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View Full Version : L11(xU106xP312) in question



FredH
03-31-2016, 02:52 PM
We find mainly U106 (or S21 ) and P312 (or S116) downstream of L11 (or S127) and the reminder L11 (xU106xP312), or people who are L11+ but P312- & U106-, represent just 1 to 2 percent averaged over all Europe but we can see that the L11(xU106xP312) is far to be uniform over Europe, we see some particular areas where the L11(xU106xP312) are found with significant % like in Portugal, in Southern Swiss and Rheinland Germany, Baltic and Black Sea coast but significantly nothing in North of France, Netherland, place shared both by P312 & U106. How is it explainable? It 's look like the result of recent and rapid migration events like the so called barbarian invasions instead of an old slow peopling event of Europe otherwise we should have the old 3 groups intermixed every where at almost the same ratio evenly distributed even if the data are sparsed. Here is a draft map representating the L11(xU106xP312) zone in Europe.8527

Helgenes50
03-31-2016, 03:23 PM
We find mainly U106 (or S21 ) and P312 (or S116) downstream of L11 (or S127) and the reminder L11 (xU106xP312), or people who are L11+ but P312- & U106-, represent just 1 to 2 percent averaged over all Europe but we can see that the L11(xU106xP312) is far to be uniform over Europe, we see some particular areas where the L11(xU106xP312) are found with significant % like in Portugal, in Southern Swiss and Rheinland Germany, Baltic and Black Sea coast but significantly nothing in North of France, Netherland, place shared both by P312 & U106. How is it explainable? It 's look like the result of recent and rapid migration events like the so called barbarian invasions instead of an old slow peopling event of Europe otherwise we should have the old 3 groups intermixed every where at almost the same ratio evenly distributed even if the data are sparsed. Here is a draft map representating the L11(xU106xP312) zone in Europe.8525

On your map, the Cotentin and le pays de Caux are darker, what is not surprising, but where did you find your data, in the different projects of FTDNA ?

rms2
03-31-2016, 03:44 PM
He cites Busby et al as the source of his data on the first of those maps, and Busby is part of the name of the thumbnail map, as well.

VinceT
03-31-2016, 03:51 PM
We find mainly U106 (or S21 ) and P312 (or S116) downstream of L11 (or S127) and the reminder L11 (xU106xP312), or people who are L11+ but P312- & U106-, represent just 1 to 2 percent averaged over all Europe but we can see that the L11(xU106xP312) is far to be uniform over Europe, we see some particular areas where the L11(xU106xP312) are found with significant % like in Portugal, in Southern Swiss and Rheinland Germany, Baltic and Black Sea coast but significantly nothing in North of France, Netherland, place shared both by P312 & U106. How is it explainable? It 's look like the result of recent and rapid migration events like the so called barbarian invasions instead of an old slow peopling event of Europe otherwise we should have the old 3 groups intermixed every where at almost the same ratio evenly distributed even if the data are sparsed. Here is a draft map representating the L11(xU106xP312) zone in Europe.http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8525&stc=1

It appears that L11(xU106xP312) is represented by multiple smaller subclades, S1194 being one of them, and FGC37082 etc. being another. There could be others that have not yet been discovered and identified. The latest phylogeny is posted at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/results

A similar phenomenon exists immediately under both P312 and U106, each of which have a few large dominant subclades which had early growth advantages, but also several much smaller subclades which experienced extended restrictive bottlenecks.

FredH
03-31-2016, 03:52 PM
On your map, the Cotentin and le pays de Caux are darker, what is not surprising, but where did you find your data, in the different projects of FTDNA ?
My source is Busby Data Base:
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.figures-only
there is an excel table. But be cautious this is different ways to map the data. If you looked closely to the data, we see that the big issue is why L11xU106 xP312 are located at very distant places mainly in Portugal , Souther Swiss- Rheinland, Baltic coast and Black Sea coast with nothing in North of France and Netherland basicaly where the Frank tribes were located.

FredH
03-31-2016, 04:10 PM
It appears that L11(xU106xP312) is represented by multiple smaller subclades, S1194 being one of them, and FGC37082 etc. being another. There could be others that have not yet been discovered and identified. The latest phylogeny is posted at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/results

A similar phenomenon exists immediately under both P312 and U106, each of which have a few large dominant subclades which had early growth advantages, but also several much smaller subclades which experienced extended restrictive bottlenecks.
L11xU106xP312 is mainly represented by CTS4528 (around 80% of this subgroup). CTS4528 age is the same age as U106 and P312 (around 5000 years ). The problem is to know when these different peopling of Europe took place. The L11* distribution looks like very much to the different german tribes migrations during the 4th-5th centuries from Scandinavia to Iberia either by the Rhein in the case of the Suebi , Burgundian or from a step along the Black Sea coast for the Goths according to written sources.

Lugus
03-31-2016, 06:02 PM
L11xU106xP312 is mainly represented by CTS4528 (around 80% of this subgroup). CTS4528 age is the same age as U106 and P312 (around 5000 years ). The problem is to know when these different peopling of Europe took place. The L11* distribution looks like very much to the different german tribes migrations during the 4th-5th centuries from Scandinavia to Iberia either by the Rhein in the case of the Suebi , Burgundian or from a step along the Black Sea coast for the Goths according to written sources.

At least in Portugal and actually also in Spain L11 has the wrong distribution for that. In Portugal it seems to be too uniformly spread, which points to an old presence. It is also less dense where the Suebi settled of all places (north of the Douro river and in Galicia). The Goths (aka as inVisigoths ;)) were hardly in Portugal.

I could speculate that L11 corresponds quite well to the known territory of the Lusitanians. It's also interesting how the Lisbon peninsula stands out with less L11 than the rest of the country.

FredH
04-01-2016, 07:00 AM
At least in Portugal and actually also in Spain L11 has the wrong distribution for that. In Portugal it seems to be too uniformly spread, which points to an old presence. It is also less dense where the Suebi settled of all places (north of the Douro river and in Galicia). The Goths (aka as inVisigoths ;)) were hardly in Portugal.

I could speculate that L11 corresponds quite well to the known territory of the Lusitanians. It's also interesting how the Lisbon peninsula stands out with less L11 than the rest of the country.
Apparently, the Suebi and then the Visigoths were also in Lusitania. The data from Valverde 2015 are very interesting(http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/suppinfo/ejhg2015114s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/abs/ejhg2015114a.html) .
here are the figures for L11(xU106,xP312):
8544 the study confirm the high presence of L11* (alias L11xU106xP312) (9%) in Portugal without detail. We note higher value in Cantabria North of Spain but nothing in Asturias next to Cantabria. High figures of P312 every where is a sign of old presence but it's not the case of U106 & L11*, the L11*/U106 ratio is interesting. For instance in Galicia there is more U106 than L11* , it's the opposite in Cantabria they are all absent in Asturias.