24-2016, 03:37 PM
I assume this is the same archaeological dig (http://gepris.dfg.de/gepris/OCTOPUS?context=projekt&id=236942581&language=en&task=showDetail):
---
The human skeletal material from the Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg West-Pomerania, represents an unparalleled archaeological discovery: the anthropological and biomolecular preservation of the bones is remarkably good, and the large number of individuals from a putative Bronze Age battlefield context is a rare find. A pilot study carried out by the applicants confirmed that the preservation of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA is excellent. The latest developments in DNA sequencing technology (next generation sequencing, NGS), and especially the progress in modeling prehistoric population structure through computer simulations, enables the precise reconstruction of the population history of such a large coherent site...Bronze Age populations are the key to testing this hypothesis, which we propose to do using our newly-developed multi locus system of 319 neutral chromosomal markers. Furthermore, the excellent preservation of these samples will allow us to conduct a population- genetic analysis of paternal lineages. Not least, this is an opportunity to retrace evolutionary adaptation processes (e.g. Calcium- and Vitamin D metabolism) originating in the Neolithic transition.We plan to use mitochondrial and nuclear aDNA capture essays and next generation sequencing technology to generate the most comprehensive prehistoric DNA data set to date. This study will be the first to combine multi locus aDNA capture assays and spatially explicit coalescence analyses of prehistoric DNA, and will undoubtedly set a new standard for human population genetics.
---

Indeed, that second link mentions Dr. Thomas Terberger, whose quoted in the ScienceMag article:


"They weren't farmer-soldiers who went out every few years to brawl. These are professional fighters."
Thomas Terberger, archaeologist at the Lower Saxony State Service for Cultural Heritage

ArmandoR1b
03-24-2016, 04:05 PM
Indeed, that second link mentions Dr. Thomas Terberger, whose quoted in the ScienceMag article:
Both links also mention University of Mainz geneticist Joachim Burger

Dubhthach
03-24-2016, 04:13 PM
Given that it's only small enough section of site excavated it's quite possible this site is gonna give us a fair number of papers over the next couple of years.

Reith
03-24-2016, 05:09 PM
All my Autosomal results point to this areas me he surrounding. I hope we get some good day at from the genes.

I wonder if this is a possible connection to the Aesir-Vanir war/War of the classes from Indo-European theory.

authun
03-25-2016, 11:40 AM
For those unfamiliar with Tollense, someone on the Old European Culture blogspot wrote up a summary last year:

http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/tollense-battle.html

This photo shows the effect of a bronze age arrowhead on a man's skull as well as the excellent state of preservation in some samples.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HtV16qKRYSA/VYhiFrfb9tI/AAAAAAAAEnQ/34eECei-Yh4/s1600/arrow%2Bembedded%2Binto%2Ba%2Bscull.jpg

Jean M
03-25-2016, 11:53 AM
This site was mentioned last year on this forum. Tomenable gave us a link here:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1512-Bronze-Age-Weaponry&p=99593&viewfull=1#post99593

to a paper by Detlef Jantzen et al., A Bronze Age battlefield? Weapons and trauma in the Tollense Valley, north-eastern Germany, Antiquity 85, (2011): 417–433, which is available on Researchgate https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250308033_A_Bronze_Age_Battlefield_Weapons_and_Tra uma_in_the_Tollense_Valley_north-eastern_Germany


Chance discoveries of weapons, horse bones and human skeletal remains along the banks of the River Tollense led to a campaign of research which has identified them as the debris from a Bronze Age battle. The resources of war included horses, arrowheads and wooden clubs, and the dead had suffered blows indicating face-to-face combat. This surprisingly modern and decidedly vicious struggle took place over the swampy braided streams of the river in an area of settled, possibly coveted, territory. Washed along by the current, the bodies and weapons came to rest on a single alluvial surface.

The paper has been in my library since 2011. I'm delighted to see more information flowing out of this site.

Krefter
03-25-2016, 02:47 PM
My guess is they only have Y DNA/mtDNA, so don't take their conclusions too seriously. Why specifically Poland and Scandinavia? Some genetics don't understand, that some haplogroups are most common in certain regions but everyone with that haplogroup didn't get it from that region.

Chances are, some had R1a, which is why they associate them with Scandinavia and Poland. R1a has been in Germany since Corded Ware times, and doesn't suggest any migration from Poland if people in Germany had it in 1200 BC. Instead, it suggests a R1a-heavy Corded Ware-derived people still dominated parts of Germany in 12000 BC.

You can't differentiate Polish from Scandinavian, unless you can confirm with autosomal DNA that the sample had Polish or Scandinavian-specific drift, which does exist. I'm very skeptical they were able to confidently say, by looking at DNA, some came from Scandinavia and some came from Poland. Instead, I think they were all locals, and some had typical Polish or Scandinavian Y DNA.

If they have autosomal DNA, they can tell if some came from Southern Europe, so that I'm more confident of. Except, they should be able to tell, if they were more similar to Spanish or Italian or Bulgarian or Greek or whatever. If some were clearly Southern European, that does mean these warriors had diverse origins, however I think adding Scandinavia and Poland, is far-fetched and an exaggeration of the diversity of the warriors.

authun
03-25-2016, 03:18 PM
If they have autosomal DNA, they can tell if some came from Southern Europe, so that I'm more confident of. Except, they should be able to tell, if they were more similar to Spanish or Italian or Bulgarian or Greek or whatever.

Igmayka's link above (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6735-North-German-Bronze-age-(1200BC)-battle-site&p=147347&viewfull=1#post147347) explains what they hope to test and given that they are looking at the questions of calcium and vitamin D, it's a given that they will be looking at some autosomal dna.

authun
03-25-2016, 03:26 PM
For german speakers, there is a TV programme, Hansablick, which did a feature on this site in 2014:

Schatzsucher in Mecklenburg Vorpommern (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYofbqCQTCs)

Jean M
03-25-2016, 06:42 PM
... Why specifically Poland and Scandinavia? .. You can't differentiate Polish from Scandinavian, unless you can confirm with autosomal DNA that the sample had Polish or Scandinavian-specific drift, which does exist. I'm very skeptical they were able to confidently say, by looking at DNA, some came from Scandinavia and some came from Poland.

They are not saying that that these Bronze Age people came from Scandinavia and/or Poland. They are saying that some of them resemble modern populations of Scandinavia and/or Poland (i.e. northern Europeans). We moderns are descended from the ancients, not the other way around. :)

Tomenable
03-25-2016, 08:28 PM
My guess is they only have Y DNA/mtDNA, so don't take their conclusions too seriously. Why specifically Poland and Scandinavia? Some genetics don't understand, that some haplogroups are most common in certain regions but everyone with that haplogroup didn't get it from that region.

Chances are, some had R1a, which is why they associate them with Scandinavia and Poland. R1a has been in Germany since Corded Ware times, and doesn't suggest any migration from Poland if people in Germany had it in 1200 BC. Instead, it suggests a R1a-heavy Corded Ware-derived people still dominated parts of Germany in 12000 BC.

You can't differentiate Polish from Scandinavian, unless you can confirm with autosomal DNA that the sample had Polish or Scandinavian-specific drift, which does exist. I'm very skeptical they were able to confidently say, by looking at DNA, some came from Scandinavia and some came from Poland. Instead, I think they were all locals, and some had typical Polish or Scandinavian Y DNA.

If they have autosomal DNA, they can tell if some came from Southern Europe, so that I'm more confident of. Except, they should be able to tell, if they were more similar to Spanish or Italian or Bulgarian or Greek or whatever. If some were clearly Southern European, that does mean these warriors had diverse origins, however I think adding Scandinavia and Poland, is far-fetched and an exaggeration of the diversity of the warriors.

This battle took place ca. 1250 BC. Halberstadt man I0099 / HAL36 with R1a1a1b1a2-Z280 was dated to 1113-1021 BC. So this battle is contemporary with the presence of "modern", typically Balto-Slavic, R1a clades in the territory of Eastern Germany.

They probably found more of R1a-Z280 and / or R1a-M458 among those >130 men killed in the battle, and that's why they associate them with modern-day Poles. But of course it is possible that they also tested autosomal DNA and found it similar to modern Poles. As for the association of other warriors with Scandinavia - possibly they found some typically Scandinavian Y-DNA as well (or autosomal similarities).

rms2
03-25-2016, 08:37 PM
This battle took place ca. 1250 BC. Halberstadt man I0099 / HAL36 with R1a1a1b1a2-Z280 was dated to 1113-1021 BC. So this battle is contemporary with the presence of "modern", typically Balto-Slavic, R1a clades in the territory of Eastern Germany.

They probably found more of R1a-Z280 and / or R1a-M458 among those >130 men killed in the battle, and that's why they associate them with modern-day Poles. But of course it is possible that they also tested autosomal DNA and found it similar to modern Poles. As for the association of other warriors with Scandinavia - possibly they found some typically Scandinavian Y-DNA as well (or autosomal similarities).

From what I can see, the site is pretty close to modern Poland, as well.

https://goo.gl/maps/W5WCwefXCBB2

Tomenable
03-25-2016, 08:50 PM
They are not saying that that these Bronze Age people came from Scandinavia and/or Poland.

But they are saying that warriors who died in that battle probably came from many distant regions (based on isotope levels in teeth).

rozenfeld
03-25-2016, 09:20 PM
So how long we have to wait for publication of DNA analysis? Based on current examples, it could take years.

vettor
03-25-2016, 10:04 PM
This battle took place ca. 1250 BC. Halberstadt man I0099 / HAL36 with R1a1a1b1a2-Z280 was dated to 1113-1021 BC. So this battle is contemporary with the presence of "modern", typically Balto-Slavic, R1a clades in the territory of Eastern Germany.

They probably found more of R1a-Z280 and / or R1a-M458 among those >130 men killed in the battle, and that's why they associate them with modern-day Poles. But of course it is possible that they also tested autosomal DNA and found it similar to modern Poles. As for the association of other warriors with Scandinavia - possibly they found some typically Scandinavian Y-DNA as well (or autosomal similarities).

Halderstadt is SW of Magdeburg in old east-Germany , near the the west german border

I never heard of R1a there only heard about R1b1a and G2a2 in that area

Tomenable
03-25-2016, 10:44 PM
I never heard of R1a there

He was extensively discussed in this thread:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3820-R1a-from-Haak-et-al-2015


A Corded Ware pastoralist from Esperstedt, Germany (2473 - 2348 cal BCE) was found to be R1a-Z282. --->[see below]

And most brilliantly, something many of us had suspected for years now is confirmed!

The Late Bronze Age person from Halberstadt, Germany (Lusatian Culture, 1113 -1021 cal BCE) was found to be R1a-Z280!

Of course already CWC in Germany had a lot of R1a, but those were different subclades (including nowadays typically Western European L664).

I wrote about Corded Ware Culture's R1a samples from Germany, Scandinavia (Battle Axe) and Poland here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5590-Volga-Steppe-Khvalynsk-culture-(Copper-Age)-from-5200-4000-BC-R1a-and-R1b-together!&p=147178#post147178


RISE 446 is R1a1a1a-L664+

ESP 14 is R1a1a-M198*
ESP 11 is R1a1a1-M417* --->[or actually R1a-Z282 if we believe T101's post quoted above]

RISE 436 is R1a1a1-M417+
RISE 434 is R1a1a1-M417+ (and probably xL664)

EUL 9(99-3), 11(99-2), 12(99-4) are all R1a1+ (and probably CTS4385+)

ESP 8, 20, 28, 32, 33, 36 are all R1a1a1-M417+ (and probably xZ645).

ESP 17 is R1a1a1-M417+
RISE 431 is R1a1a1-M417+

RISE 1 is R1+
RISE 42 is R1a+

RISE 94 is R1a1a1b-Z645+
RISE 61 is R1a1a1b1a3b1-CTS8401+

Two Rogalin samples are R1a1+

Tomenable
03-25-2016, 11:06 PM
Is it possible to differentiate between skeletons of the defeated and skeletons of the victors?

It would be interesting to see if there were clear genetic differences between the opposing sides.

Gravetto-Danubian
03-25-2016, 11:11 PM
Is it possible to differentiate between skeletons of the defeated and skeletons of the victors?

It would be interesting to see if there were clear genetic differences between the opposing sides.

How would they ?
If you're dead you're dead. Doesn't matter if your side eventually won or lost
Especially if these guys are professional soldiers from far and wide; they are probably not neatly delineated genetically

Tomenable
03-25-2016, 11:18 PM
Especially if these guys are professional soldiers from far and wide

That could be some European equivalent of the "Flower Wars" of Pre-Columbian Mexico:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_war#Practice

"Flower wars differed from typical wars in a number of important aspects. While engaging in a flower war, competing armies would meet on a "preset date at a preselected place.”[5] These places became sacred sites and were called cuauhtlalli or yaotlalli.[2] Combatants signaled the start of war by burning a large "pyre of paper and incense" between the armies.[2] Actual battle tactics also differed from typical warfare.[6] In typical warfare, the Aztecs used atlatl darts, stones, and other ranged weapons to weaken enemy forces from afar.[6] However, in flower wars, the Aztecs neglected to use ranged weapons and instead used weapons such as the macuahuitl[7] that required skill and close proximity to the enemy.[6] The use of these kinds of weapons allowed the Aztecs to display their individual combat ability, which was an important part of the flower war.[6] In regards to army size, flower wars involved fewer soldiers than typical Aztec wars did.[2] Furthermore, a larger proportion of these soldiers would be drawn from nobility than during a typical war.[8] These characteristics allowed the Aztecs to engage in flower wars during any time of the year.[8] In contrast, the Aztecs could fight larger wars of conquest only from late autumn to early spring, because Aztec citizens were needed for farming purposes during the rest of the year.[8] Additionally, flower wars differed from typical wars in that there were equal numbers of soldiers on each side of the battle; this was also related to the Aztecs wanting to show off their military prowess.[9]"

Agamemnon
03-26-2016, 12:05 AM
^^ I very much doubt that, the "Flower wars" (xochiyaoyotl) by definition weren't designed to kill people but to make prisoners (who would later be sacrificed). The sheer number of casualties here makes this very unlikely, the "flower wars" are a typically Nahuan custom. I think the comparison to LBA warfare in the Eastern Mediterranean is appropriate though.
That being said, I really wonder which Southern Europeans Joachim Burger is referring to.

miiser
03-26-2016, 12:38 AM
Is it possible to differentiate between skeletons of the defeated and skeletons of the victors?

It would be interesting to see if there were clear genetic differences between the opposing sides.

I think it might be possible to draw some limited conclusions based on the archaeology. The article states that some "Some warriors broke and ran, and were struck down from behind." Presumably, the ones that received injuries in the back while fleeing were probably on the losing side. I suppose there might also be differences in the weapon styles of one side versus the other, such as the style of the arrowheads recovered from bodies. If there is any kind of armor or equipment associated with any of the bodies, there might be differences of style. If the arrangement of the bodies is not too disturbed, one might be able to draw some broad conclusions based on the location and orientation of the bodies, assuming the two sides were generally facing each other as they fought, or fighting from opposite sides of the river.

sweuro
03-26-2016, 12:39 AM
My guess is they only have Y DNA/mtDNA, so don't take their conclusions too seriously. Why specifically Poland and Scandinavia? Some genetics don't understand, that some haplogroups are most common in certain regions but everyone with that haplogroup didn't get it from that region.

Chances are, some had R1a, which is why they associate them with Scandinavia and Poland. R1a has been in Germany since Corded Ware times, and doesn't suggest any migration from Poland if people in Germany had it in 1200 BC. Instead, it suggests a R1a-heavy Corded Ware-derived people still dominated parts of Germany in 12000 BC.

You can't differentiate Polish from Scandinavian, unless you can confirm with autosomal DNA that the sample had Polish or Scandinavian-specific drift, which does exist. I'm very skeptical they were able to confidently say, by looking at DNA, some came from Scandinavia and some came from Poland. Instead, I think they were all locals, and some had typical Polish or Scandinavian Y DNA.

If they have autosomal DNA, they can tell if some came from Southern Europe, so that I'm more confident of. Except, they should be able to tell, if they were more similar to Spanish or Italian or Bulgarian or Greek or whatever. If some were clearly Southern European, that does mean these warriors had diverse origins, however I think adding Scandinavia and Poland, is far-fetched and an exaggeration of the diversity of the warriors.
They say they have the genes for eye color and hair color, so it's definately autosomal dna.

Tomenable
03-26-2016, 12:44 AM
I think it might be possible to draw some limited conclusions based on the archaeology. The article states that some "Some warriors broke and ran, and were struck down from behind." Presumably, the ones that received injuries in the back while fleeing were probably on the losing side. I suppose there might also be differences in the weapon styles of one side versus the other, such as the style of the arrowheads recovered from bodies. If there is any kind of armor or equipment associated with any of the bodies, there might be differences of style. If the arrangement of the bodies is not too disturbed, one might be able to draw some broad conclusions based on the location and orientation of the bodies, assuming the two sides were generally facing each other as they fought, or fighting from opposite sides of the river.

Good points (especially the one about warriors who broke and fled being those from the defeated army).


They say they have the genes for eye color and hair color, so it's definately autosomal dna.

And also the genes responsible for Vitamin D and Calcium metabolism (as Authun noticed before).

Tomenable
03-26-2016, 12:57 AM
Autosomal DNA from Iron Age Wielbark culture is also already "somewhere around", but I was asked to keep it to myself.

Generalissimo
03-26-2016, 12:59 AM
Judging by the project description, they're obviously testing Y-HGs, full mtDNA sequences and hundreds of thousands of autosomal SNPs, so there's no reason why they can't associate the skeletons to very specific present-day European populations.

Gravetto-Danubian
03-26-2016, 04:53 AM
That being said, I really wonder which Southern Europeans Joachim Burger is referring to.

Probably anywhere, from Iberia to Greece. BUt if i had to guess, maybe Hungary and its southern areas. Bronze Age connections with Scandinavia and Carpatho-Danube region are well described, as far as Mycenean shaft graves.

Reith
03-26-2016, 09:48 AM
Some warriors used bronze, some wood and flint.

I would guess that the ones from the south had much more access to metal.

If they group DNA of those injured with bronze opposed to flint, perhaps you can see a pattern.

Or, as suggested in the paper, higher status warriors had more bronze available to them.

Reith
03-26-2016, 09:51 AM
Also, it is interesting that the rings discovered are similar to Unetice rings as mention in the old Europe blog

Dubhthach
03-26-2016, 11:02 AM
Some warriors used bronze, some wood and flint.

I would guess that the ones from the south had much more access to metal.

If they group DNA of those injured with bronze opposed to flint, perhaps you can see a pattern.

Or, as suggested in the paper, higher status warriors had more bronze available to them.

Another way to look at is those using wood/flint perhaps had higher level of Neolithic ancestry, though 1200BC seems bit late. But if you take that as a potential argument, high levels of EEF ancestry would make them resemble modern Mediterranean populations. Just a thought on my part.

Heber
03-26-2016, 01:56 PM
Interesting PodCast from Science Mag:

Andrew Curry joins host Sarah Crespi to discuss a grisly find in Northern Germany that suggests Bronze Age northern Europe was more organized and more violent than thought.

"Ancient DNA evidence is telling the story that some of them came from populations related to modern Poland or Russia and some related to modern Italy"

Item starts from 15:00:
http://www.sciencemag.org/podcast/podcast-battling-it-out-bronze-age-letting-go-orcas-and-evolving-silicon-based-life

Tomenable
03-26-2016, 02:22 PM
Interesting PodCast from Science Mag:

Andrew Curry joins host Sarah Crespi to discuss a grisly find in Northern Germany that suggests Bronze Age northern Europe was more organized and more violent than thought.

"Ancient DNA evidence is telling the story that some of them came from populations related to modern Poland or Russia and some related to modern Italy"

Item starts from 15:00:
http://www.sciencemag.org/podcast/podcast-battling-it-out-bronze-age-letting-go-orcas-and-evolving-silicon-based-life

OMG, so we have "Poles against Italians" here... :biggrin1:

People who believe in conspiracy theories will have a lot of fun!

Kadłubek wrote that "ancient Poles" fought against the Romans:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wincenty_Kad%C5%82ubek

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krakus


Krakus, Krak or Grakch was a legendary Polish prince, king and founder of Kraków, the ruler of the tribe of Lechitians (Poles). Krakus is also credited with building Wawel Castle and slaying the Wawel Dragon by feeding him a dead sheep full of sulfur. The latter is how Krak the cobbler became Krakus the prince, and later king.[1] The first recorded mention of Krakus, then spelled Grakch, is in the Chronica seu originale regum et principum Poloniae from 1190. He is also said to have defeated armies of the Roman Empire, which were attacking from the south.[2]

B)

authun
03-26-2016, 02:25 PM
They are saying that some of them resemble modern populations of Scandinavia and/or Poland (i.e. northern Europeans). We moderns are descended from the ancients, not the other way around. :)

Some appear to want to return to their earlier leaf eating days.

Tomenable
03-26-2016, 02:32 PM
Some appear to want to return to their earlier leaf eating days.

I would definitely try some roast mammoth! ;)

authun
03-26-2016, 02:48 PM
How would they ?
If you're dead you're dead. Doesn't matter if your side eventually won or lost
Especially if these guys are professional soldiers from far and wide; they are probably not neatly delineated genetically


Some of the wounds like the skull, show that the cause of death was a bronze arrow head whilst others were killed by flint arrow heads:

http://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline_small__3_4/public/Sch%C3%A4del6-innen.jpg?itok=VEFIDIts

http://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline_colwidth__4_3/public/images/Abb.%2002.jpg?itok=AmNnab69&timestamp=1458673112

Also, and of particular interest, are the tin 'rings'. Tin oxidises quickly on exposure to air but with the addition of a small amount of lead, it can be kept in 'ingots', or rings, to be used with copper later. Some of these people were 'tin' magnates as it were.

http://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline_colwidth__16_9/public/ThingsTheyCarried.jpg?itok=-cJxZsG0&timestamp=1458684086


When they get an overview of the battlefield, and there is a lot still to be found, the first bone, the one with the flint arrowhead embedded, was found in 1996, they may be able to see a picture which differentiates the groups by the use of metal/flint. It may not be possible, but it is something they will investigate.

Tomenable
03-26-2016, 03:45 PM
Listen here (20:40 - 21:20):

http://www.sciencemag.org/podcast/podcast-battling-it-out-bronze-age-letting-go-orcas-and-evolving-silicon-based-life#t=15m00s

"(...) What does the archaeological evidence say about where they came from? So from isotopic evidence, chemical composition of the teeth, It looks like some of those people came from the local area, but some of them also came from maybe hundreds of kilometers to the south and east. One archaeologist compared this to Homer actually, and to the attack on Troy, where lots of different warbands came together to fight in one place, a very long way. Ancient DNA evidence is just in the beginning stages of analyses, but the ancient DNA is telling a similar story, that these folks came from pretty far afield and were related to different modern populations, some of them look like modern Poles or Russians, and some of them look like modern Italians. So really, really different in terms of the DNA as well. (...)"

So isotopic evidence shows that some of them came from the east (in addition to those who came from the south).

And I suppose that those genetically similar to modern Poles, were not locals, but those who came from the east.

Perhaps they came from areas of the Lusatian culture ??? Or did they come from areas even farther east ???

Question is, how far east from Tollense did genetically Polish-like population live at that time.

Tomenable
03-26-2016, 04:17 PM
Map of the region showing rivers and archaeological cultures of the Bronze Age:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6_3WXnTHY3w/VYLvMCa21FI/AAAAAAAAEkg/w8fBuqkOE4k/s640/bronze%2Bage%2Bbattle%2Bmap.jpg

Scandinavian-like warriors could be locals from the Nordic Bronze Age culture:

http://www.dandebat.dk/dk-images/421p.jpg

corner
03-26-2016, 04:22 PM
When they get an overview of the battlefield, and there is a lot still to be found, the first bone, the one with the flint arrowhead embedded, was found in 1996, they may be able to see a picture which differentiates the groups by the use of metal/flint. It may not be possible, but it is something they will investigate.Yes, there must be many variables - like was bronze used by both sides, or only one, or did the archers have a quiver of both flint and bronze-tipped arrows? It would be interesting to know the time/resources needed to make flint arrow heads compared to bronze arrow heads - eg. the 'cost' per unit for the era. I imagine bronze work would need an organised industrial set-up in a static settlement with specialist equipment, whereas flint can be knapped anywhere if you have the skills and the raw material. Both materials look to do the job though.

authun
03-26-2016, 04:47 PM
Both materials look to do the job though.

Remarkably well. The flint arrowhead is embedded 2cm into the bone.

I don't know if there is flint locally but the source can be identified. Near to where I live are the greatest concentrations of mesolithic flint finds in Britain, yet there is no local flint. It comes apparantly from the Yorkshire Wolds. Most of the flint is found by way of knappings, the pieces chipped off. They are found by hearths and the implication is that the area was a summer hunting gound for hunter gatherers who lived by the coast and came to this area for furs, hides, bone and antler as well as meat.

In a similar way, they should be able to analyse the finds and the locality. My guess however is that flint was used by the poorer members of each group and bronze by the wealthier. I think the suggestion of controlling the river crossing is key. The tin producing area in the Erzbebirge further south supplied northern Germany and southern Scandinavia and the island of Gotland via two routes and the western route was the more heavily militarised, at least judging by the number of bronze age Griffzungen swords:

http://www.braasch-megalith.de/docu0250-Griffzungen-Europa.jpg


There is also a division which might be suggested by a difference in cremation practices, the House Urns and the Face Urns:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Hausurne_Neu_K%C3%B6nigsaue.jpg/220px-Hausurne_Neu_K%C3%B6nigsaue.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Gesichtsurnen.jpg/240px-Gesichtsurnen.jpg

Tomenable
03-26-2016, 07:10 PM
Location of the Tollense River Valley:

http://history.sf-fandom.com/files/2011/05/tollense-01.jpg

The battle took place around 1250 BC (according to radiocarbon dating).

It was apparently a time of major upheavals in many parts of Europe:

"1200 BC - War, Climate Change & Cultural Catastrophe - ABSTRACTS":

http://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/1200BC_abstracts.pdf

Tomenable
03-26-2016, 07:45 PM
Translated quote:

"Fantastic discovery!

In several next days from now I will try to search through available reports, especially seeking information or photographs concerning military items and equipment found at Tollense battlefield. And these military items can be of key importance assuming, that the dating of the site to period BrD or maybe III OEB in chronology by Montelius is correct. I am especially interested in melee weapons.

First of all, we are talking here about a period in which Tumulus cultures were being replaced by Urnfield cultures. It was also the beginning of a revolution in military technology, associated with the beginnings of European swords which could be used for both cutting and stabbing. The question is, were those swords - likely of Reutlingen type - present there? Theoretically it is a bit too far to the north of territories until now considered as their place of origin, but considering the scale of this battle, I would not be surprised. Especially, that some single specimen have been found even in Southern Scandinavia. If we accept the date of 1250 BC, the age is correct.

Another issue are evident climate changes. Climate changes, which in the end culminated in Southern Europe in what is known from written sources as migrations of the Sea Peoples. Today we have no doubts, that what we know as the Sea Peoples was just the last episode of large-scale population movements. Perhaps now we have discovered one of the first episodes of that process. I have always been suggesting that those population movements had originated in areas of modern Czech Republic or Germany. So if what I suppose gets confirmed, it will be an argument supporting my theory. If I find some more details, I will of course share."

Originally posted on this forum (link below) by user Marthinus, who is a professional archaeologist:

Link (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.historycy.org%2Findex.php%3Fsho wtopic%3D139756%26view%3Dfindpost%26p%3D1533087)

Tomenable
03-26-2016, 11:56 PM
IIRC, Urnfield originated in Slovakia and North-Eastern Hungary, the Piliny culture.

From those initial areas Urnfield later expanded to the west and to the north-west.

Tomenable
04-16-2016, 11:21 AM
On 23.09.2009 they informed that they lacked money to investigate aDNA and isotopes from Tollense battlefield:

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/massaker-an-der-tollense-bronzezeit-gemetzel-macht-archaeologen-ratlos-a-650639-2.html

"(...) Doch wer sich da so blutig bekämpfte, wissen die Forscher nicht. Für eine Strontium-Isotopenanalyse der gefundenen Zähne, die Informationen zur Herkunft der Opfer geben könnte, fehlte bisher das Geld. Auch umfangreichere DNA-Tests gibt es noch nicht. Mit ihnen würden sich eventuelle Verwandtschaftsverhältnisse klären lassen. Immerhin hoffen die Forscher nach ersten Voruntersuchungen darauf, diese Untersuchungen noch anstellen zu können. Brauchbares DNA-Material, so sagen sie, ist jedenfalls vorhanden (...)".

K33
10-23-2017, 07:57 PM
As David has noted (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/10/tollense-valley-bronze-age-battle.html), preliminary DNA results (although no y-dna yet!) from the Tollense Battle site have been released. Most participants appeared to be "broadly North European", although slightly WHG-shifted vs modern N Euros. f3 showed the main cluster was most closely related to modern Poles, Austrians, and Scots.

Outliers included one Neolithic genome (WEZ16) that was recovered from a gravesite near the battle-- basically autosomally an LBK regular, clustering with modern Sardinia. But there was 1 outlier (WEZ54) among the Tollense warriors who seemed to fall around what looks like modern South France -- an LBK/Beaker/CW hybrid of some sort basically.

The full paper (free pdf) is available here: https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de/theses/frontdoor.php?source_opus=100001279&la=en

The PCA makes the core samples seem more "southern shifted" relative to the formal stats which indicate a stronger N Euro preference...

https://i.imgur.com/cUElVgB.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/yWmfqiJ.jpg